Spoilers With Speculation

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, DittyDotDot said:

That was a misprint of some sort, Jim Michaels confirmed they have 23 episodes not long after that article came out.

Thanks!  I figured, if they have a writer listed for ep. 23, then they must have it on the schedule. :)

[catrox14]

Michaels must have been getting hammered about the number of episodes question because he put in the header of his Twitter account. LOL (It's 23 as others have already said)

[ahrtee]

6 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Michaels must have been getting hammered about the number of episodes question because he put in the header of his Twitter account. LOL (It's 23 as others have already said)

Well, I heard the 22-ep blurb and not the corrected 23-ep, so probably others thought the same thing and are asking, especially if the schedule is out showing Dabb writing ep. 23.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

Well, I heard the 22-ep blurb and not the corrected 23-ep, so probably others thought the same thing and are asking, especially if the schedule is out showing Dabb writing ep. 23.

Oh I know. I wasn't criticizing just noting that Michaels put in his Twitter profile which made me chuckle

[ahrtee]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

Oh I know. I wasn't criticizing just noting that Michaels put in his Twitter profile which made me chuckle

I didn't think it was a criticism, but I tend to want to explain myself even when it's not necessary.  I thought it was pretty funny, too!

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, ahrtee said:

I didn't think it was a criticism, but I tend to want to explain myself even when it's not necessary.  I thought it was pretty funny, too!

Okay. Good. I was worried I had ruffled feathers. :)

[SueB]

Quote

12.17 The British Invasion

Written by:  Brad Buckner and Eugenie Ross-Lemming

Director:  John F. Showalter

Filming Dates: February 6 - February 16 (no filming Monday 2/13 for Family Day (Canada))

Airdate: April 13

Castiel? No. Crowley? Yes. [Looks like possibly light on Sam and Dean.

Guest stars: Samantha Smith (Mary Winchester), David Haydn-Jones (Mr. Ketch), Courtney Ford (Kelly Kline), Mark Pellegrino (Lucifer), Ali Ahn (Dagon)

Looking at this one, I think that IF there is an attempt by the BMoL to take over the bunker -- PURE SPECULATION ON MY PART -- this would be the episode.

First, it's B-L, which means mytharc.  Second, it's overpacked because they have the BMoL AND DevilSpawn storyline.  Now overpacked is par for a B-L episode BUT, it's possible that Sam and Dean are busy chasing the DevilSpawn while Mary is somehow tied to the BMoL getting Bunker access.  Even Mary is not stupid enough to just let them in to ransack the place.  But she could be duped.  Third, Cas is theoretically not there.  Which, if he was, would have been involved in DevilSpawn story anyway -- but it shows an increased need for Sam and Dean to be both dealing with that issue.  

Yes, this is my worry stone.  Yes, I believe it'll all work out for the boys in the end. But I'm convinced the episode WILL result in pissing many off.  Because of it's relative timing in the schedule.

What we know for sure:
March 9 - 12.15 Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell
March 16 - some vampire diary repeat (March Madness conflict this week)
March 23 - repeat (March Madness conflict this week)
March 30 - tbd
April 6 - tbd
April 13- tbd
April 20- tbd
April 27- 12.19 (Devil Spawn)
May 4 - 12.20
May 11- 12.21
May 18 - 12.22 Pentultimate
May 25 - 12.23 Season Finale
Theses final 5 are traditionally not broken up.

Which gives us EP 16, 17, 18 -- or 3 episode for 4 weeks.  So either they take a 3 week break after 12.15 OR they take a two week break and then a one week break in April.  With a B-L 'mytharc--likely-cliffhanger-likely-to-piss-us-off' episode, AND Elementary thru High School Spring Break likely the week of 13 April....

I'm going to offer an alternative schedule:

March 9 - 12.15 Somewhere Between Heaven and Hell
March 16 - some vampire diary repeat (March Madness conflict this week)
March 23 - repeat (March Madness conflict this week)
March 30 - 12.16 title unknown - Claire story
April 6 - 12. 17 The British Invasion - the episode I think that sets up the rest of the season
April 13- Break (times with spring break)
April 20- 12. 18 (BMoL)
April 27- 12. 19 (Devil Spawn)
May 4 - 12.20
May 11- 12.21
May 18 - 12.22 Pentultimate
May 25 - 12.23 Season Finale
  

Either schedule works -- straight run after 6 April or a break during Spring Break.  I'm speculating they take a second one week break.  

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, SueB said:

Yes, this is my worry stone.  Yes, I believe it'll all work out for the boys in the end. But I'm convinced the episode WILL result in pissing many off.

Well, their episodes always piss people off, but I don't know why the BMoL would try to take the bunker? I mean, it's not like they can't just walk right in--Lady Toni did--and/or they couldn't have taken the bunker in the 50 years it sat empty. I would guess they feel like the information it holds is outdated and they have far more "superior" gadgets.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't move their base of operation to the bunker on Sam's suggestion?

Edited March 5, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[SueB]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, their episodes always piss people off, but I don't know why the BMoL would try to take the bunker? I mean, it's not like they can't just walk right in--Lady Toni did--and/or they couldn't have taken the bunker in the 50 years it sat empty. I would guess they feel like the information it holds is outdated and they have far more "superior" gadgets.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't move their base of operation to the bunker on Sam's suggestion?

I don't want them to poach useful stuff (like they did with the Colt) and take it back to England.

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

Well, their episodes always piss people off, but I don't know why the BMoL would try to take the bunker? I mean, it's not like they can't just walk right in--Lady Toni did--and/or they couldn't have taken the bunker in the 50 years it sat empty. I would guess they feel like the information it holds is outdated and they have far more "superior" gadgets.

