Spoilers and Spoiler Discussion

[SimoneS]

In Nora's memories we learned that Barry does not stop Cicada so why does she tell him the preview that today is the day that he stops him?

[BeautifulFlower]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

In Nora's memories we learned that Barry does not stop Cicada so why does she tell him the preview that today is the day that he stops him?

I think the show implied that Nora being in the present changed Cicada's origin. The one from her future who couldn't be caught possibly wasn't even Orlin.

[adora721]

The motto for season 5 is, "Pay No Attention to Details, They Do Not Matter" or "Continuity? What Continuity!"

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

I think the show implied that Nora being in the present changed Cicada's origin. The one from her future who couldn't be caught possibly wasn't even Orlin.

But it doesn't matter that a different person is now Cicada because the show implied that Grace will become Cicada as an adult so stopping Orlin won't make a difference. Nora is just a mess.

[SimoneS]

@Trini, from the Barry Allen thread:

8 minutes ago, Trini said:

*[Aside: Still can't believe they haven't gone back to Grace after all the stuff we learned about her and Cicada in 5.12. I don't understand this writers room.]

I don't understand Helbing's approach to storytelling. The reveal about Grace was the most interesting thing to occur with Cicada yet they just dropped it. This season has all the elements to be outstanding, but with the exceptions of a few high moments and the rest is bland to rubbish.

[Trini]

12 minutes ago, SimoneS said:

@Trini, from the Barry Allen thread:

I don't understand Helbing's approach to storytelling. The reveal about Grace was the most interesting thing to occur with Cicada yet they just dropped it. This season has all the elements to be outstanding, but with the exceptions of a few high moments and the rest is bland to rubbish.

They did have Joe drop that line about Cicada having a helper, so hopefully they come back to Dr. Ambres and Grace soon; but that still doesn't make up for everything else boring about Cicada and his arc.

[SimoneS]

21 minutes ago, Trini said:

They did have Joe drop that line about Cicada having a helper, so hopefully they come back to Dr. Ambres and Grace soon; but that still doesn't make up for everything else boring about Cicada and his arc.

I had forgotten that Joe mentioned Cicada having help. It would be good to have Joe and Barry pair and investigate like the old days. They could find Dr. Ambres and lay a trap for Orlin.

[Trini]

Also related to 'I don't understand the writers room' - the metahuman cure storyline has been inconsistent. SIGH

Related to that; I'm still thinking that someone in the cast gets dosed with the cure by the end of the season. Willingly or not. (if it doesn't affect someone major, I don't see the point of this plot.)

------

Anyway, I'm optimistic about the Zack Stentz episode, but I've got to remember there's only so much control he has over directing and editing.

[Maverick]

 Yeah, the metahuman cure is causing whiplash.   Why they would give a second thought to using it on Cicada over moral reasons while current and former members of Team Flash are attempted or outright murderers makes no sense.  Didn't a metahuman cure already exist anyway?   That's how they removed Firestorm's powers and separated Stein and Jax.

[Trini]

From the actress that plays Caitlin's mother:

I hope her role is more substantial this time. This should be episode 19.

[SimoneS]

1 hour ago, Trini said:

From the actress that plays Caitlin's mother:

I hope her role is more substantial this time. This should be episode 19.

If only I could bring myself to care. How many more iterations of Killer Frost are we going to be subjected to.

[Trini]

They actually put this out early this time! Producer preview of "Failure is an Orphan":

Is the "unexpected guest" Godspeed? From the previous promo, I thought it was Cicada attacking STAR Labs, but now Helbing is talking about someone else in the mix.

I'm guessing this new presence delays Team Flash from stopping Cicada - of course.

We know Godspeed shows up in 5.18, is there any other info on what villains show up in 5.16 and 5.17?

[RedVitC]

Interesting! Since it's someone that puts a wrinkle in Thawne's plan I think it could be godspeed or some time traveling speedster, someone who Thawne couldn't plan for. 

Or...maybe another member of the West-Allen family? 

