Aaron Hotchner: High and Tight

[Old Dog]

Mr Scratch aired again in the UK last night. I must confess to getting very teary over that stunning last shot of Hotch sitting in the back of the ambulance and staring right down the camera. I really do not think I'll be watching the show again, even for Matthew.

[Droogie]

1 hour ago, Old Dog said:

Mr Scratch aired again in the UK last night. I must confess to getting very teary over that stunning last shot of Hotch sitting in the back of the ambulance and staring right down the camera. I really do not think I'll be watching the show again, even for Matthew.

Thomas really was magnificent in that episode. I honestly don't know if I could ever rewatch it, now that you've mentioned it. That, and "100."

Edited August 21, 2016 by Droogie

[Droogie]

What I really, really (times infinity) do not understand is how Mandy Patinkin was allowed (begged, most likely) to film an exit arc for his character, albeit a short one. Yet in the case of Thomas Gibson, Hotch is just going to be gone. 

Maybe he can't come back to the set for legal reasons but it could've been done remotely. And it wouldn't have mattered if he actually wanted to take part after being fired, I don't think. The network could've forced his hand or found him in violation of his contract somehow if he refused to do so. 

And if this has already been discussed to death, my bad. The old short-term memory ain't what it used to be. 

[normasm]

Mandy was probably required tie up the last episode, Doubt, because Gideon the character, and Mandy the lead actor, was the crux of the show. He could have been sued. They were in serious doubt that they could pull off the rest of the season, and had to scramble mightily to do it. That those writers/producers accomplished that feat speaks volumes. If this crew manages to cobble together the rest of this season, I'll be surprised, but no matter what, it won't be the same. And if it does happen to get picked up for another season, all bets are off as to whether the entire cast will want to come back. I want Prentiss to go back to London at the end of her 6 episodes, and take Dr. Reid with her.

[ReidFan]

no. Prentiss can drop Dr Reid off in Toronto on her way back to London!

[Willowy]

2 hours ago, Droogie said:

Maybe he can't come back to the set for legal reasons but it could've been done remotely.

If I'm not mistaken, location shoots are still considered 'the set'. So if he's legally barred from the set that would include off-site shoots. 

I'd like to be able to see Hotch walk off into the sunset, I really would. 

[thewhiteowl]

I don't know for sure Hotch will not have a decent exit. It's just my prediction. I do know you can't please everyone all the time, so no matter what it is, some will not like it.  TG is the one who has brought this on us. I know my leg has never accidentally shot out to kick someone. If I did it, I meant it. So I have a hard time believing the "accident" theory. Possible but unlikely. I'm willing to entertain the fact that it could happen to others but not really buying that for a nickel. Just my opinion. 

[SSAHotchner]

6 hours ago, Old Dog said:

Mr Scratch aired again in the UK last night. I must confess to getting very teary over that stunning last shot of Hotch sitting in the back of the ambulance and staring right down the camera. I really do not think I'll be watching the show again, even for Matthew.

I'm with you. I will not watch without Hotch no matter what Thomas Gibson has done. I've only been hanging on to see him anyway. 

[Willowy]

26 minutes ago, SSAHotchner said:

I'm with you. I will not watch without Hotch no matter what Thomas Gibson has done. 

Are you serious here? I understand you objecting that your favorite character is gone, but no matter what he's done? He's endangered his co-workers and committed a crime. You can handwave that just so you can see the character Aaron Hotchner?

If by some miracle he was allowed back, all I would be able to see is Gibson. I think I'm angriest at him for that. That he's completely ruined Hotch for me. 

[SSAHotchner]

3 minutes ago, Franky said:

Are you serious here? I understand you objecting that your favorite character is gone, but no matter what he's done? He's endangered his co-workers and committed a crime. You can handwave that just so you can see the character Aaron Hotchner?

If by some miracle he was allowed back, all I would be able to see is Gibson. I think I'm angriest at him for that. That he's completely ruined Hotch for me. 

Yes, I'm serious. I don't want to watch Criminal Minds without the Hotch character, and I don't think about who Thomas Gibson is or what he has done when I watch. I think only of Hotch as Hotch. I'm not excusing TG's behavior or condoning it. I'm not saying I want to watch whatever TG does in the future. I'm only saying I will not watch Criminal Minds sans Hotch. And you are not supposed to call out other posters on their opinions, but rather only state your own. 

[Willowy]

Oh, sorry! That just really surprised me.

