Spoilers With Speculation

mertensia · May 3, 2015

Well yes Dean will become a demon. But I can see Dean almost killing Sam, stopping because "look after Sam" is more heavily engrained so he takes a moment then offs himself to stop Sam from trying again.

catrox14 · May 3, 2015

The problem is that as a demon, he was trying to kill Sam when Sam de-demoned him, so I don't think Sam is anymore safe with demon!Dean than MoC!Dean.

mertensia · May 3, 2015

True but it's not like Dean would be thinking of that. Or the writers.

Weird question: could Dean (assuming he was going to try) do a crossroads deal right now?

SueB · May 3, 2015

My predicts at this moment (subject to change on a whim..):

- Charlie is nearly killed but not (because I think they are being too obvious now)

- Dean goes non-linear in "Prisoner" and Sam enacts some spell that is a bad thing to control Dean

- Dean slips the spell at the end and even more bad happens

- Rowena tries to use Cas to kill Crowley but Cas doesn't die and neither does Crowley.

- Crowley kills Rowena

- We're left with: Charlie injured, Cas in danger, Dean and Sam in some permanent crap that is "not good" (okay, vague, but that's what I got now)

Aeryn13 · May 3, 2015

I think the promo is pretty obvious but then again back in Season 2 they showed Sam getting killed - in the promo.

For the last episode, I could tell from the promo pics alone exactly how the final fight would go. And it was 100 % accurate. Synopsises are so-so. The sneak peaks tend to be on the boring side etc. So, whoever does the promo stuff for the CW for the show, I`m not impressed with them. Of course for other shows like Flash and Arrow, the episode summaries tell you in detail the entire episode so maybe the entire department is an overworked intern or something.

That said, Charlie might end up in a coma. Which would merely shelf the character till "further use".

catrox14 · May 3, 2015

Random speculation about re the Mark of Cain and whether or not it can ever be removed from Dean

Rowena is the only one that has said it's a curse and can be removed but I'm not so sure I agree with her police work there. She is opportunistic if nothing else. IMO, she either doesn't know, is taking a WWAG(witchy wild ass guess) or had the ulterior motive which was to get the codex or she might just be wrong.

In the SPN universe, Lucifer's real power came from his ability to manipulate a person into doing what he wants so his hands stay clean-ish. He will kill you certainly but he would rather break you, to make you say YES "voluntarily" to something. According to Cain, Lucifer gave Cain the Mark so that Cain could build an army of demons. I can't fathom why Lucifer would would be so dumb as to make the Mark reversible by something as "simple" as a proper spell. I'm not so sure it is a curse.

If they are doing parallels to s3 and s4 for Sam then we are approaching the part where vengeance and need to save are becoming conflated for Sam. I think there is a desperation in Sam's voice in that clip where he says "I NEED the cure for my brother " and "This is the ONE shot we have to save him" that feels akin to MysterySpot! and demon blood!Sam. My question is why is it the ONE shot? That sounds like Sam either knows something else we don't know yet or Dean does something that scares Sam so much he is thinking about having to kill Dean.

Well yes Dean will become a demon. But I can see Dean almost killing Sam, stopping because "look after Sam" is more heavily engrained so he takes a moment then offs himself to stop Sam from trying again.

mertensia's thoughts got me to thinking if Sam decides to kill Dean, he might have to do it by killing MoC! Dean, letting him resurrect as a demon and then kill demon!Dean...the question being can demon!Dean even be killed? We don't really know. I think demon!Dean would revert right back to what he was trying to do when Sam undemoned him which was trying to kill Sam especially since he'll know that Sam was the one who killed him most recently. Sam might be thinking about powering himself up with demon blood to beat demon!Dean. We could be getting the Sam v Dean battle we never had in Swan Song.

Then there is the Charlie factor. To avoid the brothers-fighting-each-other-again backlash, I could see her going dark again to try and save Dean or kill him herself. She did go toe o toe with him already as Dark!Charlie. She might even survive!

just my musing this morning to avoid thinking about some other things

Edited May 3, 2015 by catrox14

rue721 · May 3, 2015

Weird question: could Dean (assuming he was going to try) do a crossroads deal right now?

I don't think so. Sam has said that he's tried to sell his soul (after S3 and then again after S9, I think?), but there weren't any takers. If Sam can't get rid of his, then I assume that Dean can't sell his again.

What this train of thought is making me wonder about is whether Dean's original deal still holds. When Cas yanked him out of Hell, did that nullify the deal, or did it just get him a reprieve? Could Crowley or someone reinstate the deal, if they wanted to? I guess not, since they haven't, but I don't really know why not. When they opened that gate to Hell in S2, did that nullify any deals? I'm wondering about that because of how John randomly showed up at that point, but hasn't been heard from again -- does his deal with Azazel still hold?

This also makes me think about how Sam wanted to be a lawyer, way back in the day. It would be interesting if he were to come up with a scheme with a more legalistic bent -- like if he attempted to trap someone into a deal or to modify a deal somehow, in order to get what he wants. Rather than going in with brute force or some kind of magic up his sleeve. I'd especially like it if he came up with some way to just outsmart and out-negotiate "the bad guys" if he were to have to go up against Crowley in particular. It just seems like it would be fun to watch, because that's more how Crowley thinks/fights, too.

But the show doesn't really go in that direction, so Sam will probably just do something impulsive or someone more powerful than the Winchesters will step in and save/doom them or something.

That said, Charlie might end up in a coma. Which would merely shelf the character till "further use".

