Rory and Logan

[ghoulina]

Well, I wouldn't necessarily compare the two. Jess was a high school student who had had a really crappy upbringing - deadbeat dad and junkie mom. He really had never learned to respect adults because he had no respectable adults in his life. At the time Logan and Rory begin dating, he's a college student - at a much more mature place in life than Jess. Plus, because of the circles he was raised in, he knows all about the ways of making nice with parents, how to be polite, social niceties, etc. 

[hippielamb]

On 6/6/2017 at 11:02 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

I will say this about Logan vs Jess: Logan was at least wise enough to try to get in Lorelai's good graces, especially hard as by the time he came to see her at the inn, he was indirectly responsible for Rory leaving Yale and driving a wedge between her and Rory. Watching second season and Jess being such a tremendous ass to just about everyone, especially those you were trying to be nice to him, tipped the scales back towards Logan.

I liked that too, especially because we know Logan doesn't have the bond with his parents that Rory has with Lorelai. It's a mystery to him. But he gives her respect because she's Rory's mother and he knows that Lorelai has influence with Rory. 

[Ambrosefolly]

On 6/7/2017 at 8:54 AM, ghoulina said:

Well, I wouldn't necessarily compare the two. Jess was a high school student who had had a really crappy upbringing - deadbeat dad and junkie mom. He really had never learned to respect adults because he had no respectable adults in his life. At the time Logan and Rory begin dating, he's a college student - at a much more mature place in life than Jess. Plus, because of the circles he was raised in, he knows all about the ways of making nice with parents, how to be polite, social niceties, etc. 

 

I will respond to this in the "Jess" thread.

[Lady Calypso]

On 6/6/2017 at 11:02 PM, Ambrosefolly said:

I will say this about Logan vs Jess: Logan was at least wise enough to try to get in Lorelai's good graces, especially hard as by the time he came to see her at the inn, he was indirectly responsible for Rory leaving Yale and driving a wedge between her and Rory. Watching second season and Jess being such a tremendous ass to just about everyone, especially those you were trying to be nice to him, tipped the scales back towards Logan.

Well, you're comparing Jess' first season with Logan's third season. Logan, when he first appeared on the show, didn't try to really get into Lorelai's good graces, especially when he stole from Emily and Richard's house. Logan/Rory also dated a lot longer so Logan, at some point, had to make amends with Lorelai, which didn't happen until later in season 6, but more so in season 7. Unforutnately, we never did see Jess/Lorelai make amends, except for off screen. So the situations are still quite different, even with some visible similarities, like their influences on Rory.

Plus, the revival screws all that up anyway, with Logan/Rory becoming worse people than they were in the original series, while Jess remained a better person with genuine character growth. 

[tarotx]

Taken from the one is the loneliest number thread...     

Quote

We're actually saying the same thing but with different interpretations.  I didn't mean Logan made up facts but that he forced his perceptions of the facts on Rory.   You say Logan knows his positions (his opinions, his own mind) and that Rory doesn't.  We saw Logan do this several times to Rory but the one that bothers me most is after the bridesmaid incident.  Rory was upset and confused and understandably wasn't sure what to think until Logan stepped in with his questions and guided Rory to forgiveness and going home with him.  Logan never bothers to find out how Rory feels about something or lets her figure things out for herself.  But then she treats Logan badly because she hasn't worked through her feelings, and Logan blames her for not forgiving him even though he pushed her into it until it's wiped away when Logan has his accident.

 

Logan didn't "force" his perception. The use of that word is something I will fight hard against.  Logan owned his thoughts and mind while Rory had issues standing her ground. She is like this with every strong personality. With Logan, Rory had plenty of time to talk and get her thoughts out. In this bridesmaid example, Logan even tells her to write a pro-con list because he believes it will agree with him. 

The real issue is that Rory doesn’t give her feelings. She states facts that Logan doesn’t believe are true. After they fought when Jess left in 6.8, Rory didn’t want Logan to take her home so Logan left. They didn’t speak for a couple weeks and then Logan talked to Honor who called Rory telling her Logan said he and Rory were broken up. Rory didn’t call Logan to find out what was up. She let them be broken up. 

Rory isn’t going to win this issue on rather or not Logan cheated on her. He didn’t cheat on her. And not just in his mind. She knows it. She still feels betrayed. She doesn’t know how to fight this issue and goes home with him. She’s still really hurt and doesn’t know how to deal with it and gets very passive aggressive. She hasn’t forgiven him. Which she had every right to do. Logan could be 100% in the right and Rory would still have every right to feel hurt. Those are her personal feelings. Logan can’t debate her feelings. Not once does she tell Logan that he hurt her, that he shamed her. Not once does she tell Logan that him not giving her all the info when they got back together means she can't trust him. She doesn’t talk about her feelings at all.  Logan actually talks about his feelings from the breakup. 

That’s not saying there weren’t a lot of bad in how Logan dealt with his feelings in and after 6.8. He didn’t understand Rory’s growing unease and interpreted it as an instability in their relationship. The stuff with Jess and the fight where he thinks her sadness is a comparing him with Jess when really it’s comparing herself to Jess. Though Rory isn’t amused with Logan’s attitude about his life and they go at it hard. They tell each other exactly where each other is in life. How Logan whines about but doesn’t fight his father and how Rory’s life is open for her to do and be anything. She has choices, she just has to make them. But the fight was dramatic and felt personal. That night spurs Rory to change her life back to before Mitchum’s job advice (bookended by her following the opinion of strong guys). She doesn’t think how relationship silence made her feel back in “To Live and Let Diorama”.  And of course, Logan went and found comfort elsewhere - which is the opposite of fixing the perceived instability. It ended up causing it to magnify. 

 

Also, there was some conversation about when Rory fell for Logan. When they met in the newsroom and Logan does his Smitty routine, Rory enjoys it. (Which is probably why he later thought doing something skit-y on a larger scale would appeal to her). Then there is all the You Jump I jump magic (the creative setting, the writers participate talk and the jump). Logan is keeping Rory on her toes while Dean is busy and still not really into the things she enjoys while Logan is of the world she dreams about. I think Rory is really liking Logan and everything but then he does the unimaginable. Messes with her learning time. This skit backfired and Rory is angry. But then Marty tells her that Logan is doing this because he's interested. And Rory gets back at Logan with the Richard prank. Then Rory finds out that Logan is a great writer and knows actual writers. Then they have the note dates which she has a great time. She's crushing big time. 

Edited September 21, 2017 by tarotx

[Guest]

Rory consistently found a way to make herself the victim in every relationship (platonic, familial, and romantic) and then act passive aggressive because, after all, she was the victim.  It's cringe-worthy.

[shron17]

On 9/19/2017 at 8:18 PM, tarotx said:

Logan didn't "force" his perception. The use of that word is something I will fight hard against.  Logan owned his thoughts and mind while Rory had issues standing her ground. She is like this with every strong personality. With Logan, Rory had plenty of time to talk and get her thoughts out. In this bridesmaid example, Logan even tells her to write a pro-con list because he believes it will agree with him. 

The real issue is that Rory doesn’t give her feelings. She states facts that Logan doesn’t believe are true. 

Rory made her feelings about what Logan did quite clear when he found her after the wedding.  But Logan never asked Rory how she felt about him presently and chose instead to use his charm and logic to convince her that he didn't cheat and that she should just forget about it.  So he won and she went home with him, but Logan ignored the probability that she still had strong feelings of anger and betrayal and it backfired.  Sure, Rory should have handled it differently and not kept assuring Logan they were okay, but he doesn't seem able to give her a safe space to talk about her feelings without needing to defend herself.  I don't understand why the fact that Rory needs time to think and process to know her feelings means she's wrong and Logan's right since he knows his own mind.  In many relationships one person is more assertive and one more passive but that doesn't mean the more assertive person can just steamroll right over the other person's feelings without consequence.  This dynamic of their relationship played out again when Logan accepted the job in San Francisco, proposed and offered Rory a new life without bothering to discuss it with her.  When she balked at his plan, and explained why she'd come to that decision, Logan walked away saying it was all or nothing. 

On 9/19/2017 at 8:18 PM, tarotx said:

Rory isn’t going to win this issue on rather or not Logan cheated on her. He didn’t cheat on her. And not just in his mind. She knows it.

Well that's one possible perception, but I agree with what Rory said in Bridesmaids "To break up, you have to tell the other person."  Yes, Rory refused to leave with Logan after the fight but neither said it's over.  And Rory didn't call after but neither did Logan; yet he was the one who started sleeping with others.  Their "relationship silence" in Diorama is completely irrelevant since they were not in a relationship at that point.  I don't agree that Rory knows Logan didn't cheat on her, but think she didn't think he was capable of/willing to see her point of view and gave up.  In fact, I think it's possible that Rory's passiveness with Logan stems from fear that he'll end the relationship if she disagrees with him. 

These are just my opinions, and I understand that others see it differently.  Since you quoted my post I replied but I'm not really interested in debating Logan and Rory.

[tarotx]

Directly quoting my post and discussing what my post said seemed to me you wanted to debate about it. That's why I took it out of the unpopular opinion thread in the first place.

Rory went back to Logan's but then she took off for Stars Hollow for 2 days after she found out about the bridesmaids. She didn't tell him she was going. She then comes back and Logan asks if everything is OK and she says yes. Then continues to be here and gone without telling him where she was going. Instead, she's passive aggressive switching his alarm, taking his article from him. Rory really needs to learn to communicate. 

Rory and Logan weren't in a relationship in Diorama but Logan not calling her and talking to her made her feel like shit. She got drunk and cried in her mother's arms. You can't just stop talking to people when that isn't the norm and expect them to think everything is as it had been. Especially when the fight seemed to be over another Guy. And I can't see how anyone thinks they aren't officially broken up when Honor calls and Rory doesn't call Logan. I just don't see how anyone can think they weren't broken officially on Thanksgiving.  

Rory and Logan talked about it the night she found out and then she doesn't talk about it afterward. She runs away to hide not to figure things out.  And then keeps avoiding him except to cause little hurts his way. 

Logan asks Rory to marry him because he thinks they are on the same page. In Farewell, my Pet they have the talk about belonging to each other and how they aren't worried about themselves as a couple. Plus in Hay Bale maze how she (as did he), in general, would like to fact Logan in. Then he gets the Job in California so finds a place to rent near where he would work and where she would have a lot of job opportunity. He asks Rory to marry him. She says no because she wants her life wide open. When she says no she has no job, had really hated when they had to have long distance and says no because she wants her life wide open. 

When she explains why she's saying no ... "there are just a lot of things right now in my life that are undecided. And that used to scare me, but now I-I kind of like the idea that...it’s just all kind of...wide open. And if I married you, it just wouldn't be."  Rory Knew what she wanted.  She had been thinking about this for a few weeks couple. She had the conversation with Paris. Rory knows she's ready to try Long distance again. Paris even tells her, "Then again, choosing to be apart might be... choosing to be apart".  Rory might have been blindsided about the proposal but she wasn't about everything else. Rory should have taken that conversation with Paris and discussed it with Logan as soon as returned. Logan feels like Rory choosing not to Marry him is her way to slowly remove the bandage to them breaking up. I can imagine that he felt it would be like what happened with Dean and eventually happens with Paul. Rory moves on without telling the guy she has moved on. And Logan let Rory have her wide open life. 

By the way, the whole point of what I was originally saying in the first place is that Rory isn't just this way with Logan. She doesn't stand her ground with everybody. This isn't a Rory Logan. This is a Rory issues. She doesn't stand her ground. She actually stands her ground more with Logan than anyone. Usually, she gets Passive or allows the stronger personality to win. Just her leaving Yale is bookended with Rory listening to Mitchum and then the This isn't you stuff with Jess (and the You can be anything if you want a change -change it shout from Logan in their fight).  With no self-reflection in between.

[JustaPerson]

I don't know if I feel quite this strongly (or negatively) about Rory and Logan together haha. I weirdly always liked Logan more than Rory. 

[katha]

On 2.10.2017 at 4:51 AM, tarotx said:

By the way, the whole point of what I was originally saying in the first place is that Rory isn't just this way with Logan. She doesn't stand her ground with everybody. This isn't a Rory Logan. This is a Rory issues. She doesn't stand her ground. She actually stands her ground more with Logan than anyone. Usually, she gets Passive or allows the stronger personality to win. Just her leaving Yale is bookended with Rory listening to Mitchum and then the This isn't you stuff with Jess (and the You can be anything if you want a change -change it shout from Logan in their fight).  With no self-reflection in between.

I really, really agree with this. And this is shown as one of the main problem areas in Rory's life. It basically happens with almost everybody (perhaps excepting Lane...and interestingly Luke, where I do think it might actually be grounded in him somewhat recognizing this about her and going out of his way not to force her hand in anything): She gets steamrolled by Lorelai, her grandparents, Paris, all her boyfriends, you name it.  She's incapbale of arguments and conflict. She often enough doesn't voice an opinion at all. Then she grows resentful that she's agreed to things she actually doesn't want to do and becomes passive aggressive about it all.

That's also one main reason I think she wouldn't work at all with Jess. He is so strong-willed, and in his worse moments rather rigid about it as well, it would lead to endless frustration between them. Either she'd get steamrolled as usual and react in her usual passive aggressive ways. Or Jess would have to hold back to a degree that would be super stifling for his personality, which would end in frustration as well.

