The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[RadioGirl27]

3 hours ago, Souris said:

I think A&E basically sacrificed S6 for a possible S7. They knew going in that the contracts were up for all the original cast members. I would bet they also knew going in that Gosh wouldn't be back -- and that Jen was unlikely to return. Instead of saying, "OK, let's wrap this up this season and end with the whole cast," they wanted to keep going. So they sidelined Emma, CS and Snowing even more to get fans used to that, and pushed Regina to the forefront even more, knowing that Lana was probably the most likely to return. ABC was probably more cautious, hence wanting A&E to pitch a possible S7 to them. Hook's three-ep adventures with all the guest stars were essentially A&E showing ABC what it could be, a version of a backdoor pilot.

A&E wanted to keep going more than they wanted to do right by the fans and the characters with a satisfactory closure.

I agree with you, except that I think they knew Gosh were leaving but they thought Jennifer was going to stay. 

[Souris]

3 hours ago, RadioGirl27 said:

I agree with you, except that I think they knew Gosh were leaving but they thought Jennifer was going to stay. 

Then why sideline CS and Emma the way they did? They may have thought Jen would sign on in the end, but they had to realize that maybe she wouldn't.

[RadioGirl27]

The also sidelined CS in season 4, especially 4B, and also in 5B, so it's not new.

They are quite arrogant. They probably thought they would convince her to stay if not as a regular, at least for more than one episode. 

[Rumsy4]

CS was sidelined in season 4, but not Emma. Emma herself became a secondary character this season. The main players of season 6 were Regina/EQ and Rumple. On a lower tier came Emma and Hook separately. Even below were CS, Snowing, etc.. A&E had to have known JMo might not sign on for more seasons. Colin was under contract. They could go either way with Carlyle, so they gave a big focus to Rumple drama. But all Emma got was savior-shakes and a prophecy of doom.

[KingOfHearts]

IMO, Regina hasn't that much focus in S6, if you don't count the Evil Queen shenanigans. Her only centric has been 6x14, "Page 23". She's definitely been on screen a lot, but she has no ongoing story. Fake!Robin was a red herring. She dropped him like a dried up tuna sandwich. Emma and Hook have had more substantial material to work with that has spanned across both arcs, but especially Emma. As for the quality of their story, now that's a different... story.

4B and 5B were both much more Regina-heavy to me.

[oncebluethrone]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

IMO, Regina hasn't that much focus in S6, if you don't count the Evil Queen shenanigans. Her only centric has been 6x14, "Page 23". She's definitely been on screen a lot, but she has no ongoing story. Fake!Robin was a red herring. She dropped him like a dried up tuna sandwich. Emma and Hook have had more substantial material to work with that has spanned across both arcs, but especially Emma.

I completely agree

[TheGreenKnight]

I think the possibility of a seventh season hurt the writing of this season quite a bit.

Spoiler

 

 If it's confirmed a 7th season would revolve--or would have revolved, if the show does get cancelled--around the Wish Realm, that may also be a reason Untold Stories/Hyde was hastily written out (aside from Dungey deciding to replace it with Aladdin, I mean). If S7 is the Wish Realm, Outlaw Queen may be at the center of S7 and they wouldn't exactly want to introduce a new love interest (Hyde) for Regina if that were the case. Of course, this is just if you think, like myself, that Hyde was being setup for that direction at the end of S5.

It's also likely the reason why Zelena and Regina's relationship took a nonsensical dive instead of the close interactions I expected coming into S6, because they wouldn't want viewers to get used to a prominent Zelena-Regina relationship if Zelena is not being carried over into the seventh season.

 

I hate that a looming seventh season reboot (that was never going to be as good as the main cast/original) really screwed the end for these characters. The only thing good to have come out of S6 at all was the musical ep, imo.

[Shanna Marie]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

Regina hasn't that much focus in S6, if you don't count the Evil Queen shenanigans. Her only centric has been 6x14, "Page 23". She's definitely been on screen a lot, but she has no ongoing story.

And that would be the problem right there. The character who's on screen the most gets the weakest writing without much of a story. That means there's a lot of time wasted on stuff that doesn't really matter. It means that viewers who like Regina still aren't getting anything satisfying for the character, and viewers who dislike her are getting a double whammy, lots of Regina and no substance.

