TCM: The Greatest Movie Channel

[LilWharveyGal]

14 hours ago, voiceover said:

Of course, after "I read the news today; oh boy"...I heard Stockard Channing bellowing: "Won't come across, even Rock Hudson lost/His heart to Doris Daa-a-aay!"

For me it was the earlier line that immediately popped into my head: "Hey, I'm Doris Day. I was not brought up that way!"

Rest peacefully, Ms. Day.

[tennisgurl]

Rest in peace Ms. Day. A true Hollywood legend, who sang one of my favorite songs, all versions of it. 

[voiceover]

The 7th Voyage of Sinbad screens in the a.m.; part of that mini-festival.  Before I'd seen Captain Blood and really understood what loving a swashbuckler was all about, I crushed on Kerwin Mathews.

Happy to say that the film -- and his performance -- holds up as well as I remember it (even all these years later, after watching it in  Mr Woodman's Unified Studies class...when Todd Pinney would be the first to yell out, "Saw her!!" the moment the flash of that bouffant-ed model appeared during the pre-credit countdown).

Bernard Herrmann's score still stirs the blood! And the Ray Harryhausen monsters kick the ass of 2019 CGI.  His dragons were at least *as scary as the Targaryen's.

[StrictTime]

On 4/23/2019 at 5:17 PM, Rinaldo said:

Edited May 21, 2019 by StrictTime
Oops! Sorry I posted this before reading the rest of the replies! I see you found one :)

[AuntiePam]

Roughly Speaking, Rosalind Russell and Jack Carson, 1945, directed by Michael Curtiz.  Did he ever direct a bad movie?  Probably, because there are a gazillion credits on his IMdB page, so some of them must have been clunkers.  If so, I didn't see any of them. 

It's a rag to riches to rags to riches story, taking place from around 1900 to 1942, as Louise marries, has children, divorces, remarries.  Rosalind is luminous and funny, as is Jack Carson as her second husband.  (The man was a hunk!)  The dialogue is so fresh and snappy, it's hard to believe there was any rehearsing.

It's also worth watching as sort of an alternate history of that time period.  The family experienced WWI and the Roaring 20's and the Depression, but not in quite the same way as we've seen in other movies. 

I have no idea where the title came from.  It's the title of the source novel, but it's not literal -- the words "roughly speaking" aren't spoken in the movie, by anyone, and the language itself isn't rough.  So that's kind of a mystery (possibly answered in the novel).

Anyway, I recommend it if it comes around again.

[Milburn Stone]

15 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

Roughly Speaking, Rosalind Russell and Jack Carson, 1945, directed by Michael Curtiz.  Did he ever direct a bad movie?  Probably, because there are a gazillion credits on his IMdB page, so some of them must have been clunkers.  If so, I didn't see any of them. 

I'm enjoying reading Alan Rode's massive biography of Curtiz. A good book for the Kindle--because the hard copy is too big and heavy. Also, somehow, the Kindle lends itself more to skipping around the book and reading long passages in no particular order other than one's interest, which for me is the way to go with a book like this. Lots of good research went into the book. I will see if he has anything on Roughly Speaking.

[AuntiePam]

4 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

I'm enjoying reading Alan Rode's massive biography of Curtiz. A good book for the Kindle--because the hard copy is too big and heavy. Also, somehow, the Kindle lends itself more to skipping around the book and reading long passages in no particular order other than one's interest, which for me is the way to go with a book like this. Lots of good research went into the book. I will see if he has anything on Roughly Speaking.

Please do.  I went looking, and Amazon wants $40 for the Kindle edition, and the hard copies are similarly priced.  $40 for an e-book?  I'm a piker.  I won't pay more than $3.99 for something that I can't touch. 

[fairffaxx]

Your library might have the book (maybe even in the e-book form) so you could read it for free.  If your library doesn't own the book but subscribes to the Link Plus service, it could order the book for you from a participating library that does carry it.  None of the 3 libraries that I use has this book, but 7 libraries in the San Francisco Bay area offer it via Link Plus. 

[AuntiePam]

I'll try for an inter-library loan -- thanks, good idea! 

Amazon had a book about Fox, not by Rode, but maybe it's good, and it was free

I'm not on Twitter but Googling Alan Rode brought up his twitter feed.  Looks like he'd be a good one to follow, for old movie fans.

[AuntiePam]

Reading The Philadelphian didn't shed any light on the major question I had following the movie: What was wrong with Adam West's character that he couldn't consummate his marriage to Tony's mother?  In the book, he tells her to take off her clothes and get in the bed.  The bedroom door closes on them, and the next thing we know, they've both left the hotel -- him in his car and her walking the streets. 

There are some big changes from the book and they're puzzling.  I can't see any reason for them.  The book spent a lot more time with Tony's mother and grandmother, who in my opinion are more interesting characters than Tony.  Book Tony was a bit more perfect than Movie Tony.  Book Tony didn't sneak around and take a job from Donetti, and his only misstep was something he did as a teenager, and that was to protect his mother, so no shine off the halo. 

Some parts of the book are almost verbatim in the movie -- how Joan's father convinced Tony to wait for marriage, the way Tony squirmed out of having sex with Mrs. Wharton, how Tony handled things with the wealthy elderly widow.

The book would make an excellent mini-series, along the lines of Rich Man, Poor Man and The Thorn Birds. 

[ratgirlagogo]

On 5/25/2019 at 5:18 PM, fairffaxx said:

Your library might have the book (maybe even in the e-book form) so you could read it for free.  If your library doesn't own the book but subscribes to the Link Plus service, it could order the book for you from a participating library that does carry it.  None of the 3 libraries that I use has this book, but 7 libraries in the San Francisco Bay area offer it via Link Plus. 

Interlibrary loan is always worth trying, as I said above. Most circulating libraries in the USA have some form of it and it's good that you remind people of it.   However just FYI the Link Plus service is limited to the Bay Area.

