The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[BoPeeps]

Ultimately this is A&E's show, vision, dream, rationalization blah blah blah. We have all chosen to watch for different reasons. Escapism is certainly high up there, I would hope. The basic premise of twisted fairy tales (though in their original form they were quite twisted already!), set in a somewhat modern world is addictive because our modern world is often anything but magical , romantic, fanciful.

 

A&E live in the world of lunatic TV production/writing and Adam ,at least, chooses to personally hang out on intensely insane social media sites rife with nasty crap. ugly egos, anonymous classlessness, graceless chaos, etc etc. I have totally given up on them actually making a ton of sense about any of the plotlines and just enjoy the escape from blood guts gore guns violence cops druglords vampires zombies and moronic reality shows .that highlight the absolute asshole WORST of the human character and condition.

 

Because of the clever characterizations, some of the appealing actors and the ridiculous, witty joy (mostly, Robin Hood is still a total moron)  I get out of watching them screw around with the stories and legends of my childhood, etc, I hang around. I have come to expect nothing really deep, lasting or true to anything, but when it happens now and then, it is rewarding. Because it is not cable, we get network numbskullery alllll the time and that is just the way it is. It is their story to tell, however weirdly, incompletely they choose to tell it. We can join or not. I've let go of the lack of control over what  I could not change several seasons ago!  I can't drum up the TV viewer outrage of my youth anymore. Not enough energy left over after dealing with the insanity that is the reality of this world I guess!

 

I suspect A&E are high on the ADHD list of TV writers and creators. They write and live within the *moment of convenience* and sometimes, even with an end plan in place there are a hundred ways of getting there. Some of which coincidentally "fit" along the way. Others are totally WTF screw-ups, but they are too busy dealing with network stresses, deadlines, media demands, too much story to tell  and the unholy input of twitterites who for some reason compel them to make just plainly stupid comments.

 

Adding Disney into the equation is a double-edged sword. Disney, even though they habitually and evilly tried/try to manipulate mine and everyone else's childhood (HA)is a giant reason that ONCE has not fallen into the gore-blood-guts and mental illness of reality TV....but their presence/marketing/manipulation annoys the hell out of me quite often and when not raging against that mammoth machine for the creative interference, I assume their thumb print can be found on both Adam and Eddy's skulls and a certain amount of slack can be given.

 

End of the day...as long as I have some dastardly evil characters to cheer on from my dark sided brain; lusciously steamy drop dead gorgeous pirates to tweak a decidedly different part of my nature (tsssss); fiercely strong women taking no shit from dudes (grin)  and way cool costumes with trolls and witches and dragons, oh my!...I will be there watching, laughing, eye rolling and ultimately, escaping with them.

[Camera One]

What was the hardest Ouat episode to write? And Why? :))

 

So "Witch Hunt" was more difficult to write than "Bleeding Through" (how can we put all the blame for all of Cora (and Regina)'s miseries at Eva (and Snow)'s feet?) or "The Evil Queen" (how can we make Snow look bad after Regina kills a village?).  

[KAOS Agent]

It sounded more like she was basing the difficulty on the time constraints and major changes that occurred while writing than about which story was most difficult to write. It was a nice dodge in terms of answering the question based on storyline.  

[Faemonic]

 If redeeming Regina was anywhere near the top of their priority list, they would take more care with her characterization.  I think Regina gets sacrificed for the sake of plot nearly as much as every other character.

 

Regina planning to execute Marion wasn't necessary.  But they needed Emma to meet Marian and have a reason to rescue her.  Evil Queen captured Emma so she had to capture Marian and someone dying solves the changing the past dilemma.   They even doubled down on Emma's motivation by making protecting Snow White the reason Marian was going to be executed.  That they didn't follow up with this means that they didn't care enough about Regina to avoid being lazy in the writing but didn't want Regina to pay for it. 

That's a good point, but at the same time I can see the plot even kind of suffering in order to bring Regina to the fore. That Regina could do True Love's Kiss without a heart and be the most powerful Light Magic user ever was a twist for its own sake but didn't thematically gel and I just feel so sorry for Emma basically being written like a combination of Scrappy Doo (failing to face down Zelena...twice... "Lemme at 'er! Lemme at 'er!") and Princess Peach ("Your princess/Savior is in another castle/realm!") Our hero, everybody.

They did the same thing with Hook as Regina/Marian.  Hook does stupid/bad things and lies to Emma about it to set up the plot and now it will never come up again.because they don't want the character to pay for setting up plot. 

 

I'd argue that they like Hook more than Regina simply because they gave him the voicemail apology that Emma will never hear that will cut off eternal viewer debate and discussion of that period of time.

That's also interesting. But I don't know. I think Hook might have just the right amount of love from the writers that he's utilized in what's probably the most believable way, not so much that he's taken over the show, he's still only the supporting character of Emma and Rumple...but not so little that I miss him like I miss Season 1B Mary Margaret. Or Ruby.

 

Or maybe whoever's in charge of writing Hook is just better at it. Slightly, I mean, given the main thesis that the characters can't suffer or reap consequences for setting up plot. Which brings me to...

I think I've figured out what the writing on this show reminds me of. A few years ago, I was invited to be one of the instructors for a writing workshop being held at a big anime convention.

 

There was the story with the obvious Victim Sue character in which we saw a sad incident involving this character from the viewpoint of another person. Then we had a scene in which Victim Sue thought about this incident while listening to a sad song on the radio. Then the person who had seen the incident in the first place thought about it and wondered how Victim Sue was doing. Then the other person in the scene with Victim Sue told someone else about the incident. By the time we were done, we knew what absolutely everyone in the story thought about this one incident, while nothing else had happened. That was so much like what happened with Regina in this latest episode, where we had Marian talking about how she saw Regina and Robin's relationship, Regina and Robin talking about their relationship multiple times, Regina and Rumple talking about her relationship, what she thought about what was happening and her chances for a happy ending, and then in the end, Emma came to talk to Regina about what happened with Robin. And that's after we'd already heard what Snow and Henry had to say about it. Granny and Grumpy haven't yet sounded off about it, but I'm sure that's coming in the spring.

 

And there was the story that was so plot-driven that the characters and their emotions didn't make sense. The story kicked off with someone exploding violently with rage over some minor thing and starting a huge fight. I asked the writer if this was meant to show us something about this character because the reaction was so extreme that it didn't make any sense. He said no, that he just needed a fight to take place there for the story to work. Later, something really big happened and the characters didn't react at all. They just kept doing what they were doing. I asked about that, why the characters weren't affected, and he said it didn't really matter to the story because they were going to just do the same thing anyway, and he needed them to do that same thing. It was like this guy just didn't understand how emotions worked and how they affected people. The characters existed only to make things happen in the plot.

