The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Rumsy4]

7 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I was so close to quitting entirely until the last two episodes of the season [2].

The same thing happened to me at the end of 2B, 3B, and 4B. I was close to quitting until the season finales pulled me back. That's why I like 5B more than any of the previous ones we got. 

[Rumsy4]

2 hours ago, Mathius said:

I honestly believe the "we like to switch things up to surprise people" explanation is BS.  A switch-up in the way Season 6 goes

Spoiler

(a potential slowed-down pace, quieter town stories, possibly no half-season arcs, dropped arcs resolved, the return of Bandit Snow and Action!Charming),

just so happening to come after ABC gets a new president, one who famously had the good sense to get A&E to spare Charming in the pilot?  I think A&E obviously can't come out and say it, but Channing Dungey most likely has actually come down on them to make these changes.

ABC is hurting badly, and if it wants Once, one of their more successful shows, to stay on the air longer, changes need to be made.

I do think the shake-up at the top brass of abc has had a hand in changes to the writing for 5B. It is quite possible that A&E were asked to cut down on the number of series regulars, considering how they wasted Will Scarlet in S4, and brought in TWO regulars for S5, while using them sparingly in 5A (one was mute and one barely had lines most of the time). Sean said in an interview that he found out about Robin's death just before the 100th part for OUAT, which was around the time Channing Dungey took over as head. It is also quite possible that Dungey hinted that the writers should bring Snow White back. Hence the one-the-nose dialogue about no more Mary Margaret in 5.13. All this ties in with the early announcement for the renewal of ONCE when compared with other shows in the abc line up. 

[Mathius]

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I do think the shake-up at the top brass of abc has had a hand in changes to the writing for 5B. It is quite possible that A&E were asked to cut down on the number of series regulars, considering how they wasted Will Scarlet in S4, and brought in TWO regulars for S5, while using them sparingly in 5A (one was mute and one barely had lines most of the time). Sean said in an interview that he found out about Robin's death just before the 100th part for OUAT, which was around the time Channing Dungey took over as head. It is also quite possible that Dungey hinted that the writers should bring Snow White back. Hence the one-the-nose dialogue about no more Mary Margaret in 5.13. All this ties in with the early announcement for the renewal of ONCE when compared with other shows in the abc line up. 

I agree.  While the news about the big shake-up broke in mid February, and the news about OUAT being renewed at the beginning of March, these things were going on behind the scenes well before that.  Sean said that he got the news of Robin's death in January and suspects that the decision was made because they found out Season 5 was not going to be their last after all, so A&E were almost certainly ensured about the show's renewal at that point and realized they needed to cut Sean loose so that they could bring the Evil Queen back.  This is also partially the new management's decision, I believe...the Evil Queen was a very popular character, her face is all over the marketing, she's a big draw...so it makes sense that if they want the show to gain back ratings, bringing the Evil Queen back would be a smart move for them to make.

EDIT: Yep, the shake-up was going on for basically the whole 2015-2016 season up until Paul Lee finally left and Channing Dungey took over, so how not just 5B but 5A as well has been written probably has a lot to do with that, particularly given that Dungey's boss (Ben Sherwood) is said to have had "direct communications with Lee’s staff and showrunners in a way that irked Lee".  So if you consider S5 to be better than S4, you can probably thank Ben Sherwood.  And if S6 turns out as good as A&E claim it will be, then you can probably thank Channing Dungey.

Also, another article says Sherwood favors procedural type shows over serialized ones.  Make of that what you will when it comes to OUAT.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Mathius

[maryle]

However, I asked myself if it is more pojection than fact, because they still have a big cast.
 Adding, I am not so sure that the EQ return is enough to bring back rating. because I believe when viewer are gone they are gone for good for the most of them. It can be a factor in keeping  the rating as it stand. To soon to know.  Some will love it, others will find it a repeat. Cannot forget that most of thing they hit for futur storyline usually last two episode max.
So, what season 6 will  really look like is anybody guess at this stade. I am sure people will complain about something.

[Camera One]

47 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I'm not concerned about S7 at this point. All I want is for A&E to get enough advance notice so they will have time to wrap up at least some of the major character arcs.

Taking this from the other thread.  I too hope that A&E get enough advance notice, if only because this will probably make them willing to *finally* give some time to the stuff they consider boring, from the original supporting characters like Archie, Grumpy, Blue, etc., to occasional guest stars like Cinderella, Aurora, Mulan, etc., to relationships they couldn't care less about like Emma/Snow/Charming.  Of course it won't be satisfying, but hopefully, we'll get at least some surface level token if they have a season fore-warning.  Maybe.  Better not hope for too much, though.

Knowing these Writers, I suspect the only planning they have for the final season is a certain ending for Regina, a certain ending for Rumple, and a final big "twist"/reset they have up their sleeves that they plan to use in the final season.  

