Spoilers With Speculation

[trxr4kids]

From the Sam Smith interview:

She’s making decisions that she, in her heart, knows are the right thing — or at least she thinks they are — and she knows they’re not going to be popular decisions, but she doesn’t see any other way. Sometimes, as a parent, that’s your job. So from Mary’s perspective, she’s doing what she can, even if her kids don’t like it. But as far as the boys are concerned, they’re probably a little disillusioned. John, as you said, got a lot of flak because he abandoned them a lot, et cetera. Now here’s the difference: The boys are now in their thirties. When John was doing it, they were children. In Mary’s defense, that would be a differentiation to make.

So which is it, are they grown men who are capable of taking care of themselves and making their own decisions or do they need Mary to decide as their mother what's best for them regardless of it goes against their wishes? Can't have it both ways. Just bah! 

Edited March 2, 2017 by trxr4kids
complete sentences make more sense

[rue721]

3 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

But Mary isn't doing anything to foster that adult relationship. Shes' gone all the time. She's lying to them about her life. Dean was desperate to be connected to her and she bailed. 

I think Sam is going to blow a gasket sooner rather than later over this. Dean is venting a little at time.

Oh yeah, she hasn't been fostering the relationship.

Truthfully, it seems like she has no idea how. Fair enough, I guess, seeing as she was orphaned when she was 19 y/o and she never got to have an adult relationship with her own family either. I wish she were more self-aware and that was actually part of her storyline -- that adult parent/child relationships are something that's even newer to her than it is to Sam and Dean and she's really confused, I mean -- but IMO the show generally hasn't been doing a good job of getting into Mary's head or conveying what's up with her to the audience.

I love the whole idea of the storyline and even a lot of the directions they've taken it, but I wish they'd go a bit deeper with her character in particular. Hopefully there will still be time for that in the future, though.

Anyway, I don't know that Sam is going to blow a gasket. Although he did used to have a temper, so maybe that IS what's going to happen eventually. TBH I think it might be at Dean rather than at Mary, though. Because Dean's a safer target, I mean.

7 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

I'm afraid the writing FAIL will be huge and we will be left with how they missed the boat.  But letting Dean be angry is actually true to his character, so perhaps they will do something right.  I'll try to stand with SueB on being hopeful even if it is painful to watch.

I'm hopeful -- my fingers are crossed that Mary will be around for quite a while yet, and the show can take its sweet time with her character development and with developing Sam and Dean's relationships with her.

The only big fail that I would really really hate is if they kill her off. They JUST brought her back. As long as she's around, I think the storyline (and her character) still have lots of potential. But if they kill her off before realizing any of that potential, then I will be extremely disappointed. YMMV.

[DeeDee79]

30 minutes ago, rue721 said:

I didn't really think of Mary coming back as a second chance for Sam and Dean to have a good relationship with family (aside from each other). That's a cool way to look at it.

Honestly though, I don't know why it has to be so angsty about John. He was a PITA, but he loved them. What more can you ask for from a parent, really. Will take it to the bitterness thread in a sec but -- even though I understand why they had to kill him off (because of how the show was structured), I think it would have been so interesting to see how their relationships with him changed as they grew up. I mean, Sam and Dean were adults when the show began, but they have grown up so much over the course of the show, that it still makes me think that it would have been interesting to see how their family would have changed over the course of that time if John had stayed a part of it during all that time.

In that same vein, the "second chance" that I've been seeing in Mary returning is the second chance for Sam and Dean (and in a meta way, the show) to have an *adult* relationship with family/a parent.

I've often felt that John should have been featured far more than was shown. Even if the character had to be written off due to the unavailability of the actor they could have done more with the onscreen relationship in the time that they had.

[Mick Lady]

56 minutes ago, 7kstar said:

This is an age old issue.  Guys aren't supposed to be emotional and girls are.  Some writers want to write gay characters and others will write straight with deep relationships.  I think for me it is the problem of those that write get stuck in a mindset and don't see other possibilities.  I've also seen women write very girly for guys and not realize that they've done so.  I know when I write at times I have to check to see if the lines sound like something a guy would say or oops me bad it's sounds like a girl. 

Jensen is protective and unless a director can justify the direction, I think he will fight a direction he doesn't believe in.

You're a director and writer, so thanks for the insight!

I've always been impressed by how well Larry McMurtry writes women.

[Mick Lady]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Sam turning over the phone when Dean walked in - means he's already been in contact with Mary, despite the 'frozen her out for days' line.  Maybe already even agreed to meet up with her to talk - or go on that hunt.  So the secrets and lies that @AwesomO4000 and others (including me) didn't want to see?  Too late.  Sorry about our luck.

