Spoilers With Speculation

[catrox14]

Okay. I do not understand this business about a soul bomb and how the hell that can even work.

Amara EATS souls. I'm thinking the more souls she eats the stronger she gets. So how exactly is Dean going to be a soul bomb. Is he going to have the souls inside him?  How can a human do that?

I mean I just don't get it at all.  Didn't Cas spend all that time amassing souls and he was the bad guy for doing that? What the hell? And then it let all the Leviathan onto the earth. I mean this is a really bad idea.

Cas should just go to Heaven and ask for volunteers. I'm so not understanding this entire notion.
 

[catrox14]

Promo pics

http://www.thetvaddict.com/2016/05/19/supernatural-season-11-finale-photos-alpha-and-omega/?slide=13

[catrox14]

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Amara EATS souls. I'm thinking the more souls she eats the stronger she gets. So how exactly is Dean going to be a soul bomb. Is he going to have the souls inside him?  How can a human do that?

In the promo Chuck seems to fashion the souls into some kind of structure. I`m guessing Rowena will then fuse that with Dean`s essence. That will work because...magic. Then Dean will allow Amara to absorb him in the way she wants to, meaning he will be "boundless within her" but not like the souls she consumed. Only then will he detonate the bomb. That will have an adverse effect on Amara.

This sounds really odd but I liken it to a human body and things going where they don`t belong. For example air and blood, both very much needed for the body to stay alive. But if the lung were to fill with blood or you inject oxygen into the bloodstream, not a good idea. 

Of course, according to Chuck, they can not kill her because of reasons so Dean dies and since they are bound, Amara goes to the empty with him? Not sure why she couldn`t escape this but I imagine...reasons.

And see what you did? Now I`ve talked myself into a scenario I desperately want to happen. Aaaah. Must.quell.hope. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by Aeryn13

[Omegamom]

They should just let the post-production folk make all the promos from here on out, because they've all been awesome.

 

Dean's gonna sacrifice himself.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Omegamom

[catrox14]

Fucking Hell. That made me legit cry. That's too much.Dean is a goner I think. Apparently that was Briana, Ruth and Emily singing.

[Aeryn13]

Hm, what is this ending shot with Dean looking up at the sky? He is in the garden where he meets Amara. And where Chuck and Amara also meet again. I just hope this is not some gigantic fake-out and Dean is looking at them how they are both basically "flying away". 

[Omegamom]

Okay, that's a valid question, and a valid interpolation of it.  However, the whole promo is one or the other of them dying, and the title is "Sacrificio", and the whole season has been about realizing that sometimes you have to die to save people...so that would be the biggest of all big fake outs.

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, Aeryn13 said:

Hm, what is this ending shot with Dean looking up at the sky? He is in the garden where he meets Amara. And where Chuck and Amara also meet again. I just hope this is not some gigantic fake-out and Dean is looking at them how they are both basically "flying away". 

I don't think it will be. It's being directed by Phil Sgriccia and he really seems to make every shot count.

My immediate reaction was "Wait, that's almost the same shot as the beginning of Lazarus Rising" after Dean crawls out of his grave which happened because Castiel raised him from Perdition and we meet Castiel for the first time. And then I got really upset...because I wonder...if this is actually Dean looking to the Heavens because Cas has said goodbye to Dean forever and he's going back to Heaven. Or that Cas has actually died and Dean is seeing him be taken back to Heaven before he faces off with Amara.

That maybe I've been ignoring all along that Alpha and Omega could really be the beginning of Castiel's journey with Dean and now...the end of it. And now I've literally made myself cry. 

 

 i

[catrox14]

 

[Goldmoon]

Thoughout the season folks have been speculating that this whole season and story line isn't real.  Things are just too "off."  Any hope that this whole damned thing isn't real?  Why did Dean wake up in a field of flowers that were out of season in ep 1? I have enjoyed three eps:  Baby, Bobby and Mildred/Eileen ones.  The rest of this has been pretty bad, and My Happy Few deserves a Razzie.  I have been trying to think of an episode that was worse than this one.  Thoughts?  Could it possibly be that Dean has been in a coma?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

I don't think it will be. It's being directed by Phil Sgriccia and he really seems to make every shot count.

If that`s what happened in the episode, there is nothing much a director could do about it. I just don`t know what the context for such a shot could be. Unless Amara is suddenly a giant, why would Dean look up like that? He clearly looks at something in astonishment. The scene starts with him arriving in that place where Amara already is. Another promo pic shows Chuck there. Now if this is in a scene before Dean or later, I don`t know. 

