Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion

[SimoneS]

Those journal entries only confirm how right I was when I insisted that Nora could not be trusted because everything that she said was a lie. The extent of her deception with Barry and Iris. Oy vey! Pretending to be learn how to use her powers for the first time, when she already knew how to use them from Thawne all along.  I remember asking, why it never occurred to Barry and Iris to ask Nora how could she open an portal to time travel, but cannot use her powers. It never made any sense.

8 minutes ago, Trini said:

Todd has a history of straight up lying about plot twists, so I'm still thinking that Thawne is still somehow connected to Grace somehow. But, we'll see how things shake out by the end of the season.

I didn't know this. So Thawne could still be involved with Grace somehow.  He could be putting on an act for Nora. It wouldn't be out of character when you remember all the head games that he used to play with Barry in season one.

[BeautifulFlower]

16 hours ago, SimoneS said:

I think that Nora was sending messages to Thawne via Gideon up until she found out that he murdered her grandmother. The first time we saw the countdown clock when she visited him it was at 51:55. In the preview for Tuesday's episode it is 11:59 so she has been going back and forth to visit only Thawne over that 40 minute period. 

The countdown is either to Thawne's death or to him being given the cure. I expect by the time they stop Cicada, he will have never been captured and will no longer be in that cell.

In 5x12, it was shown Nora still sent messages to Thawne. Since this show runs on real time, we see a date for January 21, 2019. It's the one talking about her parents.

Reading the entries, why does Nora think Thawne care about her describing her parents' love? He doesn't care.

Ugh, I really need to know what Nora's life was like. 

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Reading the entries, why does Nora think Thawne care about her describing her parents' love? He doesn't care.

You mean that man who hates Barry, tried to destroy his life, murdered his mother, and is responsible for his 25 year disappearance doesn't care that he is in love with his wife? Nora is a nutjob.

[SimoneS]

Troy James played Ragdoll was allegedly spotted on The Flash set so he might be back for episode 20.

ETA: To correct name.

Edited March 18, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

6 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Ugh, I really need to know what Nora's life was like. 

Me too. And I really hope we get more flashbacks. You'd think with Nora being so central, we'd have seen more by now, but noooooo....

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

Peter Merkel played Ragdoll was allegedly spotted on The Flash set so he might be back for episode 20.

Cool! He was one of the few memorable villains so far this season. (I think you mean Troy James, though.)

[SimoneS]

14 minutes ago, Trini said:

Cool! He was one of the few memorable villains so far this season. (I think you mean Troy James, though.)

Yep, I made the correction. I enjoyed the Ragdoll so I look forward to seeing him again.

[SimoneS]

Interview with Sarah Carter. Sounds like Grace will be around for several episodes.: https://tvline.com/2019/03/18/the-flash-preview-sarah-carter-future-grace-cicada-agenda/

Candice having fun, but check out Iris' uniform. They are filming episode 21. 

[Trini]

6 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Candice having fun, but check out Iris' uniform. They are filming episode 21. 

Interesting! (The uniform, I mean! heh) The last time we saw Iris in body armor was Earth-2 Iris. Is she going undercover? I don't think that's STAR Labs equipment.

Are you sure it's episode 21? I thought they only recently finished #19.

[Trini]

17 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Interview with Sarah Carter. Sounds like Grace will be around for several episodes.: https://tvline.com/2019/03/18/the-flash-preview-sarah-carter-future-grace-cicada-agenda/

She does a good job of not spilling too much.

[SimoneS]

7 minutes ago, Trini said:

Are you sure it's episode 21? I thought they only recently finished #19.

Not sure at all. I was counting it as if they film one episode each week when means since they filmed 18 in the week of February 25th, they would be filming 21 this week. 

[SimoneS]

On 3/18/2019 at 5:13 PM, Trini said:

Interesting! (The uniform, I mean! heh) The last time we saw Iris in body armor was Earth-2 Iris. Is she going undercover? I don't think that's STAR Labs equipment.

I was thinking that they were going undercover also. Maybe ARGUS? I wish I was more excited about this.