And I think we're allowed to comment on other's posts, right? Isn't that what a conversation is all about? If you say something inflammatory on a public forum, you aren't insulated against comments.

[ReidFan]

I like Hotch. But he won't make or break the show for me just like none of the others who've come and gone (and in Paget's case, come back again) before him. If it's written well enough (as the Gideon send off was), the remaining actors can once again knock it out of the park like Gubler, Vangsness and Gibson himself did in Nelson's Sparrow and the show can recover and carry on. I'll still watch it, if it's well done. 

And yes, I'd watch if Reid left too, again, as long as the send off was well done.

[WendyCR72]

Everyone relax. This is a place for discussion. People will disagree, but it is allowed here provided it is done in a respectful manner. In any case, time will tell how CM fares without Gibson.

Could tank. Could thrive! Until we all get a crystal ball, the result is a crapshoot.

[SSAHotchner]

34 minutes ago, Franky said:

Oh, sorry! That just really surprised me.

And I think we're allowed to comment on other's posts, right? Isn't that what a conversation is all about? If you say something inflammatory on a public forum, you aren't insulated against comments.

Yes, you can discuss posts and it's okay to have different opinions but when you say, "Are you serious?" it implies that you think I'm nuts and wrong. It's okay for you to think that, but to say it here borders on criticizing me, the poster, rather than just saying you disagree. That's all I'm saying. I get that there are people on both sides of the TG situation and every place in between. While I think a number of shows have done replacements of main characters really well, MASH and Cheers and even Law & Order SVU come to mind, I don't want to watch CM without Hotch. For me the show has been horrible for several seasons now. TG leaving under any circumstances just provided the impetus for me to quit watching. But I certainly wish all the remaining actors well and I don't have objection or hard feelings toward anyone here who enjoys the show and continues to watch. 

[JMO]

Honestly, SSAH, I've kind of felt the same way about Reid for a couple of years now.  I'll stay for him, but the show has so lost its luster, that I almost wish he'd left.  

Once upon a time, the quality of the writing might have retained many people who were primarily fans of a single character or actor.  That was certainly true of me, years ago.  Hooked by Reid, then reeled in by the quality of the show as a whole.  But, in my opinion, those days have long since come and gone.  Now, with rare exception, I enjoy the show only because of Reid (hence the Reid-meter), and if he were leaving, my enjoyment would leave with him.  If I no longer find the show enjoyable, why in the world would I watch?

I suspect we'll lose a number of Morgan/Shemar fans this season, followed by a larger number of Hotch/TG fans.  Whether they decide to stay or go is entirely up to them.  I certainly wouldn't expect them to spend any time at all with a leisure activity that no longer brings them pleasure.

In other places, I've seen pronouncements that such fans 'aren't true CM fans.'  Begging the question of who is.  Because, no matter why someone has watched it, they have each contributed to its viewership, and own part of the credit for its still being on the air.  

[SSAHotchner]

JMO, I love Reid, too, and I really think he deserves so much better than what he's been getting from season 6 on. I would love to see him get a fantastic role in a film or on another series. I know MGG feels a certain debt of gratitude toward CM for being his first big role, but I think that debt has been long paid and he should move on. BTW, Reid was my first love on CM and I grew to love Hotch later on. I love seeing the two of them together like in LDSK. 

[JMO]

Love the Hotch/Reid relationship. It's a big part of what I'll miss. 

[SparedTurkey]

I'm surprised by the excuses being made for TG's behaviour. Mental illness, provocation, that we shouldn't judge because we weren't there. Regardless of the opinions of the writer, you don't get to hit someone. If you don't like someone at work, ignore them or beat them by being better. Professionally or personally, you don't get to be violent because for any reason (I mean, obviously there is self-defence but that's separate and not relevant to this issue).

I liked Hotch. And (Dharma and) Greg. I think TG was good in the role. But he did what he did and that's that.

I wonder what the reactions would have been had AJ Cook been the one to kick someone and get fired. I bet she wouldn't have been excused for it like TG

[smoker]

2 hours ago, SparedTurkey said:

I'm surprised by the excuses being made for TG's behaviour. Mental illness, provocation, that we shouldn't judge because we weren't there. Regardless of the opinions of the writer, you don't get to hit someone. If you don't like someone at work, ignore them or beat them by being better. Professionally or personally, you don't get to be violent because for any reason (I mean, obviously there is self-defence but that's separate and not relevant to this issue).

I liked Hotch. And (Dharma and) Greg. I think TG was good in the role. But he did what he did and that's that.