That sounds like pretty credible speculation, to me. Especially since Charlie's mom was in a coma for so long, and they had that whole episode about it.

mertensia's thoughts got me to thinking if Sam decides to kill Dean, he might have to do it by killing MoC! Dean, letting him resurrect as a demon and then kill demon!Dean...the question being can demon!Dean even be killed? We don't really know. I think demon!Dean would revert right back to what he was trying to do when Sam undemoned him which was trying to kill Sam especially since he'll know that Sam was the one who killed him most recently. Sam might be thinking about powering himself up with demon blood to beat demon!Dean. We could be getting the Sam v Dean battle we never had in Swan Song.

On the one hand, I think that Sam would have a better shot at dealing with Dean if Dean were a demon, because at least they understand how to kill/deal with demons, even Knights of Hell. This wouldn't be Sam's first time at that rodeo. But on the other hand, I don't think that Sam actually has it in him to kill Dean, see Dean become a demon, and then kill him again.

I also don't know if he's got the heart for a Sam v Dean battle, though it might happen and it might be the way that Cain's prophesy comes true? Dean might kill Sam while he's a demon.

I still think that Cain's prophesy is liable to come true in some way, just an unexpected way. Because otherwise, why put that prophesy in the show at all? It had to have been to build some dramatic tension, and god forbid they deliver on that tension with an actual climax, lol.

DittyDotDot · May 3, 2015

I was speculating with someone a couple weeks back that maybe they decide to remove the Mark by killing Dean, which would turn him into a demon and then killing that demon. Then, they summon Death to bring Dean back without the Mark and Death gives them the finger, so the season ends with Dean dead anyway. It would be a foolish plan, but so was the whole let-Lucifer-posses-Sam-to-get-Lucifer-back-into-the-cage plan.

Oh, and I'm thinking Dean will sacrifice himself somehow with Sam's blessing similar to how Sam sacrificed himself with Dean's blessing in Swan Song. (I guess blessing isn't the right word since I don't think Sam will be all that happy about it similar to how Dean wasn't particularly happy about Sam sacrificing himself, but permission sounded worse somehow...help me find the right word people.)

What this train of thought is making me wonder about is whether Dean's original deal still holds. When Cas yanked him out of Hell, did that nullify the deal, or did it just get him a reprieve? Could Crowley or someone reinstate the deal, if they wanted to? I guess not, since they haven't, but I don't really know why not. When they opened that gate to Hell in S2, did that nullify any deals? I'm wondering about that because of how John randomly showed up at that point, but hasn't been heard from again -- does his deal with Azazel still hold?

This is a very good question. I'd say technically, Dean's contract was fulfilled. The deal was, Sam gets brought back to life and Dean gets a year then his soul goes to Hell. Those things happened, just because Dean's soul was pulled out of Hell later shouldn't negate them...right? Same with John, as far as we know (his deal was never fully shown to us), John's deal was completed also. Just because he escaped Hell later shouldn't change anything...right? And Joshua said God had granted both Sam and Dean salvation in Heaven...so I think, not sure though, that Dean's deal shouldn't be a factor for where his soul goes after he dies. But, Crowley was able to divert Bobby's soul, so there's really no guarantees anymore...right?

Edited May 3, 2015 by DittyDotDot

catrox14 · May 3, 2015

I think the deals are pretty iron clad that it's one soul for another one not for how long the soul remains in Hell. Otherwise I would think Crowley would just round up all the demons that got out and send them back. It's why Crowley was so pissed off when demon!Dean killed Lester instead of Mindy since the contract had been for Mindy's soul not Lester's. It broke the one for one contract. The only difference is in how much time Dean got on Earth vs the regular demon deal.

I think the difference with Crowley diverting Bobby to Hell didn't mean that a deal was not honored. Bobby traded his soul once and Crowley let him out of that deal. Then when Bobby actually died he was supposed to go to Heaven, so Crowley just sent him to Hell to spite the Winchesters. Didn't he have to pay off the rogue reaper to do it? I think Crowley doesn't do that as a matter of course nor does he want to risk a war with Death and the Reapers (new band name). But damn that would be a plot line I'd watch the hell out of.

And may I just say as an aside, how funny it is to me that we just talk about all this like we are in demon law school. OMG! Sam could start the Winchester School of Demon Law as a branch of the Men of Letters or when could be the Demon Attorney General serving as an adviser to Dean Winchester, King of Hell. LOL I would watch the hell out of that too!

I love this show so much. Even when I hate it.

Edited May 3, 2015 by catrox14

rue721 · May 3, 2015

(I guess blessing isn't the right word since I don't think Sam will be all that happy about it similar to how Dean wasn't particularly happy about Sam sacrificing himself, but permission sounded worse somehow...help me find the right word people.)

Acquiescence?

Just because he escaped Hell later shouldn't change anything...right? And Joshua said God had granted both Sam and Dean salvation in Heaven...so I think, not sure though, that Dean's deal shouldn't be a factor for where his soul goes after he dies. But, Crowley was able to divert Bobby's soul, so there's really no guarantees anymore...right?

I'm not sure whether the deals have been fulfilled or not, because I'm not sure whether Hell's side of the bargain is simply that the soul must go to Hell, or whether it's that the soul now *belongs* to Hell. Personally, I lean more toward the latter rather than the former, because I tend to think of the crossroads deals as someone *selling* his soul.

So does Crowley/Hell hold the "deed" to someone's soul, regardless of where that soul is located at any given time? Could Dean's soul be located in Heaven or on Earth but still be *owned* by Hell, and ultimately at the mercy of whatever the King of Hell wants to do with it?

