The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[OnceUponAJen]

4 hours ago, KingOfHearts said:

So much this. I remember speculation about Curse 2 coming during their wedding. If OQ had dated for a year, or even gotten married, then the whole Marian situation would have been less icky.

What's worse is that not only were they not an item, but they were almost hostile to each other. The contrast to present day was stupidly heavy.

But if they had developed it, that hostility could have been a great platform for some sparks between them. I really wish they had fleshed out that relationship,  and the missing year would have been perfect for that. I ended up feeling like Robin Hood was just an afterthought.

Edited May 30, 2016 by OnceUponAJen

[KingOfHearts]

40 minutes ago, OnceUponAJen said:

But if they had developed it, that hostility could have been a great platform for some sparks between them. I really wish they had fleshed out that relationship,  and the missing year would have been perfect for that. I ended up feeling like Robin Hood was just an afterthought.

I agree. The "opposites attract" trope can work. The problem was that they acted totally different in the present from the past. That whole angle didn't exist in Storybrooke. Regina was all prissy in EF, then in Storybrooke she instantly fell in love with him.

Edited May 30, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

I personally felt little chemistry between the two characters, mixed in with a preference for the original Robin.  But there were multiple writing choices which COULD have made the Regina/Robin Hood relationship more organic and gradual:

1. Not having the insta-soulmate.  Or at least, having Regina NOT find out about the insta-soulmate immediately.  Have them fall for each other (gradually) BEFORE realizing he had the tattoo.

2. Have Sherwood Forest be far away from Snow White's kingdom, so Robin Hood had no idea who The Evil Queen was.  Have him fall in love with present-day Regina, before finding out her past.  And then properly having the couple work through that, with Regina showing GENUINE remorse to prove to Robin Hood AND the audience that she had changed instead of excusing her past behavior as "It's complicated".

3. Maybe NOT have Regina be the one to murder Marian?  Just maybe?  And if she did, show some remorse?  Have Robin Hood actually react to finding that out?  

Edited May 30, 2016 by Camera One

[kitticup]

For me the way to bring I'll Robin would have been in Season 1 or 2.  Robin should have been a minister constantly challenging Regina to budget more money for the poor (you know give to the poor).   He should have been challenging her.  Snow should have also challenged Regina to do good works and see how the poor lived.  Gradually as Regina changed from her myopic self absorbed perspective, she and Robin could explore their attraction.   This would be a good growth for Regina and a way to use opposites attract.

i sometimes wonder and this is pure speculation if Lana sees Regina as the main protagonist instead of antagonist and fights to have Regina get everything that Emma has.  First it was a close relationship with Henry.   Regina was emotionally abusive and wasn't a good step mother to snow.  The Evil Queen is not very maternal, but the Evil regals complained that this portrayal hurt adoptive families.  So Regina's less than stellar parenting is swept under the rug.  I would be ok with Regina changing but addressing the relationship issues.  I don't blame Henry for loving Regina and being protective of her.  It's normal for kids to love their parents regardless of how worthy the parent is.  

Emma gets to be the Savior and break the curse so Regina has to break the curse in 3b.  Emma and Hook become a popular pairing with epic moments, so of course Regina must have her epic love without any build up.  I hate that they wasted Tink's introduction on Regina.  We should have seen Tink interacting with Pan, Hook and/or Baefire.  

Edited May 30, 2016 by kitticup
While

[RadioGirl27]

Quote

 I sometimes wonder and this is pure speculation if Lana sees Regina as the main protagonist instead of antagonist and fights to have Regina get everything that Emma has. 

I don't know how much of this is true and how much is Lana being, well, Lana but she has said in different interviews that she asked the writers for a change in Regina's relationship with both Henry and Snow, and for a boyfriend for Regina, and that the writers every time agreed with her.

[Shanna Marie]

You almost have to wonder if Lana has compromising pictures of A&E because they've given in to her demands and given her what she's wanted for her character, but in a way that's actually bad for her as an actor because it's robbed her of potentially meaty material. So she wants a better relationship with Henry, and poof, there it is, with no juicy scenes of her having to really work through a reconciliation. She wants a better relationship with Snow, and poof, there it is, with no emotional scenes of contrition or her reaching out to build a relationship. She wants a boyfriend, and poof, there he is (literally), with no scenes of a growing romance or internal struggle with the idea of her first real relationship since Daniel. The character gets everything she wants, but the actress gets robbed of good material, so it's like they're passive-aggressively giving in to her demands (and yet they are giving in to her demands, which is why it's so weird the way they went about it).

Then again, from the way they talk in interviews, maybe they actually think they're giving her good material because she gets all those close-ups of her crying and then gets to show her range by doing the crazy-eyed Evil Queen in flashbacks several times a season. Still, none of that is what I'd consider Emmy reel worthy, while if they'd written honestly for Regina rather than just giving her everything Lana wanted, there might have been Emmy reel material there.

[Joanh23]

I'm wondering if we're going to see less of Emma in S6.  Jmo is going to start directing her film in June and even though she'll more than likely have finished filming it by the time they start back again in July, after that she'll be busy editing etc, so I wouldn't be surprised if Jmo misses some episodes.

