S02.E09: Acts of War

[PinkRibbons]

NOTE: Reign airs on Wednesdays in Canada, meaning that the episodes are very often viewed a day before they have aired in the US. Therefore please be aware that this thread will almost definitely have spoilers for those who wish to wait until Thursday night to view the new episode.

 

Quote

 

Mary proposes a marriage idea for Claude, but Claude has plans of her own. Meanwhile, Bash and Francis concoct a scheme to free Francis from following Narcisse's demands; and Greer discovers she may be deeper in the Protestant movement than she realized.

 

Trailer:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=grwp-bbMos0&list=UUPWQWav6BpPvtanCtloXkiw

[Artsda]

Well that was something I wasn't expecting with Mary. Didn't expect this show to go down that route. 

 

Like Conde/Claude idea and Narcisse's  speech at the end with Lola.

[brisbydog]

I did not like that at all. I had to pause and rewind to make sure that what I thought had happened had actually occured. Completely unnecessary and saved only later by Megan Follows' acting.

 

I wonder if they are substituting Condé/Claude as the coupling that sparks the Huguenot Massacre Wedding as they are playing hard and fast with history as usual. The real couple of Marguerite and Henri of Navarre are still babies.

 

I'm also still a gibbering mess when it comes to Narcisse and Lola. Thank goodness for that scene at the end.

[PinkRibbons]

That was brutal and I don't know how I feel about it. I don't think I've ever seen a Cw show go this explicitly dark ever, and if TPTB argued it through, they better damn well have a plan on this impacting Mary's character for the rest of the series. If this was just a cheap way to manufacture drama and make Francis into the injured party by proxy, I hope the show is canceled and that no one on that writing staff ever works again.

 

That being said, the acting in this episode was incredible, the entire cast was firing on all cylinders. If this storyline is going to work, I trust they can see it through. I don't know how much I trust the writers. How they go on from now will be a test of what they're made of, that's for sure. This better not have been an idea that someone in the writer's room casually tossed out in response to, "so, this conflict between Mary and Francis will be resolved. How will we mess with their relationship dynamics now?"

 

It's done, and now it better damn well be followed through right.

Edited December 4, 2014 by PinkRibbons

[dirtypop90]

I am disgusted. The most graphic sex scene shown on reign is a rape. This is the same show that cut a masterbation scene in the pilot and wouldn't air a version of mary and francis's consummation that included thrusting. But they have no problem showing Mary's rapist thrust into her. The whole rape was sexualized- the slow motion effect, shots of mary's gown slowly pushed up, her rapist's hands on her throat. I was shocked! And I am upset I not only continued to watch this show when the majority of the audience said bye bye because of the crap writing but also that I recommended it to others as a fun show.

 

I was also disgusted by the scene of Catherine afterwards telling her to choose to be a "powerful Queen" instead of a victim as if being a victim is a dirty thing. Reign's teen audience doesn't need to hear that.

 

I get what time period the show is set in, but I never expected to see rape on a CW show geared towards young teens. 

 

I have zero confidence this writing team can handle this sensitive subject matter.

 

Not only do I hope this show is cancelled. I hope the ratings drop so low the CW snatches the remaining episodes off their schedule!

[redsox7819]

A interivew with an EP about tonight's episode. One of the reasons for the rape storyline was to bring her closer to Catherine. Which is disgusting.

 

http://tvline.com/2014/12/04/reign-mary-rape-scene-season-2-interview/

Edited December 5, 2014 by redsox7819

[HunterHunted]

A interivew with an EP about tonight's episode. One of the reasons for the rape storyline was to bring her closer to Catherine. Which is disgusting.

 

http://tvline.com/2014/12/04/reign-mary-rape-scene-season-2-interview/

I'm not surprised. As soon as I saw Mary running to Catherine, I thought this will bring the two of them closer. That rape was brutal and unnecessarily graphic. Poor Mary.