I'm thinking that God "emancipated" Dean via salvation -- but I'm also thinking that that emancipation/salvation ultimately might not mean much in practice, since God is mostly indifferent and far away, and Crowley (and his possible bill of sale?) is right here...especially if Crowley becomes ready to collect (again). Like how Lincoln's actual Emancipation Proclamation both freed people and *didn't* free people -- because the Proclamation declared that people were free under US law (so people *were* freed!), BUT the South was ostensibly not subject to US law anymore because of the secession, and more importantly, there was no one/way for the Emancipation to be enforced in the South (so in practice, they weren't freed). So even though you might be legally a freeman because slavery has been declared illegal, try telling that to slave catchers or to your owner. And yes, in that metaphor, God is Lincoln, and Crowley is a plantation owner or maybe even Jefferson Davis himself. *snort* So I guess I'm seeing it like, God might say that Dean is saved, but Dean can just try relying on THAT to keep him out of Hell and just try telling that to Crowley -- he probably won't have much luck.

Using the metaphor of slavery/Antebellum America is sort of how I make sense of Crowley being able to imprison Bobby in Hell, too. I think of Bobby getting pulled into Hell at Crowley's behest as sort of like how, in 12 Years a Slave, Solomon Northup (who was a freeman born and raised in NY) was tricked into coming to Washington, DC, which was technically a free territory but was surrounded by slave states and filled with slavers (in this metaphor, DC = Earth), and how Northup was then falsified to be a slave, and sold to a Southerner and taken south as a slave (South = Hell). In that metaphor, the backdoors through Purgatory and the cabbie Reapers and all that, that they used to smuggle Bobby out of Hell, are like the Underground Railroad. And yes, I did turn Sam Winchester basically into Harriet Tubman, so sue me. (No disrespect intended at all, Ms. Tubman! Well actually, no disrespect intended to anyone!).

rue721 · May 3, 2015

And may I just say as an aside, how funny it is to me that we just talk about all this like we are in demon law school. OMG! Sam could start the Winchester School of Demon Law as a branch of the Men of Letters or when could be the Demon Attorney General serving as an adviser to Dean Winchester, King of Hell. LOL I would watch the hell out of that too!

LOL "You can be damned AND a conscientious worker."

I always love this sort of thing, though. MOAR DEMON CONTRACT NEGOTIATIONS PLZ.

catrox14 · May 3, 2015

I'm not sure whether the deals have been fulfilled or not, because I'm not sure whether Hell's side of the bargain is simply that the soul must go to Hell, or whether it's that the soul now *belongs* to Hell. Personally, I lean more toward the latter rather than the former, because I tend to think of the crossroads deals as someone *selling* his soul.

Crossroads deals are as straight forward as can be. You get 10 years to live your life for whatever life you wanted saved. Then when your time is up, the Hellhounds come for you, and you get sent to Hell. Deal done. I think the assumption was that no one could get out of Hell because if you'd probably be there long enough to be turned into a demon. I mean part of Hell is just to torment you for your decisions but it seems to me that if a demon gets out of Hell and wants to stay out of Hell there is no supernatural reason for them to be bound to Hell for an eternity if they can avoid being discovered. If it's someone like Dean who never became a demon, then IMO the deal was fulfilled. If it was the case it was an eternal deal then Crowley would have sent Sam and Dean back to Hell a long time ago. And I don't think he keeps them around for his own amusement either.

LOL "You can be damned AND a conscientious worker."

I thought exactly of this. I love that line so much.

I can totally picture the tagline for ads for The Winchester School of Demon Law.

Can't figure how the hell you are going to win your case? Call 1-666- LAW-HELL. We're here to help-ish.

Edited May 3, 2015 by catrox14

DittyDotDot · May 3, 2015

Crossroads deals are as straight forward as can be. You get 10 years to live your life for whatever life you wanted saved. Then when your time is up, the Hellhounds come for you, and you get sent to Hell. The assumption is that no one gets out of Hell, but I don't think that is what the deal is based on.

I agree the deals appear to be very straight forward, but you can make a deal for anything, not just to save another's life. Some people have made deals for fame and fortune also. But yeah, after ten years you go to Hell.

I'm not sure whether the deals have been fulfilled or not, because I'm not sure whether Hell's side of the bargain is simply that the soul must go to Hell, or whether it's that the soul now *belongs* to Hell. Personally, I lean more toward the latter rather than the former, because I tend to think of the crossroads deals as someone *selling* his soul.

I do love your slavery metaphor rue, but I wonder if the deal is that Hell owns your soul forever or that you sell the rights to the power your soul generates to Hell. That's the whole reason for getting the souls to Hell is the power they generate is what runs Hell, right?

Maybe it's like a singer/songwriter. They sign a contract with a record label to record an album. The record label has the rights to that music and the artist gets royalties as part of the deal. But later the artist jumps ship and decides to record with a different label, the new label only has the rights to the new music. Anything recorded before already has been spoken for.

So, I wonder if Dean's soul does indeed go to Heaven, can Heaven use the energy generated by his soul to power Heaven since he sold the rights to that power to Hell? Maybe this is why you need to go with your reaper willingly when your heaven-bound...maybe that's a form of a contract that Heaven needs to get the rights to the power your soul generates. Also, would that mean there is the possibility of Dean buying back the rights to his soul, for the right price of course?

7kstar · May 3, 2015

Okay a strange idea and no clue if they would do this or not...

