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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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catrox14

catrox14

 

Plus you have fans that won't stick with storytelling that expands over a whole season, so that group think is there

 

 Viewers stuck with the entire s1-5 especially s4&5 mytharcs (no matter the outcome). By most accounts those are the most popular and well thought of seasons, so I would totally disagree with that perception that it's the inattention from viewers for expanded storytelling.

 

If that is what Carver and Singer believe then they are bigger dopes than I thought. What I could see is dopey network interference that is always concerned about new viewers who aren't as up on the mythology so they pressure the show to make it more accessible for casual viewer, which I personally think is a HUGE mistake but maybe that's a caveat to keeping it on the air. Why it's more obviously formulaic now than before. Or it's just lazy writing. I dunno.  Just some speculation on my part.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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SueB

SueB

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So I just had an interesting experience that makes me go hmmm.

I'm at the Michigan vs Maryland game. And I sent a text to my family to watch me in Periscope. Only 1 managed the tech (oh well). In the meantime 52 random strangers joined my 'broadcast' simply because I references the game in the title (I suppose). But I never had more than 9 at one time. Which means shifting audience. That many checked it out. A few stayed for a few minutes but my 'audience' was never a constant. I wonder if that's how the writers see it. The number of new viewers is pretty big (based on Con and Social Media feedback). so either they are not watching broadcast (while being a Neilsen family) or are watching online. Either way, I think that as to have some influence on writing. Why sometimes it's simple and other times has more layers. I think they have to walk a balance.

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7kstar

7kstar

(edited)

 Viewers stuck with the entire s1-5 especially s4&5 mytharcs (no matter the outcome). By most accounts those are the most popular and well thought of seasons, so I would totally disagree with that perception that it's the inattention from viewers for expanded storytelling.

 

If that is what Carver and Singer believe then they are bigger dopes than I thought. What I could see is dopey network interference that is always concerned about new viewers who aren't as up on the mythology so they pressure the show to make it more accessible for casual viewer, which I personally think is a HUGE mistake but maybe that's a caveat to keeping it on the air. Why it's more obviously formulaic now than before. Or it's just lazy writing. I dunno.  Just some speculation on my part.

I'm talking in general.  There have been many shows that have bit the dust because the formula required the audience to watch ep to ep to get what the heck is going on,  SP has always had many self contained eps.   I'm sure the pressure to expand from horror only fans is there.  I'm not a horror fan and never will be.  I don't watch Horror movies and never will go to them, Period.  

 

Even Jensen is not enough to make me go.  :) 

 

I'm watching a show right now, which I expect this is it's last season.  The writer doesn't get it's audience. 

 

SP has an advantage.  New young viewers, when I talk about SP & Jensen in class, some love the show supernatural.  A few years ago, I didn't have that reaction.  How people watch is changing, period.  Sometimes that helps this show.  :)

Edited by 7kstar
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catrox14

catrox14

LOL. That is hilarious. I'm not gonna be cynical and say it was all on purpose. I'm gonna say that the CW was compelled to sign on because that promo blew every promo they ever did out of the water and they can't look like they were caught off guard. 

 

That's my head!canon and I'm sticking to it. 

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Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

(edited)

That was a fucking awesome trailer. I just glanced through the comments but it sounds like the SPN crew made their own trailer since The CW didn't release one. I also saw the link to the original "Oh, Death" trailer, IIRC that one was self produced as well. Both were excellent trailers

Edited by Morrigan2575
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catrox14

catrox14

I just rewatched the original and the one the CW co-opted. They cut out a few scenes. LOL. And they made it worse by having it merge with that stupid title card (which PLEASE don't let that be the actual title card for this season) PLEASE

 

I hope the title card is just the word Supernatural all in black overlaying a grey background. 