[sashabear21]

Okay show, I was not expecting that and it was completely disturbing.  I know in context it was the 16th century where rape was not discussed and was treated far differently than today, and royals especially would have stayed silent about that, but way to suddenly decide to inject historical accuracy into the show in the grossest way possible writers! I get where Catherine was coming from with her speech about not allowing them to take her power away, but the urging to stay silent is not a message that should be sent on show that is watched by young girls.  The showrunners will be doing a great disservice if they use this as a plot device to keep Mary and Francis apart or if it's Francis goes on a rampage and kills the guys and suddenly Mary's magically emotionally healed from it all.  I'm hoping they see this through in the right way, and that it's not a cheap ploy for ratings because I'm honestly a little nauseous after watching it.  

Edited December 5, 2014 by sashabear21

[PinkRibbons]

This is up on the CW's youtube:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btWIsMuxQNo

[dirtypop90]

Okay show, I was not expecting that and it was completely disturbing.  I know in context it was the 16th century where rape was not discussed and was treated far differently than today, and royals especially would have stayed silent about that, but way to suddenly decide to inject historical accuracy into the show in the grossest way possible writers! I get where Catherine was coming from with her speech about not allowing them to take her power away, but the urging to stay silent is not a message that should be sent on show that is watched by young girls.  The showrunners will be doing a great disservice if they use this as a plot device to keep Mary and Francis apart or if it's Francis goes on a rampage and kills the guys and suddenly Mary's magically emotionally healed from it all.  I'm hoping they see this through in the right way, and that it's not a cheap ploy for ratings because I'm honestly a little nauseous after watching it.  

 

Based on her interviews it sounds exactly like a plot device to keep Francis and Mary apart and I assume push Mary towards Conde. If the writers wanted another triangle surely they could have found another way. Better yet why did they ever end the francis/mary/bash triangle? Atleast that triangle was less contrived.

 

Another interview

http://insidetv.ew.com/2014/12/04/reign-postmortem-laurie-mccarthy-mary-rape/

[missbonnie]

I totally didn't see that coming. I'd heard rumors about a rape and to be honest I figured that it would be Claude. Poor Mary, the two men she depends upon are no where to be found. I hope that Conde finds out and chokes on his guilt. And NOT to belittle the act in ANY way, but I've seen more graphic rape scenes on a soap opera not to even mention Son's of Anarchy, which unbelievably many teens do watch. I don't, I can't stomach the violence and pretty much every thing else that goes on in that show and I'm 53. I do think that the CW should have been more responsible and aired that PSA immediately following the episode rather than a screen with a phone number and website. All of that aside, I agree that the acting was superb tonight, by everyone especially Megan Fellows.

Edited December 5, 2014 by missbonnie

[BooBear]

I just wanted to comment that I think this show jumped the shark. No one likes a rape but the objection for me is that it seemed like a cheap soap opera effect to keep the plot running.  This show can't handle that storyline. 

[missbonnie]

I can only assume that his cohorts carried him off when they made their escape.

[Advance35]

Eh, it depends on what they do with this story point.  I wasn't horrified or anything, I save that feeling for real-life, just suprised they went there.    Considering the time period this story is LOOSLEY based on, this sort of thing DID happen.   Maybe not to royals but I wouldn't be surprised if such things went on in the royal courts. 

 

And Catherine was right in that back than, if you were still going to have any kind of life, you had to publicly pretend nothing ever happened.   If word gets out about what happened to Mary it could complicate things if she hypothetically concieves a child.

 

I do hope this leads to further seperate storylines for Francis and Mary as I like her interactions with Conde much better than with the Manbaby.   And for the love of god Claude can go.   Please don't wast Conde on her writers.

[missbonnie]

From the interviews above it sounds like you are going to get your wish. The producers indicated that this is going to make the chasm between Francis and Mary even worse for a large part of the season. Although, I will be supremely pissed if the rape results in a pregnancy.

