S09.E10: Road Trip

[rue721]

Dean and Castiel enlist the help of Crowley in tracking down Gadreel, and removing him from Sam's body.

 

[rue721]

When he and Sam had that fight at the end of the previous episode, and Dean said that he'll go off on his own because he's too toxic to be around anyone, and Sam said that he should go off on his own but that that wasn't why, what was the actual reason why? Because Sam felt betrayed so he didn't want Dean near him? Sorry to be dense, it just seemed like it was supposed to be obvious, but Dean being poison to everyone around him actually did seem like a reasonably good reason for him to go, and that also seemed like it matched up with the "Sam hates him right now" thing?

 

Dean thinks he is poison but that's not really true, that's just his general low-self-esteem and guilt speaking. As Crowley said, no one hates him more than he does himself.

Sam doesn't think Dean is poison, and he doesn't want to hear Dean going on and on about being poison while at the same time talking about killing the angel. It's not about taking revenge, it's about not doing it again and I think that's what Sam meant.

 

Or maybe I'm projecting because that's what I felt at the time.

 

Dean saying that he's toxic is melodramatic imo, but isn't that just his way of saying that he knows what he did was bad but that he couldn't stop himself and can't change? Or saying that he did this to Sam because that's who he is? I actually do think that's true. Not in the "Dean is toxic!!1!" sense, but in the sense that there isn't really any scenario in which Dean is going to let Sam die. Sam's already dead? Sam isn't Sam, he's a soulless shell? Sam dying would close Hell? Sam wants to die? Doesn't matter, Dean's not going to let him die. He literally said back in the day that it was his *one job.*

 

And he always awkwardly brings up the "on my watch" thing (he did about Kevin's death, too), which doesn't even make sense in that apparently there's nobody to come and relieve him, so I guess it's just perpetually his "watch"? Doesn't really leave Sam with much agency if it's always Dean's watch, so Dean is always in charge and everything is always his responsibility.

 

When I saw this episode back when it aired, I thought that Dean was The Worst because of betraying Sam like that, so it's not that I think Sam's wrong to feel betrayed or to distrust him. It's that I think that what Dean was saying was the problem (that holding on so tight it destroys what he's trying to hold onto, is something intrinsic to him) was the actual problem. So what did Sam think the problem was?

[catrox14]

I do not understand what it was that Sam thought was the problem. That was such a bad scene at the end of a fairly bad episode IMO.

Dean saying he's poison IMO is not Dean trying to manipulate Sam or ignore Sam. Dean realizes he fucked up by allowing Sam to live via angel.

Dean has long thought he was poison and 90% crap. He knows this was an awful choice resulting in Kevin's murder. Sam saying "Go. I won't stop you" IMO was Sam being manipulative because if he really didn't want Dean to leave he neeed to be more explicit as to why.

[DittyDotDot]

catrox14, on 20 Dec 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:catrox14, on 20 Dec 2014 - 02:01 AM, said:

I do not understand what it was that Sam thought was the problem. That was such a bad scene at the end of a fairly bad episode IMO.

 

I think Sam's saying Dean is only seeing the consequences as bad--Kevin getting killed--but Dean's not really seeing where he actually went wrong. It's kind of akin someone robbing a convenience store and unintentionally killing someone with a gun they thought they'd only use to scare the clerk, then saying they shouldn't have used a loaded gun, even if the safety was on. Instead of realizing the moment it all went wrong was making the decision to rob the store in the first place. 

 

Dean doesn't regret having Sam possessed against his will, only regrets Kevin had to die. This is how Dean ended up selling his soul back in S2, which ended with him in Hell and breaking the first seal. Apparently what Dean took away from that is don't make a deal with a devil, rather than seeing his overriding need to save Sam is the actual issue. That's the problem, IMO, Dean will always make the choice to save Sam thinking he can deal with the consequences, whether Sam wants to be saved or not. I don't fault Dean for having the desire to save his brother, I only fault him for acting on it in such a foolhardy way--especially considering he should've learned this only leads to more bad by now.

 

 

ETA: Actually, I don't even fault Dean for acting on his desire to save Sam, but I think that's were Sam's frustration comes from here anyway.

Edited December 20, 2014 by DittyDotDot

[supposebly]

 

Dean doesn't regret having Sam possessed against his will, only regrets Kevin had to die. This is how Dean ended up selling his soul back in S2, which ended with him in Hell and breaking the first seal. Apparently what Dean took away from that is don't make a deal with a devil, rather than seeing his overriding need to save Sam is the actual issue.

 

Thank you. That's what I wanted so say but didn't really have the words.