I wonder what the reactions would have been had AJ Cook been the one to kick someone and get fired. I bet she wouldn't have been excused for it like TG

Actually, it is relevant because it's been said TG felt threatened and the intention matters. Anyway, none of us have been a witness. We are sharing opinions and speculations. 

Personally, I have never said he didn't diserve a punishment, but I disagree with the way things have been done. It has been negative for every person and company involved. I don't know how that opinion (and similar ones) makes any excuses. It's obvious there are unknown details. Moreover, it's pretty weird they made the dismissal announcement the day after the suspension announcement. They could have waited to say something final, we didn't need to know he was suspended while the incident was investigated.

On the second matter, I am confident that AJ Cook or any other actor would have generated the same reaction. 

Edited August 22, 2016 by smoker

[autumnmountains]

2 hours ago, SparedTurkey said:

I'm surprised by the excuses being made for TG's behaviour. Mental illness, provocation, that we shouldn't judge because we weren't there. Regardless of the opinions of the writer, you don't get to hit someone. If you don't like someone at work, ignore them or beat them by being better. Professionally or personally, you don't get to be violent because for any reason (I mean, obviously there is self-defence but that's separate and not relevant to this issue).

I liked Hotch. And (Dharma and) Greg. I think TG was good in the role. But he did what he did and that's that.

I wonder what the reactions would have been had AJ Cook been the one to kick someone and get fired. I bet she wouldn't have been excused for it like TG

Exactly! There a several people at my job who make my very blood boil,but hitting,kicking, etc is inexcusable. I get it, he's a popular person, but other people shouldn't have to put up with behavior like that.

 

Just a little disclaimer per your last statement, I can't stand JJ, but have no issues regarding AJ. 

[smoker]

keep comparing our jobs and their jobs is useless, entertainment business doesn't rule like the working class world. It's sad and wrong, but if these behaviours are allowed is because these companies are indulgent with them, they make them gain a lot of money and they look to the other side. I'm not speaking about this incident now, but about any star and celebrity bad behaviour.

Edited August 22, 2016 by smoker

[autumnmountains]

2 hours ago, smoker said:

keep comparing our jobs and their jobs is useless

Well, in my opinion, if we keep comparing them and studios finally say "enough!" to all the bull that goes on,  things will change.  No disrespect to you though.

Edited August 22, 2016 by autumnmountains

[smoker]

None taken and I think these things should change too, always and not only when they are doing damage control.

Edited August 22, 2016 by smoker

[SparedTurkey]

Quote

Actually, it is relevant because it's been said TG felt threatened and the intention matters. Anyway, none of us have been a witness. We are sharing opinions and speculations. 

Said by whom exactly? Sounds like more opinion and speculation to me. Presumably if it was self-defence the other person involved would have been suspended or fired also. Suspension while an investigation goes on sounds pretty standard to me, regardless of whether the person gets fired or not. I'm not seeing anything shady involved with the studio's statements other than proving some kind of due dilligence was done. Yes it sucks for everyone but I'm glad actions have consequences. Even in Hollywood. My opinion is that there is a lot of excusing of TG's behaviour based on the fandom's opinions that don't hold water. He wasn't fired for nothing and that is the bottom line.

Quote

keep comparing our jobs and their jobs is useless, entertainment business doesn't rule like the working class world. It's sad and wrong, but if these behaviours are allowed is because these companies are indulgent with them, they make them gain a lot of money and they look to the other side. I'm not speaking about this incident now, but about any star and celebrity bad behaviour.

Except this behaviour wasn't allowed. Charlie Sheen's wasn't. Clearly there is some kind of change happening even when money is involved.

[Willowy]

18 minutes ago, SparedTurkey said:

He wasn't fired for nothing and that is the bottom line.

 

Agree.

[smoker]

26 minutes ago, SparedTurkey said:

Said by whom exactly? Sounds like more opinion and speculation to me. Presumably if it was self-defence the other person involved would have been suspended or fired also. Suspension while an investigation goes on sounds pretty standard to me, regardless of whether the person gets fired or not. I'm not seeing anything shady involved with the studio's statements other than proving some kind of due dilligence was done. Yes it sucks for everyone but I'm glad actions have consequences. Even in Hollywood. My opinion is that there is a lot of excusing of TG's behaviour based on the fandom's opinions that don't hold water. He wasn't fired for nothing and that is the bottom line.

Except this behaviour wasn't allowed. Charlie Sheen's wasn't. Clearly there is some kind of change happening even when money is involved.