Edited May 14, 2016 by Camera One

[TheGreenKnight]

23 hours ago, Mathius said:

EDIT: Yep, the shake-up was going on for basically the whole 2015-2016 season up until Paul Lee finally left and Channing Dungey took over, so how not just 5B but 5A as well has been written probably has a lot to do with that, particularly given that Dungey's boss (Ben Sherwood) is said to have had "direct communications with Lee’s staff and showrunners in a way that irked Lee".  So if you consider S5 to be better than S4, you can probably thank Ben Sherwood.  And if S6 turns out as good as A&E claim it will be, then you can probably thank Channing Dungey.

Also, another article says Sherwood favors procedural type shows over serialized ones.  Make of that what you will when it comes to OUAT.

I personally liked 5B, but I didn't really notice much change between this season's writing and the last two; and it's not as good as S3 or 4A, imo. But looking outside myself, it seems like I've only read complaining throughout 5B? Rumbelle and Regina running around in circles are pretty huge mistakes to me. Hopefully the people at the top won't interfere with the final season at least (or final arc if S6 ends up the last, which is unlikely).

[Mathius]

The change in management didn't officially happen until now, so any changes to this season's writing enforced by higher-ups wouldn't be all that big or drastic.  Just enough to make it a step-up from Season 4, where Adam and Eddy were clearly just running free with no restrictions and we got that damn Author plot as a result.  I hope that Channing Dungey being in charge now helps bring about some change to Season 6's style.

Edited May 15, 2016 by Mathius

[KingOfHearts]

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  Just enough to make it a step-up from Season 4, where Adam and Eddy were clearly just running free with no restrictions and we got that damn Author plot as a result.

You're right about that. 4B was A&E unhinged, much like 2B. You can tell they were being held back in S1 and 4A because of the drastic differences in writing style. Those two arcs were much more coherent and less like teenage boy fanfiction. (At least with Frozen in 4A's case.) On any other shows I would want the writers to have as much creative freedom as possible, but here I think they need a much tighter leash.

Edited May 15, 2016 by KingOfHearts

[Serena]

Ah, Once is probably one of the few shows where fans are like, "We need a bit more executive meddling up in here!" 

Everything I've heard about executives messing with Once has been for the better: no killing Charming, wouldn't boring-ass Henry scenes be better if you added Hook, you will NOT imply Regina and Elsa are both "misunderstood"... 

[maryle]

Funny, I rare my post but I did and I saw it mises half my thougt and as result was not reflected my mind. So, here goes the first part.

I agree with a lot of what's been said about the new management had some impact with bringing Snow White  (it is too soon  to really judge the execution.) I do love that A. and E are hitting at more Charming next year, maybe the Snowing and co. adventure is a proof of that. 2) the fall of Robin is consistent with that too.Adding, I looked for what people think of the final from outsider CS fandom and saw that there more people who already complain that I thought. Rumbelle are not please with the spoiler, some ER do not want the EQ back because it could mess with Regina redemption. Snonwing seem to looking for the Snowing adventure but not really nothing else. 

I was a little bit surprise usually people are overoptimist about their fans and complain after the episode air.  

Zut, other long post.

[maryle]

Ho! And it is funny that the writer are teasing Dorothy and Ruby to be back!  In the final Henry is with his girlfriend.  Is only relation outside his family.  For a show not about ship it seem it is the only thing consistent with it. 

[Mathius]

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4B was A&E unhinged, much like 2B. You can tell they were being held back in S1 and 4A because of the drastic differences in writing style. 

Oh yeah, I said "Season 4", though I really meant 4B and the stuff relating to it in 4A.  The Frozen stuff in 4A had Disney keeping them leashed.

[CTrent29]

I preferred Season 4B a lot more than I did 4A.  The problem is that A&E did a shoddy job in following up to what happened, because they decided to dump the Dark Swan and Underworld crap on the audiences.  Season 5 was a crapfest.  And I'm done with the show.

[Katherine]

In the Neal thread there was discussion about the writers' decision to periodically mention Neal in order to make his fans happy. It was pointed out that these mentions, including the decision to name Baby Snowflake Neal, probably do little to satisfy Neal fans. I'm a Hook fan, and if they killed off Hook, mentioning him from time to time would in no way pacify me. In fact, I probably wouldn't even be watching anymore, since Hook is the main reason I tune in. But I think this points to a bigger issue with the writers: they do care about pleasing, or at least pacifying, their fans, but they do so even when it conflicts with the story they're telling. Why did they feel the need to start a Save Hook arc with a scene between Emma and Neal? Part of it probably had to do with wanting to get MRJ back, even if they didn't have a clear role for him, but it was probably also about throwing a bone to Neal fans. But really, did Neal fans walk away satisfied from that? Maybe some did, but for most of them, it probably couldn't make up for the fact that Emma had just travelled to the underworld to save Hook.