[DittyDotDot]

Bastards! They did it again. I'd like to know who it is on the show who has a hate-on for dogs--I'd like to send them a strongly worded letter about how unnecessary it is to kill adorable and innocent little dogs just to do their stupid blood phone thing. I'll say it again, bastards! ;)

 

I got a riddle for you all: how many "things" can one cram into a Sam before that Sam explodes?

 

Personally, not a fan of this episode. I guess it's alright and there's a couple funny bits, but mostly I'm just bored throughout it. Cecily was interesting though, even if I felt like she was entirely unnecessary. And, I'm sorry but I don't think I can ever get on-board with sticking needles into vessels heads to get into the "brain" of an angel. Nonsense for shock value is still nonsense to me.

 

I think they missed a great opportunity to make Sam proactive and change up their stale episode format also. They could've cut a lot of the RoboGadreel crap and followed Sam around in his head working the cheerleader-killing ghoul case with Dean and him slowly figuring out that all was not right with it.  Oh well, it is what it is, right?

 

Could Sam and Dean breaking up be more of a soap opera? Ugh. I get what they were doing with it, but it's just so...ugh!

 

The good to end on: Crowley's election speech at the end never fails to amuse me

 

First there's this...

"I'm talking to them, the average demon, because I feel their pain. It must have been difficult, with your loving king so cruelly taken from you. I imagine you felt all at sea. And then along came...The brute. She's strong...and a knight and immortal --at the moment. So I'm not surprised that some of my more idiotic subjects bought her line. But now? Good news, fellas. Daddy's home."

 

And then there's this...

 "It's a campaign. Hearts and minds, that's what's important. See, the demons have a choice -- take orders from the world's angriest ginger -- and that's saying something -- or join my team, where everyone gets a say, a virgin, and all the entrails they can eat. So, think on this, lads. Spread the word -- vote Crowley."

 

HA!

[GirlyGeek]

You know, maybe I'm tired. Maybe it's the fact that I just came off a binge watch of the last half of Season 8 and right into season 9, so, comparably, I'm not finding much to nitpick here.

Yes there was some soapy stuff and Dean and Sam are not a-ok, as they shouldn't be, but I was interested and engaged for the episode and that's more than I can say for a lot of Season 8 at least.

Deans messed up in the head and it's really showing now. And yes, he is taking the wrong lesson from what's happened. Or at least he's not taking all the lessons from it thst he should. I honestly don't remember much from the first watch when it all aired, so I don't remember what's coming except for bits and pieces, which is probably for the best.

Is it wrong that I wanted someone to thank Crowley for helping?! I know, bad guy, evil, etc, but he came through for Dean and Sam - throw the guy a bone. But I admit I have a weakness for Mark Sheppard ;)

[RulerofallIsurvey]

This was my 2nd ep last night, but I got tired and didn't feel like commenting.  

• I actually liked Crowley in this ep.  Which bothers me greatly.  I don't want to like Crowley.  He's a demon, for Pete's sake.  You can't trust him (demon, duh) and he is not a friendly (demon, hello!)  I don't mind enjoying the character, but I don't want to like him.  
• Where on earth do they find these random out of the way places with convenient functioning antique dentist chairs and what not? Last week it was the demon-bunker where Malachi tortured Cas and this week it's the angel expulsion-bunker for Sam.  And why can't I ever stumble across anything that cool when I explore derelict places?
• Kind of liked Cecily too - although for as smart as she was, she was stupid to admit to Abaddon that she was playing both sides.  While Crowley might have appreciated that kind of sleaziness, I knew at once Abaddon would not.  Know your opponent, chica.  
• Oh Cas, don't blame Gad for all of creation's problems.  God left.  He could have stayed and fixed it.  But he left.  So that's on him.  No matter what Gad did or didn't do.  
• Sam does have a right to be angry at Dean. But then again, Dean saved his life, so how bout just a little bit of gratitude for that, huh?  I got the feeling Sam was more angry over Dean lying to him about it than allowing the angel possession in the first place.
• And yes, Dean.  Kevin's death is on your hands.  (So why do I routinely see it attributed to Sam on the net?)  But stop with the whiney, mopey, woe-is-me crap.  It doesn't suit you.

[DittyDotDot]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

And yes, Dean.  Kevin's death is on your hands.  (So why do I routinely see it attributed to Sam on the net?) 

Really? I guess I don't get out of this corner of the internet enough, I've never heard anyone suggest it was on Sam for this one. I guess some people could be confused since it was Sam's body? I got nothin'.

[AwesomO4000]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I got the feeling Sam was more angry over Dean lying to him about it than allowing the angel possession in the first place.

