TCM: The Greatest Movie Channel

[Wiendish Fitch]

2 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Having a show point that out isn't censorship. 

Thank you. It isn't censorship at all, not even close. If we deleted Mickey Rooney's scenes from Breakfast at Tiffany's, or banned 1915's Birth of a Nation from ever being in print, that would be censorship, but that isn't what's happening. We're having a much needed discussion about the elements in these movies that shouldn't be cropping up today, and hopefully learning from our past mistakes (which, considering all that's going on, we haven't come close to doing).

[Razzberry]

3 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

Well, SF has gotten weirder and weirder over time.  To say "even in" SF...  nah, SF is at the forefront of this stuff.  Who is electing the officials out there?

Good point.  Not me, I can't afford to live there anymore.  There's now a petition to tear down the iconic statue of Junipero Serra on the 280 freeway, like trying to cancel the Hispanic founding of the state.  Next we'll have to rename half the cities.  It's crazy. 

But anyway, back to our regular programming.  Looking forward to watching "Being There" soon, haven't seen that in years!

[vb68]

1 hour ago, Razzberry said:

But anyway, back to our regular programming.  Looking forward to watching "Being There" soon, haven't seen that in years!

Likewise I haven't sat down and watched "Almost Famous" since I saw it in the theaters. That movie is a complete joy from beginning to end.

I got so much watching it now from Frances McDormand as the mom.  She's both a fierce intimidating presence and an absolute hoot. And the love for both her kids shines through it all. It's just lovely.

I don't know if I ever knew Jimmy Fallon was in this or not. He comes on board near the end in a wig. And in a bit of trivia, I recognized Michael Angarano's name in the credits. Of course now he's the younger version of Uncle Nicky on This Is Us.  Turns out he's the younger William at the beginning of the movie. Who knew? 

Edited April 2, 2021 by vb68

[Suzn]

9 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Thank you. It isn't censorship at all, not even close. If we deleted Mickey Rooney's scenes from Breakfast at Tiffany's, or banned 1915's Birth of a Nation from ever being in print, that would be censorship, but that isn't what's happening. We're having a much needed discussion about the elements in these movies that shouldn't be cropping up today, and hopefully learning from our past mistakes (which, considering all that's going on, we haven't come close to doing).

I didn't intend to indicate that TCM censors or advocates censoring movies.  There was something about the reframing discussions that bothered me and I may not be able to explain adequately.  Without a doubt there are objectionable things in old movies (and current ones for that matter), but I think you can appreciate them for being of their time.  There are some things that I find egregious that pretty much ruin a few old movies for me, but other things I can accept as being made without negative intent but merely a reflection of the time, the good and the bad.

Edited April 3, 2021 by Suzn

[Milburn Stone]

9 hours ago, Suzn said:

I didn't intend to indicate that TCM censors or advocates censoring movies.  There was something about the reframing discussions that bothered me and I may not be able to explain adequately.

I haven't seen the reframings (nor have I read White's article) so take that into account, but I think I know what's bothering you. (At least I know what's bothering me.) The idea of reframing has a whiff of cowardice behind it. "We're afraid to show you this movie unless we 'reframe' it, which will let us off the hook." And it has a hint of contempt about it. "We think you won't understand that this movie captures a culture that had different beliefs, you idiots, unless we spoon-feed you that blazing insight."

[ruby24]

Except they're not afraid to show them- many of these movies in the series are shown on TCM constantly. They're just now having these discussions about them to point things out, etc. I think it's really interesting.

[HyeChaps]

It's Easter weekend, but where are all the Easter movies?  I can usually find King of Kings, The Greatest Story Ever Told, Jesus of Nazareth, Barabbas, and some others (not just TCM, but other movie channels too).  One channel has Ben-Hur.

Of course TCM has Easter Parade.

 

 

[Suzn]

7 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I haven't seen the reframings (nor have I read White's article) so take that into account, but I think I know what's bothering you. (At least I know what's bothering me.) The idea of reframing has a whiff of cowardice behind it. "We're afraid to show you this movie unless we 'reframe' it, which will let us off the hook." And it has a hint of contempt about it. "We think you won't understand that this movie captures a culture that had different beliefs, you idiots, unless we spoon-feed you that blazing insight."