This same thing happens with the Emma/Regina relationship. Adam and Eddy clearly care about the feedback of Swan Queen fans, but Swan Queen isn't the story they're telling. So instead, they created the Emma/Regina friendship to give these fans something. But the problem is that this friendship wasn't developed organically (IMO) and it often doesn't fit with the rest of the story and ends up being shoehorned in. Frankly, Adam and Eddy seem scared of their fans, and this prevents them from fully investing in any story. For example, an important part of 4A was Emma's fear about getting close to Hook and then losing him. This should've been a major part of the 4A finale. Instead, we got a 30 second Captain Swan scene, followed by Emma running off to have shots with Regina. The writers knew SQ fans hated the CS stuff, so they decided to put in a SQ moment when it really didn't fit. We also saw this in the 5A finale. Evil Regals were complaining about Hook having too much screen time, so their solution was to insert Regina into Hook's story, even though his story really should've been solely about him and Emma (and maybe Emma's family). 

I think we're seeing a similar problem with the Rumple character. It seems clear that Adam, Eddy, and RC himself prefer an evil version of Rumple. Personally, I preferred his story with Baelfire, but since that clearly isn't happening anymore, IMO they should just embrace the evil. The problem is that this breaks the hearts of Rumbelle fans, and Adam and Eddy still want their viewership. So what we get is an incoherent story about Rumple constantly wavering back and forth. In the same episode where he does something pretty unforgivable, we also get him crooning to a sleeping Belle. It doesn't make for a layered character; it makes for a confusing, unsympathetic one.

I guess it's nice that Adam and Eddy care enough about their fans to try to give them something, but in the end, all fan groups end up unhappy. Captain Swan fans are unhappy that Swan Queen gets inserted into their story (we're seeing this again with tonight's finale; the whole arc was about saving Hook and to end it, we get a random SQ adventure--where's the narrative logic?). Swan Queen fans are unhappy that they're not getting the relationship they want and that Captain Swan remains an important part of the story. Rumbelle fans are unhappy that Rumple is doing something evil (again). Neal fans are unhappy that Neal is dead. Outlaw Queen fans are unhappy that Robin Hood is dead. Swan Queen fans are still upset that Swan Queen isn't happening in a romantic sense. No one is fully satisfied and the story is suffering as a result. From a narrative point of view, inserting all these moments just doesn't make sense and it leads to choppy storytelling.

IMO, the writers need to go all in on their storylines, and stop trying to satisfy everyone. If Captain Swan is end game, then stop inserting Regina into their arcs. If the Swan Queen friendship is what the writers care more about, then show that in the writing, instead of inserting it in places that just makes it end up seeming like fan service. Neal is dead, so let him go. Let Rumple go full evil, and stop trying to give Rumbelle fans something to hold on to. Make bold choices and stand behind them. Some fans will be unhappy, but at least it will make for a more coherent, well-told story.

[Camera One]

That is really true, though it's more than that in terms of Regina/Emma.  Beyond placating SQ, it seems like A&E really do think that's a wonderful friendship.  Ditto for Regina/Snow.  They're forever boasting about these "unlikely friendships" that is only possible on this show.  

[Amerilla]

This conversation puts me in mind a Facebook post I see from time to time: a cartoon of a house-cat doing a "self-portrait" of himself as a lion. From all I've seen over the years, A&E are mangy, hacky house-cats that see themselves as storytelling "lions" who are creating a deep story about about love and loss and hope and redemption.  

Neal is a good example: I think A&E genuinely think that Neal was an important character who died a beautifully heroic death that left a tremendous void in his family. They've reinforced that view in every interview and panel discussion that has ever touched on the subject. 

Now, even as a Neal fan, I can tell you that the story was executed poorly from start to finish, that this "family" didn't exist in any tangible way and that his entire role within the story took place within a couple of weeks in the show's timeline, but that is not how they see it.

So when they name a kid after him and refer back to Neal in the script or the like and have him show up in a milestone episode like the 100th, it's because THEY see Neal as important. Has nothing to do with the fandom or checking off some sort of plot line box. All the whining by Neal-haters in the world is not going to change their opinion of his importance, any more than all the pleading by Neal-lovers in the world is going to convince them to bring him back. 

[Katherine]

I'm not necessarily saying Adam and Eddy don't see Neal as important. But I do think the way they've handled his death has more to do with the fans than with what they personally think of the character. I agree that they view him as a hero, but I think that in itself could also be tied to the fact that they know there are fans who were hurt by his death, so they want to be respectful of those fans. They knew his death would upset some people, so the least they could do was make it a heroic one (even if it ended up being poorly executed). I think if the character were truly important to them, then they would have treated him better and they wouldn't have been so quick to kill him off.

That being said, I do think some of the Neal mentions make sense for the story. He was certainly important in the lives of Henry, Emma, and Rumple, so of course those characters would keep mentioning him. But other things make less story sense, such as Snow and Charming naming their baby after a guy with whom they'd barely interacted. Those are the kinds of things I suspect are more for the fans. I could be mistaken, of course, but I get a distinct sense that A & E take fan reactions to heart, and base a lot of decisions on those reactions, even when they don't quite fit with the story they're telling.