 

He might have been somewhere on the Asperger's end of the spectrum.

 

I've sometimes wondered that about these writers because they're so tone deaf about emotions, but I think if that were the case, then the rules of how magic worked would be excruciatingly detailed and rather rigid and the timeline would work down to the minute.

 

It does boggle the mind that they're running a TV series with writing skills out of the beginner session of an anime convention writers workshop.

I think if you're good enough and very very very lucky, then it happens. I mean, we're still watching, right? Then they must have kept up with some industry standard. Some very promising shows that are far better-written get canceled, too, so, skill only gets you so far and sometimes not even. That's the reality of the industry and network politics...probably, I don't work there.

 

What you describe about Victim Sue, for example, reminds me of Frances Hodgeson Burnett's "Little Lord Fauntleroy." Thing happens. Narrator describes it. Narrator shows other characters talking about it in the way that was described. Granted, it isn't the Mood Piece that amateur writers have such an instinctive attraction for, there are other things that happen to mercifully break out of the repetitive dwelling-on that one event, but the juciest conflict (between Cedric's lowborn mother and Cedric's deceased father's father who was a nobleman with a thawing heart) wasn't played up at all--because, I inferred, Burnett didn't want to upset her darling main character Ceddie. By the way? This book is a classic. As in, people can bear to pass this awfulness down generations. I couldn't bear it for more than ten minutes at a time, and reading Mary Sue fanfiction is a guilty pleasure of mine.

 

So, if there is an audience for an aspect, and it's a large audience, and they're loud, and they represent what can be converted to covering the production costs of the next season and everybody's salaries...and it remains up to an industry standard, then...well, I don't want to be too harsh and say, "There goes all creative integrity." More like, "Writers (and notes from executives) can swing that way."

 

Being able to align a developed character with a planned plot is a challenge that I've personally had, and I'm just one person, and I've known that this was a weakness of mine for years, so I can't imagine how that can come out smoothly as a collaboration. I can imagine sacrificing one for the other just to get something done and out there, though, especially on a deadline. And especially if many of these writers have never attended a workshop at an anime convention, or read a book on their craft, whereby this "rift" in the plot-character continuum would have been brought into their awareness.

 

But it is a fundamental thing, it shows across the board, so I can only guess that, with the success that these writers have seen, many of them might not feel the need to go back down to the level of "how" and rearrange how they think and work; instead keep an ear out for "what", that is if the story developments aren't just kept within the circle?

 

Ideally, though, yeah, there would be immensely detailed world-building that we might not see all of but would be able to get a feel for from the consistency of what is shown, in which a character-driven plot progresses at a good pace (or a plot that brings out the...well, the character...of the characters, in a way that's consistent with individual character development and relationship dynamics.) Or some process or person that would have it all gel together, everyone's strengths compensating for one another's weaknesses, so that viewers won't catch quite as much frustrated potential.

[BoPeeps]

TV script writing is not *authoring*. T.V. writers are much more controlled, under a completely different set of rules and for the most part present someone else's vision. Because the writing also  affected by a large and important  input from fans, those fans tastes and concerns are paramount to what shows up on the screen, as well as complying with network and Mother Company (or Daddy Walt Co.) dictates which in turn are dictated by the dollar flow which is ratings/ad controlled

 

In essence, bills get paid with what scriptwriters can bring in. It is bank account filling, not necessarily soul fulfilling. So they are not so devoted to making specific characters and their actions deeply consistent. They can write their Great American (or fill in the blank country) Novel to feed the soul.

 

Because of the visual domination of T.V.it isn't just the written word that matters. It's how the eye is pampered and pleased. And these days, with the CGI cravings and the attention spans of gnats for a hunk of the viewing audience that want more action and less depth, the speedy, neat little sub plots fitting into the breaks from revenue generating commercials, network TV is often doomed to mediocrity.

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

In essence, bills get paid with what scriptwriters can bring in. It is bank account filling, not necessarily soul fulfilling. So they are not so devoted to making specific characters and their actions deeply consistent. They can write their Great American (or fill in the blank country) Novel to feed the soul.

Because of the visual domination of T.V.it isn't just the written word that matters. It's how the eye is pampered and pleased. And these days, with the CGI cravings and the attention spans of gnats for a hunk of the viewing audience that want more action and less depth, the speedy, neat little sub plots fitting into the breaks from revenue generating commercials, network TV is often doomed to mediocrity.

 

You're right. At the end of the day, it's viewership and what the viewers want that matters. I think the show is more disappointing to some because it has a high fantasy setting akin to Narnia, LoTR and classic Disney films. That kind of genre isn't present in quality form on television very often. There's so many high profile characters and franchises on the show like Snow White, The Wicked Witch, and Elsa that we come to expect more from it. It's probably not so much a problem for casual viewers, but for in-depth fantasy buffs like me it's like nails on a chalkboard sometimes. Sometimes it seems more like a movie or miniseries than a prime time drama.

Edited December 21, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

But I don't know. I think Hook might have just the right amount of love from the writers that he's utilized in what's probably the most believable way, not so much that he's taken over the show, he's still only the supporting character of Emma and Rumple...but not so little that I miss him like I miss Season 1B Mary Margaret. Or Ruby.

 

I think it is pretty clear that the writers do enjoy writing for Hook.  They like writing the quips, and naturally, they find it easier to write conflict for someone with insecurities who is struggling with doing the right thing.  That's probably why the conflicts they write for Hook are more believable and meaty than stuff they give to the "heroes".  Especially well-adjusted ones like Charming.  

 

As usual, the frustrating thing is that they CAN do it if they wanted.  They managed to make Elsa, who is in essence a good person, interesting, with flaws (eg. not listening to Kristoff and not destroying the urn right away).  But they arguably sort of ruined that later when they had Elsa run off with Anna's necklace even though they could have saved everyone in town.  The longer they have a character, the more likely they will do damage to it.  I mean, look at Snow and Henry.  They have been run over so many times and they keep on doing it AND finding ways to make it worse!

Edited December 21, 2014 by Camera One

[Joanh23]

I think they decided to redeem Regina after they saw Lana's performance and after they saw the way the fans reacted to her.  Emma has been my favorite character from the start so I don't really get it, but I do think Regina is probably the most popular character in the wider fandom.  Podcasts I listen to and different reviews I read, most of them absolutely love Regina's storyline and are into her redemption and romance with Robin 150%.  