I fear you are right Rulerofallsurvey. I would think that after all this time the Boys would stop keeping secrets from each other. Just another reason I'm starting to dislike Mary. Rather than helping her "boys", she's going to drive them apart.

She knows about the BMoL, but still trusts them over her own sons. I just don't get it. But then again she has no relationship with them, as others have said. Sam is so desperate to have a relationship with her, I genuinely feel for him, but does he have to be so blind?

Makes me miss Crowley!

[Myrelle]

31 minutes ago, trxr4kids said:

So which is it, are they grown men who are capable of taking care of themselves and making their own decisions or do they need Mary to decide as their what's best for them regardless of it goes against their wishes? Can't have it both ways. Just bah! 

Yeah, this was only one of the problems that I had with that interview. She also said that Dean is very angry that she's been working with the Brits, but she never mentioned anything else and that's not the only reason that he's angry with her. It goes much deeper than that-or it should-unless the writers are choosing not to let it go deeper than strictly what's just on the surface yet again. That. Would. Suck. IMO.

And the clip didn't give me a good vibe at all because now Sam is pulling the family excuses everything card, too. I really hope that Dean will be allowed to hold onto his anger; but with this show, chances of that happening are slim to none. I'm not watching him apologize, though. If that happens, I'll just take another pass. I saw enough Dean apologies in the first 5 seasons of this show to last me a lifetime and if I never see another one again, it will be too soon.

Quote

 

A lot will probably depend on how the vamp hunt ends. Sure, it goes pear-shaped but if the BMOL, Mary and Sam turn up victorious anyway, they won`t look in the wrong. If they manage to kill the Alpha Vamp, it will present even more like a big win. What`s a little hitch along the ride?

That is IMO what has me worried Dean is going to end up apologizing. Because he doubted the ever-great BMOL, all-holy-Mary in her wisdom and the peace-making Sam who picked the "right side" when Dean was too stubborn to.

 

Sadly, I'm getting the feeling that this is where they're headed. How else will Dean wind up working with the asshat Brits as came out of that one set report? And I think Dabb said that they would wind up working with some of them sometimes too.

I am so disillusioned with all of the storylines this season, at this point. The Mary storyline has been the biggest disappointment of all to me and that Samantha Smith interview only made it seem more so.   

Edited March 2, 2017 by Myrelle

[Geordiegirl1967]

9 hours ago, Wayward Son said:

Hmm, it's been a while since I watched, so I could be wrong, but honestly I'd link that improvement more to Sam's improved mental health. 

Definitely. Dean's drinking got bad when he was hiding killing Sam's friend and gradually improved from when he came clean up to when Sam's Hellucinations were cured. Cas wasn't really back in any recognizable sense for most of s7. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

4 hours ago, DeeDee79 said:

This entire post is spot on. I'll just add that Sam and Dean may have had less angsty drama between them when compared to previous seasons but they have ignored plenty of potential brother moments that would have been appreciated.

Thanks DD and I totally agree. The wasted opportunities to write decent material for the brothers has been Dabb's biggest failing.  

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Hunt goes bad.  Personally, I hope Sam can pull it out without Dean coming to rescue them.  Not going to hold my breath for that though.  And, oh if by some miracle he manages to save himself and Mary, I'm sure there will be plenty of disparaging "SuperSam comments to take the shine off the moment.

I`m not sure Jensen shot enough material for a rescue. We have the beginning, one or two scenes with Ketch and probably a tag at the end. If he shot for two days, that is stretching it already, for three maybe.

Now if that means Super!Sam? Possibly. It might also mean Super!Mary being the glorious hero. The writers sure seem to be in love with her. 

Or the BMOL getting out some other shiny toys. Any and all variations of those, that lead to a successful hunt for the BMOL in the end will lead to Dean having to realize the error of his ways. For that reason alone, I want them to fail, fail, fail. I don`t want those stupid BMOL to be validated and will be definitely rooting for the Alpha!Vamp to give them an asskicking of a lifetime.    

[ILoveReading]

That interview makes this episode sound even worse.  The justification Mary is using sounds a lot like the justification Sam used when working with Ruby.  The ends justify the means.  Its a better way.  It saves more people.   Except we saw how that turned out.

It also sounds like once again the onus will be on Dean to adapt and accept other peoples behaviour instead of them actually understanding why Dean is upset. 