What if Metatron takes the devil tablet to Crowley and makes a deal to save himself and the tablet gives Crowley a way to control Dean because he has the mark. Dean could kill Cas and Sam and not be held accountable in some ways since he did it against his will and becomes a demon again...

Edited May 3, 2015 by 7kstar

catrox14 · May 3, 2015

I'm confused about the power of souls. When was that determined?

DittyDotDot · May 3, 2015

Wasn't that what S6 was all about...power of the souls? Crowley gave Cass a loan of souls in order to overcome Raphael. The unsinking of the Titanic was so that there would be 50,000 more souls to fuel Cass's war machine. The entire reason Crowley and Cass were looking for Purgatory was to get the power of the souls...right?

catrox14 · May 3, 2015

Wasn't that what S6 was all about...power of the souls? Crowley gave Cass a loan of souls in order to overcome Raphael. The unsinking of the Titanic was so that there would be 50,000 more souls to fuel Cass's war machine. The entire reason Crowley and Cass were looking for Purgatory was to get the power of the souls...right?

I guess I took the use of "power" too literally in this discussion...like electricity, like hamsters on the wheel LOL, keeping the lights on and such and I was really confused. I'm not even kidding. Just stupid.

Thanks for that reminder.

I n

SueB · May 4, 2015

http://www.screenfad.com/supernatural/supernatural-sneak-peek-s10e21-dark-dynasty-37048

Sneak Peek: No Charlie, EVERYTHING about this plan reeks. Somehow I think me shouting "just say no!" to the screen is not going to make a difference.

catrox14 · May 4, 2015

Sam, Sam, Sam. I am really annoyed that he is just so convinced Dean is losing the battle against the Mark. And what evidence is there that Dean is going to be lost forever. For some reason I thought Dean told Sam that about the remission and relapse thing. Why aren't they looking at this as a long remission! There better be more to back up Sam's decision here than Sam's not always spot on diagnosis of Dean. Blergh

7kstar · May 4, 2015

Well Dean's eyes going black and him not telling Sam isn't helping. I guess the nightmares is what has Sam convinced that Dean is losing it.

Of course this plan stinks and will backfire...just how bad will it backfire? Hopefully Charlie isn't killed...I'm tired of the deaths on this show of the good guys that are left. Kill Metratron, some angel but leave the few left alone.

Hoping I won't be killing my TV after the end of this ep. At least Sam is showing how much he cares...not so easy when the shoe is on the other foot now is it. LOL>

catrox14 · May 5, 2015

Well Dean's eyes going black and him not telling Sam isn't helping. I guess the nightmares is what has Sam convinced that Dean is losing it.

There is debate whether that was really demon!Dean(I think it might be) or Dean having an hallucination.but either way it's not something Sam is privy to. Sam has little evidence that Dean is THISCLOSE to being lost forever. If Dean himself wasn't sure of what he saw he wouldn't tell Sam. If it's demon!Dean then he really wouldn't tell Sam. I'm not gonna lie. I'm to the point where I hope it was demon!Dean and he's being playing Sam for reasons.

Unless Dean has been talking in his sleep about killing all of them, I don't know why the nightmares would be something Sam wouldn't talk to Dean about.

AwesomO4000 · May 5, 2015

Sam, Sam, Sam. I am really annoyed that he is just so convinced Dean is losing the battle against the Mark. And what evidence is there that Dean is going to be lost forever. For some reason I thought Dean told Sam that about the remission and relapse thing. Why aren't they looking at this as a long remission! There better be more to back up Sam's decision here than Sam's not always spot on diagnosis of Dean. Blergh

Doubtful - that would actually make Sam look smart and/or logical, and I have a feeling that that isn't the goal here.

Of course this plan stinks and will backfire...just how bad will it backfire? Hopefully Charlie isn't killed...

... nope, never mind... not gonna say it. I'd just be repeating myself, and it'll just make me want to cry anyway. I'm just going to have to accept yet another "Sam does a complete 180 on his point of view" again, because the writers seem to think this is okay to do as long as it gets them where they want to go story-wise.

::Le sigh::

7kstar · May 5, 2015

Doubtful - that would actually make Sam look smart and/or logical, and I have a feeling that that isn't the goal here.

... nope, never mind... not gonna say it. I'd just be repeating myself, and it'll just make me want to cry anyway. I'm just going to have to accept yet another "Sam does a complete 180 on his point of view" again, because the writers seem to think this is okay to do as long as it gets them where they want to go story-wise.

::Le sigh::

You won't be alone in this, cause I am sick of Stupid Sam, mean Sam for no stinky reason. It may be asking too much for creative writing...but I hope we are both pleasantly surprised...

SueB · May 5, 2015

I should have been more specific. I meant getting all the souls back into heaven and then close off Heaven. I think Dean just wants their shit off his planet.

People die every day. You need a functional Heaven and Hell. Which, IMO, was why closing the Gates of Hell was a bad idea in the first place.

lmdreamer · May 5, 2015

At some point sam and dean need to reallized that you cant have one with out the other there has to always be a a heaven and a hell. As much as sam hates crowley wouldn't it be better to have the devil you know downstairs than one you don't know? Anywho like alot of you I am concerned about charlie next episode. I hope she doesn't die, just injured, maybe? I also have a bad feeling that crowley is not going to survive episode 23. IF he dies, I hope they do it right and not have him go out like a chump or a moron.

Edited May 5, 2015 by lmdreamer

catrox14 · May 5, 2015

People die every day. You need a functional Heaven and Hell. Which, IMO, was why closing the Gates of Hell was a bad idea in the first place.