[catrox14]

22 minutes ago, Aeryn13 said:

If that`s what happened in the episode, there is nothing much a director could do about it. I just don`t know what the context for such a shot could be. Unless Amara is suddenly a giant, why would Dean look up like that? He clearly looks at something in astonishment. The scene starts with him arriving in that place where Amara already is. Another promo pic shows Chuck there. Now if this is in a scene before Dean or later, I don`t know. 

Did you see the rest of my comment? 

1 hour ago, catrox14 said:

y immediate reaction was "Wait, that's almost the same shot as the beginning of Lazarus Rising" after Dean crawls out of his grave which happened because Castiel raised him from Perdition and we meet Castiel for the first time. And then I got really upset...because I wonder...if this is actually Dean looking to the Heavens because Cas has said goodbye to Dean forever and he's going back to Heaven. Or that Cas has actually died and Dean is seeing him be taken back to Heaven before he faces off with Amara.

 

[catrox14]

30 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

Thoughout the season folks have been speculating that this whole season and story line isn't real.  Things are just too "off."  Any hope that this whole damned thing isn't real?  Why did Dean wake up in a field of flowers that were out of season in ep 1? I have enjoyed three eps:  Baby, Bobby and Mildred/Eileen ones.  The rest of this has been pretty bad, and My Happy Few deserves a Razzie.  I have been trying to think of an episode that was worse than this one.  Thoughts?  Could it possibly be that Dean has been in a coma?

That was my original/speculation that Dean specifically has been off. I've said hallucinations/alternate timelines/spell by Rowen/Metatron shenanigans. I've not really given that up at all myself but I just stopped bringing in every moment I thought Dean was not right. But since you bring it up.

IMO Dean was way weird in this weeks episode. Just like he was weird in the early part of the season. I'll just be laughing my ass off if my spec turns out to be correct. I mean I did call Sam taking on the Mark again, even when most folks thought I was nuts....just sayin   ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Binns]

That promo is amazing. Fair amount of Sam in there though it seemed to be more reaction shots. It makes me excited for the finale so they had better not let me down! 

[catrox14]

11 minutes ago, Binns said:

That promo is amazing. Fair amount of Sam in there though it seemed to be more reaction shots. It makes me excited for the finale so they had better not let me down! 

I'm not taking it off the table that it will be joint sacrifice. I don't believe the Mark is a done deal for Sam. I bet it's just in remission because it wasn't actually removed from his arm that I could see. Not like when it was zapped off Dean's arm. 

[McKinley]

Did anyone catch all of the lyrics to the Sacrificio video?  Edited to remove my guess at the lyrics -- a Google search turned up that the lyrics are a poem:

Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries by A.E. Housman

These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled, 
Followed their mercenary calling, 
And took their wages, and are dead. 

Their shoulders held the sky suspended; 
They stood, and earth's foundations stay; 
What God abandoned, these defended, 
And saved the sum of things for pay. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by McKinley

[catrox14]

I've been thinking about Jared bringing up Sam's demon blood thing a while back on Twitter and having said  at cons that "We may or may not be seeing what OTHER things the Mark could do"  

So I'm calling it now.

Sam having the Mark on him even for 30 seconds is going to reboot any latent demon powers he might have. The Mark didn't actually do anything to Sam thus far but since Dean is no longer a part of the MoC storyline, then it has to be about Sam. IMO they didn't put it on him just to make sure it's a dead SL.

[MysteryGuest]

The Mark was removed from Sam's arm when it went back on Amara.  He didn't even fully receive the Mark.  She stopped the transition as soon as she realized that God was going to trap her again instead of kill her.  

That was a lovely video and I can only hope that the finale is as moving as that was.  

Maybe this entire season has been a dream and Dean was actually looking at the face of God...the real God.  Who knows...

Edited May 20, 2016 by MysteryGuest

[catrox14]

Just now, MysteryGuest said:

The Mark was removed from Sam's arm when it went back on Amara.  He didn't even fully receive the Mark.  She stopped the transition as soon as she realized that God was going to trap her again instead of kill her.  

That was a lovely video and I can only hope that the finale is as moving as that was.  

It might only take a moment for  something as powerful as the Mark of Cain to trigger powers in someone who had demon powers and used them; who was addicted to demon blood and was Lucifer's Chosen Vessel.

Since Jared has no poker face about Sam's SL and rarely discusses Dean's SLs and Jared has brought up both demon blood and the Mark. IMO those things are related. I'm standing by my prediction.

[SueB]

I legit shouted out "NO!" when the damn thing started with wee Dean carrying baby Sam. 

And those lyrics... haunting.  I really want  a full transcript.  Hopefully someone is working it because I JUST got off work and haven't had time to do more than watch once.