....and more opinions and speculations....

Hollywood is not going to change, the unlucky bastards who are a potential loss of money in the middle of a damage control situation are fired... and that's another opinion. Mine.

I don't see anyone casting stones to Christian Bale for being aggressive both physically and verbally while he is working. Why isn't he fired? I've alredy answered myself. Money.

Edited August 22, 2016 by smoker

[ForeverAlone]

Oh, there was plenty of ire directed toward Christian Bale for his on set behavior. Now whether or not he is like this all the time on set, is another question and more of a question for anyone who hires him in the future. But Christian didn't work for the same bosses. Thomas's bosses made a decision to fire him for his behavior on set. He certainly isn't the first person to be fired for on set behavior, and he won't be the last. 

[Willowy]

Right, I keep seeing comparisons to the Top Gear debacle where the main guy struck a producer. Fired. 

I think part of it has to do not necessarily with right or wrong (because who are we kidding, the studios don't give a whit about that), but in how litigious our society is, now. Studios have to legally cover their asses to protect against someone yelling "SUE!" at the drop of a hat, so they adopt a zero tolerance policy on 'workplace violence', for instance. 

If this was 30 years ago the studio would've put up a boxing ring in the parking lot and let the two men go at it. 

[secnarf]

11 hours ago, SparedTurkey said:

I wonder what the reactions would have been had AJ Cook been the one to kick someone and get fired. I bet she wouldn't have been excused for it like TG

Sadly, I agree with you. I believe there would have been the screaming facebook/twitter people who can't spell to save their lives, who would be outraged, but I think physical violence from AJC would be perceived differently and people would be less likely to "excuse" it - and I used quotation marks because I'm not really sure that's the right word for it, but there do seem to be a lot of people who don't think he should have been fired.

8 hours ago, autumnmountains said:

Just a little disclaimer per your last statement, I can't stand JJ, but have no issues regarding AJ. 

From what I have seen, you would be the exception rather than the rule. I mean, you have the aforementioned screaming facebook/twitter people, who generally can't differentiate actors and characters, but also, it's a hard thing to do, even though cognitively you know they're separate. It's difficult not to see the actor as the character they portray, especially if you've only seen them in one thing, or in one role for a very long time. I suspect that's part of the reason some people disagree with TG's firing as well - not so much because they'll miss the character of Hotch, but because this sort of behaviour is not at all what you would expect from Hotch and so it's easier to feel like it's a one-off and not in keeping with TG's personality as well, when really, we don't actually know his personality very well at all.

39 minutes ago, SparedTurkey said:

Said by whom exactly? Sounds like more opinion and speculation to me. Presumably if it was self-defence the other person involved would have been suspended or fired also. Suspension while an investigation goes on sounds pretty standard to me, regardless of whether the person gets fired or not.

It's been reported multiple times by people who supposedly know these things (either were there or are TG's "people"). I'd certainly not take it at face value, and I agree that the outcome of this situation doesn't support a self-defense situation.

I don't think that TG was suspended while an investigation was occurring, though. They suspended him for two weeks - a defined period of time - not "during the investigation". To me, it seems like there was some sort of investigation (how thorough is anyone's guess), TG was suspended, it was made public, and around that time something happened - whether higher-ups had continued to investigate, there were threats of lawsuits, or something else entirely - and TG ended up being fired.

On that note - the public was not informed of his suspension until after it had happened, and it was a two-week suspension. Anyone know what the time lag on that was? In other words, did he have a chance to return to set between the suspension and firing? Do we know for sure or are we speculating? My impression is that he went straight from suspension to fired, but I don't think that's actually based on fact, just my impression of events since it was only a day or so between the public finding out about the suspension and then firing.

[ForeverAlone]

Episode three filming should have been 2-11 August. Thomas must have been suspended no later than 1 August, just to give enough time to write Hotch out of that episode. It looked like he was on set 10 August for the cast photo (the same day Aisha was announced as a series regular), and then his suspension was publicly announced on 11 August, and he was fired on 12 August. So basically he was out for all of episode three and fired at the start of episode four, and I can't see him actually being on set for actual filming after he was suspended. 

Edited August 22, 2016 by ForeverAlone

[Willowy]

You're probably right about the cast photo, although Matthew has a habit of tweeting things after the fact, so do we think the photo was actually taken that day? It could have ostensibly been taken the previous week. Also, pics have to be cleared before they're made public and though I don't know how long that process takes, I imagine it would be at least a few days to get everyone to sign off on it. 

