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Spoiler Discussion: The apple was poisoned?!


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So it sounds to me like Emma and Hook are working together in Camelot until their plans hit a snag. I can't imagine having to fight Clippy!Rumple is going to be all that fun for Hook.

 

And it sounds like Emma tries to talk him down from the whole revenge against Gold in Storybrooke.

 

And Lancelot is back? Yay! (not really)

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But regarding this whole sacrifice thing, Hook was always going to be Emma's price to pay. Merlin told Emma not to do what she was about to do unless she was ready to pay the steepest of prices.

 

But if Emma didn't do it, she was already paying the price of Hook's life because he was dying. This whole story falls down by having Emma pay a very, very steep price for doing the right thing anyway. And I still say if she'd let him die, the Darkness would have taken hold as anger & grief combined to make a vengeful Dark Swan. Yes, Hook will die at the end of this arc and Emma will be forced into helping him sacrifice himself, but I have major problems with the way it's all being framed. 

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But if Emma didn't do it, she was already paying the price of Hook's life because he was dying. This whole story falls down by having Emma pay a very, very steep price for doing the right thing anyway. And I still say if she'd let him die, the Darkness would have taken hold as anger & grief combined to make a vengeful Dark Swan. Yes, Hook will die at the end of this arc and Emma will be forced into helping him sacrifice himself, but I have major problems with the way it's all being framed. 

The death isn't sticking so why does it matter really? It's just going to further prove that these two will do anything for each other.

 

I don't think Emma will force him to sacrifice himself at all. I think he's gonna do it willingly.

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Hmm, in those still, the Nevengers have to see how Hook saved them from Merlin/Arthur/Zelena. Maybe they'll actually give a shit about his well-being. Granted, they didn't care that much in Camelot.

Edited by ABitOFluff
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Hook is so going to end up resisting the darkness; as it looks like the heroes are preoccupied with other matters (Merida seeking revenge on Arthur, Zelena wanting her baby, Nimue and her congregation getting unleashed) to stop Hook from killing Gold themselves.  His expression in those stills he's holding the sword down toward Gold seems conflicted.

 

http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/once/gallery6/gallery11/hires/4.jpg

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Hook is so going to end up resisting the darkness; as it looks like the heroes are preoccupied with other matters (Merida seeking revenge on Arthur, Zelena wanting her baby, Nimue and her congregation getting unleashed) to stop Hook from killing Gold themselves.  His expression in those stills he's holding the sword down toward Gold seems conflicted.

 

http://www.farfarawaysite.com/section/once/gallery6/gallery11/hires/4.jpg

 

Not just that, there's also this to consider.

 

Hook has Excalibur, yet what he uses to cut Rumple is his hook. Why not use Excalibur? He would kill Rumple if he uses Excalibur. He's gonna resist the darkness for sure. Especially since we know Rumple after the fight looks completely unscathed aside from a small scratch from the hook, not Excalibur. Scratching him with Excalibur would kill him and I think Rumple knows that.

 

This is probably why Rumple goes with the others to the UW to save him. He feels like he owes Hook a debt for sparing his life.

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But if Emma didn't do it, she was already paying the price of Hook's life because he was dying. 

I did say Emma's price was always going to be Hook's life. Whether she saved him or not, his was always going to be the price for the magic. And I agree that Emma might've turned completely dark, lost control because of her grief. 

 

I'm not a fan of her paying any kind of price when the reason they're in this mess is because she did something out of a noble sacrifice. 

 

Emma loses the guy she loves, wants to build a future with because she decided to save everyone.

Rumple accumulates centuries of bad karma because he did terrible things, he gets a brand new heart, a clean slate, and gets minted a hero for not peeing his pants.

 

Forget the whole Rumple vs Hook thing. In relation to Emma and her actions, how is that even fair?

 

The death isn't sticking so why does it matter really? It's just going to further prove that these two will do anything for each other.

 

The difference though is that we are spoiled, so we know in the grand scheme of things, it won't matter. But some unspoiled person watching all of this? It will matter.

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I did say Emma's price was always going to be Hook's life. Whether she saved him or not, his was always going to be the price for the magic. And I agree that Emma might've turned completely dark, lost control because of her grief.