I was so confused by you post. Because my comment was from like a year ago...LOL

7kstar · May 5, 2015

She felt it was relevant today because of how much the writers like to recycle old ideas???? :) just a guess as I can't really read minds. ;)

rue721 · May 5, 2015

At some point sam and dean need to reallized that you cant have one with out the other there has to always be a a heaven and a hell. As much as sam hates crowley wouldn't it be better to have the devil you know downstairs than one you don't know? Anywho like alot of you I am concerned about charlie next episode. I hope she doesn't die, just injured, maybe? I also have a bad feeling that crowley is not going to survive episode 23. IF he dies, I hope they do it right and not have him go out like a chump or a moron.

Naw there's no practical reason to have a Hell. They could just use the current Hell as a satellite campus for Heaven, if they still needed the space for souls to go to. Or just make it some other un-Heaven-like but otherwise nice place, there's no reason for it to be horrible down there. There doesn't NEED to be some terrible prison world for souls, where people are transformed into demons through torture. Lucifer just apparently wanted to make a place like that because...that's just who he is, I guess.

The reason I think it would be kind of awful to close the gates is because what about all the people who would then be trapped inside? I mean, their dad was in there, last they knew? And Dean and Sam had both been in there. It's not like everyone in Hell is automatically a horrible person, it seems like everyone on the show who ended up there was basically fine. John, Bela, Dean, Sam, Bobby. But they didn't want to try and get anybody out before they shut up the place?

The whole thing was kind of nuts and impulsive, but I didn't mind that, because Sam seemed like he was convincingly in the right state of mind for doing something nuts and impulsive. I felt like I understood his motivations w/r/t the Trials SO MUCH BETTER than the Amelia crap, so.

oliverwendell · May 5, 2015

I am really annoyed that he is just so convinced Dean is losing the battle against the Mark.

This is really annoying me, too. I mean, of course he's losing the battle. The Mark always wins, Cain made that perfectly clear. But it doesn't seem to have reached the Red Flag! Emergency! Emergency! stage that would justify Sam taking crazy measures. I mean, Dean is functioning well. He's going on hunts and, aside from a slight tendency to slam witness' heads into tables, he's doing pretty well. This is a major storytelling failure to me, because it makes Sam's furtive, desperate behavior hard to understand.

I'm also fundamentally confused about why, exactly, using the Book of the Damned is such a terrible idea. Dean got the cooties when he touched it, and he said it wanted him to do terrible things. Okay. One of the Stynes said if they used it, there would be "Biblical" consequences. Right. But none of that is compelling to me, because nowhere in the story have they told me, with specificity, what using the Book of the Damned would do. Without that, I don't get why Sam needs to keep it from Dean, or why Dean is apparently going to go off the rails when he finds out Sam has it. So that's another storytelling fail, from my seat.

Finally, I don't get that Dean has given up. He's dubious that a remedy is out there, and he doesn't want a remedy that would exact too high a price. But he very clearly said he intended to get his beach vacation in the end. Just not through the Book of the Damned (although, see above re: the lack of specificity there). He also said to Charile and Sam that he doesn't have a death wish; he wants to be saved. He's fighting the Mark as hard as he can, and I'm sure he'd love a solution to his problem that wouldn't involve unleashing Hell on earth or whatever. So why does Sam think Dean is all passively waiting to become a demon, to the point where it's up to him to save him against his wishes?

AwesomO4000 · May 5, 2015

So why does Sam think Dean is all passively waiting to become a demon, to the point where it's up to him to save him against his wishes?

Because apparently we have to do season 4 over again for some reason? Or we have to do a parallel to Dean / Gadreel to teach Sam some kind of lesson? At least that's they way it's looking to me.

And I was enjoying this season for the most part until the set up is looking to just be a repeat of season 4... except with even less justification of motivation. Maybe they'll throw in "Sam was arrogant" to explain it again - like Sam didn't learn that lesson the first time - with Dean calling him out on it in the finale or maybe Crowley at the beginning of next season.

I'm hoping that it's all going to make more sense when the episode airs... like in the beginning we find out that Dean is having more nightmares, or Sam is seeing his hand shaking or the mark glowing or... something.

Edited May 5, 2015 by AwesomO4000

catrox14 · May 5, 2015

Finally, I don't get that Dean has given up. He's dubious that a remedy is out there, and he doesn't want a remedy that would exact too high a price. But he very clearly said he intended to get his beach vacation in the end. Just not through the Book of the Damned (although, see above re: the lack of specificity there). He also said to Charile and Sam that he doesn't have a death wish; he wants to be saved. He's fighting the Mark as hard as he can, and I'm sure he'd love a solution to his problem that wouldn't involve unleashing Hell on earth or whatever. So why does Sam think Dean is all passively waiting to become a demon, to the point where it's up to him to save him against his wishes?

This is the thing that is driving me the most batty. Never once has Dean said he was giving up. Not even to himself or to HalluciBenny. I mean unless they plan on saying that Dean was in denial the entire time which even if he was, he's still taking steps to control it as best he can.

The only thing I can think is that Sam is hanging on to that super confusing speech Dean gave at the end of Halt and Catch Fire. Quoting here just for reference.

    DEAN    My peace is helping people. Working cases. That’s all I want to do.

    SAM    Is this about the Mark?

    DEAN    I’m done trying to find a cure, Sammy.

    SAM    Dean, Cas is so close.

    DEAN    To what? We don’t even know if there is a cure. So far, we’ve got nothing. We have found nothing at the Men of Letters library. Metatron may or may not know something. And maybe Cas is on to something with Cain.

