The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[KingOfHearts]

2 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Is this for real??! Speechless...

It's as real as that titan heart disguised as a holy grail.

[maryle]

At this point the only petition I will willing to participate is a mercy petition demanding to end the show with some dignity.

And no! Gideon is not interesting or charismatic!

[Mathius]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

The writing has hit a new low this season--and I'm wondering how these same writers produced anything other than dreck in the previous 5 seasons. Granted--it's the same writing problems compounded 1000-fold this year, but it still doesn't compute. 

Not all the writers currently on the team were here from the beginning, though.  Just A&E, Jane, David Goodman and Andrew Chambliss.

[Free]

1 hour ago, KingOfHearts said:

It seems to me that the writers are just phoning it in now. They're no longer interested in what they're writing. I've been rewatching the earlier seasons, and even though sometimes their work is terrible, you'll notice more passion put into it. (Yes, even in 4B.) They were never sold on LoUS, Aladdin, or anything else they've been doing in 6A, and thus it's not nearly as complete.

Did someone somewhere mention they had a long-term plan for 5 seasons, or am I just making that up?

I'm not sure about this show, I know Lost had one.  I know this show had an outline and certain things they wanted to do, but other than that, they've mostly been winging it.  This season alone feels aimless.

[KAOS Agent]

I think they said in early interviews when talking about how they pitched the show that they had to demonstrate that they had a plan for beyond the initial S1 story. If I remember correctly, they said they had a rough map for five seasons of the show. Obviously, that map went out the window (Frozen wasn't a thing back when they pitched Once), but they did have some sort of something to present to the network at the beginning.

[Camera One]

I was reading an article for Buffy's anniversary that included an interview with Jane Espenson.  Her comments might have relevance on "Once".

And while she penned plenty of Ms. Summers’ lines, “Buffy was the hardest, because she was the most nuanced,” Espenson tells TVLine. “It was always fun writing the more peripheral characters. I love Anya, Jonathan, Andrew, et cetera, because they can have more focused points of view. But a more central character like Spike is perfect, because he’s nuanced, but he still has strong outlier opinions — because, evil.”

This is probably why they find it so hard to write for someone like Emma, or even Snow and Charming.  I can imagine to her the equivalent of Anya, Jonathan and Andrew would be characters like Zelena and Hook... characters who provide zingers.  And the provider of "outlier opinions" would of course be Regina and Rumple.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

9 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

It's as real as that titan heart disguised as a holy grail.

Lol. Btw, this is not a joke to those who are wondering. This was a legit twitter explanation by JE as to why there was a Holy Grail in Gold's shop.

[AnotherCastle]

6 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Lol. Btw, this is not a joke to those who are wondering. This was a legit twitter explanation by JE as to why there was a Holy Grail in Gold's shop.

Skin Deep Script:

JE on Twitter:

http://68.media.tumblr.com/0fd9f96047790476dd4871be2bf46fd5/tumblr_nxo0hbBGxJ1rppzkpo1_1280.png

http://68.media.tumblr.com/a116ce668cf35c843f590a529e59324c/tumblr_nxo0hbBGxJ1rppzkpo3_1280.png

http://68.media.tumblr.com/978fb333efe21d6fcd152df665136285/tumblr_nxo0hbBGxJ1rppzkpo2_1280.png

Edited March 21, 2017 by AnotherCastle

[Mari]

Side note and pet peeve--if a cup used by a poor traveling rabbi managed to survive for 2000 years, why on earth would it be ornate and bejeweled?

[KingOfHearts]

I still love how the scripts are always stilted, just like Isaac's writing in the storybook. 