It's not black and white and that Sam is the sensitive one, maybe its just that Dean is so tried of being lied to.   I can see Sam going along with the Mary and the men of letters and picking their side, because Sam is the one that contacted them in the first place.  Before Mary ever did and he did it behind Dean's back.  (Although I  suspect that will be buried and forgotten).

Dean hasn't been black and white in over a decade.  He's a lot more sensitive than the writers give him credit for.  I wish the writers would drop this stereotyping characterization. Dean shattered that illusion as far back as episode 3. 

This sounds like another lesson ep for Dean to learn how great the BMoL's, Sam and Mary are while he's moping in his beer.   I'll be surprised if it doesn't end with Dean apologizing to Mary for not being more accepting her and her new BFFs and agreeing to work with them instead of being allowed to voice his objection.

I'll be pleasantly surprised if it doesn't but that's usually how these episode go.

I also will be rooting for the Alpha and his children and I hope they show those Brits whose boss,

Edited March 2, 2017 by ILoveReading

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

This sounds like another lesson ep for Dean to learn how great the BMoL's, Sam and Mary are while he's moping in his beer.   I'll be surprised if it doesn't end with Dean apologizing to Mary for not being more accepting her and her new BFFs and agreeing to work with them instead of being allowed to voice his objection.

I really don't know, I haven't paid much attention to the previews and such this week, but  I'm getting the impression things are going to go terribly wrong and Dean will get a "I told you so" moment. 

I get what's going on with Mary. I think she just doesn't fit right now and doesn't know how to be a mother to these two grown men, so she's trying to protect her family the only way she knows how. Of course she's going about it all wrong, but I think it's how Grampy Campbell operated and she's fallen back into his mindset here. 

I'm very disappointed it appears that the show went back to pitting Sam and Dean against each other for angst. I don't think it's necessary myself. They all have valid points of view here, we don't need forced conflict to see that, IMO.

[ILoveReading]

3 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I really don't know, I haven't paid much attention to the previews and such this week, but  I'm getting the impression things are going to go terribly wrong and Dean will get a "I told you so" moment. 

 

I'm really hoping for this, but with set reports of Dean meeting the Mick and Mr. Ketch it sounds like Dean is working with them.  If this ep ends in and I told you so moment, I don't really see that happening. 

[Myrelle]

I really, REALLY! disliked her stereotypical descriptions of the brothers, too. If people want to know where Saint Sam and MEEN!Dean come from just go and re-read that interview. And ITA that things aren't "black and white" with Dean anymore. Far from it. I mean, who are the ones who are advocating wiping out ALL monsters here?! Lots of red flags in that interview that intimate that Dean is going to be schooled again and some more on certain things in this episode, IMO. I think the best we'll be able to hope for is that the stalemate continues. Although, I DO think that Sam might pick a side as to who he'd rather hunt with; but then again, maybe not. This one is totally and completely up in the air for me right now. I'll be looking forward to the feedback tonight.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Myrelle

[DittyDotDot]

14 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm really hoping for this, but with set reports of Dean meeting the Mick and Mr. Ketch it sounds like Dean is working with them.  If this ep ends in and I told you so moment, I don't really see that happening. 

Perhaps, but it could be that Dean works with them because he feels he has to, not because he decides they're right? I really don't know, but I'm wondering if Dean simply works with them because he's worried they're going to get Mary killed and not because he comes around to their way of thinking?

ETA: For clarity, what if Dean just figures he can't stop Mary from working with Her Majesty's Secret Suckbags, but figures he can at least go along and keep her un-dead for a while longer. I know he's pissed at her, as he has a right to be, but once the dust settles, perhaps he just realizes that even though he's pissed he really doesn't want her to go away before they get a chance to work things out? 

Edited March 2, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[ILoveReading]

19 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I really, REALLY! disliked her stereotypical descriptions of the brothers, too. If people want to know where Saint Sam and MEEN!Dean come from just go and re-read that interview. And ITA that things aren't "black and white" with Dean anymore. Far from it. I mean, who are the ones who are advocating wiping out ALL monsters here?! Lots of red flags in that interview that intimate that Dean is going to be schooled again and some more on certain things in this episode, IMO. I think the best we'll be able to hope for is that the stalemate continues. Although, I DO think that Sam might pick a side as to who he'd rather hunt with; but then again, maybe not. This one is totally and completely up in the air for me right now. I'll be looking forward to the feedback tonight.

I'm almost hoping Dean makes a deal with the Alpha vamp.  He agrees to call his attack off at the facility.  Dean agrees to be an undercover agent and take down the Brits.

At this point I'd say the Alpha is more trustworthy then they are.

