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Spoilers With Speculation

SueB

By SueB
in Supernatural

ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Now if she did kill herself, that means Dean killed the Stynes for nothing. I mean yes they killed other people but Dean's motivation is totally moot. (or moo tm Joey Tribianni).  That might be the thing that drives Dean to make a deal with Death, not just almost having killed Cas.

 

But they still would've at least indirectly caused her death. She wouldn't have killed herself unless there had been that threat . And did Charlie know about the organ harvesting? I can't remember if she knew that detail or only we (and Dean) did.

 

 

(or moo tm Joey Tribianni).

 

I've considered using that myself more than once. One of the silliest yet also clever explanations ever. "It's like a cow's opinion. It's 'moo.' " It works on multiple levels.

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PeterKahlke
PeterKahlke

NEXT ON SUPERNATURAL Sam and Dean search for the yellow-eyed thing that killed their mom.

devlin
devlin

I don’t care who JA is going to be playing. I could seriously watch this guy read the phone book and be completely enthralled. I am just looking forward to some powerhouse acting full of nuances by wh

gonzosgirrl
gonzosgirrl

So, so over it. You're a big boy - if you don't agree, put up or shut your judgey piehole.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

That is probably the greatest explanation of moot vs mute point I have ever seen. Joey Tribianni haters can step. He's wiser than we give him credit for.  I also imagine Joey and Dean being friends.


I


ETA: can't imagine Charlie didn't know about their grand plan. Sam knew so I don't see why he wouldn't have shared that with Charlie but maybe not.

I wasn't saying that the Stynes weren't responsible for her death at all. I'm saying that Dean might have been less inclined to go as far as he did, if she had taken her own life to avoid capture.  But then again....maybe it wouldn't have mattered either way. Just a ponderance I was having.

Edited by catrox14
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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Guys. I was just rewatching Inside Man.

 

Remember when the way out was through door number 42?  What if that isn't just a reference to Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? What if it's a hint to Episode 4.2...Are You There God, It's Me. Dean Winchester?

 

That's the first episode that Lucifer is mentioned in the series IIRC.

Edited by catrox14
Altered Reality

Altered Reality

Hey man, so far the only theory that panned it is Death dying.  But Dean hasn't become a reaper...yet...

 

I'm also holding out hope that it was Metatron mucking around and not Death being dead...because that just sucks.

Well, I'm not sure that's all that reassuring, but I'll take what I can get.

 

And I too am holding out hope that  was all some sort of fake-out, by Metatron or anyone else (Gabriel maybe, playing some really, really, really long con?)

7kstar

7kstar

okay which rinse and repeat was it, season 2, saved Sam but released the demons or season 5.

 

Is Jensen's hint when you see the boys working together to end the big bad then that will be the sign it is the last season? 

 

I guess this year it is me needing a reason why I should keep trying with this show besides the eye candy....  why does it feel as if it all came crashing to the ground.  I mean if the writers were good at planning and spacing out a storyline. 

 

I guess I should be grateful that Dean's story wasn't just thrown out and both boys look like fools now...really this is the best the show can do?

Zalyn

Zalyn

In dark of the S10 finale, my suspicion that the boys are going to end up entirely remaking the world, Neon Genesis Evangelion style, is buzzing again.  Each season they dig deeper into the structure of the world's mythos, and now they've gone beyond God's work to the chaos before Creation.  I mean, once you've killed Death, where else do you go? (He was potentially around before God, right?)  At the point that they're beating back the Darkness, they are literally doing the work that God did in Genesis; what will separate them from being gods themselves?  Or maybe they will play kingmakers and install Crowley and Castiel and retire on the beach instead...

 

(I originally posted in the unspoiled speculation thread b/c I wasn't sure what spoilers for next season would be here, but the main discussion seems to be here, so I've copypasta'd it)

7kstar

7kstar

 

Anyway, I got the impression Death and God created a certain balance in this universe, so this can't be a good thing right?