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

(edited)

[snip]...but the promos tries so godamn hard to convince you of a tonal shift for the show that I just don`t think will play out. Sure, maybe it`s dark and surreal for the first two episodes or two and a half but after that we`re back to MOTW and comedy standalones and all that. [snip]

 

Baring Season 4, they have never been able to sustain tension over the long haul or pace out their stories differently. And no, they can cut twenty promos together like that and I will still not believe that suddenly, out of the blue, the show will be like The Walking Dead or something. Which wouldn`t even be the problem, not every show needs to have one specific tone.

 

I`m certainly not expecting anything I just know the budget will just never allow. However, you can create a tonal shift within the show through writing. And to a certain degree through the way it`s lit, the atmosphere etc. 

 

I highly, highly doubt a little MTV show like Teen Wolf has a monster budget. And they did the same kind of "atmosphere" trailers before the new Season. It was promoted very much as darker, grimier, more surreal. Everything you can see the SPN promo wants to accomplish too. And lo and behold, the entire 11 episodes of the Teen Wolf Season were in that mood. So. in that, they accurately promoted the show.

 

And sustaining the tension is solely a writing issue IMO. Like I said, Season 4 managed to incorporate the throughline of the Season even into standalones reasonably well. Even Season 2 tried something like this with some success. They just never managed it in any other Seasons.

 

I don't know. For me, it can be a big  difference between maintaining a consistent tone - especially a dark one - over say 12 episodes versus 22 episodes. For me, as season 4 got towards the end, I found myself tiring of the relentless grimness. And it seemed that as the season progressed, they tried to keep upping the anti in order to keep the tone, so that by the time Sam and Dean were beating each other up, instead of feeling concerned or upset, part of me was glad they were beating the crap out of each other, because I felt the same way. I was sick and tired of the relentless tension and grimness of the show and of both Sam and Dean - and Cas, too at that point. So for me, the consistency of tone wasn't a plus. I think it was too many episodes of that for me and I was glad the season was over - while at the same time not being satisfied with how it ended either, because none of that frustration and tension the season built up was really resolved... it just got shifted over into another crisis and into more tension.

 

I also disagree that no other season besides season 4 and 2 managed to keep a consistent throughline or tone throughout the season. I thought season 5 did this to some extent with the horsemen, Zachariah, and the tension with Lucifer, and season 7 did it to an even greater extent in my opinion. I agree with ZennyKenny that season 7 did a good job of keeping a consistent emphasis on the Leviathans, even in the monster of the week episodes, and imo it did it in a way that wasn't just shoehorning it in either. I also thought that season 7 kept a consistent tone as well - actually it was two tones at the same time. While there was a grimness to the season with Dean's depression and Bobby's death, the writers also, in my opinion, maintained a certain dark comedic tone through most of the episodes. The Leviathans themselves, Frank, many of the monsters of the week - such as the feuding witches, the fake psychics, the booze monster, the Becky episode, the munched glampers, the landsharks, stabby unicorns, and the killer clowns, and the killer gramophone and porn mags  - all had a certain dark comedy to them. Even Sam's personal demon - his Lucifer hallucinations - had a darkly comedic tone. Some of it wasn't as successful as the rest, but in my opinion, the tone was there throughout most of the season... all the way through to the introduction of Kevin which also had many darkly comedic overtones. Even though the last two episodes were a little darker, they still managed to add a few darkly comedic elements - ghost Bobby "officing" out of the bathroom, Dean not being able to have his pie due to Sucrocorp, the stoned "blood donor" for Dean's vamptonite, the little jokes about Sister Mary Constant's bone, the "negotiation" between Crowley and Dick Roman, etc.

 

But even though I thought that was all very well done and appreciated the consistency of season 7 with both the threat (the Leviathan) being addressed and the consistent tones, a lot of people didn't, which I think lends some credence to this...