Yes, I think you've zeroed in on what felt wrong about the reframing discussions.  There was a condescending tone that we needed to have someone explain what was wrong with Gone With The Wind...  I think it is something each of us can work out for ourselves, the problematic parts and the parts of lasting value.

[vb68]

7 hours ago, HyeChaps said:

It's Easter weekend, but where are all the Easter movies? 

It's Oscar month, so they are on to to 31 Days of Oscar even though it's so late this year. I guess that programming takes precedence. 

Edited April 4, 2021 by vb68

[Suzn]

12 minutes ago, vb68 said:

It's Oscar months, so they are on to to 31 Days of Oscar even though it's so late this year. I guess that programming takes precedence. 

But happenstance puts Easter Parade on Easter!

[mariah23]

4 hours ago, HyeChaps said:

It's Easter weekend, but where are all the Easter movies?  I can usually find King of Kings, The Greatest Story Ever Told, Jesus of Nazareth, Barabbas, and some others (not just TCM, but other movie channels too).  One channel has Ben-Hur.

Of course TCM has Easter Parade.

 

 

31 Days of Oscar takes precedence.

[vb68]

Do the ratings go up that much during 31 Days of Oscar? I have no idea.

[Rinaldo]

13 hours ago, vb68 said:

Do the ratings go up that much during 31 Days of Oscar? I have no idea.

It's not a question of ratings; if ratings were all that mattered, TCM wouldn't be showing old movies at all. 31 Days of Oscar is a special month for the channel every year, like Summer Under the Stars, that pre-empts usual programming. It happens that this year, the Oscars occur later in the year than they have for some time, so there's a conflict. At least, as some have pointed out, serendipity puts Easter Parade on the right date.

I wanted to point out one gem coming up Monday, for those who might not know it: The Fallen Idol. It's part of the evidence for my "Carol Reed deserves to be regularly listed among the great film directors" position. A great performance by Ralph Richardson, and a subtle, memorable story, beautifully filmed. 

[vb68]

1 hour ago, Rinaldo said:

It's not a question of ratings; if ratings were all that mattered, TCM wouldn't be showing old movies at all.

 Of course. I just meant relatively speaking inside their own bubble of programming. I guess it's kind of like their version of Sweeps month for the lack of any better comparison. It does seem like very smart marketing and branding for the channel.

Edited April 4, 2021 by vb68

[Razzberry]

3 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

I wanted to point out one gem coming up Monday, for those who might not know it: The Fallen Idol. It's part of the evidence for my "Carol Reed deserves to be regularly listed among the great film directors" position. A great performance by Ralph Richardson, and a subtle, memorable story, beautifully filmed. 

Thank you!  That's been on my 'must see' list along with The Third Man for a while now.  The trailers look fantastic.

 

 

[Inquisitionist]

On 4/3/2021 at 3:27 PM, Suzn said:

Yes, I think you've zeroed in on what felt wrong about the reframing discussions.  There was a condescending tone that we needed to have someone explain what was wrong with Gone With The Wind...  I think it is something each of us can work out for ourselves, the problematic parts and the parts of lasting value.

But perhaps SOME viewers will benefit from this.  When I saw and read GWTW as a 12-year-old, eons ago, I naively thought its sympathetic depiction of the unnamed Klan was accurate -- no one had taught me any differently.  

[Razzberry]

Did anyone watch Carol from 2016 last night?  Was glad to see them mix it up a bit with a relatively new film, and I love Cate Blanchett in just about anything.  The 50's sets and colors were as sumptuous as Far From Heaven, but I felt little chemistry between the two leads and it moved at a glacial pace.  I'm not a fan of overly "talky" films, but was left wondering what on earth these two were about.

[Suzn]

5 minutes ago, Inquisitionist said:

But perhaps SOME viewers will benefit from this.  When I saw and read GWTW as a 12-year-old, eons ago, I naively thought its sympathetic depiction of the unnamed Klan was accurate -- no one had taught me any differently.  