However, I wouldn't be surprised if they don't move their base of operation to the bunker on Sam's suggestion?

I don't understand why they don't put a cloaking spell around the bunker like Magnus had for his lair. Seriously. Why has this not happened?

I'm going to lose my shit if they try to move the base into the bunker. That is the boys' home. Dean would lose his mind if he lost his new home to the BMOL.  I think Dean would rather blow it up than give it over to them.  Ugh. NOOOOOO.  I think I'd be more upset with Dean for allowing it than Sam for suggesting it.

LOL

[MysteryGuest]

I'll be super pissed if they mess with the Bunker.  I know it isn't everyone's favorite, but it's the only home they've had that isn't on wheels.  I can't imagine Sam offering up its use without Dean's approval, but if that happens...then we're back to season 8 character assassination, IMO.

Edited March 5, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[rue721]

I would be A-OK with the Winchesters losing the bunker. As long as Dean keeps his dead man's robe, anyway. That ancient thing is so gross, and it's hilarious to me that it's his preferred loungewear.

But anyway, I doubt that they will lose the bunker -- at least not without SPN replacing it with another similar set to use as the show's HQ, anyway. It's just too convenient for filming for them to trash, IMO.

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, rue721 said:

But anyway, I doubt that they will lose the bunker -- at least not without SPN replacing it with another similar set to use as the show's HQ, anyway. It's just too convenient for filming for them to trash, IMO.

Yeah, I wasn't implying they would lose the bunker, just that it would make logistic sense for the show to use it as base of operations for a couple episodes. Personally, I'd love it to get blown up, but I'm also aware that's probably never going to happen.

[Wynne88]

Quote

Even Mary is not stupid enough to just let them in to ransack the place.  

I'm not sure I agree with that, unfortunately.  Mary has drunk the Koolaid, and I think it they framed it as something that would help them rid the world of bad creatures, she would hold the door open for them, and just tell Sam and Dean that it was a tough decision, but technically it doesn't belong just to them.

[bozodegama]

Did you guys see Sam's face when they showed him The Colt in the BMOL headquarters?  He was crying, way more emotional than Sam ever is.  I think he felt totally betrayed by Mary and the BMOL. buy mainly Mary.  There's no way he's going to join them behind Dean's back, imo, after they betrayed and tortured him.  I mean really, who the hell, Mary aside, would trust the BMOL.  You'd have to be pretty stupid and the Winchester boys are too smart for that. imo            

[Myrelle]

On ‎3‎/‎3‎/‎2017 at 0:38 PM, ILoveReading said:

I am looking forward to Dean and Crowley scenes.  I've missed the two of them together.  Someone asked if Dean and Crowley's partnership was over at a con and Mark said something about watching the rest of the season.  I figured he was trolling as he often does. (Anyone whose ever seen a Mark Sheppard Con panel knows that not a complaint). But good to see he was telling the truth.

Plus, the glasses are back. 

Just saw the promo for the next episode and I'm SO! happy to see Dean and Crowley together again. I love that dynamic so much. And Crowley sounds happy, too. If they find out, I doubt the Brits will  like it, though.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Did you guys see Sam's face when they showed him The Colt in the BMOL headquarters?  He was crying, way more emotional than Sam ever is.  I think he felt totally betrayed by Mary and the BMOL. buy mainly Mary.  There's no way he's going to join them behind Dean's back, imo, after they betrayed and tortured him.  I mean really, who the hell, Mary aside, would trust the BMOL.  You'd have to be pretty stupid and the Winchester boys are too smart for that. imo            

I thought that was a strange moment.

I couldn't figure out honestly why Sam had tears in his eyes at that moment. It made me wonder if the editing of that scene was wonky.  Or if that was some Jared emotion bleeding through.

It seemed to me the tears should have welled AFTER Mary told him she stole the Colt and he put all of it together.  But the tears came as soon as he touched it which came before Mary's confesssion. 

My head!canon has it this way :

Sam opens the box, sees the Colt, is shocked, THEN asks Mick where he got it. Mary confesses, and then he picks it up with tears in his eyes because it's the Colt and it's him realizing just what Mary's lies nearly cost them.

[DittyDotDot]

10 minutes ago, bozodegama said:

Did you guys see Sam's face when they showed him The Colt in the BMOL headquarters?  He was crying, way more emotional than Sam ever is.  I think he felt totally betrayed by Mary and the BMOL. buy mainly Mary.  There's no way he's going to join them behind Dean's back, imo, after they betrayed and tortured him.  I mean really, who the hell, Mary aside, would trust the BMOL.  You'd have to be pretty stupid and the Winchester boys are too smart for that. imo            

I really don't get the vibe Sam trusts them exactly nor do I think he'll be working with them behind Dean's back. Like I said in the episode thread, I think Sam--and Mary--see the BMoL as as tools to be used. I also think Sam and Mary think they have the experience the stuffed shirts don't seem to, so they feel like they have some sort of control. Personally, I think they're naive, but I don't know if I'd say stupid quite yet given that they don't know all the things I know...yet.

However, I've been saying for years they don't need the lies and obfuscation between Sam and Dean because they're adults, if Sam wants to work with the BMoL--for whatever reason--he should be able to. And, if Dean doesn't, he should be allowed to bow out. They can still work together, but also can work apart too.