[Camera One]

From EW interview.

But I think we — Eddy and I — felt that as we approached season 6, the time had come to close the chapter on a lot of the stories we had been telling, which was the impetus behind this season finale, and open some new chapters.

Basically, they're still claiming it's all their idea and they weren't pushed to do anything.  Yet, they "crafted" such a craptastic Season 6 even for them, that IF this were actually true going into Season 6, they are even worse writers than I thought.

[Camera One]

More inane quotes, this one from The Hollywood Report interview.

Quote

Once did hit a string of series lows in season six. How do you hope to bring new viewers back and broaden the show to those who haven't tuned in before?

Kitsis: You can’t really control ratings. Every year ratings go down and everyone reacts like it’s the first time. I think that though ratings are down, what’s interesting is the fan base continues to be up, so we’ll still trend and all those things. That being said, we feel it’s a great way next year for new viewers to come in and not be burdened with knowing the six years of mythology. You can come in fresh next year, and I think if you like fairytales and you like magic, you should check it out.

So it's completely not their fault the ratings are down.  So next year, new viewers won't need to know ANY mythology.  Yeah right.  

Edited May 15, 2017 by Camera One

[RadioGirl27]

The lack of self-awareness of Adam and Eddy is astonishing.

Adam has released the script for the last scene of the finale, and the last line is so laughable, it seems writen by a 13 years old.

Quote

And as our heads explode and we realize there's a lot more to our story - CUT TO BLACK.

[Kktjones]

Omg - I'm cringing with second-hand embarrassment :(. People figured it out from the second the casting notice was released and I don't think any heads exploded... 

[Camera One]

They're so pathetic it's not even funny.  They probably put more thought into that idiotic endnote than they did on the final moments between the various exiting characters.  That's how little they care.

They also say this would still have been the ending if the show had NOT been renewed.  They don't give a damn about the people who watch the show.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, RadioGirl27 said:

The lack of self-awareness of Adam and Eddy is astonishing.

Adam has released the script for the last scene of the finale, and the last line is so laughable, it seems writen by a 13 years old.

That last line is likely a perfect example of why the show goes to air with so many obvious flaws and plot holes and shallow character development.

The bosses are literally writing into the scripts that this is the most awesome development ever and in doing so cutting off any opportunity for the staff (writers/directors/actors) to offer constructive critique.  I guarantee that if they would write something so juvenile into a script (and see nothing wrong with the level of professionalism that they post it) that there are all kinds of other deterrents to feedback and improvement. 

You know, at times like these I think I may actually be using OUAT as a proxy to vent about my job by trying to dissect and understand the illogical decision making. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by ParadoxLost

[Shanna Marie]

1 hour ago, ParadoxLost said:

The bosses are literally writing into the scripts that this is the most awesome development ever and in doing so cutting off any opportunity for the staff (writers/directors/actors) to offer constructive critique.  I guarantee that if they would write something so juvenile into a script (and see nothing wrong with the level of professionalism that they post it) that there are all kinds of other deterrents to feedback and improvement. 

And all this is the sort of stuff that screenwriting teachers say you should never put into a script because it makes you look juvenile and amateur.

Then there's this quote from the Wrap interview:

Quote

To be quite honest, we haven’t looked at a lot of it because we can guess that the reactions [range] from, “I will never watch this show again,” and “Rot in hell.” But these are the same people two weeks ago that were saying, “When are they going to give someone their happy ending?” So if we listened to the internet, there’s too many voices and too many opinions.

And that might be the problem right there, that they think that "Rot in hell" because of a character leaving and "when are they going to give someone their happy ending?" are contradictory and mutually exclusive. The "Rot in hell" is because they tease us with a happy ending, then make casting decisions that will inevitably rip it away, or else the happy endings aren't very satisfactory and result in people being stuck in a life they were cursed into having.

Yes, I know that Jen leaving wasn't their decision, but I can't help but think that they're partially to blame because with better writing for her character, she might have been willing to stick around. All the "I want to get back home and pursue other things" sounds a lot like a case of "it's not you, it's me (but it's totally you)." It's like breaking up with someone and claiming it's because you want to focus on your career.

[Camera One]

Someone was complaining about Emma not getting the ending they wanted her to get, and Jane Espenson responded.  I think it shows what the Writing Team considers to be an adequate happy ending.  