Yes, there may be adults lacking education about the Klan, but somehow it seems unlikely that those who are sympathetic to the Klan are watching a Gone With the Wind reframing discussion. 😁

[Simon Boccanegra]

8 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Did anyone watch Carol from 2016 last night?  Was glad to see them mix it up a bit with a relatively new film, and I love Cate Blanchett in just about anything.  The 50's sets and colors were as sumptuous as Far From Heaven, but I felt little chemistry between the two leads and it moved at a glacial pace.  I'm not a fan of overly "talky" films, but was left wondering what on earth these two were about.

It's a favorite of mine from the last ten years or so, and there's almost nothing about it I would want changed, so mileage varies. However, I remember people saying similar things about Brokeback Mountain in 2005-06 -- that they didn't see what the two guys had in common or what their deep connection was supposed to be about. In both cases we're looking back at a more furtive and fearful time for same-sex relationships, and in both cases one party is more experienced and assured than the other at the start. There isn't the same kind of milieu available for meeting and easy auditioning of potential partners as there would be later. The initial chemistry is in looks, intuition, what's beneath the words. Once a connection is made, what follows is a first timer's experience, and in Carol the imbalance is more pronounced because one of the parties is some years older. However, Therese ends the story a confident person using her talents to establish herself in a profession, and Carol too has growth, and the progress they make isn't all about their relationship. They have lives and interiority apart from that, which I like. I love Blanchett's big scene with her husband and their attorneys, the "live against my grain" speech.  

I thought Cincinnati very convincingly passed for the New York of an earlier time. 

Kyle Chandler is so good as Blanchett's estranged husband. The character is well written, but his was an overlooked performance. On paper, his character is the villain, but he isn't really a villain. Even when he's drunk and angry, there are lines of behavior he will not cross; he's a gentleman. There's just nothing in his privileged background to prepare him for this. Like the wives in Brokeback Mountain, he loves and cannot be loved in return.

Edited April 5, 2021 by Simon Boccanegra

[Milburn Stone]

6 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

[Carol is] a favorite of mine from the last ten years or so, and there's almost nothing about it I would want changed...

Your post is a great piece of capsule movie criticism, if you'll pardon my heaping you with praise, @Simon Boccanegra. I define a great piece of movie criticism as something that helps me notice something in the work I hadn't. Everything you say is something I was aware of when I saw it, but I didn't see down to what was underneath. I loved some of Todd Haynes' work before Carol (Superstar, Safe, Far From Heaven) and after it (his segment of Six by Sondheim, Wonderstruck), but Carol left me a little cold. Yet it left me cold in a way different from "dislike"; it left me cold in a way that made me think, "Todd Haynes is too good to make a bad movie; there's something here I'm not quite getting, that would be worth a revisit." Your post confirms that. 

P.S. I felt similarly un-blown away by his mini-series remake of Mildred Pierce. If you have anything to say in defense of that, I'll be most interested! :)

P.P.S. If anyone hasn't seen Wonderstruck, see it. A tour de force, full of feeling. (Which not all tours de force are.)

[Charlie Baker]

TCM Mega Birthday Day:

Bette Davis, Spencer Tracy, Gregory Peck, Walter Huston, and Melvyn Douglas were all born on April 5th.

[Inquisitionist]

43 minutes ago, Charlie Baker said:

TCM Mega Birthday Day:

Bette Davis, Spencer Tracy, Gregory Peck, Walter Huston, and Melvyn Douglas were all born on April 5th.

So was Jane Asher, who turns 75 today.  She isn't of the same stature, but she appeared in a classic film of the early swingin' sixties, Alfie.  Perhaps most impressive to me is that since their breakup in 1968, it appears she has not uttered a single public word about her 5-year relationship with Paul McCartney.  Classy. 

[Simon Boccanegra]

It's a shame Jane Asher isn't better known, other than as Paul's most significant pre-Linda relationship and the subject of some of his Beatles-era love songs (and "fight" songs, e.g., "I'm Looking Through You"). Although she has a lot of television and movie credits, I think much of her best work has been on the stage. She played Miss Havisham to great acclaim at the West Yorkshire a few years ago.