[Rumsy4]

29 minutes ago, AnotherCastle said:

Skin Deep Script:

JE on Twitter:

http://68.media.tumblr.com/0fd9f96047790476dd4871be2bf46fd5/tumblr_nxo0hbBGxJ1rppzkpo1_1280.png

http://68.media.tumblr.com/a116ce668cf35c843f590a529e59324c/tumblr_nxo0hbBGxJ1rppzkpo3_1280.png

http://68.media.tumblr.com/978fb333efe21d6fcd152df665136285/tumblr_nxo0hbBGxJ1rppzkpo2_1280.png

Thanks. Those tweets deserved to be preserved for posterity. :-)

[Souris]

7 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

Lol. Btw, this is not a joke to those who are wondering. This was a legit twitter explanation by JE as to why there was a Holy Grail in Gold's shop.

Dear God.

1 hour ago, Mari said:

Side note and pet peeve--if a cup used by a poor traveling rabbi managed to survive for 2000 years, why on earth would it be ornate and bejeweled?

Indeed. The appearance of the Holy Grail is a very important point in "Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade." Which I'm sure A&E have seen.

[Camera One]

New contradictory comments from Adam.  Enjoy.

Exhibit A:

Captainswanclintasha‏ @monica_troie  
 @AdamHorowitzLA @CaptainSwan861 So you KNOW what will happen after May?

Adam Horowitz‏  @AdamHorowitzLA
@monica_troie @CaptainSwan861 I can't see the future.  That's rumple

------------

Exhibit B:

Adam Horowitz‏  @AdamHorowitzLA
@CaptainSwan861 as for the future of the show and the cast -- I'm not ready to comment on any of that.  But rest assured, I'd like to!

----------

Exhibit C:

Adam Horowitz @AdamHorowitzLA
@CaptainSwan861 if I had something to announce, I would. Either way.

[Souris]

More Adam:

@CaptainSwan861 this is why you can't guess based on travel. We'll be shooting some of 617, 618,619,620,621,622 over the next 2-3 weeks.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Souris

[Camera One]

Hmm... interesting.  I guess any further discussion of that should probably go into the Spoiler thread.

[Curio]

6 minutes ago, Souris said:

More Adam:

@CaptainSwan861 this is why you can't guess based on travel. We'll be shooting some of 617, 618,619,620,621,622 over the next 2-3 weeks.

Does that sound to anybody like they're redoing things?

It's not uncommon to have to redo certain scenes or shoot B-roll they didn't have time to shoot earlier, but that seems like a lot of episodes to cram into 2-3 weeks. We know they completely reshot scenes from the 6x01 premiere for some reason and added in that whole bit about Emma encouraging Regina to use magic against Hyde which changed the tone of the episode, so it wouldn't surprise me if they're now banking on this being the final season which means they have to go back and fix certain scenes to fit with the more permanent ending.

[Camera One]

added in that whole bit about Emma encouraging Regina to use magic against Hyde which changed the tone of the episode

I totally don't remember that scene.  Though sometimes in Emma/Regina scenes, I'm so busy rolling my eyes I miss what's happening.

[Souris]

6 minutes ago, Curio said:

It's not uncommon to have to redo certain scenes or shoot B-roll they didn't have time to shoot earlier, but that seems like a lot of episodes to cram into 2-3 weeks. We know they completely reshot scenes from the 6x01 premiere for some reason and added in that whole bit about Emma encouraging Regina to use magic against Hyde which changed the tone of the episode, so it wouldn't surprise me if they're now banking on this being the final season which means they have to go back and fix certain scenes to fit with the more permanent ending.

A few scenes or eps, sure. But not that many. That's unusual. They could be redoing a storyline based on who did/didn't re-sign for S7. Or they could be thinking more it's the final season.

In any case, it makes you go hmmmmm.

[Curio]

10 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I totally don't remember that scene.  Though sometimes in Emma/Regina scenes, I'm so busy rolling my eyes I miss what's happening.