Last week during an Instagram live Danielle apparently said there is a big moment at the end of the episode

[Trini]

40 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

Last week during an Instagram live Danielle apparently said there is a big moment at the end of the episode

Sounds like it might be something in the future/Thawne sideplot, because the next episode description doesn't mention anything major. But then again, they might not mention it anyway.

[SimoneS]

I don't think that it is Godspeed. He is appearing in 18 and maybe also in19. Btw, there was a supposed leak on 4Chan that Team Flash will be teaming up Godspeed next season. 

I think that it is more likely adult Grace attacking Thawne in the future. Nora will discover that giving Orlin the cure is not enough, that they have to give it to Grace also.

Edited March 12, 2019 by SimoneS

[RedVitC]

17 hours ago, Trini said:

Sounds like it might be something in the future/Thawne sideplot, because the next episode description doesn't mention anything major. But then again, they might not mention it anyway.

If there is a big moment, I like that they kept it a bit more mysterious (even if we did find out, lol). The marketing, promos, descriptions and even the way some actors/Ep answer questions (flat out telling you whether this or that storyline is or isn't going to happen) tend to give a lot away for this show. 

There was a Flash preview in DC Daily:

Nothing that we don't know, but Hector does say:

Quote

"Apparently Nora, who is from the future may I remind you, has a problem with this plan. Now look, If you have somebody on your team who is from the future, whether they are a young person or not, a teenager or not, that doesn't matter, I would listen to them. I would listen to them. They're from the future, ok"

So it looks like Nora is going to be right about her objection to the plan

[SimoneS]

13 minutes ago, RedVitC said:

So it looks like Nora is going to be right about her objection to the plan

The way this season is going, we know the plan was never going to work anyway. Ha! 

[Trini]

From the Flashtime promo, it looks like they actually do get to give the cure to Cicada; and Dr. Ambres is in STAR Labs helping them. I know they can continue it with Grace, but I'm still not going to get my hopes up about this being the end of Cicada/Orlin.

I know different people are in charge of different parts of marketing/PR, but it's odd that Iris wasn't in the Flashtime promo when she in the promo stills of the episode.

[Trini]

[SimoneS]

32 minutes ago, Trini said:

From the Flashtime promo, it looks like they actually do get to give the cure to Cicada; and Dr. Ambres is in STAR Labs helping them. I know they can continue it with Grace, but I'm still not going to get my hopes up about this being the end of Cicada/Orlin.

Grace as a child is in week's episode so whatever happens tonight, Cicada is not gone. Maybe we will get adult Grace as Cicada. I still think that we will see Orlin again.

Edited March 12, 2019 by SimoneS

[SimoneS]

In the promo below for the next episode, we see the time machine that Grace used to travel back in time. Interestingly, Sherloque is sitting in Thawne's old wheelchair. This must be how he gets the final clue and figures out that Nora is working with Thawne. He will tell Barry before Nora can.

[Brinny]

3 hours ago, SimoneS said:

In the promo below for the next episode, we see the time machine that Grace used to travel back in time. Interestingly, Sherloque is sitting in Thawne's old wheelchair. This must be how he gets the final clue and figures out that Nora is working with Thawne. He will tell Barry before Nora can.

Aww, man. Barry's gonna cry. I hate it when Barry cries.

(Except not really, because Grant Gustin cries very beautifully. For real, he does. It's just that, when Barry cries, I cry, and I am the opposite of  GG crier. I'm all gross and blubbery. I basically turn into that Kevin Smith reaction video*.)

*I don't mean to infer that Kevin Smith is the same kind of gross and blubbery crier that I am. Just that neither of us delicately shed tears like a movie starlet**. 

**Yes, I said "starlet". But there's no male equivalent to my knowledge. 

Also, the beginning of this promo looks like they're shooting a Jurassic Park sequel. 

[Trini]

22 minutes ago, Brinny said:

Aww, man. Barry's gonna cry. I hate it when Barry cries.

Grant gets to do some Acting™ next week!

[SimoneS]

Barry crying is so predictable. I wish his immediate reaction was shock and anger without the tears just to change it up. Honestly, I was looking forward to the reveal, but with the three weeks of reruns after 17, I just feel annoyed. 