[Milburn Stone]

On a 2008 trip to London, we walked into the cake shop she owned on Kings Road/Chelsea (as I remember it) on the chance that she might be there! She wasn't, but we were still excited. I hope it still exists.

That's all I got.

[Razzberry]

11 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

It's a favorite of mine from the last ten years or so, and there's almost nothing about it I would want changed, so mileage varies. However, I remember people saying similar things about Brokeback Mountain in 2005-06 -- that they didn't see what the two guys had in common or what their deep connection was supposed to be about.

 Brokeback Mountain was wonderful film, but Carol was a case of style over substance for me and had less of an impact.

[ruby24]

I watched Quo Vadis (1951) yesterday. Had never seen it and was in the mood for a biblical epic in honor of Easter. Thought it was pretty good. That last extended sequence in the gladiator arena was nuts. Peter Ustinov was pretty great as Nero. Didn't really like either of the main characters much though- Robert Taylor and Deborah Kerr. He was basically a jerk and she had a pretty lame role as the weeping love interest. But the spectacle of it all was entertaining.

[Inquisitionist]

14 minutes ago, ruby24 said:

I watched Quo Vadis (1951) yesterday. 

A personal tangent here:  my maternal grandfather in northern Italy read many epics, including Quo Vadis.  When he took his baby daughter to be baptized in 1927 or so, he told the priest her name would be Licia (this is how the name Lygia was rendered in Italian:  LEE-cha).  The priest balked, saying that was a pagan name.  My grandfather countered that 

Spoiler

the character in Quo Vadis converted to Christianity

(in case that's a spoiler!)  The priest relented, and so I have an aunt Licia.  😊

[Rinaldo]

5 hours ago, Simon Boccanegra said:

It's a shame Jane Asher isn't better known...

The main thing I know her for in film is a 1967 movie of The Winter's Tale. Though adapted from a stage production, it played in theaters, at least on college campuses (including mine, where I saw it) and had other "names" in the cast, like Laurence Harvey, Diana Churchill, and Jim Dale. Yet it's never mentioned in discussions of Shakespeare on film. It might as well never have existed, and I wonder if it is in fact "lost" by now.

[EtheltoTillie]

I saw Jane Asher on the West End stage in 1988 costarring with Ian McKellan in a wacky Alan Ayckbourn play. It was thrilling!

I’m really craving another trip to London!  

Edited April 7, 2021 by GussieK

[Rinaldo]

3 hours ago, GussieK said:

I saw Jane Asher on the West End stage in 1988 costarring with Ian McKellan in a wacky Alan Ayckbourn play. It was thrilling!

Sorry to pursue this on the TCM topic, but what play? I adore the plays of Alan Ayckbourn and have seen a bunch of them, but I can't place this combination at the moment.

[EtheltoTillie]

5 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

Sorry to pursue this on the TCM topic, but what play? I adore the plays of Alan Ayckbourn and have seen a bunch of them, but I can't place this combination at the moment.

It’s Henceforward. Rarely produced, apparently. Reading the Wikipedia summary just now I wish I could see it again!  

[Rinaldo]

(I'm envious. I've read that one, but never had a chance to see it.)

[Rinaldo]

On 4/4/2021 at 3:10 PM, Razzberry said:

Thank you!  That's been on my 'must see' list along with The Third Man for a while now.  The trailers look fantastic.

Did anyone in fact see The Fallen Idol this time around? I keep hoping to be able to talk about it with others.

[VCRTracking]

On 4/5/2021 at 7:32 AM, Simon Boccanegra said:

It's a shame Jane Asher isn't better known, other than as Paul's most significant pre-Linda relationship and the subject of some of his Beatles-era love songs (and "fight" songs, e.g., "I'm Looking Through You"). Although she has a lot of television and movie credits, I think much of her best work has been on the stage. She played Miss Havisham to great acclaim at the West Yorkshire a few years ago.