Edited March 21, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

7 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Not sure at all. I was counting it as if they film one episode each week when means since they filmed 18 in the week of February 25th, they would be filming 21 this week. 

The filming schedule is approx. 10 days. The last convention the cast was at someone asked about how long it takes to make an episode, and Tom Cavanagh broke down the timeline. There should be a video in the Media thread. In any case, I know it's longer than a week; plus I think they have Sundays off.

[SimoneS]

4 minutes ago, Trini said:

The filming schedule is approx. 10 days. The last convention the cast was at someone asked about how long it takes to make an episode, and Tom Cavanagh broke down the timeline. There should be a video in the Media thread. In any case, I know it's longer than a week; plus I think they have Sundays off.

In that case, it is more likely episode 20 than 21.

[BeautifulFlower]

Read the interview

Sigh

What's the point of this show being called The Flash? Grace is Killer Frost's big bad. I'm tired of this show not being about Barry anymore. Let this be the last season of this

[adora721]

39 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Read the interview

Sigh

What's the point of this show being called The Flash? Grace is Killer Frost's big bad. I'm tired of this show not being about Barry anymore. Let this be the last season of this

"I’m after her more than anybody, because she’s the biggest threat. Powers-wise, [Killer Frost] is a good fight!" I just have to LOL whenever I read something like this about Killer Frost. So many times they've claimed one way or another that KF is the key to defeating Cicada, but it's yet to be shown.

KF died in the repeating timeline of episode 14 first! Caitlin didn't tell her to "duck" like she did in a previous episode. In the rare moment when KF had Cicada's dagger frozen, she couldn't hold it long enough. When she was supposed to be backup for Ralph and Barry when they went undercover in Goldface's world, KF was no where to be found when they got in trouble.  In "Elsewords, Part 2", Nora Fries (a non-meta) gets the best of her. In last week's episode, she was blasted away just like everyone else by Grace-Cicada.  

We don't see her training; we don't even get a piece of dialogue to say she's training to improve her odds against Cicada.  I'm sorry, but nothing they've shown thus far indicates that anyone should be intimidated by KF. 

If she was training and we saw it, that would help us to believe she'll eventually get the better of Cicada, but they don't do that. Just a whole bunch of telling and no showing. Perhaps when Cicada is about to murder Cisco, KF will up her game to defeat him or her; if so, that's some lazy, lazy writing.

Edited March 19, 2019 by adora721

[SimoneS]

I just had a horrible thought. They couldn't be breaking Thawne out of Iron Heights in the future?

[Trini]

11 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

I just had a horrible thought. They couldn't be breaking Thawne out of Iron Heights in the future?

I think it's almost certain he's getting out of that cell somehow.

[SimoneS]

21 minutes ago, Trini said:

I think it's almost certain he's getting out of that cell somehow.

Definitely. I just don't understand Thawne's plan. I suppose that he really could be trying to stop Cicada, but that seems unlikely. If he really is, why? Did Cicada help capture him? Maybe by deactivating his powers?

Have you noticed the metal jacket that Thawne has been wearing over his prison outfit? I have been wondering what that is about.

[SimoneS]

Wow, CW even released a sneak peek of the Nora/Thawne scene.

[Trini]

That's probably the opening scene for the episode. Thawne is not to be trusted, so I just don't believe him when he says he doesn't know what went wrong -- assuming that wasn't his plan all along. We just don't have enough clues right now.

[SimoneS]

23 minutes ago, Trini said:

That's probably the opening scene for the episode. Thawne is not to be trusted, so I just don't believe him when he says he doesn't know what went wrong -- assuming that wasn't his plan all along. We just don't have enough clues right now.

We have seen Thawne's plans go awry. He hasn't always been able to predict events or people's decisions. So it is possible that his plan is going off the rails by unexpectedly Grace traveling back to the past, but maybe he is adjusting his plan by involving Barry directly now. He must know that Barry will lose his mind when he finds out the truth although he won't kill him as he should. Maybe Thawne is counting on Barry saving him from death now.

