Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!

[legaleagle53]

Incidentally, here's another interview that Victoria did.  I love how she almost seems to channel Cruella herself.

 

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/17/once-upon-time-what-cruellas-happy-ending?hootPostID=5a2a2835ba13b5017710aee3ca08744d

 

Adam and Eddie, Cruella followed us home.  Can we keep her, pleeease?

[YaddaYadda]

Cruella is inadvertently working for the Wicked Witch. How would she feel if she found out she was doing her bidding?

She would not be happy, and someone’s head would have to roll. She’s nobody’s Pongo. You’ll get a real sense of what powers Cruella does actually wield in this episode as well. Up until now, I’m not sure we’ve seen a vast amount of her magic, and her strength, and the level of her villainy. You’ve had all her comedy and the fun and the fabulous, but now you’re going to see just how deep that evil runs.

 

Hmm, what?!?  Or should I saw WTF?!?

[legaleagle53]

Should I be worried now that they're somehow going to ruin the best villain they've had since Cora and Ingrid?

[Mathius]

Should I be worried now that they're somehow going to ruin the best villain they've had since Cora and Ingrid?

How so? This, unlike most stuff, is one of the things the show has actually done a good job setting up. For all her humor and sass, there has been a marked psychotically violent streak in Cruella: she threatened Rumple and Emma with a gun, she laid her car on railroad tracks in a sick game, she talked of possibly slitting Regina's throat. A reveal that she's actually an uber-evil baddie who is just really good at surprising that level of evil would make all those moments all the more poignant.

[legaleagle53]

Because it's this show and these writers.  And because the part in bold in YaddaYadda's post (that Cruella is inadvertently working for Zelena) is completely out of left field.

[Shanna Marie]

Maybe all they mean by "inadvertently working for the Wicked Witch" is that the stuff Cruella is doing to find the Author is going to end up playing into Zelena's agenda. It seems like Rumple ran into Zelena before he went to collect Ursula and Cruella, so that means he's already somewhat having to dance to Zelena's tune, and that then means that the others were indirectly working to Zelena's agenda.

[YaddaYadda]

How so? This, unlike most stuff, is one of the things the show has actually done a good job setting up. For all her humor and sass, there has been a marked psychotically violent streak in Cruella: she threatened Rumple and Emma with a gun, she laid her car on railroad tracks in a sick game, she talked of possibly slitting Regina's throat. A reveal that she's actually an uber-evil baddie who is just really good at surprising that level of evil would make all those moments all the more poignant.

 

I like that Victoria Smurfit sees her character just as she is, a sociopath, just like Elizabeth Mitchell did with her character.  She left a baby to die in the woods because she's a bad person and not mother material and now she kidnaps Henry.  

 

I'm really looking forward to Sunday now.  I wouldn't be surprised if Cruella is no more after this episode though.  Considering everything, she's going to have 3 women gunning for her because of their children.

Edited April 17, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[YaddaYadda]

sneak peek 3

 

I wanna smack Snow.  Hard!  She has zero faith in her daughter and thinks the reason Emma is the way she is is really because of the voodoo they pulled when she was a zygote.  

Edited April 17, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[kili]

I wanna smack Snow.

 

I want to smack Emma too. I'm sorry, but Snow and David are human. They made a really big mistake. I can see being upset about it, but you can't go around forgiving your BFF for burning your mother at the stake without even a second of being upset at her about it to continuing to harp on that same Mom for cursing what she thought was a dragon.

 

I agree that Snowing was wrong especially with our full knowledge of the situation, but I can't with this show continuously making ever Hero mistake unforgivable and every villain mistake insta-forgiven without them being held accountable at all (and mentioning their evil deeds makes you the evil one). Emma was grumpy with her parents when she found out, she was grumpy trecking through the woods during the night and now she's still ragging on them. This is like a lifetime to be mad in Storybrooke. LET IT GO.

 

How about you be mad at yourself Emma? You are the one who let a child be kidnapped by your BFF to be used as a pawn. Your BFF then did nothing to protect the child from being obliterated (turned into a man) and tortured. Gepetto should be following you around town and yelling at you. Or is Emma only concerned about children of villains?

 

And why does Emma expect her parents to give up clues about the Author? They didn't even know he was the Author when they met him for five seconds while they were helping him with his cart. Emma's the dumba$$ who let him out of the book without a plan. She has no business demanding somebody else find him.

 

Honestly, this show.

Edited April 17, 2015 by kili

[Emma]

I wanna smack Snow. Hard!

Yup. I have since Echo Caves. They could have Emma being bitchy to her for the next 4 seasons and it wouldn't be enough for me.

Better yet. I wish Emma could just disown her and be done with it.

I will never get over this show ruining that relationship.

[mjgchick]

I have to side eye Emma at some of this. Mostly because isn't her new BFF part of the reason why her parents did what they did? Or is this because Snow didn't really believe in Emma and that's what's hurting Emma? I'd be ok if it's because of that more than them sending baby egg to another realm. The problem is I don't trust the writers to try to redeem this relationship because they tend to think a hug and a kiss solves all The Charmings problems.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I want to smack Emma too. I'm sorry, but Snow and David are human. They made a really big mistake

The writers are drawing this out a little too much without any real development, if you ask me. It's been stuck at "Emma is ticked off at her parents and they just give lame excuses for it" for three episodes. It's like, yes Show - we get Emma's mad and Snowing is defensive. Of all the dumb stuff Snow and Charming have pulled, this is what sticks out. Nevermind that they let a murderous psychopath free to do more harm. Emma's BFF has hurt her way more than they ever have.

 

And Charming... that was not the only way to insure Emma turned out "good". How about responsible parenting? Ever tried that?

Edited April 17, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[FabulousTater]

I want to smack Emma too. I'm sorry, but Snow and David are human. They made a really big mistake. I can see being upset about it, but you can't go around forgiving your BFF for burning your mother at the stake without even a second of being upset at her about it to continuing to harp on that same Mom for cursing what she thought was a dragon.