Just now, catrox14 said:

It might only take a moment for  something as powerful as the Mark of Cain to trigger powers in someone who had demon powers and used them; who was addicted to demon blood and was Lucifer's Chosen Vessel.

Since Jared has no poker face about Sam's SL and rarely discusses Dean's SLs and Jared has brought up both demon blood and the Mark. IMO those things are related. I'm standing by my prediction.

Did Jared truly bring it up or did he respond to a question.  BIG difference.  I don't remember BTW.

[7kstar]

Some of the things brought up in the last ep, seems like a big did you catch it?

Rowena looking up at, my guess God.  The idea of going back in time.  Dean being the fireball.  Also don't forget the ep where Dean on the inside and Sam on the outside but had to time it just right in order for it to work.    For some reasons I'm thinking about mystery spot, where the clock keeps getting turned back.  What if they are trying to get back to before Dean kills Death?

I suspect there are so many interesting moments that if used the depth of the show, it could really surprise and please the fans.  I just wonder if they have really planned this through instead of just throwing some ideas against the wall to see what will stick.  I'm hoping for a plan and not just pulling something out of the rabbit's hat and hope it sticks. 

[SueB]

Personally, I'm firmly convinced that last night's episode would play much better as part of a binge watch.  I think we've got a four part finale, starting with EP20, and last night being the calm before the storm (despite the huge battle montage).

[Goldmoon]

Didn't they say Dean was a "firewall" not a "fireball"?

[catrox14]

1 minute ago, SueB said:

Did Jared truly bring it up or did he respond to a question.  BIG difference.  I don't remember BTW.

He brought up the demon blood question on Twitter and a great debate ensued.

I don't see what difference it makes whether he was answering a specific question or a general one, the answer is what matters IMO. IIRC it was more of a general question about anything they could tease about upcoming episodes. Jared specifically answered with the Mark of Cain and Jensen totally NOPED out of the question and looked shocked that Jared has said anything at all. 

3 minutes ago, Goldmoon said:

Didn't they say Dean was a "firewall" not a "fireball"?

Yes they said he was the firewall...but that doesn't eliminate him being a fireballwall. LOL

[Omegamom]

"Fireballwall"!  Hee!

Many many fans are pissed that the show didn't even mention Sam's possible emotional reaction to Lucifer.  I wrote a thing with the emotions inserted, plus a "behind the scenes" snippet between Sam and Dean, and the hits are flying through the roof on Fanfiction.net and many happy comments on Archive of Our Own.

So, is the poem a hint?  Is it going to be both Sam and Dean?

[SueB]

1 hour ago, McKinley said:

Did anyone catch all of the lyrics to the Sacrificio video?  Edited to remove my guess at the lyrics -- a Google search turned up that the lyrics are a poem:

Epitaph on an Army of Mercenaries by A.E. Housman

These, in the day when heaven was falling,
The hour when earth's foundations fled, 
Followed their mercenary calling, 
And took their wages, and are dead. 

Their shoulders held the sky suspended; 
They stood, and earth's foundations stay; 
What God abandoned, these defended, 
And saved the sum of things for pay. 

Thanks for finding this! 

"What God abandoned, these defended"

seems relevant to me!

16 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

He brought up the demon blood question on Twitter and a great debate ensued.

I don't see what difference it makes whether he was answering a specific question or a general one, the answer is what matters IMO. IIRC it was more of a general question about anything they could tease about upcoming episodes. Jared specifically answered with the Mark of Cain and Jensen totally NOPED out of the question and looked shocked that Jared has said anything at all. 

Yes they said he was the firewall...but that doesn't eliminate him being a fireballwall. LOL

I think context matters.  Examples:

- If Jared tweeted one day, out of the blue, with no prompting or question that he responded to.... "I wonder if Sam will get those demon powers back...hmmmm", that would seem to me to be a spoiler.

- If Jared tweeted one day, in response to a question along the lines of "what storyline would you like to revisit?" and he said "demon powers", then it's just a comment about his favorite plot.  Jensen has commented on liking the Purgatory plot...doesn't mean we are going there.

- If some asked a question along the lines of 'how do you think Amara will be defeated' and he responded 'maybe those demon powers will help', then I'd be back to it's a spoiler thing...

So, I don't know what he actually said and if it was prompted or a response.  I've just got 'Jared tweeted about demon blood.", tough to say that's definitively a spoiler or definitively NOT a spoiler.  In sum, I missed the debate so I really don't see how it's a spoiler without some additional info. 

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Omegamom said:

"Fireballwall"!  Hee!