[Rinaldo]

Reviving its "Moviegoer" feature about books-into-movies (which I hope they'll keep going more actively again), Library of America invites Michael Sragow, to write about The Magnificent Ambersons most insightfully. It's a good preparation for the next time TCM shows it, whenever that may be.

[fairffaxx]

6 hours ago, ratgirlagogo said:

Interlibrary loan is always worth trying, as I said above. Most circulating libraries in the USA have some form of it and it's good that you remind people of it.   However just FYI the Link Plus service is limited to the Bay Area.

I didn't realize that Link Plus isn't nationwide -- when my city's library first subscribed to it long ago, the librarian told me it covered the whole country (maybe he just meant that it aspired to do so).  I've just looked it up and find that it includes only Calif, Nevada, and Ohio (according to Wikipedia -- I did once receive a rare book from a Nevada library through Link Plus, so it must be true).  Wherever it is, it's very helpful to those of us who can't afford to buy books and I've been grateful for it.

On topic:  This morning, TCM has been showing the British anthology movies based on Somerset Maugham stories -- "Quartet" (1948), "Trio" (1950), "Encore" (1951) -- followed by the American film "O'Henry's Full House" (1952).   Nice to see such good authors so well presented. 

[Charlie Baker]

Last night was Truffaut themed--with the angle of on screen appearances.  First was Spielberg's Close Encounters, then his own, lovely and delicious ode to film making, Day for Night, where he cast himself as the director of the movie within the movie.  In between was a more obscure film which I hadn't seen, The Green Room.  He took on the demanding central role in this--a man who is obsessive about remembering and commemorating his loved ones who have passed on.  It doesn't completely work, or cohere too well storywise,  But the cinematography (Nestor Almendros) is lovely and there are some very strong moments and an overall haunting feel to it--of course, light entertainment it is not. 

ETA: It was actually FRIDAY night--I watched last night.

Edited June 2, 2019 by Charlie Baker

[Neko]

So, I started watching YouTube clips from every Academy Award winning Best Actor/Best Actress performance, from 1929 to the present, and it has given me a crash course on Old Hollywood acting/movies.  Before this, I had only seen a handful of old movies; they were not staples in the house when I was growing up, and I had no clue who some of these people were.  I have a few random thoughts about what I've seen, so far...

1. Am I alone in thinking Mary Pickford was a very mechanical actress?  I know she was one of the biggest stars of her day, but after watching clips from Coquette, I can't warm to her.  She's very by-the-numbers, to me.

2. I don't get the love for Luise Rainer, either.  She has very sad looking eyes, and she looks down at her feet a lot, but is that really acting?  I'm not sure she was deserving of two Academy Awards, especially since she played a Chinese woman, for one of her roles.  I know the world was very different back then, but that just doesn't sit right, with me.

3. Ginger Rogers is a surprisingly good dramatic actress.  I had no idea she did anything beyond dance with Fred Astaire, let alone win an Oscar.

4. Am I weird for having a huge crush on James Stewart?  I just watched a ton of clips from The Philadelphia Story, and his chemistry with Katharine Hepburn is sizzling.  He always struck me as a pretty dorky guy, but there is something about him that has me swooning.  I wasn't expecting that, lol.

5. Another star I just don't get the appeal for is Gary Cooper.  He's rugged and handsome, sure, but he's incredibly boring, to me.  Is it a generational thing? (I'm in my 30's).

6. I think, if I had to choose between Joan Fontaine and Olivia de Haviland...I would choose Joan.  I don't know, I just like her, better.

7. If all that crap about Joan Crawford abusing her kids is true, she was a terrible person, but she was a phenomenal actress.  I couldn't take my eyes off her while watching the clips from Mildred Pierce.  The actress who plays her daughter is very good, too.  I wanted to slap her, which makes my opening comment for this one kind of funny.

8. Did Clark Gable and Norma Shearer have an affair, in real life?  After watching their scenes from A Free Soul, I can't help but wonder.  There is some serious eye sex going on, here.  Also, Clark Gable is, and always will be, one of the most handsome, charming men I have ever seen on a movie screen (er, laptop).

Anyway, those are my random thoughts.  I don't know exactly why I started doing this...I looked up Katharine Hepburn, and then I realized I didn't know anything about her or her career, so I began this little project.  I am still a complete novice when it comes to old movies, so I'm wondering if you guys have any recommendations.  Clearly, you all know what you're talking about. 😉

[ruby24]

I would recommend two films- The Lady Eve (1941) and The Thin Man (1934). Two of my favorites of all time and movies that I always recommend to people who are starting out on older films.

Interesting that you think that about The Philadelphia Story. I've always felt the same way about that movie- that Katharine Hepburn and Jimmy Stewart had sizzling chemistry and were the characters who should have ended up together in that story. Although it might even be something about the way that play is written, because I feel the same way about the remake, High Society. That the Grace Kelly and Frank Sinatra characters are the ones who should be together in the end.

[Neko]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

Interesting that you think that about The Philadelphia Story. I've always felt the same way about that movie- that Katharine Hepburn and Jimmy Stewart had sizzling chemistry and were the characters who should have ended up together in that story.

They don't end up, together? LOL

[Milburn Stone]

Has anyone else noticed that Alicia Malone is sounding more American? She's hitting most of her "r"s hard now, which she didn't when she first started at TCM. (E.g., what she used to pronounce closer to "Wahnah Brothahs" now comes out "Warner Brothers.") I've always liked her, and still do, but I found her original voice more charming and I can't for the life of me understand why she feels she needs to adapt it for American ears. Is it just living here that has made the process happen unconsciously for her, or is she trying for it, and if so, is it because she wants to do it or because someone told her to do it?

Edited June 4, 2019 by Milburn Stone

[Charlie Baker]

Welcome to this world, Shakma!

