Ratings and Scheduling: Hail to the Gods

[apinknightmare]

15 minutes ago, wonderwall said:

YIKES! Arrow ratings:

Well Olicity is obviously killing the show since the ratings went way up after their break-....wait.

[AyChihuahua]

2 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

Except it's not about story choices and more about what they're airing against-- the NBA playoffs, which started on April 16th and the Survivor Finale last night.

If that's the only reason, then I'm sure they all understand that.

Realistically I think they have lost some viewers bc of killing Laurel, but I think they knew and planned for that. I personally am losing interest bc of continuing story issues (for me all the way from S3...it's cumulative).

[NumberCruncher]

Nuts!  Stupid basketball (I'm kidding).  Pre-emptions suck.

[lemotomato]

http://www.nielsensocial.com/nielsentwittertvratings/daily/

[dtissagirl]

22 minutes ago, apinknightmare said:

Well Olicity is obviously killing the show since the ratings went way up after their break-....wait.

Trivia!  The total viewers drop between 415 and 416 is the third highest in the history of Arrow: 610K viewers.

The top two week-by-week drops involved the crossovers: 308 ---> 309 [860k], and 408 ---> 409 [840k]. 415 ---> 416 took third place from the drop between the pilot and 102, which was 590k.

Congratulations on breaking up your main pairing and then going into a month long hiatus, Arrow!

[CabotCove]

Quote

t makes sense from a monetary standpoint to not spend the money for magically steady show in its 5th season, but to be the only DC show on the network with significantly less promotion just gives off the vibe of being uncaring or even embarrassed of Arrow. 

What less promos?, I always see Arrow get comic previews, multiple sneek peeks,  producer previews week after week, than any CW superhero show.  If anything Arrow is too over-spoiled online. We dont have a spoiler or media thread with a 1000s over at Flash forum, because there is hardly anything given away.  

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, WildcardC said:

What less promos?, I always see Arrow get comic previews, multiple sneek peeks,  producer previews week after week, than any CW superhero show.  If anything Arrow is too over-spoiled online. We dont have a spoiler or media thread with a 1000s over at Flash forum, because there is hardly anything given away.  

I don't think we're just talking about online promo here. The majority of the audience don't belong to the online fandom and they rely on promo on the network. And I distinctly remember watching during the hiatus after both 415 and 418 and seeing only LoT and Flash promos and none for Arrow. Even people here weren't sure when the show was returning. 

Edited May 19, 2016 by Guest

[Midnight Lullaby]

12 minutes ago, WildcardC said:

What less promos?, I always see Arrow get comic previews, multiple sneek peeks,  producer previews week after week, than any CW superhero show.  If anything Arrow is too over-spoiled online. We dont have a spoiler or media thread with a 1000s over at Flash forum, because there is hardly anything given away.  

Posters, new promotional pics, interviews...the CW announced they were going to give a boost to all their shows in the second season (Flash included) and obviously the new pilots always get promoted more. Most of us watch or follow what Arrow, Flash and LoT are doing so the comparison is inevitable.

[CabotCove]

Quote

And I distinctly remember watching during the hiatus after both 415 and 418 and seeing only LoT and Flash promos and none of Arrow.

Fair enough, no further comment on that as I dont watch most CW shows, so dont get to see what gets the most promos.  

Edited May 19, 2016 by WildcardC

[lemotomato]

35 minutes ago, WildcardC said:

What less promos?, I always see Arrow get comic previews, multiple sneek peeks,  producer previews week after week, than any CW superhero show.  If anything Arrow is too over-spoiled online. We dont have a spoiler or media thread with a 1000s over at Flash forum, because there is hardly anything given away.  

Were you not aware that Flash has its own 30 minute preview show before every new episode that's produced by The CW? Did you also know that the network maintains a Tumblr page called The Chronicles of Cisco that frequently gets updated? 

Meanwhile, Arrow gets the bare minimum of promotion that all the CW DC shows get-- comic preview, one producer's preview, two sneak peeks, episode stills. On several occasions, especially the last 2 months, they weren't released until right before the episode, way later than for other shows. Not to mention how the CW_arrow twitter account is 75% Flash and Lot, 25% Arrow. And how Arrow promos on TV get shown at far less frequency than Flash and LoT. It doesn't regularly get a series of pre-show tweets like Berlanti does for every Flash episode. 

