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Spoilers With Speculation


SueB
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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(edited)
35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I really couldn't understand why Sam would say the BMoL were changing the world because, seriously, nothing they did in the episode seemed world changing.

I think what Sam is buying into is the premise more than the people saying it.  A world without monsters would be pretty appealing to anyone.   I don't think he trusts Mick and Co. but is under the impresssion he can work for them in his own way.  He can use their toys and intel but not actually work for them.  (if that makes sense).

I just hope that if it is Sam's plan to use them, and take them down he lets Dean in on it, and not just spout the party line about how great it would be if they didn't have to hunt.

35 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Yeah, I definitely get the feeling Dean is playing his usual card of letting people underestimate him until it's too late.

I really hope we get to see this play out.   It's one of my favorite aspects.  More scenes like when Dean took out Lady Toni.

We are supposed to get an episode where Eileen comes back (the Deaf hunters from last year.  I can't remember the ep name).  I wonder if she might be a rogue hunter the Brits might go after.

Edited by ILoveReading
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50 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

I think they may use Lady Toni again although I have no proof.  I just thought it was odd when they introduced her that they made such a big deal about her kid. 

I hope you are wrong, but I have a bad feeling that you are correct.  

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6 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

 I don't think he trusts Mick and Co. but is under the impresssion he can work for them in his own way.  

I'm one of the few that's fed up with the BMOL and wants to get back to down and dirty hunting the Winchester Way.  I'm also crossing fingers this isn't another set up for tedious secrets and lies and Sam keeping things from Dean and the soap opera angst we had to put up with a couple of seasons ago. Been there, done that, didn't want the tshirt.

The intro of Mary could have been SO compelling.  Her reaction to her sons.  Her reaction to their formative years with John. You know.. actually talking with each other - the way Amara intended (I think?).  Mary was a gift after all.  We could have been privy to S&D's surprise and pride as they discovered their inherited hunting instincts came also from mum not just revenge fueled John.  Mom was a great hunter. Something to be proud of.  Instead they've made her distant, uncaring, unlikable and making stupid choices. 

And don't get me started on the Luci rerun or the Rosemary's Baby silliness.

I wish I could be as keen about the direction of season 12 as the rest of you.  At least the Js are not phoning it in.  When Dean said "Mary" instead of "Mom", it seriously stabbed me in the heart.

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10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

They lie all the time.  Why is Dean now having a problem with it? 

Perhaps because he doesn't have a GOOD lie?  I don't think he has a problem with lying, I just think he doesn't know what to say.  It's easy to pull the FBI badge and then proceed to do their job, as it's closely akin.  But.. apparently she SAW the Hell Hound so how do they chill her out without giving some bit of the monster-truth.  So, what non-'monsters are real' lie do they tell?  Invisible animal attack? Spontaneous body ripage? "Monster are real" would be easier.

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(edited)
19 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

They lie all the time.  Why is Dean now having a problem with it? 

That's a really weird clip. Maybe within context it will be different.

Dean has gone back and forth about lying to the VoTW in the past. 

I recall  in Nightshifter, Dean being really bothered about lying to Ronald because Ronald had actually figured out pretty close to the truth with it being "mandroids" instead of shapeshifters. Dean and Sam had words over it. Maybe it's something along those lines.

I guess to me it depends on why Dean is bothered in this case.

Edited by catrox14
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4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

That's a really weird clip. Maybe within context it will be different.

Dean has gone back and forth about lying to the VoTW in the past. 

I recall  in Nightshifter, Dean being really bothered about lying to Ronald because Ronald had actually figured out pretty close to the truth with it being "mandroids" instead of shapeshifters. Dean and Sam had words over it. Maybe it's something along those lines.

I guess to me it depends on why Dean is bothered in this case.

I can see that.  I wonder if Dean catches Sam in a lie at the start of the ep.  I can see that putting Dean on the defensive. 

Its hard to judge from a clip, but Dean still seems to be on edge like he was last ep.