 

But even in this, Emma isn't the one paying the price. Hook is. Why does someone else pay the price for another person's magic? This is why Once is so fucked up. Regina gets a happy ending with her son and her soul mate because her father paid the price for her to cast the curse. Yes, Regina may be sad that her dad's dead, but Henry loses his life. I hope he's in the Underworld and pissed as hell. Cora is great at pushing all of Regina's buttons and I'll be happy to see her, but damn would I like to see a vengeful Henry.

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The difference though is that we are spoiled, so we know in the grand scheme of things, it won't matter. But some unspoiled person watching all of this? It will matter.

 

I don't think they will end the finale without us knowing that Hook is very much still alive somewhere and setting up 5B or Operation Light Swan aka Save Hook.

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Its really not fair that Emma will continue to get punished for...doing the right thing. Hook had had the best redemption arc and yet it feels like he's still paying for it but Rumple and Regina gets saves by the woman bout have tried to kill. Oh. I honestly don't care if Emma ends up saving Hook in the underworld its just not fair that Emma is paying the price in the first place.

Also if both Lance and Merlin are killed but that turd Arthur is alive and just has to deal with Merida then im side eyeing A&E real hard.

Edited by mjgchick
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Emma loses the guy she loves, wants to build a future with because she decided to save everyone.

Rumple accumulates centuries of bad karma because he did terrible things, he gets a brand new heart, a clean slate, and gets minted a hero for not peeing his pants.

I guess we're supposed to give Rumple the same pass we're prepared to give Hook -- Rumple was possessed by an evil entity that he couldn't resist. Now that he's not -- clean slate.

Now I don't agree with that statement but I fear the show is telling that story.

Edited by chrisvee
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But even in this, Emma isn't the one paying the price. Hook is. Why does someone else pay the price for another person's magic? This is why Once is so fucked up. Regina gets a happy ending with her son and her soul mate because her father paid the price for her to cast the curse. Yes, Regina may be sad that her dad's dead, but Henry loses his life. I hope he's in the Underworld and pissed as hell. Cora is great at pushing all of Regina's buttons and I'll be happy to see her, but damn would I like to see a vengeful Henry.

And this is what's going to piss me off is Rumple remains a hero at the end of this, He was terrible to everyone throughout season 4. If Hook is seeking revenge on him, it's because the guy deserves to get his ass kicked on behalf of the entire town. But, Hook is going to be the one battling the darkness and having to make the ultimate sacrifice.

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Yay for Lancelot and Grumpy being back. Hopefully Lancelot lives and gets left behind for whatever reason. we're already going to lose Merlin. I'm going to take a guess and say that this episode is going to end up choppy and on the messier side.

So Emma and Hook end up in a disagreement. Hmmm.

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I guess we're supposed to give Rumple the same pass we're prepared to give Hook -- Rumoke as possessed by an evil entity that he couldn't resist. Now that he's not -- clean slate.

 

Which I was okay doing back in season 3. Then season 4 happened, and I don't wanna give him that pass. Plus he created this mess by coming back to town, knowing the outcome if his plan with the AU failed, which it did.

 

Hook is the Dark One for 5 minutes before he apparently sacrifices himself. And barring that whole Merlin "spoiler", as far as we know, the only person he's going after is the one he feels did him wrong in the past. 

 

ETA - Hook's hook is bloodied btw. He hurts him with the hook, not the sword. Maybe he'll wanna use the sword on him after.

Edited by YaddaYadda
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ETA - Hook's hook is bloodied btw. He hurts him with the hook, not the sword. Maybe he'll wanna use the sword on him after.

I think that's a clear sign that he resists the darkness. Cause we know Rumple is fine in the next episode. So the fact that he's fine says Hook does not kill him cause he could easily kill him with Excalibur.

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I think that's a clear sign that he resists the darkness. Cause we know Rumple is fine in the next episode. So the fact that he's fine says Hook does not kill him cause he could easily kill him with Excalibur.