[ILoveReading]

7 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

Just saw the promo for the next episode and I'm SO! happy to see Dean and Crowley together again. I love that dynamic so much. And Crowley sounds happy, too. If they find out, I doubt the Brits will  like it, though.

I'll be interested to see the dynamic between and Crowley after the whole Gavin thing.  Is Crowley going to be holding a grudge?

 

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

However, I've been saying for years they don't need the lies and obfuscation between Sam and Dean because they're adults, if Sam wants to work with the BMoL--for whatever reason--he should be able to. And, if Dean doesn't, he should be allowed to bow out. They can still work together, but also can work apart too.

This is the direction I hope they'll go.  I don't want to see Dean basically be made to work with people he doesn't trust just to keep the peace.  I've been enjoying this Dean who stands up for himself and I want to see it continue.  My biggest worry is that Dean is going to backslide to just doing whatever Sam and Mary ask because he's back to middle/peacekeeper role.  Or worse Sam pulling out the "stop being bossy card." and Dean agreeing because he needs to "treat Sam like an adult." 

Sam and Dean are two different people with different outlooks on life. Dean sees hunting a little more like Ketch. (Surface comparison here) by being down, dirty and in the trenches.  Sam, like is more like Mick, a co-ordinate effort.  Since we know they aren' going to split up Sam and Dean for multiple episodes a good way to make this work would be for Sam to take a more Bobby like role, but gathering intel for them rather than going on missions.  They obviously suck at research.  That can be done by computer, and Sam can still join Dean on hunts.

Neither brother would be in the right or wrong here. The Brits are saving lives, the disagreement is mostly the best way to go about this.   Mass extinctions which will lead to some monsters and that don't deserve it dying, vs one at a time and increasing the risk to ordinary people. 

I don't think there is a black and white, easy answer here because method one leads to innocent people getting caught in the crossfire (and probably more than we think).

[Myrelle]

I'm sure that the Winchesters are going to find out about the killings of "witnesses"(if not the soldiers, than others that stumble into the picture)-not sure, if they'll ever find out about the psychic girl, but probably her, too-but even just killing all monsters just because they're "monsters" cannot fly with either of the brothers, IMO-not if they're going to keep that character growth for both of them intact anyway. And for those Winchesters who might still waver regardless of the good  monster argument, the killing of witnesses to what the Brits do should be enough to make all of them see that the Brits have to either be reformed or be stopped  in their tracks because that's "monstrous", too-just on a human level and we've seen those types of "monsters" on this show before-although they've been focused on less. But lest we forget, this is Dabb of Bloodlines fame running the show now.

And while it could presently appear to some of the Winchesters that the Brit way could and should be embraced, that can't and shouldn't hold water when they DO find out about the killings that have up to now remained hidden and unbeknownst to them. And there IS some in-canon argument for Dean remaining distrustful of them-his gut or "instinct". It's been shown a number of times that Dean sometimes goes strictly with his gut, and this, even when the supposed "facts" make things appear to be copacetic to others. 

I didn't like Sam's look when he said to Mick to give him some time. He looked entirely too sure of himself when he said that, IMO-which is why this time, I'd like to see Dean not waver for anything or anyone and to stay true to his own choice/decision to not trust the Brits and not work with them. Arguments can always be made for why he should or would and canon can even back them up, but if Dabb is really going with everyone taking the more adult route of everyone's choice/decision being respected, then Dean should not be forced or coerced through the writing and/or the storytelling into caving to anyone's arguments or manipulations-and not even for the short term. Not even Sam's.

I DO recall an interview where Dabb said that a large part of the storytelling this season would focus on what each character truly wants out of the hunting life that they all now know they're embroiled in, for better or worse. I think it was even brought up how each Winchester felt-Mary feels she wants her kids to have the choice of being "normal" while they're still young enough to enjoy it(or some such thing), Sam wants a combo of hunting and normal(again, paraphrasing here), and Dean just wants to go down swinging/fighting. These can all be viewed as individual, adult choices and, as such, should be respected by each of the adults involved-again, if that's what Dabb's broad aim and view for the storytelling is this season-even Dean's, which would, of course, not sit well with Mary or Sam or make them especially happy/accepting of it at all.

We'll see where it all goes, I guess.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Myrelle

[ILoveReading]

43 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I didn't like Sam's look when he said to Mick to give him some time. He looked entirely too sure of himself when he said that, IMO-which is why this time, I'd like to see Dean not waver for anything or anyone and to stay true to his own choice/decision to not trust the Brits and not work with them. Arguments can always be made for why he should or would and canon can even back them up, but if Dabb is really going with everyone taking the more adult route of everyone's choice/decision being respected, then Dean should not be forced or coerced through the writing and/or the storytelling into caving to anyone's arguments or manipulations-and not even for the short term. Not even Sam's.

 

This is where my main worry with the story line is.  Mary wanted Dean to respect her, Sam will want Dean to respect him and that has to extend from both Mary and Sam towards Dean too.

It's why in regards to this storyline the bothers being on opposite sides wouldn't bother me.  Because unless your going to make Dean jump on board, there is no other way to go out it.  There has to be some conflict.    If it feels organic to the storyline, rather than just contrived angst, I don't mind it so much and can make for some good TV.   Even if they are opposed they don't have to be enemies to each maintain their point of view. 

I read that Jensen mentioned that the whole not all monsters are bad comes up.  I'm really hoping that this is what Dean's scene with Mick is about.  That Dean is maintaining his ground about not siding with them for that reason.

Of course, the easiest way to deal with it is to have Sam present a plan that they should take them down from the inside and to protect their mother.  