[Amerilla]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

So she wants a better relationship with Henry, and poof, there it is, with no juicy scenes of her having to really work through a reconciliation. She wants a better relationship with Snow, and poof, there it is, with no emotional scenes of contrition or her reaching out to build a relationship. She wants a boyfriend, and poof, there he is (literally), with no scenes of a growing romance or internal struggle with the idea of her first real relationship since Daniel. The character gets everything she wants, but the actress gets robbed of good material, so it's like they're passive-aggressively giving in to her demands (and yet they are giving in to her demands, which is why it's so weird the way they went about it).

But all that presumes that they would have written a better story or told the story in a better way without Lana's input, which I don't think stands up to scrutiny.

To take a non-Lana example, one of our common assumptions is that they aren't keeping Rumpel on a redemption arc because Robert Carlyle doesn't want to play a redeemed Rumpel. Assume the writers have taken that to heart. Has Rumpel's story gotten better or meatier or juicier as a result? Not really. We also know that he was extremely pissed off when they killed off Nealfire, because he had been promised an exploration of that father-son dynamic. We know they didn't take that to heart. Has Rumpel's story gotten better or meatier or juicier as a result? Not really. 

Hack writers are hack writers; whether they accede to an actor's suggestions or requests or ignore them doesn't have any real impact on that baseline hacky-ness. We know from interviews with various actors - maybe even the majority of the cast, at this point - that they are often confused by the choices the writers make with their characters. It doesn't seem to matter how high up they are in the cast hierarchy or what level of input they have.

I'd add (and again, surprising myself to be pro-Lana): I don't think that there's anything wrong with her trying to be proactive about her character. Nor are the things she's presumably asked for really bad ideas. Regina has to have other characters to interact with, not just interact at. (Again, look at Rumpel: the more isolated he's become, the more boring he's become. He's reduced to three revolving monologues that we can all probably recite in our sleep at this point.) Snow and Henry are, for different reasons, the most important relationships in her character's emotional life- far more than Emma (sorry, SQers!). For someone whose emotional isolation was rooted in the loss of a first love, who she kept trying to bring back to life for years and years, moving beyond that and finding love again is another important emotional beat. In a well-written drama, writers could do some very interesting things with all these themes, assuming that the writers had been more interested in character than plot from the get-go. So I think her instincts about her character are spot-on....but the people who are tasked with telling that story just aren't up to the task.   

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Amerilla said:

Again, look at Rumpel: the more isolated he's become, the more boring he's become. He's reduced to three revolving monologues that we can all probably recite in our sleep at this point.

When the stars in the hat align with the stars in the sky...

[KingOfHearts]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

When the stars in the hat align with the stars in the sky...

Cleave.

[Shanna Marie]

6 hours ago, Amerilla said:

But all that presumes that they would have written a better story or told the story in a better way without Lana's input, which I don't think stands up to scrutiny.

I don't think the problem is with her input. What she asked for isn't too out of line, though I'm not crazy about the idea of "fixing" the issue of an adoptive parent being abusive because of the sensitivities of the adoption community because it's kind of a disservice to abuse victims to just sweep that under the rug like it was no big deal. But it's weird that they catered to her requests in such a way that it wasn't good for either her as an actress or for her character. That's why I was joking/not joking about her having some kind of leverage on them. For whatever reason, they gave in to her requests, but they didn't seem all that interested in actually writing those stories. Maybe they thought they did a great job of writing Regina's redemption and her relationships with Snow and Henry (though it wasn't as though there were any actual scenes of them reconciling -- their relationships just changed), but they clearly were never all that interested in or invested in the character of Robin or his relationship with Regina. So, if they didn't want to actually write that relationship, why did they bother? Were they obligated to give in to the request and then half-assed it like a kid given a chore who does it so badly that he'll never be asked again? Regina is obviously their favorite character, but she gets the worst writing on the show. Though Rumple comes a close second. His writing is just repetitive. He doesn't have all his potentially good material skipped over.

[Camera One]

Adam mentioned on Twitter that he and Eddy wrote an essay for Variety way back when, about writing "Lost".

http://variety.com/2009/scene/features/writers-talk-about-working-on-lost-1118002953/

Let's see if there are any insights into their writing on "Once"?

There are some "Lost" references that might be confusing, but the main "gist" of their method is clear.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Camera One

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

Let's see if there are any insights into their writing on "Once"?

Oh my gosh - the first day is even labeled "Wouldn't it be cool if..."

[OnceUponAJen]

8 minutes ago, KingOfHearts said:

Oh my gosh - the first day is even labeled "Wouldn't it be cool if..."

Hey, this board got it right! That is part of their process :)

[Camera One]

So much for "joking" about that now... and every episode goes through it.  No wonder.

[Rumsy4]

Most of our forum jokes have turned out to be quite true when it comes to this Show. :-p

[KingOfHearts]

Season one, starting at the Pilot, felt very big and important. It had a cinematic touch to it and the universe seemed rich. Ironically, with more worlds and characters, the scope now feels diminished. Even though we've got a ton of stories to pull from, the writing is small-minded. The only moments that were remotely "epic" were the CS scenes in S5.

[KAOS Agent]

8 hours ago, Amerilla said:

I'd add (and again, surprising myself to be pro-Lana): I don't think that there's anything wrong with her trying to be proactive about her character. Nor are the things she's presumably asked for really bad ideas. Regina has to have other characters to interact with, not just interact at. (Again, look at Rumpel: the more isolated he's become, the more boring he's become.