[Nostariel]

7 hours ago, katha said:

That's also one main reason I think she wouldn't work at all with Jess. He is so strong-willed, and in his worse moments rather rigid about it as well, it would lead to endless frustration between them. Either she'd get steamrolled as usual and react in her usual passive aggressive ways. Or Jess would have to hold back to a degree that would be super stifling for his personality, which would end in frustration as well.

This is why Jess/Paris is my crackship OTP. 

[theotherhalliwell]

I was wondering how, if at all, the revival affected the way people view this couple. Do you like them less than you used to? More than you used to? You like or love them equally in the original series and the revival? You dislike them in both the original series and the revival? 

[tarotx]

There was a Tumblr post that I replied too that helps to explain my opinion. Which is I've always loved them but now more so than ever. 

http://tarotx.tumblr.com/post/166696472999/really-unpopular-opinion-that-reveals-how-nuts-i

[ghoulina]

1 hour ago, theotherhalliwell said:

I was wondering how, if at all, the revival affected the way people view this couple. Do you like them less than you used to? More than you used to? You like or love them equally in the original series and the revival? You dislike them in both the original series and the revival? 

Both? LOL. I was never a Rogan shipper. Couldn't stand Logan. But at the very start of the revival, I surprised myself by being happy to see her with Logan. But as it got more in depth, and I realized the extent of his relationship and what was really going on with them, I was right back to hating this match. To me, they're an example of love not always being enough and how you can fall hard for the wrong person. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

2 hours ago, theotherhalliwell said:

I was wondering how, if at all, the revival affected the way people view this couple. Do you like them less than you used to? More than you used to? You like or love them equally in the original series and the revival? You dislike them in both the original series and the revival? 

I ship them more after the revival. I wasn't a member of the GG online community until after the revival. I become more invested in the couple after the revival. It sold me on them *IT* for each other. 

It annoyed me for a long time and still does but I realize the numerous external roadblocks, distance, faceless finance, forgettable boyfriend etc was needed to keep them apart. ASP wouldn't have been able to achieve her goal otherwise. 

Edited November 6, 2017 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[NumberCruncher]

3 hours ago, theotherhalliwell said:

I was wondering how, if at all, the revival affected the way people view this couple. Do you like them less than you used to? More than you used to? You like or love them equally in the original series and the revival? You dislike them in both the original series and the revival? 

I don't know how I feel about them at this point.  I HATED what ASP did to them in the revival--especially after all of the character growth we saw in seasons 6 & 7 (particularly in Logan's case)--but I can't say I hate them.  If they were real people, then yeah I probably would, but this is TV land and the one thing the show keeps reinforcing is that, even despite their large flaws, they are still in love with each other.  That said, I don't think ASP would ever write them as getting over all the respective things holding them back from being together (i.e. Logan's family issues, Rory's lack of direction, etc.), so I don't see them ever having a happily ever after.  ASP seems to relish her repetitive and unoriginal storylines/themes so I don't think she would ever deviate from the Logan/Rory vs. Christopher/Lorelai comparisons.  This point was only reinforced when she made Rory a carbon copy of her mother in the revival.

[tarotx]

Imo Rory is not a carbon copy of her mom in the revival. She has ended up in the same curveball their mother and daughter relationship started. But Rory's revival arc is closer to Christopher of s1-s2. From first seeming a success but that not exactly the truth - to telling Lorelai curveball baby news at a wedding. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

7 minutes ago, tarotx said:

Imo Rory is not a carbon copy of her mom in the revival. She has ended up in the same curveball their mother and daughter relationship started. But Rory's revival arc is closer to Christopher of s1-s2. From first seeming a success but that not exactly the truth - to telling Lorelai curveball baby news at a wedding. 

Rory was not a deadbeat like her father and that is what Christopher was. That is one is yet another symmetry, I object.

She wasn't satisfied with the turn in her career but she was never shown to be slacking about pr that she hadn't enjoyed a successful career thus far. It was not paid but she fought for and worked for the town's paper while in between gigs. Christopher never showed that hustle or passion for anything in all the time he was on the show.

I disregard any and all character parallels from both fans and ASP because no one character is that much like another. Least of all Rory to either of her parents. They are all more complex than that. 

[Taryn74]

5 hours ago, theotherhalliwell said:

I was wondering how, if at all, the revival affected the way people view this couple. Do you like them less than you used to? More than you used to? You like or love them equally in the original series and the revival? You dislike them in both the original series and the revival? 

I don't even like Rory anymore after the Revival, much less Rory + Logan.

[tarotx]

On 11/6/2017 at 8:27 PM, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Rory was not a deadbeat like her father and that is what Christopher was. That is one is yet another symmetry, I object.

She wasn't satisfied with the turn in her career but she was never shown to be slacking about pr that she hadn't enjoyed a successful career thus far. It was not paid but she fought for and worked for the town's paper while in between gigs. Christopher never showed that hustle or passion for anything in all the time he was on the show.

I disregard any and all character parallels from both fans and ASP because no one character is that much like another. Least of all Rory to either of her parents. They are all more complex than that. 

No I definitely don't think Rory's a deadbeat. I'm not saying that. She has good friends. Chris had no one and nothing. Rory also has a career just isn't as successful as she planned and is currently adrift because the industry has changed or maybe she was never right for it. But her arc has similarities to early Chris's. Not the same because Rory the Character Isn't the Same as either of her parents. She doesn't have their personality. Or history. Her relationship to Lorelai is different. None of these characters are the same. 

Really Amy Just repeats herself. In the OS Luke was given his own Rory like daughter he Never saw as a child. I guess To make Chris look better? Luke didn't know about her so Not As bad but once again Lorelai is Dealing with the curveball of a child. This wasn't at a wedding but it messes with Lorelai's wedding. 

I've Just watched the show too much. I mean I can see the similarities in the Richard/Emily separation arc and the Rory/Logan one a season later. They don't look the same but the beats do. A fight over an Ex, a separation, Logan hooks up with some girls/Emily goes on a date. Then there is an accident and reconciliation. 

I need to step away from the show. I haven't been away from it since the atx festival. It's eating my brain....

Edited November 8, 2017 by tarotx

[Guest]

This is a hard question to answer.  As a couple, I don't think I changed my mind on them - I always thought Logan was her best match that we saw on the show. However, I liked them each a lot less as individuals.   So their overall "couple points" went down. But then at the same time I thought they deserved each other.

[macstarli]

Quote

Gah, can't make this quote box disappear...

On 08/06/2018 at 9:41 PM, marineg said:

And I'm not even gonna argue with you about Logan, because in my opinion he did what every person receiving a "no" to a marriage proposal do... and that's walk. How can you keep being with someone who you know doesn't want to spend their life with you? You say Logan could have stuck around and wait for Rory, but Rory could have said "yes I want to marry you, but are you okay with having a long engagement?" It's not the case here. The only thing she offered was a long-distance relationship, which is quite the opposite of what Logan wanted, which was to spend all his days with her. She didn't want to go to SF, she didn't want to get married. And as much as Rory shouldn't have to move to SF just to be with a guy, Logan shouldn't have to not move to SF just for a girl.

(Quote taken from Unpopular Opinions Thread because there's a whole different discussion going on over there and this is really just a jumping off point for me to talk at length about Rory and Logan.)

It's about twenty minutes til midnight over here and I should be going to sleep right about two hours ago, but reading the quote above struck a chord with me and I felt the need to put it down somewhere, so instead I'm gonna ramble here for a bit. I also put myself through re-watching the rejection scene, so that's gonna be quoted quite a bit.

Rory: I'm sorry... I can't. I love you. You know how much I love you. I love the idea of being married to you, but.. there are just a lot of things right now in my life that are undecided and that used to scare me, but know I kind of like the idea that it's just all kind of... wide open. And if I married you it just wouldn't be.

I have so many thoughts on Rory's decision and the why's of her saying no and those thoughts have changed and broadened quite a bit as I've gotten older and gathered some more understanding of her situation, but regardless of all of that, I think it's quite clear from what she's saying, that Rory is not ready or willing to deliberately make room for Logan in her future. She doesn't want to "factor him in" as it were. She's looking at her future and everything she wants to do and she wants Logan in there as well, but very much of the side and not impeding her decision making in any way. She wants build a life with him in it, but at this point in time she doesn't want to build a life together with him. And if that's how she feels she is completely right in saying no to his proposal. Because everything that Logan was talking about and excited about (the house, the paper, their life together) isn't what she wants right now. Later, once she's settled down, yes, but not right now. Right now she doesn't want to bind herself to him in a way that requires her to take him into account that way (which is a very Lorelai-thing, both senior and junior).

Logan: So what, I stay in San Francisco, you stay in the east and we see each other occasionally? 

Rory: Well, we can try long distance. We've done it before. 

I think what's important here, is that Rory doesn't really offer any kind of reassurance of her commitment to him or their relationship in her response to him, other than a vague unwillingness to let things permanently end. At this moment there's really no particular reason for her not to go to San Francisco with him, even if they don't get engaged, if she wanted to. She doesn't have a job offer that is keeping her on the east coast or even an idea of what she wants to do that is keeping her here. Like she said, her future is wide open. That changes in the next episode, but very much out of the blue and there is no way of knowing how Logan would have reacted to that job offer other than speculation. Personally I think he would have supported her in it, but like I said, that's speculation.

But keeping in mind her wide open future, at this point not only is Rory saying, I don't want to marry you right now, she's also saying, I would rather put us through another long-distance relationshop for an indeterminded amount of time for no particular reason other than I don't want to go to San Francisco with you.  That's about as far away as you can get from building a life together, which is what Logan wants. And, again, it's okay that Rory doesn't. She's under no obligation to follow him to San Francisco, just because his job is moving him there, but it does say a lot about their current relationship and just how she looks at it and how invested she is in it, that she seems to have completely decided against that. Not just against an engagement and marriage, but all of it.  And Logan knows, just as he told her in the Hay Bale Maze, that if she'd been the first to settle her future, that he'd have followed her wherever she meant to go. And it must really hurt, that even with nothing currently holding her back, she doesn't feel the same way, which leads to his next... well, technically it's a question, but it's really more of a statement.

Logan: You really think that's gonna work?

Because for him, he knows it's not going to work. He has just realized, that he is far more invested in their relationship and their future and their life together than she is at this point and I'm fairly certain all he can see is them growing further and further apart as she explores her wide open future far away from him and by her own admission without any consideration of him or their relationship for god knows how long. 

Rory: I think it would be hard, but -

And Rory's got nothing to put against that. Again, she's got no words of reassurance as to how their relationship is going to continue after this point, a relationship, by the way, that has just been dealt a fairly major blow and whose participants are in the process of realizing that they are not nearly on the same page as to what their relationship is right now. That's not an easy situation to deal with under ideal circumstances and what Rory is proposing is certainly less than ideal, with a huge amount of distance between them and both of them in the process of establishing themselves in their work enviroments.

Logan: I don't wanna do that, Rory, I don't wanna go backwards. If we can't take the next step...

It's only after this sentence that Rory truly seems to realize, that this is going to be the end of their relationship. Up until that point a part of her genuinly seemed to believe, that Logan would agree to continuing their relationship on her terms and I think that's a really huge indicator of how little she understands the implication of everything she just said. Or maybe rather, of everything she didn't say. Because Logan is just looking her, still processing how completely and utterly wrong he was about her, about everything, and she's really giving him nothing to hold onto. Which is why next she says -

Rory: Does it have to be all or nothing?

And I know that Logan is about to say yes to that, but personally I don't think that's actually true, allthough I'm sure it felt true enough while he said it. I think he says it, because it's what the situation ended up being and he's feeling incredible raw and hurt and is still trying to come to terms with everything that just happened and then she uses those words, more or less putting them in his mouth, but really I think all he's looking for is something. Anything, really, after the blow he's just been dealt. Like he says, he doesn't want go to backwards to some vague long distance relationship. He wants to build on everything they've had over the last few months in particular and the last few years in general and I think if Rory had given him any indication that she wanted that as well, it didn't necessarily have to mean marriage or an engagment. Just something more than the nothing she was currently offering. 

Which is why I think they really had to break up going on everything that was just said. Because Rory loves him, yes, and she can see herself marrying him in the distant future, yes, but right now, she can't or doesn't want to give him anything more than what she just offered and that is not going to be enough. I think Logan would have been okay with a long engangement or a number of other things, but Rory can't offer that, because it's still more than she wants to give of herself right now. Which, based on her answer to his proposal, isn't really much of anything. And that is completely valid and her right. But it's also no way of being in a long term relationship, especially one where the other partner wants so much more. Which is why for Logan it really sums up perfectly in one sentence.

Logan: What's the point?

What's the point of hurting himself (and Rory) by staying in a relationship, that is barely even a relationship anymore, just so watch them drift apart and make them resent each other, because he knows that he wants more than she can give him? What's the point of hoping that the potentially years they spent living parallel lifes far away from each other with no end in sight doesn't inevitably end with them falling out of love or one of them meeting someone new they spark with, someone who is actually there? What's the point in draging this out painfully for both of them when in this moment it's so clear, that they're relationship has just been rocked to it's core in a way it's highly unlikely to recover from?

I don't really blame either one of them for the break up, but watching this scene always makes me resent how little thought Rory seems to have put into what her saying no means. I don't know if she was in denial, desperatly wanting to believe that she wasn't going to loose Logan, because of course she didn't want to lose him. But I really don't see how his reaction can take her so completely by surprise, that she doesn't have a response for him as to what their relationship is going to be, if they don't get engaged and she's not going to come to San Francisco. She knows that this is what's going to happen, so how can this not be the end of their relationship? And if she does know it and she's thought about it and she really has got nothing to reassure him about her comittment to him and their relationship, what's the point of making him issue that "ultimatum" and making him essentially be the one who ends it rather than accepting that her "no" is the end of their relationship?