Edited March 19, 2019 by SimoneS

[SimoneS]

Another sneak peek of tonight's episode. As I predicted Orlin isn't happy about Grace becoming Cicada.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/03/19/the-flash-season-5-episode-17-cicada-clip/

[adora721]

18 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Another sneak peek of tonight's episode. As I predicted Orlin isn't happy about Grace becoming Cicada.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/03/19/the-flash-season-5-episode-17-cicada-clip/

Oh the irony and hypocrisy of two people, Cicada and Grace-Cicada, who hate and kill other metas because they have powers! And now she wants get Orlin's meta  powers back. Oy!

[SimoneS]

33 minutes ago, adora721 said:

Oh the irony and hypocrisy of two people, Cicada and Grace-Cicada, who hate and kill other metas because they have powers! And now she wants get Orlin's meta  powers back. Oy!

True, but I get it and am actually am surprised that there aren't more people like Orlin, Grace, Ambres, and the cop determined to get justice no matter how irrational and illegal. So many metas have wrecked havoc on Central City and are responsible for so many deaths and injuries yet there seems to be no justice as they keep escaping from prison. Of course, there would be people want to go vigilante and kill them all. Getting meta powers and using them to kill metas, would be poetic justice to these people.

Edited March 19, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

True, but I get it and am actually am surprised that there aren't more people like Orlin, Grace, Ambres, and the cop determined to get justice no matter how irrational and illegal. So many metas have wrecked havoc on Central City and are responsible for so many deaths and injuries yet there seems to be no justice as they keep escaping from prison. Of course, there would be people want to go vigilante and kill them all. Getting meta powers and using them to kill metas, would be poetic justice to these people.

Ah! But there's the rub: Team Flash can solve all of this meta-human carnage with a non-lethal option, but they are all caught up in a false moral quandry.  I can totally understand not using the cure without consent on non-criminal metas, but I am all for using it on criminal metas without consent. The fact that they are criminal should rule out any consent issue. One of the results of criminal behavior is loss of certain rights; sad, but true. 

ETA: It'd be one thing if the cure rendered metas worse off or in a terrible physical state, but all it does is return them to their normal human state as before the PA exploded. As repercussions for crime go, that's a very fair deal. Assuming Cait took some kind of medical oath, its primary tenet is to first do no harm. The cure does no harm.

The irony is that it was loyalty to her criminal alter ego, KF, that caused Caitlin to put Team Flash in this moral quagmire in the first place. One of the drawbacks of having a criminal on the team is that it compromises the team's moral compass.

Edited March 19, 2019 by adora721

[Brinny]

1 hour ago, adora721 said:

Ah! But there's the rub: Team Flash can solve all of this meta-human carnage with a non-lethal option, but they are all caught up in a false moral quandry.  I can totally understand not using the cure without consent on non-criminal metas, but I am all for using it on criminal metas without consent. The fact that they are criminal should rule out any consent issue. One of the results of criminal behavior is loss of certain rights; sad, but true. 

ETA: It'd be one thing if the cure rendered metas worse off or in a terrible physical state, but all it does is return them to their normal human state as before the PA exploded. As repercussions for crime go, that's a very fair deal. Assuming Cait took some kind of medical oath, its primary tenet is to first do no harm. The cure does no harm.

The irony is that it was loyalty to her criminal alter ego, KF, that caused Caitlin to put Team Flash in this moral quagmire in the first place. One of the drawbacks of having a criminal on the team is that it compromises the team's moral compass.

Their sudden need to do what’s morally right is especially strange when you consider that for years Team Flash had no such qualms about locking up metas in the pipeline without any sort of due process or chance for release. 

And it’s not as if they’ve ever really even had an in depth discussion about how they used to wrongfully imprison people. It’s just sort have been acknowledged in passing as like, “oops, our bad.”