Jane Espenson‏ @JaneEspenson  
 @therollygoger They got a wedding and family and love and work they love and friends and a town and success and life.

--

This is why in their minds, showing a happy montage is enough.  

[Souris]

51 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Yes, I know that Jen leaving wasn't their decision, but I can't help but think that they're partially to blame because with better writing for her character, she might have been willing to stick around. All the "I want to get back home and pursue other things" sounds a lot like a case of "it's not you, it's me (but it's totally you)." It's like breaking up with someone and claiming it's because you want to focus on your career.

In the TVLine interview that came out today, in answering the question of what's next for her and what she's been doing, after listing all the stuff she's been doing since filming ended, she said that she was feeling "creatively fulfilled." You can't tell me that wasn't a bit of shade. There is nothing about what they have given her to do on Once lately that could be considered creatively fulfilling, and she strikes me as one of those actors who really craves that. Some actors are content to do the same thing constantly as long as it's steady work; some aren't.

[KAOS Agent]

She also listed the Dark Swan arc as the most interesting for her to play because it allowed Emma to stretch a bit. That and the S3 finale were her favorites. You can't tell me that Jen wasn't bored as hell with the constant WALLS!Emma that the writers were giving Emma. She didn't need the paycheck badly enough to continue with the crap they hand these actors. 

The writers interviews came off as really arrogant and self impressed, while the actors' exit interviews were polite, but had subtle digs at the writing. It just seems really telling that so many of the actors' favorite moments occurred in the first three seasons. I bet if you ask the writers about their favorite scenes, they will list later season stuff where they think their twists or a totally wtf moment are the best thing ever. Actors try to do what they think a character will do, but the writers are all about plot and shoving a character into it whether it fits or not.

[Camera One]

Yeah, Ginny's were the pilot and "Snow Falls", and the fact that she mentioned sitting on a log with Emma in "Lost Girl" as one of her memorable scenes, I think, shows that she did value character moments for Snow.  Her last pick was Regina taking out her heart in Season 2 after Cora died, which was neither here nor there, but maybe that was just interesting to play?

Edited May 16, 2017 by Camera One

[Daisy]

i have to say - and I haven't read a lot of their interviews... 
A+E  (and it sounds like Jane too)... are really. really deluded. I don't even think it's arrogance (maybe it is) but just... it's really shocking to be that unaware of how much people are not happy and blame it on "lol, the internetz." 

You have an entire show based on the premise of happy endings. so when people ask you where it is, why isn't it achieved - and then they tell you to Rot in Hell, instead of being all "well we can't listen to them coz conflicting opinions.." maybe realize it's not conflicting. they want you to rot in hell because no one got them, and they don't want to buy in anymore. we've been burned way too many times. 
 

[Rumsy4]

59 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

You can't tell me that Jen wasn't bored as hell with the constant WALLS!Emma that the writers were giving Emma. She didn't need the paycheck badly enough to continue with the crap they hand these actors. 

Exactly this! If the Show gets stretched on to season 8 by the mercy of Netflix, that's two more years of working with crap, and Emma being sidelined for Regina and guest stars. 

[KAOS Agent]

I think the writers try to pretend like fan service is not their job or that it is detrimental to their artist's vision, which can be true to a point, but when you are writing a fairy tale and constantly discussing happy endings, then you give the damn fans what they want at the end. This was it. The big finale for many of their beloved characters. Give them closure. Give Emma & her parents an actual discussion. Let Emma & Hook speak to each other for more than 10 seconds. Let Belle & Rumpel have a conversation where they talk about trying again, but require them to work through their past problems and then have a moment as a family with the baby. This is what the fans have been waiting for. The last page where everyone lives happily ever after. You can't give people a short montage where everything's fine even though there a so many lingering issues that they can't possibly be happy, and then add a moment at the end that completely destroys that happy ending. How can they not understand that people are wondering what the hell happened? 

You can't have a show that repeatedly has characters talking about happy endings and has had multiple season long arcs with characters trying to achieve it and then pretend like oh life goes on and there is no such thing as a happy ending. We're so realistic. That's life. What's the point of the show then? Why talk about happy endings at all? Why not teach the characters that happy endings aren't really an achievable thing instead of having this idea of happy endings validated by all of your characters and the plot?