    SAM    Maybe. Yeah, maybe. Nothing is guaranteed, Dean. So what? We can’t just stop fighting.

    DEAN    Yes, we can.

    SAM    So, this is it? Y-you’re just gonna – you’re just gonna give up.

    DEAN    No. No, I’m not just gonna give up. I appreciate the effort, okay? I do. But the answer is not out there. It’s with me. I need to be the one calling the shots here, okay? I can’t keep waking up every morning with this false hope. I got to know where I stand. Otherwise, I’m gonna lose my freakin’ mind. So I’m gonna fight it til I can’t fight it anymore. And when all is said and done… I’ll go down swinging.

Maybe Sam's brain stuck on the part of the dialogue where Dean says "Yes we can", even though everything else is Dean not giving up. Dean killed Cain when he could have let Cain just kill him and been done with it. But Dean couldn't let Cain go on killing.

I'm just as annoyed with Cas being all "Dean's on the verge of Killy McStabberson" again, when Cas hasn't spent a day with Dean it seems like this season for him to make that call either. So for me this is starting to be a glaring plot hole. I'm trying to hold on to there being some reveal that makes any of this make sense.

Aeryn13 · May 5, 2015

I think it`s typical tell vs. show. They have not shown us ONCE that Dean is about to go bananas in five seconds or less. But since they have other characters say it till they are blue in the face, they figure that surfices. I also hate the "he has given up" moniker. He is realistic about his situation yet keeps fighting and he doesn`t want collateral damage on his account. Wow, what a pathetic quitter. Fuck you, writers.

Will they even acknowledge that Dean wasn`t remotely close to snapping until and unless probably the events set in motion here that push him over the edge? I doubt it.

DittyDotDot · May 5, 2015

http://www.screenfad.com/supernatural/supernatural-sneak-peek-s10e21-dark-dynasty-37048

Sneak Peek: No Charlie, EVERYTHING about this plan reeks. Somehow I think me shouting "just say no!" to the screen is not going to make a difference.

Is it weird that my biggest question about that clip was: why is Sam still stealing random beater cars rather than using one of the cars sitting in the bunker?

Of course this is a bad idea and of course Charlie will help them with it. Sigh.

SueB · May 5, 2015

I was so confused by you post. Because my comment was from like a year ago...LOL

doh! how did that happen.

Aeryn13 · May 5, 2015

Of course this is a bad idea and of course Charlie will help them with it. Sigh.

It reminded me so much of Kevin`s last words to Dean, that he always trusts him and that he always gets screwed in the end. So, I still think this is Charlie`s Kevinization-episode.

rue721 · May 5, 2015

It reminded me so much of Kevin`s last words to Dean, that he always trusts him and that he always gets screwed in the end. So, I still think this is Charlie`s Kevinization-episode.

Probably true. The moral of the story this season is STAY AWAY FROM THE WINCHESTERS THEY'RE POISON. :P

catrox14 · May 5, 2015

Probably true. The moral of the story this season is STAY AWAY FROM THE WINCHESTERS THEY'RE POISON. :P

I think you're joking but I'm really starting to think that Carver and Co, really do think Sam and Dean are poison. I feel like very little they do is being presented as heroic or good at all since s8. Like I get the idea of looking into the "at what price saving people, hunting things" but they are in danger of making both brothers not even likeable anti-heroes. I'm really quite worried about this.

rue721 · May 5, 2015

Well, I'm sort of joking, but it really is true that everyone who comes into contact with them has the tendency to be horrifically maimed and gruesomely killed. So it wouldn't shock me if that's where Charlie's story ends up going.

I don't think it's because Carver & Co. are really trying to say that the Winchesters suck, I think it's because they're trying to produce (w)angst. Fridging has working relatively well for this show in the past, so the producers probably feel like, "If it ain't broke.." and whenever they feel they need to give the guys another dose of angst they just fridge another character. The more vulnerable and sympathetic that fridged character is, the better.

SueB · May 5, 2015

I guess I feel Dean really IS on the edge. I think Sam correctly spotted that Dean hasn't been the same since Execution Song. At the end of that we saw him trying to be positive, Dean being utter NOT OKAY as he walked away, and Sam telling Cas Dean was in trouble. He's seen moments of Dean be very fatalistic and then other times acting like everything is alright. Every time Dean acts like "business as usual" I think an alarm goes off in Sam's head. Because Dean pretending he's okay is his #1 go to when he's messed up. It's not that Dean is lying -- Dean's being really open about stuff. It's just that Dean is ACTIVELY being normal. I appreciate that this sounds weird but it's like when he was trying to hard at laughing before the melee moment with Randy and The Rapists. I think Sam hears Dean's nightmares and then sees him say "I slept like a drunken baby" and think "facade". I don't think he's wrong.

I guess what I'm saying is that Dean is in worse shape than he appears to others but that Sam and Cas are seeing it. Maybe it's not coming across well enough on screen but I think that's an audience fake-out. I think eventually we'll see Sam is right, Dean is close to succumbing to the Mark.

Aeryn13 · May 5, 2015

Maybe it's not coming across well enough on screen but I think that's an audience fake-out.

I disagree, I think they figure it`s enough if they have characters voicing things noone sees. Dean is "snapping" but apparently it`s still fine to leave him to babysit the sullen teen who tried to have him killed last time? Neither Sam nor Cas had ANY reservations about leaving Dean alone with her. They can`t have it both ways, claiming on the one hand that he is this terrible danger, about to be unleashed in the next five seconds and then la-di-da-ing their way about it.