If the spoilers and media thread here in the Arrow forum is busier, it's only because we have more people scrounging for tidbits, sharing them, and discussing them. Not because there's more Arrow content available.

Edited May 19, 2016 by lemotomato

[Carrie Ann]

Quote

We dont have a spoiler or media thread with a 1000s over at Flash forum, because there is hardly anything given away. 

Nah, the reason there isn't a spoiler/media thread with thousands of posts in the Flash forum is simply because that forum isn't as active:

In this forum, posters pretty meticulously post every scrap we can find (thanks, friends), and much of it isn't network-created.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Carrie Ann

[foreverevolving]

If I didn't know any better I'd think the CW is trying to kill Arrow.

[CabotCove]

Quote

Were you not aware that Flash has it's own 30 minute preview show before every new episode that's produced by The CW? 

No I wasnt, when did CW fantalk stop being about all CW shows? Didnt they use to have Vampire Diaries cast on that.

Quote

Did you also know that the network maintains a Tumblr page called The Chronicles of Cisco that frequently gets updated? 

LOL noone ever talks about this. I would say the one time Olicity road trip pics were more effective promos than this blog. Marc G also has a Tumbrl Blog

Quote

Not to mention how the CW_arrow twitter account is 75% Flash and Lot, 25% Arrow. 

[Edited by mod: tone.] exaggeration, just been there https://twitter.com/CW_Arrow/with_replies, there is like 1 LOT/Flash retweet for every 5 Arrow posts.

Edited May 24, 2016 by MuuMuuChainsmoker

[lemotomato]

8 minutes ago, WildcardC said:

No I wasnt, when did CW fantalk stop being about all CW shows? 

LOL noone ever talks about this. I would say the one time Olicity road trip pics were more effective promos than this. 

CW Fantalk became the Flash pre-show this season. 

And just because that tumblr doesn't get talked about doesn't negate the fact that it's produced and supported by the network for Flash. Something that Arrow doesn't have, and never got, even during their Season 2. 

MG being semi-active on twitter/tumblr, and for that matter SA's activeness in social media, does not make up for the fact that the CW neglects Arrow to the point of insult.

Edited May 19, 2016 by lemotomato

[NumberCruncher]

2 minutes ago, WildcardC said:

No I wasnt, when did CW fantalk stop being about all CW shows? 

LOL noone ever talks about this. I would say the one time Olicity road trip pics were more effective promos than this blog. Marc G also has a Tumbrl Blog

Marc does link his Twitter posts to his Tumblr, but he hasn't interacted with fans in months so I'm not sure that really counts since his Twitter account isn't 100% Arrow--it also promotes his comic book activity, LoT, and whatever other randomness he feels like.

[quarks]

15 minutes ago, WildcardC said:

Fair enough, no further comment on that as I dont watch most CW shows, so dont get to see what gets the most promos.  

Yeah, it's a bit more obvious if you're watching the CW live on Thursday night during Legends of Tomorrow and The 100. Neither show is doing as well as Arrow or Flash is in ratings/demos, and some brands agreed to withdraw ads during The 100 and air them on alternative evenings on the CW.  As a result, Thursday night - which should be the CW's biggest ad night - is having difficulty selling out its ad space and is running promos for the rest of its shows instead.  Most of them get at least two, and sometimes up to six promos, with two exceptions: Arrow, which usually gets at most one, if any, and Reign, which typically only gets one brief promo to remind us all that its costume department continues to have Interesting Ideas about what people wore in the 16th century. 

I don't think that the CW is trying to kill Arrow. I just think that the understaffed promo department is focused on maintaining high ratings/viewers for its top show, The Flash, and trying to keep its lower rated/viewed shows from sinking still further.  Arrow and Supernatural,  as seasoned shows with relatively steady numbers, aren't as major concerns.

[Starfish35]

Quote

and Reign, which typically only gets one brief promo to remind us all that its costume department continues to have Interesting Ideas about what people wore in the 16th century. 

Hahahaha accurate. :)

[CabotCove]

Quote

CW Fantalk became the Flash pre-show this season.

Well that was lame, the show be more funnier and get more buzz if it was about all network shows. How is that a foreign network can get it right but they cant. 