[Eolivet]

I'm tired of TV shows trying to replicate the Red Wedding. Must every horrific, traumatic experience happen after a big, happy party? It's the world's oldest narrative technique, but it's predictable and feels so stale. Downton Abbey did the same thing and it was just as eyerolling then. Can't horrific, traumatic events happen on a rainy, gloomy days? I promise, it's less cliched than the latter.

 

Continue to be impressed by Craig Parker -- Narcisse expertly skating that line between villain and charming antihero. As another poster here inferred, when does he introduce Lola to his red room of pain?

[scarletregina]

I am disgusted. The most graphic sex scene shown on reign is a rape. This is the same show that cut a masterbation scene in the pilot and wouldn't air a version of mary and francis's consummation that included thrusting. But they have no problem showing Mary's rapist thrust into her. The whole rape was sexualized- the slow motion effect, shots of mary's gown slowly pushed up, her rapist's hands on her throat. I was shocked! And I am upset I not only continued to watch this show when the majority of the audience said bye bye because of the crap writing but also that I recommended it to others as a fun show.

 

I was also disgusted by the scene of Catherine afterwards telling her to choose to be a "powerful Queen" instead of a victim as if being a victim is a dirty thing. Reign's teen audience doesn't need to hear that.

 

 

I did not see the slow motion and choking as sexualized at all. Quite the opposite. To me, it was in slow motion because that was what it was like for Mary - like time had stopped. I also think, had this show been on another network, we would have seen Mary being beaten during her assault. But it's on the CW, so she was choked instead. I saw it as a further illustration of the violence, not a sexualization. 

 

This is definitely a YMMV situation. 

 

I didn't watch the episode when it aired, was there a trigger warning? I would've appreciated one. I was not prepared for that scene at all.

 

I do understand why people are disgusted at Catherine's speech to Mary, but, again, this is something that I saw differently. I honed in on the part where she talked about not letting this diminish how Mary feels about herself. That is an important message. I wish someone had told me that in the moments after my experience. 

 

I do see the issue with Catherine saying Mary should "erase" all evidence that she was ever assaulted, but I took that to be in the same vein as not letting her diminish her view of herself. They wanted to demean her. They wanted to show her that she has no power. Catherine wants Mary to show them that they did not take her power. That too is an important message. 

 

Of course, everything hinges on how this plays out. If the rape becomes all about how it affects Francis then it's total bullshit and this show can fuck off - especially if it results in a pregnancy. 

 

Just a small disclaimer on the above: This is such a sensitive subject and I don't think there is a right or wrong way to interpret the events of this episode. We're all going to take something different from it, even those of us who have, unfortunately, had similar experiences to Mary.

[Tripp]

I had heard about the rape and so I was reluctant to watch so I took my time.  I loathe rape storylines in modern day pieces because they are so rarely done properly.  But in a TV show like Reign, it doesn't bother me that much . Honestly I can accept it a lot more in a story based on Medieval times when women were honest to God thought of as property.  It's sick and makes me mad but I'd rather see it there than in a contemporary show or an Edwardian drama like Downtown Abbey which outside of the great war the most violence we saw was when Matthew and Richard messed up their hair slapping each other on the floor.

 

So I am going to wait and see how this storyline goes. As ScarletRegina said above, if this turns into "All about Francis", I'm going to be pissed.  Right now I'm curious to see how far they take Mary's wishing on revenge and as a bonus  it's given Megan Follows something to do other than chase around dead spirited children who keep threatening the life of her miserable daughter.  What I didn't like is I think it was a bit graphic.  But I am glad they wrote in Mary escaped herself.

 

Conde and Claude is interesting or at least for the first time I found the two of them interesting.  It's also the first time I probably  liked her.  I think the marriage is a good idea, I mean neither wants to get married in the first place because usually it forces a change in how one socially interacts but if they both agree, they could have an open marriage.   It also forces Catherine to figure something else out in regards to trying to kick Claude out of the castle.