[Taryn74]

27 minutes ago, macstarli said:

And I'm not even gonna argue with you about Logan, because in my opinion he did what every person receiving a "no" to a marriage proposal do... and that's walk.

 

27 minutes ago, macstarli said:

I don't really blame either one of them for the break up, but watching this scene always makes me resent how little thought Rory seems to have put into what her saying no means.

 

I agree with both of you!  If Logan was staying in the area and proposed and Rory said no, so he broke up with her, I could kinda see people's point about him being all 'my way or the highway'.  But he was moving all the way across the country and his girlfriend just told him she wasn't interested in moving with him, even though she didn't have a job or anything tying her down.  What exactly was he supposed to do at that point?

[Guest]

Even if he were staying in the area, I think at some point you get to a relationship where it is either move forward or break up. It’s unusual for a show to have the guy the one who wants commitment while the female is the one who wants freedom, but in real life, it can easily be either.

They'd been mostly together for three years, lived together, done a long distance relationship. While I can see from Rory’s perspective that they were young and had plenty of time, I can’t fault Logan for thinking if he wasn’t “the one” after three-ish years, when would he be?

[macstarli]

7 hours ago, deaja said:

Even if he were staying in the area, I think at some point you get to a relationship where it is either move forward or break up. It’s unusual for a show to have the guy the one who wants commitment while the female is the one who wants freedom, but in real life, it can easily be either.

They'd been mostly together for three years, lived together, done a long distance relationship. While I can see from Rory’s perspective that they were young and had plenty of time, I can’t fault Logan for thinking if he wasn’t “the one” after three-ish years, when would he be?

That's really interesting (and I think you're completely right) and it made me think about what would have happened if Logan hadn't proposed and I think there's actually a decent chance that they would have broken up either way. It probably comes down to the sequence of events, like when they have the conversation about what's gonna happen after graduation and if she already had her job offer, but while their break up ends up being presented as hinging on whether or not she wants to get married I actually think the thing that kills them is that she isn't coming to San Francisco, that her wide open future and her unwillingness to consider them in making deciscions for it precludes any kind of meaningful relationship in their future for as long as that is true. 

I also decided to re-watch the Hay Bale Maze scene, because it is so often quoted for being the reason for his "ultimatum" being unforgivable, that he has no right to expect her to factor him in after he told her not to do that. So there is another loooong quote coming up, because I've always been obsessed with working as close to the text as possible... 

Logan: So you know, when you were making that pro/con list last night? (...) I kinda noticed that there was something on there about me.

Rory: Oh, yeah, I didn't know where to put you. 

Logan: Yeah, I saw that, I saw you put Logan and there where like three question marks. 

Rory: Well, there are just so many factors. I wasn't sure to what extent I should factor you in.

Logan: Well, I want you to know I don't want you to factor me in.

Rory: Oh... Okay.

Logan: No! I mean... I'm not sure exactly what I'm going to be doing next and I know I wanna start putting my ideas out and I know I wanna start working, but I think you should do what you wanna do and then, then maybe I factor you in. 

Rory: Oh. You wanna factor me in. 

Logan: Yeah. I like that. If you're in Providence, maybe I come live in Providence.

Rory: That'd be great. - But just in general, I'd like to factor you in, too. 

Logan: Okay. Well, for this one, you make your deciscion based on what you want for you, you do what you want. 

Rory: Okay. - I know what I really want. (...) I wanna go for the fellowship. I'm gonna say no to the (other thing I can't quite make out and have no idea how to spell).

Logan: Okay.

Rory: Okay. Yeah, I'm gonna go for it.

So, for me, I've come to the conclusion that it's really unfair to hold this scene against him, because it happened under very specific cirumstances. For one, it happened while they were both under the impression that Rory would be the first one to settle her future, because, for another thing, she was in the middle of making a very concrete deciscion and he is telling her not to worry about him while she is making that very specific decision, which makes sense, because he is in a position where he can give her that. He doesn't currently have anything lined up (just like Rory doesn't, when he proposes and thinks she's gonna come with him) and he has his feelers out everywhere, so once he's got a reason to limit his scope for her, he can do that without any kind of issue. That changes afterwards and I don't think either one of them was taking this conversation to mean that he was going to stop looking for a job until Rory had figured things out for her, just that for the time being, while things were like this, she shouldn't worry too much about him. And again, this conversation didn't happen out of the blue, with no context, it happened because he was reassuring her about a concrete choice she was in the immediate process of making and which she made immediatly after he finishes saying what he says. And her choice ends up not working out, while he is California and realizing that he is about have something he is really excited about. And Rory knows he is California, buidling contacts and what not, so again, she clearly didn't expect him to just completely drop everything and wait for her to decide what she wants to do. Hence this conversation in Lorelai? Lorelai?.

Rory: Oh, that's okay, I'm just glad it's going well. Do you think they are gonna make you an offer?

Logan: I don't know, it's hard to tell, this guys play things pretty close to the vest. 

Rory: Well, I'm sure they will. 

(...)

Logan: I love you.

Rory: I love you, too.

Logan: And hey, don't worry about the times or the final or any of it. I have a feeling in the next couple of days you will have moved on and forgotten all about this.

Rory: I don't know.

Logan: Things will be looking up, I promise. 

Rory knows he is out there actively looking for a job, without any clear idea of what her future is (because of course that's what he has to do) and she is very actively supportive of it. Logans happy smile as she says, she's sure they're gonna make him an offer, is utterly beautiful and you can just tell that he has a pretty good idea of what's going to happen next and he takes it as a sign of her wanting that as well, of her being aware of his future and approving of it and wanting to be and seeing herself in it. Which isn't really an unreasonable thought, considering both their relationship at that point and the fact that in the conversation before the Hay Bale Maze she actually says, that she wants to factor him into her future. Yes, he tells her not to worry about it, but again, that was said in a context that has since been vastly changed, which they are both completely aware of and given Rory's current situation and her behaviour in regards to his dealings in California he has really no reason to think that she has completely changed her mind and in fact doesn't want to factor him into her future at all for (and this really can't be said enough) no specific reason other than she doesn't want to. And again, she knows things are in the works for him and she is rooting for that, so it's not like she is completely blind sided by the fact that he might have things settled before her, meaning it will then be incredible difficult for him to factor her in. 

Which is why I think they're potential break-up without a proposal comes down to the sequence of events. If she gets the job offer quickly enough, thus giving her a reason for not being able to go to San Francisco, I don't think Logan would hold that against her or their relationship. No, he probably wouldn't be thrilled at another long distance relationship, but neither would she, because why would they be. But it wouldn't make him feel like Rory just doesn't feel the same way about him as he does for her and thus make him question the entire relationship and it would actually come with at least some kind of end date build in, so depending on if they talked about what might happen after and Rory just generally agreeing that they are gonna reconfigure and see what happens after the campagne trail together I think they would have been fine. 

If they had a conversation about San Francisco before she has that job offer and she still doesn't want to come with him I think they're relationship is doomed whether marriage ever comes into it or not and I think that's just logistics. If Rory's not going to consider him in her career choices, there is absolutely no garantuee as to where she is going to end up and it likely won't be close enough to him to make an every day relationship feasable. In fact considering that she is deliberatly deciding against leaving with him after just having graduated from college with nothing holding her back, it's probably easy to assume that she might choose something that keeps her close to her home town and her mom, because that's where she wants to be more than she wants to be with him. And if they are plannind on building two seperate lives with no end date in sight until one of them decides that enough is enough and to uproot that life to bring it closer to the other person, I think Logan would have decided against staying in a relationship with her and I really can't hold that against him. (And yes, I know the actual job ends up being different and actually extremly difficult to factor in for Logan had he waited, but they don't know that until, well, until they know that.)

It reminds me of what my mom used to tell me, that it's surpisingly common for people to get divorce just as they get retired, because it's a major change in their lives and suddenly they realize that up until then things had worked perfectly fine, but now they might have very different expectations as to what they are gonna do with their future that can't really co-exist and so they split.  So I guess my tl;dr is that college graduation is another one of those crossroads that often leads to couples seperating (as Paris actually points out in an earlier episode) and they were going to have to make a decision for that crossroad whether Logan proposed or not and Rory's decision probably wasn't going to change even if's not linked to becoming engaged.

[marineg]

This is an appreciation post for @macstarli. Basically all you say is what's been in my heart for the past decade. 

I understand that relationships may take of life of their own and become something you may no have expected. And it seems to be the case for Rory. She loved him, she wanted to be with him, but when she looked closely at the relationship and the stage it had reached, she realised she wasn't ready. And that's fine I guess. What irks me is that she made no effort in the "discussion". There are a hundred ways that they could have found a way to be together without having one or the others feel cheated out of something. As you say, there are no reasons why she couldn't spend her aimless post-grad time on the east coast. She could have agreed to move in with him and wait a bit to get married, she could have agreed to move to SF but not live with him as she wasn't ready, she could have moved to Portland or Seattle or Los Angeles. That's farther than hoped, but it's still a relatively short flight to SF and they could have spent their week-ends together. I just think that when she said "Does it have to be all or nothing?" she wasn't being fair, because Logan would have made any effort. She was the one who offered nothing. 

And she wasn't being very honest with Logan or herself during the conversation because first of all she acted as if she was trying to make thing work, when, as we said, she made no effort, but also because after the fact, she didn't seem that stunned. She was more heart-broken when drunk and crying on the bathroom floor than when they broke-up. That most-break-up felt like she knew it was inevitable, which contradicts what she said to Logan...

Edited June 10, 2018 by marineg

[macstarli]

11 minutes ago, marineg said:

This is an appreciation post for @macstarli. Basically all you say is what's been in my heart for the past decade. 

Thank you so much! This makes me so happy, because I felt kind of bad basically just repeating what you had already said, just in a really long winded way, but I desperately needed to put my thoughts down somewhere. And the more I think about it the less I understand why some people think it was Logan's job in that moment to not let their relationship end. Rory kind of tries to put it on him with the "all or nothing" thing, but why should he have a compromise ready for her? He has already told her what he wants, he believed that's what she wanted as well and so he's obviously reeling from the fact that he was so completely and utterly wrong about that, so why should he be in any kind of frame of mind to be able to start negotiations on how their relationship might continue? He wasn't the one who knew how this conversation was going to go and he wasn't the one who needed to prove to Rory that he was commited to their joint future, because he had just proposed and made his feelings towards her pretty clear. Any kind of suggestion from him wouldn't have solved anything, because Rory was the one who needed to communicate her feelings and her thoughts and reassure him about how much she wanted their relationship to work even if she wasn't ready for marriage yet.

And really I think it's unfair to not only expect him to be able to sort through his emotions and general inner workings quickly (in a matter of minutes, probably even seconds really) enough to realize that he didn't need marriage from her, just any kind of indication that she felt the same way about him as he felt about her, but then also actually go ahead and basically beg for that, when the mere fact that she's had time to think about this and come up with what to say and how their relationship might work, if she was at all interested in actually conserving that relationship, and yet gave him absolutely nothing, should already answer that question. Plus, you know, he had literally just offered her everything and had been soundly rejected, I can see why actively trying to talk her into giving him scrapes after that doesn't come naturally and really, he shouldn't have to. She's the one who didn't like what he wanted for their future, she's the one who should have had a different plan, if only because last time he thought he knew what she wanted he was wrong.

And you're completely right, Rory is weirdly stoic about all of this, there's not really anything more than a token effort made to save their relationship, there's not really a lot of asking him not to walk away, that they can make this work, and there doesn't seem to be any kind of desperation that she is loosing something she is holding extremly dear and that she's trying to keep that from happening. I think if she had, she might not have even needed a counter plan. Just the mere fact that she feels that strongly about loosing him, might have been enough for Logan and could have faciliated a conversation where they both actually talk about their feelings in-depth and hopefully that would have lead both of them towards a conversation of what their relationship could look like if Rory wasn't ready to get married, but Logan still needed some kind of reassurance that they were in this for the long haul.

[marineg]

23 minutes ago, macstarli said:

Thank you so much! This makes me so happy, because I felt kind of bad basically just repeating what you had already said, just in a really long winded way, but I desperately needed to put my thoughts down somewhere.

I love long posts. I always feel bad because I'm the girl who quotes things and writes long posts, and then I go back and try to shorten it so not to piss people off. Long explanations with lots of details are the best.

Back to Rory and Logan. I think that worst thing here is that the proposal is not coming out of nowhere. I'm watching season 7 right now, and there are indications that it's coming. My only complaint in Logan's plan is to do it in front of a bunch of people, at her graduation party (which takes place before she graduates?! weird..) Logan has been nothing but a perfect boyfriend for most of the relationship, if not strictly after their break-up (I'm not gonna get into it, but they were broken up and he didn't cheat.) He was present for her at all times, even when in London, as he called her everyday even though he had to work. He came back from London on two separate occasions, surprising her with her favourite foods and romantic settings. He sent her gifts and care packages. He kept her apprised of his life constantly. He volunteered information and was open about everything (contrarily to Dean... or Jess... or Luke...) He dropped his work when he had a big meeting and an important deal to work out when Richard had his heart attack; he borrowed a helicopter to get to her faster, went to Hartford to pick up Richard's stuff, listened to Rory, calmed her, comforted her, never picked up his constantly ringing phone once, got her grandma drinks and food. He reasoned with her when she had a crush on her TA. He offered her to come live with him without paying for rent. ETC... I'm not saying that his behaviour is anything more than she should expect, but it is a pretty good behaviour to see in your boyfriend. he played a very active part in their relationship, always making efforts, and I'm afraid to say that that's not the case with Rory. She was always the live and let live kind of girl, who just waited for things to happen to her, not really working towards the betterment of the relationship. 