I get where people are coming from about offline & network mandated promotionals, but I disagree thats it all bleak on Arrow. They are loved by foreign & online media. They still got the upperhand on that. Gonna agree to disagree.

[Guest]

UK promo doesn't help US ratings though, does it?

[dtissagirl]

13 minutes ago, WildcardC said:

I get where people are coming from about offline & network mandated promotionals, but I disagree thats it all bleak on Arrow. They are loved by foreign & online media. They still got the upperhand on that. Gonna agree to disagree.

This is not true everywhere. The DC superhero shows are broadcast in Latin America by Warner Brothers. They own the freaking channel, it's called The Warner Channel.

They took Arrow off the schedule and put LoT in the spot. So they're more or less current on Flash, Supergirl, Gotham and LoT, running 2-3 episodes behind the US max. Arrow S4 hasn't aired a single episode.

[BkWurm1]

36 minutes ago, dtissagirl said:

This is not true everywhere. The DC superhero shows are broadcast in Latin America by Warner Brothers. They own the freaking channel, it's called The Warner Channel.

They took Arrow off the schedule and put LoT in the spot. So they're more or less current on Flash, Supergirl, Gotham and LoT, running 2-3 episodes behind the US max. Arrow S4 hasn't aired a single episode.

Well that sucks.  I'd like to spin it that the viewership was so great that they knew it could stand alone later but ouch. 

[wonderwall]

1 hour ago, WildcardC said:

I get where people are coming from about offline & network mandated promotionals, but I disagree thats it all bleak on Arrow. They are loved by foreign & online media. They still got the upperhand on that. Gonna agree to disagree.

Most people on this board are more concerned about what the CW does because US viewership/ratings is what the network primarily looks at, everything abroad isn't as important. And foreign media hardly makes a dent on US viewership. I agree that Sky1 >>>> CW though. CW can't even handle their own twitter accounts for their shows. Pretty much need to fire all the (lackluster)  interns who handle twitter and hire new fresh creative ones with actual enthusiasm for the show...

Edited May 20, 2016 by wonderwall

[Morena]

season 2                                                                            season 4

2.07: 1.01(demo) 2.65M                                                  4.07: 1.10(demo) 2.67M

2.08: 1.18(demo) 3.24M First Barry appearance           4.08: 1.38(demo) 3.66M - crossover with Flash

2.09: 1.06(demo) 3.02M Barry appearance                    4.09: 1.01(demo) 2.82M

2.10: 0.94(demo) 2.51M                                                  4.10: 1.09(demo) 2.82M      

2.11: 0.86(demo) 2.49M                                                  4.11: 1.07(demo) 2.77M

2.12: 1.10(demo) 2.95M                                                  4.12: 0.92(demo) 2.47M

2.13: 1.01(demo) 2.86M                                                  4.13: 0.92(demo) 2.45M

2.14: 0.85(demo) 2.44M                                                  4.14: 0.91(demo) 2.44M

2.15: 0.75(demo) 2.21M                                                  4.15: 1.02(demo) 2.69M

2.16: 0.82(demo) 2.41M                                                  4.16: 0.72(demo) 2.09M

2.17: 0.90(demo) 2.62M                                                 4.17: 0.86(demo) 2.34M

2.18: 0.79(demo) 2.32M                                                 4.18: 0.79(demo) 2.24M

2.19: 0.70(demo) 2.26M                                                 4.19: 0.88(demo) 2.27M

2.20: 0.69(demo) 2.19M                                                 4.20: 0.75(demo) 2.07M

2.21: 0.80(demo) 2.31M                                                 4.21: 0.77(demo) 2.16M

2.22: 0.70(demo) 2.33M                                                 4.22: 0.70 (demo)1.94M

Edited May 20, 2016 by Morena

[way2interested]

Is that what people meant by wanting s4 to be like s2?

Edited May 20, 2016 by way2interested

[Morena]

could someone tell me if it got preempted early this season?in Chicago or another city?.