 

I remember reading an A&E interview after A Land Without Magic aired and A&E were saying that once Regina agreed to help Emma save Henry that meant she knew she was helping Emma break the curse - I've watched that episode several times and I still don't see it - my reading of it is that yes Regina wanted to save Henry, but she was shocked when Emma broke the curse.  

[Serena]

I think that was probably the first time A&E said a totally WTF, whitewashing thing about Regina that had no connection to what actually happened. We should have known then.

 

I don't know how anyone can argue that Regina knew that curse was going to be broken, when she literally looked shocked and went "no!" when it happened. 

Edited December 21, 2014 by Serena

[Faemonic]

You're right. At the end of the day, it's viewership and what the viewers want that matters. I think the show is more disappointing to some because it has a high fantasy setting akin to Narnia, LoTR and classic Disney films. That kind of genre isn't present in quality form on television very often. There's so many high profile characters and franchises on the show like Snow White, The Wicked Witch, and Elsa that we come to expect more from it.

 

It's probably not so much a problem for casual viewers, but for in-depth fantasy buffs like me it's like nails on a chalkboard sometimes. Sometimes it seems more like a movie or miniseries than a prime time drama.

(On a tangent...when is Game of Thrones coming back? I guess that's easier to world-build, and keep characters consistent, because it's based on a book. Sure, they changed stuff up that's disappointing to fans of the book series, but just as an onscreen thing it is solid.)

 

I think it is pretty clear that the writers do enjoy writing for Hook.  They like writing the quips, and naturally, they find it easier to write conflict for someone with insecurities who is struggling with doing the right thing.

Ah, but do they like him as a character, or do they like him as a person? I think the latter can get in the way of the former. I mean, when the Captain gets Floor'd, he kind of deserves it (much as I love him, he does...and I kind of love him more for that) but a lot of Woegina becomes crocodile tears after a while. But maybe this is meandering over to something that belongs in the Villains thread, because Your Mileage May Vary on this of course.

 

 

Hat tip to Souris on the Fandom and Viewer issues page for the link to Jane Espenson's tweet about how Swan Queen shippers have it the hardest.

 

Was it because of what Happy's actor said about SQ fans being the rudest of all, last Christmas? Or is it because Swan Queen as a romantic pairing is never going to happen but the creative team keeps tagging it as if it's going to happen?

[Camera One]

(On a tangent...when is Game of Thrones coming back? I guess that's easier to world-build, and keep characters consistent, because it's based on a book. Sure, they changed stuff up that's disappointing to fans of the book series, but just as an onscreen thing it is solid.)

 

It is way easier to world-build when it's written there for you, the rules are there and even the major events are laid out.  Of course, it's still possible to mess that up, but there is a built-in constraint.  Game of Thrones can also use shock factor not to mention gratuitous violence and sex to further the story.  Death is an easy way out for creating conflict and new plots.

 

With the recent example of "Frozen", I wonder if A&E writes better under those constraints.  I mean, they still had difficulties keeping the characters consistent and forced Frozen analogies where they didn't fit, but the general Frozen/Snow Queen storyline they created was coherent and they did do a decent job of world-building Arendelle perhaps since we actually got to spend time in it.  While some might argue their efforts to include Easter Eggs might have gone too far (giving a cameo to almost every aspect of Frozen), I wished they did this more with the other fairy tales and Disney tales.  Imagine if there were so many mentions of people, places and things from Neverland or Oz.  

Edited December 22, 2014 by Camera One

[Faemonic]

With the recent example of "Frozen", I wonder if A&E writes better under those constraints.  (...) Imagine if there were so many mentions of people, places and things from Neverland or Oz.  

Season 3B was a gargantuan disappointment for that. I mean, we've been seeing flying monkeys in Henry's story book since season one. A&E pretty much said before then that Oz was "a matter of when, not if" so I figured that with two and a half years to catch up on the source material there would be a cornucopia of...nope! Dorothy appears for one episode, chats with the Witches of the Directions for ten minutes, douses Zelena, and then she's gone. Okay, silver shoes instead of ruby slippers, that's book canon. But...that's...it? Nobody dropped a house on Regina that Regina survives through being awesome? No...no wheelers, even? (Not source material as per Baum, but so Disney owned!)

Edited December 22, 2014 by Faemonic

[KingOfHearts]

 

Nobody dropped a house on Regina that Regina survives through being awesome? 

 

There was a theory going around that Cora was actually the Wicked Witch of the East (replaced by Regina), Eva was the Good Witch of the North (replaced by Emma), Glinda was the Good Witch of the South and Zelena was the Wicked Witch of the West. That's not to say EF was Oz, but either Oz could have been sectioned off into its own area or it all could have been symbolic. If only the writers were that clever.

 

I'm still upset that East and North were mere extras and not real characters. Such a waste. I wanted to see Glinda in Storybrooke too. 3B is right next to 2A when it comes to wasted potential. I'm not even taking the Missing Year into account.

 

(Memoryless Emma and Henry should have went to Oz. Just saying.)

Edited December 22, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

Replying in All-Seasons.

[Shanna Marie]

Ah, but do they like him as a character, or do they like him as a person? I think the latter can get in the way of the former. I mean, when the Captain gets Floor'd, he kind of deserves it (much as I love him, he does...and I kind of love him more for that) but a lot of Woegina becomes crocodile tears after a while.

I think that's exactly the case. The writers seem to enjoy Hook as a character to write for (and possibly Colin as an actor to write for, or maybe a combination). They give him interesting things to do, put him in difficult positions, give him uphill battles to fight. But they like Regina as a person, so they make things easy for her and give her things. It's like how the "mean" teachers in school are often the ones you learn from and who are better for you while the "nice" ones may make being in class fun, but you don't learn anything.

 

So when Hook gets a romance, it's a slow burn at a baby steps pace, where he has to constantly prove himself to win her over. There's a lot of writing and acting involved to make it happen. Regina gets a soulmate ordained by pixie dust, and poof, she has a relationship with no buildup, no really meaty scenes, no sense of "at last!" when something finally happens. It comes across as "we love you, so here's a gift" rather than "this is fun for us to create." Or in the redemption game, Hook got the big self awareness turnaround moments (which was more acting than writing, since there was no dialogue in the pivotal scene) and he gets to really revisit (literally) his past, where it gets played for humor, or he's forced to face up to his past errors, for drama and angst. Regina just gets forgiven offscreen, with no onscreen Come to Jesus moment. They just kind of wave their magic wand and make it all better.