And for the record, I'm not a Neal hater. I didn't like him with Emma, and I much preferred young Baelfire, but I think killing Neal was a mistake. One of my favorite parts of the show was Rumple's relationship with Bae, and I'll never forgive Adam and Eddy for squandering that potential.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

6 hours ago, Katherine said:

IMO, the writers need to go all in on their storylines, and stop trying to satisfy everyone.

I absolutely agree with you.  This is pretty ironic actually, because, basically what you just wrote is the moral to  - well, either an Aesop's fable, or  a story by a 13th-century Arab writer Ibn Said (depending on your source) -  The Man, The Boy, and The Donkey.  Ironic because this being a show about Fairy Tales and Fables and all, and yet,it seems that the writers and show runners haven't learned this basic life lesson: “PLEASE ALL, AND YOU WILL PLEASE NONE.” 

Edited May 16, 2016 by RulerofallIsurvey

[Camera One]

This just in from Adam:

Adam Horowitz ‏@AdamHorowitzLA  19 hours ago

@anka_savu I understand the heartbreak. But the fans haven't seen whole story we're telling. Hopefully there will be healing & catharsis

---

LOL!!!  I guess last night's episode was the cartharsis, because who wouldn't be purging their emotions after that finale.

“The paradigm for what season six will be is a little bit different than what we've done the last few years, and we're very excited by it. It involves our core group of characters, Storybrooke and flashing back to other realms,” Horowitz previews. “It doesn't necessarily mean a journey to someplace else.

How is this any different from 4B or 3B?  Way to spin nothing into something.

[Mathius]

I think he's hinting at the (new management-enforced) return to a full-season length arc ala Season 1 in which the heroes contend with the Evil Queen and Mr. Hyde in place of Mayor Mills and Mr. Gold, and the new characters from the Realm of Untold Stories being like all the cursed town characters from the first season, with flashbacks into their backstories and what makes them unfinished and needing to "play out".

Also probably overlaps with actual unfinished stories on this show, like Will/Anastasia and Maleficent/Lily.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Mathius

[daxx]

7 minutes ago, Mathius said:

I think he's hinting at the (new management-enforced) return to a full-season length arc ala Season 1 in which the heroes contend with the Evil Queen and Mr. Hyde in place of Mayor Mills and Mr. Gold, and the new characters from the Realm of Untold Stories being like all the cursed town characters from the first season, with flashbacks into their backstories and what makes them unfinished and needing to "play out".

Also probably overlaps with actual unfinished stories on this show, like Will/Anastasia and Maleficent/Lily.

This is what I'm thinking. If so I'm down with this. They actually had kitchen sink conversations between the main cast season one,

[RedKeep]

This isn't  new of course, but I think Adam should just stopping talking to fans altogether and stick to posting script teases and bts pictures if that's the best he can do. Because that tweet to an Outlaw Queen fan is just dumb beyond reason. The finale really drove the point home again that there was zero story/plot related reason why they killed off Robin Hood and in the particular cruel way they chose on top of it. They were done with the character, that's well within their rights even though I think it's not debatable that they handled his exit incredibly poorly, but stop trying to spin it into some elaborate, complex, character-driven story that made this death a necessity. Everything that happened in the finale on the overall plot level could have played out the exact same way with Robin Hood still in the picture. And "healing and catharsis" are nice words for "we don't know what to do with Regina, but we think the audience loves the EQ so we're just gonna tell the same story we used for her in season 4 with the added 'bonus' that you literally get her as two seperate charas now".

[Serena]

54 minutes ago, Camera One said:

LOL!!!  I guess last night's episode was the cartharsis, because who wouldn't be purging their emotions after that finale.

Just the emotions, if you're lucky.

[Curio]

Why are the writers so completely unoriginal whenever it comes to giving season-long story arcs to Regina? It's like they're blinded by their love of her character/actress that they don't realize her plot is totally predictable. Operation Mongoose? We all called Regina having to learn the painfully obvious lesson that she's in charge of her own happy ending, and taking a shortcut using the Author won't help things. Now we have Operation Evil Queen, and guess what? Regina will have to learn the painfully obvious lesson that she can't just ignore the bad parts of her personality and will have to live with both, and taking a Jekyll Juice shortcut won't help things.

I just don't get it. There are so many different routes they could take this show, yet they choose the most predictable one. At least with Dark Swan, we weren't able to guess right away how she would get rid of the curse, even though we knew they couldn't keep her like that forever. With the Underworld, we knew Hook wouldn't stay there forever, but they at least surprised us with Robin's death and the fact that Emma didn't save Hook, but rather Hook saved himself with the assistance of Zeus. With this upcoming Regina/Evil Queen Season 6 arc, there's literally no way this doesn't end with Regina chewing the scenery during the eleventh hour and embracing the Evil Queen back inside her, finally accepting that it's a part of who she is and she can't just sweep her past actions under the rug. I shouldn't be able to describe how the 6A finale will end half a year before it airs.