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(edited)

IMO, Sam's last line in that conversation was extremely similar to Dean's line in the S9 episode when Cas banged the reaper who killed him and then Gadreel in Sam brought him back to life. Jensen's/Dean's delivery of it was just different(cuter) than JP's/Sam's here, IMO. I remember the line("I do that.") so clearly because of that delivery.

10 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Its hard to judge from a clip, but Dean still seems to be on edge like he was last ep.

IA.

Edited by Myrelle
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(edited)
10 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

IMO, Sam's last line in that conversation was extremely similar to Dean's line in the S9 episode when Cas banged the reaper who killed him and then Gadreel in Sam brought him back to life. Jensen's/Dean's delivery of it was just different(cuter) than JP's/Sam's here. I remember the line("I do that.") so clearly because of that delivery.

IA.

 

I think Dean's behaviour here reminds me a lot of episode ThinMan.   Dean seemed annoyed and irritated that whole ep, like he was on step away from exploding.  I was never sure if it was the the Mark of Cain or just being around The Ghostfacers.  Mostly likely it was a mixture of both.

Edited by ILoveReading
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3 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I can see that.  I wonder if Dean catches Sam in a lie at the start of the ep.  I can see that putting Dean on the defensive. 

Its hard to judge from a clip, but Dean still seems to be on edge like he was last ep.

That could be.

Yeah, I think Dean was not really saying what he meant at the end of The Raid. And he's bothered because he is lying to himself that he's okay with any of what she did.  I dunno. I don't think that episode ended with any kind of real detente, or maybe I just hope not.

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1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

They lie all the time.  Why is Dean now having a problem with it? 

I don't think it is the lie so much as that there is no case / no hunt so he can't see the point of going to talk to her. All they are there for is to try, by some means, to convince her she doesn't need to fear for her life. Sounds like Dean can't really see the point of going to see her when - as far as they are concerned at this point - the case is over.

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(edited)
16 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Of course he did. Sorry. 

Not sure this makes me feel better though. Another disappointing episode for me. Too much soppy Cas stuff and (though whole season suffers from same fault IMO) nowhere near enough focus on the brothers. And again not much for Dean to do. 

The impression I'm getting from everything released about the episode so far (promo, stills, scene) is that it's going to be very Dean and Crowley heavy. They were the only two to speak in the main promo and are featured in most of the stills. 

I think it's gonna be light to moderate Sam and probably very Cas light. He'll probably appear for one or two scenes and that's it. 

Edited by Wayward Son
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4 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

The impression I'm getting from everything released about the episode so far (promo, stills, scene) is that it's going to be very Dean and Crowley heavy. They were the only two to speak in the main promo and are featured in most of the stills. 

I think it's gonna be light to moderate Sam and probably very Cas light. He'll probably appear for one or two scenes and that's it. 

Sometimes the promo doesn't match the episode, so very little Sam and Cas in it doesn't really mean anything.  The promo for episode 10,9 made it look very mark of Cain heavy and in the end it was mostly about Claire.  The stuff they showed in the promo was basically five minutes of the entire episode.

Given that the CW account tweeted that a hellhound was after a Winchester, and the writer of the ep is Perez I'm guessing this will be Sam.

In the promo you can see the hellhound charge Sam.   I'm expecting more 11.17 part 2 while Dean and Crowley wander around lost in the woods,

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(edited)
20 minutes ago, SueB said:

@Wayward Son and @ILoveReading, is there some objective criteria (number of scenes, number of lines, number of minutes, etc...) that you rely upon to support your perspective?

For me a character light episode is one where their time on screen is rather limited, or the character has little importance to the overall plot of the week be that plot mytharc focused or a more introspective "lesson of the week".

My best guess is Cas' screen time is gonna be limited, as the synopsis suggests his interactions with the other mains will be limited, to non-existent, as he'll be off doing his own thing in a B, Kelly Klein related, plot. While I think Dean and Crowley will be the main focus of the Episodes A plot i.e. hellhound hunt.