[Myrelle]

2 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Perhaps, but it could be that Dean works with them because he feels he has to, not because he decides they're right? I really don't know, but I'm wondering if Dean simply works with them because he's worried they're going to get Mary killed and not because he comes around to their way of thinking?

This was my original hope when I first read that spoiler, but IDK... These writers DO seem to like to employ that lecturing type of dialogue, so someone will likely be hit with it by the end of this one. And the whole family comes first thing is Mary and Sam's argument at the moment and that also happens to be THE main theme of this show, if it has one that stands out more than any of the others. So that one IS going to at least be a part of the lesson plan, IMO; and we know from the preview who's NOT putting family first and hasn't been since the big "reveal". I still think the best that we can hope for coming out of this episode is that the stalemate continues and no apologies are forced, because from that interview, it sure doesn't sound like there will be one forthcoming from Mary any time soon. It's the brother stuff( again and as usual) that I'm more worried about in this one.

[Myrelle]

13 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm almost hoping Dean makes a deal with the Alpha vamp.  He agrees to call his attack off at the facility.  Dean agrees to be an undercover agent and take down the Brits.

I'm with Aeryn on this. Jensen won't be in this one  long enough for this to happen. Yet more reason to think that Dean will just probably be back at the bunker "reflecting" on what he said and likely regretting it because family comes first IS his original motto, after all. Maybe the visit from Ketch will reinforce his distrust of the BMoL, but my guess is he's going to be made to take back what he said about picking sides. I'd bet the ranch on that. It's all going to be about another big brotherly talk at the end of this one, IMO. And those rarely go well for Dean because of the lack of balanced dialogue, IMO. We'll see. Hopefully Sam might learn something on his hunt with Mommy Dearest that will allow for more balance in this one. That would be a pleasant surprise.

Edited March 2, 2017 by Myrelle

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I still think the best that we can hope for coming out of this episode is that the stalemate continues and no apologies are forced, because from that interview, it sure doesn't sound like there will be one forthcoming from Mary any time soon. It's the brother stuff( again and as usual) that I'm more worried about in this one.

I wouldn't expect an apology coming from Mary, not yet at least. Mary think's she's right and I think it's going to take more than one sideways "raid" to convince her otherwise. And, I don't think she even realizes what she's doing to Sam and Dean right now. She's too deep into her mission to make the world safe to even see them. I'm quite certain that she feels that when it's all said and done she'll have time to stop and worry about them, but she doesn't realize that it might be too late after it's all said and done. So, yeah, I'm not expecting any apologies from Mary. That's not to say that I don't think she should apologize, I just don't think it's where her character is at is all and the show should stay true to the characters.

I do expect apologies from both boys though. They are right in there feelings, but wrong in how they're acting on those feelings, IMO, and I hope it's acknowledged by the end of the episode and not drug out for a bunch more. If there's one thing I've enjoyed this season, it's the lack of BS conflict between Sam and Dean. That shit's so old it reeks!

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I wouldn't expect an apology coming from Mary, not yet at least. Mary think's she's right and I think it's going to take more than one sideways "raid" to convince her otherwise.

I hate that she thinks she's like Dean, though, because she's not-except for on the surface. And if that's how Sam Smith sees her, is that also how the writers see her?! That's concerning to me because all I see is John, John, and more John with her self-righteous attitude. It's not righteous, it's self-righteous. And if this hunt goes sideways, that's two, not just one. So Sam should at least see that.

[Aeryn13]

Quote

So, yeah, I'm not expecting any apologies from Mary. 

I`m neither. In that interview Sam Smith made her sound very self-righteous. Unfortunately, I want to see the character humbled so badly, I will root for every vampire and monster to beat her ass till then. I`m gonna live vicariously through them.  

[RulerofallIsurvey]

2 hours ago, Aeryn13 said:

Or the BMOL getting out some other shiny toys. Any and all variations of those, that lead to a successful hunt for the BMOL in the end will lead to Dean having to realize the error of his ways. 

If Dean doesn't have to come to the rescue, the best case scenario I see is that Sam (with Mary's help) saves the hunt and they get out by the skin of their teeth after it goes bad.  I wouldn't call that a 'successful' hunt.  In no way would that mean Dean would have to realize the 'error of his ways', because there is no error to realize.  

55 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I really don't know, I haven't paid much attention to the previews and such this week, but  I'm getting the impression things are going to go terribly wrong and Dean will get a "I told you so" moment. 

Or basically this^^.  What she said.  

7 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

If there's one thing I've enjoyed this season, it's the lack of BS conflict between Sam and Dean. That shit's so old it reeks!