But no, stripping criminals of their powers that they use to fight crime without their consent is abhorrent. Imagine the powers like weapons. Literally think about Cicada’s dagger. Would you ever stop to ask, “Excuse me sir, I know you’re using that to hurt people, but can I please take it from you, destroy it and never give it back? Oh. No? You wanna keep it? Yeah, okay. Cool. Just thought I’d check.”

Edited March 19, 2019 by Brinny

[adora721]

1 hour ago, Brinny said:

But no, stripping criminals of their powers that they use to fight crime without their consent is abhorrent. Imagine the powers like weapons. Literally think about Cicada’s dagger. Would you ever stop to ask, “Excuse me sir, I know you’re using that to hurt people, but can I please take it from you, destroy it and never give it back? Oh. No? You wanna keep it? Yeah, okay. Cool. Just thought I’d check.”

I recognize there's potential for abuse for not giving criminal's the right to consent to medical interventions. That's another reason to look at it from the risk/reward ratio- lives saved vs criminal right to consent to a non-harmful procedure. It's not that I think any or all medical intervention is OK; the key point is that the procedure is non-harmful and just returns them to a pre-PA explosion state.

1 hour ago, Brinny said:

Their sudden need to do what’s morally right is especially strange when you consider that for years Team Flash had no such qualms about locking up metas in the pipeline without any sort of due process or chance for release. 

The reason this is any kind of issue is because of their friendship with Caitlin and Killer Frost. Think back to S3 when Julian and her mom made a "cure" for Caitlin to get rid of KF, which Caitlin admitted she eventually took (without KF's consent) or when Caitlin went to her mother to get help in getting rid of KF without Killer Frost's consent.  The hypocrisy from Caitlin is epic!

ETA: Forgot to mention the fact Caitlin worked for Amunet in slave trafficking for use of Amunet's tech to keep KF under control without KF's consent.

Edited March 19, 2019 by adora721

[Trini]

On 2/12/2019 at 5:48 PM, Trini said:

J. Niera and K. Wheeler are writing episode 18 (the one Panabaker is directing):

Just a reminder that this is the next episode after the hiatus. And we now know that the title is "Godspeed". I'm not sure if the synopsis will be out this week, but there should be a promo.

[Trini]

Maybe they are on #21 after all:

[SimoneS]

Yep, it does seem like they are on episode 21. They are just about done for the season.

Watching the preview, I like that they are reading Nora's journal, but I am rolling my eyes at Iris making excuses for her already. Good grief Iris, toughen up. If you insist on parenting her like a teenage, be a parent not Nora's bff. 

It seems from the preview that the show is justifying Nora turning to Thawne by linking it to her partner/girlfriend Lia being murdered by Godspeed. I don't care, but they have to throw something out there and hope it sticks.

Edited March 20, 2019 by SimoneS

[BeautifulFlower]

25 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Yep, it does seem like they are on episode 21. They are just about done for the season.

Watching the preview, I like that they are reading Nora's journal, but I am rolling my eyes at Iris making excuses for her already. Good grief Iris, toughen up. If you insist on parenting her like a teenage, be a parent not Nora's bff. 

It seems from the preview that the show is justifying Nora turning to Thawne by linking it to her partner/girlfriend Lia being murdered by Godspeed. I don't care, but they have to throw something out there and hope it sticks.

From the promo, I get the impression that Iris doesn't agree with locking Nora up in the pipeline. In my opinion, I felt that was a bit much.

[Trini]

"Godspeed" promo:

----

Finally some answers about the future/Nora's past! Please, please let us see what everyone (or at least the Wests, Allens, and Cisco) is doing in the future!

I'm guessing that Nora screamng "nooo" is before she found out she had powers, tragedy, then after she finds out, she's upset that she could have done something.

Yeah, looks like Iris is the good parent in that "good parent/bad parent" scenario. Not really the time, show.

This should be a West-Allen family-centric episode, I wonder if what everyone else will be doing? (kidding - they're going to be standing around STAR Labs.)