Okay we saw God or might be God in Fanfiction...so I wonder what if God felt it was his time and he needed to leave to try to escape death or he was tired of it all, felt he had given too much especially since Carver has added that the mark twisted his most precious soldier.

 

So with Death gone could it be time for God to reappear?

 

I still wonder if Death wasn't an illusion one created by a certain demon tablet.  Of course that would require some planning and connecting the dots so to speak....Argh I think I've gone mad!

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

I hope Death is sincerely dead. It pains me to say that because I do love me some Death, but I don't want them to come back next season with a gotcha. There needs to be real consequences for Sam and Dean on this one and I would feel cheated if Death isn't actually dead. I know I shouldn't encourage more handwringing on this show, but the writers got themselves into this mess trying to be shocking, now they need to legitimately get themselves out of it, IMO.

 

I also hope God comes back next season. If only to berate them for being so foolish. Sam and Dean really are like children sometimes, so it might be time for a grown up to step in and give them a good tongue lashing.

DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Dean didn't have the Mark anymore when the Darkness was released.

 

I don't know that Dean needs to become the next Death, in fact, I'd find it hard to believe that a human could become Death in this universe. This is not a dig against Dean, but they're different species in my mind. I do agree some form of Death needs to exist. Maybe one of the rogue reapers will now try to become Death just as Crowley took over Hell after all the big Hell-hitters were all dead?

 

I'm guessing that heaven, hell and humanity will have to unite to fight back the darkness. And, I'm guessing Rowena will be the "vessel" for the Darkness. Too bad she doesn't have a funny name they can make a joke out of, though.

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

I hope Death is sincerely dead. It pains me to say that because I do love me some Death, but I don't want them to come back next season with a gotcha. There needs to be real consequences for Sam and Dean on this one and I would feel cheated if Death isn't actually dead. I know I shouldn't encourage more handwringing on this show, but the writers got themselves into this mess trying to be shocking, now they need to legitimately get themselves out of it, IMO.

 

I also hope God comes back next season. If only to berate them for being so foolish. Sam and Dean really are like children sometimes, so it might be time for a grown up to step in and give them a good tongue lashing.

 

Wholeheartedly agree with that!

 

Good Chuck, Sam and Dean really are TPTB's avatars -- for every mess they try to get themselves out of, they just create a bigger one.  ;-)

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SueB

SueB

  • Author

Okay, here's my Unified Field Theorum. Aka how it all is going to make sense.

1) Since 'family' is the point, that's what God has been after - to get HIS family back. AKA the Archangels.

2) Sam & Dean get Death's ring, not sure how Cas and Crowley fit in but they'll play a role - maybe they take out Meratron

3) Sam & Dean reopen the cage and takes out Luci & Micheal (and they let them 'wear them' to the BIG Prom

3) Gabriel shows up because he really WAS around

4) God show up with Raphael

5) they beat back the Darkness. And human Sam & Dean split the Mark (as Death offered) to keep it under lock & key for eternity. Thus they will forever continue to fight evil.

6) at some point Death (who IS God's brother per someone else's theory upstream) shows up

7) God restores Angels - who are no longer dicks because their fall taught them a lesson

8) Meratron gets locked up in a library for eternity

Apologies for not properly crediting each bit that contributed to the Unified Field Theory. I'm typing on my iPhone.

PS. If I can figure it out, so have a gazillion others. So it may not go down this way b

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catrox14

catrox14

Just another reason this whole Mark being the Cork in the Darkness Bottle is stupid. I remember that line but it didn't make any sense to me. Cain and Dean were essentially sharing the Mark all along which is what I figured had been the case. But sharing it didn't change anything for them. They were both still Killy McStabbersons and Cain could still Jedi the First Blade into his hand.

 

The Mark was killing Dean if he didn't kill because he was human. The same thing should happen to Sam if he took the Mark even if he shared it. 