[looptab]

How did 212 and 213 get those ratings? :D

[tv echo]

At the end of the day, no one knows exactly why the ratings are what they are, but everyone can have their own opinion.  IMO, the big problems with S4 were the Baby Mama Drama (and its repercussions) and the increasingly dark tone of the show as the season progressed (though not saying Arrow should be as light and fluffy as The Flash). Unlike the more fantastical, potentially world-ending threats on the other superhero shows, a nuke drop is too close to a real world possibility to wave off as tv entertainment.

It could also be argued that the success of The Flash hurt Arrow by introducing superpowers to their shared universe and encouraging the EPs to add more comic book characters/elements to both shows.  Arrow started out as a drama grounded in reality that just happened to be about a DC Comics hero called the Green Arrow.  Now there's metahumans and magic, as well as the increasing undermining of Arrow and the Green Arrow.

Edited May 20, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Comparison of superhero tv show ratings this week:

Gotham (FOX) - 1.3 and 3.84 (final)
Flash (CW) - 1.3 and 3.37 (final)
Agents of SHIELD (ABC) (two-hour season finale) - 1.0 and 3.03 (both hours) (final)
Arrow (CW) - 0.7 and 1.94 (final)
LoT (CW) (season finale) - 0.7 and 1.85 (final)

Last week:

Gotham (FOX) - 1.2 and 4.67 (final)
Flash (CW) - 1.3 and 3.52 (final)
Agents of SHIELD (ABC) - 0.9 and 2.93 (final)
Arrow (CW) - 0.8 and 2.16 (final)
LoT (CW) - 0.7 and 1.89 (final)

Edited May 20, 2016 by tv echo

[tv echo]

Good read over at @SmoaknArrow about recent ratings...
http://smoakandarrow.tumblr.com/post/144663388089/there-are-some-in-the-fandom-are-freaking-out-over

Edited May 20, 2016 by tv echo

[lemotomato]

21 minutes ago, tv echo said:

Comparison of superhero tv show ratings this week:

Gotham (FOX) - 1.3 and 3.84 (final)
Flash (CW) - 1.3 and 3.37 (final)
Agents of SHIELD (ABC) (two-hour season finale) - 1.0 and 3.03 (both hours) (final)
Arrow (CW) - 0.7 and 1.94 (final)
LoT (CW) (season finale) - 0.7 and 1.85 (final)

Last week:

Gotham (FOX) - 1.2 and 4.67 (final)
Flash (CW) - 1.3 and 3.52 (final)
Agents of SHIELD (ABC) - 0.9 and 2.93 (final)
Arrow (CW) - 0.8 and 2.16 (final)
LoT (CW) - 0.7 and 1.89 (final)

I'm glad my prediction about the LoT finale turned out to be untrue, although they did tie in demos.

[Morrigan2575]

34 minutes ago, lemotomato said:

I'm glad my prediction about the LoT finale turned out to be untrue, although they did tie in demos.

and Arrow only had to lose the 3rd largest market for that to happen...

[CabotCove]

On 5/19/2016 at 0:14 AM, Angel12d said:

UK promo doesn't help US ratings though, does it?

I NEVER said it does. But im sure International broadcasting is another source of revenue. 

Quote

Good read over at @SmoaknArrow about recent ratings...
http://smoakandarrow.tumblr.com/post/144663388089/there-are-some-in-the-fandom-are-freaking-out-over

She misses the point that Ad money will be reduced based on previous year ratings. And no twitter ratings dont count to that. It maybe a tiny drop but why would they be OK to lose a bit of money (That goes for all shows even The Flash). Every cent still counts even in the multi-revenue strategy. But yeah good for Arrow I guess, its not a gigantic flop like Crazy ex gf and half of other CW shows. 

Edited May 20, 2016 by WildcardC

[AyChihuahua]

32 minutes ago, WildcardC said:

But yeah good for Arrow I guess, its not a gigantic flop like Crazy ex gf. 

It's STILL the second-highest rated show on the ENTIRE NETWORK. In its FOURTH year. Higher than its larger-budget spinoff in its FIRST year.  That's a whole lot better than "not a gigantic flop."

[CabotCove]

Quote

 That's a whole lot better than "not a gigantic flop."