Of course I love ruby24's recommendations--and they may be gateways to more from two of my absolute favorite actresses, Barbara Stanwyck and Myrna Loy.

For more Katharine Hepburn, try Holiday, based on another play by Phillip Barry, who wrote Philadelphia Story, Adam's Rib, my favorite teaming of hers with Spencer Tracy, and The African Queen.

As for James Stewart, maybe his Hitchcock films, Rear Window and Vertigo, which go deeper than that aw shucks image you mention.

[Neko]

3 hours ago, Charlie Baker said:

Welcome to this world, Shakma!

Of course I love ruby24's recommendations--and they may be gateways to more from two of my absolute favorite actresses, Barbara Stanwyck and Myrna Loy.

For more Katharine Hepburn, try Holiday, based on another play by Phillip Barry, who wrote Philadelphia Story, Adam's Rib, my favorite teaming of hers with Spencer Tracy, and The African Queen.

As for James Stewart, maybe his Hitchcock films, Rear Window and Vertigo, which go deeper than that aw shucks image you mention.

Thank you both, for your suggestions.  Much appreciated. 🙂

[ruby24]

Oh yeah, Rear Window is an excellent starter film. I defy anyone not to get pulled into that movie. That was one of my starter films when I was a kid.

[Rinaldo]

Welcome, @Shakma! I'll offer some replies on some of your points, and hope you'll take it in the spirit of an ongoing conversation among fellow movie-lovers.

18 hours ago, Shakma said:

Am I alone in thinking Mary Pickford was a very mechanical actress? ... I don't get the love for Luise Rainer, either.  She has very sad looking eyes, and she looks down at her feet a lot, but is that really acting?

I don't think you'll get stir up much outrage on either of those points. Styles and audience acceptances do change over the decades, and some actors' work survives the change (seems more timeless) than others. I can think of silent and early-sound actresses whose acting still "works" for the present-day eye: Lillian Gish, Greta Garbo, even Louise Brooks in her way. But Pickford maybe doesn't, and Rainer seems to have specialized in effects that meant a lot then and maybe less now. Still, I would suggest caution on two points: One is that it's dangerous to call a famous performer's work "not acting" when it was clearly once praised as such; there are many approaches to acting, and it can happen that with increased experience in watching movies far removed from our time, one may come to understand how to "read" and enjoy other kinds of acting. I know it's happened for me. The other is the changes in tolerance for actors playing characters of other races (I'm talking about sincere attempts, not caricature). Each of us has to decide how to feel about such things in old movies. I generally don't love to see it, but I take it case by case, and I admired how Ava DuVernay handled it last Saturday when introducing West Side Story, one of her favorite movies. When the subject of Natalie Wood playing Puerto Rican was raised, she simply said "We wouldn't do that now," but went on to exclaim about how she loved the performance.

18 hours ago, Shakma said:

Ginger Rogers is a surprisingly good dramatic actress. ... Another star I just don't get the appeal for is Gary Cooper.  He's rugged and handsome, sure, but he's incredibly boring, to me.  Is it a generational thing? ...

Ginger Rogers was indeed capable of fine dramatic performances. If you continue to explore her movies, you'll find that she could get very weird at times too, trying out different voices and impossible hairstyles. It could get to be kind of a grab bag what she was going to come up with this time, but at her best (and right to the end of her film career) she could be excellent.

With Gary Cooper (as with many another), I think it's more of an individual thing; some adore him, some find little in him. Look for his earlier movies, where he was indeed almost unearthly handsome. Charles Laughton (famous for his highly creative and almost flamboyant acting, each role thoroughly differentiated from the last) considered Cooper the best actor he worked with in movies. That's surprising, of course, because they seem to be opposites, but then most of us most admire the qualities we ourselves lack. And he recognized that Cooper had the gift of conveying minute shifts in thought simply by "being" in front of the camera without seeming to "do" anything.

Well, those are some thoughts at probably too great length, but it's always fun to try to figure this stuff out.

[mariah23]

Welcome SHAKMA!

I'll answer your eighth question.  Norma Shearer and Clark Gable did not have an affair on the set of A Free Soul.  Shearer was married to Irving Thalberg, the head of production at MGM.

She apparently did not wear any underwear during the love scenes, according to Gable.

I'm surprised no one has recommended The Lion in Winter to you!  Katharine Hepburn is amazing as Eleanor of Aquitaine.  She really said these lines.

[tennisgurl]

@Shakma Welcome to the wild, wonderful world of classic film!

If your interested in James Stewart, I would check out The Shop Around the Corner, he is super charming and its a really sweet funny movie from 1940. Its a good movie to start with if your just starting out with older films. 

Speaking of romantic comedy's, if you like Clark Gable I would recommend It Happened One Night. Clark Gable is ridiculously charming and the movie is both a funny proto romcom, its also an interesting slice of life of the Great Depression. 

Silent film acting can be kind of off-putting to a modern audience, especially if your not used to it, mostly because silent movies were a very different medium than talkies, and the acting style was often more theatrical, with people either going super over the top big or very minimalist and small. If your interested in dipping your toes in silent film, you might enjoy Pandora's Box with Louise Brooks. She is super compelling and has this amazing presence in all of her scenes, and her acting style reads quite modern, even without speaking. 

Hope this helps!

[Neko]

Thanks again, guys.  I'll be sure to check out The Shop Around the Corner, and It Happened One Night.  Maybe I'll make it a double feature. 🙂

Quote

Still, I would suggest caution on two points: One is that it's dangerous to call a famous performer's work "not acting" when it was clearly once praised as such; there are many approaches to acting, and it can happen that with increased experience in watching movies far removed from our time, one may come to understand how to "read" and enjoy other kinds of acting. I know it's happened for me. The other is the changes in tolerance for actors playing characters of other races (I'm talking about sincere attempts, not caricature). Each of us has to decide how to feel about such things in old movies. I generally don't love to see it, but I take it case by case, and I admired how Ava DuVernay handled it last Saturday when introducing West Side Story, one of her favorite movies. When the subject of Natalie Wood playing Puerto Rican was raised, she simply said "We wouldn't do that now," but went on to exclaim about how she loved the performance.