 

HOLY CRAP.  Remember when Rowena said to "Split the Baby' and Crowley actually split that guy? Hmmmm, foreshadowing?                                                    

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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

Just another reason this whole Mark being the Cork in the Darkness Bottle is stupid. I remember that line but it didn't make any sense to me. Cain and Dean were essentially sharing the Mark all along which is what I figured had been the case. But sharing it didn't change anything for them. They were both still Killy McStabbersons and Cain could still Jedi the First Blade into his hand.

 

The Mark was killing Dean if he didn't kill because he was human. The same thing should happen to Sam if he took the Mark even if he shared it. 

 

HOLY CRAP.  Remember when Rowena said to "Split the Baby' and Crowley actually split that guy? Hmmmm, foreshadowing?                                                    

 

Oh man catrox14, this is some good stuff! I'm going to be thinking on this for awhile! How the hell do you come up with these insights? Are you a writer? Not for the show, I mean as a profession.

 

SueB, I hope you're right. I love Gabriel!

lmdreamer

lmdreamer

I dont want the season to start with one brother looking for the other.  It seems like we already covered this.  What I would find interesting is if crowley somehow snaps cas out of the spell without killing him then have the two of them work together to find out what happened to both sam and dean.  Or if one brother soes have to go missing the have it be dean since sam would know to go to the warehouse and have him find an injured cas and a disabled crowley.  Sam would have to let him live at least for the moment. It would be awkward and interesting between the two of them given their history.

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catrox14

catrox14

(edited)

Oh man catrox14, this is some good stuff! I'm going to be thinking on this for awhile! How the hell do you come up with these insights? Are you a writer? Not for the show, I mean as a profession.

 

SueB, I hope you're right. I love Gabriel!

 

Heh. Thanks Mick Lady. No, I'm not a writer. I'm currently "between jobs" as they say. My line of work is software and tech support. I was taking care of my mom for a year or so before she passed away. I'm just entirely too obsessed with SPN. 

 

Oddly enough, I was looking through some of stuff from high school and I found a couple of short stories I had written. I laughed until I cried at one of them. It was a sci-fi romance. My characters landed on Mars by accident, became a couple had a kid. The best part was that I clearly didn't know how to end it (Chuck was right, 'endings are hard" ...so my ending was literally

 

"The family lived happily on Mars for a year. Then then sun exploded and they all died."....and that is why I am not a writer.

Edited by catrox14
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Mick Lady

Mick Lady

Heh. Thanks Mick Lady. No, I'm not a writer. I'm currently "between jobs" as they say. My line of work is software and tech support. I was taking care of my mom for a year or so before she passed away. I'm just entirely too obsessed with SPN. 

 

Oddly enough, I was looking through some of stuff from high school and I found a couple of short stories I had written. I laughed until I cried at one of them. It was a sci-fi romance. My characters landed on Mars by accident, became a couple had a kid. The best part was that I clearly didn't know how to end it (Chuck was right, 'endings are hard" ...so my ending was literally

 

"The family lived happily on Mars for a year. Then then sun exploded and they all died."....and that is why I am not a writer.

 

 Maybe you should rethink this.

 

Before we moved to Idaho, I taught for 28 years at The Courant Institute at NYU. A close friend of mind taught Writers Workshop and I'll always remember her saying that many of her students took her course because they used to write in junior high or high school, and were there "Just for the hell of it" But it turns out several of these students had some real talent, but just didn't get the right encouragement when they were younger. Maybe you should give it a shot. What have you got to lose?

Mick Lady

Mick Lady

(edited)

I'm not trying to be sweet or kind, and on the other hand I don't want to sound too harsh, but I've seen a lot of people waste their talent. If you're between jobs, set aside some time every day, and do some writing. Take a deep breath and submit it. There are tons of Sci-Fi mags out there. Take the risk. The only thing you'll ever regret are the things you didn't do!

 

But enough of this! Have I mentioned how much I love Gabriel!? SueB, maybe you should consider this too. I see so much talent here.