Pffft. I love how people want to smack Emma for being justifiably angry at her parents for screwing around with her very nature at the expense of someone else, and literally in this sneak peek Snow said it was "worth it." Translation: I regret nothing! Ya, Emma how dare you be angry?! They screwed with your very nature to turn you into The Savior that has to live her life sacrificing for others, they did so at the expense of someone else's life, and according to them it was totally worth it. Pffft. Ya, bad Emma. Puh-leeze.

 

Snow and Charming are the ones lying, and babynapping and not regretting it, but by all means let's burn Emma at the stake for having a justifiable and normal human reaction that the writers normally deprive her of. I guess Emma's only allowed to be angry at Regina and since that's never going to happen she just needs to not have emotions ever unless it's fawning over Hook.

 

Is it screwed up that Emma pals around with Regina? Abso-freakin-lutely. It's messed up as hell and I hate it. But it's been pointed out multiple times that Emma's level of expectation with her parents, who literally in this season alone have called themselves the "heroes" and are ones who are always on Emma's back when they think she's not doing the "right thing", is not the same level of trust and expectation that Emma has with Regina. At least when it comes to Regina, Emma knows she's The Evil Queen and if Regina where to turn around and throw a fireball out Emma's head right now, Emma wouldn't be as personally offended because, hey, at least Regina never called herself a "hero" and really what would you expect from The Evil Queen. 

 

Snow and Charming (as OOC and irritating that the writers did this to them is) are being self-righteous "We don't regret it because it was worth it" jerks. Emma is allowed to still be mad at them since it's only been hours since they fessed up to their crime (which I say again, because it bears repeating, Snow just said what they did was totally worth it! As far as Snowing knows they killed a baby, but hey "It was worth it". WTF, Snow.)

 

The writers are drawing this out a little too much without any real development, if you ask me. It's been stuck at "Emma is ticked off at her parents and they just give lame excuses for it" for three episodes. It's like, yes Show - we get Emma's mad and Snowing is defensive.

But it's only been a few hours at most since Emma was told Snowing's secret. Once again, the problem is how the episodes were structured. Despite 2 episodes having gone by since the secret reveal, within the show's timeline only a few hours have passed since Snow and Charming told Emma their secret. If Emma were to be over it by now that wouldn't make sense. We'd be calling bullshit on it if she were over it by now.

 

I have to side eye Emma at some of this. Mostly because isn't her new BFF part of the reason why her parents did what they did?

No, for once Regina had aboslutely nothing to do with what Snow and Charming did to Emma and Lily (I know, I'm shocked as well). Snowing's  actions were driven by their own self-righteous attitude and their fears that Emma might not be a hero (even though she had just as much chance of being a hero as a villian), so they basically tried to override Emma's free will and used another innocent to achieve that goal.

Edited April 17, 2015 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

 

But it's only been a few hours at most since Emma was told Snowing's secret. Once again, the problem is how the episodes were structured. Despite 2 episode having gone by since the secret, within the show's timeline only a few hours have passed since Snow and Charming told Emma their secret. If Emma were to be over it by now that wouldn't make sense. We'd be calling bullshit on it if she were over it by now.

That's the case without a doubt. I just felt like we've had this confrontation scene twice already so it feels a bit repetitive. If characters are going to have big, dramatic arguments like this, then the development should go somewhere. There doesn't seem to be any difference between this sneak peek and when Emma originally learned of the secret. The writers aren't bringing anything new to the table. I don't expect it to be resolved until S5 or the 4B finale.

Edited April 17, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Shanna Marie]

I think a big reason this is setting Emma off is that it feeds into her own insecurities. She spent her life feeling like she was thrown away, unwanted, by her birth parents and that there must have been something fundamentally wrong with her because no other parents wanted her. She may now know intellectually that she was wanted, that she was sent away for safekeeping (and to save others), and that she wasn't rejected, but it's really hard to reprogram the brain from a lifetime of attitudes and feelings.

 

Now she's learned that her parents actually did think there was something wrong with her, something so wrong that they were willing to go against everything they stood for to correct it. That's got to create a huge insecurity/rejection feedback loop -- did they really send her away for safety or was it maybe because they were also afraid of her? Was there maybe actually something wrong with her all this time, and that's why she was always rejected by potential adoptive parents? Was she supposed to have been a monster? Is she not actually a good person, after all? Compared to this, watching someone flinging fireballs is nothing because this strikes at the very core of her self image.

[YaddaYadda]

But it's only been a few hours at most since Emma was told Snowing's secret. Once again, the problem is how the episodes were structured. Despite 2 episode having gone by since the secret, within the show's timeline only a few hours have passed since Snow and Charming told Emma their secret. If Emma were to be over it by now that wouldn't make sense. We'd be calling bullshit on it if she were over it by now.

 

Here's the problem, the show apparently skipped ahead a whole 3 weeks since 412 started.  So we don't really know where they are timeline wise although I'm assuming we're the day after Emma found out, freed the Author and Regina found out Zelena is alive and moonlighting in NYC.

 

Since Snow is all about how Emma is still angry with her parents over what they've done, is it too much to hope that she's not sleeping in her bed?  I know, I have my priorities straight.

[Rumsy4]

I'm really looking forward to Sunday now.  I wouldn't be surprised if Cruella is no more after this episode though.  Considering everything, she's going to have 3 women gunning for her because of their children.

 

I read a theory on tumblr that Emma ends up killing Cruelle while rescuing Henry. I doubt all three of the QoD will be getting a HE. That could be what pushes Emma towards darkness. 

 

Snow and Charming (as OOC and irritating that the writers did this to them is) are being self-righteous "We don't regret it because it was worth it" jerks. Emma is allowed to still be mad at them since it's only been hours since they fessed up to their crime (which I say again, because it bears repeating, Snow just said what they did was totally worth it! As far as Snowing knows they killed a baby, but hey "It was worth it". WTF, Snow.)

 

I'm with you Fab. If they're still going around thinking what they did to an innocent baby was worth it, then they don't regret what they did. Their speech about being the best people from henceforth sounds like mere platitude now. Emma must be really confused about her identity now that her parents think the only reason she is "good" is because they did voodoo on some eggbaby. And really, when has Emma been that black and white? And when has Snow indulged in this sort of utilitarian ethics (other than the Cora/Dark Spot debacle)?  This plot is soooo stupid!