I watched the BRIDESHEAD REVISITED miniseries from 1981 a while ago and was wondering who played Jeremy Irons' beautiful but vapid and unfaithful wife. I looked it up and it was Jane Asher! I don't know for some reason I associate her with the 60s so it was a surprise to see her with someone I thought of as a 90s movie star.

Edited April 8, 2021 by VCRTracking

[EtheltoTillie]

On 4/7/2021 at 10:38 PM, Rinaldo said:

Did anyone in fact see The Fallen Idol this time around? I keep hoping to be able to talk about it with others.

I have never seen it, and I will try to catch it. 

[Charlie Baker]

Other than her McCartney connection, I too knew Jane Asher best for Brideshead Revisited--one of the best limited TV series ever done. Most recently, I saw her in the video of the London production of the stage version of An American in Paris, which was shown in theaters and on PBS.

I also want to catch The Fallen Idol.

[Inquisitionist]

I've been watching The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone, which I recorded recently, but am not sure I can persevere to the end.  Vivien Leigh is compelling, as always, but the storyline is getting quite depressing and as pretty as Warren Beatty was.... he ain't no Paolo!  

[EtheltoTillie]

3 hours ago, Charlie Baker said:

Other than her McCartney connection, I too knew Jane Asher best for Brideshead Revisited--one of the best limited TV series ever done. Most recently, I saw her in the video of the London production of the stage version of An American in Paris, which was shown in theaters and on PBS.

I also want to catch The Fallen Idol.

It's on Watch TCM for a week or so.

3 hours ago, Inquisitionist said:

I've been watching The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone, which I recorded recently, but am not sure I can persevere to the end.  Vivien Leigh is compelling, as always, but the storyline is getting quite depressing and as pretty as Warren Beatty was.... he ain't no Paolo!  

It is depressing.  But then I've been reading Hemingway stories with my informal book club (three friends who've been Zooming every week to yenta about life, TV shows, movies, and books).  Talk about bleak!  We also watched the new Ken Burns documentary.  It all started when The Killers was on a few weeks ago.  So this is not entirely OT.

Edited April 9, 2021 by GussieK

[Razzberry]

Very unusual in that the main actor in Fallen Idol is a little boy who's endearing rather than annoying. I enjoyed seeing the confusing or frightening world of grownups from his perspective, often from the staircase.

Some themes reminded me of Hitchcock. Mrs. Baines was almost as evil as Mrs. Danvers from Rebecca, and the fear of police/wrong man scenario was there.  Ralph Richardson was wonderful.

[Rinaldo]

Nice comments -- thanks, @Razzberry. The delicacy of the boy's dependence on the adult world that only occasionally notices him is very effectively carried through. He sees more than the grownups realize, but doesn't fully understand what he sees. In the end, trying to help Baines, he condemns him... or would, but nobody takes what he says seriously. And yes, Mrs. Baines is a real piece of work.

Ralph Richardson is a marvel. This film was almost simultaneous with The Heiress, and yet the two characters couldn't seem more different. They even seem to be decidedly different ages, without any obvious age makeup. 

[Charlie Baker]

The Fallen Idol is so beautifully done.  The kid's world is nicely evoked, the suspenseful, adult story is well told from his perspective (love all those shots of his POV looking down at the adults), and yet the movie manages to give the audience information the boy didn't have pretty seamlessly.  Richardson is superb, and it's pretty amazing the performance Carol Reed got from young, inexperienced Bobby Henrey.

[Rinaldo]

Between this and Oliver! (and probably A Kid for Two Farthings, which I haven't seen), it's probably fair to say that Carol Reed was extremely good at getting effective performances from young children.

[Robert Lynch]

On 4/9/2021 at 10:25 AM, Inquisitionist said:

I've been watching The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone, which I recorded recently, but am not sure I can persevere to the end.  Vivien Leigh is compelling, as always, but the storyline is getting quite depressing and as pretty as Warren Beatty was.... he ain't no Paolo!  

That was later remade by HBO production starring Helen Mirren in the 2000s.