Edited by Mick Lady
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AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

I agree with Mick Lady, catrox. Besides there's always fanfic. That's how I let my writer out when I'm feeling the need. And this is awful or conceited of me perhaps, but on the rare days when I'm feeling down and like I'm failing at life for whatever reason, I sometimes read over my old reviewer comments * and give myself a little boost, because I remember that at some point, I made someone happy for a little while.

 

* Though sadly I lost my favorite review because it was at my old e-mail address which I lost, because I forgot to check it for a month back when things were bad for a while with my Hubby's family (his Dad was dying). It was from a woman who was an editor for a magazine who told me how much she loved my story and that my writing style reminded her of Tanith Lee. That review gave me a light through some dark times.

 

Bottom line - with media such as fanfiction.net and such, it's easier than ever to just go for it and get your writing out there.

 

Sorry for the off topic - I'm still too confused and annoyed by the finale to have any new thoughtful or coherent speculations. I'm gonna have to rest on my laurels of my "the mark of Cain contributed to killing Death" theory for a bit longer. Hopefully eventually something new will come to me. Until then, I'm enjoying you guys' speculations.... carry on (my wayward sons and daughters.)

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Demented Daisy

Demented Daisy

Just another reason this whole Mark being the Cork in the Darkness Bottle is stupid. I remember that line but it didn't make any sense to me. Cain and Dean were essentially sharing the Mark all along which is what I figured had been the case. But sharing it didn't change anything for them. They were both still Killy McStabbersons and Cain could still Jedi the First Blade into his hand.

 

Because Cain was a demon.  Sam and Dean could share the Mark, presumably, in a way that Cain and Dean could not.  It would be a form of self-sacrifice out of love for each other and the world.  And self-sacrifice is powerful.

 

SueB, your theory could work.  Which means it's the last thing the show would do.  ;-)

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Just another reason this whole Mark being the Cork in the Darkness Bottle is stupid. I remember that line but it didn't make any sense to me. Cain and Dean were essentially sharing the Mark all along which is what I figured had been the case. But sharing it didn't change anything for them. They were both still Killy McStabbersons and Cain could still Jedi the First Blade into his hand.

 

Didn't Death say there were two options? If Dean shared the Mark with someone else (like Cain did) then he would remove the Mark from Dean. Basically making sure there would still be someone who still was the cork in the bottle, but Dean wouldn't be that cork anymore. Dean said he wouldn't do that (I interpreted it as "to someone else").Then Death said the only other option was to lock Dean away. I don't think the idea was that sharing the Mark would make the burden any easier, just made sure there's more than one bearer out there so the bottle stayed corked for good.

 

 

Okay, back to my Rowena spec. I've been thinking all season Rowena's had some sort of end game. Something brought her out of hiding suddenly and she seemed to be looking for something from the Grand Coven. I wonder if the Darkness has been whispering to her, so to speak?

supposebly

supposebly

(edited)

What makes no sense (in my long list): Why is a cork to hold back the Darkness twisting someone into becoming an evil bastard?

 

If that's the Darkness coming through, that cork is kinda porous.

 

I can't say/write/think of "The Darkness" without rolling my eyes and without virtual hand quotes.

Edited by supposebly
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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

What makes no sense (in my long list): Why is a cork to hold back the Darkness twisting someone into becoming an evil bastard?

 

If that's the Darkness coming through, that cork is kinda porous.

 

I can't say/write/think of "The Darkness" without rolling my eyes and without virtual hand quotes.

 

I know what you mean, I have to stifle the giggles every time I type it.

 

I'm guessing the idea is supposed to be like in The Lord of the Rings, you're cork needs to be as un-corruptible as possible. I'm thinking it will come back around to what Joshua said "why does God allow evil to exist in the first place?"...because God can't stop it from existing. I don't know, maybe it will come back around to having all the horsemen rings. Maybe they will become the new cork or something?

supposebly

supposebly

(edited)

 

you're cork needs to be as un-corruptible as possible.

So, giving it to Lucifer was a mistake. Maybe, God should have taken it away after the fall.