I actually do think it's a problem that they acceded to Lana's wishes for Regina because she asked for those things prior to Season 3. In show time, she had told Henry she was planning to murder all his family and friends and then memory wiped him and then set out to carry out her murderous plans about two days before the start of S3. Giving her an instantly improved relationship with Henry and Snow at that point is ludicrous. Having a romantic interest at that point borders on insanity. Regina the character was not in a place where things could just be swept under the rug and instantly fixed and she sure as hell couldn't do all that and have a romantic interest at the same time. This is exactly what happened in 3B and it failed on a massive scale because it made no sense for her character. They didn't develop her interpersonal relationships at all. The character needed time (the compressed time frame on this show doesn't help) to work through her problems with Henry rather than True Love's Kiss and immediate acceptance from him. I'll give them the Snow one because they could bond in the Missing Year, but the rest was just bad writing and I'm not sure that they would have gone there so quickly without the actress asking for it. 

Edited May 31, 2016 by KAOS Agent

[Shanna Marie]

13 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

I actually do think it's a problem that they acceded to Lana's wishes for Regina because she asked for those things prior to Season 3. In show time, she had told Henry she was planning to murder all his family and friends and then memory wiped him and then set out to carry out her murderous plans about two days before the start of S3. Giving her an instantly improved relationship with Henry and Snow at that point is ludicrous. Having a romantic interest at that point borders on insanity. Regina the character was not in a place where things could just be swept under the rug and instantly fixed and she sure as hell couldn't do all that and have a romantic interest at the same time.

I do think the timing and the fact that all these things happened at once was the problem and what makes the decisions look really weird. It became the perfect storm of Mary Sueisms: All at once Regina had a close relationship with the stepdaughter she'd been trying to murder, a happy and loving relationship with the son she'd just been abusing, a love interest ordained by pixie dust to be her soulmate, and to top it off, she was able to use the most powerful light magic. In 3B, an improved relationship between Snow and Regina might have made sense because of the Missing Year. They could have bonded over both of them being separated from their children, except all they showed us was Snow consoling Regina over being separated from Henry without any acknowledgment that Snow was separated from Emma yet again and without any empathy on Regina's part about realizing how terrible it was to separate a parent from a child or any guilt about having done that to multiple families. With Henry, not only was there the season 1 gaslighting and nearly killing him while trying to kill Emma, but in season 2 she forced him to come home by threatening the whole town and then tried to hold him prisoner with magic vines, and then there was her plan to kill his whole family. She wiped his memory after bringing that up, but that's how the whole failsafe thing came into being, so he knew what she'd done even if he didn't remember her telling her plans. The show seems to forget that when Henry was banging on the door in season 4 and demanding to be allowed to come home because he missed his room, the last time he was in that room was when she was holding him there with magic vines.

So, did they really think that these were all the best moves to make for the character? Was there a reason they couldn't have said, "Thank you for your suggestions, and these are plots we do have in mind for coming seasons, but right now we're planning to start with the relationship between Regina and Snow."? Does Lana really have that degree of industry clout to make these demands? Or was it them being people pleasers and making promises, then no longer caring by the time it came to write this stuff, on a par with the much hyped same-sex romance that ended up being just something flung out there? Is anyone else on the show making requests for their characters?

[Curio]

I've seen it come up numerous times in these forums that Lana went to Adam & Eddy and discussed "character suggestions" for Regina, but I've never actually seen these interviews with her direct quotes. Can someone link them here? I don't doubt they exist, I just don't want to discuss something that might be hearsay. 

[Serena]

I only remember her requesting the Henry/Regina relationship, and that was a video from a con (not Comic Con, one of the for-profit ones) because I remember seeing gifs. As for her requesting a love interest, I remember something about her saying "Regina's love interest has to be manly" but I don't remember her saying she requested it. The quote was from TV Guide, I believe.

[Shanna Marie]

In an article about fandom in general that's linked in the fandom thread, there's a mention about fans wanting things for characters that's the opposite of good drama:

Quote

There are new wrinkles for younger fans, a group that seems uninterested in conflict or personal difficulty in their narratives (look at the popularity of fan fics set in coffee shops or bakeries, which posit the characters of a comic or TV show or movie they love as co-workers having sub-sitcom level interactions. I had an argument with a younger fan on Twitter recently and she told me that what she wants out of a Captain America story is to see Steve Rogers be happy and get whatever he wants - ie, the exact opposite of what you want from good drama)

Regardless of who initiated the request for a lot of the Regina stuff, this sounds like the way Regina is written. They write Regina like they just want her to be happy, and then they realize that they've made her boring and overcorrect by ripping Robin away from her. Generally, her dilemmas are easily resolved because they turn out not to be real dilemmas -- Marian was Zelena all along, so she gets Robin back, her father not only doesn't hate her for murdering him, he blames himself for failing her, Cora restores her and Zelena's memories so they can easily reconcile. It'll be interesting to see how they handle the aftermath of Robin's death because they set that up as something there's no way to easily fix. Will they just hand her a new love interest?