Sorry, I didn't mean to devalue anyone's hard work, even if I don't understand their appeal.  I should have chosen my words better.

[Rinaldo]

Oh, don't be concerned about that -- we've all done it. (And sometimes I'll still do it, in certain cases; I can be pretty snarky about the Luise Rainer case myself!) But once one has caught the older-movie bug, as with any area of interest, it's a lifelong process of continuing to discover more and developing one's reactions. That's the fun!

I'll certainly second the recommendation for The Shop Around the Corner! It's a classic story, beautifully told, with James Stewart and Margaret Sullavan at their most appealing. (It's also a sturdy story framework, which has been remade on film twice and turned into one of the greatest of stage musicals.)

A page or two back I shared a book discovery, which I'll repeat here: The Art of American Screen Acting, 1912-1960, by Dan Callahan. Callahan writes about acting better than pretty much anybody I know of, and helps me see and understand more. (He's also a lot of fun, and he has his own biases, which he parades without embarrassment: for instance, although he devotes a chapter to John Barrymore, he refers to his brother only as "the dread Lionel"). He has chapters about 10 men and 10 women from this period (omitting Barbara Stanwyck, whom he wrote a whole book about), and I go back to this e-book often to lean more about what I can look for and enjoy.

[Charlie Baker]

For D Day, a New York Times column by Ben Mankiewicz on how war movies helped veterans, including his own father, to open up about their war experiences.

Ben M on War Movies

[Milburn Stone]

On 6/4/2019 at 6:08 PM, Rinaldo said:

The other is the changes in tolerance for actors playing characters of other races (I'm talking about sincere attempts, not caricature). Each of us has to decide how to feel about such things in old movies. I generally don't love to see it, but I take it case by case, and I admired how Ava DuVernay handled it last Saturday when introducing West Side Story, one of her favorite movies. When the subject of Natalie Wood playing Puerto Rican was raised, she simply said "We wouldn't do that now," but went on to exclaim about how she loved the performance.

It was done so much in the old days, and, to add to the complexity of the whole matter and how we should feel about it, I think that sometimes it was done consciously to avoid offense to the ethnic group portrayed. Jewish actors played Italian gangsters, Italian and other actors played Jewish characters, and on and on. No doubt sometimes the casting decision was made in order to "tamp down" the ethnicity of the character so as to make him or her more palatable to an imagined Middle America, but sometimes I feel like it was done to make the portrayal more acceptable to members of the ethnic group portrayed. Like, the conversation was, "If we cast an Italian actor as this implicitly Italian gangster, are we saying that all Italians are gangsters? If we make the ethnicity of this skinflint character Jewish, knowing he's being played by a Jewish actor, are we saying that all Jews are skinflints? We don't want to do that." It's complicated.

Edited June 7, 2019 by Milburn Stone

[Tom Holmberg]

TCM Alert: TCM will be playing "The 5000 Fingers of Dr. T" on Wednesday, June 12 @ 11:45 AM (ET). Dr. Seuss' surrealistic musical fantasy about an evil piano teacher. Worth watching if you've never seen it.

[Wiendish Fitch]

2 hours ago, Tom Holmberg said:

TCM Alert: TCM will be playing "The 5000 Fingers of Dr. T" on Wednesday, June 12 @ 11:45 AM (ET). Dr. Seuss' surrealistic musical fantasy about an evil piano teacher. Worth watching if you've never seen it.

That movie is weird and flawed as hell... and yet I still kinda love it.

[Rinaldo]

On 6/7/2019 at 9:21 AM, Tom Holmberg said:

TCM Alert: TCM will be playing "The 5000 Fingers of Dr. T" on Wednesday, June 12 @ 11:45 AM (ET). Dr. Seuss' surrealistic musical fantasy about an evil piano teacher... 

This is one of the movies covered in Lost Films of the Fifties, by Douglas Brode. He's not dealing with films that are officially "lost" (no copies survive), but rather the movies that were a big deal in their own time but are never talked about or barely remembered now. I do indeed recall that The 5,000 Fingers of Dr. T was a major release, and I was taken to one of the big Chicago movie palaces to see it, as a special treat. I couldn't really follow the story, but that was pretty standard for me at that age.

I've since discovered the twisted history of the film -- that previews were so disastrous, it was drastically shortened, eliminating several subplots and more than half the songs; the deleted material doesn't survive except for audio for the songs. I'm especially intrigued by the Wikipedia statement "One song (The Dungeons Song) however, was deleted entirly and was since made Illegal." Just how is a song made illegal? If you sing it at home, do the authorities show up and arrest you?

Anyway, it's probably the kind of movie that works better for home viewing, with distractions available if wanted. I've enjoyed it under those circumstances.

[fairffaxx]

6 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

... I've since discovered the twisted history of the film  ["The 5000 Fingers of Dr. T"] -- that previews were so disastrous, it was drastically shortened, eliminating several subplots and more than half the songs; the deleted material doesn't survive except for audio for the songs. I'm especially intrigued by the Wikipedia statement "One song (The Dungeons Song) however, was deleted entirly and was since made Illegal." Just how is a song made illegal? If you sing it at home, do the authorities show up and arrest you? ...

You mean like Alton Brown's "food police", who show up in black helicopters hovering over his kitchen whenever he commits sins like frying?  Scary stuff....
 

[Tom Holmberg]

21 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

"One song (The Dungeons Song) however, was deleted entirly and was since made Illegal."