 

I think there's a similar thing at work with Rumple. They like writing for Rumple rather than liking him as a person. For such a clearly loved character getting a Mary Sue treatment, Regina gets horrible writing or no writing. If you notice, almost everyone else gets the heavy lifting in their dealings with Regina. Regina gets to spew a little bile, but it's the people around her who are getting the actual interesting stuff to do. They're the ones getting faced with true dilemmas.

[jhlipton]

I feel a bit sorry for Lana.  She's a good actress, able to convey so much, and they've totally ruined her.  There's very little that she can do to undo her past crimes, and saying "I'm sorry" (while a start) is hardly enough to get her off the hook.  

 

So is anyone going to go see Into The Woods?

 

Probably Saturday.  My mom is a HUGE Sondheim fan (she's actually kind of petite, but you know what I mean) so I'll see it when I visit this weekend.  

 

Sondheim is about the structure and cadence -- there are few Sondheim songs that you can whistle, unlike Andrew Lloyd Webber, so I'm not too worried about the singing.  (If Phil Silvers and Jack Guilford can do it -- well before AutoTune -- Streep should have no problem.)

[Faemonic]

I was browsing the TV Tropes website and found a word for a whole lot of aspects that have bugged me about this show. Basically, it all comes down to Glurge. I could watch each new episode and play Glurge Bingo.

[KingOfHearts]

So, about Hook's unheard voice message. They didn't utilize it at all, like many things in this season. You could say maybe they were just trying to clue the audience in on how Hook was feeling, but it was a total waste of investment for the character. It tread waters his character had already gone through, and it didn't do anything for his relationship with Emma.

 

It's similar to Rumple's super long grave monologue in the premiere. He spent all that time promising to do better for his late son, then he proceeded to do the exact opposite. Having time for him to grieve was well and good, but the amount of screentime it took to convey something that wasn't even true really zapped the momentum away. I realize the show has misdirects and doesn't take advantage of every event, but to give characters deep emotional moments for something you have no intention of playing out is abuse to the character development.

Edited December 26, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

It's similar to Rumple's super long grave monologue in the premiere. He spent all that time promising to do better for his late son, then he proceeded to do the exact opposite.

 

I think that monologue was actually a really clumsy way to remind viewers what happened at the end of 3B.  He basically recounted that Belle thinks he has the real dagger, but he has the real one for revenge, etc.  It was also for the benefit of new viewers explaining how the dagger turned Rumple into a monster.  It was seriously dumb of him to bring it out when Belle was standing not far away.  Sort of like how Rumple kept bringing the Hat out in public and monologuing about it, or describing it to Hook, all season.  Very clunky way of exposition, mostly noticeable to the diehard fans.

Edited December 26, 2014 by Camera One

[Amerilla]

I really can't recall a show that spends so much dialog on exposition. I can't fathom how much time and space they'd have to move the story forward if they stripped away all the time characters spend telling you stuff you already know or repeating the same basic points over and over. Other shows - even shows with much more complex mythologies and longer runs -  manage to get by with the judicious use of a few 'previouslies" and a more organic approach to reminding the audience of past plot points.

 

I wonder where that comes from? Do they think their core audience skews so young that they have to be told fairly self-evident things 18 times in a row to grasp the point? Do they think that most of the audience isn't paying attention? Do they honestly think this is how "fairy-tale characters in the real world" would speak and act? Or is it just laziness/ bad writing/ lack of confidence in their own story?

[Camera One]

Yes, it is so much more noticeable and irritating when marathon-ing.  Even a scene which seemed effective the first time around... I'll go with Regina and Gold's conversation in the car, they basically recounted how Henry worked in his shop, and then Gold asks Regina why, and we had to hear all over again the whole rationale for Operation Mongoose.  Except we already heard Henry explain it to Belle earlier.  And we also get to hear Henry and Regina explain it to Emma at the end of the episode.  And Rumple explain it to Ursula.  This was all in a single episode.  And we previously got to hear Regina explain it to Robin, and Robin explain it to Will, and Henry and Regina explaining it to the audience in two separate episodes earlier in the season.  

 

Another example in the finale is Belle's final conversation with Rumple.  "Do you remember the first time you saved my life?" Belle asks.  Yes we remember, we just saw it 5 minutes ago!  We know what the gauntlet does!  It reduces the power of what should have been a moving scene.  

Edited December 26, 2014 by Camera One

[KAOS Agent]

Another example in the finale is Belle's final conversation with Rumple.  "Do you remember the first time you saved my life?" Belle asks.  Yes we remember, we just saw it 5 minutes ago!  We know what the gauntlet does!

 

What amuses me about this is that they spent a ridiculous amount of time with gauntlet exposition, but we still have no idea how/why Belle made the leap from finding the gauntlet in the shop to Rumpel = evil. How about instead of rehashing what we just saw onscreen five minutes ago, they give us a sentence or two of Belle explaining her thought process/actions after she found the gauntlet? It's so ridiculous that they feel the need to show us and tell us the same thing, but completely skip over everything that happened to lead up to the big climax at the clock tower. At least we'd have half an explanation about what happened if Belle had said something. Then again, that would take writers whose hubris doesn't get in the way of cogent storytelling.

Edited December 26, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[KingOfHearts]

 

I really can't recall a show that spends so much dialog on exposition. I can't fathom how much time and space they'd have to move the story forward if they stripped away all the time characters spend telling you stuff you already know or repeating the same basic points over and over.

Rumple having to explain "when the stars align" four times was incredibly dumb. That whole rule wasn't even necessary. If they needed a reason to wait to do it, just say he needed to get Belle on board with leaving first or something. Maybe there could have been a better contrivance to throw in, but the stars aligning was utterly cheese.

[YaddaYadda]

Is it possible that it might be serving a different plot point.  I mean how many times can we get some explanation about how something is going to work?  I know, still trying to give the writers more credit than they deserve.  And honestly, how many times do these stars all align together?  Is it every night?  Is it once a week?  Once a month?  Once a year?  Every century?  Has the hat opportunity been completely missed now or can Rumple give it another try again?  Do they move forward and try to protect Hook's heart the same way Henry's heart is so that Rumple can't put his hands on it again?

 

I bet they thought of none of that unless they decide to just plain destroy this hat that has been around for a very, very long time.  But then, why did the Sorcerer create it in the first place since it can't even distinguish between good/light and dark magic?

 

In conclusion, the Sorcerer seems to be an idiot.