Me too.  So I hope the show doesn't go back there.  Or at least not for long.  

[DittyDotDot]

1 minute ago, Myrelle said:

I hate that she thinks she's like Dean, though, because she's not-except for on the surface. And if that's how Sam Smith sees her, is that also how the writers see her?! That's concerning to me because all I see is John, John, and more John with her self-righteous attitude. It's not righteous, it's self-righteous. And if this hunt goes sideways, that's two, not just one. So Sam should at least see that.

I haven't read the full interview, but I'm not sure Samantha Smith thinks Mary is like Dean or if it's that she thinks Mary thinks she's like Dean. I think that's an important difference. 

[SueB]

I think it's pretty hilarious that I'm not the only one routing for the Alpha Vamp.  

Supernatural: Where "wrong" can be so "right".

[RulerofallIsurvey]

55 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

59 minutes ago, ILoveReading said:

I'm really hoping for this, but with set reports of Dean meeting the Mick and Mr. Ketch it sounds like Dean is working with them.  If this ep ends in and I told you so moment, I don't really see that happening. 

Perhaps, but it could be that Dean works with them because he feels he has to, not because he decides they're right?

Could also be that Dean tells them where to get off.  Meeting with them does not equate to working with them at all.  Even pooling resources, as means to his own end, is not "working with" them.  

40 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

So that one IS going to at least be a part of the lesson plan, IMO; and we know from the preview who's NOT putting family first and hasn't been since the big "reveal"

You mean Mary, right?  I sure hope you mean Mary.  Because, IMO, she's the Winchester who hasn't been putting family first.  

12 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And if this hunt goes sideways, that's two, not just one. So Sam should at least see that.

And I hope he does.

[ILoveReading]

30 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

I'm with Aeryn on this. Jensen won't be in this one  long enough for this to happen. Yet more reason to think that Dean will just probably be back at the bunker "reflecting" on what he said and likely regretting it because family comes first IS his original motto, after all. Maybe the visit from Ketch will reinforce his distrust of the BMoL, but my guess is he's going to be made to take back what he said about picking sides. I'd bet the ranch on that. It's all going to be about another big brotherly talk at the end of this one, IMO. And those rarely go well for Dean because of the lack of balanced dialogue, IMO. We'll see. Hopefully Sam might learn something on his hunt with Mommy Dearest that will allow for more balance in this one. That would be a pleasant surprise.

I;m not really expecting it either.  Just gasping and straws and finding a way for Dean to possibility be relevant in tonights episode.    It bugs that Sam and Mary pull out the family card because the last time Dean did that he got disowned.

It would be a pleasant surprise if Sam and Dean decide pretend to be on opposite sides and secretly work to take down the BMoL.

I'm trying to figure out where the talk with Mr. Ketch works in.  I'm guessing that after Dean storms out and goes to the bar, that will be the last we see or hear of him until the final act.  The promos show Mr. Ketch suited up in body armor like he's on The Raid.  Is that before or after he tries to recruit Dean. 

[catrox14]

31 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

I get what's going on with Mary. I think she just doesn't fit right now and doesn't know how to be a mother to these two grown men, so she's trying to protect her family the only way she knows how. Of course she's going about it all wrong, but I think it's how Grampy Campbell operated and she's fallen back into his mindset here. 

 

This is a problem I have  with Mary's characterization this year.

I just do not buy that her motives  are because she just doesn't fit in to this world and is trying to protect them.

Neither premise works for me because they have spent zero time showing us why Mary just doesn't fit either in this world or with her children. Five minutes with them on a hunt and she decides her brain still sees her Weechesters and and she's gotta go.

Okaybut now it's been months. And she is still emotionally, and physically distant from them. No effort has been shown on her part to try and get to know them as they are now; to learn their quirks and personalities. When she  says to Dean "Don't give me the face" its a hollow, patronizing and controlling manuever to get Dean off her ass about her stupid decisions and her betrayal and lies.

The ONE thing Mary vowed to herself when she was 19 was to not raise her children in the hunting life like her. And given the pilot and her less than hunter like response to Azazel visit, it would seem she very much did quit hunting. Okay so they  retcon that to say no, Mary continued to hunt in secret all along.

So let's say her default setting is more hunter Mary Campbell than civilian Mary  but instead of sticking with the two best hunters in the world who are also her children, she finds it a better choice to  go with the ass clowns that tortured Sam and on their way to doing the same to Dean? And let's not forget why Sam was being tortured. He wouldnt  give up the names of other hunters. If Mary is willing to work with BMOL, it makes me wonder how many hunter names did she give up? Or did she agree to work with them rather than give up names? Mary is a fool of she really believes Lady McTortureLady was going rogue. Lady McTortureLady and her gal pal learned that from someone.