[SunnyBeBe]

Man, I watched a movie that I had not even thought about in many years.  I don't think that I ever actually watched the movie.  It came out before I was born. Talk about coincidences!  Yesterday, I was cleaning the kitchen and started humming a song from my childhood. My grandmother used to sing it to me.  "Que Sera Sera." It's from the soundtrack of Don't Eat the Daisies, staring Doris Day.  THEN, in the afternoon, the movie came on TWC!  So bizarre.  

Anyway, in that movie they portray the youngest child as a wild child and keep him locked in a cage!!!  I found this very disturbing.  Did no one speak out against it years ago?  Odd......

Edited June 10, 2019 by SunnyBeBe

[Rinaldo]

57 minutes ago, SunnyBeBe said:

"Que Sera Sera." It's from the soundtrack of Don't Eat the Daisies, staring Doris Day. 

@SunnyBeBe, just FYI: "Que Sera Sera" is indeed sung in Don't Eat the Daisies, but its original source (when it won the Academy Award for original song) was in another Doris Day movie, the Hitchcock film The Man Who Knew Too Much. It comes around on TCM from time to time and is worth seeing (though it too has questionable moments).

[SunnyBeBe]

Thank you for that info.  I have good memories of my grandmother singing songs like to me.  This movie did cause me to look up the life of Doris Day.  I was surprised. 

[Suzn]

On 6/3/2019 at 11:21 PM, Shakma said:

So, I started watching YouTube clips from every Academy Award winning Best Actor/Best Actress performance, from 1929 to the present, and it has given me a crash course on Old Hollywood acting/movies.  Before this, I had only seen a handful of old movies; they were not staples in the house when I was growing up, and I had no clue who some of these people were.  I have a few random thoughts about what I've seen, so far...

1. Am I alone in thinking Mary Pickford was a very mechanical actress?  I know she was one of the biggest stars of her day, but after watching clips from Coquette, I can't warm to her.  She's very by-the-numbers, to me.

2. I don't get the love for Luise Rainer, either.  She has very sad looking eyes, and she looks down at her feet a lot, but is that really acting?  I'm not sure she was deserving of two Academy Awards, especially since she played a Chinese woman, for one of her roles.  I know the world was very different back then, but that just doesn't sit right, with me.

3. Ginger Rogers is a surprisingly good dramatic actress.  I had no idea she did anything beyond dance with Fred Astaire, let alone win an Oscar.

4. Am I weird for having a huge crush on James Stewart?  I just watched a ton of clips from The Philadelphia Story, and his chemistry with Katharine Hepburn is sizzling.  He always struck me as a pretty dorky guy, but there is something about him that has me swooning.  I wasn't expecting that, lol.

5. Another star I just don't get the appeal for is Gary Cooper.  He's rugged and handsome, sure, but he's incredibly boring, to me.  Is it a generational thing? (I'm in my 30's).

6. I think, if I had to choose between Joan Fontaine and Olivia de Haviland...I would choose Joan.  I don't know, I just like her, better.

7. If all that crap about Joan Crawford abusing her kids is true, she was a terrible person, but she was a phenomenal actress.  I couldn't take my eyes off her while watching the clips from Mildred Pierce.  The actress who plays her daughter is very good, too.  I wanted to slap her, which makes my opening comment for this one kind of funny.

8. Did Clark Gable and Norma Shearer have an affair, in real life?  After watching their scenes from A Free Soul, I can't help but wonder.  There is some serious eye sex going on, here.  Also, Clark Gable is, and always will be, one of the most handsome, charming men I have ever seen on a movie screen (er, laptop).

Anyway, those are my random thoughts.  I don't know exactly why I started doing this...I looked up Katharine Hepburn, and then I realized I didn't know anything about her or her career, so I began this little project.  I am still a complete novice when it comes to old movies, so I'm wondering if you guys have any recommendations.  Clearly, you all know what you're talking about. 😉

I find your observations interesting as someone newly learning about old movies.  It's a fresh prospective.

Mary Pickford - I don't see what made her a big star.  Certainly styles change and I'm very tolerant of acting styles of the past, but I think sometimes a work or a talent simply doesn't hold up in later years.

Luise Rainer - I have to say she seems very limited to me.

Ginger Rogers - I am very fond of her in Kitty Foyle; it was good match of role to actor.  She was quite good in Stage Door too,  I don't think she had a wide range and could seem peculiar in some roles, but she was great in those that fit her.

James Stewart - He and Katherine Hepburn were electric in The Philadelphia Story.  I think Cary Grant got left in the dust in that one.

Gary Cooper -  He had very little appeal to me either.  He could occasionally loosen up and be a little fun - in that category would be Ball of Fire.  Of course Barbara Stanwick could warm up anyone.

Joan Fontaine and Olivia de Haviland - Olivia edges out Joan slightly because of my fondness for the character Melanie in Gone With the Wind, but I love the movie Rebecca, so it's a very close call. 

Joan Crawford - I not a big fan but she certainly was splendid in Mildred Pierce.  She was excellent in The Women.

Recommendations:  The Women, Harvey, Camille, Grand Hotel, Sunset Boulevard, All About Eve, Dodsworth,  And lesser remembered people worth looking for:  Ruth Chatterton, Kay Francis, Barbara Stanwick (not forgotten, but I don't think she ever won an Oscar).

[Wiendish Fitch]

34 minutes ago, Suzn said:

I find your observations interesting as someone newly learning about old movies.  It's a fresh prospective.

Mary Pickford - I don't see what made her a big star.  Certainly styles change and I'm very tolerant of acting styles of the past, but I think sometimes a work or a talent simply doesn't hold up in later years.

Luise Rainer - I have to say she seems very limited to me.

Ginger Rogers - I am very fond of her in Kitty Foyle; it was good match of role to actor.  She was quite good in Stage Door too,  I don't think she had a wide range and could seem peculiar in some roles, but she was great in those that fit her.