 

So, God was watching Cain going medieaval on everything and he didn't think, maybe not such a good idea?

 

Where ARE the rings anyway? I rewatched My Bloody Valentine and Good God Y'all yesterday and War said, you can't kill War. So, maybe there is something to that theory that you can't kill a horseman and this was all a ruse. I'm just not sure by whom and what all this was supposed to accomplish. Rowena? To kill Sam? I have a hard time taking her seriously. She's not been terribly successful until Sam. Which of course bugs me to no end because I have this underlying feeling that most of what happened in season 9 and 10 was only possible by making our characters act stupidly (Dean, Cas, Sam, Charlie) for no inherent reason. After all those years and what they've been through, they should be smarter, not more stupid.

 

Of course, Crowley thought you could kill Death with his own scythe but he's been wrong before. But that scythe was a lot smaller back in season 5. Still, Death was grateful to get it back. Which of course also begs the question, why does he need it in the first place?

Edited by supposebly
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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Maybe it's not so much that Death needed it, but wanted it? Like having a painting stolen and then returned to you. You have no need of the painting, just like to look at it from time to time.

 

Last I heard of the rings they were buried at Bobby's house. That's where Dean got Death's ring from in Appointment at Sumatra, anyway. Maybe they stashed them all over the country though? I really don't know.

AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Didn't Dean give Death his ring back again after he used it in "Appointment in Sumarra?" So is it now lying on his pile of ash? And if not, that might be a clue as to if Death was really Death.

 

However, I'm not sure where the other rings are. If they were smart they would be somewhere in the bunker, but Dean may just, somewhat weirdly, carry them around. because when they first got War's ring, Dean just seemed to have it in his pocket when Castiel asked about it many episodes later.

supposebly

supposebly

 

Maybe it's not so much that Death needed it, but wanted it? Like having a painting stolen and then returned to you. You have no need of the painting, just like to look at it from time to time.

 

Possibly. Or because it IS the only thing that can kill him. Still, it was different from the one they used in this last episode. Considering how they've butchered previously established canon in recent years, I seriously doubt they have thought about all of that.

 

I can't believe I'm even entertaining the idea that there might be a point to all of this besides the usual season finale ingredients:

1. have a tearful Sam and Dean scene,

2. have Sam and Dean beat the shit out of each other,

3. some shocking development they pulled out of their asses at the last minute

mix and watch people come up with smarter and more interesting plot developments over the summer that these hacks can ever come up with.

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DittyDotDot

DittyDotDot

Possibly. Or because it IS the only thing that can kill him. Still, it was different from the one they used in this last episode. Considering how they've butchered previously established canon in recent years, I seriously doubt they have thought about all of that.

 

Or possibly they couldn't figure out how to do the scene with the old scythe? They needed it to be longer to do the "fake out". I don't know. To tell you the truth, I wouldn't be one bit surprised if the just thought the thing looked cool.

 

I doubt they have thought through this Darkness idea, though.

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7kstar

7kstar

(edited)

One reason I'm so mad at the final is that the "cat came out of the bag" that they had thought "Oh, I know let's make Dean a Demon."  They had zero planned with it and it wasn't until they came back that they decided a bit what to do with it.  Then they figured out the 200th needed the boys back together.

 

Now they've got the darkness bit.  If they planned this, you could tie it back to season 5.  Lucifer could have been the smart one, the one everyone loved.  He could even have been the best angel. 

 

Then God created man and gave man free will and the ablitity to love.  Now these new creatures or monkeys as Uriel called them were ugly in Lucifer's eyes.  He gets jealous because dear Daddy is spending too much time on his new play toys or kids.  this happens in real life when the youngest child is born and the other kid feels threaten.

 

So if dear old God knew his time was up, that Death was gunning for him, or he wanted his angels to learn their lessons, that Lucifer failed at...plenty of directions to tie this to...

 

We know that souls are really powerful and that the angels were so suppose to be protecting them.  That the angels lost their way and had forgotten what they were suppose to be doing or had grown tired of it and just wanted to go out and play.