[Joanh23]

Yes while I don't doubt that Lana (and I'm sure others actors did as well) petitioned A&E to change/improve storylines for her character I dont think she has that much sway with them that they'd do whatever she asked them to do.

 I think the writers fell in love with the idea of reforming the EQ so much that they rushed her redemption and they didn't have her (and by extension the people around her) actually deal with her past as the EQ.  Now in order to finally have Regina face her past, they are telling us the EQ & Regina are 2 separate people - from what I've read/listened to most fans seem to think this is a step back for Regina and a different message to what the show has been preaching since S1.  

What frustrates me the most about this latest Regina twist is that I'm pretty sure I know how the story will be resolved - Regina will need to finally acknowledge that she and the EQ are the same person and reabsorb the EQ back into her.  It's lazy storytelling and they should have dealt with Regina vs the EQ about 2 seasons ago.  I will only be watching S6 for Emma and Hook, and the few charming family scenes we'll get.

[maryle]

Well, as a Emma fans I fells underwelmed by the lack of real emotional pay off for Emma and the Charming clan of this suppose Swan heavy focus year.

I remember last summer how please I was to hear them keep repeating Swan Swan Swan...like a mantra while promoting the DS arc.

Looking back we didnt have long scene were Emma verbally got to open up her to Snow or Hook.. I kept waiting for a real discussion betweem Emma and her parents (Henry or Hook) it still have not ,yet, come.

Just some symbol like the nursery item as decoration could remain the audience that Emma still has issues.

So, Charming clan  and CS fans has griefs and fear for next season too. 

The writer's biggest problem is they use the show as a big Rorscharc projective test where everyone can projet what they like (Rumbelle,E.R.CS,Ruby-Dorothy...) without to really commit to anything. At first it can seem like a brilliant idea but the risk is that the show end up looking like nothing at all and all fans displeased. Anyway it's really my mind right now about the show 

[KAOS Agent]

7 hours ago, Curio said:

I've seen it come up numerous times in these forums that Lana went to Adam & Eddy and discussed "character suggestions" for Regina, but I've never actually seen these interviews with her direct quotes. Can someone link them here? I don't doubt they exist, I just don't want to discuss something that might be hearsay. 

The Henry relationship was discussed at Fairy Tales Con.

Here's a comment from Lana about pitching Hook as her love interest in HuffPo, but I know there's some commentary from her elsewhere where she mentions asking for a love interest: 

"So, is Captain Hook a foe?
I don’t know yet. We’ll see. I haven’t worked with him yet. I pitched it, I said, 'Can he be her love interest!?’' at Comic-Con when we saw that he was joining our cast this season. I was like, '[Gasps] Captain Hook is the perfect match for the Evil Queen!'"

[Camera One]

She says, "The relationship [between Regina and Henry] wasn't as developed as she had liked."  It's not like it's any more developed now.  The Writers think insta-forgiveness or insta-bonding = development, when it really doesn't.  I still don't buy the Regina and Henry relationship (nor the Regina/Snow relationship, nor the Regina/Emma relationship), because all of them felt forced, jumped a millions of steps, and necessitated one half of the pairing to forfeit their own feelings/concerns/issues.  Yet the Writers love to give themselves kudos for these three relationships in particular, as if it's a huge accomplishment and groundbreaking to have Regina and Snow White as "friends" when it's totally unearned.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Camera One

[Faemonic]

43 minutes ago, KAOS Agent said:

The Henry relationship was discussed at Fairy Tales Con.

Here's a comment from Lana about pitching Hook as her love interest in HuffPo, but I know there's some commentary from her elsewhere where she mentions asking for a love interest: 

"So, is Captain Hook a foe?
I don’t know yet. We’ll see. I haven’t worked with him yet. I pitched it, I said, 'Can he be her love interest!?’' at Comic-Con when we saw that he was joining our cast this season. I was like, '[Gasps] Captain Hook is the perfect match for the Evil Queen!'"

I ship Hook with all characters that are past the age of majority and not related to him by blood, so I really believe this could have worked. Then again, 3B soured Captain Swan a lot for me. I walked the plank off Rumbelle the first time in Storybrooke that Belle ran off and came back. So, I must admit that it's awfully easy to ruin something for me. I don't know how y'all other shippers find the hope/faith/fortitude.

 

But TS;TW would have soured Hooked Queen in like 0.2 seconds.

[KingOfHearts]

Dang, I would have shipped Hooked Queen. They would have been a great match in S2.

[Faemonic]

8 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

In an article about fandom in general that's linked in the fandom thread, there's a mention about fans wanting things for characters that's the opposite of good drama:

Regardless of who initiated the request for a lot of the Regina stuff, this sounds like the way Regina is written. They write Regina like they just want her to be happy, and then they realize that they've made her boring and overcorrect by ripping Robin away from her.

 

Generally, her dilemmas are easily resolved because they turn out not to be real dilemmas -- Marian was Zelena all along, so she gets Robin back.

Actually, I am not so sure about that. Maybe I've been reading the wrong fanfiction, this one (Ducklings, ignore the foreword), this one...but the quoted article's "sub-sitcom interactions" in fanfiction that lack a plotty conflict is...maybe kind of what this show could benefit from? Like, oh, please,  yes, more slice of life! 