Edited May 16, 2016 by Curio

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Curio said:

With this upcoming Regina/Evil Queen Season 6 arc, there's literally no way this doesn't end with Regina chewing the scenery during the eleventh hour and embracing the Evil Queen back inside her, finally accepting that it's a part of who she is and she can't just sweep her past actions under the rug. I shouldn't be able to describe how the 6A finale will end half a year before it airs.

I'm sure Snow and Emma will be the ones taking the blame for it. Regina will be called the "savior" yet again for absorbing the Evil Queen back and saving everyone. 

[YaddaYadda]

8 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

I'm sure Snow and Emma will be the ones taking the blame for it. Regina will be called the "savior" yet again for absorbing the Evil Queen back and saving everyone. 

That goes without saying, I think. Snow and her quick fixes, so reminiscent of the whole let's suck the darkness out of evil fetus, and stuff it into someone else. Regina had the choice, and she serumed herself with Emma and Snow's support, so you know, just like Regina flips flops on her role in the mayhem she caused in her own life, I totally see her throwing that grenade right at Snow and Emma when the EQ shows up, and starts her reign of terror, or whatever.

[Camera One]

The fact that the Writers brought up AGAIN that Snow is partly responsible for Regina becoming the Evil Queen in the first place shows their mindset is still exactly the same.  And you can't be admonishing Emma for being worried about the Evil Queen coming out on the one hand, and then have Regina announce boldly and audaciously that she wanted to wring Hook's neck.  If that type of thought is STILL coming up in her mind, then she still has major psychological problems.  

And at the end of the day, this isn't even about Regina.  This is about A&E itching to write for The Evil Queen again.  

[TheGreenKnight]

15 hours ago, Mathius said:

I think he's hinting at the (new management-enforced) return to a full-season length arc ala Season 1 in which the heroes contend with the Evil Queen and Mr. Hyde in place of Mayor Mills and Mr. Gold, and the new characters from the Realm of Untold Stories being like all the cursed town characters from the first season, with flashbacks into their backstories and what makes them unfinished and needing to "play out".

Also probably overlaps with actual unfinished stories on this show, like Will/Anastasia and Maleficent/Lily.

Man, I really hope this mess doesn't take over the entire season. I'm sick of the new management already. Why don't they just let the show do its own thing for its last season or two without meddling, jeez.

[Mathius]

Because the show doing its own thing has been losing viewers at an alarming rate?

[TheGreenKnight]

The show's going down in a year or two regardless. Nothing they're going to do can stop that. And ultimately the show has lasted 6 seasons. Whatever you or I think of the writers, I think they deserve to end the show whatever way they want.

And more selfishly, everything about 6A sounds awful, where the half-season system at least leaves the opportunity I might like 6B.

[maryle]

Actually, I find the steadynnes of both this have is the only reason I am still optimist the writer could have their season 7. I believe Once floor is betweem 1.1 and 1.2 now. They most keep it that way troughtout next season to pas season 6.  

Only something like Frozen could regain a big jump in the rating. All I see is a wish to play safe next season and hoping the loyal fans reman. So, the big moment for CS will be next, EQ will be back and Rumbelle is not finish. Adam was defensive with CS yesterday saying they do not know what 6 will be like. They also annonced more old guest and new one. 

[YaddaYadda]

I just realized how vastly different the season finale would have been from what we got had they sent the guys from Camelot back like they were supposed to in 5x11.

They would have had to come up with a different partner for Hook in his quest for the book pages in 5x21.

There may or may not have been a portal in 5x22, Violet wouldn't have been there to see the "Holy Grail", the title "Only You" for the episode would have been different because no Violet...

[Curio]

I really want to know what their original plan was for the finale, because it surely must have been better than the mess we got on Sunday night.

[Camera One]

They probably didn't have one, except the Evil Queen was going to come back by the end of the very end of a convoluted 2-hour finale.  They could have created an accidental portal in any number of ways.  Hades' crystal could have opened up a portal to Steampunk World and the same people fall in.

[Souris]

Adam says they've hired two new writers.

Wonder if they've let any go like they did with Kalinda Vazquez.

[BoPeeps]

This show succeeds in spite of the piss poor story telling.  It has reached a point of total disrespect for the characters and the viewers.  Looking for common sense, cohesiveness and intelligent plot is pointless.

A&E aren't particularly smart closers.  Their strength lies in choosing appealing actors who have heavy duty followings.  But there will come a time when even the loyal afficionados will be bored senseless with repetitious scenes and " Deja vu all over again" plot lines.  At best it is lazy.  At worst it is insulting.

The Steampunk world concept is totally attractive but I doubt their budget allows much else to happen in this realm.  If they can wise up and use their solid core players to combat/help/save Storybrooke from the Captain Nemos/ Don Quixotes/etc. that this creep Hyde has brought with him it could create a whole new outlook.  But their history as writers makes me keep my expectations ground level low.

I think the separate evil queen will be a huge detriment to the potential for unique adventures.