Edited April 17, 2015 by Rumsy4

[Shanna Marie]

I can probably guarantee that this Sunday's episode will be good. I'm going to be out that evening, and my cable box is doing something weird so that all the ABC OnDemand episodes are locked as "subscription required." I contacted customer service about it, and they were stumped, so it's apparently not a network issue, and the earliest service appointment I could get was Tuesday morning. I'm going to set the VCR (and check the tape this time), but if it fails, I won't have access to OnDemand for a while. And that means the episode will be really good and I'll not be able to see it.

[kili]

I love how people want to smack Emma for being justifiably angry at her parents for screwing around with her very nature at the expense of someone else, and literally in this sneak peek Snow said it was "worth it."

 

Emma herself just put a young child at extreme risk and that child was harmed. Where does she get off being angry at her parents for putting a child they thought was a dragon at risk?

 

I don't know what planet Snowing is on, but Emma is firmly planted herself on planet hypocracy.

 

but by all means let's burn Emma at the stake for having a justifiable and normal human reaction that the writers normally deprive her of.

 

Emma has never had a human reaction to anything. Just tried to kill her Mom? Emma will make it her goal in life to make sure the perp gets a happy ending if she has to kidnap small children and knock out old men to get there. Boyfriend just about murdered? Time for shots with BFF.

 

You cannot build a story around a character being infinitely forgiving and behaving as no human would and then suddenly make them hold a grudge. It gives viewer's whiplash. And it tells the viewers that killing people, kidnapping children and torture ain't no big thing. But lies from a Hero? They can never be forgiven.

 

I just want some consistency of character.

Edited April 17, 2015 by kili

[FabulousTater]

So we don't really know where they are timeline wise although I'm assuming we're the day after Emma found out, freed the Author and Regina found out Zelena is alive and moonlighting in NYC.

Based on Snowing's and Emma's wardrobe, which is exactly the same as what they were wearing when they told Emma the secret, ya, I would have to say that it's still the same day and probably the same night that Snowing told Emma their secret.

 

It's looks like only a few hours have passed since "Best Laid Plans". In that ep, Snowing told Emma their secret, Emma then leaves the loft and and a bit later they all meet up at the convent with August where Emma releases the Author. The Author runs away and Emma chases him. Then the follwing ep, "Heart of Gold", starts with the continuation of that scene with Emma following The Author into the woods search for him, along with Snowing and Hook. And now in the sneak peek we just saw for the upcoming episode, Emma and Snowing have just returned to the loft after spending time in the woods looking for the Author. All told it looks like it's still the same night that started in "Best Laid Plans".

[YaddaYadda]

I read a theory on tumblr that Emma ends up killing Cruelle while rescuing Henry. I doubt all three of the QoD will be getting a HE. That could be what pushes Emma towards darkness.

 

It's not like we had no idea Emma didn't have it in her to do something like that.  She was going to kill the other kidnapper, Pan.  She was going to shoot him and end it.  That's the closest she's come to killing someone.  Her killing Cruella would not shock me in the least.  

[FabulousTater]

Emma herself just put a young child at extreme risk and that child was harmed. Where does she get off being angry at her parents for putting a child they thought was a dragon at risk?

Emma took responsibility for going along with Regina's plan. Emma said "If anything happens to that kid, it's my fault". Snowing on the other hand are saying what right now? Oh, that's right, Snowing just said in that sneak peek, "We made a mistake but it was worth it!" Take note of the difference. Also, when Emma realized that she'd screwed up she tried to rescue August. What did Snowing do to try and fix their mistake? Nothing.

 

I don't know what planet Snowing is on, but Emma is firmly planted herself on planet hypocracy.

Wrong. Emma recognizes her mistake with regards to August and doesn't go around thinking it was worth it. She's not going around town saying "we're heroes and they're villains". Emma's not being a hyporcite. Snowing are. At no point has Emma painted herself as pure as the driven snow. As someone else noted, Emma's willing to get her hands dirty and she's upfront about that. Snowing are the ones who call themselves "heroes" and frown upon everyone not doing the "right thing" all the while lying and concealing a really ugly secret as if their own shit don't stink. (Again, I hate that the writers created this plot, but their goal was to make Snowing suck in an attempt make the villiains look better and all they did was make Snowing suck along with the villains).

 

I just want some consistency of character.

I think that's something we all want, but we're never going to get that on this show. Because it's This Show

Edited April 17, 2015 by FabulousTater

[Souris]

I can't be mad at either Emma or Snow, really, because it's all a result of bad writing, crappy characterization and Snow-muddying simply to make the villains look better.

[RadioGirl27]

I don't have any problem with Emma's reaction here. She has all the right in the world to be pissed at her parents. The problem is her reaction (or lack of) to other things, like Regina burning Snow at a stake, kidnapping Pinocchio or enslaving Sidney. So, even if I don't agree (because, really, the problem is the terrible writting and the obsession the writers have with put Snowing down to make Regina look good), I can understand why some people is mad at Emma.

Edited April 17, 2015 by RadioGirl27

[kili]

Emma took responsibility for going along with Regina's plan. Emma said "If anything happens to that kid, it's my fault".

 

It's nice that she says that to herself. How about she apologize to Gepetto and August for the horrible thing she did to them? Why can't we see that? Why can't we see her tear Regina a new one for doing absolutely nothing to stick to her promise to protect Pinocchio?

 

Oh, and while we are at it, why don't they show us Emma asking for forgiveness from the Lost Boy whose heart she helped to rip out because she wanted to skyppe her son?

 

Emma is all fine and dandy about risking the lives of children if it means that she can protect her son or assist her BFF. Why does she have a different set of rules for her parents? If she can rip out the heart of a lost boy and kidnap another, why can't they put others at risk for their child?

 

I think Emma was wrong to help rip out that kid's heart. I think she was wrong to participate in the kidnapping of Pinocchio. I think that Snowing was wrong to move her badness into what they thought was a dragon. Why do we spend 3+ shows harping on one of those things and nothing on the other two (or the bazillions of other examples of evil)?

 

I love Emma as a character, but I want her to be a character, not merely a plot tool. If Emma is a character who is pragmatic, forgiving and fiercely protective of her child - okay, I will buy it. But if those things are only true when the plot requires it and she is the exact opposite when the plot requires it, she stops being a character and she's not interesting to me.