[ReidFan]

12 minutes ago, Franky said:

You're probably right about the cast photo, although Matthew has a habit of tweeting things after the fact, so do we think the photo was actually taken that day? It could have ostensibly been taken the previous week. Also, pics have to be cleared before they're made public and though I don't know how long that process takes, I imagine it would be at least a few days to get everyone to sign off on it. 

yes, he does. and we're probably the reason for that :) .... when he was away last October, he tweeted pictures of a lot of his goings-on, but never until afterwards, probably to avoid people stampeding to go see him. 

[Willowy]

Right, when he was in Japan, too. And that 'flag face' pic at Swifty's. And any gala dinners he attends (red dinner jacket? *sighhh*). Though I'm pretty sure that's his publicist putting those out.

[ForeverAlone]

Based on Karen Maser's tweet, it looks like the main cast photo was taken on 9 August. So Matthew posted it only the day after it was taken. 

[wknt3]

On 8/21/2016 at 4:14 PM, WendyCR72 said:

Everyone relax. This is a place for discussion. People will disagree, but it is allowed here provided it is done in a respectful manner. In any case, time will tell how CM fares without Gibson.

Could tank. Could thrive! Until we all get a crystal ball, the result is a crapshoot.

As we say in my business "past performance does not guarantee future results" but based on the last few seasons I would probably phrase it as "Could tank. Could be adequate with flashes of goodness. Who knows I guess maybe it might even thrive?" Of course I would have said that before all this went down too.

[ReidFan]

24 minutes ago, ForeverAlone said:

Based on Karen Maser's tweet, it looks like the main cast photo was taken on 9 August. So Matthew posted it only the day after it was taken. 

at which time I suppose, Thomas had served his suspension and hadn't yet been fired?

[ForeverAlone]

No, Thomas hadn't been fired yet. He was still serving his suspension (we know it was at least one episode suspension, but we also heard it might have been a two episode suspension), and his firing was announced three days later. 

[Willowy]

2 hours ago, ForeverAlone said:

Based on Karen Maser's tweet, it looks like the main cast photo was taken on 9 August. So Matthew posted it only the day after it was taken. 

Okay, apologies but I'm still not sure of the day. Did Maser tweet it on the 9th, or say it was taken on the 9th?

[ReidFan]

Her Twitter says the photo shoot was the 9th.  Matthew tweeted the photo on the 10th

[JMO]

Just judging from his past behavior, I think it's highly unlikely MGG would have tweeted the cast picture (from behind) if he'd already known that Thomas was gone.  I also don't think he would have done it if he'd even considered Thomas' being fired to be a remote possibility.  So I think it was a surprise to the cast (or, at least, MGG) that the suspension was about to become a dismissal.  

[Willowy]

I was wondering too, if the positioning of the pic was some sort of cryptic message. All their backs turned to us. And if so, what?

It's an unusual shot, at the very least. I can't remember any other cast pic being released that way. At least not without others that were normal, as in shot from the front.

Fully aware here that I could be making nothing out of nothing. :)

[ForeverAlone]

This wasn't some official cast photo reveal, but Matthew just posting a behind the scenes photo from an interesting angle. 

[Willowy]

Like he's wont to do. But it still had to be approved.

[ForeverAlone]

I doubt he needed to get approval to post that shot. I mean, it wasn't official, revealing or spoilery or anything, and it wasn't the actual cast photo. In the past, I've seen many casual social media posts of behind the scenes photos of the cast photoshoot. 

[Willowy]

Anything coming out of the shoot has to be approved before it's made public. 

Unless Matthew just sneaked (snuck) it out, which I wouldn't put past him. :)

[ReidFan]

Well considering that he is IN the picture it was obviously taken by someone else. BJ Rogers also tweeted out a similar photo so I doubt any sort of approval was required 

[Willowy]

*throws hands in air*

Of course, you're absolutely correct. How silly of me to have even suggested it. In any case, such a small thing is definitely not worth arguing over. :/

[senin]

I read this somewhere (I don't remember where) and I thought it was really expressing my feelings 

Title of the thread:Criminal Minds looking to add 2 characters to replace Hotch

Reply: Yes, it will take 2 to fill the void he leaves 

[BW Manilowe]

Thomas gives his side of the story regarding what led up to his firing to People magazine.

http://www.people.com/article/thomas-gibson-talks-firing-from-cbs-criminal-mind?xid=socialflow_twitter_peoplemag

[Willowy]

Hmm.

Thanks for sharing that, BW Manilowe!