Edited March 22, 2019 by Trini
new video link

[SimoneS]

Since Grace is still around in episode 21, I wonder how the season will end. Things have taken an unexpected turn with Orlin's death and Grace as the new Cicada. At some point, they must reveal who helped Grace travel to the past. The only thing I still am confident about is that Thawne will escape his cell by the end of the season.

Edited March 20, 2019 by SimoneS

[adora721]

https://araybiaaa.tumblr.com/post/183624209028/candice-patton-filming-late-night-in-downtown

[SimoneS]

See the West Allens are a happy family once again. RME. I knew it wouldn't take much for them to get past Nora's betrayal.

The Canadagraphs Flash blog has additional photos of most of Team Flash filming episode 21.

ETA: I forgot to mention that Kimberly Williams is in this episode.

Edited March 23, 2019 by SimoneS

[SimoneS]

The Canadagraphs Flash Blog posted more photos from episode 21. Basically, Barry and Nora fighting Grace to no effect. Grace as the same hairstyle as in the Instagram video posted above. Sherloque and Irene fight off something/someone maybe Grace. Vibe and Ralph also have scenes together and help fight Grace. So lots of action building up to the final episode. 

There is a lot talk swirling about Carlos possibly leaving. I think that he is because he isn't denying it and Cisco has been so marginalized this season, but I continue to hope it isn't true. 

[Trini]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

There is a lot talk swirling about Carlos possibly leaving. I think that he is because he isn't denying it and Cisco has been so marginalized this season, but I continue to hope it isn't true. 

I just hate that people are talking about it as if it's a fact that's already happened when there been no actual information at all. I'm not sure that anyone is is leaving, but I think there are several other cast members who have a better chance of not returning than Carlos.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

I just hate that people are talking about it as if it's a fact that's already happened when there been no actual information at all. I'm not sure that anyone is is leaving, but I think there are several other cast members who have a better chance of not returning than Carlos.

Other than Nora, who do you think are likely to be leaving?

[Trini]

31 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

Other than Nora, who do you think are likely to be leaving?

The 'veterans', Jesse or Tom. If Jesse(Joe) is gone, then Danielle N.(Cecile) will probably go with him.

[SimoneS]

4 hours ago, Trini said:

The 'veterans', Jesse or Tom. If Jesse(Joe) is gone, then Danielle N.(Cecile) will probably go with him.

It never occurred to me that Jesse might leave. I really hope he stays. However, the show has too many cast members, specifically metas. While I am glad she has steady work, it made absolutely no sense to make Danielle N. a regular or Cecile a meta. The show will continue to struggle with all those metas on Team Flash.

Another thing, after Barry and Iris inevitably forgive Nora, I hope they or the rest of Team Flash continue to be distrustful and/or wary around her. She deserves nothing less.

Edited March 24, 2019 by SimoneS

[SevenStars]

8 hours ago, Trini said:

The 'veterans', Jesse or Tom. If Jesse(Joe) is gone, then Danielle N.(Cecile) will probably go with him.

I hope it's not Jesse because he brings a certain vibe/gravitas that makes flash better than it would be without him. I always saw that but it wasn't until he was gone for so many episodes that I realized how much Flash needed him. 

I hope it's Tom because honestly, I'm tired of all his characters and I don't think he is necessary unless he is playing reverse flash. 

[Trini]

16 minutes ago, SevenStars said:

I hope it's Tom because honestly, I'm tired of all his characters and I don't think he is necessary unless he is playing reverse flash. 

Exactly. And the Crisis crossover next season could wrap up the Reverse Flash story. And even if it doesn't completely, he could always come back as a guest star. They don't need him as a regular, or another version of Wells.

[BeautifulFlower]

If someone is leaving, we won't know until end of the season. I've watched plenty of tv shows where they wait until the last episode for said person airs. They never reveal before because it would spoil.

That said, I hope Tom is leaving. I'm tired of all the Wells. I know he grew to like the cast, but if you only signed up to play Eobard in the first place, then you should've left or get demoted after season 1.