 

They have already made Snow an unbelievable character due to her being jerked back-and-forth for the purpose of the plot and propping up other characters. I guess it's Emma's turn to be put through the meat-grinder so there is no consistency left in her character either.

Edited April 17, 2015 by kili

[mjgchick]

It's not like we had no idea Emma didn't have it in her to do something like that.  She was going to kill the other kidnapper, Pan.  She was going to shoot him and end it.  That's the closest she's come to killing someone.  Her killing Cruella would not shock me in the least.  

She was also willing to kill Ingrid to break the curse and she let Regina rip that kids heart out so I wouldn't be shocked if she did kill Cruella. If they can make Snow White kill someone (Yeah it's self defense.) I don't see why not have Emma kill the woman who kidnapped her child.

[KAOS Agent]

Snow flat out said that Emma's attitude now about how she'd never hurt an innocent is because of what they did. Let's ignore what they did and who's worse and whatever and just review what that statement means. Snow is saying flat out that Emma is only good because of this spell. Emma is not a good person on her own. Emma did not make herself into who she is today. That's bullshit and Snow is a horrible person. There is no hypocrisy in Emma being upset that her parents think so little of her that they only believe she is a good person because of what they did.

 

Also, Cruella & Ursula fell through the same portal as the baby and surprise! they are here in the Land without Magic. Instead of making the connection that those two are in this world and thus, so is the baby they screwed over and now they have the opportunity to fix things and truly be good people, they immediately went into cover our ass mode. In spite of their "we're good now" speeches and all the platitudes about grace, Snow "Harder Paths" White and her husband have done nothing to correct their mistake. 

[FabulousTater]

I think Emma was wrong to help rip out that kid's heart. I think she was wrong to participate in the kidnapping of Pinocchio. I think that Snowing was wrong to move her badness into what they thought was a dragon. Why do we spend 3+ shows harping on one of those things and nothing on the other two (or the bazillions of other examples of evil)?

For in show reasons, IMO it's because Snowing are being duplicitous whereas Emma has never pretended she's not willing to cross a line to do what she feels will help or protect others. Emma has openly epxressed willingness to kill Pan, Ingrid, and leave Regina behind in the mines even if Regina's death means that Emma can save Henry, her family, and the whole town. Hell, Emma was ready to leave Hook tied to a tree as ogre food in The Enchanted Forest because he was in cahoots with Cora. So in terms of Emma willing to cross the line, there's no conversation to be had there. Emma will do what it takes even if it means getting her hands dirty and doing something that others would call unheroic. Everyone else may call her a hero, they throw the title at her, but Emma hasn't proclaimed herself as such. But Snowing? Not these guys.

Snowing always painted themselves as righteous heroes. Snowing called themselves heroes and went around giving speeches on doing the right thing even if it's the "harder path". Snow couldn't even bring herself to bring Regina to actual justice and have her executed or imprisoned for life. And that would all be fine (thought still annoying) if the worst thing in Snow's past was that she killed Cora in self-defense. But lo and behold Snowing had this huge crime that they were hiding and at the first possible moment that it could be exposed they started lying and manipulating everyone to keep their secret hidden. That's a problem. Snowing were claiming to be good and heroic in public but at the same time being conniving and devious. That's the difference between what Emma's done that's morally iffy (if not plain wrong) and why Snowing is taking shit for this and it's being harped on in show*.

(*And also because the writers felt compelled to pull this retcon out of thin air so they could insert some drama into Emma's relationship with her parents instead of using the flippin' one thouand and one pre-existing issues between them.)

Ya, I get it's not fair that the writers are spending more time on Snowing's adventures in criminal behavior than anything Regina has ever done. I think it stinks of retcon and I generally hate retcons. It also sucks because Regina is still literally getting away with murder and noone cares! But it's just really fascinating (and irritating) to me that Snowing are the ones that did something really wrong and don't regret it, but Emma is the bad guy for being mad at them? It's like her character can't win no matter how she reacts. If she doesn't react people bitch that she's too forgiving and emotionless. If she does have a reaction she's a monster for being so unforgiving.

 

I've given up hoping that the writers will let go of the absurd friendship between Emma and her and her families lifelong tormentor, Regina. And with that being the case, I will take Emma gets justifiably angry at Snowing if that's all I get because the writers letting Emma react to something normally is better than no reaction at all.

Edited April 17, 2015 by FabulousTater

[YaddaYadda]

Snow flat out said that Emma's attitude now about how she'd never hurt an innocent is because of what they did. Let's ignore what they did and who's worse and whatever and just review what that statement means. Snow is saying flat out that Emma is only good because of this spell. Emma is not a good person on her own. Emma did not make herself into who she is today. That's bullshit and Snow is a horrible person. There is no hypocrisy in Emma being upset that her parents think so little of her that they only believe she is a good person because of what they did.

 

I want an explanation for Snowing (or Snow's) reasoning on this.  Do they feel Emma turned out okay in a world without them to guide her because of the spell?  I hope the hocus pocus that the Apprentice did was just that, some massive fake out and that what the Peddler really wanted was just for Maleficent's baby to go away because she had laid waste to the land and chased people out of their homes to be able to nest.  Then Snow can stop talking about how Emma is good because of what they did.

 

I think the worst part is that they had no clue what the curse was going to do, that Emma was going to be the Savior, that she would end up in the world all by herself when they made that decision.  For them, they were going to be there with her to raise her and they still did what they did.  How would Snowing have looked at Emma if they hadn't done what they did and there had been no curse?  I wonder about that.  

[KingOfHearts]

If Emma kills Cruella, decides to help Maleficent get back with Lily, and has Rumple under leverage, then she may rationalize she can leave with Regina while keeping Henry safe. Killing Cruella would be the perfect way for Emma to go "dark" in the eyes of Snowing.

Edited April 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[Guest]

Snow flat out said that Emma's attitude now about how she'd never hurt an innocent is because of what they did. Let's ignore what they did and who's worse and whatever and just review what that statement means. Snow is saying flat out that Emma is only good because of this spell. Emma is not a good person on her own. Emma did not make herself into who she is today. That's bullshit and Snow is a horrible person. There is no hypocrisy in Emma being upset that her parents think so little of her that they only believe she is a good person because of what they did.