Many many fans are pissed that the show didn't even mention Sam's possible emotional reaction to Lucifer.  I wrote a thing with the emotions inserted, plus a "behind the scenes" snippet between Sam and Dean, and the hits are flying through the roof on Fanfiction.net and many happy comments on Archive of Our Own.

So, is the poem a hint?  Is it going to be both Sam and Dean?

I've settled on this just being something Sam pushed aside and carried on for the sake of the mission OR he really is NOT suffering trauma from it. Maybe Sam will have more emotions in a future episode once the dust settles, some delayed reactions like the the nightmares he had of killing Kevin that we never knew about until the finale of s9.

[catrox14]

2 minutes ago, SueB said:

Thanks for finding this! 

"What God abandoned, these defended"

seems relevant to me!

I think context matters.  Examples:

- If Jared tweeted one day, out of the blue, with no prompting or question that he responded to.... "I wonder if Sam will get those demon powers back...hmmmm", that would seem to me to be a spoiler.

- If Jared tweeted one day, in response to a question along the lines of "what storyline would you like to revisit?" and he said "demon powers", then it's just a comment about his favorite plot.  Jensen has commented on liking the Purgatory plot...doesn't mean we are going there.

- If some asked a question along the lines of 'how do you think Amara will be defeated' and he responded 'maybe those demon powers will help', then I'd be back to it's a spoiler thing...

So, I don't know what he actually said and if it was prompted or a response.  I've just got 'Jared tweeted about demon blood.", tough to say that's definitively a spoiler or definitively NOT a spoiler.  In sum, I missed the debate so I really don't see how it's a spoiler without some additional info. 

 

I didn't say that he spoiled anything about demon blood. He asked fandom the question. It's all on twitter. I'm not pulling this out of my ass LOL. I fully acknowledge when I have WILD ASS SPEC. This was Jared inviting twitter folks to answer what they thought. Kevin Parks replied but the debate went on with no answer in the end. That's not a spoiler. I never said it was. But I certainly noted it.

But the Mark of Cain for Sam,yeah I will call that a spoiler but Jared was being clever about it. Again, I'd have to find the con video but I'm pretty sure they were in the middle of filming the last 3 or 4 episodes so Jared had already seen the script for 11.22 so he knew it was coming. And as soon as he said anything he tried to walk it back saying...I'm gonna get fired or something to that effect.

Of course, I said right out of the gate Sam would get the Mark and my reasons are still the same. In fact, I think I even speculated that Dean having had it once would eliminate him being able to get it again. I need to find my comments on that. 

And it's MY spec that Sam didn't get the Mark just to not have it mean something for Sam.

[SueB]

31 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

 

I didn't say that he spoiled anything about demon blood. He asked fandom the question. It's all on twitter. I'm not pulling this out of my ass LOL. I fully acknowledge when I have WILD ASS SPEC. This was Jared inviting twitter folks to answer what they thought. Kevin Parks replied but the debate went on with no answer in the end. That's not a spoiler. I never said it was. But I certainly noted it.

But the Mark of Cain for Sam,yeah I will call that a spoiler but Jared was being clever about it. Again, I'd have to find the con video but I'm pretty sure they were in the middle of filming the last 3 or 4 episodes so Jared had already seen the script for 11.22 so he knew it was coming. And as soon as he said anything he tried to walk it back saying...I'm gonna get fired or something to that effect.

Of course, I said right out of the gate Sam would get the Mark and my reasons are still the same. In fact, I think I even speculated that Dean having had it once would eliminate him being able to get it again. I need to find my comments on that. 

And it's MY spec that Sam didn't get the Mark just to not have it mean something for Sam.

Got it. I understand. 

Personally, I think the writers gave Sam the Mark for a hot minute just to yank the audience's chain. Surely they're aware of the bitter cakes many have over S5. I'd be surprised if they didn't know this was a big worry for some. So the did it and took it away. But it certainly leaves the door open for future shenanigans. 

[DittyDotDot]

I could not agree more, SueB, as to why they pretended to give the Mark to Sam for a hot minute. Dean's "babysitting" comment after spoke volumes to me as well. TBH, I feel like the show has maybe went a bit too far out of it's way to do this quite a few times the last couple episodes. I've been known to utter, "Enough already. Stop trying to mess with the fans and tell your damn story!" a few times since Chuck's reappearance. 

[catrox14]

LOL quoting myself from April. I was pretty darn close. The only thing I got wrong was Dean being declared "tainted" by God or if Sam being a Cain descendent mattered.

 

On Saturday, April 16, 2016 at 11:10 AM, catrox14 said:

 

BUT  since Jared was the one talking about the Mark at cons about other things it could do it must involve Sam in some way.  And I'm wondering if the Mark upon being removed from a former bearer means that it can't be put back on. and it has to go to the next in the Cain line....and that would be Sam. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by catrox14

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, catrox14 said:

It might only take a moment for  something as powerful as the Mark of Cain to trigger powers in someone who had demon powers and used them; who was addicted to demon blood and was Lucifer's Chosen Vessel.