This was my interpretation also. "You lied to me" was the first thing he seemed angry about to me, and that would make sense, because Gadreel was a quick decision Dean made when Sam was dying and Dean was desperate, but the lying part went on for quite a while and  for a lot of it, it left Sam wondering if there was something inherently wrong with him (and having his memories erased and messed with)**. But Dean let Sam keep thinking there was something wrong with him rather than tell him the truth.

And yes, I know Gadreel was blocking Dean's efforts but, come on! We've seen Sam and Dean in the past communicate with each other in sneaky ways - like in "The Usual Suspects" or "Hunted." Dean could've found all sorts of sneaky ways to let Sam at least know that he (Sam) wasn't "tainted" or "wrong" and that yes, something was going on with him. and maybe he should look into it. Heck why even wait to have Crowley use Poughkeepsie? Just write it down in Sam's room and get Sam wondering.

As we've said before - brain damage.

** However warning: even though all of that makes sense to us now... well let's just say you have a bumpy road coming up and leave it at that. I think you'll need something not too damaging to throw at the screen in 3 episodes.

I personally don't think there was much of an attempt to make Sam's motivations make much sense this season, or at least there didn't seem to be much of a desire to clarify it^^ - and I know it's awful to think this way, but I don't think the writers cared. A long as we got good Dean angst, I think Sam was pretty much an afterthought this season myself, and for me, it was already showing by this episode.

^^ As in we shouldn't have to be saying after this episode "I got the feeling that Sam was more angry over Dean lying to him." We should know, because they should've made it clear. But that's not what they were going for here. Welcome to the Carver years.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

26 minutes ago, AwesomO4000 said:

I think you'll need something not too damaging to throw at the screen in 3 episodes.

Lol!  Or more alcohol as a coping mechanism?  ;)

[AwesomO4000]

1 hour ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Lol!  Or more alcohol as a coping mechanism?  ;)

Hee! Actually this is more of throw something situation - trust me on this one.

[catrox14]

Taking my reply to the All Seasons Thread

[Dobian]

I'm actually liking season 9.  Except for one clunker I've liked the main story and motw eps.  The whole angel war plus Crowley is pretty fun.  I had to laugh at Sam getting his brain skewered being added to the list of all the other damage he's taken on this show.  I fully expect after this series is done that they flash forward ten years into the future, and Sam and Dean will trip down some stairs and shatter into a thousand pieces like at the end of Death Becomes Her.

[DittyDotDot]

Ah, Cecily, we barely knew you. Too smart and too stupid for your own good.

All I can say right now is: BOO HOO, Dean Winchester, cry me a river. And, Sam Winchester, SHUT UP! Gah. Era of the Petty Little Jerks, Era of the Petty Little Jerks. Deep breath...this too will come to pass. 

I forgot to heed my own advice and down copious amounts of alcohol before watching...but, I feel a bit better now. Whew. ;)

[bettername2come]

The rock music has really gone downhill on this show. I'm glad that Gadreel at least feels some remorse for Kevin's death. Did the demon lady kill the dog? Is dog blood even supposed to work for a blood phone? They've always used human in the past. Poor demon chick with glasses. I liked her. Well, for a demon. "Something with ghouls and cheerleaders." I would've liked to see that episode. "I prefer the word 'trusting.' Less dumb, less ass." I like that Castiel is mad at Gadreel for wrecking the universe, but that was not Misha's finest performance. I love the use of Crowley here. His red smoke looked cool. I love Jared's delivery of "Did I kill Kevin?" And almost as much Crowley's "No. You didn't. He did." He sounds so honest. Like he just might care about Kevin and Sam and wants to reassure him. It's the moment I trust Crowley the most out of the entire series. "Cast that punkass holy roller OUT!" Mark Sheppard should play a televangelist sometime. I like watching Sam fight Gadreel. Then again, I always love when Sam wins fights. I do like Jensen's delivery of "I'll burn for that." I don't like when Sam and Dean break up in the rain. 

[Hanahope]

Sam and Dean break up again?  This is getting old.  Course so is the lying for your own good bit.  They both need to just stop.  

A person can be possessed by both an angel and a demon?  Or just Sam cause he's special?

and we're back on the Crowley redemption arc story.  But I like him better than Abbaddon, he keeps his deals.  

[Wayward Son]

Quick Question; why was the Crowley torture necessary? Once they had Gadreel captured why didn’t they use the correct version of the sigil from last episode? I thought the problem with it was the fact Gadreel had slightly altered it (as shown by the paint on his fingers he showed to Dean) and not the potency of the sigil itself? Wouldn’t it have been easier to just talk to Sam using it than wasting all that time first torturing him and then forcing a double possession? 