James Stewart - He and Katherine Hepburn were electric in The Philadelphia Story.  I think Cary Grant got left in the dust in that one.

Gary Cooper -  He had very little appeal to me either.  He could occasionally loosen up and be a little fun - in that category would be Ball of Fire.  Of course Barbara Stanwick could warm up anyone.

Joan Fontaine and Olivia de Haviland - Olivia edges out Joan slightly because of my fondness for the character Melanie in Gone With the Wind, but I love the movie Rebecca, so it's a very close call. 

Joan Crawford - I not a big fan but she certainly was splendid in Mildred Pierce.  She was excellent in The Women.

Recommendations:  The Women, Harvey, Camille, Grand Hotel, Sunset Boulevard, All About Eve, Dodsworth,  And lesser remembered people worth looking for:  Ruth Chatterton, Kay Francis, Barbara Stanwick (not forgotten, but I don't think she ever won an Oscar).

Mary Pickford: I've only seen one of her movies (Little Lord Fauntleroy... it was fine), but I think she deserves to be remembered for her contributions to film. She was the first woman in Hollywood to become a millionaire, she co-founded United Artists, and, oh, yeah, she also co-founded the Academy Awards! Awesome actress? Hardly. Fantastic trailblazer? Heck yeah!

Luise Rainer: Hey, anyone who beautifully tells off Louis B. Mayer and outlives him by nearly 60 years deserves all my love and respect.

James Stewart: Love him in Rear Window and Vertigo. I think I like his jerkier roles (very unpopular opinion).

Ginger Rogers: Damned underrated. Yeah, she won an Oscar for Kitty Foyle (a merely okay film), but I still feel she doesn't get the credit she deserves as a comedic talent, dramatic actress, screen presence, and a legitimate triple threat.

Gary Cooper and Joan Crawford: They're usually not my favorites, but they are in movies I just love, so I can't rag on them too much. And I agree on the aforementioned Crawford films, they're my favorites of hers, too!

Olivia trumps Joan every time, IMO. Olivia is always wonderful, even in stinkers (she was in The Swarm and emerged with her dignity intact). I've only ever liked Joan in Rebecca (all right, I'll admit, Born to be Bad is a guilty pleasure).

Edited June 10, 2019 by Wiendish Fitch

[Suzn]

18 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Mary Pickford: I've only seen one of her movies (Little Lord Fauntleroy... it was fine), but I think she deserves to be remembered for her contributions to film. She was the first woman in Hollywood to become a millionaire, she co-founded United Artists, and, oh, yeah, she also co-founded the Academy Awards! Awesome actress? Hardly. Fantastic trailblazer? Heck yeah!

Luise Rainer: Hey, anyone who beautifully tells off Louis B. Mayer and outlives him by nearly 60 years deserves all my love and respect.

James Stewart: Love him in Rear Window and Vertigo. I think I like his jerkier roles (very unpopular opinion).

Ginger Rogers: Damned underrated. Yeah, she won an Oscar for Kitty Foyle (a merely okay film), but I still feel she doesn't get the credit she deserves as a comedic talent, dramatic actress, screen presence, and a legitimate triple threat.

Gary Cooper and Joan Crawford: They're usually not my favorites, but they are in movies I just love, so I can't rag on them too much. And I agree on the aforementioned Crawford films, they're my favorites of hers, too!

Olivia trumps Joan every time, IMO. Olivia is always wonderful, even in stinkers (she was in The Swarm and emerged with her dignity intact). I've only ever liked Joan in Rebecca (all right, I'll admit, Born to be Bad is a guilty pleasure).

Yes, credit to Mary Pickford for those things!

Rear Window and Vertigo - I agree about these, but I never thought of him as a "jerk" exactly - you may be right though. 

I think I may be blinded by my love of Rebecca, because I don't really think much of other Joan Fontaine roles.

[Bastet]

48 minutes ago, Suzn said:

James Stewart - He and Katherine Hepburn were electric in The Philadelphia Story.  I think Cary Grant got left in the dust in that one.

Katharine Hepburn is my favorite of Cary Grant's movie partners (Bringing Up Baby and Holiday are two of my favorite films) and they do sparkle for me here as always, but Dexter was a shit husband Tracy should not have re-married, and pretty much everyone was so awful to her in the film, that I, too, am more taken by her chemistry with Jimmy Stewart.  He works very well with Ruth Hussey and Cary Grant, too.  I don't think I ever dislike Stewart's acting in a film, but I'm not always captivated by him.  I am in The Philadelphia Story, though; he's just terrific all around in this performance.

When a friend who is also a fan of the film in spite of itself calls me, she opens with, "This is the voice of doom calling," and I do the same when I call her (and then the other mutters "one of the servants has been at the sherry again").  It's quite a quotable film; I also use "I'm going crazy.  I'm standing here, solidly, on my own two hands and going crazy" when things take a turn toward the surreal and "This is one of those days that the pages of history teach us are best spent lying in bed" when I'm hung over.

[Milburn Stone]

7 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

@SunnyBeBe, just FYI: "Que Sera Sera" is indeed sung in Don't Eat the Daisies, but its original source (when it won the Academy Award for original song) was in another Doris Day movie, the Hitchcock film The Man Who Knew Too Much. It comes around on TCM from time to time and is worth seeing (though it too has questionable moments).

The only questionable moment that comes to my mind is Jimmy Stewart beneficently sedating Doris Day against her will. (Fortunately not because he had designs on her.) But this was such a "trope" of films and TV at the time and well after--one never thought to question the beneficence of the kindly doctor who relieved his patient's anxiety--that even now it raises only the quietest of protests in my psyche.

[Rinaldo]

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

The only questionable moment that comes to my mind is Jimmy Stewart beneficently sedating Doris Day against her will.