 

It's weird to say, but I think him drawing blood is important because it's a reminder that Gold is mortal. Hook stabbed Gold with his hook 3 times. Twice, the man did not bleed, because he was immortal. Once he stabbed him with the hook seeped in dreamshade, but that was also done in the Land without Magic, where Gold could not retaliate because can't use magic there.

 

This time, they're in Storybrooke where there is magic, he draws blood, which is a reminder that Gold is neither immortal, nor has magic.

 

Seems to me this is a mix of 2x04 and 2x14 (was it in that episode Hook stabbed Gold with the dreamshade?)

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I think it's equally been a Hook-Emma centric arc. Don't think Emma's gotten this much POV since S1. 

 

No, she got alot of POV in 3A and 4A as well, if not more since she didn't have to act "mysterious".

Edited by Mathius
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This press release makes me care even less about Dark Hook. I'm actually more interested in seeing how the Robin/Regina/Zelena scene is going to play out. Is Zelena going to kidnap the baby? Are they going to negotiate visiting rights? Is Zelena going throw a bunch of threats and make Regina vow revenge?

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I did say Emma's price was always going to be Hook's life. Whether she saved him or not, his was always going to be the price for the magic. And I agree that Emma might've turned completely dark, lost control because of her grief.

I'm not a fan of her paying any kind of price when the reason they're in this mess is because she did something out of a noble sacrifice.

Emma loses the guy she loves, wants to build a future with because she decided to save everyone.

Rumple accumulates centuries of bad karma because he did terrible things, he gets a brand new heart, a clean slate, and gets minted a hero for not peeing his pants.

Forget the whole Rumple vs Hook thing. In relation to Emma and her actions, how is that even fair?

The difference though is that we are spoiled, so we know in the grand scheme of things, it won't matter. But some unspoiled person watching all of this? It will matter.

I can't endorse /like/applaud this post enough!!

All of SB better be lined up to volunteer to risk life and limb to get Emma her happy ending back ..and we all know who damn well should be at the head of the queue!

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I still want to know where Zelena is in 5B. And where's the baby? Bex said she filmed with Jen & Colin on Friday which makes things even more confusing. So Emma & Hook are reunited by the second episode back? Are they in Storybrooke already? How else did Zelena get to the Underworld unless she dies in Swan Song, which I don't think is the case. I want Zelena to mostly go away, but what is she doing now? 

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Dark vengeful Hook is hot.

 

I think Arthur kills Lance in Camelot when Lance is trying to rescue Guin. I bet that plays a role in the disagreement between Hook and Emma, with Hook deciding to cast the Dark Curse. Emma told Regina that she built the Curse without a savior. That means, at some point, she went along with the plan? I don't think she was talking about the stolen memories, as that wasn't a Curse. 

Edited by Rumsy4
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I'm really wishing the two-parter could have been 5x10 and 5x11. It seems like they go together.

 

We really don't know much about 5B, do we? We know some of the what, but not any of the why or how. We know the main characters are going to the Underworld, but is it by choice or are they forced to? Are the undead characters central to the plot, or are they just guest stars to wave at as you go through? Like what KAOS Agent said - we don't know how Zelena calculates into this either. I'm not fully convinced Hades is the Big Bad. He might be a neutral player with his own agenda. Cruella seems to be relevant somehow since she's back for multiple episodes. That's rather strange.

 

Hercules and Megara make this even more complicated.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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I thought Hercules and Megara are in for just one episode so far. I really hope they keep it that way. I'm happy to only have Cruella and Hades for 5B.

I know, but Hercules is in modern clothes while Megara is in FTL clothes. Were they both in the Underworld, or was Hercules in Storybrooke? If so, how do Snow and Hercules just jump worlds?

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I still want to know where Zelena is in 5B. And where's the baby? Bex said she filmed with Jen & Colin on Friday which makes things even more confusing. So Emma & Hook are reunited by the second episode back? Are they in Storybrooke already? How else did Zelena get to the Underworld unless she dies in Swan Song, which I don't think is the case. I want Zelena to mostly go away, but what is she doing now? 

 

I'm not sure they're together again. She could have just filmed with both of them in separate scenes.

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I'm not sure they're together again. She could have just filmed with both of them in separate scenes.

 

She's clearly trying to reunite her OTP. 