 

As annoyed as I am with Snowing, and I am very annoyed, the thing that makes me the most irritated is the very end of that clip.  Someone comes in at the end of that scene and you just know its discussion over.  No rebuttal from Emma.  No digging into all the messy issues with her parents.  Emma is focusing on what they did to Mal's kid and this show is going to let that stand, like its the only issue going on.

 

There is no line that says 'well if you wanted to make sure I grew up good, then maybe you should have raised me instead of shoving me in a tree and sending me to a world where no one wanted me.'  Or to let Snow know that she is reinforcing every fear Emma has likely ever had about herself and whether she was good enough or loveable.

 

This is going to be another Echo Cave.  Another Snow doesn't notice Emma almost died.  Another tell Emma the secret between commercial breaks.  The worse crime any show can ever perpetrate on viewers is to create character destroying melodrama and then not milk it for all its worth.  If you are going to take potentially show destroying risks with characterization, you have to give it payoff and meaty and interesting scenes to make watching still worth it. 

 

I have no hope that Emma will ever get to say what needs to be said.  I've have slight hope that Hook is going to go off on Snowing at some point after Emma leaves the room.  Who am I kidding this show is too shallow to fill a teacup.

Edited April 18, 2015 by ParadoxLost

[KAOS Agent]

It would sort of be the ultimate irony if making Emma be "good" is the reason she sacrifices herself and why Snowing lose their daughter again. Would it all be worth it to Snow then? Is Emma only useful to them because she's the Saviour? Are they only proud of her because they "made" her this way? Would they only regret their decision to "fix" Emma if it resulted in her dying because of it?

[Rumsy4]

 

It would sort of be the ultimate irony if making Emma be "good" is the reason she sacrifices herself and why Snowing lose their daughter again.

 

Snow is the kind of a dip who would be proud of her daughter sacrificing herself for the "good" (especially if it is for Regina'a sake). With the number of times Snowing have been separated from Emma, it's hard to see a real and lasting bond developing between them, tbh. They barely begin to be parents to Emma when she disappears from their lives each time.

[KingOfHearts]

 

They barely begin to be parents to Emma when she disappears from their lives each time.

Taking this to Relationships.

[kili]

Snow flat out said that Emma's attitude now about how she'd never hurt an innocent is because of what they did. Let's ignore what they did and who's worse and whatever and just review what that statement means. Snow is saying flat out that Emma is only good because of this spell. Emma is not a good person on her own. Emma did not make herself into who she is today. That's bullshit and Snow is a horrible person.

 

Yes, Snow does honestly believe that the magical spell they did to Emma worked. She has lived her entire life in a world where magic is a perfectly valid way of solving problems. Magic is real.

 

If half of my child's class fell ill with the measles and my child did not, I would think it was because my child had been vaccinated against the virus. I would not start assuming that, unknown to me, my child must be a hermit who never interacts with the other children, washes his hands 75 times a day and has an immune system that can fend off any disease. I live in a world where vaccines protect you (most of the time) and if you are exposed to the disease and do not get it, it is because you were vaccinated.

 

Snow lives in a world where if magic tells her that her child has a high likelihood of being evil and a spell takes away that evil, the child is good because of that spell. Replace magic with medicine and it all makes sense. Snow had an ultrasound that told her that Emma's heart had a bad valve so Snow went to a doctor who gave her a better valve in utero (after having it cut out from another fetus - I know you can't do that, but I need a way to harm another baby to save Emma), the fact that Emma is still alive is because of what Snow did. The fact that Snow harmed another baby is the problem.

 

I may live in a world where I recoil at Snow taking credit for Emma's goodness because of some magical mumbo-jumbo because magic is mumbo-jumbo. But magic is real and Snow needs there to be a reason for what she did. I find Snow's actions very human although I can understand why Emma living in my world would not. Still, if you are the Pollyanna of forgiveness, why stop now? Is it because Emma can forgive everybody for being a villain when it doesn't harm her personally, but she's going to take umbrage if she is the victim?

 

Snowing called themselves heroes and went around giving speeches on doing the right thing even if it's the "harder path".

 

Snowing are like ex-smokers who go around telling everybody else they need to stop smoking and how right it is. Reformed addicts are often the most militant. Look at Regina all lectury at Rumple when she had only just recently turned good and had white magic come out of her ass. "Heros don't kill" and 5 hours later she's planning on killing an innocent woman who was brought to the future.

 

The one thing I don't know is that is Snow right about Emma being good because of the spell? In past seasons, I would say "No". I would wait for Snow to learn about banana oil and Princes on the internet wanting to give you money. But this season has been all about the Author which I thought, when I first heard it was going to be a lesson for Regina that we control our own fate and are responsible for our own actions. But then, every single character appears to have bought into the theory that the Author controls their fate and "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way".. Then they showed us that the Author is real and he does control people's actions and fates. So, Emma being born the evilest thing ever unless she is magically cured could be a thing. IDK. It fits the universe they are building this season.

 

I imagine that it being TS, TW it will turn out that all evil things done by the villains and the bad things that subsequently happened to them was the fault of the Author. All of the bad things done by heros was all their own fault and the bad things that subsequently happened to them was well-deserved karma.

Edited April 18, 2015 by kili

[regularlyleaded]

Snow lives in a world where if magic tells her that her child has a high likelihood of being evil and a spell takes away that evil, the child is good because of that spell. Replace magic with medicine and it all makes sense. Snow had an ultrasound that told her that Emma's heart had a bad valve so Snow went to a doctor who gave her a better valve in utero (after having it cut out from another fetus - I know you can't do that, but I need a way to harm another baby to save Emma), the fact that Emma is still alive is because of what Snow did. The fact that Snow harmed another baby is the problem.

This is a deeply flawed analogy. Emma was not ill. At no point was Emma's life in danger in utero. She was not in danger of dying in utero and Snowing weren't giving her life saving magic. That's not what happened. Emma didn't need a new heart valve, or a transplant from another baby, or a bone marrow transplant or any sort of magical medicine. She wasn't ill or in any way flawed. Nothing of what Snowing did was to save Emma's life. So the analogy that they were doing any of this to save Emma's life is without merit.