 

I'm talking in general.  There have been many shows that have bit the dust because the formula required the audience to watch ep to ep to get what the heck is going on,  SP has always had many self contained eps.   I'm sure the pressure to expand from horror only fans is there.  [snip]

 

SP has an advantage.  New young viewers, when I talk about SP & Jensen in class, some love the show supernatural.  A few years ago, I didn't have that reaction.  How people watch is changing, period.  Sometimes that helps this show.  :)

 

People's watching habits are changing. In general, I'm not sure that such things as consistency of tone or an overarching story are as important to younger viewers anymore. I remember a time when I was a teenager, quite a few of my friends - and even myself - watched a soap opera for a couple of years and kept up on the plots, etc. * I don't think that's nearly as common now.

 

* General Hospital was the most common. I was a weirdo in that I watched Guiding Light - there was an out there serial killer plot that was both awesome and insane. It was ahead of its time, I think, in that the serial killer ended up being a woman. In college I graduated to the even more out there and awesome Passions until it went totally off the rails in the final seasons. *sniff* Timmy.

 

So bottom line: I can see the show continuing on in the shifting tones it's had in the last few seasons in an attempt to keep interest up. Personally, I at least preferred the more subtle tone shifts of season 10 - even with the truncated demon Dean arc - than I did the midseason shift of say season 8. That season was so schizophrenic in my opinion, that it seemed more like two different seasons - or even two different shows. There was very little attempt, in my opinion, to even make the plot or tone connect between the first and second half of the season. Season 6 had a slightly similar problem in tone shift, but at least the soulless Sam and Lisa and Ben plots continued over into and had significance for the second half whereas except for a mention here and there, the purgatory and Amelia plotlines from the first half of the season were pretty much just dropped. Never mind that the tensions between Sam and Dean they kept up through the first half of season 8 just sort of went poof - "tension? What tension? Sam and Dean are just fine now. See all the supportive speeches and shit?" (Can you tell I really, really disliked season 8. Sorry, not sorry.)

 

So I think I would rather a truncated Darkness arc if they then take the time to properly build up the next arc. Cutting the season in half - like they did in season 8 - in my opinion, doesn't leave enough time for them to properly build and/or resolve either arc, and it results in a schizophrenic mess.

Edited by AwesomO4000
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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

 

I don't know. For me, it can be a big  difference between maintaining a consistent tone - especially a dark one - over say 12 episodes versus 22 episodes.

 

I`m not saying I want 23 episodes of unrelenting darkness. Shows like that usually are so draining, it takes some of the joy out of watching, even if all the episodes in and of themselves are spectacular. But I think the trailer is all "look, what an edgy show we`re making", it made me roll my eyes. No, you don`t. You are making a puff piece. Live with it.

 

However, I will stand by my assessment that besides Seasons 4 and somewhat 2, I never found any Season well-paced. Season 5 got off to a good start for 4 episodes and then drove off a cliff more or less. A good ending might have saved it but not my most hated TV episode of all time. Season 7, I can`t remember anything else from that Season than the mindnumbing boringness of it all. It was like standing in line in Crowley`s new hell for the entire Season.

 

Do I expect Season 11 to be like that? Nope. Because everything they already said - and in Dean`s case not said - tells me that it will fall on the offensive and hateful end of the spectrum, like Season 8.2, rather then the "is anything happening here?" of Season 7. If given a choice, I would choose boring but I`m not getting that choice obviously. 

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7kstar

7kstar

I had seen that and IA with Jensen, that an ep with God and Dean would be interesting.

I doubt they will do it.

 

For me even season 4 has had problems.  It felt like 4 is where the first half is Dean's then drop it, the second half is Sam's but it doesn't really go anywhere.  Hence my upset with the ending of season 10. 

 

Now that I expect the formula, I'll just enjoy the eps I like and skip the rest.  My attachment to the show will be dying unless they do something to surprise me.  But so far when I look at it, I'm not really surprised.  Dean killing Death was expected...how could he not when he had to choose Sam over Death? 