Edited March 6, 2017 by ILoveReading

[catrox14]

Quote

Sam and Dean are two different people with different outlooks on life. Dean sees hunting a little more like Ketch. (Surface comparison here) by being down, dirty and in the trenches.  Sam, like is more like Mick, a co-ordinate effort.  Since we know they aren' going to split up Sam and Dean for multiple episodes a good way to make this work would be for Sam to take a more Bobby like role, but gathering intel for them rather than going on missions.  They obviously suck at research.  That can be done by computer, and Sam can still join Dean on hunts.

I worry that Sam becoming the new Bobby will keep Dean in the role of No book lernin'/dumb!Dean/daddy's blunt little instrument role. I don't mean fandom perception per se but that the writers will have a reason to keep Dean in that narrow box. Dean is NOT averse to reading and research. He started out in the show as the guy who carried a newspaper around with him looking for cases and used microfiche,Dewey decimal system, John's journal and the internet for research. He has a mind for symbols.

Yes, I know Dean is mechanically/engineering minded but I don't know that show will allow him that kind of problem solving if Sam and BMOL have all the gadgets. They COULD have Dean be in charge of gadget building I guess.

But honestly, I'm not interested in SPN becoming the same kind of show as Arrow or the Flash with a base that has a team working out of it. With Sam being assigned the role of bookish nerd/tech researcher and Dean being assigned the role of warrior /weapons/gadget man. Nope. Those boys have their leanings but they are basically 100% cross trained when the show bothers to remember this.

I don't want the boys becoming to too "normalized" . I love their dips into mainstream life, like a visit to L. A. and to a funeral in the burbs of Massachusetts.  I love that they can fit in but only to a point. I don't want them really formally joining a formal organization. I love that they live in the MoL bunker primarily out of convenience rather than having such great pride in being legacies. I love that Dean made it his home but it's not because he's all "YAY MoL, wooo"...but more like, "Life owed us a good thing and a place to rest our heads and dammit I'm taking full advantage of this"...like the showers and Dean's dead guy robe. 

But that's just me.

Edited March 6, 2017 by catrox14

[Myrelle]

40 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

It's why in regards to this storyline the bothers being on opposite sides wouldn't bother me.  Because unless your going to make Dean jump on board, there is no other way to go out it.  There has to be some conflict.    If it feels organic to the storyline, rather than just contrived angst, I don't mind it so much and can make for some good TV.   Even if they are opposed they don't have to be enemies to each maintain their point of view.

Or harbor any bad feelings or ill will whatsoever towards each other either. This would truly be something different, IMO. And it could show a leap in character growth all around and like none we've ever seen before while still maintaining the familial bond. But I still don't think that these writers will chance it. The status quo and the always stick to the blueprint way concerning any Winchester familial relationship is what we always wind up with regardless of the story being told, IMO.

We'll likely know by this time next week, though; so there's that.

Edited March 6, 2017 by Myrelle

[AwesomO4000]

8 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But honestly, I'm not interested in SPN becoming the same kind of show as Arrow or the Flash with a base that has a team working out of it. With Sam being assigned the role of bookish nerd/tech researcher and Dean being assigned the role of warrior /weapons/gadget man. Nope. Those boys have their leanings but they are basically 100% cross trained when the show bothers to remember this.

I agree. Besides I don't like the implication that all of a sudden Sam would be okay with just finding cases and researching and then sending Dean out to hunt with other people - especially people they barely know - as his back up. Sam and Dean back up each other. They understand how the other one hunts and each others' strengths and weaknesses. To me, the implication of a "research team" and a "soldier team" is that the soldier team would be somehow more "expendable" - especially with how the BMoL seem to operate and their general attitude towards hunters... of which Sam is well aware. I would consider it compromising Sam's character if Sam would even consider something like that - even before they find anything out about the BMoL's killing of innocent people.

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

And while it could presently appear to some of the Winchesters that the Brit way could and should be embraced, that can't and shouldn't hold water when they DO find out about the killings that have up to now remained hidden and unbeknownst to them.

For me, I don't think it should appear to almost anyone that the Brit way should be embraced. Whether it's the tried and true cliche that if it's too good to be true, it probably is, or the fact that the last few episodes exposed the BMoL as completely incompetent. So if it stands as is with Sam's acceptance, I'll consider it compromising Sam's character in order to do so. The writing would be turning him into someone who is naively buying what's being sold... and considering he's learned this lesson enough times - the latest just last season - and in no way should be naive at all about this case, I'd consider this a total dumbing down of or at least a regression of his character if this happens. I won't consider it organic to the story at all.

1 hour ago, Myrelle said:

And there IS some in-canon argument for Dean remaining distrustful of them-his gut or "instinct". It's been shown a number of times that Dean sometimes goes strictly with his gut, and this, even when the supposed "facts" make things appear to be copacetic to others. 

I don't mind this unless they dumb down other characters in order to build this up, and unfortunately for me this is often the case, and the character they often dumb down is Sam. And if - as I said above - Sam is just "in" with the BMoL after everything he saw, I'll consider it dumbing Sam down in order to give Dean the "instinct" side. Even if Sam doesn't have as good gut instincts as Dean, in my opinion, he's not completely clueless, so I get tired of the narrative making him that way for plot purposes and me having to think up all of these metal gymnastics as to why Sam would even do these things. Just let Sam be Sam, please, instead of contriving ridiculous reasons why he would disagree with Dean when we saw very clearly at the beginning of the past episode that they were on the same page, and nothing that happened in the episode should've change that. If anything it should've strengthened Sam being on Dean's side.