Since Jared has no poker face about Sam's SL and rarely discusses Dean's SLs and Jared has brought up both demon blood and the Mark. IMO those things are related. I'm standing by my prediction.

I got burned last season with some speculation that since Jensen really liked the finale, it couldn't be that bad for Sam's storyline, because Jensen wouldn't be all in if Sam's character was going to be dinged, so I dared to be hopeful... and then Sam literally started an apocalypse (which was either what I had predicted or worse). With all of the usual warnings from everyone just to make sure it was extra-specially Sam's fault. So much for Sam's character not getting dinged. Bah.

I'm going to stick with my Sam got the mark of Cain for a hot minute so that that's off the table as an option for the finale speculation. That way I can be pleasantly surprised if something interesting happens for Sam. Also I can't wrap my head around Sam having any latent demon blood left in him to be "woken up". If the trials didn't "purify" it out of him, I can't see how Gadreel in his body, healing him, didn't burn it away. That's two things in two seasons that should have taken the demon blood away. I could see his soul being tainted by being Lucifer's vessel, but his blood still having demon blood in it, no. Not after Gadreel. Angel and demon are generally not things that mix for any length of time, and Gadreel was in Sam's body for quite a while.

I think last episode was likely pretty much Sam's "heroic moment" and now that that's over with, the show can get on to the real story. If I'm wrong and Sam plays a significant role*, I'll be pleasantly surprised (and happy to be wrong), because it's been a long time since Sam's been directly involved in bringing down a big enemy. The closest he's come since the season 5 finale was rescuing Kevin and blowing up the tainted sweetener (offscreen) in season 7.

* And killing people and/or harvesting their souls doesn't count, because I'm still in the "That is so wrong" camp... It doesn't even count for me if the people are already dead, because that might even be worse if they have no choice. What's going to happen to their souls in this bomb? Nothing good I speculate, so... I still hate this potential plot development.

[SueB]

I honestly felt Sam's big hero moment was in the mid-season opener, when he conquered his fear regarding Lucifer.  That was some real character growth. Plus honestly, Sam has been on-point IMO, all season long.  It was Sam's idea to start taking more risks and ensuring the "saving people" was brought back.  Sam turned Dean around on the "let each other choose" bit.  Dean HATED the "Sam take the Mark" plan, but he was ready to go there.  Sam has learned how to work with an often teetchy brother and now Dean is communicating more than he EVER has.  Seriously, I think Sam's character growth this year has been fan-freakin'-tastic.  So, honestly, I don't need another Big Damn Hero moment because Sam's kinda been wearing that suit all season.  I think Dean has as well but he's had the "I'm back benching due to my inability to deal with Amara" monkey on his back.  So, while it's not nearly as significant as facing Lucifer, I think Dean feeling in control of how he deals with Amara would be a good "win" for him. 

I get some feel that there's a "score" here (who was the bigger hero, who had the best arc, etc...) but I think both brothers are looking like Big Damn Heroes and I couldn't be more proud of them. 

**my bias: I also had no issue with the-episode-that-causes-too-much-bitterness-to-be-discussed because I'm a fan of Yellow Crayon* speech victories.

*Yellow Crayon speech: When Xander talked Willow out of crushing the planet in Buffy the Vampire Slayer (in case there are folks who don't get that reference).

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, SueB said:

I honestly felt Sam's big hero moment was in the mid-season opener, when he conquered his fear regarding Lucifer.  That was some real character growth. Plus honestly, Sam has been on-point IMO, all season long.  It was Sam's idea to start taking more risks and ensuring the "saving people" was brought back.  Sam turned Dean around on the "let each other choose" bit.  Dean HATED the "Sam take the Mark" plan, but he was ready to go there.  Sam has learned how to work with an often teetchy brother and now Dean is communicating more than he EVER has.  Seriously, I think Sam's character growth this year has been fan-freakin'-tastic.  So, honestly, I don't need another Big Damn Hero moment because Sam's kinda been wearing that suit all season.  I think Dean has as well but he's had the "I'm back benching due to my inability to deal with Amara" monkey on his back.  So, while it's not nearly as significant as facing Lucifer, I think Dean feeling in control of how he deals with Amara would be a good "win" for him. 