.

[catrox14]

34 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

do expect apologies from both boys though. They are right in there feelings, but wrong in how they're acting on those feelings, IMO, and I hope it's acknowledged by the end of the episode and not drug out for a bunch more. If there's one thing I've enjoyed this season, it's the lack of BS conflict between Sam and Dean. That shit's so old it reeks!

What has been wrong about the boys and their reactions to Mary?

Dean kept the lines of communication open all along even as he was angry with her. Sam gave her space because he thought he should. .

They never froze her out until now. After they learn of her betrayal.

[DittyDotDot]

48 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

And if this hunt goes sideways, that's two, not just one. So Sam should at least see that.

Forgot: I think Sam sees it's a problem before he goes in on the hunt. I'm guessing both Sam and Dean are aware that Mary can't see the forest for the trees right now, they just have different approaches to giving her perspective. Dean's approach seems to be pointing at the tree right in front of them and telling her, "That's a tree, there's a whole bunch more where that came from." While Sam's approach seems to be to take up a very steep and winding mountain so she can see all the trees at once. I don't think either approach is going to help Mary see the forest, though, because Mary clearly has her eyes tightly closed and can't see anything right now.

Hee! I haven't tortured a metaphor in days...good times. ;)

19 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

What has been wrong about the boys and their reactions to Mary?

Nothing's been wrong with their reactions to Mary, but I do have a problem with Sam hiding stuff from Dean and Dean taking his own frustration out on Sam. They need to stop acting like petty little jerks to each other and figure a way to work together to solve the current problem.

Edited March 2, 2017 by DittyDotDot

[Myrelle]

41 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

You mean Mary, right?  I sure hope you mean Mary.  Because, IMO, she's the Winchester who hasn't been putting family first.  

You have to go with the dialogue on this, IMO. Mary wants them to come with her and work with the BMoL  and her reasoning for opening up to them about the Brits and wanting them with her in this-family comes first. And why does Sam want Dean to stop freezing mom out( and even though he's apparently mad at her, too)-family comes first. Dean is in the wrong here in this, at least, according to the writers, IMO. I don't think they or Samantha Smith sees Mary as having done anything wrong as regards the family thing except for keeping her working relationship with the Brits a secret from them. And notice Wally hasn't been mentioned again. Her leaving to "find herself"?-perfectly fine-especially because she texted them once or twice a week. No need to spend any real time with them. Sam Smith said in that interview that the difference there between what she did and what John did was that John did that to them as children. Her rebuttal is that they're adults now, so that's that. They should be able to handle it, I guess. And again, I'm not sure if this is a writer thought as to how they actually see and feel about her leaving them or if it's the actress trying to defend her character here. I have so little trust in these writers as regards Mary and her storyline at this moment. I do not think they see or think of Mary as not putting family first-because she said she does and is and to hell with what the fandom thinks they've seen regarding this. It is their usual MO, IMO, so...

Edited March 2, 2017 by Myrelle

[rue721]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Nothing's been wrong with their reactions to Mary, but I do have a problem with Sam hiding stuff from Dean and Dean taking his own frustration out on Sam. They need to stop acting like petty little jerks to each other and figure a way to work together to solve the current problem.

I don't think they've had a chance to react yet. They had JUST found out that Mary is working with the BMOL at the end of the last episode. I think we'll probably get to see their reactions in this coming episode, though.

IMO they've been pretty understanding toward each other so far, seeing as they're not really feeling the same way or looking for the same thing from Mary at the moment.

If Sam decides to help/protect Mary while she wonders into the lion's den, IMO that's valid. If Dean decides he can't be a party to her stupidity, IMO that's valid, too. I don't even think that it's necessarily going to cause a rift between them that they're taking different tacts on this. After all, they've been able to handle differences in perspective before.

[Myrelle]

Dean not going on the hunt out of his own choice would be OOC, IMO. He even said that he needed to hit something in the preview. I think Sam will go on his own while Dean is out. Dean will come back and either Ketch will be there or he will come in at the end. IMO, Ketch will prompt Dean to work with them in some way. That will be an important part of this episode, too. Will Dean wind up working with them while retaining his distrust of them because of his Protector instincts or will it be because Ketch convinces him that they would all work better together/family comes first/he loves the hunt just like Mommy Dearest/blah, blah, blah. I hope that it's predominantly the first and I really hope that the brothers will agree in the end that the Brits cannot be trusted and that their mother is in way over her head.