Logan talked during the proposal of not wanting to go backwards. That's because for the past 3 years, he had been working step by step, building the relationship from the ground up. Rory was kind of using him like a sherpa, standing on his back, getting carried up, while he did all the work.

[tarotx]

@macstarli @marineg and @deaja

You guys are awesome. Truly communicating what needed to be said about Logan's POV and Rory's state of mind. And vice versa. 

Edited June 10, 2018 by tarotx

[macstarli]

13 minutes ago, marineg said:

I love long posts. I always feel bad because I'm the girl who quotes things and writes long posts, and then I go back and try to shorten it so not to piss people off. Long explanations with lots of details are the best.

Back to Rory and Logan. I think that worst thing here is that the proposal is not coming out of nowhere. I'm watching season 7 right now, and there are indications that it's coming. My only complaint in Logan's plan is to do it in front of a bunch of people, at her graduation party (which takes place before she graduates?! weird..) Logan has been nothing but a perfect boyfriend for most of the relationship, if not strictly after their break-up (I'm not gonna get into it, but they were broken up and he didn't cheat.) He was present for her at all times, even when in London, as he called her everyday even though he had to work. He came back from London on two separate occasions, surprising her with her favourite foods and romantic settings. He sent her gifts and care packages. He kept her apprised of his life constantly. He volunteered information and was open about everything (contrarily to Dean... or Jess... or Luke...) He dropped his work when he had a big meeting and an important deal to work out when Richard had his heart attack; he borrowed a helicopter to get to her faster, went to Hartford to pick up Richard's stuff, listened to Rory, calmed her, comforted her, never picked up his constantly ringing phone once, got her grandma drinks and food. He reasoned with her when she had a crush on her TA. He offered her to come live with him without paying for rent. ETC... I'm not saying that his behaviour is anything more than she should expect, but it is a pretty good behaviour to see in your boyfriend. he played a very active part in their relationship, always making efforts, and I'm afraid to say that that's not the case with Rory. She was always the live and let live kind of girl, who just waited for things to happen to her, not really working towards the betterment of the relationship. 

Logan talked during the proposal of not wanting to go backwards. That's because for the past 3 years, he had been working step by step, building the relationship from the ground up. Rory was kind of using him like a sherpa, standing on his back, getting carried up, while he did all the work.

I love long posts, too! Shocking news, I'm sure. There just always seem to be a million different things to say. 

I'm not thrilled with the public proposal either, but I can kind of understand how he thought she might like to share that moment with her mom and her grandparents and I can imagine, that he might have gotten caught up in what a huge deal this was in a way. He was publicy declaring how much he loved her, how much he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her and for a guy who had spent almost his entire life believing he was gonna end up in a loveless high society marriage and sleeping with an endless line of girls I'm sure this felt like a way of reinforcing his decision and demonstrating just what she means to him. And now I'm frustrated, because I'm wording this really badly. Basically, I think he was just really excited and got lost in the grand gesture. Not ideal, but I don't hold it against him.

And I'm always blown away by what a great boyfriend Logan was, especially considering that Rory is actually really bad at being in a relationship, and I think it's such a testament to who he is and how he loves. From the second he agreed to be her boyfriend he was all in and he never regreted it for a moment. I also think for him the bar break-up was a real turning point. Not that he wasn't amazing and comitted before that, but I think going back to his old lifestyle helped him clarify just how much Rory and their relationship meant to him. He came back to her, deliberatly and actively choosing her again, because he realized that she was it for him and I don't think he ever wavered from that again for a second and I'm not sure Rory ever really caught up again after that, because she never had that moment in the same way. At least not on screen. I'm fairly certain she had it at some point between the original series and the revival. But because she had already had two different boyfriends before Logan I don't think that their original relationship ever really forced her to examine herself and what she has with Logan in the same way that commiting to her forced Logan to examine just what is he wanted from them. And because he was so certain about what he wanted and pushing them forward I don't think she quite got there in the same way until after she had lost him. 

Oh, and by the way, I'm planning on having t-shirts made that declare, he didn't f-ing cheat. I get why it hurt Rory, but this is where she really needed to figure out how to communicate and also how to deal with her emotions in a productive way. There is nothing wrong with being hurt and upset and angry while also rationally understanding that he didn't do anything wrong and was just trying to cope in the best (only?) way he knew how. Emotions don't stop just because we understand that they don't necessarily make sense. But I don't really think Rory was ever really capable of that kind of introspection.

[Taryn74]

@marineg @macstarli I would love to hear both of your insights on Revival!Logan as compared to both S5/S6 Logan, and S7 Logan. I'm one who really came to love Logan in S7, and that made me take a second look at who he really was in S5/S6, but then I feel the Revival just destroyed all of  that. Curious if you guys feel the same. 

And feel free to be as long winded as you like. I love reading it.

[marineg]

1 hour ago, macstarli said:

I love long posts, too! Shocking news, I'm sure. There just always seem to be a million different things to say. 

I'm not thrilled with the public proposal either, but I can kind of understand how he thought she might like to share that moment with her mom and her grandparents and I can imagine, that he might have gotten caught up in what a huge deal this was in a way. He was publicy declaring how much he loved her, how much he wanted to spend the rest of his life with her and for a guy who had spent almost his entire life believing he was gonna end up in a loveless high society marriage and sleeping with an endless line of girls I'm sure this felt like a way of reinforcing his decision and demonstrating just what she means to him. And now I'm frustrated, because I'm wording this really badly. Basically, I think he was just really excited and got lost in the grand gesture. Not ideal, but I don't hold it against him.

I get that. But apart from her parents and grandparents, it was a whole bunch of people we didn't know. There was no Sookie or Jackson or Michel or Lane or Zach or Paris or Doyle (which is weird since its her graduation party.) There wasn't most of the people she loved and who loved her. And same, you say he wanted to make a public acknowledgement that he had changed, that he wasn't the playboy anymore, and that he was committed to her. But like I said, most the people there don't know him. That kind of "proof" should have been done in front of his family. Wouldn't that weight more? To show his dad that he wasn't the same screwed-up kid that crashed a yacht? To show his mother and grandfather that Rory was the woman for him and that he was dedicated to making their relationship work? Yes, it would mean a lot to the Gilmores to know that he has changed and would care for their daughter/grand-daughter. But in terms of proving he is mature and responsible in a way he wasn't prior to meeting Rory, that would be better demonstrated in front of the Huntzbergers.

Had he wanted to do a public proposal like that, to prove to both families the strength of their relationship and the love their share, he could have planned a party himself, with only the people who really matter to them. That's just a thought.

 

1 hour ago, macstarli said:

And I'm always blown away by what a great boyfriend Logan was, especially considering that Rory is actually really bad at being in a relationship, and I think it's such a testament to who he is and how he loves. From the second he agreed to be her boyfriend he was all in and he never regreted it for a moment. I also think for him the bar break-up was a real turning point. Not that he wasn't amazing and comitted before that, but I think going back to his old lifestyle helped him clarify just how much Rory and their relationship meant to him. He came back to her, deliberatly and actively choosing her again, because he realized that she was it for him and I don't think he ever wavered from that again for a second and I'm not sure Rory ever really caught up again after that, because she never had that moment in the same way. At least not on screen. I'm fairly certain she had it at some point between the original series and the revival. But because she had already had two different boyfriends before Logan I don't think that their original relationship ever really forced her to examine herself and what she has with Logan in the same way that commiting to her forced Logan to examine just what is he wanted from them. And because he was so certain about what he wanted and pushing them forward I don't think she quite got there in the same way until after she had lost him. 

YES. But that comes from a place of seduction too. Rory was used to having people choose her. She never really pursued anyone. Yes, she did have the wedding thing with Logan but let's be honest, he was hooked the moment she put on the gorilla mask. But Rory wasn't then. She was still with Dean. With every boyfriend she had, there was an imbalance in the level of attraction. In most of the relationship, but mainly in how the relationship was formed. With Dean, he watched her (creepy) for weeks before talking to her. She had no idea who he was until he approached her. She didn't pursue him. He pursued her and she gave in. Same with Jess. There was no feelings at first from Rory. When Jess got to town and had that dinner (that didn't happen) at Lorelai's, the second Rory walked out of her bedroom and into the kitchen, Jess was bewitched. Looking at his face when he sees her says it all. And again, for the next year or so, he pursued her. Everything he did, he did to make her smile, to entertain her, to make her fall in love with him. And then, there was Dean again. He was married, but he always looked at her, found a way to see her, to meet her, to talk to her. She was nicely at Yale minding her own business and he kept surreptitiously seducing her. Finally, like I said, Logan was hooked the moment she showed her smarts. Even before the gorilla mask, but when she was hanging up the old dead man posters. He saw something in her and never let go. 
Basically, what I am trying to say, is that (like I said in my previous post) Rory is pretty passive in her relationships. She lets the men choose her, seduce her, and then she caves. And I think that that leads to more issues. Like the possessiveness of the men she dates. Or the fact that she can't really commit to any of them. It's a systematic consequence of the way the relationship begins. If she doesn't instinctively and thoughtfully choose the men she loves, does she really love them? If she doesn't have that roaring fire inside of her, that inexplicable attraction, that undeniable feeling that she wants them more than anything else, is it real? Are those relationships born out of convenience from her? Aren't the men she dates always more involved, dedicated, in love than she is?

[This brings me to something I hate about the show. For every guy (her age), the second they set their eyes on Rory, they fall in love with her, and in a possessive way. Not possessive with her, but towards others. Like Marty. He felt like she owed him more than she owed Logan, who she was dating. Same for Logan when she went out on a date with Robert. And don't get me started on Dean.]

 

1 hour ago, macstarli said:

Oh, and by the way, I'm planning on having t-shirts made that declare, he didn't f-ing cheat. I get why it hurt Rory, but this is where she really needed to figure out how to communicate and also how to deal with her emotions in a productive way. There is nothing wrong with being hurt and upset and angry while also rationally understanding that he didn't do anything wrong and was just trying to cope in the best (only?) way he knew how. Emotions don't stop just because we understand that they don't necessarily make sense. But I don't really think Rory was ever really capable of that kind of introspection.

They were broken up. Whether or not they broke up after the Jess thing, the hook-ups happened at Thanksgiving and Christmas. Rory got the call from Honor "telling" her that they had broken up before dinner at Thanksgiving. I'm thinking Logan didn't have sex before cocktails for I'm assuming it was after the call. They all happened after the cal. Even if they weren't broken up before the call, they were broken up after. And therefore he didn't cheat.

And once you've said that, you know that she had no real reason to go the Philadelphia to cheat on Logan with Jess. Okay, maybe she didn't go with that express intention, but she did try once she was there, and her boyfriend was halfway around the world. That is wrong. Sleeping with girls when you are broken up isn't. But trying to sleep with your ex, who is the reason for the recent break-up with your boyfriend, while said boyfriend is on a crazy vacation, is absolutely wrong. And the fact is that she never told Logan. She complained that he never told her that he had sex while they were broken up, but found it absolutely normal to drive 3.5 hours each way to hook up with your ex, and not mention it to your boyfriend, with whom you have trust issues, and who has trust issues himself.

 

29 minutes ago, Taryn74 said:

@marineg @macstarli I would love to hear both of your insights on Revival!Logan as compared to both S5/S6 Logan, and S7 Logan. I'm one who really came to love Logan in S7, and that made me take a second look at who he really was in S5/S6, but then I feel the Revival just destroyed all of  that. Curious if you guys feel the same. 

And feel free to be as long winded as you like. I love reading it.

I very rarely talk/mention/think about the revival when doing these posts. I don't believe they reflect the characters we know and love. I'm not gonna talk about the musical number because... why? And now that I've said that, I think that Rory went back to Logan because she was afraid. Again, it wasn't because of a burning desire for him, but because she had nothing really to show for the last 10 years of her life.

Logan was not Logan. He was a mix of Dean-Season-5 and Logan-Season-5. S06 and S07 tried really hard to take immature, Life or Death Brigade Logan and turn him into an intelligent business man, with a respectable job, and a stable relationship. And the revival turned him into a sleazy Dean. Wait... that's redundant. They turned him into a Dean. A Dean with money. 

We never met that Odette woman, which worked towards making the affair supposedly understandable (?). We couldn't actually make the poor woman into a character we could relate to and therefore feel a bit of hate towards precious Rory, could we? I hate that ASP implied (or was it just me?) that Odette was a snotty French heiress who got what she deserved. Even though we don't know her. We know ASP, you hate French people... You couldn't even hire one to play Michel. [In case you didn't know, I'm French...]

Basically, that plot was useless, and creating Odette as a way to explain why Logan and Rory didn't find their way back to each other in those 10 years didn't work. Because they did. I think that was the only intention behind Odette. That Rory was still single and enjoying her 20s. Even though she's in her 30s.