It was at the very beginning of the episode when the dirigible first crash landed and Hyde popped out of nowhere to gloat. Regina was all, "Wah, I'm not strong enough without my evil half," and Emma was like, "Evil didn't make you strong, now shut up and just use your light magic that you somehow still have." Paraphrased, of course. Apparently, that ended up being one of A&E's favorite scenes from the premiere even though it was a last-second addition. Based on the filming spoilers, the initial scene didn't have any confrontation with Hyde, it was just Emma and the gang watching the dirigible fly overhead while they stood in the middle of Main Street. No magic battle was included I don't think.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Curio

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, Curio said:

Apparently, that ended up being one of A&E's favorite scenes from the premiere even though it was a last-second addition. 

If I didn't know better, I'd think that was a joke.  

I'd thought it was when Snow said, "And then I realized, while, well, the Evil Queen was trying to kill me, that the only way I could stay alive was to never give up.  You taught me how to have faith.  You were the one who taught me that hope is a choice."

Edited March 21, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

35 minutes ago, Camera One said:

I'd thought it was when Snow said, "And then I realized, while, well, the Evil Queen was trying to kill me, that the only way I could stay alive was to never give up.  You taught me how to have faith.  You were the one who taught me that hope is a choice."

"And then I realized, while Killia...well, Captain Hook killed my father, that the only way I could help my mother was to never give up. You taught me how to have faith. You were the one who taught me that hope is a choice." The REC, ladies and gentlemen.

[Camera One]

At this point, I wouldn't be surprised if Snow thanks Hook for killing David's dad, "Or I would never have married damaged goods!"

[andromeda331]

On ‎3‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 0:04 AM, Camera One said:

I was reading an article for Buffy's anniversary that included an interview with Jane Espenson.  Her comments might have relevance on "Once".

And while she penned plenty of Ms. Summers’ lines, “Buffy was the hardest, because she was the most nuanced,” Espenson tells TVLine. “It was always fun writing the more peripheral characters. I love Anya, Jonathan, Andrew, et cetera, because they can have more focused points of view. But a more central character like Spike is perfect, because he’s nuanced, but he still has strong outlier opinions — because, evil.”

This is probably why they find it so hard to write for someone like Emma, or even Snow and Charming.  I can imagine to her the equivalent of Anya, Jonathan and Andrew would be characters like Zelena and Hook... characters who provide zingers.  And the provider of "outlier opinions" would of course be Regina and Rumple.

Well, when you cut out all of the meaty stuff yes Emma, Snow and Charming would be hard to write about. When you can't bring up anything that's happened to them that was caused by Regina there's not much left to write about. 

[tennisgurl]

With all this talk about how desperately this show wants to be Buffy, it made me think about this whole "Savior" business, and the retcon behind it, and where it fits into the whole "Chosen One" narrative.

There are, in general, two different Chosen One narratives most TV/Books/Movies tend to go with. First, you have your Buffy Chosen One. Those COs usually have special powers that make them special, and they fight evil for as long as they can, and when that CO dies, then someone else will take their place and do the same thing. Once in a generation there is born a slayer kind of thing. She's the CO because of her powers, not because of one specific thing she needs to do. Its a lifetime commitment.

On the other hand, there are the Harry Potter kind of Chosen Ones. These COs don't really have powers that make them unique (Harry has powers, but not anymore so then anyone else), but they have a specific THING that they are supposed to do. Harry has one specific thing he needs to do, and when he does that thing, his CO job is basically done, and he can go about his life, if he survives his CO job. When they die, no one else becomes the CO, unless some unrelated prophesy pops up for some other kid. He`s the CO because of a thing he needs to do, not because of his powers.