Now if the narrative wanted something organic where Sam would agree, the story could have been structured differently with the hunt going textbook, people being saved (instead of killed), the intel working, etc. etc. Dean could then be suspicious of the apparent clinical efficiency of it and of Mr. Ketch's behavior, and Sam could be grudgingly impressed with the BMoL's methods. It wouldn't be ideal, since Sam was tortured by these people and was against hunters being treated the way the rogue hunter was, and there was the Colt reveal and the fact that they as hunters were treated shabbily by the BMoL on the Colt hunt and they lost Wally,  but at least it would be a little better and I might imagine Sam being swayed. Still wouldn't completely buy it though.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

I worry that Sam becoming the new Bobby will keep Dean in the role of No book lernin'/dumb!Dean/daddy's blunt little instrument role. I don't mean fandom perception per se but that the writers will have a reason to keep Dean in that narrow box.

Or, it could force them to have Dean do his own research since Sammy won't be around to do it for him?

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

But honestly, I'm not interested in SPN becoming the same kind of show as Arrow or the Flash with a base that has a team working out of it.

I'm not either, but they already did this when they introduced the Bunker. That's been my main reason for disliking it.

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

Or, it could force them to have Dean do his own research since Sammy won't be around to do it for him?

I'm not either, but they already did this when they introduced the Bunker. That's been my main reason for disliking it.

I don't think they will have both of them doing research in separate ways on the same cases u less it's like competitive hunting which seems kind of pointless for very long. If they are  working separate cases all the time.. Then What is the show?

The bunker in and of itself is not necessarily the problem. It gave the boys  a home base but they still hunted and had motel rooms.  The boys believed the  MoL was defunct and they were the last ones after killing Magnus.So they weren't really joining the MoL, they were squatting in a better protected (for a awhile) place and they didn't have to pay rent or utilities. It helped them stay underground. Unfortunately, Dabb got the bright idea to trot out the BMOL

I've been thinking that if Sam joins maybe it's to setup a spin-off with Mary. Maybe he joins temporarily for reasons and then leaves. It feels like the show is really making Ketch a big deal now and IMO a lot is riding on the audience reaction to him.Could he and Sam Smith sustain a spin-off? Maybe the next step is Mary  trying  to recruit Jodi, Donna, Claire and Alex for Womeb of Letters/Hunter spinoff with Mary and Ketch.

Maybe the boys give up the bunker to Jodi, Donna Claire and Alex for a wayward daughter academy thing and then they go back on the road full time and the extremely expensive set isn't lost.

Edited March 6, 2017 by catrox14

[DittyDotDot]

32 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I don't think they will have both of them doing research in separate ways on the same cases u less it's like competitive hunting which seems kind of pointless for very long.

I wasn't suggesting they would be doing separate research. We were talking about Sam shifting into a more Bobby-like role and, IMO, Bobby didn't do all that much research for them; Only when it was something obscure they couldn't find with the few books and resources they could pack with them. Bobby was more of a hub to organize the hunters so you didn't have five hunters showing up on one job and none to three other jobs. And he provided support for hunters when needed.

Personally, I don't think they're going to do this, I'm just saying if they did it doesn't mean that Dean is only going to be a performing monkey while Sam is sitting back at the bunker being Mr. Know it All. I think there's room for something in the middle, more like how they split them up in Heaven Can Wait. Sam and Kevin worked the Crowley angle while Dean and Cass worked the euthanasia angel case; keeping in touch the whole time and keeping each other apprised of each one's progress.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 3/3/2017 at 5:03 PM, goldy said:

Supernatural Season 12 Episode 15 Photos:

 

Why is Lucifer wearing a wedding ring?  Did he actually marry Kelly so the kid wouldn't be illegitimate?  ;)

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Why is Lucifer wearing a wedding ring?  Did he actually marry Kelly so the kid wouldn't be illegitimate?  ;)

It's probably Nick's wedding ring? I don't recall if Lucifer was wearing a ring in S5, but Nick (the meatsuit) had a wife and angels seem to just go with whatever their vessels are wearing.

[catrox14]

19 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Why is Lucifer wearing a wedding ring?  Did he actually marry Kelly so the kid wouldn't be illegitimate?  ;)

I'm assuming that was Nick's wedding ring and it didn't fall off his rotting corpse

[rue721]

24 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Did he actually marry Kelly so the kid wouldn't be illegitimate?  ;)

OMG I would love it so much if Lucifer were desperate to make an honest woman of Kelly.

It would actually ALMOST justify Lucifer's continued presence on the show if he really, truly, genuinely tried to transform himself into Ward Cleaver.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Okay, I didn't remember that Nick was married.  (?)  But I'll take everyone's word for it, cause I don't feel like looking it up.  But this:

10 minutes ago, rue721 said:

It would actually ALMOST justify Lucifer's continued presence on the show if he really, truly, genuinely tried to transform himself into Ward Cleaver.

LOL!  Yeah, I don't see that happening.  However, it would be interesting if Lucifer was worried about conforming to Guck's rules/regulations about this one thing when otherwise he's so willing to flaunt them.  

[DittyDotDot]

4 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Okay, I didn't remember that Nick was married.  (?)  But I'll take everyone's word for it, cause I don't feel like looking it up

Lucifer appeared to Nick as his dead wife in order to convince Nick to give consent on the possession in Sympathy for the Devil. Apparently his wife and kid had been brutally murdered.