 

I watch Hawaii 5 0, the head writer was surprised when the viewers guessed at a storyline which he thought he was being ol so clever.  It was obvious, the question is when would it happen.  He tried waiting to see if he could make the fans forget, it didn't happen.  I sometimes wonder if that is the problem with SP as well.

 

They think they are being clever, surprising us, but don't realize how much more sophisticated the audience is with the ability to re-watch a show.

 

Showing my age..,.in the old days, you only saw it once.  Twice if you caught the rerun.  People can pause, rewind and rewatch over and over on issues that grab them.  Now add forums where people come to talk about what they are thinking and others add to it.

 

Wait add one more, fanfiction.  Where people can play with their ideas and write them out for others to read.

 

Hence you've got an really smart group of fans, young kids that are easily fooled and older fans that have seen it so many times on other shows.  How do you keep the fans?  How do you not re-thread an old story idea.  There is only one way.  Make it unique to the viewpoints of your lead characters.  Tying back into the roots of the show.  I wish they would do this, but I no longer expect it.  It just a fantasy that may have to show up in fanfiction.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Huh.  So I read something on Tumblr...

 

That Dean was struck by lightning when the Mark was removed from him. And I thought wait...  WHOAAAAA....I never even thought about that. But I guess that's basically true. So if Dean was struck by lightnin,  how was he not injured since he is theoretically fully human again? 

 

My brain kind of hurts now thinking about this.....

Edited by catrox14
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SueB

SueB

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Huh.  So I read something on Tumblr...

 

That Dean was struck by lightning when the Mark was removed from him. And I thought wait...  WHOAAAAA....I never even thought about that. But I guess that's basically true. So if Dean was struck by lightnin,  how was he not injured since he is theoretically fully human again? 

 

My brain kind of hurts now thinking about this.....

Well the lightening went straight for the Mark, so perhaps the Mark took the "hit".  

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catrox14

catrox14

I was just like well, okay, that happened without really thinking anymore about it. Obviously, it went after the Mark but we also saw the lightning punching holes in the ground that allowed the Darkness smoke or whatever to come out of the earth. I wonder what it was finding under the ground that it was drawn to.

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

(edited)

OMG did you guys seriously just speculate about assholes and dicks? No wonder poor Micklady and friends think we're all batshit crazy!

 

Jesus trxr4kids, you have no idea!

 

I'm just catching up, the NFL has distracted me of late. I read a few posts from here to Mick, and his comment?

 

"Why haven't any of these people been committed?"

 

He was serious.

Edited by Mick Lady
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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Jesus trxr4kids, you have no idea!

 

I'm just catching up, the NFL has distracted me of late. I read a few posts from here to Mick, and his comment?

 

"Why haven't any of these people been committed?"

 

He was serious.

 

You can tell Mick that they'd have to catch me first...

 

Plus I've somehow managed to convince my husband that I'm just a little eccentric.

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7kstar

7kstar

Jesus trxr4kids, you have no idea!

 

I'm just catching up, the NFL has distracted me of late. I read a few posts from here to Mick, and his comment?

 

"Why haven't any of these people been committed?"

 

He was serious.

It's because we got bored and had nothing else to think about.  :)  Why am I thinking "Catch me if you can."

 

Here I thought I was the sane one...but I have an excellent excuse...I teach middle school!

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I'm just catching up, the NFL has distracted me of late. I read a few posts from here to Mick, and his comment?

 

"Why haven't any of these people been committed?"

 

He was serious.

 

What makes you think we aren't currently committed? ;)

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

See, I knew this! You're all posting from an asylum. And middle school counts! 

 

I'm just surprised catrox14 hasn't chewed off the ankle bracelet yet.

 

I'm looking forward to finding out how right all your crazy ideas are. I'm more excited for tomorrow night than I was for the first NFL game! That's sayin' a lot!

 

If that is what Carver and Singer believe then they are bigger dopes than I thought. What I could see is dopey network interference that is always concerned about new viewers who aren't as up on the mythology so they pressure the show to make it more accessible for casual viewer, which I personally think is a HUGE mistake but maybe that's a caveat to keeping it on the air. Why it's more obviously formulaic now than before. Or it's just lazy writing. I dunno.  Just some speculation on my part.