Edited by Rumsy4
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She's clearly trying to reunite her OTP. 

Seriously, we joke, but no other character has been as invested in CaptainSwan as Zelena has. When this show ends, we're going to find out it was all her fanfiction.

Edited by ABitOFluff
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I'm not fully convinced Hades is the Big Bad. He might be a neutral player with his own agenda. Cruella seems to be relevant somehow since she's back for multiple episodes. That's rather strange.

 

I think Hades is the Big Bad, but he'll mainly work through agents such as Cruella.  That seems to be more like his style.

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I'm not sure they're together again. She could have just filmed with both of them in separate scenes.

 

Fine, separate scenes, whatever. How the hell then are all these other characters interacting with both if they can't find each other? Someone said Hercules was filming with Colin and then with Ginny. So now Hercules and Zelena are both able to find Hook, but Emma can't. And it can't be a Zelena flashback because neither Hook nor Emma knew Zelena prior to 3B. We've seen all of their interaction. I will be seriously pissed at the contrivance of x character easily interacting with everyone while some sort of silly angst is built at them not finding each other. I'm starting to come down on the side of Emma & Hook are reunited early on because they don't want those two apart for too long and too much separation is bad for business.

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If Emma's giving most of the regular cast members their memories back now, does this mean the curse might not be broken by the end of 5A? Or does the death of the one who cast the curse end the curse anyway? I remember Emma's death in Season 1 would have ended the curse, but I don't think they ever said if Regina's death would do the same or Snow's after 3B.

 

Not that it matters much if say Grumpy doesn't remember hanging around with Lancelot in Camelot, but it would mean the treeing at the town line curse is still in place.

 

ETA: That Dark Hook sneak peek. You can tell RC is having a ball playing Clippy. 

Edited by InsertWordHere
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Dark Hook sneak peek.

I loved it when Clippy!Rumple said "Hi!" It almost made me forget the ridiculousness of the vengeance plot. That really cracked me up.

 

 

You can tell RC is having a ball playing Clippy

I see more fire in Clippy than I've seen from Rumple in a long time.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Colin's acting was A+++++ in that clip! You could practically see the agitation and discombobulation radiating off him, like a million sensations were running through his mind and body. He and Bobby play off each other so well, since they're both so talented.

 

Having Clippy in his head 24/7 is going to drive Hook bonkers. It was awful for Emma, and it will be even worse for Hook b/c of his history with Rumple.

Edited by Souris
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Rumple and Hook play well against each other even though there is no logic to Hook being able to see Clippy!Rumple. Emma absorbed the Darkness that once inhabited Rumple so it makes sense he is in her head.  Hook should be tormented by Merlin. "Hi. You have a great quest and a great sacrifice ahead of you, but I'm not going to tell you what it is. Instead I'm just going to spout platitudes until you want to kill yourself. Have I said too much?"

Edited by kili
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I don't blame Robert. Imp!Rump is loads more fun than love sick Gold or the stoic villainy Gold. It's also a new dynamic for him. Imp Rump is something he's never gotten to do with Hook or Emma outside of the short Back to the Future scenes. At this point he probably knows there's nothing new that Rump could be doing.

does this mean the curse might not be broken by the end of 5A?

They've diluted the original curse so much it might as well not be a curse. They just use it strictly as portal traveling and amnesia inducing. Which is really ridiculous considering they've made up a million ways to go back and forth by now. I mean how are they cursed? They lost 6 weeks of memories whoop de doo. Time isn't frozen, everyone has their identity intact, they have the free will to remain idiots, no one is desperate to go out in the real world etc.

And they really dumbed down the main crew this time didn't they? No one is even trying to get memories back? After they found out that Emma stored them in dreamcatchers in 5x05? They were just waiting around to see if DS would return them I guess. Those stills of Emma gathering them up and then handing it out is pretty hilarious and campy. Not sure thats what the writers intended. Oh and Belle's books have stuff like breaking magic's sacred rules like time traveling and how to get rid of light magic but no memory retrieval stuff?

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They just use it strictly as ... and amnesia inducing

Well, according to spoilers, Emma is the one that erased their memories, not the curse. So it's not even good for that any more.