[Kktjones]

I've seen a few posts on both Tumblr and here bring up the fact that A&E seem to focus on the Emma/Regina relationship (vs. the Emma/Hook relationship) in the scripts they write. On Tumblr one poster shot that down by posting examples of all the great CaptainSwan moments they've written. It does have me thinking, however, that while they may be good at writing "moments" for Emma/Hook, their episodes do have kind of a baity fixation on Emma/Regina. To me it really started with Season 4 - here's a list of the episodes they have written the last two seasons:

4x01: Saw Emma ditching Hook after telling him to "be patient" and having the Frozen conversation with Regina through the wall

4x07: I don't recall there being much of either relationship in this one

4x11: Gave Emma and Hook all of :26 before she ran off to do shots with BFF and sign up for Operation Stupid

4x12: Had a nice shot of Emma/Hook in the opening montage and at Granny in the end, but they were separated for most of the ep while Emma brought Regina lunch, gave her all the credit for freeing the fairies, and fought the Chernabog with her.

4x21/4x22: This was kind of a mishmash, but in the end Emma told Hook she loved him, while taking on the Darkness to save Regina's happy ending (that she worked so hard for).

5x01: Positioned Hook and Regina as the two fighting hardest to get to Emma. Had Hook talk Emma down from killing Merida, but had her hand over the dagger to Regina in a show of faith.

5x05: Hook and Emma didn't really share any scenes in this episode. So one episode after he helped her banish Mind!Rumple with a romantic horseback ride and kiss in a field of flowers, he's completely missing here as Emma is suddenly ripping out hearts. She and Regina bond as she witnesses Regina relive Daniel's death. They re-create the scene from the pilot on Regina's front porch.

5x11: Emma asks Regina to keep her promise and destroy her if necessary. All CS interactions are extremely negative until the very end scene which is heartbreaking. This ep also strangely inserted (or should I say shoehorned) Regina into Hook's flashback. 

5x12: All about Regina, no Hook. Also very little Regina/Emma.

5x23: I can't recall which NYC scenes take place in this ep, but very little payoff on the CS angst of the season (at least IMO).

Anyway, looking at that, I wonder if they really don't prefer writing Emma/Regina vs. Emma/Hook. Of course if you go back to Season 3 - they wrote the S3 finale which seems to contradict that, so not sure what to think. Anyone else have thoughts?

[RadioGirl27]

I don't think they have a preference, other than to write for Regina as much as possible. But since the beginning of Season 4, the baiting of the SQ shippers have been strong. Up until then, Emma and Regina were just reluctant allies and co-parents to Henry, and the relationship the writers seemed really invested on was Regina/Snow. But after the After Ellen debacle things changed and suddenly Emma and Regina were BFF. The Emma/Regina "friendship" is terribly forced and it rests on Emma acting OOC. 

[Mathius]

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Of course if you go back to Season 3 - they wrote the S3 finale which seems to contradict that, so not sure what to think. Anyone else have thoughts?

That was before Emma and Hook officially entered a relationship.  A&E know jack-shit about writing actual couples in actual relationships because they think it's "boring", so of course they're going to write as minimal CS as possible once they're an actual item.

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But since the beginning of Season 4, the baiting of the SQ shippers have been strong. Up until then, Emma and Regina were just reluctant allies and co-parents to Henry, and the relationship the writers seemed really invested on was Regina/Snow. But after the After Ellen debacle things changed and suddenly Emma and Regina were BFF. The Emma/Regina "friendship" is terribly forced and it rests on Emma acting OOC. 

Yeah, this.  They could be considered friends by Season 3, but the friendship was nowhere near the "BFF" level, it was one where the two respected each other and empathized with one another to a degree, but that's it.  Neither one would get overemotional about the other or put their personal life on hold to help the other.  Realistically, once Regina started blaming Emma for the Marian situation, Emma would just hold firm to what she was doing in 4x03 (distancing herself from Regina, while standing up for herself when Regina took a shot at her - "I think you're bitter and taking it out on the wrong person".)  But no, then 4x05 came along and suddenly Regina being her friend was some great desire of Emma's that she wouldn't give up on, even if it meant letting Regina walk all over her.  And there are some people who says she's OOC with Hook?

Edited May 17, 2016 by Mathius

[Kktjones]

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13 minutes ago, RadioGirl27 said:

But after the After Ellen debacle things changed

I wasn't too deep into the fandom at this time. Can you refresh my memory on what happened here? IIRC Lana gave them an interview, but JMo didn't and they were up in arms about it. I don't recall how A&E were involved...

[Curio]

56 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

Anyway, looking at that, I wonder if they really don't prefer writing Emma/Regina vs. Emma/Hook.

I think what stands out in Adam & Eddy's scripts is their tendency to drop Hook's resolution to an arc in favor of pushing a Regina-centric plot. Season 3 wasn't too bad with this, but for me, it all started with the Season 3 finale. While those two episodes remain my favorite of the series, the final minutes started a precedent that they haven't been able to shake off.