Not to mention, Cas specifically made this statement over Dean`s behaviour with Ronny. Which was stuff we saw Cas pretty much do with Metatron and Sam do with a barkeeker in "About a boy". This is not a fake-out, to me, that is blatant hypocrisy. We are supposed to think Dean is getting worse and our evidence is him doing stuff that the other characters do as well. Of whom we aren`t supposed to be suspicious.

Dean has shown for episodes on end now that he is still reasonably in control. TV is a visual medium, if they don`t show me he is snapping, then he isn`t. Sam and Cas look delusional to me and I`ll never think they are correct in their wanky assessment right now. They will be IMO only after THEY pushed him over the edge.

To be honest, right now, all the scenes where Sam and Cas glumly recite how Dean is almost gone come across to me like they are badmouthing him for the hell of it. He is doing pretty much fine and noone seems to value or acknowledge his efforts. It`s not only that it appears they have NO faith in him but they are actively falsely discrediting him.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Aeryn13

SueB · May 5, 2015

This is not a fake-out, to me, that is blatant hypocrisy.

I feel like we're not having the same conversation...

I'm not saying that he doesn't appear to be fine. I'm saying he actually is NOT fine but appears to be more okay than he is. They WANT us to have this argument and think Sam and Cas are over-reacting. That's the fake-out.

As for Sam and Cas being consistent. I think what they are worried about is not that just sitting there he's going to snap. They are worried about him being in a violent confrontation and THEN snapping. So leaving him with Claire, just hanging out watching TV does not involve any kind of trigger event. Potentially confronting a bad guy in his lair does. Hence, he was benched. I think they recognize Dean is still Dean but they are concerned that he might be more susceptible to the Mark under specific conditions. I don't think they believe he's a "foaming at the mouth" diseased killer puppy who will snap over an argument about the TV remote. I think they are trying to keep him involved and working like normal but holding off in what they perceive as high risk situations.

catrox14 · May 5, 2015

I think Dean is on the edge too but that is a very different thing than how they have been positioning this. Dean is a bit more dicky with scamming the guys at pool but he also stopped himself from killing them when they were turned into damn attack dogs by Rowena. He's killing vamps to keep it in check.

IMO Sam's problems are because he is not just telling Dean straight up of these plans. So is he going to just hex Dean without Dean's consent here? Is that what we are headed for?

My biggest problem is going back to the Hunter Games. Sam and Cas were totally freaked out about Dean slaughtering Randy and the Rapists, which WHATEVER GUYS, they deserved what they got. I don't care if Dean isn't God judge and jury. They attacked him. Anyway, as we know, Sam made this big point of telling Dean that it might be up to Dean to control it himself. Dean had no faith that he could do it at first but he told Sam to stop trying and that he would go down fighting. And now that is pretty much what Dean is doing, yet Sam either doesn't see it or doesn't believe it.

The big SWERVE that would make this all better is if it's been demon!Dean all along, and Sam KNOWS it's demon!Dean and they've been playing this game with each other. I could live with that. In fact, I really hope that's what it is now. That they have both been running long cons on each other.

Edited May 5, 2015 by catrox14

Aeryn13 · May 5, 2015

I'm not saying that he doesn't appear to be fine. I'm saying he actually is NOT fine but appears to be more okay than he is. They WANT us to have this argument and think Sam and Cas are over-reacting. That's the fake-out.

I still disagree. I think we are supposed to see Sam slam a man`s head against a bar in one episode and go "awww, he is so protective of Dean" and see Dean slam a guy`s head against a table in another and go "wow, he is so violent and nearly evol, no wonder Castiel clutches his pearls".

Do I believe Dean is fine? Not really. But he is nowhere near not-fine enough to warrant the reactions he has gotten from Cas and Sam. I think they are overreacting because to me that is exactly what they are. I see no fake-out in that. Even if Dean snaps NOW, it still doesn`t make their reactions valid to me in hindsight.

I don't think they believe he's a "foaming at the mouth" diseased killer puppy who will snap over an argument about the TV remote.

The way they are acting and the stuff they are saying? That is pretty much exactly what they seem to believe. Which is why it appears to be so over the line.

In the latest clip, Sam acts as if he is Jack Bauer and the time window he has for curing Dean is 24 hours, tops. After which Dean will go nuclear. Yet with the way DEAN is acting, they could have months, possibly even years until he actually snap-snaps. The sense of urgency is missing.

When Dean facilitated the Gadreel thing, it was a window of a few hours and for the last decision, split-second pretty much. Them trying to sell me the same thing here is ludicrous in my eyes. That is why "OMG, must go to Rowena now" and "OMG, must involve Charlie now" and all that looks so ill-advised because there appears to be time enough to put in a few redundancies, make everything safer.

Not to mention dialogue like "Dean is not himself, he would stop me if he knew". What??? Sure, he would stop you. But that is precisely because he is himself. He, Dean as himself, said not to go the most dangerous, risky, collateral damage route and that the book feels evil to him so of course he would fricking stop you. If this wasn`t about curing Dean and instead defeating some big Baddie and Dean had no Mark at all, he would still try and stop this if the story went there and it would be in character.

It is not a sign of the Mark if Dean said "wow, that fucking book again? nothing good will come from it". What would be a sign of the Mark would be Dean saying "um, hand me the book , it`s fine, I can handle it".

The disconnect between the dialogue and the actual actions is staggering right now. With the way the story has played out until now there isn`t a universe in existance that would make me believe Sam was correct in his assessment after all. Not happening.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Aeryn13

shang yiet · May 5, 2015

The writers just don't want to blacken Dean's character, hence he is only allowed to kill rapists. Which makes the MOC as exciting as a damp towel.