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Give them closure. Give Emma & her parents an actual discussion. Let Emma & Hook speak to each other for more than 10 seconds. Let Belle & Rumpel have a conversation where they talk about trying again, but require them to work through their past problems and then have a moment as a family with the baby. This is what the fans have been waiting for.

If you put together the 3A and 3B finales, you've got a series finale that blows what we got away. 3A's finale had oodles of character moments between the characters we wanted to see. Everyone had the chance to interact with someone else in a meaningful way. It was well-balanced. Plus, it felt like all the characters were contributing. You didn't have Rumple and Henry in one corner saving the day while the rest just sat on their hands in the other. Sure, Rumple made the big sacrifice to stop Pan, but: Regina stopped Pan's Curse, Hook/Charming/Tink/Neal destroyed the Shadow, and Emma made the bold decision to take care of Henry in New York. Even with the characters that didn't accomplish as much, they had still had important moments.

The 3B finale was more of an adventure. However, the questing directly serviced the characters. It wasn't filler. Emma learned what her place was in her universe. The Captain Swan flames kindled. The writers did retread Snow Falls, much like the Emma/Henry S1 dynamic in the S6 finale, but enough was changed to prevent it from being a glorified repeat. It wasn't about Snow and Charming meeting. It was a new experience for Emma. It gave her development, which presented a purpose. (It helps that time travel is more fun than the Black Fairy going around with teeth to kick.)

S3 is the gold standard as far as OUAT is concerned, imo.

[InsertWordHere]

The more A&E say thing like they had this time skip planned a year ago and that GG and JD told them a year ago they were leaving, the more annoyed I get. You had a year and this is what you came up with? Even if I'm being nice and assuming they really thought JMo would sign, they still gave Snowing and Belle almost nothing for a whole year. Snowing's sleeping curse would have been worth it if we had significant interaction between Snow and the other characters and Charming and the other characters but normally they were just doing what everyone does on this show, chasing the MacGuffin of the week! And when they did know JMo was leaving, they kept Snowing and Hook apart from Emma for an hour and 45 minutes in the finale. 

Edited May 16, 2017 by InsertWordHere

[Rumsy4]

4 minutes ago, InsertWordHere said:

And when they did know JMo was leaving, they kept Snowing and Hook apart from Emma for an hour and 45 minutes.

I feel so enraged whenever I think of this! 

[Kktjones]

11 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I feel so enraged whenever I think of this! 

Join the club! I mean the Black Fairy got more screen time with Emma than Hook or her parents did! Really shows that they never really cared about either relationship. And then when they did decide to shoehorn in one conversations with Emma during the street fight scene - it went to Regina of all people :(.

[Souris]

It goes with their track record of sidelining characters and relationships before they're written off. They ALWAYS did that.

[Mari]

On 5/15/2017 at 2:27 AM, Camera One said:

More inane quotes, this one from The Hollywood Report interview.

So it's completely not their fault the ratings are down.  So next year, new viewers won't need to know ANY mythology.  Yeah right.  

So, they don't have a clue that what they're providing is a service, do they?  Bad service can doom a business, guys.  It's a little bit your fault.  (More than a little, but let's start with baby steps.)

On 5/15/2017 at 9:54 AM, Kktjones said:

Omg - I'm cringing with second-hand embarrassment :(. People figured it out from the second the casting notice was released and I don't think any heads exploded... 

Do explosions of rage count?  Because there was some rage-induced brainfetti floating around my living room much of th season.

Edited May 16, 2017 by Mari
S and D are different letters.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Bad service can doom a business, guys.  It's a little bit your fault.  (More than a little, but let's start with baby steps.)

A&E have gotten away with seven seasons, despite the low ratings. Their arrogance and lack of skill has only gotten validated.

[Mari]

2 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

A&E have gotten away with seven seasons, despite the low ratings. Their arrogance and lack of skill has only gotten validated.

True.  Sadly true.

At the same time, though, I'd be shocked if next season's ratings are anything but abysmal --and properly treated, this was a concept that could've gone longer.  

Plus, how interested are networks going to be in this team?  Much of the fan base now actively despise them.  Even if they get another show, how many fans will be willing to give it a shot?

Personally, I've got showrunners I'll always give a chance, showrunners  who I always wait a couple seasons, and these guys --that I'll avoid like I would Regina.