Quote

 It'll be interesting to see how they handle the aftermath of Robin's death because they set that up as something there's no way to easily fix. Will they just hand her a new love interest?

This show has shiny magic and easily bored concept people, so an easy fix seems to be the way of it...

Edited June 1, 2016 by Faemonic

[kitticup]

3 hours ago, KAOS Agent said:

 

 

Quote

Here's a comment from Lana about pitching Hook as her love interest in HuffPo, but I know there's some commentary from her elsewhere where she mentions asking for a love interest: 

"So, is Captain Hook a foe?
I don’t know yet. We’ll see. I haven’t worked with him yet. I pitched it, I said, 'Can he be her love interest!?’' at Comic-Con when we saw that he was joining our cast this season. I was like, '[Gasps] Captain Hook is the perfect match for the Evil Queen!'"

Hmmm, I wonder how Cora would feel about Hook hooking up with Regina.  On the one hand, he isn't a prince.  Cora would not like that given her royal obsession.  

But on the other, Cora seems to like Hook in her own way.  She appreciates his pretty face and charm, enough to like his company and considered him her fairy godmother.  While Cora would not hesitate to kill Hook, I don't think she would enjoy it or do so without a strong reason.  I won't say they're friends but she isn't cruelly indifferent to him as she is to pretty much everyone else.  To Cora, people are like bugs to crush for fun.  Cora probably be ok with Hook as a consort that could keep his heart and do his own thing so long as he knew who was boss.  Cora might want to keep him for herself.  I wonder how Rumple would feel about that.

Edited June 1, 2016 by kitticup
Typos

[Faemonic]

4 hours ago, kitticup said:

 I wonder how Cora would feel about Hook hooking up with Regina.  

Taking my reply to the Relationships thread.

[Shanna Marie]

17 hours ago, Faemonic said:

but the quoted article's "sub-sitcom interactions" in fanfiction that lack a plotty conflict is...maybe kind of what this show could benefit from? Like, oh, please,  yes, more slice of life! 

But have you noticed that when that kind of scene happens, it tends to involve Regina? There was that fireside picnic scene between Robin and Regina in the season 3 finale that was pure schmoop. There was no plot purpose to the scene of them talking about how they were soulmates, no conflict, and since they never brought up any potential conflict between them because of Regina having been the one to separate him from Marian, it didn't even work as foreshadowing. Has any other couple on the show had that kind of scene? All the Rumpbelle scenes are about them either breaking up or getting back together. We haven't seen them just being happy on a date. We haven't really seen any married bliss scenes between the Charmings. We didn't see the date part of Hook and Emma's first date, just his angst about his possibly evil hand, and all their snuggling and talking scenes in season four ended up being plot setups. The season five finale "I love you" was as close as you get to that kind of hanging out and being happy scene.

With Henry, Regina got that scene of taking him out for ice cream in 3B, and while it was kind of angsty on her part because it hurt her that he didn't remember her, that also made it closer to being a slice of life because they couldn't talk about anything plot-related. It was just Regina and Henry, hanging out and talking. The only time Emma's had anything like that with Henry was when they were in New York and neither of them had their memories. Regina's had more scenes of talking to Snow about her relationship with Robin (the "you should go for it!" kitchen scene and the "adultery is totally okay!" scene) than Emma has had talking to her mother about her relationship with Hook. The Charmings also got the "my social climbing mother who wanted me to be a queen never taught me to dance or had me go to a ball, so can you help me with that?" scene with Regina, with no real family scenes like that with their own daughter.

There definitely is an angstpuppy faction of fanfic, and even some degree of torture porn (sometimes in the sense of hurt/comfort), but I think in the past the non-plotty pure schmoop stuff came from filling in the blanks and writing the stuff that seldom makes it into a show. But everyone knew there was a reason those kinds of scenes didn't make it into the show. Demanding that favorite characters just be happy with no conflict is kind of new. While I wouldn't mind more slice-of-life stuff, it generally needs to have something else going on to make it meaningful enough to go in a show. I think a lot of the Hook and Emma stuff in season 4 worked well that way -- them looking at the box of treasures was a nice character and relationship moment that told us a lot about them and how they interact, but it led into a big plot revelation, so there was a purpose to the scene.

ETA: it does seem like the show writers are different kinds of fanfic writers depending on the characters. With Regina, it's the Mary Sue who they just want to be happy. With Hook and Emma, it's all about the angst, with dashes of H/C (though she heals him rather than the usual comfort).

Edited June 1, 2016 by Shanna Marie
Hitting "post" proved inspirational

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

There was no plot purpose to the scene of them talking about how they were soulmates, no conflict, and since they never brought up any potential conflict between them because of Regina having been the one to separate him from Marian, it didn't even work as foreshadowing. Has any other couple on the show had that kind of scene? 

Well, he did talk about Marian in that scene and said, "I would have walked through hell to be with my Marian again," so I would count that as foreshadowing. The scene was trying to establish that Outlaw Queen was getting pretty steamy and romantic right before the fall.

[Camera One]

Too bad the Writers didn't have Robin show it.

"I would have walked through hell to be with my Marian again,"

He ended up walking through hell for a lot less.

[sharky]

Did he even walk in Hell? I thought the writers had no clue what to do with him so they shoved him into a off-screen corner until it was time to kill him. Maybe if they had him actually doing things, we would've felt something when he died. 