 

 

This is what drives me nuts. I get that anyone casually checking out the show would be lost, and why the network wants it more accesible, that just makes sense. But what about us, the fans who have watched it from the pilot, or took the time to watch all 10 seasons? Half of the fun for us all is the mythology and following the canon. We all know the hundreds of characters and their stories, and we're invested! Damn it, what about us!?

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/s/supernatural-cast-showrunners-season-11-big-bad-darkness-150523322.html

 

Interesting bit:

 

"This is something we've never seen on the show before," Carver tells The Hollywood Reporter. "At the beginning, everyone knows that something very bad is out there, but the boys aren't sure what they're dealing with. To make it even more frightening, everyone from angels to demons don't know what they're dealing with, either. There's so little information about this thing out there in the universe. The show starts with a mystery in terms of what this thing is and what it wants. We take our time in building up our understanding of exactly that. It's going to have a pretty cool payoff."

 

 

And a challenge:

 

And co-executive producer Andrew Dabb promises that no one will be able to predict what The Darkness wants.

 

 

Uh huh.  Clearly, he's never ventured here.  ;-)

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Aeryn13

Aeryn13

(edited)

 

And co-executive producer Andrew Dabb promises that no one will be able to predict what The Darkness wants.

 

Financial compensation for a billion years of unlawful imprisonment and the original, unaltered Star Wars Trilogy released on Bluray. Also possibly a donut to go with it. 

Edited by Aeryn13
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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

Financial compensation for a billion years of unlawful imprisonment and the original, unaltered Star Wars Trilogy released on Bluray. Also possibly a donut to go with it. 

 

This made me bust a gut! Thanks Aeryn13!

I forgot to mention the title of the article made me let out a bit of an evil cackle:

 

'Supernatural' Cast, Showrunners on Season 11 Big Bad The Darkness: "We're Working Without a Playbook"

 

Yeah, we noticed.

 

Oh, ain't that the truth!

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

https://www.yahoo.com/movies/s/supernatural-cast-showrunners-season-11-big-bad-darkness-150523322.html

 

Interesting bit:

 

"This is something we've never seen on the show before," Carver tells The Hollywood Reporter. "At the beginning, everyone knows that something very bad is out there, but the boys aren't sure what they're dealing with. To make it even more frightening, everyone from angels to demons don't know what they're dealing with, either. There's so little information about this thing out there in the universe. The show starts with a mystery in terms of what this thing is and what it wants. We take our time in building up our understanding of exactly that. It's going to have a pretty cool payoff."

 

So, Jeremy Carver has never seen S7? That's pretty much S7 and how the Leviathans got introduced...

ETA: The Darkness probably doesn't want anything at all. Is it not just smoke?

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7kstar

7kstar

 

And co-executive producer Andrew Dabb??promises that no one will be able to predict what The Darkness wants.

 

"The Darkness is really a monolithic bad guy for us," Dabb tells THR. "She will have a particularly strong point of view that will come through and it's something that we can grow and develop over time into a fully-realized character. This person is going to be really scary, intimidating and wry like some of our best villains have been."

With their habit of throwing away really good opportunities...I'm very very doubtful.  But then again I'm not 12.  Perhaps this is the problem this statement is true for 12 years olds.  They are stuck thinking everyone thinks like a teenager.  Now that might be scary!!!

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

The Darkness wants a snuggie, a penlight and Carver's resignation letter or maybe I'm projecting.

 

Funny you say that.  I was just saying to a friend the other day that after the Carver years, part of me just wants the show to end.  But that would mean that Carver would decide how the series ends.

 

No!!!!  Please, dear Chuck, no!!!!!  ;-)

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trxr4kids

trxr4kids

(edited)

  But that would mean that Carver would decide how the series ends.