[rue721]

7 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Okay, I didn't remember that Nick was married.  (?)  But I'll take everyone's word for it, cause I don't feel like looking it up.  But this:

LOL!  Yeah, I don't see that happening.  However, it would be interesting if Lucifer was worried about conforming to Guck's rules/regulations about this one thing when otherwise he's so willing to flaunt them.  

Maybe he's more worried about pissing off Guck now because he doesn't want his baby to pay for its Daddy's mistakes ;)

[catrox14]

12 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

LOL!  Yeah, I don't see that happening.  However, it would be interesting if Lucifer was worried about conforming to Guck's rules/regulations about this one thing when otherwise he's so willing to flaunt them.  

I don't think Guck cares whether people are married formally or not.

[MysteryGuest]

I have a problem with how the BMOL kill monsters, and I have a problem with the fact that so far, Mary and Sam don't seem to have a problem with it.  The idea of melting monster brains, or doing whatever the hell they were doing to the vampires just seems a little on the torturous side.  I get that we're supposed to hate monsters, but it's always been about those that were actually killing people, not just wiping out entire species.  Maybe it's just me, but I don't like it.  Perhaps I've become a monster sympathizer after all this time.

I really want to believe that Sam has a plan to use the BMOL, rather than actually join them.  I have no interest in Sam and Dean hunting separately.  I can see the show going that route in the short-term, just for some brother angst and drama, but ultimately, Sam and Dean are a team.  That's pretty much the whole premise of the show, and I don't want them getting away from that for more than just a few episodes.  

I have zero interest in Lucifer, housebroken or otherwise.  If they attempt to portray him as somehow changed because of this child, I'm calling bullshit.   

Edited March 7, 2017 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

8 minutes ago, MysteryGuest said:

I have zero interest in Lucifer, housebroken or otherwise.  If they attempt to portray him as somehow changed because of this child, I'm calling bullshit.

The only way a LuciSpawn works for me is if he plans to raise it to be the best Devil that Ever Deviled. Otherwise. NOPE

[rue721]

1 hour ago, MysteryGuest said:

I have zero interest in Lucifer, housebroken or otherwise.  If they attempt to portray him as somehow changed because of this child, I'm calling bullshit.   

It just seems like it would be so utterly, utterly misguided of him. Which is why the idea is kind of hilarious IMO. Also, I would feel some schadenfreude if he actually were to try and ~please~ and bond with Guck at this late date, especially if he made such corny attempts at it. But in no way do I think it'll happen.

To be honest, I don't care what happens with Lucifer. I'm still confused why he's back. And feel kind of sad for the president vessel that is apparently having a baby with his GF Kelly now. But I'm also not going to go back and watch LOTUS, so I don't really remember what happened to that vessel anyway. So it's hard to get too sad, even about that poor schmuck.

My big hope for the Lucifer storyline is that it somehow, some way, at some point, ties in with the other storylines and characters in a way that justifies its existence. I get how it's thematically tied, but it still is totally extraneous and annoying IMO.

[catrox14]

21 minutes ago, rue721 said:

To be honest, I don't care what happens with Lucifer. I'm still confused why he's back. And feel kind of sad for the president vessel that is apparently having a baby with his GF Kelly now. But I'm also not going to go back and watch LOTUS, so I don't really remember what happened to that vessel anyway. So it's hard to get too sad, even about that poor schmuck.

Oh he's fine. He just went back to being POTUS.  Cas reset his memories so he won't remember anything. BUT it sure does seem like there should be some kind of an APB out on Kelly the POTUS' aid and girlfriend on the DL  who has  gone missing for like months now

This show sometimes just does such stupid stupid things

Edited March 7, 2017 by catrox14

[bozodegama]

I've noticed that this season they seem to be going out of their way to have people say to Dean that he is a "killer."  Rowena said it, Mr. Ketch said it, I might be missing someone else.   The only other time I remember someone saying it that clearly was during the Metatron season when he was interrogating the lady angel who was doing minor miracles and whose name was 13 syllables.  She told him he was a killer with oceans of blood on his hands and that she hated men like him.  Dean pushed her chair over, put the angel knife to her neck and said, "honey, they're aren't any other men like me (one of my top ten Dean scenes.  There just are too many great ones.  )  Anyway, I believe all the Dean kill talk is foreshadowing Dean doing a lot of killing later in the season (pretty par for the course).  My guess, is that he does away with the BMOL in a Styne like fashion after the BMOL are responsible for something bad (probably death) happening to Mary and possibly Cass.  Just the way I see this season going.  It's been a pretty good season so far imo.

[MysteryGuest]

2 hours ago, bozodegama said:

My guess, is that he does away with the BMOL in a Styne like fashion after the BMOL are responsible for something bad (probably death) happening to Mary and possibly Cass.  Just the way I see this season going.  It's been a pretty good season so far imo.

I seriously hope the show doesn't go there.  When Dean was killing while having the Mark of Cain, and while being a demon, there was a darker force at play there.  That was not just Dean Winchester, wanton murderer.  When he went after the Stynes, he was revenging Charlie's death, but he was also half mad from the Mark.  There is no such "darker force" at play now with Dean, so I will be extremely pissed off if the show turns him into this crazed killer.  That's not who he is.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

My guess, is that he does away with the BMOL in a Styne like fashion

So far the faces of the BMOL are Ketch and Mick. That`s only two guys so I don`t see a Styne-like scenario. With Ketch, it would probably a fair fight. And I don`t even believe Dean would initiate it, he would of course defend himself and might ultimately kill Ketch but that would be different. Mick, I don`t know, he seems to be a paper pusher so if he were to be killed then I could see through BMOL stupidy by either a monster or an American hunter they went too far with. 