Its not a gigantic flop therefore, I said its not a gigantic flop. Yes I'm aware what number Arrow is but it also does 0-7-0.8  a lot now. Also aware there is big gap between #1 & #2 ratings on the network. If Flash starts doing 0.7-0.9s and is still number #1 on a network with a cesspool of shows, well I wouldn't applaud it just because yay #1. It would be the best of the worst. Yeah LOT ratings are terrible for first year, but for the "culture of flops" CW is currently cultivating, its doing good-ish:).  

Edited May 21, 2016 by WildcardC

[AyChihuahua]

3 minutes ago, WildcardC said:

Its not a gigantic flop there I said its not a gigantic flop. Yes I'm aware what number Arrow is but it also does 0-7-0.8  a lot now. Also aware there is growing gap between #1 & #2 ratings on the network. If Flash starts doing 0.7-0.8s and is still number #1 on a network with a cesspool of shows, well I wouldn't applaud it just because yay #1. It would be the best of the worst. Yeah LOT ratings are terrible for first year, but for the "culture of flops" CW is currently cultivating, its doing good-ish:).  

Thus my comment that it's a whole lot better than not a gigantic flop? As in, your comparison of a not-even actual gigantic flop that got a second season to the second-highest rated show on the entire network is entirely disingenuous. That's like saying "At least Brad Pitt is better looking than Jesse Eisenberg." Because, of course, Brad Pitt is orders of magnitude better looking than Jesse Eisenberg, so the attempt at near-equating the two is absurd.

And I'm sure Guggie's crying into his beer that Arrow went from the second-highest rated show on the entire network to...the second-highest rated show on the entire network.

[NumberCruncher]

2 minutes ago, WildcardC said:

Its not a gigantic flop there I said its not a gigantic flop. Yes I'm aware what number Arrow is but it also does 0-7-0.8  a lot now. 

Which is exactly where it was for the same episodes at this time back in S2 (see Morena's post above comparing the two seasons).  These ratings are normal for Arrow in the springtime so I'm not really sure why they are being used to imply that Arrow's ratings are low.  I fully expect that ratings will jump back up in the fall just like they have for the past 4 years.

Also, as has been discussed ad nauseam, 4x22's total viewership in the live ratings are artificially low because they lost the #3 market in the U.S.  Yet, even despite that, the demo was...exactly the same as it was two seasons ago (0.7) for 2x22.

[AyChihuahua]

It's funny to me, because I hated very nearly every story choice Arrow made in S3. HATED them. Went from loving Oliver to very nearly hating his guts. Have complained about the ginormous plot holes ad infinitum. But it has never occurred to me to say S3 ratings were bad bc, well, they weren't. I accept that the audience at large was fine with those story choices, as evidenced by the perfectly good ratings. That is a fact, which horrifies me, but I nevertheless accept as true...because it IS true. 

[CabotCove]

Quote

As in, your comparison of a not-even actual gigantic flop that got a second season to the second-highest rated show on the entire network is entirely disingenuous.

Well I consider CeG to be a giant flop as half of other CW shows  (stated above), I feel there is isn't a much bigger gap between 0.3 -0.7 or 0.1-0.5, yeah, to me if you start getting that low then I believe anything can happen. This is my true feelings and Im sticking to it, its my truth. If you feel its ingenious well thats how you feel.

And Im not sure how to rate Jesse, as for Bratt Pitt, I find that i do not agree with the world that he is so pretty. 

Quote

These ratings are normal for Arrow in the springtime so I'm not really sure why they are being used to imply that Arrow's ratings are low.  I fully expect that ratings will jump back up in the fall just like they have for the past 4 years.

Fair enough point.

But I believe that once a show starts getting certain numbers, then it can become the new normal to be in that range. From my experience shows are likely to downward spiral than upward spiral from current ratings. There are some few shows and SPN, that totally shatter this belief, of course. Arrow s3 was higher but i think it might have had something to do with The Flash debuting & crossovers boosting ratings a bit, I feel that season 2 second half was awful anyway, so it wasnt hard to top it. I feel Slade was done terribly, so I'm never on board when some people want that season back and say its the best. It had its moments of course.

Edited May 21, 2016 by WildcardC

[catrox14]

57 minutes ago, WildcardC said:

. It would be the best of the worst. Yeah LOT ratings are terrible for first year, but for the "culture of flops" CW is currently cultivating, its doing good-ish:).  

I don't understand why you are saying it's a culture of flops.  The CW has a different baseline for it's shows than bigger networks.