It wouldn't be much of a shock if reality gives them a big, wet raspberry in the next couple years.

[superloislane]

ABC has already given them two other shows in the last six years and they were both cancelled after one season. Once is all they have and as was said much of that fanbase despise them.

[Shanna Marie]

18 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

She also listed the Dark Swan arc as the most interesting for her to play because it allowed Emma to stretch a bit. That and the S3 finale were her favorites. You can't tell me that Jen wasn't bored as hell with the constant WALLS!Emma that the writers were giving Emma.

Not to mention spending an entire season doing little more than making her hand shake -- with no explanation for the shakes, ever. The whole doom thing was about the Black Fairy coming, but it didn't seem to be linked to the shakes. Aladdin had the shakes, but he didn't have the Black Fairy after him (that we know of). It's rather pointless to be a Savior if being the Savior renders you useless when you're facing your biggest challenge. And then there's all the contradictory stuff -- I wonder how she found the inner rationalization to try to make it convincing that Emma really believed that Hook had never loved her. She did all that research into the Dark Swan stuff, and then her part in that arc wasn't all that much, so you've got to wonder if that was the beginning of the end for her, to do all that work and then be given so little to work with, and not even be clued in on whatever was going on with her character. Didn't they say something about Colin figuring it out, and he was the one who told her his guess before the writers let her in on what Emma was really up to?

Her final season involved making her hand shake, very few scenes with the other characters who provide interesting interactions with her character (and who seem to be her closest friends on the set), and hitting the same WALLS note over and over again. If they wanted her to stick around, they could have given her something more to do. Just a bit of domestic Emma, seeing how someone who's been alone all her life and never really had a "home" deals with suddenly having that picket fence existence she always dreamed of, might have been interesting. Having some actual adventures and dealing with that kind of crisis. Rescues and real sword fights. Fun stuff to do.

[Souris]

39 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Her final season involved making her hand shake, very few scenes with the other characters who provide interesting interactions with her character (and who seem to be her closest friends on the set), and hitting the same WALLS note over and over again. If they wanted her to stick around, they could have given her something more to do. 

Which makes me wonder if A&E actually wanted her NOT to come back. Like they were doing stuff they knew wouldn't make her happy or fulfilled.

[Shanna Marie]

37 minutes ago, Souris said:

Which makes me wonder if A&E actually wanted her NOT to come back. Like they were doing stuff they knew wouldn't make her happy or fulfilled.

I don't think they're that self-aware. That would mean they knew they weren't writing the most awesome stuff ever. Plus, her contract was up, so if they wanted her out, all they had to do was not renew her contract. It sounds like they were planning around her and were surprised that she didn't want to stick around.

[Souris]

4 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

I don't think they're that self-aware. That would mean they knew they weren't writing the most awesome stuff ever. Plus, her contract was up, so if they wanted her out, all they had to do was not renew her contract. It sounds like they were planning around her and were surprised that she didn't want to stick around.

Good point about their self-awareness. Or maybe they knew she wasn't likely to stick around and did their usual thing of losing interest and ignoring a character way ahead of time when they know they're leaving.

[Camera One]

They clearly had no idea what to do with Emma.  All they knew was she was going to get married.  They see no story for a happy couple except contrived separations, or disagreements.

If someone just watched the Season 6 premiere and the Season 6 finale, it would seem totally lame.  Emma had a prophesy she would die.  She "died" and was kissed Henry and came back to life.  The person who did the stabbing was completely irrelevant in the long run.  The reason Emma was dying was still unclear 20 odd episodes later.  What else was irrelevant between the beginning and the ending?  The Land of Untold Stories, Hyde, Aladdin/Jasmine, Hook murdering Charming's dad, The Black Fairy, the list goes on and on.  

[Guest]

24 minutes ago, Souris said:

Good point about their self-awareness. Or maybe they knew she wasn't likely to stick around and did their usual thing of losing interest and ignoring a character way ahead of time when they know they're leaving.

I've seen this enough times on enough shows that I think it might be a deliberate tactic to try to wean the casual audience off a departing character.  

[KAOS Agent]

I don't get why they couldn't write a storyline for Emma. Send her on an adventure. Have her go with Aladdin to save Agrabah on a Saviour mission. It's not that hard. This season had no thematic overarching plot anyway, so having her off elsewhere wouldn't have affected anything and at least would have made Aladdin/Jasmine/Jafar somewhat relevant. 