I should clarify though that when I perdicted the episode will be light on Sam and Cas I was not speaking of it in the "bitch" vs "jerk" sense. There have always been episodes that focus particularly on Dean such as In the Beginning, or episodes more heavily focused on Sam like Sam Interrupted, or even episodes like Stuck In the Middle (With You) and Abandon All Hope that focus equally on the whole main cast. It goes back and forth as the story needs and I personally think Sam and Dean both get equal story time throughout the overall season.

I was just speculating that based on what we've seen so far that this week will be more focused on Dean and Crowley :). I wasn't complaining about that fact.

40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

Sometimes the promo doesn't match the episode, so very little Sam and Cas in it doesn't really mean anything.  The promo for episode 10,9 made it look very mark of Cain heavy and in the end it was mostly about Claire.  The stuff they showed in the promo was basically five minutes of the entire episode.

Given that the CW account tweeted that a hellhound was after a Winchester, and the writer of the ep is Perez I'm guessing this will be Sam.

In the promo you can see the hellhound charge Sam.   I'm expecting more 11.17 part 2 while Dean and Crowley wander around lost in the woods,

I guess we shall have to see :) . Like I said to @SueB above I wouldn't actually mind if it was heavier on Dean and Crowley! I think the two of them have a rather interesting dynamic!

Edited by Wayward Son
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It's the "little importance to the plot" that I find highly subjective. 

Personally, I find the promo guys at CW to be highly unreliable forecasters.  Now if it's a "Shaving People, Punting Things" video, I take that as a much more relevant promo. 

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19 minutes ago, SueB said:

It's the "little importance to the plot" that I find highly subjective. 

Personally, I find the promo guys at CW to be highly unreliable forecasters.  Now if it's a "Shaving People, Punting Things" video, I take that as a much more relevant promo. 

Fair enough, and of course at that point it's all speculation anyway. I guess we'll find out how accurate the promo, stills etc were tomorrow :)

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Press release for ep 12:16 Ladies Drink Free. Looks like there will be a 2 week hiatus after tomorrows ep.

Quote

“Ladies Drink Free” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

A WOLF IN THE NIGHT – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) let Mick Davies (guest star Adam Fergus) tag along on a case as they search for a werewolf. The three men run into Claire Novak (guest star Kathryn Love Newton), also working the hunt. However, the reunion is short lived after Claire is bitten and the brothers race to find a way to help her before she turns. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Meredith Glynn (#1216). Original airdate 3/30/2017.

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1 minute ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Press release for ep 12:16 Ladies Drink Free. Looks like there will be a 2 week hiatus after tomorrows ep.

 

1 minute ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

owever, the reunion is short lived after Claire is bitten and the brothers race to find a way to help her before she turns.

I have to say, I legit gasped when I read this. That is not a thing I was expecting at all.  Surely, Cas will be in a Claire episode.

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(edited)

This seems answer a couple of questions I had.  If there are secrets and lies its not more than one episode, and Dean allowed himself to be persuaded to work with the Brits.

Predictable and expected. 

Also, I'm guessing this is where the whole "not all monsters are bad" thing is going to come up.

Edited by ILoveReading
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9 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) let Mick Davies (guest star Adam Fergus) tag along on a case

I was more interested in this bit. Looks like Dean & Sam will be at least giving the BMoL a try by the next ep. I do wonder though if this will reveal their methods. Mick / Ketch would normally just kill Claire if she was bitten. Of course D&S will want to try to save her. So it promises an interesting clash of tactics

I really hope they cure Claire as I think for her to turn into a werewolf after every other tragic thing that has happened in her life would be too much.

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Welp.  Claire is bitten.  If we couldn't find a cure for Madison, Garth, college girl.... we need Cas.  And if he was there, this wouldn't be an issue.  So, no Cas.  Therefore, Claire is in trouble.  UNLESS the Brits have a solution. But they won't. Because they KILL monsters.