[IWantDean]

According to Twitter the actor David Haydn-Jones who plays Ketch, Dean and Ketch on a hunt together, too. I would post the IG photo of the two but I'm not sure how.

Edited March 2, 2017 by IWantDean

[DittyDotDot]

6 minutes ago, rue721 said:

If Sam decides to help/protect Mary while she wonders into the lion's den, IMO that's valid. If Dean decides he can't be a party to her stupidity, IMO that's valid, too. I don't even think that it's necessarily going to cause a rift between them that they're taking different tacts on this. After all, they've been able to handle differences in perspective before.

Oh, I agree both approaches are valid and was hoping the show was going to explore their validity without the sanctimonious conflicting crap.

BTW, I'm just speaking to that clip where Sam is hiding his phone from Dean comes and Dean basically tells Sam he's a traitor for wanting peace with someone who isn't their enemy. I just thought we were past the pointless petty bickering and secrets. However, that's just a clip and in context of the episode it might not seem so petty? But, judging by that clip, my feeling is Sam's gonna huff off after Mary because Dean was "mean" to him and Dean's gonna sulk around and tell them all he told them so when it all goes south.

It's just disappointing right now because I've felt like they did a good job of showing everyone has a valid place they're coming from. It's harder to see it as valid when they they act like petty little children, though. I'm sure I'll get over it.

[rue721]

4 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

BTW, I'm just speaking to that clip where Sam is hiding his phone from Dean comes and Dean basically tells Sam he's a traitor for wanting peace with someone who isn't their enemy. I just thought we were past the pointless petty bickering and secrets. However, that's just a clip and in context of the episode it might not seem so petty? But, judging by that clip, my feeling is Sam's gonna huff off after Mary because Dean was "mean" to him and Dean's gonna sulk around and tell them all he told them so when it all goes south.

Ugh fair enough.

ETA:  "ugh" is directed at how silly the "traitor" thing sounds. That does sound petty. I used to think that Dean drank too much, but if they can't keep themselves from bickering and conniving over *someone else* being a PITA, maybe they should both hit the bottle for a bit just to chill the hell out ;)

And yes, that is apparently my version of giving them "time out." Ahhhh, go hit the bottle why don't you! :P

Edited March 2, 2017 by rue721

[Myrelle]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

For clarity, what if Dean just figures he can't stop Mary from working with Her Majesty's Secret Suckbags, but figures he can at least go along and keep her un-dead for a while longer.

This is likely where they're headed, IMO. No apologies are necessary though and IMO. And I hope that they will continue to stay away from them-unless and until Mary comes up with one because at this point and IMO, she's the character that needs to apologize more than any other.

[Geordiegirl1967]

1 hour ago, ILoveReading said:

It would be a pleasant surprise if Sam and Dean pretend to be on opposite sides and secretly work to take down the BMoL.

I totally agree. I'd love this. A bait n switch at the end showing that S&D are a united front and always have each other's back would be sooooo satisfying. Sadly I fear the worst though. 

[Geordiegirl1967]

2 hours ago, DittyDotDot said:

I'm very disappointed it appears that the show went back to pitting Sam and Dean against each other for angst. I don't think it's necessary myself. They all have valid points of view here, we don't need forced conflict to see that, IMO.

I agree, but I fear that mining the bro conflict trope has become a reflex action for these writers. Have they forgotten that S&Ds bond is heart of the show? 

[Myrelle]

9 minutes ago, IWantDean said:

According to instagram the actor David Haydn-Jones who plays Ketch, Dean and Ketch on a hunt together, too. I would post the IG photo of the two but I'm not sure how.

Well, that's not what I was expecting. IDK. Will have to wait and see. I want Dean to continue to distrust them, not get sucked in by them, too.

[catrox14]

58 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

Nothing's been wrong with their reactions to Mary, but I do have a problem with Sam hiding stuff from Dean and Dean taking his own frustration out on Sam. They need to stop acting like petty little jerks to each other and figure a way to work together to solve the current problem

Ah. I gotcha.  I don't think they were petty in that clip particularly. They were both standing their ground. The only thing I side-eye with Sam is his sketchy behavior with the phone.

I don't think either has been that much of an asshole to the other given how it could have gone.

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Geordiegirl1967 said:

I agree, but I fear that mining the bro conflict trope has become a reflex action for these writers. Have they forgotten that S&Ds bond is heart of the show? 