[Charlie Baker]

Bobby Henrey reminded me of Mark Lester in Oliver!, though ML was a more experienced actor.

[MissAlmond]

Whenever Kings Row is on, I am there.  One day I shall develop a series where Louise Gordon goes from town to town exposing hypocrisy and freeing women from it.  I wish it was me!

Edited April 15, 2021 by MissAlmond

[Razzberry]

I watched King's Row for the first time last night and was impressed.  The subject matter isn't something you see every day in these older movies.

[aradia22]

Quote

So I watched Carmen Jones last weekend. Dorothy Dandridge is a magnificent screen presence but once again I get annoyed by the old musicals where nobody does their own singing. 

Also I kind of hate the Carmen story in all forms. It’s trying to sell us the story of a man who falls for a “scarlet woman” and who loses his mind when she casts him off. But from a modern standpoint, it takes two to tango. Sure, Carmen is fickle, but he’s the one who dumps the woman he’s engaged to her. He becomes violent and possessive, and that’s what ultimately turns her off. So he kills her when he can’t have her. Nice.

Quote

I'm not trying to tell anybody what to think, or to be argumentative. But aren't most dramas about not-nice people, and the messes they get themselves into? This almost seems a proto-noir scenario, the supposedly nice boy caught between duty and desire, and the tragedy produced thereby, for himself and others.

It's been a while since I read the novella, and it didn't make a huge impression, but from what I remember there's no equivalent to the Micaela character. I saw the recent CSC production of Carmen Jones. I neither loved or hated it (I think I was mostly focused on Anika Noni Rose). As for the opera, it's not as fun as the abridged versions with all the notable songs excerpted, but overall, I can respect that it shows Don Jose as a "jerk." I mean, sure, it's definitely soft-pedaled but I like Rinaldo's perspective about it being a proto-noir. He's less of a nice boy and more of a "nice guy" who falters at the first challenging decision he has to make and is much more evil that Carmen ever was. 

I do hate dubbing but I want to see this movie one day if only because there are so few Dorothy Dandridge movies available.

[aradia22]

Quote

I've been watching The Roman Spring of Mrs. Stone, which I recorded recently, but am not sure I can persevere to the end.  Vivien Leigh is compelling, as always, but the storyline is getting quite depressing and as pretty as Warren Beatty was.... he ain't no Paolo!  

I won't think less of you for giving up. The main thing I remember from the movie is Vivien Leigh's purple dress. Lesser Tennessee Williams imo.

I'm jealous of the musicals you've all been watching. I was actually planning to watch Carol soon (it's expiring from Netflix again) so I'll check back in when I've finished.

[voiceover]

Ahhhh...Sam the Lion.  Ben Johnson's performance in The Last Picture Show has become dearer to me as I've aged (no surprise there I suppose).  I was thinking tonight, watching him tell the story of a 20-years' past affair...How it makes me feel like I've plucked a wellworn, well-loved book from my library shelves, and it's fallen open to one passage on a dog-eared page, and that I'm listening to Ben say those words.

It was the summary of a career of supporting roles in Westerns, but that Oscar wasn't just a Lifetime Achievement Award.  I imagine Larry McMurty had Ben in mind years later, when he fashioned the character of Woodrow Call in Lonesome Dove.

[EtheltoTillie]

4 hours ago, voiceover said:

Ahhhh...Sam the Lion.  Ben Johnson's performance in The Last Picture Show has become dearer to me as I've aged (no surprise there I suppose).  I was thinking tonight, watching him tell the story of a 20-years' past affair...How it makes me feel like I've plucked a wellworn, well-loved book from my library shelves, and it's fallen open to one passage on a dog-eared page, and that I'm listening to Ben say those words.

It was the summary of a career of supporting roles in Westerns, but that Oscar wasn't just a Lifetime Achievement Award.  I imagine Larry McMurty had Ben in mind years later, when he fashioned the character of Woodrow Call in Lonesome Dove.

I love everything about The Last Picture Show. I will catch again on Watch TCM. If anyone is interested, Ben Mankiewicz is on the Gilbert Gotfried podcast. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by GussieK