 

I live for Narcisse and Lola moments now.  While I'm anxious for more, I hope they don't rush it.  

[scarynikki12]

I found the scene itself to be fairly well done.  The camera work was done in such a way that I was expecting the assault to end up being an almost rape, that the first rapist was unable to succeed and that Mary escaped traumatized but relatively unscathed physically.  Other than Nikita (a network anomaly in all the best ways), the CW tends to shy from even acknowledging that rape exists, much less intentionally including it in their storylines, so I'm surprised Reign was allowed to go there.  What has always bothered me about how SVU and CBS procedurals handle rape is that they barely give the victim a POV and then make it all about everyone else.  Mary's POV wasn't sacrificed in favor of anyone and I really appreciated that. 

 

The only area where I'm feeling concern is what happens next.  Since this is still the CW, I'm fully expecting Mary's rape to end up being all about Francis but I would dearly love it if the show turned that expectation on its head.  Have Francis make it all about him but make it clear that the show does not endorse this behavior.  If any further estrangement comes from Mary recognizing this in Francis and not wanting to be around him then my concerns will go away. 

 

On a lighter note, I spent most of the episode wondering why the royal seamstresses decided Claude should walk around in a bed sheet and cheap ankle boots.  The costume department just loves trolling us don't they?

[Eolivet]

I didn't watch the episode when it aired, was there a trigger warning? I would've appreciated one. I was not prepared for that scene at all.

 

No warning prior to the episode, not even a "Viewer discretion is advised." The showrunner gave an interview where she said they wanted to catch people off-guard, which completely misses the point, to me. If one's story is good, viewers will be drawn into it, regardless of whether or not they know to be watching for it. To me, it's questionable not to air a warning for an episode dealing with this topic airing at 8PM Central. So I thought the lack of warning came off as kind of a cheap trick. Let your writing stand on its own and give the episode a warning -- don't try to ambush your audience and then pat yourself on the back that they were shocked. If your writing was better, they'd still have been shocked, even if they were warned beforehand.

[scarletregina]

That fact that there was no trigger warning says a lot about whether or not they care about their audience. So does the fact that they didn't air the PSA on television directly after the episode aired. 

[dirtypop90]

I wonder if they are substituting Condé/Claude as the coupling that sparks the Huguenot Massacre Wedding as they are playing hard and fast with history as usual. The real couple of Marguerite and Henri of Navarre are still babies.

 

I believe this is happening as well. Marguerite and Henri had an open marriage and I noticed Claude proposed one to Conde this episode.

[megsara]

This was very tough to watch, but I thought they did a very good job.  Writing rape into fiction is always tricky, and even my favorite series have used it too much as a plot point (even my beloved Outlander), but from the short aftermath we've seen so far, I think they are handling this well.  The scene between Mary annd Catherine was great, and I appreciated the call back to one of my favorite s1 episodes and didn't drop that vital part of Catherine's history.  Unfortunately, Mary can't appear weak, hurt, victimized, at least not in public.  Royals were viewed as 'more' than other people, they are seen as being annointed by God.  If they are viewed as someone who can be hurt just like any other man or woman the whole systems starts to crack. 

 

And I do think we'll see Mary lash out because she has to playact like nothing is wrong.  I'm pretty petrified for Greer and Castleroy - man, if Mary ever traces that back....watch out.  And I have to wonder if this will harden her towards Protestants. 

 

On to the rest.  I did kind of love Francis' bug-eyed crazy act.  Narcisse's expression when he was all, 'eh, they'll survive....somehow'

 about Mary and the baby was pretty great. 

 

Also, loved Bash just straight up killing that dude.  I don't know why, but no-nonsense killer Bash is my favorite. 

[PinkRibbons]

On to the rest.  I did kind of love Francis' bug-eyed crazy act.

 

I loved how much like crazy!Henry he was. Seems to have freaked out Narcisse as much as everyone else near Henry got freaked out. Guess that crazy-good nanny/actress/imposter isn't the only one who can channel a loony old king.