Of course there is Lady Toni who - thankfully - hasn`t been seen again. When the character was announced, they made it sound like she would be semi-recurring. Granted, its possible she comes back in for the final episode stretch but right now I wonder if they simply dropped the character. Maybe they thought she`d get a better reception after her intro? Couldn`t say why because how she was introduced pretty much determined she`d not be liked.   

[DittyDotDot]

3 hours ago, bozodegama said:

I've noticed that this season they seem to be going out of their way to have people say to Dean that he is a "killer."  Rowena said it, Mr. Ketch said it, I might be missing someone else.   The only other time I remember someone saying it that clearly was during the Metatron season when he was interrogating the lady angel who was doing minor miracles and whose name was 13 syllables.  She told him he was a killer with oceans of blood on his hands and that she hated men like him.  Dean pushed her chair over, put the angel knife to her neck and said, "honey, they're aren't any other men like me (one of my top ten Dean scenes.  There just are too many great ones.  )  Anyway, I believe all the Dean kill talk is foreshadowing Dean doing a lot of killing later in the season (pretty par for the course).  My guess, is that he does away with the BMOL in a Styne like fashion after the BMOL are responsible for something bad (probably death) happening to Mary and possibly Cass.  Just the way I see this season going.  It's been a pretty good season so far imo.

I'm kinda thinking it will go the opposite. I think it might be Dean showing the BMoL he's not what they think he is. But, I'm weird that way.

[Myrelle]

So far, Dean is the only one not taken in by them. So far. We don't know what they're going to do with Sam's "I'm in", but from what Dabb said in that one interview, Sam being in for the reason he stated is a possibility (and one that fits within the canon of the show for his character, IMO)-and even to additionally watch over Mary, too-which it wouldn't surprise me at all if they added that as an additional reason, because I'm pretty sure that he's going to use that one to try and recruit Dean to the Brits cause and regardless of whether it's his only reason or not. If he wants to have a combination hunting/normal life there would be no reason for him not to say that to Dean, IMO, so I'm hoping that when he tells Dean of his decision(which I think will happen in this next episode), it will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth AKA no lying by omission either because there's no reason for that at this point in their lives or in their familial relationship, again IMO. Likewise, if he's just thinking of the long con there would be no reason for him to hide this from Dean either-none that I can think of anyway. Regardless of his reasons, Sam is "in" with the Brits at this point, but Dean is still on the outside, so the big question for me at this point is will he remain there as we head into the hiatus. 

If I had to guess, I'd think not. I think they will stick to the blueprint to keep the brothers attached at the hip, meaning Dean will somehow be convinced by Sam to come on board and likely for the family comes first reasons by the end of 15(and if Dean needs further convincing, maybe one of the fancy gadgets will be the answer to resolving the hunt in 15 and it will save their lives-or one of their lives-from the Big Kahuna Hellhound-sort of like Ruby "saved" them a couple of times in s4 to show that she was on their side even while she wasn't) albeit with his reservations/distrust concerning the Brits still in place and mainly because he's not on board with the torturing-and not even of the monsters-because I think that's been telegraphed pretty well already. 

IOW, I think we'll get another redux even while I'm still hoping for something a bit different.

Oh, and I think it will be the big bosses who are the worst of the Brits, but we haven't met them yet.

1 hour ago, Aeryn13 said:

Of course there is Lady Toni who - thankfully - hasn`t been seen again. When the character was announced, they made it sound like she would be semi-recurring. Granted, its possible she comes back in for the final episode stretch but right now I wonder if they simply dropped the character. Maybe they thought she`d get a better reception after her intro? Couldn`t say why because how she was introduced pretty much determined she`d not be liked.

I don't know if they plan on bringing her back, but I'm with you in hoping that they realize that she went over like a lead balloon and, as such, make her just become the footnote that Ketch alluded to her being in last week's episode.

[AwesomO4000]

5 hours ago, Myrelle said:

We don't know what they're going to do with Sam's "I'm in", but from what Dabb said in that one interview, Sam being in for the reason he stated is a possibility (and one that fits within the canon of the show for his character, IMO)-and even to additionally watch over Mary, too-which it wouldn't surprise me at all if they added that as an additional reason, because I'm pretty sure that he's going to use that one to try and recruit Dean to the Brits cause and regardless of whether it's his only reason or not.

I'm still holding out a fool's hope that it's something else, because I agree with @Aeryn13 (and how often does that happen ; ) ) and many others that - to me - Sam's supposed reasoning doesn't really make much sense. As Aeryn pointed out, yes, they killed the Alpha vampire, but that had almost nothing to do with anything the BMoL did. Sam had better intel than they did, and yeah, the BMoL had the Colt, but it would've been useless except that Sam knew how to make more bullets, so again that was Sam, using his knowledge and an old, old weapon - not the BMoL technology - to solve the problem after the BMoL were shown to have bad intel, no back up weapons, have their "headquarters" not fortified or even remotely secure, and let a traitor right into their organization and let him know all of their secrets without a proper background check. (That guy did not say wily double agent to me, so I'm going to guess crappy background check - not something very comforting in an organization that has high tech potentially dangerous weapons that can be stolen.)