[RadioGirl27]

I think what was frustrating about the heart storyline, is that it seemed to be setting up something big for Hook and Emma, only to have it really just a minor part of Rumple's 4a arc.  Sure Emma thought something was wrong, but, if anything, it showed her feelings weren't "all" in yet to the point of getting on a horse and riding to him to save the day.  We've yet to see Emma actually prioritize Hook in a crisis.

I'm bringing this from the spoilers thread (it's not an spoiler, don't worry), because I've been thinking about it, and I've come to the conclusion that the writers don't know how to write Emma in her relationship with Hook, and that's why they show her as totally in love in one scene (the way she caresses his face in the dinner, the way she holds his heart in Heroes and Villains, the goodbye kiss in Fall) and totally uninterested in the next (Emma going back to help Elsa, Anna and Kristoff instead of going after him, she not realising he has desappeared multiple times).

I don't know if it's because they don't know how to write a believable relationship between two damaged characters as Hook and Emma, if they have lost interest in them as a couple now that they are together, or if it's just part of the new queer-baiting trend they have started this season (for every bit they give to the Captain Swan shippers, they give another one to the Swan Queen shippers). But it's starting to be frustrating.

[OnceUponAJen]

I've suspected that they might have a bigger emotional scene between them plotted for later, and perhaps that is why they're skirting around it now? That's pure speculation on my part, and trying to make sense of it. But, it would be nice to see her putting him first as he does with her. He's been so up-front about his feelings since S3, so I'm expecting that other shoe to drop with her.

[YaddaYadda]

I've suspected that they might have a bigger emotional scene between them plotted for later, and perhaps that is why they're skirting around it now?

 

That's what I've been thinking as well, they need to work on their delivery better.  I get the impression that a lot of things might have hit the editing floor as well.  Reading what CO'D and JMo had to say before the show aired vs what aired was a bit different, unless we read too much into it.

[Amerilla]

I think the perspective is very different for the actors than the writers.

 

Jen and Colin, Lana and Sean, Bobby and Emilie, all clearly see (and play) their various characters as being in genuinely love with their partners - but the writing/plotting only rarely supports it.

 

The writers (headed by A&E) clearly treat Emma, Rumpel and Regina as characters who are always going to have their own, much more important things going on, and the bulk of their on-screen time is always going to lean more towards the Existential Threat of the Moment than noticing that your boyfriend is being terrorized or having your new bride literally sleep through, like, three consecutive episodes, or whatever was going on with Outlaw Queen. 

 

So shippers will all get "moments" that keep them hooked (no pun intended), but the idea that these are ever going to be presented as well-rounded couples, who talk about things and seem to spend time together and be interested in each others interior lives and kiss and touch and plan and dream..well, that's why fan fiction exists. For the writers, romance exists primarily to give the main characters something to lose or gain as the wider plot requires. The rest of the time, their partners might as well invest in some nice, comfy recliners to nap in. Or maybe pitch in for an XBox.

[Faemonic]

Prediction for 4B!

 

Yeah, I don't think Hook's heartfelt phone confession is ever coming back. The writing on this show is beginning to remind me of Byzantium, a movie that I've never seen but only watched through

. Basically, bad thing happens to the main character and it's portrayed as very, very, very traumatic to the character...but that's it. It doesn't develop the character, it doesn't develop the character's relationships... or, conflict arises! ...But in the most isolated, so statement-artistic that it makes no sense way that is actually easy and lazy in terms of storytelling.

 

Once isn't even trying to be statement-artistic, thank goodness, but that same isolated element of conflict, and how stagey everything is getting with like nobody's alive unless somebody's watching is really getting in the way of its enjoyability in my opinion.

Edited December 27, 2014 by Faemonic

[OnceUponAJen]

I suspected that the whole heart plot was going to be downplayed in the mid-season finale when all the interviews before it aired were about the three new villians and Robin/Regina. I was really hoping not since there was a build up of that storyline. Of course, it could still be played out later in the season.

[scenicbyway]

I'm bringing this from the spoilers thread (it's not an spoiler, don't worry), because I've been thinking about it, and I've come to the conclusion that the writers don't know how to write Emma in her relationship with Hook, and that's why they show her as totally in love in one scene (the way she caresses his face in the dinner, the way she holds his heart in Heroes and Villains, the goodbye kiss in Fall) and totally uninterested in the next (Emma going back to help Elsa, Anna and Kristoff instead of going after him, she not realising he has desappeared multiple times).

I don't know if it's because they don't know how to write a believable relationship between two damaged characters as Hook and Emma, if they have lost interest in them as a couple now that they are together, or if it's just part of the new queer-baiting trend they have started this season (for every bit they give to the Captain Swan shippers, they give another one to the Swan Queen shippers). But it's starting to be frustrating.

I think you're on to something  Radiogirl,  with not knowing how to write Hook and Emma in a relationship. Hook always prioritizes Emma, Emma only pays attention to him in the "quiet" moments.  If he pushes for more she's gets upset.  But, I also think there's a fairly loud non-shipper uproar when it appears that Emma and Hook are always together fighting crime and kissing vs. Emma with every other character.

 

It appears the writers might've thought by pairing Emma and Regina with their boyfriends at the same time it would've made Swan Queen fade away, but it hasn't worked so now they're embracing it for now and baiting. Ugh.

Edited December 27, 2014 by scenicbyway

[YaddaYadda]

It appears the writers might've thought by pairing Emma and Regina with their boyfriends at the same time it would've made Swan Queen fade away, but it hasn't worked so now they're embracing it for now and baiting. Ugh.

 

Emma and Hook have sort of been a work in progress and Regina as far as my personal opinion goes on that is they went all wrong about her and Robin.  You wanna bring in fairy dust ordained love?  Fine!  But why bring back his not so dead wife in the mix just for the sake of manufacturing fake angst when we know what the end result will be anyway?  We all know that Robin won't be falling back in love with Marian.  She's just a giant plot point towards the whole Author of the book quest, she's what's standing between Regina and her happy ending.

 

I doubt SQ will ever fade away because you always have a faction that sees what it wants to see (and it goes for every ship really).  Emma and Hook can be married, with a dozen kids and same with Regina and Robin and they could be living in different countries not giving a crap what the other is doing, they'll still be in love with each other or whatever...never mind the verbal abuse Regina has laid on Emma (though things seem to have mellowed since 406).

[KingOfHearts]

 

I think what was frustrating about the heart storyline, is that it seemed to be setting up something big for Hook and Emma, only to have it really just a minor part of Rumple's 4a arc.  Sure Emma thought something was wrong, but, if anything, it showed her feelings weren't "all" in yet to the point of getting on a horse and riding to him to save the day.  We've yet to see Emma actually prioritize Hook in a crisis.