[Trini]

On 3/12/2019 at 9:47 PM, SimoneS said:

Interestingly, Sherloque is sitting in Thawne's old wheelchair. This must be how he gets the final clue and figures out that Nora is working with Thawne. He will tell Barry before Nora can.

I mean I know he's going to figure it out before everyone else (because heaven forbid the 6 other detectives on the team notice something that's been going on the entire season before this year's irrelevant addition...), but please let Nora have this one thing since she's been the central story this season.
 

17 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Barry crying is so predictable. I wish his immediate reaction was shock and anger without the tears just to change it up.

There will definitely be anger, but it will be directed at Thawne.

[Trini]

On 3/12/2019 at 9:47 PM, SimoneS said:

In the promo below for the next episode, we see the time machine that Grace used to travel back in time.

I'm assuming that Eobard Thawne himself gave Gracada the time machine (because, really, who else?) - but how? And when? Did he use Nora to do it? Gideon? Was it before he got captured?

--

Anyway looking forward to seeing more of the Cicada that's actually a threat. I assume her next step is to hide/protect her younger self, or have Uncle Orlin do it.

[SimoneS]

15 hours ago, Trini said:

but please let Nora have this one thing since she's been the central story this season.

Nora has had months to tell the truth and has refused to do so. She has definitely earned the moment.

15 hours ago, Trini said:

I'm assuming that Eobard Thawne himself gave Gracada the time machine (because, really, who else?) - but how? And when? Did he use Nora to do it? Gideon? Was it before he got captured?

I think that Thawne definitely gave Grace the time machine and the info about when to go back to stop Team Flash from using the meta cure on her. All along I have been musing how Nora could be so sure that Thawne could stop Cicada when he couldn't be sure who would become Cicada after she helped Barry with the satellite. Now it is even more obvious that Thawne must have known that Orlin and Grace would be hit by the shards because he knows adult Grace. How though? Maybe Thawne has been mentoring her secretly like he has Nora, two fatherless damaged daughters and now that he has been captured, he is using both of them to escape. 

15 hours ago, Trini said:

Anyway looking forward to seeing more of the Cicada that's actually a threat. I assume her next step is to hide/protect her younger self, or have Uncle Orlin do it.

I am really hoping that Grace continues to up the Cicada danger. She already took out Team Flash like they were children at play. I wouldn't be surprised if after Orlin realizes how dangerous and obsessive Grace has become, he asks Team Flash to help him give child Grace the cure. Maybe Grace kills Orlin by accident or he is killed trying to stop her and she goes even crazier.

Edited March 14, 2019 by SimoneS

[rogvortex58]

So it’s looking more like Godspeed was the speedster who helped FutureGrace travel back in time.

I don’t see how it could be Thawne.

[Maverick]

I'm not sure Thawne helped Grace either.  Unless it was just show for Nora, Thawne couldn't read the new timeline due to someone else interfering. 

[Trini]

1 hour ago, SimoneS said:

All along I have been musing how Nora could be so sure that Thawne could stop Cicada when he couldn't be sure who would become Cicada after she helped Barry with the satellite. Now it is even more obvious that Thawne must have known that Orlin and Grace would be hit by the shards because he knows adult Grace. How though?

Nora's been changing the timeline this whole time. Maybe Thawne didn't know at first, but he knows about Orlin and Grace now. I think because history itself has changed and because of the notes Nora has been sending back.

Even if the variables have changed somewhat (and some of that is his own meddling), I think he's using it all for his plan to escape and/or kill Barry.

14 minutes ago, Maverick said:

I'm not sure Thawne helped Grace either.  Unless it was just show for Nora, Thawne couldn't read the new timeline due to someone else interfering. 

I still think it could be Thawne; he couldn't read the new timeline because Future Grace hadn't interfered yet.

Godspeed is a possibility; but I don't see why he would want to send Grace to the past. (And we don't know anything about this version of Godspeed yet, but from what I've read about the comic character, it's more likely that he would be stopping Cicada, not helping her.)

[BeautifulFlower]

5.17 photos are out

Ugh, I swear if Nora is telling her secret in front of the whole team.........