• The end of Season 3's finale saw Hook abruptly giving Emma a SparkNotes version of his magical bean adventure instead of having a full episode flashback. The reason for his shortened speech? Emma had to run off and introduce Zarian to Regina, thus beginning Regina's Season 4 plot.
• The end of Season 4's premiere saw Emma drawing away from Hook and their relationship. The immediate scene after that was the the doorway scene where Emma told Regina she would fight for her happy ending. Whose happy ending is ignored in this scenario? Hook. Whose plot is forwarded? Regina's Operation Mongoose plot.
• The end of Season 4A's finale saw Emma abruptly shoving Hook's heart back in his chest and running off to go have drinks with Regina, thus officially beginning Operation Dumbass.
• The start of Season 4B saw Emma ditching Hook and going on a road trip to kill the Chernabog with Regina. Apparently they became BFFs off screen during the hiatus, and it was more important to show Emma giving Regina root beer than it was to resolve Hook's heart plot. 
• 4B's finale had Emma realize she never told Hook she loved him before he died, so she teams up with Regina for two hours to make things right. When she finally gets Hook back, they get a quick scene where she can't say "I love you," and then she promptly sacrifices herself to save Regina from the darkness cloud, thus starting a new arc.
• Season 5A's premiere shows Hook being rash about trying to get to Camelot, and Regina shows him up by somehow miraculously knowing where Emma's baby blanket it. This is done to introduce Regina's the-town-needs-to-accept-me-as-savior plot.
• Season 5A's finale awkwardly shoves Regina into Hook's backstory, even though it doesn't make much sense for her to be there.
• Season 5B's premiere shows 2 seconds of Hook and gives Regina the 100th episode milestone.
• Season 5B's finale shows Emma ditching a newly-risen-from-the-dead Hook again in favor of sucking up to Regina's feelings and going on a road trip. This begins Season 6's story arc.

These are all Adam & Eddy's specific episodes. If anything, this is more of a Regina vs. Hook preference, not a Emma/Regina vs. Emma/Hook debate. Numerous times, Hook should have gotten some proper resolution to his storylines, but Adam & Eddy get bored and want to begin their new Regina chapter and cut his story off too soon.

[Mari]

I have that quote saved on my computer, but am not at home.  How does it go again?  Something about how you can't tell every story, so some sacrifices are made so that Regina's can be told.  

[Curio]

"It's just, you know, there's just so many...there's just so many people that it's like, it's sometimes hard to do that story and sacrifice Regina's story."

[Serena]

49 minutes ago, Kktjones said:

I wasn't too deep into the fandom at this time. Can you refresh my memory on what happened here? IIRC Lana gave them an interview, but JMo didn't and they were up in arms about it. I don't recall how A&E were involved...

AfterEllen ran a poll, I think it was a MarchMadness "What's your favourite femslash couple?" poll, which SwanQueen won. The site promised an interview with the winner (I think they possibly promised they'd try to get an interview with the winner?) but, honestly, they're a small potatoes website and JMo's publicist said no. Lana's said yes and she gave the interview. SQers freaked out, called JMo an homophobe, their usual stuff. JMo was like "IDK what the hell you guys are talking about. AfterEllen? I'm friends with Ellen, we play poker together, of course I would say yes if she wanted to interview me." AfterEllen, despite being named after her, actually has nothing to do with Ellen DeGeneres... but JMo did appear on the Ellen Show! They talked about cabbage, if I remember correctly.

A&E weren't involved except for people whining to Adam about it on Twitter. They did give AE an interview this year - it was kind of a disaster.

Edited May 17, 2016 by Serena

[Rumsy4]

8 hours ago, Curio said:

"It's just, you know, there's just so many...there's just so many people that it's like, it's sometimes hard to do that story and sacrifice Regina's story."

Classic.

[Katherine]

22 hours ago, Curio said:

I think what stands out in Adam & Eddy's scripts is their tendency to drop Hook's resolution to an arc in favor of pushing a Regina-centric plot. Season 3 wasn't too bad with this, but for me, it all started with the Season 3 finale. While those two episodes remain my favorite of the series, the final minutes started a precedent that they haven't been able to shake off.

These are all Adam & Eddy's specific episodes. If anything, this is more of a Regina vs. Hook preference, not a Emma/Regina vs. Emma/Hook debate. Numerous times, Hook should have gotten some proper resolution to his storylines, but Adam & Eddy get bored and want to begin their new Regina chapter and cut his story off too soon.

This is a really good point. I noticed a pattern of them inserting Regina into Captain Swan arcs but I hadn't realized it was so specific to episodes written by Adam and Eddy. I agree that they love the character of Regina, but I also can't help but think it has a lot to do with vocal fans on Twitter. I don't know about Eddy, but I know Adam is pretty preoccupied with those fans. And when the criticisms are all about Once Upon a Hook, Captain Rapist, homophobia, a lack of strong female characters, and not enough screen time for Regina, I can see why Adam takes them to heart (except the Regina screen time one; I don't see how any fans can make that particular argument when Regina had both the 100th episode and the season finale devoted to her).