In my opinion, I believe the writers thought that Rumple's comeuppance was the resolution for Hook's plot line. That throws Emma and Captain Swan under the bus, but these showrunners have a way of intending to do one thing but actually doing another. (See: Rumple's "dagger PTSD")

Edited December 27, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[RadioGirl27]

In my opinion, I believe the writers thought that Rumple's comeuppance was the resolution for Hook's plot line. That throws Emma and Captain Swan under the bus, but these showrunners have a way of intending to do one thing but actually doing another. (See: Rumple's "dagger PTSD")

I'm pertty sure neither Adam nor Eddy see what was wrong with the winter finale regarding Hook and Emma, and the comment about the 40 minutes make out session proves it. I can see them reading all the criticism and being "but they kissed..twice. I don't know what else this shippers want".

[KAOS Agent]

The complete lack of understanding by the writers at fans' frustration with the finale is pushing me towards not continuing to watch the show. I'm used to the lack of payoff with regards to certain things, but this show has generally at least delivered on the major plotlines for the season. That they set up major drama with Hook/Rumpel, Emma/Hook and Rumpel/Belle and only gave a cursory effort at dealing with any of these pretty much drains me of any interest in future stories. Why get invested in these characters and what's happening to them if there is no payoff even for what is the main story? And no, a 25 second scene does not cut it. It's made worse that so much was sacrificed so that we could see Regina tell every character how she felt with regards to Outlaw Queen. It's pretty obvious Robin will be back in a few episodes anyway, so the writers focusing their time on that rather than the drama they spent an entire season building up shows me where their interest lies. 

[Faemonic]

The show as a whole was at its peak in Season One and the pattern since then has just been a plummet overall. It was the showrunners' longest writer's block, and the biggest twist subversion in the whole show ever was a flop (Regina hates Snow because...dun, dun, duuunnnnn! ... What, that's it?) And the second biggest twist subversion in the whole show ever was just are you kidding me (Neal left Emma and let her go to prison because Pinnocchio told him to...and he loved her too much to ever actually communicate anything important. Which Emma, in Neal's final days, understands and accepts.)

 

Things that sounded like they should be well-planned or inspired such as the Oz or Frozen arcs were just haphazard. I adore the entire cast and I can only hope that they all find really, really, really good gigs after this...it frankly shouldn't be too difficult to find better gigs.

[Mari]

The complete lack of understanding by the writers at fans' frustration with the finale is pushing me towards not continuing to watch the show. I'm used to the lack of payoff with regards to certain things, but this show has generally at least delivered on the major plotlines for the season.

Honestly, the only thing keeping me watching at this point is this discussion board, simply because nothing I'm interested in ever gets a decent payoff, and the show has shoved Awesome Regina down my throat enough I actively dislike any scene she's in.  Since the next part is most likely going to be all about her, I'm trying to weigh the cost/benefit  of continuing to watch, too.

[Souris]

Either Jane Espenson or Kalinda Vazquez (I can't remember which) said they go over in the writers' room what worked and why. I hope they also go over what DIDN'T work and why, as I think that is probably more helpful. I wonder, though, because they never seem to learn. They not only keep making the same mistakes, but actually make the same mistakes WORSE the next time.

 

I do not think they get AT ALL why some fans felt so frustrated and let-down by the finale. They certainly haven't indicated that maybe they didn't pull it off as well as they could have. Instead, they got defensive and mocking when asked about the Hook/Emma stuff being rushed. So I think they're too in love with their ideas and writing to accept that they're not God's gift to storytelling.

 

I have watched enough really GOOD and well-written TV shows to know how things could and should be done. Once isn't one. The setup is often there, but the followthrough generally isn't. A&E seem to have pretty good ideas, but they can't shepherd them all the way from conception to screen. I think if it weren't for the actors, the show's failings would be even more obvious; the actors are able to sell a lot of things that lesser actors wouldn't.

[Shanna Marie]

Either Jane Espenson or Kalinda Vazquez (I can't remember which) said they go over in the writers' room what worked and why. I hope they also go over what DIDN'T work and why, as I think that is probably more helpful.

The trick is figuring out what worked and why and what didn't work and why -- are they basing it on their own perceptions, critical response, viewer response? Because unless they're capable of brutal honesty about their own work, if they just look at what they've done without any outside feedback, then they can easily fall into a self-congratulatory echo chamber. And if that happens, it'll never improve because they can't see the faults. It's not like they're deliberately writing badly. They're writing what they think is good. If they thought it was good to begin with, are they really going to come back to the writers' room and figure out how to make it better? I mean, other than making it even more about Regina, finding new ways for Regina to be a victim while still being powerful, adding more scenes of people talking about how much Regina deserves a happy ending because she's come so far, etc.

 

If they're listening to fans, which fans? Do they ever look at more in-depth discussion forums, like this one, or is it all Twitter rage?

[FabulousTater]

I adore the entire cast and I can only hope that they all find really, really, really good gigs after this...it frankly shouldn't be too difficult to find better gigs.

LOL, IA. I wonder if the actors read through good scripts for other shows/projects and think to themselves "Oh, wow. So this is what a good story script looks like....I'd almost forgotten."

 

Honestly, the only thing keeping me watching at this point is this discussion board, simply because nothing I'm interested in ever gets a decent payoff, and the show has shoved Awesome Regina down my throat enough I actively dislike any scene she's in.  Since the next part is most likely going to be all about her, I'm trying to weigh the cost/benefit  of continuing to watch, too.

Totally agree. These discussion boards kept me from dropping the show entirely. I mean, I was mostly just watching YouTube clips of the parts that interested me, but now not even that is worth it.

 

I was hoping that Emma's meltdown in 4x07 would lead to some juicy scenes between her and Snow. But no. Pffft, of course that had no pay-off. Of. Freaking. Course .*SMH*... So then I was hoping Emma's story line with the Snow Queen being her foster mother would go somewhere interesting once Emma regained her memories of Ingrid. But nope. It's wasn't even something that was acknowledged once Emma got her memories back. It might as well've never happened it was so utterly. pointless. So fiiiiinally, I was (foolishly) hoping that all the scenes the writers worked into the show early in the season which addressed how very deeply Emma cares for Hook, so much so that she tells him she can't bear to lose him (I mean, hell, for Emma that's almost like saying ILY!) and also Hook living like a deadman walking for half of 4A (as if every moment he spent with Emma could be his last with her) would culminate in some good emotional pay-off (i.e., meaningful conversation, writers...FFS) between Emma and Hook -- because, you know, he almost died and she almost lost him -- but, nooooooooooo, no emotional pay-off for the 'Tater.