Granted, these two COs can be mixed together, but generally, these are the two Chosen One narratives you get. They don't often mix exactly. Now, obviously, Emma was originally the HP type of CO. She has One Job, to break the Dark Curse. Yeah she has powers and that makes her special, but lots of people have powers in this universe, even more so than she does, so her Savior specialness is mainly based around her job defeating the Dark Curse. Once she does that, she spends the next few seasons seeing the Savior as more of a leadership role in her community, more about being a magical member of a ruling family then any kind of CO. People came to her for help not exactly because she was a CO, but because she had powers and they trusted her. However, a few seasons ago, they decided they wanted to be Buffy, so they decided to change their CO narrative. Now, the Savior is a Buffy "once in a generation" thing, but its one that is ill defined and doesn't make a whole lot of sense. We don't really know how the Savior thing works, what makes a Savior a Savior, or how they come about. Gideon thinks if he kills a Savior, he becomes a new Savior. Pretty sure that's stupid, but then how are Saviors created? If Emma dies, will a new Savior be chosen? Does every universe have a Savior, or is Emma the Savior for everyone? Then where does Aladdin fit into all this? Is she just the Savior for his world, and Emma is the CO for the Enchanted Kingdom? Are there just millions of Saviors in this multiverse? So, what makes the Savior special? Buffy is special because she has super powers no one else has except for the vampires she fights. Harry is special because he is the only one who can defeat a bad guy because of a connection they have and a prophesy. What makes Emma or Aladdin special? Why is Savior power more important than Regina's or Zelenas magic? What MAKES a Savior a Savior?

Its a poorly written retcon that makes less sense the more you think about it.

[Camera One]

That is so well laid out.  For such supposed fans of sci-fi/fantasy, A&E has seemingly put zero thought into this at all.  

I did contact them for an answer, and they kindly obliged.

"Hello tennisgurl.  We hope you will keep watching because these are all the questions we want our audience to ask!  Right now, it's the middle of the story so Patience is the key (Patience is a character we'll be introducing in Season 9, but no one is supposed to know that yet!).  But here's a sneak peek.  Emma is a very special case of Savior.  She is basically Harry Summers.  Or Buffy Potter.   The main variable missing in your equation is "The Diamond In The Rough".  You might want to watch our Aladdin episode again because it is just full of clues.  Sometimes, diamonds are forever, and sometimes they are one of a kind.  See how that relates to Saviors?  WE ARE BOTH.  That's the theme of our show, and that pervades the Savior mythology.  Hope that helps.  If not, connecting the dots is fun!"

Edited March 22, 2017 by Camera One

[Curio]

It's sad that I have a better understanding of the A&E "voice" than I do with some of the main characters on the show. 

[Rumsy4]

5 hours ago, Camera One said:

She is basically Harry Summers.  Or Buffy Potter.

No no. Emma is Neo. In the first Matrix movie, the story was about Neo being the Chosen One and learning to do cool stuff, but by the third movie Agent Smith had taken over the Matrix. Who is Agent Smith, you ask?

Quote

The overall Regina screentime gap from 6A is still growing in 6B and it's set to expand massively in the next episode. Regina has the Evil Queen/Outlaw Queen story all on her own. 

Regina is Agent Smith--she has taken over the Matrix of OUAT (there are even actual Regina clones). The Show has truly become Once Upon a Regina. And the "savior" Emma is being sacrificed at her altar. A&E are the robotic creators of this Matrix and put all the characters through the same crappy plots over and over and over, and they never learn anything each cycle. By the third movie/final season, we the viewers are left wondering what the point of it all was (I do love the Matrix movies--heh).

Edited March 23, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Free]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

No no. Emma is Neo. In the first Matrix movie, the story was about Neo being the Chosen One and learning to do cool stuff, but by the third movie Agent Smith had taken over the Matrix. Who is Agent Smith, you ask?

Regina is Agent Smith--she has taken over the Matrix of OUAT (there are even actual Regina clones). The Show has truly become Once Upon a Regina. And the "savior" Emma is being sacrificed at her altar. A&E are the robotic creators of this Matrix and put all the characters through the same crappy plots over and over and over, and they never learn anything each cycle. By the third movie/final season, we the viewers are left wondering what the point of it all was (I do love the Matrix movie--heh).

It should be called Twice Upon a Regina since there's 2 of her.

[Camera One]

Adam is busy on Twitter but mostly boring questions reassuring fandoms and fielding multiple identical questions about whether Jennifer Morrison is filming or not.