I thought that as well... That Sam saying "No" was a big moment. Unfortunately, I thought that it got muddled a bit with the plot snag where Sam made the decision to go even though he couldn't get in touch with Dean when he had promised to wait... and of course it went south - because it generally does when Sam does something like that: like the plot has to punish Sam if he goes against Dean's wishes. And it's sort of annoying in a way that it almost always happens. Just one time significant, I'd like to see Sam say "screw it, I'm doing it anyway!" and have it not turn out horribly. Just one time. (Which is why I smiled at your "take more risks" thing up there. Often when Sam takes risks, the show generally rewards him with awful things happening. *see also below.*)

But otherwise, yes, I agree that Sam has had some good character growth... except for that sometimes going back on his promises to Dean thing. (Maybe if it didn't always turn out wrong, it might not seem like such a flaw.)

Quote

 

I get some feel that there's a "score" here (who was the bigger hero, who had the best arc, etc...) but I think both brothers are looking like Big Damn Heroes and I couldn't be more proud of them. 

**my bias: I also had no issue with the-episode-that-causes-too-much-bitterness-to-be-discussed because I'm a fan of Yellow Crayon* speech victories.

*Yellow Crayon speech: When Xander talked Willow out of crushing the planet in Buffy the Vampire Slayer (in case there are folks who don't get that reference).

 

If you are referring to "Swan Song," I actually liked that episode a lot. However, weirdly, I loathed the Buffy episode with the "Yellow Crayon Speech" (YCS for short) for so many reasons. Just don't get me started. I thought that "Supernatural" did it better. I especially liked the twist that Dean's presence (The YCS equivalent), instead of breaking through to Sam, instead gave Sam strength while at the same time hitting the villain where it hurt - his ego - and allowing for that to be exploited. For me, that was more complex and unexpected than Xander "getting through" to Willow so she regains her humanity at the last moment and stops her dastardly deeds.

And for me it's not so much "keeping score." I am perfectly fine with Sam being in the supportive roll - IF (and see what I did there, making it a big "if") the writers would stop making Sam start the apocalypses in the first place and make a huge deal out of that fact in the process. This last time, it went even past "well, he meant well" and completely into reckless territory - and an unrepentant reckless territory at that. And unfortunately in general, if Sam is reckless, huge, awful things happen. It's like he's cursed that way.

So basically if Sam doesn't have a role in fixing it, it seems not that he's not getting a big hero moment, but that Dean has to once again "clean up his messes" - which ironically (or maybe not so), they had demon Dean hit Sam with last season. That's the kind of thing that kind of tips the scales and muddies the message for me. I get it if others don't feel the same way though.

[Demented Daisy]

@SueB, do those pictures of the courtyard/garden remind you of anything?  ;-)

[SueB]

Train station?

[Demented Daisy]

Well, the courtyard was a clue.  ;-)

If you play the Lego game, it'll look very familiar:

 

I know, I know.  It's a sickness.

[NoWillToResist]

35 minutes ago, Demented Daisy said:

Well, the courtyard was a clue.  ;-)

If you play the Lego game, it'll look very familiar:

 

I know, I know.  It's a sickness.

Heh. I have a LEGO game obsession and when I saw the set pics, I was all "that looks just like..."  :D

Is it weird that I feel mostly disinterested in how this season finale will shake out? Since it's not the series finale, we know that neither Sam nor Dean will actually die, so any time one of their fates is dangled in front of us, I'm all *shrug* 'whatever'. I literally can't muster up the energy to speculate about the whole 'soul bomb' thing and whatnot because again, when referring to Sam or Dean, there are no actual stakes here. Neither will die (or stay dead). So whatever fuckery TPTB pull out of their ass is just a giant ball of "whatever, folks" to me. (

Cas dying would be devastating but I can't help but feel, in a mercenary way, that TPTB can't afford to let him go and so nothing would be permanent anyway.

Equally, part of me hopes that they do finally pull their proverbial trigger on that because then I can finally, officially, check out of this fucking show...

Edited May 20, 2016 by NoWillToResist

[Demented Daisy]

20 minutes ago, NoWillToResist said:

Heh. I have a LEGO game obsession and when I saw the set pics, I was all "that looks just like..."  :D

Oh, thank Chuck it's not just me!  I was starting to worry.  ;-)

[DittyDotDot]

22 minutes ago, NoWillToResist said:

Heh. I have a LEGO game obsession and when I saw the set pics, I was all "that looks just like..."  :D

Is it weird that I feel mostly disinterested in how this season finale will shake out? Since it's not the series finale, we know that neither Sam nor Dean will actually die, so any time one of their fates is dangled in front of us, I'm all *shrug* 'whatever'. I literally can't muster up the energy to speculate about the whole 'soul bomb' thing and whatnot because again, when referring to Sam or Dean, there are no actual stakes here. Neither will die (or stay dead). So whatever fuckery TPTB pull out of their ass is just a giant ball of "whatever, folks" to me. (

Cas dying would be devastating but I can't help but feel, in a mercenary way, that TPTB can't afford to let him go and so nothing would be permanent anyway.