 

Emma and Hook's scene lasted a whopping 24 seconds! It actually took longer to buffer the YouTube video of that scene on my mobile than it took to actually watch it. And the really sad part is that measly 24 second "resolution" was the longest screen time given to "resolving" any of Emma's storylines in 4A. Emma and Snowing had their usual one-liner and hug which was a 12 seconds long exchange (hugging takes up time, guys. Just so you know). Though, you can extend that storyline "resolution" to 30 seconds tops if you add in the scenes from the Shattered Sight episode where Snow hands Snowflake over to Emma and tells Emma she isn't afraid of her 'cause Emma's magic is going to save them (of course). So, there it is. Uncounted minutes in multiple episodes spent building up the storylines for a grand total of 54 seconds of resolution for all of Emma/Snowing/Hook's storylines. *sad trombone* 

 

With that kind of number coming up in a cost/benefit analysis, the only answer for me is "Nope. Not worth it." The attachment I have left for these characters is going to have to be satisfied with fics 'cause I sure as hell ain't gonna get it from continuing to watch the show.

Edited December 28, 2014 by FabulousTater

[Camera One]

Either Jane Espenson or Kalinda Vazquez (I can't remember which) said they go over in the writers' room what worked and why. I hope they also go over what DIDN'T work and why, as I think that is probably more helpful. I wonder, though, because they never seem to learn. They not only keep making the same mistakes, but actually make the same mistakes WORSE the next time.

 

I mean, do the writers even watch the finished product again when they evaluate the past season?  Are they just working off their head-canon, so it seems like everything makes sense, and all the characters' actions are consistent in their minds?  Because the problems are not too difficult to spot, and are in so many different areas, from plotting, to world-building, to character development and follow-through.

 

If they're listening to fans, which fans? Do they ever look at more in-depth discussion forums, like this one, or is it all Twitter rage?

 

They write like they respond to the Twitter rage.  And since there's never any twitter rage about neglecting Emma's relationship with Snowing, it only gets worse.

[KAOS Agent]

I don't necessarily blame the writers for not taking the hate they get on Twitter seriously or even ignoring it altogether given how venomous it is. However, there are numerous sources of constructive criticism out there where they could ascertain the problems fans point out about the show. I don't need to see the showrunners out there apologizing or admitting that their work isn't the most wonderful thing ever. Publicly admitting things could be better isn't even a good idea. Although they do need to stop with the mocking of fans' reaction. Internally, though, they could look at some of the things discussed in the more civilized discussion boards and discuss whether those viewers/reviewers might have a point. They could then work to address any aspects they agree could be better. I wouldn't hold my breath on this happening, but it's not like it needs to be a public thing. 

Edited December 28, 2014 by KAOS Agent

[Camera One]

I definitely do not expect the writers to take hateful comments on Twitter seriously.  But they seem to use those as a checklist when writing the next season (Emma/Regina episode check, [insert couple here] romantic moment check, etc.).  

 

As for publicly admitting their mistakes, that's not necessary either.  Actions speak louder than words.  There's clearly very little awareness of any of the 3B problems from how they've plotted anything non-Frozen in 4A.

[KAOS Agent]

I wonder if the showrunners are able to separate criticism of plotting, characterization and the lack of world building, magical rules, realistic character emotional reactions and payoffs with fan criticism of the stories themselves. Do they write off a viewer saying that they disliked something as just because they disliked the story/character? I get that there are plenty of people who hate Hook and will always hate Hook no matter what. Same goes for every character on this show. However, we're not all irrational fan boys/girls who want their woobie to always be happy and have a perfect life. All of us have characters/stories we enjoy more than others, but I think that everyone agrees that the writing suffers from some serious problems that affect all of the characters and plotlines at some point or another. 

 

Viewer frustration bubbled up this fall with their comments that Emma doesn't know that Graham was murdered by Regina. They were confused at the negative response to this comment, but seemed to kind of blame it all on bitter Graham fans and not viewers who were expressing frustration with the utter lack of payoff for Graham's murder especially in light of the storyline playing out in 4A. It's this kind of cluelessness that makes me wonder how they actually view criticism. To them are we all just bitter fans who are mad because our favorite isn't getting what we want?

[myril]

If they'd had some smart PR folks, they would get a weekly briefing about what is discussed online on whatever forum - assessed, put into context and summed up, a media performance analysis, which in these days should include influencers aka podcasts, bloggers, places of discussions like forums and as well include Twitter, Tumblr, Facebook and alike. It shouldn't reflect just the most popular trends and be about numbers, it should take a short and pointed look at discussed issues.

 

Shippers, and particular those obsessed with concrete (physical) part of romance, might be the loudest and most visible part of the fandom, but there had been other people, at least at the beginning,, who where into this show for the joy and richness fantasy could offer, for playing around creatively with traditional tales, bringing them into a modern world context, who revel depth of characters and stories and more than one level of meaning, or people in it for interesting, complex characters and their relations, relations going beyond who is doing and marrying who. But possible all these different kind of fans are dwindling and left is the shipping part.

 

I am done with this show. These writers have a huge pot of gold and all they do is to turn it into some shallow shiny tin toys with very thin gold foil coat. A lot of people dream of turning crap (or lead) into gold, but these writers seem to be satisfied to turn gold into crap. From a business point of view though they are  successful to make some money out of that nevertheless, so why should they care. From a story telling, writing point of view the show is a disappointment, and might at best become a good example for stupefying pseudo-development of characters.

 

Made the mistake to take the show serious, to think, that they could put fantasy and good drama into one show, but I was wrong. Unfortunately I am not yet able to undo this silly thought yet in mind, to undo that I took this show serious, so what it has become is not that enjoyable. Aside that I think, they don't do goofy and camp good either. When I look at a show like The Librarians, now filling the winter break time, I see, how one actually can do goofy and mindless, geeky, silly but entertaining fantasy fun -  I am not the least bit tempted to take that show any serious and, thanks maybe to the let down by OUaT, I am grateful for just silly fun at the moment.

 

It's a pity, that good drama in fantasy still seems to be something bound mostly to the world of literature and close to impossible to bring onto especially small screen (unless as maybe book adaption). Not giving up hope, there are a few shows around still promising, but Once Upon a Time is not it.