[CabotCove]

Quote

 The CW has a different baseline for it's shows than bigger networks.

Its getting lower and lower, they cancelled Star crossed/Cult at 0.2, and now a 0.2 gets you renewal in March. Great for those shows and their workers, but who is paying for their budget, I bet they burden the top shows (Flash/Arrow/SPN) to finance these flops . Cutting away budgets thats already been cut from previous years, due to slight drop in ratings,

Edited May 21, 2016 by WildcardC

[lemotomato]

The CW doesn't do well in overnight ratings, but makes up for it in their +7 numbers. Just looking a random week for example, The 100, Vampire Diaries, Jane the Virgin, The Originals, Supernatural, and LoT all end up drawing 0.7-1.2 in demos.

Jane the Virgin and Crazy Ex Girlfriend also put The CW on the map in terms of legitimate awards recognition. Gina Rodriguez and Rachel Bloom won the Golden Globe for best actress in a TV musical or comedy in 2015 and 2016, respectively.

Edited May 21, 2016 by lemotomato

[wonderwall]

I wonder if the CW is changing with the times... While the bigger networks rely on the ratings too much, CW cares about overnight ratings+ DVR+ streaming(on the CW website) +Merchandise sales +DVD sales+ International viewership etc.

Yes, the CW is an 'almost network', but I think it's also smart not to rely too heavily on overnight ratings

[kismet]

Star Crossed/Cult never got a Golden Globe. Say what you will about CEG, but it gets critical acclaim & is an award winning show which is important & who knows what type of resale value it has in foreign markets. I never heard any major critical acclaim for Star-Crossed or Cult. Ratings aren't everything for the CW and it does not make its decisions based on ratings alone, that has been their decision making for years. Just because fans' personal interests may not align with the CW business plan does not mean a show is automatically a flop one way or the other.

[CabotCove]

Quote

The CW doesn't do well in overnight ratings, but makes up for it in their +7 numbers. Just looking a random week for example, The 100, Vampire Diaries, Jane the Virgin, The Originals, Supernatural, and LoT all end up drawing 0.7-1.2 in demos.

Fair enough

I have my opinion, Im starting to feel mocked for having it. Gonna call it a night. 

( I appreciate those, who schooled me in some new info I didnt know about ratings, without combat).

Edited May 23, 2016 by WildcardC

[dtissagirl]

They haven't cared for overnight ratings for a few years now.

Both studios [WB, CBS] lose money in broadcast at the CW. This isn't a secret. They make money on broadcast elsewhere [see WB's Big Bang Theory. See: CBS's NCIS] But both studios are really really into making these specific shows they air on the CW at a "niche"/"cult"/"peak tv" level. AND these shows do make money elsewhere: digital streaming + foreign. That combination of things justifies the renewals, even at abysmal ratings.

[quarks]

I'm not trying to mock you or pile on, WildcardC, but you came into this thread announcing that the CW had embraced a culture of flops in the same week that multiple media outlets were praising the CW for finally finding its niche and succeeding financially, and during the same period where CW shows have finally managed to gain award recognition (Jane the Virgin, Crazy Ex-Girlfriend) and attract well known/prestige/award-winning actors (Jesse Martin, Victor Garber, Brandon Routh), gain enough of a fanbase that single shows can basically have their own conventions (well, ok, that's been true of Supernatural for years now), and reached the point where they could cut their upfronts presentation down to 45 minutes and leave out many of the actors with their best known shows - an indication that ad buys are no longer their primary concern.  It's the wrong week for this particular argument, and you're making it the same week where on another thread, you are attempting to claim that Brandon Routh/Ray Palmer was brought on to support Felicity's storyline, and not to launch his own show - in direct contradiction to both media reports and what actually happened on Arrow.  

(And if you don't believe the reporting, contrast what happened with Ray Palmer last season versus the way Ted Grant - part of Laurel's supporting cast - interacted with the rest of the cast and the show last season, or Alex - brought in as Thea's supporting cast - interacted with the rest of the cast/show this season, or, for that matter, Mr. Dennis with Felicity this season. Mr. Dennis has literally no other storyline or personality beyond "I want Felicity fired," and has appeared in only four episodes so far. And yet, in those four episodes, despite being just Felicity's supporting cast, he interacted with more cast members and was a larger part of the overall storyline than Ray Palmer did in his first six episodes. The contrast between their introductions/treatment is pretty clear.)