Why couldn't it be a private family moment? Sure they're all will feel betrayed, but who's gonna feel hurt the most? Her parents. 

[Trini]

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Ugh, I swear if Nora is telling her secret in front of the whole team.........

You know it is... 😞

They all look devastated.
 

1 hour ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Why couldn't it be a private family moment? Sure they're all will feel betrayed, but who's gonna feel hurt the most? Her parents. 

Because Sherloque has to be the one to out her.  SIGHHHHhhhhhhhhh.....

Edited March 14, 2019 by Trini

[SimoneS]

How do you know that Sherloque reveals Nora's secret? I thought that he would, but the photos don't confirm it?

56 minutes ago, BeautifulFlower said:

Ugh, I swear if Nora is telling her secret in front of the whole team.........

Why couldn't it be a private family moment? Sure they're all will feel betrayed, but who's gonna feel hurt the most? Her parents. 

Well, Nora had her chance to tell her parents in private and decided not to. Besides it is  more drama this way.

[RedVitC]

I think Sherloque not standing among those shocked people points to him standing on the other side of the room and possibly telling them. Maybe Nora was planning on telling Barry and Iris in private later, but Sherloque tells the team. In the trailer it looks like he finds something which probably leads him to finding out.

This image is interesting. You see Caitlin has is now standing next to Iris and Ralph has turned to Iris. And Nora is standing closer now. I think Barry speeds away

[RedVitC]

I think it might be the end of the episode since Barry's outfits looks the same as what he is wearing in the videos of  Barry and Nora from the filming  of episode 18. But then again, most of Barry's outfits look the same, lol

[SimoneS]

The more I think about it, the more I think it is right that Sherloque reveals Nora's lies or forces her to reveal them in front of everyone. She betrayed them all, putting their lives and future into terrible danger from Thawne. It probably won't cause a big rift since they will likely forgive her in two seconds anyway. I remember Grant saying in an interview to the effect that it won't cause a big problem. RME.

I think Grace/Cicada will be going after that meta because she had something to do with her parents death. 

Edited March 14, 2019 by SimoneS

[SimoneS]

Thinking about it, even if Thawne is behind Grace's trip to the past, I don't see how Godspeed could be. Grace is back to save her younger self from being given the cure. She is a danger to Godspeed so that won't benefit him in anyway. Maybe Grace is back on her own or working with someone else, but I can't shake the belief that Thawne is involved somehow. Grace is using the time travel pod that Thawne has used before. She arrived just before her younger self was to be given the cure. She knew to go to Star Labs to find Orlin. Other than Nora, Thawne is the only person in the future that had all these pieces of info. 

I still don't understand how stopping Cicada (if that he what he is really attempting to do) will help Thawne escape his fate in Iron Heights. The only thing I can come up with is that Cicada is the reason that Thawne was captured and imprisoned in Iron Heights..

Edited March 15, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

Matt's Inside Line:

Quote

Why did The Flash’s adult Grace kill the doctor that was taking care of her as a child and helping her uncle? —TBookFan

I ran this question by guest star Sarah Carter (Falling Skies) just moments before publishing this column, as I too was shocked to see Future Grace slay (the admittedly unethical) Ambres. “In the next episode, the answer to that becomes clear,” she said. “But I can tell you that she feels like the doctor took her uncle’s powers away” — and adult Grace is now out to restore them.

https://tvline.com/2019/03/15/legends-of-tomorrow-season-4-spoilers-super-suits-kid-steel/

[SimoneS]

Grace trying to get Orlin's powers back is not what I expected. All she needed to do is return to the past a few minutes early and he would still have his powers.

[Trini]

Two more photos for "Time Bomb" were released - both of Grace Cicada:

[SimoneS]

The Flash | Inside: Time Bomb | The CW

[SimoneS]

Based on the Inside "Time Bomb" segment, Thawne didn't know about Grace. She throws a wrinkle in Thawne's plan and doesn't know how to stop her so he tells her to tell Barry. Sherloque has figured out that she is working with Thawne.