 

I dragged myself through season 3 of OUaT for the vain hope, that there still could be something in it for the main characters, but the writers managed in the end to turn the characters into silly cardboard cutouts, uninteresting, onedimensional wannabe cliches. It was not the story, which kept me around for 4A, it was the Frozen life cast, making much of little, while the writers killed the last bits of interest in the core characters for me.

 

The sad thing is, a lot of the story and character moments could make sense, if adding tons of thoughts and stuff in mind, but they don't do it on screen. I don't get for example, why fans of Regina still love the show, because this character was so butchered by now, that she's only a shadow of the potential the character had. Or I do get it, because I observe the meta mind stretching fans do to fit what they get served on screen to their headcanons. This show has some imaginative fans. The characters getting it best are those by now pretty much vanished from existence on the show, so I am at a point wishing, that neither Red nor Mulan or Tinkerbell will ever have to return, and seriously hope they're done with Blue (although of course would be happy for the actresses to earn some good money with the good work they do).

 

I will go on to enjoy some of the imagination in the fandom maybe, and still am curious about some discussions in the fandom, but the show itself has now become shark fodder IMO. No, I have no hope left for improvement, not with these show runners and writers. They like their show as it is, I don't, they can keep doing what they do, and I go and watch something else.

Edited December 28, 2014 by katusch

[Serena]

Viewer frustration bubbled up this fall with their comments that Emma doesn't know that Graham was murdered by Regina. They were confused at the negative response to this comment, but seemed to kind of blame it all on bitter Graham fans and not viewers who were expressing frustration with the utter lack of payoff for Graham's murder especially in light of the storyline playing out in 4A. It's this kind of cluelessness that makes me wonder how they actually view criticism. To them are we all just bitter fans who are mad because our favorite isn't getting what we want?

I simply cannot believe that a group of people of average intelligence could write something like this:

Character A [crying]: I'm so traumatized because This Thing happened!

[two days later]

Character A [to Character B, who maliciously caused The Thing]: Do you want to be BFF?

 

and NOT realize why people have a problem with it?

[Souris]

I simply cannot believe that a group of people of average intelligence could write something like this:

Character A [crying]: I'm so traumatized because This Thing happened!

[two days later]

Character A [to Character B, who maliciously caused The Thing]: Do you want to be BFF?

 

and NOT realize why people have a problem with it?

 

But, but, Character B has CHANGED! They're not the same person they were two days ago! So what they did doesn't matter! So Character A needs to apologize to Character B for being traumatized.

 

:sigh:

[Camera One]

I thought it would be fun to read some of A&E's interviews from earlier this year to further understand their take on things.

 

This one is from May 2014 before the two-hour 3B finale aired.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/once-a-time-season-3-702174

 

 

 

Interviewer: Looking ahead to season four, have you honed in on how you'll bring Michael Socha's Knave into the fold?

Horowitz: We've had extensive discussions with the writers already …
Kitsis: Mapping out next season.
Horowitz: We're very excited about the possibilities for Michael and all the characters.

 

Now we know the result of all those "extensive discussions".  LOL.

 

 

 

What does a Belle and Rumple engagement look like? He's hiding a big secret from her, and we know secrets never end well in Storybrooke.

Kitsis: Secrets never end well..… As we said, Rumple's love for Belle is genuine but he also let us know in their very first episode together, "Skin Deep," that he's a very difficult man to love. There are a lot of complicated things going on in his head and we're just beginning to explore that. Next year, we'll understand a lot more what he's thinking.

 

It's next year, and I don't feel that I understand what he's thinking still.

 

 

 

Interviewer: Will Belle find out about Rumple killing Zelena?

Kitsis: We'll have to wait and see when she finds out. It could be this weekend, it could be next year. You'll have to watch Sunday night.

 

Tune in 2017 to find out.

 

Here was the teaser for 4A interview from September 2014:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/once-a-time-season-4-733220

 

 

 

Can you clarify the timeline for the new season?

Adam Horowitz: Without giving the exact date, which we don't have in front of us, we are roughly in early 2013 given that the show started in October of 2011. We’ve been more or less running in real time, including the year time jump.

 

Interviewer: So the events of the Frozen movie took place in fairy-tale land before 2013, since we see Elsa and Anna in Arendelle of the past preparing for Anna's wedding to Kristoff.

 

Horowitz: The way to think about it is, divorce yourself from time and space as you know it and think of the world of story occurring in a timeless place.

 

"Which we don't have in front of us"  Good one.  I wish I had read this advice about "divorcing yourself from time and space" before watching this show. Maybe he should have added divorcing yourself from all mental activity as well.  Seriously speaking though, I guess this is the justification for "a long time ago" as a title card for everything.

 

 

 

Kitsis: It was very important that it still [feels like it's] Once Upon a Time. It’s not the Frozen sequel; it is the characters from Frozen coming to Once Upon a Time. So important stories like Rumple and Belle, Hook and Emma, Regina and Robin Hood, Snow White and Charming and their baby — all those stories that we left last season are still very central to the storytelling of season four and will be explored further. Once fans can relax — we have no intentions of sidelining those stories for Frozen.

 

The frustrating thing is, on paper, this statement is technically true.  But how much they were actually "explored" is debatable.  I suppose "explore further" doesn't necessarily mean "explore deeply".

Edited December 29, 2014 by Camera One

[Rumsy4]

I cracked-up reading your post, Camera One. A&E are either making it up as they go along episode by episode, or they really believe they are putting across all those things in show. I don't know which is worse at this point.

[KingOfHearts]

 

 

Now you have two queens in Storybrooke. Will one of the main conflicts this season be Regina and Elsa battling for power?

Horowitz: It’s not that it’s jockeying for power, it’s more about …

Kitsis: There’s a mystery.

Horowitz: And it’s hard to answer your question without spoiling, but I’ll try. When Elsa arrives, it signifies the start of a mystery that needs to be explored and answered. And the repercussions of that mystery reach out and touch everyone, and you’ll see it affects everyone from Regina to Emma to Rumplestiltskin.

 

The Frozen storyline really did nothing for Regina, besides Marian freezing.

 

I think separating the cast just doesn't work well on this show. Having everyone on completely different story tracks kept the plot looking serrated and messy. There wasn't enough continuity. Emma and Regina BFFs? Dropped after one episode. Mayor Snow? Gone midway through. Everything that wasn't Frozen related was all over the place, including the flashbacks. If it weren't for the Arendelle folks, it would have been another 2B or 3B.

Edited December 29, 2014 by KingOfHearts