[Faemonic]

2 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I think a lot of the Hook and Emma stuff in season 4 worked well that way -- them looking at the box of treasures was a nice character and relationship moment that told us a lot about them and how they interact, but it led into a big plot revelation, so there was a purpose to the scene.

My fave was Hook having her look at the waterscape before bringing up her increasingly rocky relationship with Snowing. It could have been conducted on the walk to Mr. or Mademoiselle Magic-the-Thing for reasons, but no this was downtime. And Emma's emotional journey and relationships were the plot, in a way, so.

it does seem like the show writers are different kinds of fanfic writers depending on the characters. With Regina, it's the Mary Sue who they just want to be happy. With Hook and Emma, it's all about the angst, with dashes of H/C (though she heals him rather than the usual comfort).

The article did seem to mostly suggest that audiences shouldn't interfere with artists because audiences don't know what they need, we only know what we want, whereas it is the job of artists to give us the stories we need (psychologically and emotionally) even if we don't like it. 

 

Surely we've witnessed enough vitriolic vapidity to get where that's coming from? With this show, these writers, and this fandom though I'm not sure if the evident decay of creative integrity can be blamed on fanservice or Executive meddling...if fanficcy genres really are the way these professionals write.

[Camera One]

Quote

Did he even walk in Hell? I thought the writers had no clue what to do with him so they shoved him into a off-screen corner until it was time to kill him

The Writers sent him to the Forest with the Baby where they would be supposedly safe from Hades, even though Hades was the ruler of the Underworld and I highly doubt you could escape him by hiding in the forest.  The Writers seem to spend so little energy on coming up with plausible explanations.  In the entire room of writers, no one realized that was a nonsensical way of keeping Robin Hood occupied off-screen?  Robin Hood might as well have come into town later with Belle and Zelena... I don't recall him doing anything of significance even prior to that.

Quote

The article did seem to mostly suggest that audiences shouldn't interfere with artists because audiences don't know what they need, we only know what we want, whereas it is the job of artists to give us the stories we need (psychologically and emotionally) even if we don't like it.

There is the belief in some that Writers should write the story *they* want to tell, and fans who don't like it should just tune out.   I am curious how much of the writing on this show is pandering to various fandoms, and how much of the writing is the story they want to tell.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Camera One

[Curio]

48 minutes ago, Camera One said:

Robin Hood might as well have come into town later with Belle and Zelena... I don't recall him doing anything of significance even prior to that.

Agreed. Robin should have never come to the Underworld in the first place if the writers weren't going to give him any significant story lines. He was essentially a nonentity. But it would have made a lot more sense if he stayed behind to look after his newborn daughter and he could have even looked after Snowflake until Snow returned. Robin not following the gang to the Underworld also creates some more interesting dramatic elements:

• Regina's decision to leave Robin alone in Storybrooke would have been a much bigger sacrifice for her because they both know she has a lot more people in the Underworld who hate her. The writers obviously never did anything with those people because apparently it's "boring" to show Regina actually suffering because of her past victims, but at least she would have had to struggle between the decision to stay in Storybrooke with her boyfriend and not face her victims or take a heroic step by leaving her boyfriend and potentially seeing some Percival types. By having Robin by her side, it makes her decision a lot easier because he's her #1 cheerleader and she wouldn't have to be physically separated from him.
• Regina's decision to stay in the Underworld, even after Cora begged her to leave, would have been a lot more tempting. Forcing Regina to leave the gang didn't have as much weight to it because, again, Robin was right by her side. But if Cora was begging Regina to go back to Storybrooke where Robin was staying, Regina's decision to stay would have been a lot more heroic.
• Instead of the awkward plot where Belle was looking after the children in the nursery, Robin could have been the one looking after them and he could have been the one to see Zelena for the first time. He's the one who has more history with Zelena, not Belle. Honestly, if you just replace Belle for Robin in that scene, it would have been significantly more emotional and dramatic. It totally makes sense that Robin would do whatever it takes to make sure Zelena wouldn't take his child, so he could have gone through the portal instead of Belle. (She turned into a box anyways, so she really wasn't even necessary in the Underworld.)
• It would have been sadly ironic if Robin—the guy who decided to stay back from the Underworld trip because it was "too dangerous"—ultimately was the one destroyed by Hades. Robin missing a significant amount of time in the Underworld by skipping out on the first few episodes could have explained why he was so naive about sneaking up on Hades in "Last Rights."

I mean, they still probably would have made him go to the woods once he fell into the portal, but at least he wouldn't have been entirely unused.

[Shanna Marie]

2 hours ago, Camera One said:

There is the belief in some that Writers should write the story *they* want to tell, and fans who don't like it should just tune out.   I am curious how much of the writing on this show is pandering to various fandoms, and how much of the writing is the story they want to tell.