 

 

Oh, and can we talk about Lorelai and Luke? Are we supposed to believe that they literally did nothing in those 10 years? Didn't get married, move, improve their business, have kids? Even though they talked about it in the show? All those plans of a big house with kids, plants, and a dog went berserk just to create "drama" in the revival. We didn't need to see Lorelai "do" Wild. That was not cool. Or Luke not understanding that you don't actually need to have sex with the surrogate...

Edited June 10, 2018 by marineg

[macstarli]

1 hour ago, Taryn74 said:

@marineg @macstarli I would love to hear both of your insights on Revival!Logan as compared to both S5/S6 Logan, and S7 Logan. I'm one who really came to love Logan in S7, and that made me take a second look at who he really was in S5/S6, but then I feel the Revival just destroyed all of  that. Curious if you guys feel the same. 

And feel free to be as long winded as you like. I love reading it.

Ouh, this is making me so exited! It's an interesting question and I haven't really got a good answer for it, but I'll try my best to put the thoughts I do have into something that's at least semi-coherent.

I think something that is quite clear is that in at least some ways Logan continued his growth. He seemed quite serious about his work, so clearly his newly discovered work ethic has stuck around. We're not really sure how he ended up working with Mitchum again, but I like Matt's interpretation that Logan grew to appreciate what he could get from working with his family and I'm sure he's good at it. And I like the idea that Logan has learned to rise above the mess with his family and not let that ruin a path that seems like a good fit for him. For the most part anyway. His conversation with Mitchum seemed cordial enough and in the way he talks about him with Rory it seems like he has found a way to make peace with who his father is and moved on from letting that rule his life without pretending that this somehow makes Mitchum a good person or a good father.

And he's still incredibly sweet and encouraging with Rory. He's her constant cheerleader, he's perfectly happy to be her sounding board at all hours of the night and to put all his resources at her disposal, should she feel like it, no strings attached. He's interested in her life and attentive and he never stops being inspired by who she is. Even when she feels like she's at her worst, he's still a little bit in awe of this amazing woman, that has been the love of his life for more than a decade at this point. 

He definitly feels a lot more settled than S5/S6 Logan and even than S7 Logan. S5/S6 Logan was doing a lot of running, trying to avoid something he at the time felt to be inevitable and in S7 he slowly started to come to terms with that and the end leaves him at a turning point, awaiting an exciting adventure. By the time the revival has come around, I think he's finished that process and has conquered the adventure. He's spent years working in this field, so he feels secure in that and he seems to feel secure in his life in general.

With the one huge exception. And here's the thing about Odette. I know nothing about her or Logan's relationship with her. Even above when I'm talking about Logan and his family and his work I'm already reaching and headcanoning, but I think we've got a little bit of solid ground to stand on, because we can infer some stuff from seeing him directly interact with Mitchum and his conversations with Rory. With Odette we certainly never see her and we don't really see Logan talk about her either, at least nothing comes to mind at the moment. So let's get the obvious and the only thing we actually see on screen out of the way. I hate that they make him a cheater. It doesn't really fit with either S5/S6 Logan or S7 Logan. He was a playboy, sure, but he was perfectly upfront about it, which is an entirely different thing from cheating. And I certainly can't ever picture the Logan who was so aware of himself and his relationship with Rory, who chose her over and over and over again, in a million little and big ways, put her in a position where she's his mistress. Not that Rory isn't responsible for her deciscion to sleep with someone who is in a relationship (while she's also in a relationship nonetheless), but I still can't see Logan being okay with that. So yeah, that feels like a huge regression. And I resent the hell out of it and I don't think the revival wanted to make it anything more than that, because if they wanted to they would have. 

But because the situation as presented in the revival doesn't make any sense to me, I think Logan to a very large extend is the person that we choose to see in him as. Because he seems to be at peace with his family and I have a very hard time reconciling that with the fact that he would let them run his love life, I can imagine that he and Odette are actually good friends. That they get along well and respect each other and are well aware that the person they are engaged to doesn't love them that way, but they both have their own reasons for going along with their family wishes. And if that's true and Odette knows about Rory (hey, maybe she's got her own true love somewhere out there) then I can kind of make it work as a continuation of Original Logan. It doesn't feel very Logan (in any season) not to go after what he wants with Rory, but I think in the revival there are enough indications that Rory shuts down everytime he trys to push for a little more that I can accept that maybe in the beginning he thought it would eventually naturally lead to more and eventually he resigned himself to the fact, that pushing Rory on their relationship would just make her run. I'd imagine that he has had other relationship between the end of S7 and meeting Rory again and he has come to terms with the fact, that he's not going to find what he had with Rory with anybody else, so he eventually gave up on loving someone else because he just never quite managed to move on all the from Rory, which isn't fair to anybody involved. It's not really the kind of story I wanted for him (I was either rooting for a happy ever after with Rory or that he found love and a fullfilling relationship with someone else, preferably someone who was a little more emotionally aware than Rory) but it sort of makes sense, I guess. It's really hard to tell, because we know nothing about his life between the OS and the revival or Rory and Logan's relationship pre-revival or how long it's been going on. Does it pre-date Odette?

Now if you don't like Logan, it's easy to look at the character and just say that he has ultimately proven himself to be the worst version of himself. He's a cheater, he's shallow and weak enough to consent to a family arranged engagement instead of going with his heart and he's unprincipled enough to not even follow through with that and instead keep Rory as his mistress on the side. His deep love for Rory doesn't seem to have been more of a kiddy pool after all or maybe it's just grown more shallow over the years. Either way, if you wanted to, you could make an argument, that if they had gotten married, there's no garantue that he wouldn't have cheated on her the same way he has on Odette. Granted I don't think any of that is true and while a lot of it seems to be implied in the revival, I don't think there's conclusive evidence to definitly prove it, but I don't have any evidence to disprove it either, other than saying it doesn't fit with how he's been presented in the OS. Because even S5/S6 Logan certainly wasn't weak when it came to his family. He had his head stuck in the sand when it came to his future in the business, sure, but it's not like he avoided pissing off his parents because he disliked the confrontation and he had absolutely no problem whatsoever standing up to them when it came to Rory. And then he came into his own during S7, realizing that he life he had been running from for such a long, long time was maybe not the worst thing afterall and he probably began to realize that he didn't need his family. That he was perfectly capable of making it out there on his own. And then he did exactly that. So it's not like he doesn't have a personal drive independent from what his father wants from him or like he shys away from telling them to shove off.

And during his entire relationship with Rory there isn't really a single thing to suggest that he is unprincipled or a cheater. Whether or not you consider the bridemaids-incident to be cheating, I think it's very clear that Logan honestly believed them to be broken up and that he would never have slept with those girls if he didn't believe that. And during their dance at Richard's and Emily's vow renewal he is very upfront with Rory. He knows who he is and he's not ashamed of it, but he's also not going to take advantage of the fact that Rory has a crush on him to sleep with her, dangling the possibility of something more infront of her. That doesn't really speak of someone who is unprincipled and used to taking the path of least resistance to get whatever he wants. 

And it is now way too late over here and I need to head to bed, so I think I'm just gonna leave this as is. I might have more to say tomorrow after work and hopefully if I do it will be a little more structured and less all over the place than this has been. And maybe I'll even get around to comparing OS and Revival-Logan in a meaningful way. But honestly, I have a lot of conflicting thoughts and emotions on that goddamn revival and other than resenting the hell out of ASP a lot of it depends on which angle I look at it from. If you want to read some more ramblings on that revival you can also check out my tumblr, although there isn't a lot on there.

Edited June 10, 2018 by macstarli
stupid typos...

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Ick. Long posts about my favorite GG people and its past midnight  boo! I hope it is a slow day at work tomorrow.

I will say this about the Revival. I am pretty confident that we are not to take either Odette or Paul literally. Paul was a walking joke and if that wasn't clear on screen, LG clarified that in one of her post-revival interviews. Odette was little more than a nothing. She gets too much credited when she is treated like an entity in her own right. At the end, ASP wanted Rory alone when she reached that full circle. It was a shitty and clumsy way do it but things like the joblessness and inability to be properly coupled with Logan were a means to an end. She couldn't be gainfully employed and in a stable relationship with she found herself pregnant.

 

I am still shocked at how badly the Palladinos bangled the storyline. They'd had that ending in mind for two decades. You would think ASP could come up with better reasoning of how Rory got to the point of "the last four words." Told a story that was slightly palatable and resembled the original Gilmore Girls. 

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

Quote

Rory was kind of using him like a sherpa, standing on his back, getting carried up, while he did all the work.

Funny. One of the most distinct events of their relationship was Rory hoisting him with her whole body to get into her car after a night out with his friends. Another was her running to his side when he was injured and staying there. Then subsequently dotting on him during his recuperation. There was also that time she woke up in the middle of the night to take him sandwich when he came home drunk. Or that time she threw him a surprise goin away party. They may not be grand but she provided him with solid support during their time together.

I've come to expect Rory to receive no credit for any positive things she does, but that quote is taking it a bit far. 

 

Quote

And once you've said that, you know that she had no real reason to go the Philadelphia to cheat on Logan with Jess. Okay, maybe she didn't go with that express intess intention, but she did try once she was there, and her boyfriend was

When it comes to something that paints her in a bad light however, credit is given and then some 

How come Logan who actually slept with multiple people is reasoned and given the benefit of the doubt, rightfully so but when it comes to Rory, the worst of intentions is applied to her motives? Couldn’t she have gone to Philly to support a friend? I hear from Jess shippers they are good friends. So a friend or a girlfriend out for revenge?

Could it be that she was caught of guard by Jess so didn’t shove him off the minute he kissed her? Unless you are going to accuse her of initiating the kiss - which would be false and returning it - also false?  That wouldn’t make her too terrible a person so those perceptions are ruled out, I guess 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[marineg]

2 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Funny. One of the most distinct events of their relationship was Rory hoisting him with her whole body to get into her car after a night out with his friends. Another was her running to his side when he was injured and staying there. Then subsequently dotting on him during his recuperation. There was also that time she woke up in the middle of the night to take him sandwich when he came home drunk. Or that time she threw him a surprise goin away party. They may not be grand but she provided him with solid support during their time together.

I've come to expect Rory to receive no credit for any positive things she does, but that quote is taking it a bit far. 

The sherpa analogy was put in to talk about their work to grow the relationship, taking it to the next level, time after time. Waking up in the middle of the night to make a sandwich for your boyfriend or dragging his body to a car isn't exactly making the relationship grow. I'm not saying she was a bad girlfriend. I'l saying she let Logan do all the legwork. Every time a step had to be taken, it was Logan who took it, and Rory went along for the ride.

2 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

When it comes to something that paints her in a bad light however, credit is given and then some 

How come Logan who actually slept with multiple people is reasoned and given the benefit of the doubt, rightfully so but when it comes to Rory, the worst of intentions is applied to her motives? Couldn’t she have gone to Philly to support a friend? I hear from Jess shippers they are good friends. So a friend or a girlfriend out for revenge?

Could it be that she was caught of guard by Jess so didn’t shove him off the minute he kissed her? Unless you are going to accuse her of initiating the kiss - which would be false and returning it - also false?  That wouldn’t make her too terrible a person so those perceptions are ruled out, I guess 

Again, you are comparing to things that can't be compared. I'm not going out of my way to paint Rory in a bad light. But we're here to talk about certain aspects. It you want to to write a long post about Rory's positive aspects, I will. But that's not what I am diode right now. We are talking about a specific situation. Logan was broken up. He can sleep with who he wants. Rory took him back, knowing all this. Rory wasn't single. And if you read my quote you used in your post you will see that I said: "And once you've said that, you know that she had no real reason to go the Philadelphia to cheat on Logan with Jess. Okay, maybe she didn't go with that express intention, but she did try once she was there, and her boyfriend was halfway around the world." She did.

Look at the clip. Rory is sitting in an empty room. Everyone has left. They are alone. Jess picks up a chair and sit right next to her, facing her. The chairs are so close they practically touch. Rory turns around to face him. They are so close, their knees are touching. As they talk, Jess leans in a bit. Their faces are about 12 inches apart. He asks if she fixed everything (in his mind, Logan) and she says yes (in her mind, Yale). He leans forward a bit more. They are only separated by a few inches, approximately 6. They look in each other's eyes for 5 seconds. Jess slowly leans in to kiss her. Rory tilts her head to kiss him. They kiss for 6 seconds before Rory pulls back. Then, they have this exchange.

RORY: I'm sorry.
JESS: About what?
RORY: Uh, about coming here like this. I just got the flier, and I don't know. I just wanted to see your place, but then this... it's not fair to you. I'm such a jerk.
JESS: I don't know what you're talking about.
RORY: And I couldn't even cheat on him the way he cheated on me.
JESS: Who? Who cheated on y…that guy? [Sighs] You're still with him.
RORY: Yeah.
JESS: I thought everything was fixed.
RORY: Everything but him.
JESS: I hate this.
RORY: You should. I'm sorry.
JESS: You came here alone, to Philadelphia.
RORY: He was out of town.
JESS: I don't deserve this, Rory.
RORY: No, you don't. You don't deserve it. I just... I'm in love with him. Despite all the bad he's done, I can't help it. I'm in love with him.