Yeah, those who were worried about Sam going darkside -- I just don't see it. 

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Just now, SueB said:

Yeah, those who were worried about Sam going darkside -- I just don't see it. 

I think it's too early to tell. I mean for me, unless he's taking the MoL down from the inside, he's already gone dark-ish...side. Mary, too.

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1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

I think it's too early to tell. I mean for me, unless he's taking the MoL down from the inside, he's already gone dark-ish...side. Mary, too.

I'm thinking "I'm in." is far too open-ended to declare 'darkside'.

and, because I'm in a mood... I'm going to quote myself and update the title -- it's definitely the two week, one week scenario I suggested as an alternative:

Quote

I'm going to offer an alternative schedule:

March 9 - 12.15 Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell
March 16 - some vampire diary repeat (March Madness conflict this week)
March 23 - repeat (March Madness conflict this week)
March 30 - 12.16 Ladie's Drink Free - Claire story
April 6 - 12. 17 The British Invasion - the episode I think that sets up the rest of the season
April 13- Break (times with spring break)
April 20- 12. 18 (BMoL)
April 27- 12. 19 (Devil Spawn)
May 4 - 12.20
May 11- 12.21
May 18 - 12.22 Pentultimate
May 25 - 12.23 Season Finale

*update

I like this schedule best because it recognizes Spring Break as a possible ratings sink-hole and avoids it. 

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35 minutes ago, SueB said:

March 16 - some vampire diary repeat (March Madness conflict this week)

This part, I'm not sure about, because the Vampire Diaries' series finale is this Friday, March 10th. But maybe it's a re-airing of the finale?

59 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:
Quote

“Ladies Drink Free” — (8:00-9:00 p.m. ET) (Content Rating TBD) (HDTV)

A WOLF IN THE NIGHT – Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) let Mick Davies (guest star Adam Fergus) tag along on a case as they search for a werewolf. The three men run into Claire Novak (guest star Kathryn Love Newton), also working the hunt. However, the reunion is short lived after Claire is bitten and the brothers race to find a way to help her before she turns. Amyn Kaderali directed the episode written by Meredith Glynn (#1216). Original airdate 3/30/2017.

 

Really interesting episode description.

I'm wondering about Mick tagging along. Will this be his first ever hunting trip? Maybe after helping Sam with the Alpha Vamp, he's got a taste for it? It would be funny if the Winchesters manage to lure Mick over to their side, lol. They might be better at brainwashing than the BMOL is.

Not excited to see Claire. I just don't care much about the character, and the actress really doesn't do anything for me. I want to find Claire Novak interesting or at least likeable but I don't. Not sure why really, I just don't.

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1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

This seems answer a couple of questions I had.  If there are secrets and lies its not more than one episode, and Dean allowed himself to be persuaded to work with the Brits.

Predictable and expected

Yup. The only question left for me now is will Dean be apologizing at the end of this week's episode, too?

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(edited)

Random note: this is only the fourth episode this season that hasn't starred at least one of Cas/Crowley/Mary

@catrox14

Quote

I have to say, I legit gasped when I read this. That is not a thing I was expecting at all.  Surely, Cas will be in a Claire episode.

Unless they filmed a scene in advance during the filming of this weeks episode then he won't be. According to Jessica (the girl who does the spoiler sheet) Misha was in LA while episodes 16 and 17 were being filmed.

Edited by Wayward Son
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6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

he's already gone dark-ish...side. Mary, too.

Sam has not remotely 'gone dark side'. The worst you can accuse him of so far is that he went to see his mother because she implied she was in danger or there was a major issue. While with her they were attacked and he saved as many people as he could. In doing do he killed an ancient monster. Then he expressed am interest in working with people who - as far as he knows (assuming he believes them about Toni which he has no reason not to (Mick saved him from her after all)) - have some highly effective tools and methods that have saved a lot of people and killed a lot of monsters but clearly need practical help. He committed himself to trying to persuade his brother to join them.