That's just what I was thinking of. The Man Who Knows Best sedating his wife is one of those things one comes across; it doesn't spoil the movie or anything, but I have a flash of "That's icky" before moving on. The other moment in The Man Who Knew Too Much is more structural: for the sake of a final movie-ending anticlimactic gag that Hitchcock sometimes liked ("Sorry we're late, we had to pick up Hank"), we're supposed to believe that as our two heroes sleuthed around the city, foiled an assassination, attended a late soirée, and recovered their kidnapped son, their guests just sat around obediently without hosts and did nothing for hours and hours. Again, doesn't wreck the picture at all, but c'mon.

The discussion of various stars has been fascinating. It's always great to get other people's perspectives.

To repeat myself, for me James Stewart has his supreme moment in The Shop Around the Corner (though I agree he's very likable in The Philadelphia Story). The aw-shucks dithering persona he affected as his career progressed never appealed to me the way it must have for audiences at the time -- but he once used it to characterful purpose in Anatomy of a Murder.

I'll agree with those who found Joan Fontaine just right in Rebecca, and seldom thereafter (when I first saw Suspicion, I was put off by what seemed amateurish over-emoting, and was later astonished to find it had won her an Oscar). But I'll put in a word for a little-seen late role, adapted from a James M. Barrie play, Darling, How Could You?, in which she finds just the right vein of stylized comedy for this tricky piece of whimsy. By contrast, I think Olivia de Havilland gave several memorable performance. I'm not a big Gone with the Wind fan, but I'd single out two fine pieces of work for director Mitchell Leisen: her virginal but determined teacher in Hold Back the Dawn, and her intelligently varied and nuanced version of a Madame X character ("She had a child out of wedlock! and she gave him up! and years later, she met him again without his knowing her!") in To Each His Own. Plus, for William Wyler, a lovely piece of work in The Heiress.

[Milburn Stone]

10 hours ago, Rinaldo said:

That's just what I was thinking of. The Man Who Knows Best sedating his wife is one of those things one comes across; it doesn't spoil the movie or anything, but I have a flash of "That's icky" before moving on. The other moment in The Man Who Knew Too Much is more structural: for the sake of a final movie-ending anticlimactic gag that Hitchcock sometimes liked ("Sorry we're late, we had to pick up Hank"), we're supposed to believe that as our two heroes sleuthed around the city, foiled an assassination, attended a late soirée, and recovered their kidnapped son, their guests just sat around obediently without hosts and did nothing for hours and hours. Again, doesn't wreck the picture at all, but c'mon.

I get you on the sedating (although I think my flash of "that's icky" is the merest flicker, as I said--and that, only because we "know better now"), but as for the end gag, I think the very absurdity of it makes it delightful. (And that Hitchcock knew the audience would find it utterly absurd, and be tickled pink because of, not despite, the absurdity.) After we've been put through the wringer of that story, any ending less ridiculous might not get the job done.

Edited June 11, 2019 by Milburn Stone

[Suzn]

4 hours ago, Bastet said:

Katharine Hepburn is my favorite of Cary Grant's movie partners (Bringing Up Baby and Holiday are two of my favorite films) and they do sparkle for me here as always, but Dexter was a shit husband Tracy should not have re-married...I don't think I ever dislike Stewart's acting in a film, but I'm not always captivated by him.  I am in The Philadelphia Story, though; he's just terrific all around in this performance.

When a friend who is also a fan of the film in spite of itself calls me, she opens with, "This is the voice of doom calling," and I do the same when I call her (and then the other mutters "one of the servants has been at the sherry again"). 

That is so true about Dexter.  He's a shit and he's not much fun.

I love playing with the quotes that way!

1 hour ago, Rinaldo said:

That's just what I was thinking of. The Man Who Knows Best sedating his wife is one of those things one comes across; it doesn't spoil the movie or anything, but I have a flash of "That's icky" before moving on. The other moment in The Man Who Knew Too Much is more structural: for the sake of a final movie-ending anticlimactic gag that Hitchcock sometimes liked ("Sorry we're late, we had to pick up Hank"), we're supposed to believe that as our two heroes sleuthed around the city, foiled an assassination, attended a late soirée, and recovered their kidnapped son, their guests just sat around obediently without hosts and did nothing for hours and hours. Again, doesn't wreck the picture at all, but c'mon....

To repeat myself, for me James Stewart has his supreme moment in The Shop Around the Corner (though I agree he's very likable in The Philadelphia Story). The aw-shucks dithering persona he affected as his career progressed never appealed to me the way it must have for audiences at the time -- but he once used it to characterful purpose in Anatomy of a Murder.

I'll agree with those who found Joan Fontaine just right in Rebecca, and seldom thereafter (when I first saw Suspicion, I was put off by what seemed amateurish over-emoting, and was later astonished to find it had won her an Oscar). But I'll put in a word for a little-seen late role, adapted from a James M. Barrie play, Darling, How Could You?, in which she finds just the right vein of stylized comedy for this tricky piece of whimsy. By contrast, I think Olivia de Havilland gave several memorable performance. I'm not a big Gone with the Wind fan, but I'd single out two fine pieces of work for director Mitchell Leisen: her virginal but determined teacher in Hold Back the Dawn, and her intelligently varied and nuanced version of a Madame X character ("She had a child out of wedlock! and she gave him up! and years later, she met him again without his knowing her!") in To Each His Own. Plus, for William Wyler, a lovely piece of work in The Heiress.

I'm sorry to say that I don't care for The Shop Around the Corner.  Not the fault of Jimmy Stewart at all.  The Philadelphia Story sparkles with all those quotable lines, as has been noted, and Jimmy Stewart runs with them.

I think Joan Fontaine is fine in Suspicion, but I have a problem or two with the movie.  I think it was supposed to end differently with Cary Grant being a killer and maybe it would have been a better movie with that ending.