You've also tried to argue that yes, Arrow gets promotion because it gets a lot of international media promo, and then tried to argue that CW shows are flops based on U.S. numbers, without taking into account the international revenue. If you're going to claim that international media promo counts for Arrow, then the international revenue for CW shows needs to count as well. Beauty and the Beast doesn't do well in U.S. ratings, no question, but the show is popular in non-U.S. countries. It was renewed because it's making money.  

As others have noted, networks take a number of factors into consideration when choosing whether or not to renew a show and what they will pay per episode. Supergirl, for instance, did fine compared to CBS's other new shows this season as far as ratings went. But CBS doesn't produce the show, and most of the post-view revenue and pretty much all of the ancillary toy revenue is going to WB, not CBS. Supergirl is/was also an expensive show, thanks to flying and other special effects and multiple location shots, and the decision to hire only established, known actors (in contrast to Crazy Ex-Girlfriend, for instance, which hired complete unknowns).  So CBS decided the show wasn't making enough money for them to justify the costs. 

(Crazy Ex-Girlfriend can pay its regulars and guest stars about $9,000 - $10,000 per episode. I don't have any specific salary info for Supergirl, but even Jeremy Jordan wouldn't have come in that low, and Chyler Leigh and Calista Flockhart definitely didn't. Over a 20 episode season, that adds up.)

I'd argue that what the CW has embraced isn't so much a culture of flops, but a culture of low budget shows, with some better at hiding this (The 100, Jane the Virgin) than others (Reign).  Arrow did a great job of hiding this its first and second years; the often outstanding cinematography hid that most of the extras and some of the sets vanished in the second season. I'll be the first to agree that it's done a less great job of hiding this in the last two seasons, though this has varied episode to episode. But I don't think that low budget always means flop. I do think it will be interesting to see how the high-budget Supergirl fits into this culture.

[CabotCove]

Quote

You've also tried to argue that yes, Arrow gets promotion because it gets a lot of international media promo, and then tried to argue that CW shows are flops based on U.S. numbers, without taking into account the international revenue.

I should expand on that but it doesnt matter anymore, I can see a that an alternative POV is still haram on this forum. What has  my opinion on the Ray matter or whatever elsewhere matter got to do with this topic, rhetorical question.

My bad, Im the one in the wrong place. Places don't change much, I was stupid for returning. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by WildcardC

[looptab]

12 hours ago, WildcardC said:

I can see a that an alternative POV is still haram on this forum.

See, I don't think that's the case at all. And, believe it or not, not even the usual posters here agree on everything. We might have a similar view on the show as a whole and aspects of it we enjoy or not, but there is plenty of stuff that generates discussion. I guess, though, it's easy to feel attacked or that your POV isn't even taken into consideration, when you come in here with the specific intention of schooling us all - and instead find people  (who've spent the last 4 years constantly discussing and analyzing this show) refuting your statements.

Edited May 23, 2016 by looptab
defuting? is that even a word?XD

[wonderwall]

It's been a long time since I've seen an Indonesian word! Great use of haram :p

Your opinion isn't 'forbidden' or anything like that. I admit that people with opposing views on this board tend to have to back up their claims a bit more otherwise it'll definitely get challenged, something of which you haven't really done. It's all fair when it comes to debate *shrugs*. But that doesn't mean you're in the wrong place. 

And I think the reason why @quarks started talking about Ray in this thread is because she doesn't post as much on this board and just wanted to group all of it into this thread (which is why she put it in parentheses).

But I respect knowing when it is or isn't worth it to drop a subject. Not a lot of people know when..

[CabotCove]

Quote

And I think the reason why @QUARKS started talking about Ray in this thread is because she doesn't post as much on this board and just wanted to group all of it into this thread (which is why she put it in parentheses).

I didnt know this, thanks for the explanation & reaching out. About Haram, I guess it makes sense its also an Indonesian word, I only knew its Arabic from Muslim friends. 

Still done though, better this way for everyone. Dont mind me anymore, continue ratings talk. 

Edited May 23, 2016 by WildcardC