Nothing out of that fiasco, in my opinion, should have had Sam saying "oh yeah, these guys know what they're doing, let me sign up!" Not to mention the botched BMoL hunting trip to get the Colt where Sam had to watch Wally slaughtered in front of him due to bad intel. (And why else have Sam's strong reaction to seeing the Colt, except that he's thinking of how that hunt went wrong and the betrayal there?) It's kind of par for the course that they'd just shrug off Sam's torture, but those other things just don't add up for me. So if it's as stands, I'll still contend it's Sam saying "I'm in" for plot purposes, even though it makes little sense for his character at this point. And the Sam wanting a normal life thing was put to bed - again - in season 10. Sam knowing for certain now that he wanted to hunt and wanting Dean by his side as he did so was one of  the main reasons that he gave to Charlie for wanting to save Dean from the mark of Cain. It's annoying to me that this is being brought up again in contradiction to that. It was bad enough in season 8.

So if this is going to stand, then as you hinted at, there better be something else that's going to make me believe that Sam would have any reason at all to be impressed here - and that's going to be a really tall order from all of the things I mentioned.

Otherwise this is my Tabasco sauce moment - Aeryn13 knows what I'm talking about - and I'll be annoyed if they drag this on. Let's just get the Sam being wrong thing - again - over with and go back to getting rid of Lucifer. I actually want that arc now, because at least Sam has a chance of not being a rube in that one.

Bah humbug.

And if this is verging into bitter territory, I can move it to one of the bitterness threads if necessary and figure out some way to spoiler tag it. Just let me know. I know I'm a little cranky. (I recently got some bad news.) I apologize for bitching.

Edited March 8, 2017 by AwesomO4000

[catrox14]

Does Dean know that Sam killed the Alpha Vamp with the Colt?

Like I would think Dean would want to know that the Colt was out there. Like that should be a big deal to him. 

Hmmm

[MysteryGuest]

I'll be very interested to see how they play this.  Are we really going to hear Sam say to Dean that torturing and killing every last monster is the way to go?  The Sam we've known didn't believe that.  He's let numerous monsters go because they weren't actually killing people, and has worked hard to convince Dean it was the right thing to do.  But now we're supposed to believe that total annihilation is exactly what he thinks is best.  So can we expect them to start in on the werewolves next, beginning with Garth and his pack?

[rue721]

6 hours ago, AwesomO4000 said:

Nothing out of that fiasco, in my opinion, should have had Sam saying "oh yeah, these guys know what they're doing, let me sign up!"

I agree completely...but because I agree, it's so hard for me to imagine that Sam would really think there was any reason to join up with the BMOL. They're so incompetent -- what would they even have to offer the Winchesters? I think that Sam has got to have ulterior motives *at least.*

Maybe he wants intel on the BMOL...or maybe he wants *Mary* to think he's on her side and to trust him, so that he can figure out how to extricate her or even just what's going on with her. Maybe he'll act like he's siding with her "against" Dean in order to get on her good side.

I just really don't think that the show is going to go in the direction of putting a real wedge between Sam and Dean, because it made such an effort to show what a well-oiled machine they were earlier, and the show is making a pretty big effort to show how adult and mature they are now (in contrast with their mom).

9 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I think it might be Dean showing the BMoL he's not what they think he is.

Yeah, I agree. Just the fact that the BMOL would send Ketch, the psycho killer, as their liaison, and that Ketch would think that his camaraderie-based sales pitch went over like a house on fire (which IMO he seemed to) is proof IMO that the BMOL don't really know who they're dealing with. And Dean seems to be taking advantage of the blindness their overconfidence gives them IMO.

[bozodegama]

I think they may use Lady Toni again although I have no proof.  I just thought it was odd when they introduced her that they made such a big deal about her kid.  I suspect her kid is either Mr. Ketch's son or possibly partly a monster (nephilim?, there might be others).  I mean why make such a big deal about introducing her child in the first place?  I think some more of the BMOL will show up during the last few episodes to create a worse situation between them and the Winchesters.  Possibly some of the "old men" they keep talking about.  They rarely introduce someone and then not have them return.  The only ones I can think of are Cole, that guy Ennis from the attempted spinoff and the two hunters who shot Sam and Dean in Dark Side of the Moon. They usually tie up the loose ends imo.

[DittyDotDot]

9 hours ago, rue721 said:

I agree completely...but because I agree, it's so hard for me to imagine that Sam would really think there was any reason to join up with the BMOL. They're so incompetent -- what would they even have to offer the Winchesters? I think that Sam has got to have ulterior motives *at least.*

I really couldn't understand why Sam would say the BMoL were changing the world because, seriously, nothing they did in the episode seemed world changing. But then I thought about it more and I just wonder if Sam thinks they could be impressive and changing the world with a little better leadership? I mean, if they had better intel and had a contingency plan or two, their plan would've worked. It could just be Sam thinks if he can blend their tech with good old fashioned hunter experience that they could be an organized and effective group?

Now, I don't think it'll work since the BMoL have some notions that I'm sure will clash with the hunters--especially Sam--but right now, he doesn't know how icky they are. I'm still working on the assumption that the BMoL will at some point decide they need to lock up Dean--because let's be honest, Dean's not going to be down for their crap--and then it will be not only the BMoL against the Winchesters, but also the hunters they brought in.

I wonder if the season will end with monsters, hunters and MoL declaring all-out war on the Winchesters?

9 hours ago, rue721 said:

Yeah, I agree. Just the fact that the BMOL would send Ketch, the psycho killer, as their liaison, and that Ketch would think that his camaraderie-based sales pitch went over like a house on fire (which IMO he seemed to) is proof IMO that the BMOL don't really know who they're dealing with. And Dean seems to be taking advantage of the blindness their overconfidence gives them IMO.

Yeah, I definitely get the feeling Dean is playing his usual card of letting people underestimate him until it's too late.

Edited March 8, 2017 by DittyDotDot