I still feel Harry wasn't needed to introduce us to E-2. We definitely didn't need him in season 4. Harry really had no purpose that season. The reasoning they gave as to why he came to E-1 is still stupid. "Oh my daughter kicked off her team, so I'm going to move to another Earth" Like, what? you really going to move all because she kicked you off the team.

HR served no purpose either.

DP needs to leave as well. Look, let's be honest, her character serves no purpose anymore. Since the beginning, all Caitlin does is just stand in Star Labs and say scientific things. She's the plot device for the audience. She was the resident love interest. If you watch all the way from the beginning to now, you can just tell they had no overall plan for her character. Especially when it came to Killer Frost. They clearly only made her Killer Frost because that's her comic counterpart and fans kept asking when it would happen. That's why we're stuck with all the inconsistencies. Whatever they're trying to do with her now, is just forced in my opinion. Them making her be a product of an experiment is clearly the writers trying to get the fans and critics off their backs for all the plot holes they wrote for this character. Anyway, Caitlin has no purpose on this show. Barry doesn't need a doctor as he can heal. Seriously all of her medical scenes just end with "thanks to your meta dna you'll be fine"

I like Cisco, but the writers clearly don't care anymore. He hasn't had a storyline in years. He exist just like Caitlin to serve as a plot device sometimes. However, unlike Caitlin, he's also use the comic relief. That's all they see him as. 

Neither Cisco or Caitlin have development beyond Star Labs.

I love Joe. He hasn't had a story either. I know Jesse was injured this season, but he still hasn't had stories in seasons. unless a change happens, he has to go as well.

Ralph. I don't know why they made him a regular. He's basically a recurring character this season same as Cecile. I'm 100% sure he's appeared in more episodes in season 4 as recurring than Season 5 as a main. He doesn't have a story either and is just comic relief.

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I still feel Harry wasn't needed to introduce us to E-2. We definitely didn't need him in season 4. Harry really had no purpose that season. The reasoning they gave as to why he came to E-1 is still stupid. "Oh my daughter kicked off her team, so I'm going to move to another Earth" Like, what? you really going to move all because she kicked you off the team.

I actually liked the introduction to Harry and what he brought to season 2, but he was completely pointless in season 4. I think the first two seasons had Tom at his best....and then season 3 happened with HR, and all went downhill for him. So I would be totally fine if Tom left. Sherloque is better than HR and season 4 Harry, but only because of his role in calling out Nora. At least he had a clear purpose all season, unlike HR or like season 4 Harry. 

Caitlin is someone who I don't think is needed anymore, but the show clearly still has a use for her. The show clearly LOVES Killer Frost more than Caitlin, at this point, so I don't see her leaving unless DP wants to leave. 

Cisco hasn't had much to do this season. He used to be more important but now doesn't have much after Gypsy's departure from the show. I do see Carlos potentially leaving this season and it's because this is the first season where Carlos has actually missed more than an episode and Cisco clearly has no arc this season. They seem lost with his character or Carlos has been preoccupied with other things (not sure whether he's had many projects on the side this season). From randomly getting a girlfriend (who isn't that great, tbh) to his random short arc about not wanting his powers to being ok with his powers again to not wanting his new girlfriend to know about his powers, it's been a confusing back and forth with his character.

[SimoneS]

Thinking about it, Nora's departure will free up airtime for the other characters. Next season Barry will be investigating with Joe and occasionally Iris again. It will open up space for Ralph, but there simply is no room for Cecile. If Carlos doesn't leave, then Cisco and Caitlin will be back in the Cortex. I don't see DP going any where. Frankly, she is the only white woman in the cast and the writers tie themselves into knots desperately to giving Killer Frost something nonsensical to do every season. 

I loved Harry and while I despised HR, I thought he was good as the death for season three. TC will be needed next season until the crisis for the Reverse Flash, but I really hope that we get a break from his "new" character until late in the season. I have no expectation that he is going any where.

[BeautifulFlower]

On 3/24/2019 at 2:32 PM, Lady Calypso said:

Caitlin is someone who I don't think is needed anymore, but the show clearly still has a use for her. The show clearly LOVES Killer Frost more than Caitlin, at this point, so I don't see her leaving unless DP wants to leave. 