She didn't start the kiss. Yes. But Jess kept getting closer and closer, looking at her in the eyes with his I-Love-Rory look. She knew it was coming. She also knew that Logan was jealous of Jess, and put herself in a situation where she was alone in a room with him loving her, looking at her tenderly for a while before kissing her. Now, I'm not saying it's her fault or that she was "asking for it" (hate those words...). I'm saying that she knew what she was doing going to see Jess, she knew what Jess was doing, waiting for everyone to leave, sitting close to her, leaning in. She had a thousand opportunities to step back and say, "Look Jess, I love you, you're my friend, but I'm in a relationship." She didn't. And she knows that she has a part of blame to carry here. She apologises, she says she is a jerk, that she can't cheat on Logan as he cheated on her (he didn't). She takes the blame here. Yes, Jess initiated the kiss, but Rory is a smart girl. She knew what she was doing and what Jess was doing. And she did it anyway. She kissed him back. She saw him leaning in to kiss her and she tilted her head. She wasn't caught off guard. They kissed for 6 seconds. That may not sound like a lot in the grand scheme of things, but for a kiss, that's not just a peck.

 

And you seem to think that I'm an anti-feminist who hates Rory. I'm not. I think that she is strong and independent, smart, resourceful, and doesn't really need anyone to make something of herself. She knows how to carry herself, how to be kind, just and fair, how to love. I'm not slut-shaming her. She can have sex with whom she wants, and kiss whom she wants. But she can't complain and blame others for her actions. She has to look at the facts, that Logan was broken up. She says she forgives him but doesn't. She says she is moving on, but tries to hook up with her ex. You can't be hurt by someone's actions, resent them for it, and do the same thing a day later. Like I said, she has a lot of qualities, but when it comes to her boyfriends, it seems like she feels she is due something, like she is owed a part of them. Dean gets married, but she feels like he is still hers. Jess tries to move on, but still goes to see him and lets him kiss her. Logan is engaged, but still has an affair with him. No matter the circumstances, she feels like she can go back to an ex at any point in her life, and at any point in their life, whether they are in a relationship or not. She can't blame Logan for trying to get over her by sleeping with a couple of girls, when she herself has had an affair with a married man, and tries to cheat on Logan with her ex. You can't have your cake and eat it too. You can set you own set of morals/behaviour/beliefs for yourself, but it has to apply to others too. Logan told her at E&R's wedding that he knew who he was, that he was a playboy and enjoyed casual sex. He set his own morals. You can agree or disagree, but he owns them. He doesn't condemn his friends for doing the same thing. Rory proved that she wasn't above sleeping with married men and going back to her exes time and time again. Why does she condemn Logan?

[Deputy Deputy CoS]

I made an observation about how she is judged, I didn't call you a bad feminist.

As to Logan doing all the leg work in the relationship, she was the one who initiated a relationship with him to begin with. The relationship didn't just happen to her.  She played a role in its growth and decline.

On this, we are going to have to agree to disagree. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by Deputy Deputy CoS

[macstarli]

16 hours ago, marineg said:

I get that. But apart from her parents and grandparents, it was a whole bunch of people we didn't know. There was no Sookie or Jackson or Michel or Lane or Zach or Paris or Doyle (which is weird since its her graduation party.) There wasn't most of the people she loved and who loved her. And same, you say he wanted to make a public acknowledgement that he had changed, that he wasn't the playboy anymore, and that he was committed to her. But like I said, most the people there don't know him. That kind of "proof" should have been done in front of his family. Wouldn't that weight more? To show his dad that he wasn't the same screwed-up kid that crashed a yacht? To show his mother and grandfather that Rory was the woman for him and that he was dedicated to making their relationship work? Yes, it would mean a lot to the Gilmores to know that he has changed and would care for their daughter/grand-daughter. But in terms of proving he is mature and responsible in a way he wasn't prior to meeting Rory, that would be better demonstrated in front of the Huntzbergers.

Had he wanted to do a public proposal like that, to prove to both families the strength of their relationship and the love their share, he could have planned a party himself, with only the people who really matter to them. That's just a thought.

And at no point did I say, that he made a good choice. I'm saying that I can try and understand what he was thinking and that I think he got caught up in the idea and the momentum of all of it and as a result that the graduation party, already set up and sorted in a probably fairly busy time for Rory, felt like a good idea. He was excited and he wanted to share that excitment. I think that if he had ever stopped long enough to actually plan something else, he wouldn't have decided to do it infront of anyone, but that's my entire point. He didn't plan something elaborate completely by himself, he decided he wanted to propose and looked at the graduation party and somehow thought that would be a good place to do it. I'm not saying he was right, I'm saying I can understand how that might have happened.

16 hours ago, marineg said:

She never really pursued anyone. Yes, she did have the wedding thing with Logan but let's be honest, he was hooked the moment she put on the gorilla mask.

I think that completely dismissing what happend at the wedding is doing both Rory and her relationship with Logan a disservice and selling them short. Yes, he was already interested in her before that, but she still decided to take ownership of her attraction to him and confront the situation, which is even more remarkable for the fact that it happens so rarely for her. It's on one my favorite scenes for the two of them precisely because her deciding to make a push for it with Logan and not let his intial flippant reaction throw he must have been difficult for her, because as you pointed it out it's not really a situation she was used to. She was risking being completely wrong and getting rejected, but she decided that it was worth it for the chance that he might not. She doesn't bow out when Logan explains why he hasn't asked her out or anything like that and if I remember correctly (currently at work during break, so I can't check) she's the one who leads them of the dance floor to start something right there at the vow renewal. I do think we should give her credit for being a very active instigator her.

16 hours ago, marineg said:

This brings me to something I hate about the show. For every guy (her age), the second they set their eyes on Rory, they fall in love with her, and in a possessive way.

I do agree with you that the way guys keep falling in love with and are then apparently unable to ever move on from her is a bit much and part of the reason, that I tend to have issues with Rory. If I felt like the show was dealing with her and her flaws in a more real way, it would be a lot easier for me to give her the benefit of the doubt and be sympathetic, but instead a lot of the times my hackles go up and I instinctively side against her.

We're going to disagree though on how much Rory loves or doesn't love Logan, though. For all that I resent a lot of how she handled being in a relationship with him, I don't really doubt that he's the one she wants and that that's why they are where they are in the revival. That's why he's the person she calls when she needs someone to talk to and why it hurts as deeply as it does when things crash down between them. I don't think it was just being afraid similar to her relationship with Dean in the beginning of Season 5. With Dean she went back to recapture something that made her feel safe, but clearly wasn't there anymore. I do think that she feels safe with Logan and that he makes her feel better when a lot of things in her life are going wrong, but ideally that's what being in a healthy relationship is like and unlikely her relationship with Dean her and Logan work well together and love each other even without the nostalgia factor of their previous relationship.

5 hours ago, Deputy Deputy CoS said:

Funny. One of the most distinct events of their relationship was Rory hoisting him with her whole body to get into her car after a night out with his friends. Another was her running to his side when he was injured and staying there. Then subsequently dotting on him during his recuperation. There was also that time she woke up in the middle of the night to take him sandwich when he came home drunk. Or that time she threw him a surprise goin away party. They may not be grand but she provided him with solid support during their time together.

I've come to expect Rory to receive no credit for any positive things she does, but that quote is taking it a bit far. 

 

This wasn't directed at me and I think @marineg did a pretty good job of explaining the things you quoted, but I still feel the need to respond, because I freely admit that I have a lot of issues with Rory for a variety of reasons and that I probably sell her short on occasion. Of course there have been a lot of times where she was a good girlfriend, if they weren't I'd have left this ship a long time ago. But to me it always feels like we got so much of her POV in the show and like the show just brushed so many of her less good moments under the rug, that it's hard for me to let those things go. It's not that I couldn't try and understand where she comes from, but because there are plenty of moments where she just gets a pass for her behaviour, not seeming to learn anything from it or even feel particularly bad about it that I don't feel inclined to bother to sympathize with her, especially if it's a situation where Rory herself seems to be completely unwilling to consider anything but her own feelings and version of events.

All of that being said, I'm really interested in hearing what you think of Rory and her relationship with Logan and maybe I'll change my mind on a couple of things.

[marineg]

6 hours ago, macstarli said:

And at no point did I say, that he made a good choice. I'm saying that I can try and understand what he was thinking and that I think he got caught up in the idea and the momentum of all of it and as a result that the graduation party, already set up and sorted in a probably fairly busy time for Rory, felt like a good idea. He was excited and he wanted to share that excitment. I think that if he had ever stopped long enough to actually plan something else, he wouldn't have decided to do it infront of anyone, but that's my entire point. He didn't plan something elaborate completely by himself, he decided he wanted to propose and looked at the graduation party and somehow thought that would be a good place to do it. I'm not saying he was right, I'm saying I can understand how that might have happened.

I get your point and I agree with you. I was trying to jump off of that, saying that if indeed a public proposal was what he wanted, there were better ways to do it. Seeing as the proposal was not spontaneous, but planned as he went to see Lorelai, got a ring, and waited for a while before proposing, there were options.

 

6 hours ago, macstarli said:

I think that completely dismissing what happend at the wedding is doing both Rory and her relationship with Logan a disservice and selling them short. Yes, he was already interested in her before that, but she still decided to take ownership of her attraction to him and confront the situation, which is even more remarkable for the fact that it happens so rarely for her. It's on one my favorite scenes for the two of them precisely because her deciding to make a push for it with Logan and not let his intial flippant reaction throw he must have been difficult for her, because as you pointed it out it's not really a situation she was used to. She was risking being completely wrong and getting rejected, but she decided that it was worth it for the chance that he might not. She doesn't bow out when Logan explains why he hasn't asked her out or anything like that and if I remember correctly (currently at work during break, so I can't check) she's the one who leads them of the dance floor to start something right there at the vow renewal. I do think we should give her credit for being a very active instigator her.

I do think that she instigated the open relationship at the wedding. And I love that moment too. She's vulnerable, takes charge, isn't afraid to say what she wants, and that's rare, not only for Rory, but for a woman on TV at the time, especially a 19yo, to come out and say it like that. What I meant, and it's true it's at a different degree for the Logan-Rory relationship, is that for every relationship she has with boyfriends, they are the ones picking her. Yes, she loves them as much as she can, again, especially Logan. But they pick her. After that, I'm not putting in question her implication in the relationship, just the fact that there is no instance when she sees a cute guy who seems disinterested, and after a while "caves" and is seduced by her smarts and quirkiness. Or even just a moment where there is that mutual "falling in love" moment (not necessarily love) where they both meet/see each other and like each other. It's always the guy likes her, then he pursues her, then she likes him back. What she does after isn't into question. Just how she falls for them.

And I could be the devil's advocate here and say that the wedding scene when she tells him that she likes him and that she wants to be with him, and he says he only has casual sex, she isn't shocked. She knew this going into the conversation. She wants him. That's 100% fine, again no judgment here. But she was going in for a fling. And when she started to have feelings, she wanted to break it off. Maybe to protect herself from further hurt, maybe to protect Logan from becoming who he wasn't. But she tried to break it off. And Logan instigated the monogamous relationship. Out of nowhere. She didn't suggest it, she was very frank with him saying it wasn't him and casual sex wasn't her and that they should be friends. But he didn't want to let her go. She was willing to. He was willing to change his whole belief system, his way of life, to be with her. She wasn't. Again, no judgment on that part. I think she was right to cut it short seeing as she was getting hurt. But once again, he was the one "pursuing" her (if we can use that term when they were already having sex) and convincing her to be in a monogamous relationship.

 

6 hours ago, macstarli said:

We're going to disagree though on how much Rory loves or doesn't love Logan, though. For all that I resent a lot of how she handled being in a relationship with him, I don't really doubt that he's the one she wants and that that's why they are where they are in the revival. That's why he's the person she calls when she needs someone to talk to and why it hurts as deeply as it does when things crash down between them. I don't think it was just being afraid similar to her relationship with Dean in the beginning of Season 5. With Dean she went back to recapture something that made her feel safe, but clearly wasn't there anymore. I do think that she feels safe with Logan and that he makes her feel better when a lot of things in her life are going wrong, but ideally that's what being in a healthy relationship is like and unlikely her relationship with Dean her and Logan work well together and love each other even without the nostalgia factor of their previous relationship.

God knows I believe she loved him. As you said, the revival is proof. And again, I'm not putting that into question. I'm just saying that she loved him and tried to make him happy with the tool she had. The same tools she had at the beginning of the relationship. They never truly evolved. We can see all the efforts Logan are putting in and we can note almost from one episode to the next the changes he is going through, and the efforts he makes. It's not really the case with Rory. Yes, she love him as much as she could. But maybe that wasn't enough, as we saw with the proposal. She clearly didn't try hard enough to leave her neck of the woods, or to offer a solution that would please them both. She looked at her life at that certain point and made a decision. She didn't try to imagine a solution for their future.

 

6 hours ago, macstarli said:

This wasn't directed at me and I think @marineg did a pretty good job of explaining the things you quoted, but I still feel the need to respond, because I freely admit that I have a lot of issues with Rory for a variety of reasons and that I probably sell her short on occasion. Of course there have been a lot of times where she was a good girlfriend, if they weren't I'd have left this ship a long time ago. But to me it always feels like we got so much of her POV in the show and like the show just brushed so many of her less good moments under the rug, that it's hard for me to let those things go. It's not that I couldn't try and understand where she comes from, but because there are plenty of moments where she just gets a pass for her behaviour, not seeming to learn anything from it or even feel particularly bad about it that I don't feel inclined to bother to sympathize with her, especially if it's a situation where Rory herself seems to be completely unwilling to consider anything but her own feelings and version of events.