Equally, part of me hopes that they do finally pull their proverbial trigger on that because then I can finally, officially, check out of this fucking show...

The only think I'm interested in is getting Luci out of Cass. Whatever else happens, happens, but I want Cass back for real. This is getting ridiculous, IMO!

[Wynne88]

Quote

I get some feel that there's a "score" here (who was the bigger hero, who had the best arc, etc...) . .

Ya think???  That debate goes on and on, rehashed endlessly with the same old arguments.  You made me laugh with how guilelessly you said it, though..

I think my biggest problem is simply that this fight is so big, so far above their pay grade, that it's hard to feel it's personal for Sam and Dean.  Maybe that's why they tried to build in this attraction between Dean and Amara, but they haven't connected the dots in such a way as to make me feel he really cares.  It doesn't make sense that they can prevail in a fight that God himself can't win.  But the alternative, that they stand around as observers watching the fight between the big boys (and girl), would suck as well.  

I just hope that next year they scale it back instead of trying to top even this.  There can be personal type cliff-hangers that wouldn't involve one of them dying (again) or having a big blow out that results in them stomping away from each other angry and hurt.  

[catrox14]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

The only think I'm interested in is getting Luci out of Cass. Whatever else happens, happens, but I want Cass back for real. This is getting ridiculous, IMO!

Amara took Lucifer out of Cas in 11.22.  We saw his face come flying out. Cas is back I'm pretty sure.

[NoWillToResist]

1 hour ago, Demented Daisy said:

Oh, thank Chuck it's not just me!  I was starting to worry.  ;-)

Ahem. Off the top of my head, I own: Lego Indiana Jones, Lego Jurassic World/Park, Lego Harry Potter years 1-4 and 5-7 (or however they were split), Lego Avengers, Lego Pirates of the Caribbean, Lego Batman, Lego Star Wars, Lego Hobbit, Lego Lord of the Rings, and I have already planned to buy Lego Force Awakens when it comes out this summer. So I think it's safe to say that you are not alone... :D

[NoWillToResist]

1 hour ago, DittyDotDot said:

The only think I'm interested in is getting Luci out of Cass. Whatever else happens, happens, but I want Cass back for real. This is getting ridiculous, IMO!

I gotta say, TPTB must be patting themselves on the back with this story line. They gave Misha a plot which put him on screen for a large part of the season and all without giving the audience any "destiel" business because Cas was AWOL.

That said, I do very much appreciate that, in Cas' absence, a lot of attention was given to Dean missing Cas and working hard to bring him back. I know in prior seasons, it used to piss me off that Cas was treated as 'out of sight, out of mind'. I used to wonder why they couldn't spare 2 seconds here and there at the start of a scene where Dean is ending a call by saying "ok, bye Cas" or whatever, to at least show that they are still in contact with their alleged friend/brother/ally. But I'd become so used to Cas not even getting a mention when he wasn't around that I was floored - and thrilled - to see that rectified in the latter half of this season.

I am concerned that the segment of the fandom which is reading Dean's reactions as "OMG, my boyfriend!" will scare TPTB off from bothering from doing this in the future...

[SueB]

6 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Well, the courtyard was a clue.  ;-)

If you play the Lego game, it'll look very familiar:

 

I know, I know.  It's a sickness.

No, it's perfect!

[catrox14]

3 hours ago, NoWillToResist said:

I gotta say, TPTB must be patting themselves on the back with this story line. They gave Misha a plot which put him on screen for a large part of the season and all without giving the audience any "destiel" business because Cas was AWOL.

That said, I do very much appreciate that, in Cas' absence, a lot of attention was given to Dean missing Cas and working hard to bring him back. I know in prior seasons, it used to piss me off that Cas was treated as 'out of sight, out of mind'. I used to wonder why they couldn't spare 2 seconds here and there at the start of a scene where Dean is ending a call by saying "ok, bye Cas" or whatever, to at least show that they are still in contact with their alleged friend/brother/ally. But I'd become so used to Cas not even getting a mention when he wasn't around that I was floored - and thrilled - to see that rectified in the latter half of this season.

I am concerned that the segment of the fandom which is reading Dean's reactions as "OMG, my boyfriend!" will scare TPTB off from bothering from doing this in the future...

I've certainly had occasion to read it as "OMG my boyfriend" but so what? I know it will never be canon. Most Destiel shippers know it won't be canon. That isn't going to stop my occasional Destiel shipping.