Now I agree it could potentially go either way, bit so far Sam is nowhere close to 'going dark side'. Mary's record is more sketchy because of her lying to the boys, using them without telling them the full story, stealing the Colt etc. But I still think her intentions are good even if her methods and honesty are questionable.

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I don't know what it is about sight gags but Jared and Jensen standing literally head and shoulders above the rest (in that picture) is funny to me.  

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You know what would make a good story?  If the BMoL were after witches, as well as monsters.  Which means Rowena.  I'd love if they had a huge, convoluted backstory.

Do Sam and Dean help their (occasional) ally?  Or is she still an enemy?

And the show could finally address the difference between magic user and witch.  It would crack me up if Rowena called Dean a witch.

Okie dokie, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

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(edited)
1 hour ago, Demented Daisy said:

You know what would make a good story?  If the BMoL were after witches, as well as monsters.  Which means Rowena.  I'd love if they had a huge, convoluted backstory.

Do Sam and Dean help their (occasional) ally?  Or is she still an enemy?

And the show could finally address the difference between magic user and witch.  It would crack me up if Rowena called Dean a witch.

Okie dokie, back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Witches...EWWWW!!!  Oh, yeah, that could work. ;)

BTW, I think the BMoL are after witches as well as monsters. I assume they're after everything supernatural... .

11 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Surely, Cas will be in a Claire episode.

Why? He wasn't in the last episode with Claire. I was under the impression Cass and Claire resolved their issues and it doesn't sound like this is a Cass-like problem.

11 hours ago, SueB said:

Welp.  Claire is bitten.  If we couldn't find a cure for Madison, Garth, college girl.... we need Cas.  And if he was there, this wouldn't be an issue.  So, no Cas.

I don't understand this, how would Cass solve the problem? It's not like angels can cure monsters, as far as I know.

Edited by DittyDotDot
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(edited)

This may be an unpopular opinion, I haven't really seen it discussed much to know, but I find it hard to believe the brothers would regard Claire as anything more than a casual acquaintance. I can understand Castiel being deeply invested in her fate as he feels obliged to fulfill his promise to Jimmy to keep her safe. I can also understand Jody being the one to truly love her as they've spent two years living together as a family and developing a bond in that time. But the brothers not so much... So if the episode has them acting overly dramatic / desperate to save her I'll probably end up rolling my eyes. 

 

21 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I don't understand this, how would Cass solve the problem? It's not like angels can cure monsters, as far as I know.

Me neither. I've seen the idea pop up in fanfiction, but as far as I can recall, the only known monster cures on the show are the mixture for curing vampirism and the demon cleansing ritual. Neither of which involved angels. I'd be curious to hear about it if we've forgotten something :)

Edited by Wayward Son
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(edited)
33 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Witches...EWWWW!!!  Oh, yeah, that could work. ;)

BTW, I think the BMoL are after witches as well as monsters. I assume they're after everything supernatural... .

Why? He wasn't in the last episode with Claire. I was under the impression Cass and Claire resolved their issues and it doesn't sound like this is a Cass-like problem.

I don't understand this, how would Cass solve the problem? It's not like angels can cure monsters, as far as I know.

Cas stopped Dean from turning into. Jefferson Starship.  I figure that as long as Claire is just bitten but hasn't physically turned/transformed (or fed), he could 'clear that up'. 

Edited by SueB
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5 minutes ago, SueB said:

Cas stopped Dean from turning into. Jefferson Starship.  I figure that as long as Claire is just bitten but hasn't physically turned/transformed (or fed), he could 'clear that up'. 

Ooh I'd forgotten about that. Probably due to the fact season 6 is one of my least favourite seasons. Thanks @SueB

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16 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

This may be an unpopular opinion, I haven't really seen it discussed much to know, but I find it hard to believe the brothers would regard Claire as anything more than a casual acquaintance. I can understand Castiel being deeply invested in her fate as he feels obliged to fulfill his promise to Jimmy to keep her safe. I can also understand Jody being the one to truly love her as they've spent two years living together as a family and developing a bond in that time. But the brothers not so much... So if the episode has them acting overly dramatic / desperate to save her I'll probably end up rolling my eyes. 