Below is a screen grab of her translated journal entries (it can be enlarged). Nora really is an idiot. My sympathies to Barry and Iris on having her as a daughter.

Edited March 16, 2019 by SimoneS

[Maverick]

Nora mentions handling your car when it slides on ice.  So much for teaching her how to drive, Iris and Barry.  

[SimoneS]

I hope that at least Iris reads those journal entries full of all the lies that Nora has told and then refuses to let Nora blame her for her betrayal and bad judgment.

I still don't understand the point of Nora working with Thawne and returning to the past to kill Cicada. This is a man who is imprisoned for terrible crimes, is responsible for her father disappearing, and now she knows that he killed her father. WTH, Nora?!

Edited March 16, 2019 by SimoneS

[ottoDbusdriver]

From that screen grab, I don't get Nora talking about "the changes" that will occur when they finally get Cicada and return to her normal time. 

She's going back and forth ALL THE TIME so she should be noticing changes already.

I'm curious if Nora keeps returning to the future in the same time increments as she spends in the past ?  For example, If she spends 3 days in the past, does she return to the future 3 days after her last visit.  She's a time traveler, she can go back to the future to any time -- or does this just make for easier, linear story-telling ?

[SimoneS]

I think that Nora was sending messages to Thawne via Gideon up until she found out that he murdered her grandmother. The first time we saw the countdown clock when she visited him it was at 51:55. In the preview for Tuesday's episode it is 11:59 so she has been going back and forth to visit only Thawne over that 40 minute period. 

The countdown is either to Thawne's death or to him being given the cure. I expect by the time they stop Cicada, he will have never been captured and will no longer be in that cell.

Edited March 17, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

8 hours ago, SimoneS said:

The Flash | Inside: Time Bomb | The CW

Wonder why they put this out so early....

Also surprised that Gracada is not part of Thawne's plan  -- And what is his plan exactly? Come on, we know there's got to be more to it than him being "helpful" to Nora. I hope this is some type of fake out.

Where would Grace get a time machine??

Disappointing that it looks like Nora will finally 'fess up, but only after being pushed by Thawne, Wells, and the circumstances.

I wasn't really expecting Barry or Iris to be suspicious of Nora (although they should be), but it's silly that Sherloque is the only one asking the tough questions about why she's here, what is she doing, and how she might be affecting things.

---

I know the Godspeed episode is coming up and there's supposed to be some future scenes, but I don't think I'm going to get the answers I'm hoping for about the future (re: Team Flash; the West-Allen family; or even Eobard). It'd be great if they prove me wrong, but this is looking like Savitar all over again with 'too little, too late' reveals.

[ottoDbusdriver]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

Where would Grace get a time machine??

I'd be searching the woods outside Central City for a Delorean.  :)

Edited March 17, 2019 by ottoDbusdriver

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, Trini said:

Wonder why they put this out so early....

My guess, the series low ratings pushed them to make more effort with the PR. 

6 hours ago, Trini said:

Disappointing that it looks like Nora will finally 'fess up, but only after being pushed by Thawne, Wells, and the circumstances.

Nora is consistent if nothing else. How she has been written has been such a let down for me. I was expecting a child raised by Iris to have a stronger moral compass. Too bad the writers only focused on the drama.

6 hours ago, Trini said:

I know the Godspeed episode is coming up and there's supposed to be some future scenes, but I don't think I'm going to get the answers I'm hoping for about the future (re: Team Flash; the West-Allen family; or even Eobard). It'd be great if they prove me wrong, but this is looking like Savitar all over again with 'too little, too late' reveals.

I think we will find out Thawne's plan, but not much else. 

Edited March 17, 2019 by SimoneS

[Trini]

On 3/16/2019 at 6:35 PM, SimoneS said:

Based on the Inside "Time Bomb" segment, Thawne didn't know about Grace. She throws a wrinkle in Thawne's plan and doesn't know how to stop her so he tells her to tell Barry.

Todd has a history of straight up lying about plot twists, so I'm still thinking that Thawne is still somehow connected to Grace. But, we'll see how things shake out by the end of the season.

Edited March 18, 2019 by Trini