If TPTB are seeking to quell the Destiel shipping by contriving ways to keep Dean and Cas apart, and then NO HOMO the crap out of it when they are together, the more they bring attention to the Destiel of it all, because it's obvious that's what they are doing. LOL It's like, 'ICWYDT' but it's not going to change everything I've seen and how I interpret their relationship. AND NO this is not about sex. It's just about how I see their relationship.  But that's just me. No one has to agree with me. And no one is going to be successful with trying to shame me or disprove my interpretation :). Same with Dean and Donna. I ship the crap out of them with even LESS to go on. LOL  So there you go.

Edited May 20, 2016 by catrox14

[call me ishmael]

7 hours ago, Demented Daisy said:

Well, the courtyard was a clue.  ;-)

If you play the Lego game, it'll look very familiar:

 

I know, I know.  It's a sickness.

Well, if you are correct and it means something then perhaps her link with Dean is the only thing keeping Amara in the universe and if they break it they can drive the Darkness out...

[McKinley]

My complaint is how vague this link between Dean and Amara is - we have no idea what is causing it and we have no idea what, if anything, happens should Dean manage to break it.  All that we know is it makes him attracted to her and it makes it difficult for him to harm her when he’s in her presence.  But it doesn’t prevent him from plotting to harm her when she’s not present, and it doesn’t even make it impossible for him to try to harm her - he already made a direct attempt to stab her and was only unable to do so because the knife shattered (presumably because she destroyed it).  

We also know that it makes her attracted to him, and possibly in love with him.  I find it disappointing that this wasn’t explored further - after all, she mocks god’s creation as just being there to stroke his ego.  Yet Dean is a part of that creation and she finds something valuable about him.  Why couldn’t that open her eyes to seeing value in the broader creation?  

On May 19, 2016 at 4:08 PM, Aeryn13 said:

Hm, what is this ending shot with Dean looking up at the sky? He is in the garden where he meets Amara. And where Chuck and Amara also meet again. I just hope this is not some gigantic fake-out and Dean is looking at them how they are both basically "flying away". 

I think that might be exactly what Dean is looking at.  Chuck will sacrifice himself.  He will agree to go off with Amara if she will agree to spare his creation.  But then, what would be the cliffhanger?

Edited May 21, 2016 by McKinley

[SueB]

1 hour ago, McKinley said:

My complaint is how vague this link between Dean and Amara is - we have no idea what is causing it and we have no idea what, if anything, happens should Dean manage to break it.  All that we know is it makes him attracted to her and it makes it difficult for him to harm her when he’s in her presence.  But it doesn’t prevent him from plotting to harm her when she’s not present, and it doesn’t even make it impossible for him to try to harm her - he already made a direct attempt to stab her and was only unable to do so because the knife shattered (presumably because she destroyed it).  

We also know that it makes her attracted to him, and possibly in love with him.  I find it disappointing that this wasn’t explored further - after all, she mocks god’s creation as just being there to stroke his ego.  Yet Dean is a part of that creation and she finds something valuable about him.  Why couldn’t that open her eyes to seeing value in the broader creation?  

I think that might be exactly what Dean is looking at.  Chuck will sacrifice himself.  He will agree to go off with Amara if she will agree to spare his creation.  But then, what would be the cliffhanger?

It think the part in bold (above) is precisely what God was after:
- God made the Mark as Lock and Key. So God made the thing that is connecting Amara and Dean.
- God even nods towards Dean in this last episode and makes the point about His creation's value.
- Amara said "it didn't have to be this way" as God was trying to lock her back up. She'd rather die than be caged.
- She's stated she's destroying God's creation to hurt God. If he was dead, I don't think she would get as much satisfaction. Although she's got a lot of justifiable rage plus God's creations JUST banded together to lock her back up.

So, I think Dean IS the argument for humanity. And look at the hint in this last episode - she got a soft look on her face seeing the picture of Mary and wee Dean.  And we know Mary Winchester appears in the finale.  So, if there's a solution, I think it doesn't involve her leaving Dean alone.  I think she'll be willing to meet with him, knowing it could be a trap, because she wants Dean to be "one" with her -- whatever the hell THAT means.  Whatever Dean makes her feel... she doesn't want to lose that.  She wants to keep feeling those feels.  So, I think her going away with God is not going to be the finale solution.  I don't know what Dean is looking at... but it's hard to see Amara's happy ever after is to go off with God at this juncture.  

Then there's the soul bomb theory.  This could be yet another failed attack (another Hitler's briefcase).  OR there's something about these things more than just raw power.  I feel like I need to plumb the "Sacrificio" trailer for more clues....