This is the only actual reply which is related to plot or character.

Quote

B r i t t n y ‏ @OncerFan7  
 @AdamHorowitzLA does Henry switch Regina's house or does he fully live with Emma now

Adam Horowitz‏  @AdamHorowitzLA
@OncerFan7 switches

Edited March 23, 2017 by Camera One

[Camera One]

Andrew Chambliss‏   @AndrewChambliss  

Heading back to LA from a week on set just in time to watch tonight's all new #OnceUponATime #Rumplestiltskin #Beowulf Check it out!

I wonder why he was on set.  

I would say I was disappointed with the script this week but then again, he also wrote "The Bear and the Bow", "Ruby Slippers" and "Welcome To Storybrooke".

[Mathius]

Andrew Chambliss is the weakest writer (aside from A&E) who's been here from the beginning.  David Goodman is usually reliable, and Jane Espenson is pretty evenly hit-or-miss, but Chambliss has scripted some of the worst episodes of the series.  Beyond what you mentioned, he also wrote "Child of the Moon", "The New Neverland", "It's Not Easy Being Green", "Kansas", "Unforgiven", "Lily", "The Price", and from just this season "A Bitter Draught". He has written good episodes too, don't get me wrong, but he definitely seems to turn out duds more often than David and Jane do. 

Edited March 23, 2017 by Mathius

[sharky]

Andrew co-wrote 6x20 so it doesn't seem odd for him to have been in Vancouver. Same reason it's not odd for Adam to be there now. They do seem to have the writers on set for episodes they've written, which isn't all that unusual.

[Camera One]

It's a good idea for the Writer to be there, since the script might make no sense and the character motivations likely require major clarification.  Was he there when they staged the idiotic battle from "Ill-Boded Patterns"?  I know most of that was CGI, but they still needed to direct the extras.

[Free]

3 hours ago, Camera One said:

 

I wonder why he was on set.  

I would say I was disappointed with the script this week but then again, he also wrote "The Bear and the Bow", "Ruby Slippers" and "Welcome To Storybrooke".

Reshoots?  I think Adam was there before too and he mentioned those.

[Shanna Marie]

You know what this show and the writers are reminding me of? The X-Files. The situations aren't entirely alike -- the X-Files started as a really low-rated cult-type thing and grew into a mainstream pop culture phenomenon, and some of the crashing and burning also had something to do with both key members of the cast leaving, while Once started big and then slid in the ratings without ever really being a mainstream hit -- but there are some similarities. Both had a clever premise but a showrunner(s) who squandered the premise due to a combination of letting ongoing plot lines spiral out of control in a way that ruined whatever arc there ever was and straining at trying to be something it wasn't. And there was also a showrunner(s) who had a weird, not entirely healthy relationship with the audience and a bad combo of thin skin and huge ego.

The X-Files had a story arc that started to feel like they were throwing in everything but the kitchen sink, bringing up stuff without resolving things, and losing touch with continuity. Sound familiar? Then there were the shipping wars, with the resolution being something that satisfied no one. In that case, the factions were romance vs. non-romance rather than between couples, and they resolved it by having the couple get together offscreen, with a rather casual revelation that stuff had been happening offscreen. It was like they didn't want to upset either faction rather than committing to their own vision (in that case, Christ Carter started the series swearing Mulder and Scully would never get together romantically, but then there was a vast outcry for romance, and he apparently decided to split the difference). The writing staff there was apparently pretty dysfunctional, with other people on the staff, and not the showrunner, being the ones getting the critical acclaim and awards/nominations and jumping ship when they got deals to develop their own shows elsewhere. When Darin Morgan won an Emmy for a quirky episode, Carter started trying to duplicate that style in his own writing, and the show went down odd little meta rabbit holes. Ultimately, it was like he read his own press clippings and drove the show off a cliff.