[Souris]

20 minutes ago, ParadoxLost said:

I've seen this enough times on enough shows that I think it might be a deliberate tactic to try to wean the casual audience off a departing character.  

Highly likely. I think that was their plan for CaptainSwan, too. They sidelined the hell out of them very deliberately.

[Shanna Marie]

53 minutes ago, Souris said:

Or maybe they knew she wasn't likely to stick around and did their usual thing of losing interest and ignoring a character way ahead of time when they know they're leaving.

I just think that they weren't all that interested in Emma -- and never had been. My guess is that they pitched that "the Evil Queen gets a happy ending" series concept and got zero interest, so they had to add a more conventional heroine to get the series made, and so they always felt forced to have Emma involved. Even when an arc has supposedly been about her, it usually ends up being about someone else. At least this time she actually did fight the "climactic" (using the term loosely) fight. Normally, she ends up frozen on the sidelines. But in this case, she was the victim of their problems in set up and payoff -- if a character is involved in the setup, they won't be involved in the payoff, and vice versa. They probably thought they were writing about Emma -- after all, she had the doom prophecy, moved in with Hook, got engaged, got married, and fought the Final Battle. They just don't realize that there's no meat on those bones and that they didn't actually bother to write much about these events or the interesting stuff that should have come surrounding them.

[jhlipton]

Quote

Kitsis: You can’t really control ratings. Every year ratings go down and everyone reacts like it’s the first time. I think that though ratings are down, what’s interesting is the fan base continues to be up, so we’ll still trend and all those things.

The fan base, even if it is up, doesn't count for squat.  ABC wants money and Tweets don't give them any.  Ratings do.  So unless you can get a sweetheart deal (like Sony dumping money to save Timeless), ratings do matter, and you da,n well should try to control ratings.

On 5/16/2017 at 10:16 PM, ParadoxLost said:

I've seen this enough times on enough shows that I think it might be a deliberate tactic to try to wean the casual audience off a departing character.  

It becomes a feed-back though.  When a show dumps off a character because the actress might be leaving, it gives them more incentive to leave.  Of course, if it's a woman, most likely it will be said that she's a horror on the set...

[Camera One]

I hadn't read this interview in detail until now, which makes me even more angry.

Quote

DEADLINE: Tell me the ending of the finale – when did all that start taking shape? A year ago did you know where you were going?

HOROWITZ: I would say it’s been many years, in the sense of we’ve had this idea of how we wanted to end these stories. The specificity of how it would happen started to take shape last summer as we started to plan Season 6, and Eddie and I have had a pretty strong vision of what that final act for Season 6 would be.

So their "planning" for this Season 6 and "the final act" didn't just begin in January as was assumed.   It began last freak'in summer.  And see, they've known their ending for YEARS.  Aren't they amazing?  So much foresight.   They are so full of it.

Edited May 23, 2017 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

For a while, I thought the writers were keeping the character development stagnant in order to save the big moments for the final season. Regina apologizing to Snow, Emma letting down her walls, Rumple either dying or redeeming himself, etc. But, even in the finale, the characters didn't change at all. They're all still ticking time bombs ready to revert at any moment. In fact, for most of them, S6 was a regression. Regina was back on her revenge kick. Emma broke up with Hook because WALLS. Rumple betrayed everyone multiple times.

The tweet from Brigette Hales about keeping Rumple the same was very telling. The writers don't want the characters to grow. They want to keep them where they are because it's more "fun" to write.

[Shanna Marie]

16 hours ago, Camera One said:

So their "planning" for this Season 6 and "the final act" didn't just begin in January as was assumed.   It began last freak'in summer.  And see, they've known their ending for YEARS.