 

Emma was going to be born like everyone else with free will and an equal chance of being good or bad. That's it. That was the big bad issue. Emma would have free will and would have to make her own choices in life to be good or bad. Oooh, the horror. :-/ There was nothing wrong with Emma and Snow knew this. The Apprentice told Snow and Charming to their faces, in english, that fetus Emma, like everyone else, had an equal chance to be good or evil. But Snowing refused to listen and let it go at that because it wasn't good enough for Snow. Emma as is was not good enough for Snow. Snow wanted a shiny good hero baby and so they sacrificed another child to make sure their baby was supernaturally good. They did so not because Emma's life was in danger or because Emma needed magical medicine. No, Snow and Charming kidnapped another baby because they were convinced that Mal's child would be evil despite being an innocent (in The Apprentice's words, a blank slate) and due to their own self-righteous arrogance they sacrificed another child's soul to get the "good" baby they wanted.

 

Whether Snowing thought the baby was a dragon or not has proven itself to be irrelevant at this juncture because even now, knowing that it was an actual human baby, Snow doesn't care. We just saw and heard in the recent sneak peek that whatever the cost to another innocent baby, Snow doesn't care because they firmly believe it was worth it. I have to repeat this because I'm gobsmacked, but Holy Cannoli! as far as Snow knows Mal's baby is dead, they were directly responsible for what happened, and yet they think it was worth it! I'm sorry to break the news to you, but that makes Snow a horrible person.

 

Emma's life wasn't in danger in utero. They weren't saving her life so there aren't any extenuating circumstances to mitigate their actions. This isn't a case of self-defense or bad actions committed to save a life that was in mortal peril. Not at all. Now, Snowing have in no way reached the monumental levels of moral depravity that Regina has, true. But it doesn't diminish that what they did was terrible and they have no excuse for it and apparently also don't regret it. Yay?

 

It's sadly hilarious, actually...Snow in that sneak peek displayed as much regret for sending a baby to die as Cruella did in the earlier sneak peek (when she told Mal she left baby Lily in the woods to die). Both Snow and Cruella showed equal amount of disregard for baby Lily. At least Cruella doesn't pretend what she did weren't the actions of a terrible person. If Emma is mad and wants to rage at Snowing and/or Lily wants to kick Snowing's ass when she finally rolls into town, I think they are both well within their rights to do so.

Edited April 18, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[kili]

Emma was going to be born like everyone else with free will and an equal chance of being good or bad.

That's not the impression I got.

 

I thought Emma had some capacity to be epicly evil. We got blah-blah all last season about how innocent Baby Snowflake was. He was the epitomy of innocence and his very innonce could drive a spell thought to be impossible to cast. When a pregnant Snow trotted through Glinda's door, the door didn't balk even though it would only let those with pure hearts in. Glinda herself raved about Neal's pure heart.

 

Meanwhile, the Tree of Wisdom knocked Snow on her a$$ for even trying to use it because she was carrying a child with potential for darkness.

 

I'm as frustrated as hell with the nonsense that the Writer's are serving up with Emma having some massive potential for evil, but in universe, I can see Snow believing it.  In our world, the very idea is utter rubbish, but what evidence to we have that it is utter rubbish in their world? The Apprentice did say that Emma had an equal chance of being good or bad, but wasn't the entire tree thing about Emma being not just bad, but off the chart bad?  If Emma had a 50/50 chance of being normal bad, then Snowing were idiots. If Emma had a 50/50 chance of being the evilest thing the universe has ever seen and that universe includes the Dark One, I can see why Snowing might be more willing to tip the odds in their favour.

 

Chernobog didn't go for Regina who we know is really, really bad. She's a person who thinks nohting of having an entire village slaughtered because they like Snow better than her. Chernobog judged Emma to have the greatest capacity for badness. That's some level of bad. If everybody has a 50/50 chance of being equally bad, Chernobog serves no purpose because there is no choice to make. Some must have a potential for greater badness (stupid, I know, but this is the universe we are watching)

 

In that sneak peak, Snow seems to honestly believe that the spell saved Emma from being the most evil thing ever. Now, they may be wrong, but I can understand some of Snow's words in that scene if they honestly believe what I think they do. They may find out they are wrong (like the people who try to use herbs to cure their child's fatal cancer), but their actions are explainable by their beliefs. And the world they live in and the evidence they've seen makes those beliefs not unrealistic.

 

It's like the climatic scene in the original Star Wars. Luke turns off his targeting computer to use the Force. If he did that in our world, he would be an idiot. Almost all of the characters in the movie thinks he is being an idiot - that the Jedi stuff is just an ancient religion and parlour tricks. But Luke is right and the audience cheers on his actions because he and we have been shown evidence that the Force is real and it will get the job done. From what we've been shown, I think Snowing actually believes that they did the right thing. A&E are just such terriblely inconsistent writer's that I can see why there is debate  wheher we are supposed to think Snowing completely deluded or somehow right. If it was Regina who had been faced with the choice, I think the writers would have made it abundantly clear what the audience should think. But because they want to have  both the "the author controls our destiny" and "heros can be evil too"  themes, they've muddied it so much.

Edited April 18, 2015 by kili

[regularlyleaded]

Emma was going to be born like everyone else with free will and an equal chance of being good or bad.

That's not the impression I got.

Sorry to be the one to disabuse you of the notion ;) but it was never about saving Emma's life. She wasn't in mortal peril or in imminent danger. Here's the pertinent part of the transcript:

 

From "Best Laid Plans" The scene where Snowing speak to The Apprentice (emphasis mine):

Snow: My husband saw happiness for our child, I saw pure terror. How do we know which of our visions is real?

The Apprentice: I'm afraid they both are. You see, we are all born as blank slates, with the potential for good and evil, and with the gift of free will so we can choose between the two. Which is why there is an equal chance that either of your visions may come true.

 

The Apprentice told them point blank that Emma had a 50/50 shot like everyone else. Snow just didn't like those odds, so they sacrificed another baby to get the results they wanted.