It doesn't sound like things are that bad with Once (though the description of a silent writers room doesn't bode well), but we do have a show with promise that it's doing a worse and worse job of living up to, the writers seem to be trying to placate all shipper factions in a way that satisfies no one. I don't know what Chris Carter would have been like if Twitter had been around at the show's peak, but I imagine it would look a lot like Adam, getting thin-skinned and defensive, posting things and deleting them, and trying to pander to everyone. Then again, Adam in the era of Usenet might have been interesting. I don't get the sense that A&E feel threatened by any other writers, but let's face it, no one is going to win an Emmy for writing this show. I get more of a sense of them maybe feeling threatened by/jealous of the popularity of some of their actors. Once, at least, hasn't gone full-on meta in the way The X-Files did, to the point of being a parody of itself, but it has been repetitive enough to be an unintentional parody of itself. I guess mostly the comparison I keep making is to a show that started well and then completely fell apart, to the point it was almost unrecognizable, and largely because of the ego of the showrunner(s). Let's just hope the Once finale is better.

[Souris]

Amen to the X-Files similarities! I truly shudder to think what Chris Carter would have been like on Twitter.

I also expect S7 of Once to be exactly like the failed last season of The X-Files, with Jen (David Duchovny) leaving and Colin (Gillian Anderson) staying, while the show tries to continue with a focus on the characters New Guy, Little Girl and Tiger Lily (Doggett and Reyes).

The three shows I've been involved in the fandoms of -- The X-Files, Alias and Once -- all started so well and then went down in flames. There will not be another fandom in my life. Three strikes and I am out!

[Shanna Marie]

I actually kind of liked Doggett and Reyes, and the Cary Elwes character as their boss. I just would have preferred it if they'd had their own show that they weren't calling "The X-Files," since it wasn't, really. I'm afraid it may or may not be the same sort of thing with the hypothetical season 7, except it doesn't seem to involve actors I have a pre-existing fondness for that will carry me through. And that last season was a little more Monster of the Week rather than continuing to try to deal with the increasingly non-sensical arc. I'm not sure Once is really cut out for a more episodic storytelling.

6 minutes ago, Souris said:

The three shows I've been involved in the fandoms of -- The X-Files, Alias and Once -- all started so well and then went down in flames. There will not be another fandom in my life. Three strikes and I am out!

I've had way more than that, but I'm getting to the point where I find it hard to imagine I'd get involved in much else now. It's harder to get me really hooked and emotionally involved in a TV series, to a level that makes me want to analyze it. This is the only one I'm that invested in at the moment. There's some discussion of Game of Thrones when it's on, but it's more analytical than being emotionally involved. I'm dropping shows left and right. Which may end up being a good thing for me because I need to free up the time, and fixing other people's writing takes up way too much headspace.

[Camera One]

I find that a show I enjoy analyzing comes along once in a decade, and "Once" was it for the 2010's.  For a lot of other shows I've watched lately (even well-received shows, like "A Series of Unfortunate Events"), people post once after the episode airs, and that's it.  Poorly received mythology heavy shows like "Emerald City" or "Timeless"... their message boards became ghost towns a week after their final episodes.  There's a hiatus in "Gotham" and there's nary a post, much less a conversation. 

So it's funny how this show, with its questionable writing, can generate so much deep discussion and analysis.  Does bad writing and inconsistency actually spawn more points of discussion?

Edited March 25, 2017 by Camera One

[oncebluethrone]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

I find that a show I enjoy analyzing comes along once in a decade, and "Once" was it for the 2010's.  For a lot of other shows I've watched lately (even well-received shows, like "A Series of Unfortunate Events"), people post once after the episode airs, and that's it.  Poorly received mythology heavy shows like "Emerald City" or "Timeless"... their message boards became ghost towns a week after their final episodes.  There's a hiatus in "Gotham" and there's nary a post, much less a conversation. 

So it's funny how this show, with its questionable writing, can generate so much deep discussion and analysis.  Does bad writing and inconsistency actually spawn more points of discussion?