I'm happy to see mention of To Each His Own.  I don't usually have patience with this storyline that has been done so often.  This works thanks to Olivia de Havilland. She's sad but not a pathetic martyr.

1 hour ago, Milburn Stone said:

I get you on the sedating (although I think my flash of "that's icky" is the merest flicker, as I said--and that, only because we "know better now"), but as for the end gag, I think the very absurdity of it makes it delightful. (And that Hitchcock knew the audience would find it utterly absurd, and be tickled pink.) After we've been put through the wringer of that story, any ending less ridiculous might not get the job done.

There are Hitchcock movies that are just ruined if you pull that loose thread of a gap in logic.  As much as I've always loved Rear Window, it is harder to enjoy when I'm yelling at the screen the "whys" and "hows".

[Tom Holmberg]

A good group of films tonight in TCM's 1969 theme on Tues.  "Medium Cool" is a somewhat forgotten film, very evocative of its time, shot during the Chicago Convention police riot. "The Wild Bunch," of course (better than "Butch Cassidy"). "Fellini's Satyricon" is an oddball film, but I sort of like it. Worth watching at least once.  Unfortunately they showed "Butch Cassidy" less than a month ago, I believe (if they knew they were playing it in this series, why show it so soon before? It just bugs me.) Never seen "Angel, Angel, Down We Go."

[Rinaldo]

That is indeed an odd assembly, but 1969 was my college graduation year (the possibility of Vietnam service looming), so the movies critiquing (in however shallow a way sometimes) the current world struck a chord with me at the time.

Butch Cassidy of course was not such a film, being a big Hollywood entertainment (albeit with hip injections of contemporary attitude from William Goldman and Burt Bacharach), and I won't put it down for that. As to repeat showings on TCM, that's an ongoing mystery that we've wondered about here before, and it's hard for us outsiders to know why it happens in a particular case. I believe that sometimes obtaining access to show a movie (that the network doesn't own) includes X many additional airings that have to get used up. But I don't pretend to any inside knowledge. Of course a real look at the 1969 movies that shook things up would include Easy Rider, Midnight Cowboy, and Alice's Restaurant.

Medium Cool is memorable in a couple of ways for me: I was in Chicago (actually in the city, though I was attending an outdoor classical concert) while those police riots were going on; and the movie provided the first frontal male nudity in a Hollywood picture (thank you, Robert Forster).

Angel, Angel, Down We Go ... now that's an interesting choice to feature, it being a truly forgotten oddity from American International. But definitely emblematic of its time: one old-time movie star who seems to have lost a bet (Jennifer Jones), surrounded by artifacts of the era: Jordan Christopher, Holly Near, Roddy McDowell, Lou Rawls. Leonard Maltin describes it as "awesomely dated." (I recently watched another from the same year on the same pattern, The Big Cube, in which Lana Turner is psychedelically paired with George Chakiris.)

----

Speaking of Mr. Maltin, we have another "Disney Vault" coming up on the 25th, with some seldom-shown live-action features: The Moon-Spinners, The Littlest Horse Thieves, The North Avenue Irregulars, Emil and the Detectives, and Never a Dull Moment.

[voiceover]

Ahhhh...Butch&Sundance!  I loved it from the first; especially loved Newman&Redford together (even more so a few years later when they reteamed with George Roy Hill for The Sting...I remember bursting into tears five moments before the end of that film, thinking "Oh no!!! Not again!").

Its appeal has dimmed over the years -- partly because other films (especially Westerns) rose up to replace it, partly because it's just one of those things that's ...owwwwwwch...not as good as I remembered.  

There are moments that haven't dimmed.  All of them feature the two men revisiting the same argument.  And, of course, that Cliff-Jumping Scene.  

"Iconic" is a word that has been squeezed of impact, but I'd still drag it out to describe that few seconds of film ("...the **fall'll probably kill ya!")

I bought the screenplay when it came out (if memory serves, from Scholastic Books!).  William Goldman wrote the preface to his own script.  I remember a part of it (I don't have the copy anymore because of course I don't): when he admitted that the Cliff-Jumping Scene was & forever would be what he'd be known for ("When I die, my New York Times obituary will read: 'Goldman, Dead at [insert age here]; Wrote Cliff-Jumping Scene in Butch Cassidy' ").

And that ending!  I love it; I hate it; I dread it.  It's one for the ages.

*sigh*   I'm a sucker for a rogue.

[Rinaldo]

2 hours ago, voiceover said:

"When I die, my New York Times obituary will read: 'Goldman, Dead at [insert age here]; Wrote Cliff-Jumping Scene in Butch Cassidy' "

Yes, and some years later he amended the thought to "I'll be remembered for two things: Butch Cassidy and The Princess Bride." (And this was before the movie of the latter.)

[voiceover]

Liked the book.  The movie sucked.  I try and forget Goldman ever had anything to do with it.

[Milburn Stone]

On 6/11/2019 at 10:41 PM, Rinaldo said:

Yes, and some years later he amended the thought to "I'll be remembered for two things: Butch Cassidy and The Princess Bride." (And this was before the movie of the latter.)

This starts a train of thought. I caught roughly the last half of the movie last night, including the cliff-jumping scene, and was reminded how unusual the movie is for telling a Western story with a late-1960s sensibility. This goes well beyond the use of a contemporary Burt Bacharach score, to include Goldman's writing style, and the performances by Redford and Newman. I almost imagine the two actors on day one of the shoot giving performances that fit the usual "Western acting" mold, and George Roy Hill responding, "No, no, I want you to inflect the dialogue like it's happening in 1969." And then I thought, wow, that was pretty revolutionary. And then I thought, well, no, it has a definite predecessor: Cat Ballou. And then I wondered if Butch Cassidy, as we know it, would have existed had there been no Cat Ballou.

Edited June 13, 2019 by Milburn Stone