That's rather embarrassing. So, they planned for years (or, at the very least, the better part of a year) that Emma would have visions of her death, and that was supposedly an absolute prophecy, but when the scene actually played out, she didn't die or even look like she died, but then the scene happened again, and that time she died/seemed dead, but the scene wasn't what she had the prophetic visions about. Meanwhile, there were the Savior shakes we never got explained, the reason given for her not using the shears to get rid of her Savior status was that Aladdin did so and Agrabah fell, except that Agrabah fell because Jasmine got tricked by Jafar and it had nothing to do with Aladdin being or not being a Savior, and there was nothing Emma had to do during all this time that only a Savior could have done, and if she had severed her status, it might even have kept the Black Fairy away because the Black Fairy was only doing all this because of Prophecy. The Black Fairy was the origin of all darkness, except she wasn't, she was just an ordinary woman who found a spell in a book that turned her into a fairy, and she turned into a dark fairy when she tried to cast the Dark Curse to take away all babies. She didn't seem to do much evil or have much effect on the world because she was banished, except the banishment allowed her to come into the world long enough to steal babies, which she did for slave labor (because we all know that infants are excellent at getting hard work done and need no care or attention). She kidnapped her son's baby for Reasons and sent him to kill Emma to power up the sword by killing a Savior so that she could enter this world ... so she could fight the Final Battle with the Savior? And again, there's all this prophecy about her fighting and killing the Savior, who's doomed to death since birth but nobody has bothered telling Emma or her parents until now, except the Black Fairy doesn't even really fight Emma unless her giving orders to Gideon counts? The Final Battle is a minute-long skirmish on Main Street that results in a moment of magic glow and is resolved a second later with a TLK.

And that's what they put all that planning into? What part of the ending did they have planned all along? The Last Supper imagery? The outcome for the various characters? Or did they have this Final Battle planned from the start?

[KingOfHearts]

According to A&E, Prince Charming dying in the Pilot was bleak. But Robin, Graham, and Neal was not. I especially have an issue with Robin... how is that "hopeful"? I think they realized it wasn't, and then tried to double back with the Wish!Robin. But that still left a bad taste in my mouth. It's funny that I don't feel bad for Robin because he's a compelling character but that his departure was so horribly handled.

Also in a show about "hope", Henry is off living alone in Seattle. Because reasons. I'm pretty sure the writers think of crazy scenarios like that, then thinly plan out how that could be possible later. I could bet you money they had no idea what Dark Swan was going to be like at the end of S4, or where they were going to go with the Evil Queen at the end of S5. I understand not having all the details mapped out, but you should have a general idea of where an arc will lead from the start. Otherwise you risk it not making any sense at a fundamental level.

It's like drawing vague blueprints, starting construction, then realizing it's flawed by design after it's already too late.

Edited May 25, 2017 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

4 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

According to A&E, Prince Charming dying in the Pilot was bleak.

Well, if they had gotten their way, Prince Charming would have died and this show would STILL have been oh-so-hopeful.

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But Robin, Graham, and Neal was not. I especially have an issue with Robin... how is that "hopeful"? I think they realized it wasn't, and then tried to double back with the Wish!Robin. But that still left a bad taste in my mouth. It's funny that I don't feel bad for Robin because he's a compelling character but that his departure was so horribly handled.

All those tweets Adam wrote about "don't judge until you see the whole story"... WTF.  WishRobin was NOT RealRobin.  He was completely irrelevant in the injustice of Robin dying at the hands of Hades.  Oh sorry, what am I saying.  The Evil Queen got her happy ending with WishRobin, and that's all that matters.

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Also in a show about "hope", Henry is off living alone in Seattle. Because reasons.

Well, SOMEONE has to have Walls™ now that Emma is gone.

[KingOfHearts]

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Well, SOMEONE has to have Walls™ now that Emma is gone.

... and they're making the viewers pay for it.

[Mitch]

19 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

According to A&E, Prince Charming dying in the Pilot was bleak. But Robin, Graham, and Neal was not. I especially have an issue with Robin... how is that "hopeful"? I think they realized it wasn't, and then tried to double back with the Wish!Robin. But that still left a bad taste in my mouth. It's funny that I don't feel bad for Robin because he's a compelling character but that his departure was so horribly handled.

Also in a show about "hope", Henry is off living alone in Seattle. Because reasons. I'm pretty sure the writers think of crazy scenarios like that, then thinly plan out how that could be possible later. I could bet you money they had no idea what Dark Swan was going to be like at the end of S4, or where they were going to go with the Evil Queen at the end of S5. I understand not having all the details mapped out, but you should have a general idea of where an arc will lead from the start. Otherwise you risk it not making any sense at a fundamental level.

It's like drawing vague blueprints, starting construction, then realizing it's flawed by design after it's already too late.