I have a hard time believing this. Look at the way they write Killer Frost. Last season, she mainly showed up for an average of 1 min and she always got knocked out. This season it's basically the same thing. They say she's the key, but haven't proven it. All they've done blast Cicada, freeze his dagger, not being affected by his powers, and that's it. So I really don't think they love Killer Frost.

In my opinion, they write as if they're obligated to write for her. What I mean by that is these writers are writing as if it's in a contract to give Caitlin/KF material.

[adora721]

18 hours ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I have a hard time believing this. Look at the way they write Killer Frost. Last season, she mainly showed up for an average of 1 min and she always got knocked out. This season it's basically the same thing. They say she's the key, but haven't proven it. All they've done blast Cicada, freeze his dagger, not being affected by his powers, and that's it. So I really don't think they love Killer Frost.

In my opinion, they write as if they're obligated to write for her. What I mean by that is these writers are writing as if it's in a contract to give Caitlin/KF material.

It said a lot when the writers picked their favorites to write for and didn't include Caitlin or Killer Frost, not even as a pity like. You'd think one of those characters would excite their imaginations. I think part of the problem is not making full use of Killer Frost's villainous, comic history. They never go all the way with her and can't or won't write a believable redemption. They want to keep Caitlin as "pure" as possible for some reason, despite the fact that she's already tainted with HR Wells' blood, slave trafficking, assault, kidnapping, torture, and attempted murder. And they never wrote her a redemption from any of these, which could have been epic. 

There are things to explore, such as:

• Caitlin having to deal with the guilt and moral turmoil of what she and KF had done in 3x7- S4, plus facing Iris and Cecile after how she treated them, not to mention Cisco and Barry. "Arrow" has done a decent job at rehabilitating E2 Laurel, even had her apologize to the person she hurt most.
•  Or they could play it for laughs (delicately, so as not offend people with real mental disorders) with Caitlin trying to date and KF coming out at inappropriate times.
• Or even Caitlin just trying to make friends outside of SL to whom she'd have to explain the split personality situation.
• Or dealing with former classmates at a reunion at which KF shows up and her old pals ask her about Ronnie, which is something I don't think she's made peace with at all. This would explain her jumping into relations with Faux Jay so quickly or even her crush on Barry (yes, I do think she had feelings for him).
• Or dealing with a former bully, she mentioned being bullied, I think, in S1 or S2.
• I'd also think that if Cait had continued seeing Dr. Finkle to deal with the above, that would have been a great SL to destigmatize mental illness for the watching audience.
• Plus I'd hoped Dr. Finkle would help her see the possibilities of a romance with Cisco. 

DP is third-billed; that's a strong character position, but I suspect a few reasons why none of the above or anything similar has been explored:

1. You need a strong actor to carry these stories, and DP doesn't fit the bill IMO.
2. Caitlin and KF's pasts are so convoluted, it's hard to find firm footing from which to start such a character arc or journey. They've written themselves into a corner.
3. DP refuses to consider a romance for Caitlin with Cisco. I suspect that 
   Spoiler

   DP wants the brass ring for Caitlin, and that's Barry, and won't settle for less. Just my speculation.

   4. As said in other threads, there was no plan B for Caitlin once Robbie Amell left and SB never came to fruition.

Edited March 26, 2019 by adora721

[Trini]

TV Line put out its May Sweeps Scorecard 2019! The Flash episodes that air in May sweeps are the last three for the season: 5.20, 5.21, and 5.22.

Here are the categories I think might apply to the show:

• Couples having sex, kissing or saying “I Love You” for the first time:
  - The only new couple is Cisco/Kamilla; there's a chance of the getting to the ILU stage by the end of the season, if they plan on keeping her around.
   
• New pregnancies:
  - Before I thought Iris might be pregnant by the end of this season since they were moving up the Crisis in the future newspaper, but with Arrow ending and Oliver probably making a sacrifice instead of Barry, she doesn't need to be pregnant so soon. However, there's still a (slim) chance.
   