 

In regards to the double possession it doesn’t bother me that Sam was capable of controlling it. Sam is the second most powerful vessel on earth (second only to Dean who is the true vessel of Michael), he should be more than capable of handling a run of the mill angel and a demon.

[catrox14]

6 minutes ago, Wayward Son said:

Quick Question; why was the Crowley torture necessary? Once they had Gadreel captured why didn’t they use the correct version of the sigil from last episode? I thought the problem with it was the fact Gadreel had slightly altered it (as shown by the paint on his fingers he showed to Dean) and not the potency of the sigil itself? Wouldn’t it have been easier to just talk to Sam using it than wasting all that time first torturing him and then forcing a double possession? 

[Iju]

my mother was up and arms on dean agreeing with crowley on his deal, but i didn't really care because (1 i love crowley and i missed him damn it (2 because dean will do anything for his family and (3 it's his only chance at getting closer to throw the angels back, and as a side note get abbadon gone once and for all. and all of these things are connected to crowley. there are no other plans so...what? sit down and watch the world die?

crowley's "possession" of sam was shorter than i thought it would be. oh well, got the job done.

crowley immediately taking the wheels as soon as abbadon appeared. love my man/demon. she's so ignorant of his capabilities. she's (apparently) even older than him but is so wet behind the ears. 

this whole break up thing is so weak. sam has every right to get mad at dean but it's not like he's bewildered. heaven has proven they are freaking soulmates. if his soul is gone, so is half of dean's. he already loses his head whenever sam is hurt, so can you really blame him when his little brother, his only link to the earth and literally himself is gone? answer: nope. besides, didn't he say he'd be sam's sam (gamgee). and last i check, when frodo had chosen to give up on his journey, sam picked him up and took him to the volcano. you see? when frodo made his decision to die, when he was ready to give up and let everything go, sam wouldn't have it. this is no different from what dean did for sam. except, frodo was grateful for sam and loved him more than anything sam (winchester) isn't.

it's not that hard for the writers to not go through the same old slop that the brothers faced seasons and seasons before. in fact, when it did happen in the past, it was a good thing. they need their problems to get stronger and mature. but for it to appear now makes NO sense. this is perhaps the third time i'm saying this. they are complex characters to the point where they aren't even characters anymore, they are people, almost real. after dean saved sam from killing himself, there could have been a women who entered their lives that dean was attracted to but is bad for him, as in she exacerbates his drinking problem because she encourages it and does it with him. and sam has to try to convince him he needs to let go. however, his worry for his brother gets in the way of his jealousy and he tries to convince him to break up with the woman in the wrong way. to me, this doesn't sound like some hashed up goopy fanfic but could actually happen in the show, because this is a problem with dean that is constantly mentioned but never dealt with (so far). and when time loops around and dean gets hurt in one way or another, there is a yet another chance for them to have a stronger bond and have more trust with each other. i'm not saying it has to be dragged out for a whole season, but the first half would be fine.

see? i'm not trying to say they should have 100% trust in each other 100% of the time. even in the closest of relationships people make mistakes of not trusting their loved ones. we just need bigger bones to chew this time and this ain't cutting it. it's like watching boys fight over a toy when they were 5, and are doing the exact same when they are decades older. not fun. not cute.

[The Companion]

The good probably outweighed the bad on this episode except for the ridiculous angst at the end, which felt oh so melodramatic and ridiculous. Would it kill them to write a scene where the brothers are upset at each other and they actually speak to each other instead of stomping away or talking around one another. The "I'm poison" talk was so over the top to me, and somehow Dean managed to make it about him. The thing is that Sam specifically said he didn't want to live if it meant others had to die. His whole fear, as expressed at the beginning of the episode, was that survival came with terrible consequences. Dean can take all the blame he wants, but Sam has to live with the fact that his body killed Kevin and that sucks. Also that his brother lied to him again (though he sort of doesn't have much of a leg to stand on). 

Backing up, despite the nonsensical way they went about it, I really enjoyed the fight in Sam's head. It was funny that apparently he was able to walk and function with those needles in his brain as a human. I was thinking: Cas, get on healing that STAT, dude. I really enjoyed Cecily (RIP). As much as I dislike Crowley, who loves nothing more than the sound of his own voice, I loved the way he manipulated and frustrated Castiel and Dean. It was entertaining. I did hate that Dean agreed to go along with everything Crowley proposed after deciding not to deal with him, but I get it. 

I did not care about Abner. Not killing him would have been more surprising. I did wonder what happened to his wife and kid. They were going to a movie and apparently never came home. 

Oh, and can I please laugh at the fact that Dean needed to scrounge up a ride and they had to walk miles with a gas can. If only there was an entire garage full of cars and motorcycles. You are going to tell me he hasn't gotten one of those in working order?