 

No!!!!  Please, dear Chuck, no!!!!!  ;-)

 I'm wondering why I've never pondered it before. I'm guessing subconscious denial or traumatic repression because at some point I realized the horror of this possibility coming to fruition. I may miss parts of the premiere because I'll be curled up in the corner in the fetal position in my snuggie, wailing why Chuck, why!

Edited by trxr4kids
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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

"That baby eats souls."

 

 

And I'm going to guess rapidly ages to become waif in EP6. 

 

I agree, but my husband thinks that God is slapping Marks on people all over the world, in the hopes that when they lock the Darkness away again, one of them will be worthy.  And won't be as corrupted because they all share the burden.

 

I told him that doesn't really work with canon and he just gave me a blank look and said, "So?"  I have to admit, he's got a point.

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SueB

SueB

  • Author

I find this description of EP4 to be fittingly hilarious (as if written by the Impala in it's simplicity):

 

SUPERNATURAL

“Baby” – (9:00-10:00 p.m. ET) (TV-14, DLV) (HDTV)

NOBODY PUTS BABY IN A CORNER — Seen entirely from the point of view of the Impala, Sam (Jared Padalecki) and Dean (Jensen Ackles) go on a road trip to fight monsters and demons.  Thomas J. Wright directed the episode written by Robbie Thompson (#1104)

 

Source: WinchesterBrothers http://www.winchesterbros.com/site/index.php/episodes/102-season-eleven-episodes/10794-baby

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

"That baby eats souls."

 

And I'm going to guess rapidly ages to become waif in EP6. 

 

I agree. And then full-on Amara as Dean saw her by EP8 or 9. I'm guessing Dean was having a premonition, of sorts, when he saw her in that field of smoke. 

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Forgot to mention: Ruth's tweet from the makeup trailer puts her in EP9.  So, Rowena is not dead. Not yet.

 

And then there's this gem:

http://www.pikore.com/m/1090982205729899880_1190699960

 

Which has been tweeted by so many sources I'm not sure who to credit

 

"Luci, I'm home!"... says WHO?

 

It's directly from someone on the production team's own instagram. I linked it a couple of spots up from your post.

Edited by catrox14
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

I guess that was Bob Singer that posted that pic initially

 

From Super Wiki Tumbler

Super Spoilery pic

Posted by Bob Singer who is directing episode 9 - O’ Brother, Where Art Thou?

Yes - this is what you think it is !!!!!

 

Edited by catrox14
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Omegamom

Omegamom

Cool. We get to see Adam, maybe?!? I'd actually like to see Lucifer, too.

So if the baby is Amara (The Darkness), why does she (SPOILER FROM PROMO FOR E02!) eat souls? Souls weren't around prior to creation, which is when The Ol' Darkaroo was imprisoned.

Prediction: Sam praying to God will cure him. That will be his sign.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Cool. We get to see Adam, maybe?!? I'd actually like to see Lucifer, too.

So if the baby is Amara (The Darkness), why does she (SPOILER FROM PROMO FOR E02!) eat souls? Souls weren't around prior to creation, which is when The Ol' Darkaroo was imprisoned.

Prediction: Sam praying to God will cure him. That will be his sign.

 

How do we know that souls didn't exist before then? Sorry I'm not following

 

If they actually go back to Adam, then I will be convinced this will be the last season of the show, because Hell will freeze over and our actual world will end.

Edited by catrox14
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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

(edited)

Did you honestly believe it wouldn't be a sex torture dungeon? 

 

Edited...Oops, never mind, just realized I misread your response. Yeah, of course it's a sex torture dungeon on this show. Sigh.

 

How do we know that souls didn't exist before then? Sorry I'm not following

 

Souls are unique to humans; God created humans after he created everything else. Ergo, souls did not exist before creation. That's if the show sticks with it's own mythology...I know, I'm laughing too. ;)

Edited by DittyDotDot
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