 

 

And they really dumbed down the main crew this time didn't they? No one is even trying to get memories back?

This came across my mind as well. Shouldn't they be working to break the curse somehow? I know Emma claimed there was no Savior built into it, but for all they know she could be bluffing. As Rumple says, "All curses can be broken!" Can't any of the fairy tale couples TLK... or you know... Regina cuz she's super specialz?

 

 

Those stills of Emma gathering them up and then handing it out is pretty hilarious and campy.

Unlike "redeemed" Regina, Emma returns stolen property. I don't see Regina handing out all the hearts from her vault any time soon.

Edited by KingOfHearts
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Emma is hanging the dreamcatchers in the clock tower!

Now why would she do this? She looks to be giving her family and the hangers-on their own personally. .if the Camelot people are at their camp it seems odd that she would give them back from the middle of town.

I know we are fairly certain the crashed clocktower is the UW but i am wondering if all the dreamcatchers have anything to do with all those cloaked figures ..liked released nightmares.....???

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In the stills, it looks like Henry gets his memory back first and then goes with Emma to Regina's office where everyone else gets theirs. It's interesting that Henry does not look particularly happy with Regina and is at Emma's side. I think maybe Team Hero did something not good that creates problems with Emma/Hook in Camelot. It's possible that they are the ones responsible for the cloaked Dark Ones running around town. Not that they did something deliberately, but whatever they were cooking up ended up with bad consequences. Is it possible that Hook cast the curse to get away from the cloak people?

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About the curse, does it even need breaking? Time isn't standing still, and the only ones concerned with this are the ones who travelled back from Camelot since they're missing their memories. Emma handing them the dreamcatchers should fill the holes in their memories.

The only thing I'm thinking right now is that since Emma isn't the one that cast the curse, then she may not have the power to break it.

Sneak peek. So it doesn't seem as though Hook comes out of there all cray cray as much as Clippy driving him nuts. And the thing he says about killing him, I'm assuming he's not talking about Dark One apparition Rumple as much as he's talking about the dude who is back in Storybrooke. That guy Hook could've killed when he was lying unconscious in his shop, and he didn't, .

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We pretty much knew that Emma took the memories not the curse -- Hook told us in Camelot that she was making them to pull people's memories out of their heads. And didn't the sneak peek + the episode summary just clue us in that Hook cast the curse so that he could get to Rumple for revenge? Henry does look very serious and upset at learning what went down in Camelot.

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Emma has all the tools she needs in Camelot to get rid of the darkness even after she goes full dark. And Nimue would know that Emma is determined to defeat the darkness to realize her dream of living with Hook and Henry in that house.

Emma needs Dark Hook on her side in that goal in order to get the darkness out of him as well. Does she figure out in Camelot that a life must be taken to do that? Just as she figured it out in SB?

Does someone volunteer to be that life (like Lancelot? Or Merlin?) and does the plan go all wrong because Dark Hook decides to kill Merlin and take them to SB to get his revenge instead? And does Merlin hijack the plan at the last second by putting the sword in the stone? Or does Emma's family screw up?

Or...since in Camelot we still don't know how the darkness was to be cut out of Emma...would Merlin have said -- surprise you have to die! -- after Emma re-forged the sword? Maybe that's what makes Dark!Hook go nuts in Camelot -- finding out that Merlin never shared that detail and Emma will die anyway so he feels betrayed and he decides to rip out Merlin's heart and take them to SB rather than have Emma die. He might decide 'what the hell Merlin has been lying to us all along about there being a way out of this mess so let's just go dark!' I'm liking this idea actually since it would parallel Hook going dark after Milah.

Or is pulling the darkness out a different process before you go full dark one than after?

There are two things that Merlin said -- he told Emma not to pull the sword from the stone which means that he foresaw all the way to them ending up in SB after failing in Camelot. So I think Merlin put the sword back in the stone to prevent the reappearance of Dark Hook in SB and the Dark One invasion -- especially since he also said that Emma could multiple the darkness when she created Dark Hook which is a reference to Nimue and the army of Dark Ones who become the unexpected threat in the last episode.

Edited by chrisvee
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