Yes. I think that that's the aspect of the show that pains me the most. They create these beautiful, strong characters, with very clear flaws. But they never address them, or try to have them work on it, or anything. Or make them feel bad for their mistakes.

Lorelai sleeps with Chris not even a day after breaking off her engagement with Luke, and she is never remorseful. And they follow it by a serious relationship and a marriage. Yes they come back to break up the marriage by saying she never got over Luke. But that's not the same thing. It's a consequence of her actions, not remorse or regret for hurting a man she deeply loved.

At one point, Rory writes an article about a launch party thrown by Logan for one of his business ventures. An important event for Logan who is only a few months into his career. And she is awful about it, titling the article "Let Them Drink Cosmos" and writing things like "these overprivileged sons and daughters of somebodies who fail to grasp how out of touch they seem to those of us who don't have an errant domestic employee or a construction problem on beef island" or "Who can no more imagine a world without trust funds than a world without water -- imported and bubbly, of course."  And then she tries to explain it by saying "the point I was trying to make was that people use connections to get ahead" like it's a bad thing. Her entire life is based on connections. Logan is right when he says "Wake up Rory whether you like it or not, you're one of us. You went to prep school. You go to Yale. Your grandparents are building a whole damn astronomy building in your name." She paid Chilton and Yale through her grandparents, her grandfather had her meet with the Dean of Admissions at Yale, got her a letter of recommendation from the Dean for her post-grad, he had her meet renowned professors, she got to visit the whole of Europe twice in all-expenses-paid vacations, her boyfriend introduced her to his father who gave her her first internship, to the blog guy who gave her her first job(at that specific party might I say), took her on romantic travels (like London, NY, and almost Asia) etc. It is highly hypocritical to write an article about rich people getting ahead through connections for a site whose owner you met at said party. But the next scene between them is Logan, apologising for saying that she was living rent-free, that he was upset, and that the article wasn't that awful. Rory however only explains that what the article was exuding (ie that they were a bunch or privileged asses) wasn't what she intended to write, that she didn't think of how it could hurt him, and that she is supportive of him. But she doesn't actually say that she doesn't mean it. That she doesn't think she is the poor kid in the middle of a sea of privileged kids. That she doesn't think that all of Logan's friends/coworker/potential investor are assholes. She just apologises for not realising it could hurt him. Not the same thing.

So basically I am rambling on to say you are right. I wish there was more to show that the character changed throughout the series, and in more ways than they are more mature and smarter. I would have wanted to see Rory realise that she was indeed privileged, having a big house, a mother with her own business, a whole town worshipping at her feet, and grandparents (and later father) willing to pay for any of her dreams. And I would have liked to see Lorelai realise that ever since she had a kid, her emotional intelligence when it came to her romantic relationships was always that of a 16 yo, afraid that her boyfriend would leave her. That abandoning her parents and running away, not allowing them to be a true part of her kid's live, especially since she had an absentee father, was wrong. She never truly apologised to her parents; she explained her decision but never truly saw how hurt by that they were, or at least did nothing about it. She still went on comparing her mother to Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler. 

Edited June 11, 2018 by marineg

[macstarli]

1 hour ago, marineg said:

I get your point and I agree with you. I was trying to jump off of that, saying that if indeed a public proposal was what he wanted, there were better ways to do it. Seeing as the proposal was not spontaneous, but planned as he went to see Lorelai, got a ring, and waited for a while before proposing, there were options.

He definitly planned it in the way that he knew that that's what he was gonna do and he probably put a lot of time into figuring out just what to say, but I don't think that's quite the same thing as completely stopping and planning the proposal from the ground up. He kind of pickybacked onto already existing plans. And yes, I am completely aware that I am debating semantics that probably don't make any sense outside my own head.

 

1 hour ago, marineg said:

And I could be the devil's advocate here and say that even the wedding scene when she tells him that she likes him and that she wants to be with him, and he says he only has casual sex, she isn't shocked. She knew this going into the conversation. She wants him. That's 100% fine, again no judgment here. But she was going in for a fling. And when she started to have feelings, she wanted to break it off.

Well, since you're playingdevil's advocate, I'm gonna go ahead and present a different reading of the situation. I think that Rory definitly felt ready for a no-strings relationship and especially after the mess with Dean maybe even convinced herself that it was a really good idea to go for something more casual, but I don't think that negates the fact that she was crushing on Logan hard. That's on display pretty heavily when they meet at the pub to help him with his article and she doesn't just want to go that party he's going to, because it would be great to meet those people, but because she wants him to pick her. She wants him to want to bring her along and spent time with her, in the same way that she wants to spent time with him. It's more than just wanting him in general and while she accepts that it's going to be a fling and wants to try and see what that's like, I think entirely left to her own devices, it probably wouldn't have been how she would have chosen to proceed. Maybe more something like dating just before it becomes a relationship. You're spending a lot of time together, you're not seeing other people, but it doesn't quite have a lable just yet. And I think if she had been entirely honest with herself she would have admitted that she could totally see that transitioning into an actual relationship, given some time. But Logan makes it clear that it's not what he wants and it's not something he can give her and she thinks that it's something that she wants to try, because she's fascinated by him and wants to see what it would be like. And so I don't think she wanted to break it off, because she started having feelings, she wanted to break it off, because she could no longer ignore those feelings. That's a pretty important distinction. She's feeling hurt and probably hung over and rejected and she already knows that Logan's not interested in anything more than what they're doing right now, because not only did he tell her that, he also seemed to be perfectly okay not talking with for days on end. And she wants to stop feeling like that girl sobbing on the bathroom floor, so the only option is to break it off. 

 

1 hour ago, marineg said:

But he didn't want to let her go. She was willing to.

I don't think that's quite a fair assessment. I don't think it's so much that she was willing to let him go as much as she was entirely certain that he wasn't interested in her that way and so there was no point in holding on. She can't make him want to be her boyfriend and considering how crappy and raw she must be feeling at that particular moment she probably remembers very few reason that he would want to. And I actually think that's a really good and healthy decision. She can't control Logan, she can only control herself and thus the best thing she can do is to remove herself from a situation that is currently causing her pain. And the reason it's causing her pain is that she does want to be with him, she just thinks she can't have that.

1 hour ago, marineg said:

Yes, she love him as much as she could. But maybe that wasn't enough, as we saw with the proposal.

I think we're gonna be talking in circles with this one, because we're fairly close to agreeing and I think we're just drawing different conclusions from it. Yeah, there are a lot of things Rory needed to learn with regards to how to love and how to be in a relationship and probably just how to deal with life and emotions in general and I wish to god she had, if for no other reason than that I want nothing but good things for Logan and he very clearly wants her. And I think they could be so amazing together, if Rory ever got around to unlearning some of the bad relationship habits she picked up from her mom. And I think there are some indications along the way that Rory is deeply in love with him. There's the fact that she's the first one to say in love you (so she did initiate atleast one milestone) and she handles the aftermath in a really good and healthy way and then there's the Vinjard where she tells Lorelai that these could be the ones. So clearly she has thought about their future and wants that future, she just didn't expect it to come around quite so soon. I don't that means she doesn't love him enough, it just means that sometimes life doesn't work out the way we want it to. Logan was ready before she was, yes, but she still wanted all the things he did, just a little bit later. Granted, she did a crappy job of communciating that during her answer to his proposal and I really don't have an answer for that. 

 

2 hours ago, marineg said:

I would have wanted to see Rory realise that she was indeed privileged, having a big house, a mother with her own business, a whole town worshipping at her feet, and grandparents (and later father) willing to pay for any of her dreams. And I would have liked to see Lorelai realise that ever since she had a kid, her emotional intelligence when it came to her relationship was always that of a 16 yo, afraid that her boyfriend would leave her.

This is right here is why I could never hate Season 7 the way some people do, because I think that season is the closest we get to those things. It's by no means perfect, but I remember early on there is an episode where Lorelai realizes that being guided by her parent's disapproval is still being guided by her parents and that maybe not everything her parents stand for is completely awful. It's not much, but I do appreciate the pieces that we get. And after so long of being born into money and high society meaning you're a horrible, shallow person hearing Logan shout "Yes, I am like those people. I'm a rich trustfund kid and I'm not ashamed of it" (not a direct quote) feels hugely satisfying. 

[Taryn74]

26 minutes ago, macstarli said:

This is right here is why I could never hate Season 7 the way some people do, because I think that season is the closest we get to those things. It's by no means perfect, but I remember early on there is an episode where Lorelai realizes that being guided by her parent's disapproval is still being guided by her parents and that maybe not everything her parents stand for is completely awful. It's not much, but I do appreciate the pieces that we get. And after so long of being born into money and high society meaning you're a horrible, shallow person hearing Logan shout "Yes, I am like those people. I'm a rich trustfund kid and I'm not ashamed of it" (not a direct quote) feels hugely satisfying.

Yes, yes, and more yes!  Money IS just a tool, it's how you use it that defines it as "good" or "bad" and it really was nice at the end of it all to see at least a couple of characters (Logan, and I would go so far as to argue Mitchum) acknowledge that.

I don't hate S7 at all.  In fact, I rank it way above S6 and above parts of S5 even.

[marineg]

3 hours ago, macstarli said:

I don't think that's quite a fair assessment. I don't think it's so much that she was willing to let him go as much as she was entirely certain that he wasn't interested in her that way and so there was no point in holding on. She can't make him want to be her boyfriend and considering how crappy and raw she must be feeling at that particular moment she probably remembers very few reason that he would want to. And I actually think that's a really good and healthy decision. She can't control Logan, she can only control herself and thus the best thing she can do is to remove herself from a situation that is currently causing her pain. And the reason it's causing her pain is that she does want to be with him, she just thinks she can't have that.

Yes. Of course, and that's what I'm trying to say, poorly. She was willing to let him go in order to not be hurt, and so he wouldn't be hurt, but making a decision for him he wasn't ready to make.

 

3 hours ago, macstarli said:

I think we're gonna be talking in circles with this one, because we're fairly close to agreeing and I think we're just drawing different conclusions from it. Yeah, there are a lot of things Rory needed to learn with regards to how to love and how to be in a relationship and probably just how to deal with life and emotions in general and I wish to god she had, if for no other reason than that I want nothing but good things for Logan and he very clearly wants her. And I think they could be so amazing together, if Rory ever got around to unlearning some of the bad relationship habits she picked up from her mom. And I think there are some indications along the way that Rory is deeply in love with him. There's the fact that she's the first one to say in love you (so she did initiate atleast one milestone) and she handles the aftermath in a really good and healthy way and then there's the Vinjard where she tells Lorelai that these could be the ones. So clearly she has thought about their future and wants that future, she just didn't expect it to come around quite so soon. I don't that means she doesn't love him enough, it just means that sometimes life doesn't work out the way we want it to. Logan was ready before she was, yes, but she still wanted all the things he did, just a little bit later. Granted, she did a crappy job of communciating that during her answer to his proposal and I really don't have an answer for that. 

[Thanks for reminding me of the I love Yous. I forgot about that! I thought she dealt with it in a very mature way too.]

And I didn't mean to say that she didn't love him enough. I think that my wording was awkward. What I meant is that she loved him with everything she had. But is still wasn't enough to make the relationship work right there and then. She may have wanted a future with him, but it didn't seem to coincide with what she wanted for herself

and her career, at that specific moment. But still, she didn't try and soften the blow of the proposal refusal with an alternative plan, but rather offered the exact opposite of what Logan wanted: a long distance relationship. That's got to hurt for Logan....

3 hours ago, macstarli said:

This is right here is why I could never hate Season 7 the way some people do, because I think that season is the closest we get to those things. It's by no means perfect, but I remember early on there is an episode where Lorelai realizes that being guided by her parent's disapproval is still being guided by her parents and that maybe not everything her parents stand for is completely awful. It's not much, but I do appreciate the pieces that we get. And after so long of being born into money and high society meaning you're a horrible, shallow person hearing Logan shout "Yes, I am like those people. I'm a rich trustfund kid and I'm not ashamed of it" (not a direct quote) feels hugely satisfying. 

I absolutely love that Logan was always very sure of himself. For the casual sex, for the way he was raised, for his future, for the fact that he came from money. He never apologised for anything he ever was. Rory could have learned from that. But that's Lorelai's fault. Rory was very comfortable in her grandparents' world, but Lorelai's rejection of it made her feel like it wasn't something she was allowed to want. And Logan came from a similar background as Lorelai and went a different direction. He basked in it. I guess it was too late for some of that to rub off on Rory.

And I remember the episode you mention where Lorelai realises her parent's influence in her life.  But I didn't get the feeling that she drew any positive conclusions from it. She said that she realised that her whole life she tried to do what they didn't want her to do, so now she was doing what she didn't want them to not want. If that makes sense. So she was still basing her life comparatively to them. Her mother liked her hair up so she always wore it down; then she tried it down and her mother liked it and it pissed her off. Same with the pop tarts. She loved them, but because they hated them, she questions if she loved them for the right reasons. She doesn't trust her own likes and decisions enough not to compare them to what her parents wanted for her.

[macstarli]

11 hours ago, marineg said:

Yes. Of course, and that's what I'm trying to say, poorly. She was willing to let him go in order to not be hurt, and so he wouldn't be hurt, but making a decision for him he wasn't ready to make.