Not only did Robin die but his soul just obliterated..he never went to their goofy version of the afterlife...(don't get me started on their co mangling of both Catholic Theology and Greek myths..) So we have him obliterated...Auntie Em and whatsherfaceRumpswife in the lost souls river...(with no quick mention of..."Oh Hades is dead everyone was released ")the Scarecrow having his brain pulled out...(quivering he did so people turned into animals and..ickk puppets..(at least that had a point) I don't mind death, as battles have death.....but they are too w*ssy to do a death of a major character but they treat their secondary characters in an almost spiteful way. Killing Prince Charming would have been bold (and audacious) but they were too wimpy to ever let the main cast get it...so there were no stakes.

There are tons of ways they could have saved and course corrected their flawed design...especially on a show like this..they just think the stuff they pull out of their vortex is great.

[Shanna Marie]

3 hours ago, Mitch said:

Killing Prince Charming would have been bold (and audacious) but they were too wimpy to ever let the main cast get it...so there were no stakes.

The problem with the idea of killing Charming in the pilot is that I suspect it was like so many other things done in this show, purely for shock value without any real thought into how it affected the story. They were probably congratulating themselves on how bold and audacious that idea was without considering the tone it would have set and whether or not audiences would have stuck around. I doubt they had a story in mind about how that would have affected the characters going forward.

I would love to learn what their real thought processes and plans were behind some of these character additions and deaths. Neal was baked into the premise of the series, from the time we learned why Rumple wanted the curse cast, and I think most of us guessed that Rumple's son was Henry's father from the moment we learned he'd gone through a portal to the World Without Magic. So, why did they kill him? Was it for momentary shock, because he was too much of a leash on Rumple, because there was backlash against the character, because he was looking like the loser in the potential triangle, because the actor wanted out? It would have been easy enough to write him out without killing him. He just had to decide that he didn't want to deal with his father or with magic and stay in New York, with Henry visiting him for occasional weekends and holidays.

With Robin, it looks a lot like he was an impulsive addition to give Regina a love interest, and that was mishandled all along, from the "soulmate" nonsense to his indifference to Marian's fate to his death. We know Sean Maguire didn't ask to be released and was unhappy about being written out, so why did they feel the need to kill Robin? Were they already getting cost-cutting memos from the network and needing to cut the extraneous cast? Nothing about Robin was written well. It was a mistake to declare characters to be soulmates without them appearing on screen together first, so there was no idea whether the chemistry would work, and then they neglected to write any kind of relationship development because they just kept repeating "soulmates!" like that covered it all. The Marian thing was a mess that made Robin look terrible, and revealing that it was Zelena all along didn't help, since he was screwing around with Regina while he believed that his wife was under a curse, and he never cared that Regina was the one who imprisoned Marian in the first place. But once he was there, why did they need to ditch him, and why in such a horrible way? I guess they had to come up with that "really, dead for real" thing after bringing Hook back.

23 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's like drawing vague blueprints, starting construction, then realizing it's flawed by design after it's already too late.

That's pretty much the way they seem to operate -- wouldn't it be cool! And shocking! So they write it, but they don't bother to develop it or think through the ramifications, and then it's already too late. Basically, everything about Robin, from pixie dust to engagement ring on an arrow.

[Camera One]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I would love to learn what their real thought processes and plans were behind some of these character additions and deaths. Neal was baked into the premise of the series, from the time we learned why Rumple wanted the curse cast, and I think most of us guessed that Rumple's son was Henry's father from the moment we learned he'd gone through a portal to the World Without Magic. So, why did they kill him? Was it for momentary shock, because he was too much of a leash on Rumple, because there was backlash against the character, because he was looking like the loser in the potential triangle, because the actor wanted out? It would have been easy enough to write him out without killing him. He just had to decide that he didn't want to deal with his father or with magic and stay in New York, with Henry visiting him for occasional weekends and holidays.

They clearly thought he was boring to write for, even in 2B right after he got to Storybrooke!  It was probably a combination... Neal was stopping Rumple from being fun and his death would be a shocker that would prove how high the show's stakes were.  

They could easily have had Regina and Robin drift apart and then write him going back to Sherwood Forest.  It might even have been a better story for Regina.  So I wonder why they killed him in that way... probably as a shocker too.