But I do think Adam and Eddy like Hook, and they know he has a big fan base too, so their solution becomes "let's insert Regina into Hook's stories; then both sides of the fandom get what they want". It just doesn't end up working. I really keep coming back to the idea that they're scared of their fans. And while I completely understand wanting to be sensitive to a lack of LGBT representation, as well as wanting to depict strong female characters, a lot of fans' criticism has more to do with wanting their favorite character or pairing to get more attention. Again, that's fair enough, but the problem is when Adam and Eddy start sacrificing the quality of the writing to accommodate everyone's wishes.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Katherine

[Shanna Marie]

I mentioned this in the Small Talk thread, but apparently A&E are very thin-skinned. At a party last week I ended up talking to a TV critic who covers this show. She used to cover House and got to know JMo there, then followed her to this show, interviewed her, and through her got to know Jane Espenson and also did interviews with A&E. Then at one point she tried to get an interview with them and was denied, and then she got in touch with Jane, who said she could talk to her about other stuff but couldn't talk to her about the show. Apparently, they considered her to have "trashed" the show when she wrote about how the characterization was going flat, specifically Rumple going from being fairly layered to just being a jerk. That might explain how weirdly bland or rah-rah the media coverage is, if you get blacklisted for anything critical.

And if they're that thin-skinned, it could explain why they seem to try to appease all the factions, all at once. Though it is weird that they go all "La la, not listening because you're just a mean bully" to professional critics while bending over to appease factions of loud, angry fans who are true bullies. Besides, their appeasement isn't giving anyone anything they want. Giving Regina and Emma scenes together while keeping Emma with a boyfriend and giving her those romantic scenes isn't improving LGBT representation. Playing with subtext for a fanon relationship that will never happen on screen isn't representation. Having a woman totally melt down and threaten to go evil every time she loses her boyfriend isn't showing a strong female character. Having a woman think her otherwise perfect life is like living under a curse because she doesn't have a boyfriend isn't strong, either.

[Rumsy4]

17 minutes ago, Shanna Marie said:

Having a woman totally melt down and threaten to go evil every time she loses her boyfriend isn't showing a strong female character. Having a woman think her otherwise perfect life is like living under a curse because she doesn't have a boyfriend isn't strong, either.

Every time Regina loses a lover, she falls apart (Daniel, Robin (x2)). She lacks resilience, and yet in 3B the writers wanted us to believe she has the most resilient heart. In recent interviews, Lana and A&E have condescendingly commented that it would take more than "losing a boyfriend" for Regina to go evil. They want to downplay Robin's importance in Regina's life in interviews becasue they're afraid of the "weak female" label. But that's not what they keep showing us on-screen. It's a mess.

Edited May 18, 2016 by Rumsy4

[InsertWordHere]

3 minutes ago, Rumsy4 said:

Every time Regina loses a lover, she falls apart (Daniel, Robin (x2)).

She also took her heart out and buried it when she lost Henry, then tried to put herself under the sleeping curse. Probably a week after she got him back through a TLK, she told him she didn't want to see him, hid in her house, and sent him crow messages instead of talking to him. Even without the added dimension of backsliding into evil, she's weak. 

[Camera One]

3 hours ago, Shanna Marie said:

I mentioned this in the Small Talk thread, but apparently A&E are very thin-skinned. At a party last week I ended up talking to a TV critic who covers this show. She used to cover House and got to know JMo there, then followed her to this show, interviewed her, and through her got to know Jane Espenson and also did interviews with A&E. Then at one point she tried to get an interview with them and was denied, and then she got in touch with Jane, who said she could talk to her about other stuff but couldn't talk to her about the show. Apparently, they considered her to have "trashed" the show when she wrote about how the characterization was going flat, specifically Rumple going from being fairly layered to just being a jerk. That might explain how weirdly bland or rah-rah the media coverage is, if you get blacklisted for anything critical.

And if they're that thin-skinned, it could explain why they seem to try to appease all the factions, all at once. Though it is weird that they go all "La la, not listening because you're just a mean bully" to professional critics while bending over to appease factions of loud, angry fans who are true bullies. 

That is really unfortunate, because the point about characterization would have been constructive criticism.  If anything, Rumple's characterization has gotten even worse since then.  

In many ways, catering to specific fandoms is easier than actually addressing measured criticism about the show.  It's easy for them to divvy up a season and do an Emma/Regina roadtrip to placate the SQ'ers, and then a date-in-a-field-of-flowers episode for the CS'ers, etc.  Of course, that doesn't make everyone happy all the time, but it makes some happy sometimes.  But these fandom demands also have to align with A&E's own preferences, since we have never seen them feel the need to give an entire episode to Emma/parents, for example.

It's so much harder to actually address stuff like worldbuilding, or character development, or inconsistencies. Basically the stuff we analyze on this forum, for the most part.  This would not be something they would want to read or act upon.  It just seems so petty to blacklist someone who is just reviewing the show.  Since when did news article have to = advertisement.

Edited May 19, 2016 by Camera One