As for Sam and Cas, if they just shrugged their shoulders and went about their business like normal, fans would accuse them of not caring. 'No, Dean's fine, he just had too much coffee.' Yeah, well, when it all goes to hell in the finale, fans would accuse them of being blind to Dean's predicament. Sam and Cas can't win.

7kstar · May 5, 2015

IA that Dean is faking that he is doing better than he is. Also I think Dean acting so normal and having the crazy nightmares is getting to Sam. I think we are suppose to see the nightmares as the really bad issue that is showing that Dean is losing it.

I also thought that Dean had a moment of looking like the mark was taking over when he got knocked down on his last fight. So maybe we are suppose to see Sam supper sensitive since he ignored the issue last year and Dean turned Demon in a blink of an eye so to speak.

I'm not upset with Sam or Cas because I believe they are acting on it is better to be safe than sorry. but I do wish the urgency was shown and not told to us. Every writer has had some major fails...but I'm hoping we see something that makes us go oh now I see it or something where we want to support Sam's crazy ideas.

but even last year when I could support some of Dean's decisions to save Sam, and let's face it - if they didn't save Sam, the show would be over. Even though I did support Dean, I also saw him cross a line that should have been addressed. It's how they addressed it, is what I had an issue with. So I'm hoping the writer's have had a major learning curve and they do a better job this time around.

SueB · May 5, 2015

*sigh*. No matter what happens, they've got us debating. That's a victory for the writers right there.

PS Still having kittens over Charlie. They may as well put up a thought bubble over her head saying 'I'm pretty sure I'm going to die this episode'. In that producer's clip.

catrox14 · May 5, 2015

As for Sam and Cas, if they just shrugged their shoulders and went about their business like normal, fans would accuse them of not caring. 'No, Dean's fine, he just had too much coffee.' Yeah, well, when it all goes to hell in the finale, fans would accuse them of being blind to Dean's predicament. Sam and Cas can't win.

Dean has already killed 6 humans this season. And he beat the shit out of dark! Charlie which hurt actual!Charlie. And not everyone in the audience looks at Dean as not being bad. I read other blogs and boards and he's being roundly lambasted for those actions. The only time he has been giving a true pass is when he was demon!Dean.

Sam has been worried about Dean all season and that's fine. I'm glad to see it. Sam wanting and pleading with Dean to control the Mark seems to actually be working as well as it can. So to me why they are choosing now to have Sam and Cas interpret what Dean is doing as being at DeanDefCon 2 when what they are showing us is Dean at DeanDefcon 3 is IMO peculiar at best and poor writing at worst. And maybe they are relying on performances, but last season when Dean really wasn't in control we IMO saw that pretty clearly even without Sam worrying about it.

If i'm to believe that what Sam and Cas are saying is true it would go along way if they just had one little scene of Sam witnessing Dean actually doing something to an innocent person like getting annoyed at some dickbag in a bar for looking at him sideways then laying in wait to beat him up. Some might argue that Dean hustling that college guy in the bar was that, I would not agree because Dean was attacked and stopped himself short of killing them. But even in that case Sam didn't see it. If the concern is a reveal too soon I don't think one scene would do that.

Sam seeing Dean have nightmares without really pushing Dean about it is annoying. Asking Dean how he slept doesn't really accomplish anything because Dean is actually sleeping if he's having nightmares. He's hitting REM anyway. Last season the signs of him getting worse was NOT sleeping. I don't understand why Sam doesn't just say 'Dean, you woke me up because you were having nightmares' You were screaming my name, so you can't lie to me about that'.

I think there has been a shift in Jensen's performance post killing(?) Cain where he is in control. LIke when he was benched in Angel Heart, it didn't play the same was when Sam tried to bench him last season. He didn't have that desperate thing of doing anything to not be benched. He just went along with with it IMO because he's not close to DeanDefCon2. He was antsy and didn't want to sit around the hotel, but he didn't seem all that angry about it, just frustrated and confused more than anything.

All I know is that it's not making a lot of sense.

Edited May 5, 2015 by catrox14

Aeryn13 · May 6, 2015

I think the simplest explanation just fits here: the writing is bad. It`s not clever or subtle or a slow-burn or foreshadowing or any of those things - I have seen writers on other shows do those and do it well - but just bad. The basic ideas do have potential, like the Mark of Cain storyline overall, but the execution is without rhyme or reason and the only throughline that is tentatively there is in the performances. Anvillious dialogue is no substitute for missing storytelling.

In the end, I do still prefer it to other Seasons of the show because even a disappointingly done storyline is better than having none to me. Of course, it depends on how they conclude it all. If we ultimately get another thing like the Season 5 Finale, either now or later, it will have been as much as a waste of time as Dean`s Season 4 and 5 storyline.

SueB · May 6, 2015

Seems like Jensen made a few press-rounds in the last two weeks before the mudder.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/06/supernatural-season-10-finale-winchester-most-tears?hootPostID=c3207aaa7addc25cfccaf68e18b5e9f3

So this is a 'Sam cries more' finale. Of course, I don't trust that man with spoilers. Now I know he's expressed some surprise that everyone got the "eye opener" hint last year so this year he may just be playing it straight. Maybe spending a day with the press in LA (versus hanging out on the lake) was his punishment for spilling the beans a bit last year.

catrox14 · May 6, 2015

Uh...guys. ....Misha is tweeting live almost an hour before the episode airs on the East Coast... He's saying this is a game changer. I'm scared.

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