There's a really fine balance to strike (speaking as someone in a similar field). On the one hand, it's dangerous to entirely disregard feedback. On the other hand, Aesop had a point about not being able to please all the people all the time. There's also a difference between criticism and preferences, and a difference between being inspired by fan feedback and catering to the fans. If as a writer you're consistently getting criticism about a similar issue in your writing, it might be a good idea to listen. But when it comes to fan reaction, if you're catering to one faction, you're annoying another faction. They'll probably never make the Evil Regals and the Emma fans happy at the same time, and the desires of the SwanQueen faction and the CaptainSwan faction are mutually exclusive. However, fan feedback can inspire a writer. I doubt I'd ever change my mind about which main characters should be romantically involved if I've already planned relationships based on what fans say, but I have given a secondary character a bigger role when I got a surprising amount of e-mail mentioning liking this character. Hearing the nice things readers said about him made me more interested in him, and so I was inspired to do more with him. I wasn't doing it to please those fans, though, and I wouldn't have done it if I hadn't found it interesting. For all we know, that may be what's going on here. They heard positive feedback about Regina's tears, got excited that they'd made people sympathize with a villain, and were inspired to do it again some more.

2 hours ago, Faemonic said:

With this show, these writers, and this fandom though I'm not sure if the evident decay of creative integrity can be blamed on fanservice or Executive meddling...if fanficcy genres really are the way these professionals write.

Well, the premise of this series makes it essentially crossover fanfic. They're taking characters and situations from other sources, mashing them up and making new stories. So if you're writing fanfic, maybe it's easier to fall into fanfic tropes. On the other hand, tropes become tropes because they tend to work and people tend to like them, so using tropes can be a good way to please audiences.

[kitticup]

On a blog, I read someone made the argument that Last Rites should have been the finale.  That way the underworld arc could be better resolved.  We could have gotten more on the lost souls becoming sentient.  Someone on this forum suggested that Milah would have been one of the lost souls coming out of the river and helping Hook and Arthur.  I would have liked closure for her and Hook.  She could have walked into the light as soon as she helped but before the pages got added to the storybook.   

We could have seen Merlin helping Arthur.  Merlin damn well better be in the Underworld.  

The writers could have done a better job building up to robin's death.  We could see him with his son and daughter.  I agree he should have stayed in Storybrook. We would have time to see Regina actually react to his death.  Regina seemed strangely unmoved.  We could skip the whole NYC trip.  We could have had some characters, not sure which ones go to the land of untold stories and just introduced Hyde and Jekyll.  

It it would give A&E time to really think about the next arc and set it up right.

[Faemonic]

1 hour ago, Shanna Marie said:

 

Well, the premise of this series makes it essentially crossover fanfic. They're taking characters and situations from other sources, mashing them up and making new stories. So if you're writing fanfic, maybe it's easier to fall into fanfic tropes.

 

On the other hand, tropes become tropes because they tend to work and people tend to like them, so using tropes can be a good way to please audiences.

The balance between criticism and preferences is a difficult one, yes. Art and entertainment is so subjective, even valorizing economic success or narrative formula gets suspicious to use as a benchmark for what's good or what worked well. So, the most I can do is grumble something about emotional payoff and realize by now that this is not going to be that sort of show. The first season baited a lot of emotional investment, and there are even aspects of the Frozen arc and that one episode from the Camelot arc that I had to applaud unironically. But. But! But...bleargh.

[Curio]

6 hours ago, kitticup said:

The writers could have done a better job building up to Robin's death. We could see him with his son and daughter.

Did we seriously never get a single scene with Robin, Roland, and Pistachio all together on screen? That's a total manipulation tactic by the writers to make us forget they were killing off the dad of two young children.

[RedKeep]

And they cut the one scene with Robin and Roland they did film for his last episode - a happy father/son moment. I can't wrap my mind around that either. Or rather, I may I even understand what they were trying to do with that, but I just don't understand why anyone in the writers' room thought it was a good idea to kill Robin off like that when they had to employ so many obvious manipulation tactics from beginning to end. One would think those would work as severe warning signs that what you're about to do isn't organic storytelling at all and at the every least needs more revision/build-up. I'm used to Horowitz and Kitsis valuing plot over character by now, but Robin Hood's death is so mindboggling still because the plot they were forcing so hard is such a convoluted mess and she show gained nothing from it. Not even that brief emotional punch to the gut they may have been hoping for because it was nothing but unnecessarily cruel and very obviously very poorly constructed in writing. 

[Faemonic]

43 minutes ago, Curio said:

Did we seriously never get a single scene with Robin, Roland, and Pistachio all together on screen? That's a total manipulation tactic by the writers to make us forget they were killing off the dad of two young children.

It would have been more characteristic to show that so we miss Robin more...and in the next episode go sort of, "Babies? What babies? You mean Prince Neal II? Or the Rumbelle baby?" Like wee Willy Jones, unless that was addressed this season. 

[YaddaYadda]

11 hours ago, Camera One said:

The Writers sent him to the Forest with the Baby where they would be supposedly safe from Hades, even though Hades was the ruler of the Underworld and I highly doubt you could escape him by hiding in the forest.  The Writers seem to spend so little energy on coming up with plausible explanations.  In the entire room of writers, no one realized that was a nonsensical way of keeping Robin Hood occupied off-screen?  Robin Hood might as well have come into town later with Belle and Zelena... I don't recall him doing anything of significance even prior to that.

They didn't even let him save his own kid in 5x19. If Hook and David hadn't shown up when they did, Emma and Robin would have been food for lost souls, and the baby would have been gone. They didn't allow him to fight for his kid. 