It's not like the boys are a married couple. Siblings fight and disagree and are not always in lock step. I've never been upset with the brotherly angst myself. The boys are different people, with different motivations and outlooks. I do think their conflict in this situation is organic to the extent that it might reveal how connections with parents alter sibling relationships. It would have played better if the show had spent more time with all three to show how and why the boys are reacting differently to Mary. 

[Myrelle]

1 minute ago, catrox14 said:

It's not like the boys are a married couple. Siblings fight and disagree and are not always in lock step. I've never been upset with the brotherly angst myself. The boys are different people, with different motivations and outlooks. I do think their conflict in this situation is organic to the extent that it might reveal how connections with parents alter sibling relationships. It would have played better if the show had spent more time with all three to show how and why the boys are reacting differently to Mary. 

They lack balance in their writing of each character's POV when it comes to these type of differences, though. And they have demonstrated that lack time and time again from way back when, IMO. That's the biggest reason that I'm over them.

[rue721]

4 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

It's not like the boys are a married couple. Siblings fight and disagree and are not always in lock step. I've never been upset with the brotherly angst myself. The boys are different people, with different motivations and outlooks. I do think their conflict in this situation is organic to the extent that it might reveal how connections with parents alter sibling relationships. It would have played better if the show had spent more time with all three to show how and why the boys are reacting differently to Mary. 

I'm OK with disagreements...in fact, I like it when Sam and Dean have different perspectives on things. It's interesting to hear their discussions about things they don't see the same way. IMO some of the best moments of the show have been when Sam and Dean have discussed their different perspectives...on faith, family, even on individual people (like Bobby, for example).

I also like it when one of them comes out with a statement that just totally changes how I see them/their perspective on something, while staying true to character. Like Sam saying he prays a lot or when Dean said Bobby was the closest thing he had to a father (when he comes back to life in S4). I really enjoy these characters, so that kind of thing is always surprising and fascinating to me -- and that this show is capable of pulling something like that is why I like it so much altogether.

I just don't like when they get at each others' throats over disagreements, because it seems childish. It makes me think less of them. Like, OK, you can disagree but don't punch each other or scheme ffs.

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Myrelle said:

They lack balance in their writing of each character's POV when it comes to these type of differences, though. And they have demonstrated that lack time and time again from way back when, IMO. That's the biggest reason that I'm over them.

I agree that the POVs could use some work but for me, the brotherly angst was what defined the show from the pilot forward. I don't think that's really gone away which I've always been okay with personally

[Diane]

[catrox14]

3 minutes ago, Diane said:

GD. I hate this so much.

Dean better have a GD good reason for this that puts Mr. Ketch in the Alpha Vamp's crosshairs.

[Aeryn13]

So what, in this upcoming episode Ketch and Dean have a sit-down with drinks. Meanwhile a vamp hunt is going on. That they don`t go on. 

In an upcoming episode, they will have a sit-down with drinks. And then they will go on...a vamp hunt? 

Does he refer to the next episode after all and Ketch and Dean come in at the tail end of it? I mean, Dean even wears the same red shirt. Are they literally gonna clone this episode like that?

The comments to the facebook post are confusing. It seems like everyone does assume he just posted the photo from the shooting for ep 14 to advertise the episode tonight.

 

second edit: I`m stupid, the actor himself refered to the episode "The Raid". So Dean and Ketch go hunting in tonight`s episode. Well, I`ll be happy to see a bit of action!Dean after all. 

Edited March 2, 2017 by Aeryn13

[Diane]

I think it's one and the same.

4 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

So what, in this upcoming episode Ketch and Dean have a sit-down with drinks. Meanwhile a vamp hunt is going on. That they don`t go on. 

In an upcoming episode, they will have a sit-down with drinks. And then they will go on...a vamp hunt? 

Does he refer to the next episode after all and Ketch and Dean come in at the tail end of it? I mean, Dean even wears the same red shirt. Are they literally gonna clone this episode like that?

[catrox14]

I wonder if he got a little carried away with his SM and spoiled something he wasn't supposed to spoil?

This post from DHJ's instagram implies this happens during tonight's episode. From the caption

Quote

#Ketch and Dean on the scene! Absolute delight to go hunting with incomparable @jensenackles in the episode "The Raid" #bts #supernatural #Bmol #MrKetch #spnfamily

I'm kind of confused

Edited March 2, 2017 by catrox14

[rue721]

They look cold.

Too bad Jensen had to take off his horrible cowboy/fashion hat for the shoot ;)

[Diane]

7 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

I wonder if he got a little carried away with his SM and spoiled something he wasn't supposed to spoil?

This post from DHJ's instagram implies this happens during tonight's episode. From the caption

I'm kind of confused

That is what I am thinking too.