I think it might since it gives fans negative things to talk about, which adds a whole new level to the show (negativity can be good in some situations).  For the negative things, you can analyze the situation, try to figure out why the writers went in this direction, and you can figure out how it could have been better.  

[Rumsy4]

Jane Austen is my lifetime obsession. I have been part of a dedicated set of fanatics for years, but even there, participation goes up whenever there's a new adaptation or a group read.

Apart from that, I have been involved in "current" fandoms to ONCE level only with LOST and Harry Potter. Other books and movies/shows, I participate in forum discussions here and there, but not to this degree. For example, I was trawling message boards when watching Westworld, but I won't go back until the next season starts, even though it's a much superior show to ONCE. But it's also not as vast in its mythology.

I do agree that analysis of the ONCE's flaws is almost more engaging than its merits these days. The problem is, negative analysis has become the only way OUAT is watchable. There's very little to praise or predict in terms of themes or plots. OUAT benefits from having a fanbase (fantasy/sci-fi nerds) that naturally tends to be obsessive, but that's also its downfall, because it ultimately doesn't reward those fans. It almost seems to enjoy punishing them (us). 

Edited March 25, 2017 by Rumsy4

[Free]

7 hours ago, Camera One said:

I find that a show I enjoy analyzing comes along once in a decade, and "Once" was it for the 2010's.  For a lot of other shows I've watched lately (even well-received shows, like "A Series of Unfortunate Events"), people post once after the episode airs, and that's it.  Poorly received mythology heavy shows like "Emerald City" or "Timeless"... their message boards became ghost towns a week after their final episodes.  There's a hiatus in "Gotham" and there's nary a post, much less a conversation. 

So it's funny how this show, with its questionable writing, can generate so much deep discussion and analysis.  Does bad writing and inconsistency actually spawn more points of discussion?

I also think that Previously TV is a place that many of the OuaT fans go to discuss the show.

Shows like Emerald City and Timeless have actually done worse than this one and ASOUE is a Netflix show and those usually don't spark long discussions unless you're as big as say Stranger Things or something like that.  As for Gotham, as you said, it's had a long hiatus and there's not much to talk about until it returns.

This season also has had contract negotiations, how the show may or may not end, a possible reboot, etc.  The bts to OuaT is actually a lot more interesting than the show itself.

[daxx]

3 hours ago, Free said:

The bts to OuaT is actually a lot more interesting than the show itself

I think the way they film so many pivotal events for fans to take pictures of and flail and speculate on has a lot to do with it. Without BTS the forum gets quiet and boring.

[Free]

28 minutes ago, daxx said:

I think the way they film so many pivotal events for fans to take pictures of and flail and speculate on has a lot to do with it. Without BTS the forum gets quiet and boring.

Exactly, it's just more interesting than the show itself.

[Rumsy4]

This is the only Show for which I follow spoilers. Normally, I'm a spoilerphobe. It's really bizarre, but half my interest in the Show is becasue I follow spoilers. 

[Camera One]

I normally resist the powers of The Seer, and I still find there's enough to discuss and speculate on.  As the wise Belle once said, "The future isn't always what it seems."  And as the sage Rumple said, "Seeing the inevitable... can be a terrible price."  I'll end with these immortal words of Nimue, "I don't want this moment to get lost in an endless sea of time."

[Souris]

6 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

This is the only Show for which I follow spoilers. Normally, I'm a spoilerphobe. It's really bizarre, but half my interest in the Show is becasue I follow spoilers. 

I only follow spoilers for shows where I don't trust the writers. Hence, Once. I feel I need to be prepared for their nonsense.

[Mathius]

31 minutes ago, Souris said:

I only follow spoilers for shows where I don't trust the writers. Hence, Once. I feel I need to be prepared for their nonsense.

Agreed.  You've got to steel yourself for the worst, that way it hurts less if it is the worst and is a pleasant surprise when it's not as bad as you feared.