 

So could love, oh dear this could get really cheesy...is LOVE the key to solve this whole darkness issue, but humans have grown lazy, too busy and no longer focus on love...

 

But now with Sam and Dean on the same page, will God once again save their asses, and give them the job of putting the darkness back into it's bottle by them uniting or some weird method...

 

Somehow I think I've just put more thought into this mess than our dear writers have.  It's a jumble mess  I had an idea when I started this...It was tied into a short fanfic I wrote that God wanted Dean and Sam to teach Michael and Lucifer about the power of love...unfortunately it failed hence the mess of season 5.  me bad.

 

oh well...but I think that's the issue, the writers get one idea and then go how can we solve it?  If the fans are teenagers they won't mind. 

 

The bad part is the adults that can figure out something stronger or see the huge plot holes.

Edited by 7kstar
AwesomO4000

AwesomO4000

Mick Lady: the links are in the fanfic thread (halfway down page 2) along with some warnings. I've only written one SPN fic and it remains unfinished... though I am still planning on finishing it and have written more (at least 3 more chapters so far). I'll start posting again once I finish the whole thing and can promise it's done. However, as you say, I am slightly nuts. My fanfics, on the other hand, are sometimes more than a little nuts.

 

However, who knows... if you read my SPN one and find it worth finishing, maybe that will encourage me to get it done faster.

 

Warning: The SPN fanfic is both angsty in parts and bordering on crackfic in others, but I promise it makes sense in story (I know I keep saying that, but...) Its description is also in the fanfic thread. And I'm serious about the misuse of pie. That scene is so wrong. Poor Dean. And if you read  it, don't hesitate to let me know what you think - especially if it's bad, because then I'll know not to finish it, and I won't feel guilty for not finishing it either.

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7kstar

7kstar

(edited)

AwesomO4000, 7kstar, where can I find your fanfic? Is it under the same names you use here?

 

I admit I've never read any fanfic, but I've seen it referred to here so often, I thought I should give it a try! Besides, you both are slightly nuts so this could be interesting...

Strange enough, I am getting comments I should be writing. Now this is weird for me, since I'm mystified by grammar, spelling, and punctuation. But I have decided to give it a try to see if I can get rid of this fear that “I can’t write!” I know I can tell stories, I can even sometimes be a pretty good comedian, but a writer? Now that is the question!  {Quoted from my fanfic page and I didn't start writing until 2006.}

 

You can't say I didn't warn ya.  I have some short ones that are done and one long SPN that is unfinished...School is out for the summer after next week, so I am hoping to get back to finishing my fics as I hate unfinished fics...hate with a passion and I'm guilty of it, so I must at least finish it even if it sucks.  I'm fine with honest reviews as long as you give me something to work on.  :)

 

http://www.fanfiction.net/u/1080405/7kstar

 

Now to get the topic back on track...I get how you can have beginning, middle and end sort of planned out but not have planned all the points that lead to it.  I would be fine with Carver changing his mind about something because he had a better plan...but it just doesn't feel like he has one.  My frustrating issue for me, is I loved Cain, Benny, and even Crowley's mom has grown on me.

 

I could even deal with Death is dead and his twin brother just happens to be the next in line and shows up to seek revenge on our boys.  Yes, I can come up with plots - finishing them is the issue. :)

 

If Carver has finally gotten it all out of his system and just is using this to bring the boys on the same page to fight together, then I could deal.  It still has lots of stupid, but I could over look it.  The boys don't have to be on agreement about everything, they just have to be willing to work together because saving people and hunting things is what counts more than anything else.  This is the show I fell in love with and the one I want back, damn it!  (sorry if my language offends.)

Edited by 7kstar
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ohjoy
Message added by ohjoy

Please keep your speculation and comments on the end of Supernatural in the Supernatural Ending topic. Use this topic here or the Bitter Speculation topic for discussion of the upcoming season only. As always, keep Bitch vs. Jerk discussion in its own topic.

Thank you.

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