 

What also adds insult to injury is that The Apprentice afterwards tells them that "Your child is now pure of intent and heroic of spirit. It is now up to the two of you to guide it. To keep it in the light." So what they did was ultimately pointless. 

 

...I really hate this storyline.

 

ETA: I think what I find most troublesome now (among so, so, sooo many other troubling things happening on this show this season) is that in the new sneak peek Snow says that what they did was worth it. In the previous episode they at least felt guilty about it, but now though they know they sacrificed an innocent baby they say it was worth it....That's just...wow. I find that almost Regina/Rumpel levels of despicable. If the writers are smart (Ha!) they'll have Snow recant that statement sometime soon.

 

We got blah-blah all last season about how innocent Baby Snowflake was. He was the epitomy of innocence and his very innonce could drive a spell thought to be impossible to cast. When a pregnant Snow trotted through Glinda's door, the door didn't balk even though it would only let those with pure hearts in. Glinda herself raved about Neal's pure heart.

Meanwhile, the Tree of Wisdom knocked Snow on her a$$ for even trying to use it because she was carrying a child with potential for darkness.

And that in of itself makes no sense either. The Apprentice just told them everyone is born with an equal chance for good or evil, so by those rules it's not possible to have a fetus that's all good without it having been magically manipulated somehow. That's what IMO makes this entire storyline a retcon. This storyline as well as the author plot is utter nonsense.

 

The writers are stepping on themselves here and don't seem to care that they are assassinating Snow & Charming because why? Because the writers wanted to show the "heroes" as having feet of clay. But this is far beyond having feet of clay. This is a knowingly malicious action with a dollop of no regrets, and that's not the same as having "feet of clay". This entire plot with Snowing's secret and the author plot are so poorly thought out and such a huge misfire that I'm left with the impression that the writers are actually trying to write bad, bad plots. In the past I thought they were trying to write good stories and, unfortunately, blew it 7 times out of 10. But now it's as if purposely writing bad plots is a challenge that they've accepted with zeal. *SMH*

Edited April 18, 2015 by regularlyleaded

[myril]

The writers are stepping on themselves here and don't seem to care that they are assassinating Snow & Charming because why? Because the writers wanted to show the "heroes" as having feet of clay. But this is far beyond having feet of clay. This is a knowingly malicious action with a dollop of no regrets, and that's not the same as having "feet of clay". This entire plot with Snowing's secret and the author plot are so poorly thought out and such a huge misfire that I'm left with the impression that the writers are actually trying to write bad, bad plots. In the past I thought they were trying to write good stories and, unfortunately, blew it 7 times out of 10. But now it's as if purposely writing bad plots is a challenge that they've accepted with zeal. *SMH*

 

Taking this to the writers' thread.

[kili]

Sorry to be the one to disabuse you of the notion ;) but it was never about saving Emma's life

I'm sorry if I gave the implication that I thought it was about saving Emma's life. I don't think Snowing thought they were saving Emma's life, I was just using a real world parallel because in this world, there is no magic. What I think Snowing thought was that they were saving Emma from great darkness.

 

Yes, the Apprentice says the odds are fifty/fifty. As an analogy closer to the real world,  fifty/fifty are fine odds if you think it's fifty/fifty that your baby is going to have blue eyes or brown. Nobody would think an intervention was necessary. Buf it the odds were fifty/fifty that a child would be born with no eyes and a procedure could be done to make sure they were born with eyes, then a lot of people might think it was a good idea to have the procedures.

 

Mal says this:

Your child is the product of true love, which means it could grow to be a powerful hero capable of great good. But with the potential for that good also comes something else[What?]The potential for great darkness.Your child might turn out to be just like us.[You mean a...A villain]Darker than any this realm has ever seen.

 

So, we're not talking about Emma being a normal child here who may either spend all her nights doing homework or out partying at the local pub (blue or brown eyes). The choice is either she will be a Savior or she will be darker than the Dark One (eyes or no eyes). It's not that she didn't have faith in Emma, she didn't have faith in herself to know how to raise somebody to be the Savior. She already blames herself for creating Regina, so she knows that one minor mistake can result in a holy terror. One little action on Snow's part  changed Regina forever and led to her father's death, the deaths of thousands of others and almost her own death. I can see why she might be a little wary of how easy it is to make a villain even with the best of intentions.

 

So, yes, Snow does think that the actions she took resulted in Emma being a good person regardless of how much Snow messed up. That's what the magic was intended to do. Emma was one secret told away from being Darker than Rumple.

 

And that is what forms the basis of Snow's words in that sneak peak.

Edited April 18, 2015 by kili

[YaddaYadda]

The whole child being born out of true love business has gotten absolutely ridiculous.  What's the difference between Snowflake and Emma?  So Emma has the potential to go either way, but Snowflake has a pure heart so his fine?  That shit makes no sense.

 

And the whole Chernabog premise has gone the wayside.  So Emma's great potential for evil is wiped from her completely and transferred into another child.  But that whole clip when Snow is talking, it ignores that Emma does have darkness inside her.  We know Emma will get her hands dirty if she has to.  She is her boyfriend's girlfriend in that sense.  So now, either everyone still believes that the Chernabog was going after Regina or they've already retconned what they wrote in 412 regarding that beast which in 412 went after Maleficent who I'm sure tapped into all of her potential darkness.  Am I supposed to believe that Maleficent is not as big a villain as Cruella or Ursula?  If I go by the flashbacks, Ursula was not all that evil.  She wasn't a great person, but she wasn't evil, so why not go after her instead?  If I didn't know any better, I'd say that Emma was pregnant right around the time the Chernabog attacked her.

 

And we know Emma will be ten times more pissy with mom and dad when she realizes that the baby they transferred her darkness into was the best friend she pushed away all those years ago.

[sharky]

I didn't know I needed this until now! There would definitely be people saying it isn't Hook's place to judge since he did a lot of awful things in the past, but the problem here is less about what Snowing did and more about their attitude in general. I think Hook could provide a much-needed, slap-in-the-face reality check, since he wasn't involved in what happened and can look at it from a more objective point of view. It probably won't happen, but it would be nice to see for once after all the crap Snowing gave Hook over being a pirate.