• Fatalities:
  - Nora (by getting erased from existence/her timeline), and Grace Cicada.
   
• Breakups/separations/divorces:
  - I don't know how serious they are about Cisco/Kamilla, so this is a possibility for them.
   
• Possible fatalities*:
  - Reverse Flash? (But we know he'll be back somehow) Or someone from the cast depending if they want to end the season on a cliffhanger.
   
• Characters leaving town:
  - This could be anybody whether it's permanent or temporary. Barry and Iris are the safest; I think everyone else is fair game.
   
• Resurrections and/or big returns:
  - Again, could be anybody if it's a guest star returning. I don't think Orlin is coming back from the dead.
   
• Time warps/jump:
  - Definitely a possibility. Especially with Nora, Grace, and Reverse Flash changing the timeline.
   
• Surprise/unthinkable crossovers:
  - Set up for the Crisis on Infinite Earths crossover. Maybe the Monitor, or Earth-90 Flash, or someone from Supergirl makes an appearance.

Edited March 26, 2019 by Trini
typos! shakes fist!

[RedVitC]

While I find the sweeps scorecard interesting, it's kind of limited how much guessing can be done because they keep adding numbers to the list as they get information.

I'm not sure where they're going with Cisco and Kamilla. I'm not sure at all about those rumors, but I suppose it could be setting up a Cisco chooses the normal life type decision. On the other hand, if they where planning that why bother having her go to work at the Central City Citizen which gives her and therefore Cisco more ties to the team and not less.

For characters leaving town, maybe Nora as well if she goes back to her own time. I'm still puzzled as to how they can wrap up her storyline this season with COIE not being until next season. Perhaps they'll have her realize she can't change it, everyone agrees and she goes back and then the final scene of the season is Barry and Iris going to check the newspaper thinking everything is ok (as much as it can be with Barry still disappearing) and then they see the headline is now 2019, dun dun dun. It wouldn't be much of a cliffhanger though, since most people are already expecting the headline to be moved.

For time warps/jump: a time warp I could see it with where they are heading. Not sure about a time jump. If they do a timejump they'd probably have to do it on all the arrowverse shows and so far there are only two slots in this section (but again since they can add more anytime that can change)

I remembered the other day that for this season it was mentioned several times that Ralph would find some romance, maybe not necessarily Sue yet, but some romance. So far we haven't really seen it and there doesn't seem to be time for it anymore since there are only 5 episodes left. Maybe it was pushed to next season? 

And I also remember Hartley seemed pretty excited about something coming up for his character during the 100 party carpet interviews (i think) but looking back at what we've seen in 5b I don't know what that could have been? Perhaps it's still upcoming?

 I thought it might have been Sue's introduction, but again, it seems too late for that. At most I could see them introducing her character in a quick -she exists- kind of way, maybe have her interview to work at the citizen at the end of the season (I think she was a socialite in the comics, right? They could make her someone with a lot of connections or an investor or something) and then leave the development to next season.

Since we're talking about Sue, anyone have any fancasts?

[Trini]

1 hour ago, RedVitC said:

I'm not sure where they're going with Cisco and Kamilla. I'm not sure at all about those rumors, but I suppose it could be setting up a Cisco chooses the normal life type decision. On the other hand, if they where planning that why bother having her go to work at the Central City Citizen which gives her and therefore Cisco more ties to the team and not less.

This is my thinking too. It would be weird to bring in Kamilla and lose Cisco.
 

1 hour ago, RedVitC said:

I remembered the other day that for this season it was mentioned several times that Ralph would find some romance, maybe not necessarily Sue yet, but some romance. So far we haven't really seen it and there doesn't seem to be time for it anymore since there are only 5 episodes left. Maybe it was pushed to next season? 

I think that Helbing was planning on bringing in Sue sometime this season (and that's what he told Hartley), but it looks like that idea was dropped; because yeah, it is too late into the season, and I think we would have heard casting news by now. It's possible, but I doubt they would introduce a new character in the finale.