I'm usually concerned about people who mean a lot to the people I care about, so I can understand why they would considering that she was/is important to Cas and Jodi. I would find it OOC if they didn't care considering the lengths they've gone to save people they don't know much less the foster daughter of one of their best friends.

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13 minutes ago, SueB said:

Cas stopped Dean from turning into. Jefferson Starship.  I figure that as long as Claire is just bitten but hasn't physically turned/transformed (or fed), he could 'clear that up'. 

If angels can cure monsters...never mind... .

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9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

If angels can cure monsters...never mind... .

I was trying to imply it's only during a brief "not fully turned" time.  Not some random vamp who has been a vamp for 10 years.

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24 minutes ago, SueB said:

I was trying to imply it's only during a brief "not fully turned" time.  Not some random vamp who has been a vamp for 10 years.

I understood. Personally, I don't think this is why Cass isn't present in the episode is all I was getting at, I just decided not to get into a debate about it. Hence, the never mind.

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New to this site (refugee from imdb).  How does one REPLY to a particular post?  I find the train of thought all over the place, one posters say something and then further down someone else replies with a quote.  Is there a 'nesting' option as with imdb?  Sorry, this is probably in the wrong place.  Lots of great input and discussion, tho.  Love reading everyone's posts.

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4 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

New to this site (refugee from imdb).  How does one REPLY to a particular post?  I find the train of thought all over the place, one posters say something and then further down someone else replies with a quote.  Is there a 'nesting' option as with imdb?  Sorry, this is probably in the wrong place.  Lots of great input and discussion, tho.  Love reading everyone's posts.

Hi Pondlass. Remember me? A fellow IMDB refugee...

I asked this question the other day because I have struggled with it as it is so different to IMDB. In short - no you can't reply to a specific post or nest responses. So the way people seem to do it is to quote from the post they are replying to. Your notifications tell you if anyone has quoted you and you can click on the notification and go straight to their post. I am getting the hang of it but its a bug change from what we had got used to. Lots of aspects of the site are loads better though IMO. 

What I think would help would be if people started posts to discuss a particular aspect of an ep or spoiler etc they want to talk about rather than them getting lost in the big general threads on the latest ep or the generic spoiler thread. I asked the mods if it was ok to start new threads and they said it was fine, but it doesn't seem to be the done thing so I have been waiting until I am more familiar with the forum before I try it.

1 minute ago, Diane said:

Er.......nope I've got nothing. Anyone any idea what this is quoting from?

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1 minute ago, Diane said:

I get the distinct impression Dabb has an eclectic--and maybe poor--taste in music as I do. Poor guy! ;)

10 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

New to this site (refugee from imdb).  How does one REPLY to a particular post?  I find the train of thought all over the place, one posters say something and then further down someone else replies with a quote.  Is there a 'nesting' option as with imdb?  Sorry, this is probably in the wrong place.  Lots of great input and discussion, tho.  Love reading everyone's posts.

No nesting option. I prefer this layout, myself: the conversation seems to flow more freely this way and you can engage in multiple conversations at once. It is different, though, and does take a bit of getting used to.

There's a couple different options for quoting that will embed the poster you quoted into the quote and will also give the original poster a notification.

  • Use the quote icon at the bottom of the post. There's also a multiple quote icon that can be helpful if you want to quote multiple people without jumping down to the editor each time.
  • Highlight the part of the post you wish to respond to and click the "quote this" box that comes up.

You can also just copy, paste and use the quote function at the top of the editor, but that will not let anyone know who you quoted nor will it send out notifications.

Also, if you just want to get someone's attention, the @ function is very helpful. For instance, hello @Pondlass1, welcome to our nuthouse! ;)

Hope that helps.

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