Honestly though, Robin was a pretty messed up character from the word go. I still can't believe they inserted that scene in 5x03 between him and Hook where he's saying that he can't really express being happy about having a kid (even if they circumstances are shitty) because it will only hurt Regina.

It's like the more episodes went by, the more I couldn't with OQ or Robin. At least Belle can still assert herself in her relationship with Rumple when she snaps out of her daze. 

And there were so many missed opportunities of character interactions.

One of my favorite scenes in 5A was Belle and Hook talking in 5x02 when he went to her about the Dark One, and later when they shared a that drink. The writers are capable when they want to. 

They just don't want to.

Because boring.

Which it really isn't. Not to me at least.

1 hour ago, Curio said:

Did we seriously never get a single scene with Robin, Roland, and Pistachio all together on screen? That's a total manipulation tactic by the writers to make us forget they were killing off the dad of two young children.

The writers don't want that because they think we're borderline idiots, and don't recall that Robin has 2 kids. I thought it was funny (read sad) that Sean emphasized that in his exit interviews. 

Also, who made the decision that Roland should go back to Sherwood? Did Robin sit with Zelena, and tell her if something happens to me, please send my son back to Sherwood to be raised there by his real parent Little John? Because I'm pretty sure the relationship Zelena and Robin had was contemptuous at best, and I'm pretty sure he didn't tell her what his last living will was because he couldn't really stand her. So the whole I'm sure that's what Robin would have wanted had nothing to do with what he wanted, especially since Pistachio was the direct result of something he didn't want, like sex with someone who is batshit crazy, impersonating someone else.

[Rumsy4]

15 hours ago, Camera One said:

There is the belief in some that Writers should write the story *they* want to tell, and fans who don't like it should just tune out.   I am curious how much of the writing on this show is pandering to various fandoms, and how much of the writing is the story they want to tell.

In my opinion, Adam and Eddy are telling the story they want to tell for the most part. The few instances when they have caved in to meddling from execs (Frozen arc) or pressure from fans (the LGBTQ romance) are very obvious. I would also add the infamous "Breaking Glass" episode as an example of fan-service. In all these cases, the quality of the writing has either gone up or dipped lower than before.

Adam's placating fans on twitter is just that--placating them. I wouldn't say that they are never influenced by fan-reaction. That would be impossible for anyone, even if they may not intend it. But for better or worse, I really do think A&E are telling the story they want to tell. There are too many factions in the ONCE fandom for them to attempt to please.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Rumsy4

[andromeda331]

7 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

In my opinion, Adam and Eddy are telling the story they want to tell for the most part. The few instances when they have caved in to meddling from execs (Frozen arc) or pressure from fans (the LGBTQ romance) are very obvious. I would also add the infamous "Breaking Glass" episode as an example of fan-service. In all these cases, the quality of the writing has either gone up or dipped lower than before.

Adam's placating fans on twitter is just that--placating them. I wouldn't say that they are never influenced by fan-reaction. That would be impossible for anyone, even if they may not intend it. But for better or worse, I really do think A&E are telling the story they want to tell. There are too many factions in the ONCE fandom for them to attempt to please.

I do agree. They do seem to think their writing the story about the awesome Regina. They really seem to think their showing her as a badass, and that she really did struggle before being redeemed. They've done everything they really wanted to do with her. They wanted her to be the hero, and in their minds they made her a hero. They wanted to make her the star of the show,  in their minds they did. They really believe Regina has had it worse then anyone else on the show.  They really think their writing Regina the way they see her. They don't see that their not.

[Guest]

On ‎6‎/‎1‎/‎2016 at 9:16 PM, Camera One said:

There is the belief in some that Writers should write the story *they* want to tell, and fans who don't like it should just tune out.   I am curious how much of the writing on this show is pandering to various fandoms, and how much of the writing is the story they want to tell.

I've come to the conclusion that they don't have a story they want to tell anymore and are just dragging it out because its a job.

But then I find this show very odd in that given that it is based on fairy tales it should have a ton of inspiration to draw on and, for the life of me, I can't even speculate on what would make a good story anymore that fits within this shows modus operandi.  Its like they structured the show in a way that all the interesting stuff is off limits.

So I think that the show is pandering to the demographic not particular fandoms.  Based on season 1 and the original plan to kill Charming, I think that they probably wanted to go more down the path of twisted fairy tales and ended up with this needing to be a mostly kid friendly show.

I think that shallow characterization and plot driven stories are the result of being uninspired.  So yes, writers should tell the story they want but I think its several seasons too late for that.

They need a full reboot.

Edited June 3, 2016 by ParadoxLost

[Mari]

15 hours ago, ParadoxLost said:

I think that shallow characterization and plot driven stories are the result of being uninspired.  So yes, writers should tell the story they want but I think its several seasons too late for that.

They need a full reboot.

But, then, why didn't they take one of the many chances they've had to do a reboot and tell the story they wanted?  Times they could have include the magic reappearing, Pan's curse, destroying the curse and going to the EF, the first recurse, the second recurse, going to Underbrooke . . . 

I just dont don't understand why they're not making changes, if they're bored with the status quo and ratings are slipping any way.

[KingOfHearts]

Quote

I just dont don't understand why they're not making changes, if they're bored with the status quo and ratings are slipping any way.

Because they're not skilled enough to?