Edited December 8, 2014 by PinkRibbons

[Andromeda]

I did not like that at all. I had to pause and rewind to make sure that what I thought had happened had actually occured. Completely unnecessary and saved only later by Megan Follows' acting.

I agree completely and had the same reaction. Very disturbing. I also paused and rewatched the scene, unsure if I was really seeing what I thought they were showing!

I just saw the episode last night, and had to come here to see people's thoughts. I was pretty surprised they went there, with Mary of all people. I didn't think it was graphic, per se, but it was definitely disturbing because by not showing much, it lets your imagination fill in the blanks. I loved how Catherine cared for Mary afterward, and I agree it was very important in those times, and Mary in that position, not to show any weakness and to reclaim her power. So Catherine's advice was right, for this situation. Though I kept wondering just how crappy the castle security was that allowed these people to just crash in there, costumes or no. Queens usually had ladies in waiting and servants right in the next room, if not the same room with them, so it does stretch believability that they'd get anywhere close to her without someone sounding an alarm. But suspending disbelief is par for the course with this show.

Edited December 8, 2014 by Andromeda

[Wootini]

They're always wandering around alone, so I'm surprised the royals haven't all been killed by now! ;-)

 

Actually, I noticed more servants/guards with Francis and Mary in this episode, not that it mattered. I was stunned by the rape, because I watch this show pretty unspoiled and had no idea it was going to happen. I do have to say that both Adelaide Kane and Megan Follows did brilliant work in the aftermath. Catherine, in particular, gave just the right edge of sympathy as she also warned Mary she could show no weakness. 

 

This show has a history of landing more on the side of ridiculous, so I was a little wary of all this rather serious religious tolerance storyline. But they've been doing okay so far, so I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt as far as this rape storyline. We'll see.

[Rhondinella]

Ok, so.  My first time through this ep (which I only just got to) I was away from my DVR, so I "flew to England" to watch it (as Dave and Tara would say).  But the particular . . . vehicle I used to get there for some reason actually did edit out most of the rape scene.  They showed the men pulling her by her legs, and then the guy choking her, with just the shot of Mary's face.  You didn't see the guy at all.  Then suddenly they cut to the part where she rolls over and smashes the other guy (who I now realize was also going to rape her) in the head with the stone thing and runs away.

 

So, until they got to the part where Mary said she was raped, I thought she had just been attacked and partially choked.  (I admit the action didn't make a lot of coherent sense, but then . . . Reign, so. . . .)  Then when it became clear they were going with the rape thing, I just assumed they were implying it but didn't show it more graphically because it was network TV.  THEN I came here and saw everyone talking about how graphic and disturbing the rape was and I knew something was up.  So I went to the copy on my DVR to watch the whole scene and found the parts that had been cut out of the version I originally watched.  It is perhaps understandable why someone would want to edit that out, but it still seemed strange to me. 

 

If this was just a cheap way to manufacture drama and make Francis into the injured party by proxy, I hope the show is canceled and that no one on that writing staff ever works again.

 

 

On the one hand, yes, I totally get the modern feminist side of this issue.  However, the fact is that in that time raping a queen (especially one who is not really queen regnant--her husband is the actual ruler, she's figurehead) would have PRECISELY been seen as a way to humiliate a king and harm his reputation (and that of the entire nation, really).  Rape during wartime is often seen by the perpetrators as an act against the men (husbands, fathers, brothers, etc.) more than it is against the actual women who get raped. The threat of rape to their women is supposed to be a motivating factor in them doing or not doing whatever their enemy wants.  It's obviously repugnant in every way, but being true to the times, this makes sense to me.  As did Catherine's response.  And I didn't think it was particularly graphic.  Disturbing certainly, but not graphic.  But then, I'm used to watching Game of Thrones so my sensibility on this may be skewed.

 

However, I agree that one could argue that this was exactly the wrong moment for this show to go all Weiner about the historical accuracy.