[Shanna Marie]

Looking at the list of shows that have failed us by taking a turn for the worse made me start thinking: What's the "Jump the Shark" moment for this series?

To some extent, that moment that the writers are so proud of when the Charming family went off to their first family dinner together ever and Regina sat there feeling sorry for herself was a big turning point. That was when the REC kicked in and, to some extent, Regina became a protagonist of the show, where we were supposed to see things from her perspective rather than from the perspective of her victims. But the show did a lot of good stuff after that point and picked up again at the end of that season and in the next arc.

Then there was the big battle against Zelena in the barn near the end of season 3 -- Regina's "Tinkerbell Jesus" moment in which she floated into the air, shooting light magic out of her ass, and resolved the entire arc by taking off Zelena's necklace. That moment sums up so much of what's been wrong with the show -- it was a resolution that pretty much came out of nowhere, rendering everything else that had happened in the arc more or less pointless; it was rather anticlimactic (gee, all it took to defeat her was taking off the necklace?); it ignored what setup there was, like all the time spent on Emma training to use her magic and practicing it, all the drama of the Kiss Curse; it was a total whitewashing and Mary Sue-ing of Regina, with her being able to use the most powerful light magic, in spite of having no heart and in spite of having a vault full of hearts of her enemies that she hadn't given back, and somehow her light magic was more powerful than Zelena in spite of the fact that she was shown to be weaker at magic than Zelena; it was supremely cheesy; and there was some social media drama surrounding it when the clip leaked early, fans were outraged about how dumb it was, and were reassured by Adam that it wasn't a finished clip, but it turned out to be exactly what was in the episode. The season 3 finale was wonderful, but otherwise you could probably say the series has been on a downhill trajectory since then.

Or there's Henry's big "believe in magic" speech at the end of season 5, which was dumb and embarrassing, and the show really has never recovered.

But then, to some extent, it's not so much when the show jumped the shark, but more a case of a natural shark jump being delayed. They wanted to make a series about the Evil Queen getting her happy ending, and then either got feedback in pitching or got guidance from Lindelhof that maybe they needed a different focus. They wanted to kill Prince Charming in the pilot, but the network wouldn't let them. If they'd been allowed to make the show they wanted, it would have been dead on arrival. In a sense, a lot of the problems seem to come from them having been forced to make a different show, but still trying to make that original show, so they spent the first season forced to make Regina a villain, then when they were off the leash they went back to that original concept, never mind what they'd actually shown, and we also got the Snow White "I was such a brat" stuff. I wonder if that was the original idea, that Regina was "misunderstood" rather than actually being evil and Snow was really a brat. We keep slipping into the alternate dimension of that other show they wanted to make, and it's disconcerting because we've been watching the show that came on in this timeline.

[Camera One]

46 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Or there's Henry's big "believe in magic" speech at the end of season 5, which was dumb and embarrassing, and the show really has never recovered.

For me, I think that event (actually, even worse was "The Splitting of Regina and The Evil Queen") might have been the "jumping the shark" moment if only because after that, the quality has consistently sunk to new lows, with even more egregious repetition, nonsense or retconning than ever before.  There wasn't one quality subplot this season, none of the major storylines had a believable premise, and any bright lights were mere blips/anomalies.  For me personally, "Ill-Boded Patterns" brought the show to a completely new depth in how it destroyed one of the basic relationships of the show (Rumple/Baelfire).  I'm worried if this is the new low", or if it will sink even lower (at this point, I can't imagine how).

Edited March 26, 2017 by Camera One

[Free]

45 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Looking at the list of shows that have failed us by taking a turn for the worse made me start thinking: What's the "Jump the Shark" moment for this series?

It's hard to pinpoint, because OuaT was more of a slow derailment, it's had problems that's been evident since at least S2, but it spiraled downwards later on.

For me it's S2-4: problematic but occasionally a guilty pleasure, S5: a complete trainwreck, and this season: an unwatchable, boring mess.

Edited March 26, 2017 by Free