I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that when Rory broke off the no strings agreement she was also trying to protect Logan? Because I don't think that was on her mind at all. She didn't think he was emotionally attached to her the way she was to him, so ending their agreement shouldn't effect him all that much. Sure, he enjoyed their time together and if she didn't end it would be happy to continue as they were, but it's all shallow enough as far as she's concerned that I don't think that she gave much thought to what ending it would mean to him. And is she making a decision for him that he isn't ready for? Or is she not making a decision for him, because she knows he's not ready? And what decision do you mean? Breaking things off? Because I don't really think it matters whether or not he was ready for that decision if she was done with things and she clearly was. Break-ups are pretty unilateral deciscions. If one person is out, there isn't much of a relationship left.

 

12 hours ago, marineg said:

He never apologised for anything he ever was. Rory could have learned from that. But that's Lorelai's fault. Rory was very comfortable in her grandparents' world, but Lorelai's rejection of it made her feel like it wasn't something she was allowed to want.

I think that's at the root of a lot of Rory's problems. She was told very early on exactly who she was going to be and as a result she feels incredibly guilty every time she wants something that doesn't fit that picture. I actually think it's really sad that GG seemed to loose quite a bit of nuance after Season 1, because there is a lovely conversation after Rory got hit by that deer, where Lorelai talks about the fact that Harvard might be more her thing than Rory's and that she doesn't want her to feel pressured into it or something along those lines. I think the show lost some of it's awareness of some fairly complex issues in later years. Which is why I so appreciate that episode in S7 where Lorelai realizes she's still being guided by her parents and so decides to try some of the things her parents like. No, sadly it's not dealt with in any long term kind of way, but I like what the episode portrayed. Of course she's utterly confused about her own likes and dislikes, because she just came to the realization that she had been doing things for a very long time based on a faulty premise. It's gonna take some time to deal with that and unravel her own genuine opinion from the emotional reaction she immediatly has to everything concering her parents. And I like that it involves trying out things she used to deliberatly not do to try and see if she might like them after all, because how else would she figure out what her own opinion is? I wish it had been dealt with more consistenly, but I just like that it was being voiced at all.

I'm also really, really interested in the way Logan and Lorelai compare and I think it's fascinating how much she held his family against him considering how she felt about her own parents. One of my favorite moments is at the Vinyard after his dad showed up when they look at each other and she says "no one understands letting family down better than I do" (not a direct quote). On the other hand these little moments that seem to grasp at some of the deeper issues are all the way more frustrating, because there's usually very little follow up. But we're already pretty off-topic, so I'm gonna stop here.

[marineg]

7 hours ago, macstarli said:

I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say here. Are you saying that when Rory broke off the no strings agreement she was also trying to protect Logan? Because I don't think that was on her mind at all. She didn't think he was emotionally attached to her the way she was to him, so ending their agreement shouldn't effect him all that much. Sure, he enjoyed their time together and if she didn't end it would be happy to continue as they were, but it's all shallow enough as far as she's concerned that I don't think that she gave much thought to what ending it would mean to him. And is she making a decision for him that he isn't ready for? Or is she not making a decision for him, because she knows he's not ready? And what decision do you mean? Breaking things off? Because I don't really think it matters whether or not he was ready for that decision if she was done with things and she clearly was. Break-ups are pretty unilateral deciscions. If one person is out, there isn't much of a relationship left.

Okay. I'll answer this step by step. I do recognise that they are a few confusing typos (damn autocorrect...)

I think Rory broke of the no stings agreement because she knew she would get hurt, and maybe also because she thought that, if she were to convince Logan to be monogamous, he would be miserable. Therefore, she broke it off to protect herself and him.  

I believe Rory knew he was attached to her to some degree because of the Robert debacle. He was jealous of Robert being on Rory's arm, and maybe having sex with her that night (?) and was willing to ditch his own date, with whom he could also have sex with, to be with Rory. If there were no feelings, he wouldn't care. But he did, and Rory knew he did.

The decision she thought he wasn't ready to make was to be monogamous. From her point of view, he wasn't going ready to make the jump, and she didn't want to force him. Of course, we know he was, and he did. But for her, at that point, it wasn't something he was willing to do. 

7 hours ago, macstarli said:

I think that's at the root of a lot of Rory's problems. She was told very early on exactly who she was going to be and as a result she feels incredibly guilty every time she wants something that doesn't fit that picture. I actually think it's really sad that GG seemed to loose quite a bit of nuance after Season 1, because there is a lovely conversation after Rory got hit by that deer, where Lorelai talks about the fact that Harvard might be more her thing than Rory's and that she doesn't want her to feel pressured into it or something along those lines. I think the show lost some of it's awareness of some fairly complex issues in later years. Which is why I so appreciate that episode in S7 where Lorelai realizes she's still being guided by her parents and so decides to try some of the things her parents like. No, sadly it's not dealt with in any long term kind of way, but I like what the episode portrayed. Of course she's utterly confused about her own likes and dislikes, because she just came to the realization that she had been doing things for a very long time based on a faulty premise. It's gonna take some time to deal with that and unravel her own genuine opinion from the emotional reaction she immediatly has to everything concering her parents. And I like that it involves trying out things she used to deliberatly not do to try and see if she might like them after all, because how else would she figure out what her own opinion is? I wish it had been dealt with more consistenly, but I just like that it was being voiced at all.

I'm also really, really interested in the way Logan and Lorelai compare and I think it's fascinating how much she held his family against him considering how she felt about her own parents. One of my favorite moments is at the Vinyard after his dad showed up when they look at each other and she says "no one understands letting family down better than I do" (not a direct quote). On the other hand these little moments that seem to grasp at some of the deeper issues are all the way more frustrating, because there's usually very little follow up. But we're already pretty off-topic, so I'm gonna stop here.

There really was potential to make the show absolutely amazing. Following up on ideas introduced if a big part of it. That episode of Lorelai's was good, I just think that not only did they not make a really big deal out of it in that episode and only used it to make a couple jokes, but they also didn't exploit the idea in other episodes. There are no real character arc in the show, no real surprises in terms of personality or changes. They pretty much end up were you expect them to end up, and it's not very far from where they started.

[andromeda331]

10 hours ago, marineg said:

Okay. I'll answer this step by step. I do recognise that they are a few confusing typos (damn autocorrect...)

I think Rory broke of the no stings agreement because she knew she would get hurt, and maybe also because she thought that, if she were to convince Logan to be monogamous, he would be miserable. Therefore, she broke it off to protect herself and him.  

I believe Rory knew he was attached to her to some degree because of the Robert debacle. He was jealous of Robert being on Rory's arm, and maybe having sex with her that night (?) and was willing to ditch his own date, with whom he could also have sex with, to be with Rory. If there were no feelings, he wouldn't care. But he did, and Rory knew he did.

The decision she thought he wasn't ready to make was to be monogamous. From her point of view, he wasn't going ready to make the jump, and she didn't want to force him. Of course, we know he was, and he did. But for her, at that point, it wasn't something he was willing to do. 

I agree. Rory tried the no strings agreement because she was interest in Logan. She wanted to be with him and that was the only way. So she tried it but didn't really like it. She probably did hope he would end up just dating her. She got hopeful with his behavior with Robert. But afterwards it didn't really change things. They were still no strings. She went awhile without hearing from him which ended with her crying in the bathroom after drinking too much of Miss Patty's punch. The next day she decided to break it off. It wasn't working for her. She went to go tell him and didn't expect him to counter with being monogamous.  

[stan4]

On 10/22/2017 at 10:59 PM, JustaPerson said:

I don't know if I feel quite this strongly (or negatively) about Rory and Logan together haha. I weirdly always liked Logan more than Rory. 

Why is that weird? Rory sucks.

[marineg]

I was rewatching the Logan proposal episode and Rory said this:

"Logan… I'm sorry… I can't. I love you. You know how much I love you. I love the idea of being married to you... but... there are just a lot of things right now in my life that are undecided. And that used to scare me, but now I-I kind of like the idea that...it’s just all kind of...wide open. And if I married you, it just wouldn't be."

She never said that she wanted to marry him. She said she loved the idea but.... Just that part of the conversation, forgetting the rest where Rory says that they can do long distance yada yada, she still never said she wanted to marry him. I said earlier (or many other forum) that she could have asked for a long engagement to stay with him while still figuring out the career part of her life, but she didn't offer him anything. But now, I notice that she never really said she wanted to marry him. It wasn't a "I want to marry you, but not now," it was a "the idea of being married to you is nice, but no." Which is worse.

[stan4]

He wanted to get married NOW.  She said no to getting married NOW. Because that was the question.  Marry me NOW, go with me NOW, eat guac with me NOW.

 

Obviously since she said she was factoring him in (or each other), she saw them as long term together.  It was the all or nothing right now thing she said no to.

Edited June 25, 2018 by stan4

[andromeda331]

On ‎6‎/‎25‎/‎2018 at 12:09 PM, stan4 said:

He wanted to get married NOW.  She said no to getting married NOW. Because that was the question.  Marry me NOW, go with me NOW, eat guac with me NOW.

 

Obviously since she said she was factoring him in (or each other), she saw them as long term together.  It was the all or nothing right now thing she said no to.

She was and Logan was the one that told her Logan tells her that he didn't know where he was going to be next or doing next but that she should do what she wants to do and then maybe he'll factor Rory in.  Logan tells her to make her decision based on what Rory wanted for herself. True he didn't know he was going to end up with a job offer in San Francisco. But that's not fair to tell Rory that she should do what she wanted to do and then in a few weeks or whenever decide to move to San Francisco, propose to Rory and have her move to San Francisco. I know he wanted to surprise her but he made all the decisions without talking to Rory and really without giving her that much time to think about it. Moving to San Francisco and trying to get a job at one of the San Francisco papers, was that what Rory wanted? She said no so no she probably didn't. She brings up long distance but he doesn't want to do that anymore. Had the situation being reversed and say Rory decided to take the job at the Providence paper, found a place to live and decide to propose to Logan would he have been happy with that? Moving to Providence? Maybe in that episode but maybe not. He doesn't know yet what kind of job he wants or he'll find. If it ends up in San Francisco is it fair to him to give up that job? Or moved to Providence with Rory and have to look for a job there? Why does he expect the same thing from Rory? He didn't tell her that he changed his mind that he wanted to marry Rory and move to San Francisco. Rory had no idea he changed his mind until he proposed to her. That's not really fair. Rory doesn't even know yet that he doesn't want to do the long distance thing. She decides she's not ready for marriage but thinks they can still do the long distance. She doesn't know its not an option until he tells her when she explains why she turns down the proposal. So she has no idea their entire relationship is going to end if she says no. That's not fair either.  

[tarotx]

In Hay Bale Maze, Rory and Logan were talking about her decision on rather or not she wanted to take the Providence job. He noticed Rory was doing a Pro-Con list and saw that she had question marks on his name. He told her not to worry about factoring him in for this decision. Basically that if she goes to Providence it would be up to him to factor her in. And Rory told Logan that in general, she would like to factor him in. Logan clearly took that to mean they were both on the same page. But Rory didn't understand what that all meant. 

Later Rory had the conversation with Paris in the episode 7.19 - It's Just Like Riding A Bike:

Quote

RORY: Well, those are all valid questions.

PARIS: No, they're not. This decision is the culmination of everything I've ever worked for, everything. I should choose a school based on its merits, not based on its proximity to some guy.

RORY: But Doyle's not just some guy.

PARIS: I know. But I'm only 22. This wasn't supposed to happen yet. I wasn't supposed to meet the guy until I was 30 and clerking for a federal judge or finishing up my residency and when I knew where I'd be when I was ready to settle down.

RORY: Yeah, but you can't plan everything. I mean, you fell in love. That's a good thing.

PARIS: Are you willing to make a decision this big based on Logan?

RORY: Well, actually, we talked about it, and we're gonna factor each other in.

PARIS: What does that mean?

RORY: It just means we're gonna take each other into consideration when we make decisions.

PARIS: Okay. So carry that thought out. Let's say you get The New York Times fellowship and Logan's meetings in San Francisco go incredibly well and he wants to move there. Do you take a job in San Francisco? The chronicle is a perfectly adequate paper. Or do you go to The New York Times?

RORY: The New York Times.

PARIS: Then we're saying the same thing, aren't we?

RORY: No, not at all.

PARIS: You're saying your career is your priority over your relationship.

RORY: They're both priorities.

PARIS: But your career comes first.

RORY: Well, I didn't say it comes first. I -- I'm just not ready to make any sacrifices in that area yet.

PARIS: But you are willing to make sacrifices in your relationship. Hence, your career is more important to you, just like me. 

RORY: Well, I wouldn't say "more important." I guess I just thought that if Logan and I have to do long-distance again, we'll make it work.

PARIS: Sure. Maybe. Then again, choosing to be apart might be... choosing to be apart.

Rory probably should have seen this coming. Not the marriage proposal but the San Fran part of it. Logan thought he and Rory were on the same page that they were going to factor each other in depending on who got the job first.  Long distance wasn't an issue for her, they did it already although they had both hated it. They both found themselves Jealous at times. And that was when Logan could come back a lot. It would be different when he didn't have Huntzberger money to provide that ability. And this time there was no job forcing the Long distance. Rory didn't have a job or even prospects of a job. She just wasn't ready to limit her prospects for Logan.

What Logan did wrong (way wrong) was the public proposal. It left Rory without time to think things out. Logan knew Rory needed Pro-con lists. he even mentions for her to do a pro-con list during the Bridesmaid debacle. I think it makes no sense that he would propose in public especially at a stuffy Emily/DAR-ish party.