I never knew I needed this until now. This would be a great point for him to say he knows Emma is a good person at heart and would've been with or without Snowing's secret. And then they go back to the Jolly Roger and make out. If this doesn't happen, I'm writing that fanfic! :)

 

The whole child being born out of true love business has gotten absolutely ridiculous.  What's the difference between Snowflake and Emma?  So Emma has the potential to go either way, but Snowflake has a pure heart so his fine?  That shit makes no sense.

That has bugged me too, but they've never made a big deal about Neal the Baby being the product of true love the way they have with Emma and I don't know why. Is it because Snow's heart is dark after killing Cora/taking the egg/whatever other reason that will be retconned later? I guess maybe it's a pass for now because Neal hasn't shown to be magical yet, but that's also because we haven't really seen him either -- and it doesn't seem like we will anytime soon. Have we had any spoilers about that kid? Seriously, who has been baby-sitting him while the Charmings are running around Storybrooke trying to find this author?

[YaddaYadda]

Is it because Snow's heart is dark after killing Cora/taking the egg/whatever other reason that will be retconned later?

 

I know Glinda was a bit stupid, but she said that Snow carried 2 pure hearts.  Regina wasn't able to cross the threshold of her door because her heart was filled with vengeance or whatever it is that she said.  If Emma is the product of true love, then her brother should be too.  I know Rumple manipulated a lot of things and I was hoping they'd be like well Rumple wrote in the clause of the greatest evil in his dark curse because he thinks that Emma can actually beat him and eliminate him someday and he doesn't wanna take that chance.  

[Watt]

So about them spoilers.

[YaddaYadda]

spoilers?  Not a spoiler but a speculation.  Have Snowing paid the price for trying to change Emma?  The Apprentice told them there would be a price to pay for the voodoo they were going to pull and Snow said they would pay anything.  So what if the price is Emma going poof in 422?  

[RadioGirl27]

I didn't know I needed this until now! There would definitely be people saying it isn't Hook's place to judge since he did a lot of awful things in the past, but the problem here is less about what Snowing did and more about their attitude in general. I think Hook could provide a much-needed, slap-in-the-face reality check, since he wasn't involved in what happened and can look at it from a more objective point of view. It probably won't happen, but it would be nice to see for once after all the crap Snowing gave Hook over being a pirate.

 

I never knew I needed this until now. This would be a great point for him to say he knows Emma is a good person at heart and would've been with or without Snowing's secret. And then they go back to the Jolly Roger and make out. If this doesn't happen, I'm writing that fanfic! :)

Start writing it, because I'm pretty sure Hook is not going to open his mouth in that scene. Sadly, he is just pretty background now. But, yeah, that scene would be the perfect moment to show her parents how much he loves and trusts her.

[KingOfHearts]

I'm disappointed we're probably going to lose Cruella in order to keep Henry. Wish it were the other way around...

[nksarmi]

Yes, Snow does honestly believe that the magical spell they did to Emma worked. She has lived her entire life in a world where magic is a perfectly valid way of solving problems. Magic is real.

 

If half of my child's class fell ill with the measles and my child did not, I would think it was because my child had been vaccinated against the virus. I would not start assuming that, unknown to me, my child must be a hermit who never interacts with the other children, washes his hands 75 times a day and has an immune system that can fend off any disease. I live in a world where vaccines protect you (most of the time) and if you are exposed to the disease and do not get it, it is because you were vaccinated.

 

Snow lives in a world where if magic tells her that her child has a high likelihood of being evil and a spell takes away that evil, the child is good because of that spell. Replace magic with medicine and it all makes sense. Snow had an ultrasound that told her that Emma's heart had a bad valve so Snow went to a doctor who gave her a better valve in utero (after having it cut out from another fetus - I know you can't do that, but I need a way to harm another baby to save Emma), the fact that Emma is still alive is because of what Snow did. The fact that Snow harmed another baby is the problem.

 

I may live in a world where I recoil at Snow taking credit for Emma's goodness because of some magical mumbo-jumbo because magic is mumbo-jumbo. But magic is real and Snow needs there to be a reason for what she did. I find Snow's actions very human although I can understand why Emma living in my world would not. Still, if you are the Pollyanna of forgiveness, why stop now? Is it because Emma can forgive everybody for being a villain when it doesn't harm her personally, but she's going to take umbrage if she is the victim?

 

 

Snowing are like ex-smokers who go around telling everybody else they need to stop smoking and how right it is. Reformed addicts are often the most militant. Look at Regina all lectury at Rumple when she had only just recently turned good and had white magic come out of her ass. "Heros don't kill" and 5 hours later she's planning on killing an innocent woman who was brought to the future.

 

The one thing I don't know is that is Snow right about Emma being good because of the spell? In past seasons, I would say "No". I would wait for Snow to learn about banana oil and Princes on the internet wanting to give you money. But this season has been all about the Author which I thought, when I first heard it was going to be a lesson for Regina that we control our own fate and are responsible for our own actions. But then, every single character appears to have bought into the theory that the Author controls their fate and "I'm not bad, I'm just drawn that way".. Then they showed us that the Author is real and he does control people's actions and fates. So, Emma being born the evilest thing ever unless she is magically cured could be a thing. IDK. It fits the universe they are building this season.

 

I imagine that it being TS, TW it will turn out that all evil things done by the villains and the bad things that subsequently happened to them was the fault of the Author. All of the bad things done by heros was all their own fault and the bad things that subsequently happened to them was well-deserved karma.

And this is why I have been unable to watch the second half of the season and just might quit the show.  No one needs to have accountability for any choice they make?  No one has free will?  Why even have jails or sheriffs then?  I just can't get past this even though I love the actress playing Mal and I want to see her square off against Cruella and such - I just can't.

[KingOfHearts]

There's this scene in the behind the scenes special that aired before 4x12. It has Robin and Rumple in the Dark Castle, and Rumple has the Fairy Godmother's wand. Could this have been a deleted scene, or has it not aired yet? 

 

Link. Time is 1:29.

https://youtu.be/hW-mHAE6Cgw?t=89

Edited April 18, 2015 by KingOfHearts

[sharky]

I think we determined that they would've been shooting Robin's episode around that time so it was likely a scene that got snipped.