The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Mitch]

I assumed he meant more fighting to have them be friends or at least have scenes together, which is something I am willing to believe there is conflict over. I can buy that there are writers who want to see Regina working with the show's main protagonist, and those who think Regina is more fun when she dislikes and constantly snarks at the show's main protagonist (and maybe those who think Regina has done too much damage to the show's main protagonist for them to ever be friends, but sadly I doubt that).

 

I think your right about that.  IMO, Emma and Regina have the most intereseting dynamic on the show, and no not in a lover type thing..(though I am sorry, Hook/Emma fans...the actresses both have more chemistry with each other then they do with their on screen romances, but that does not a gay romance storyline make.) Even with that, I HATED the Regina/Emma episode this season. That is NOT their dynamic..Regina blows Emma shit and Emma blows it right back and calls her on it, and strangely, Regina kind of respects Emma. While I hated Neverland I think they got the dynamic right there, (not to mention a realistic semi-redeemed Regina..) both of them pushing and pulling to be the Alpha woman and relying on each other as the both snap at each other.  Unfortunatley someone up thread had it right, the writers are too enamored with their cartoony Evil Queen to ever let Regina settle into that good character groove she had in Neverland. I think that is what JE is pushing for..."Who is Regina now, and what is Regina and Emma's relationship." Adam and Eddy are two ADD to do that.

[jhlipton]

Let's get into all of this, show, because that's where the real drama is. I don't need a new threat every eleven episodes to keep me interested. Emotional payoff of previous plot points is just as important as driving the story forward.

The best shows (see SH and B99 below) do this.

 

Jane Espenson mentioned on Twitter last night again that they do have the giant timeline on the wall.

This makes it super-frustrating. “ Yeah, we have this tool, but we’re never going to use it…” Why not?????

 

they also know that each episode is going to be roughly 40 minutes, so why not write for closer to that mark?.

Because you can’t tell exactly how long a scene will take. Let’s forget about CGI, SFX and all that stuff. You might write a scene that’s 5 minutes long. But in rehearsal, the “beats” require it to be 15 minutes. So 5 minutes will have be cut elsewhere.

 

Care to definie "emotional pay-off"? It seems very vague and subjective.

Sleepy Hollow has its problems (Katrina) but Abbie and Ichabod talk about their trust issues. Even better are the scenes between Abbie and her sister Jenny. When they reconcile, it was earned because they worked through their issues.

Heck, even Brooklyn 99 builds on its history and have the characters evolve.

 

I'm not even saying the show needs to punish Regina for her crime now, mainly because it's Season 4 and most of the audience has moved on from that plot.

Yep. I tweeted about that, and one of the “OutlawQueen”said (in essence) “It’s Season 4. Get over it!” I guess the statute of limitations for rape and murder on OUAT are pretty damn short.

Also, “she saved the town! Twice!!!” [Chris Rock] “”What do you want, a cookie?!” [/Chris Rock]

 

there's the whole thing where about 85% of the time Regina hates Emma

And Emma should hate Regina.

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm not even saying the show needs to punish Regina for her crime now, mainly because it's Season 4 and most of the audience has moved on from that plot.

I agree with this, but by the other side of the coin, Regina should be redeemed by now. If the plot is supposed to be moved on from her reign of terror, she as a character needs to move on too. She can't keep helpless genies locked up in asylums, and she can't be threatening to go back in time to kill her boyfriend's wife. Punishing her won't help, but flip-flopping doesn't either. If the writers set out to redeem her all the way back in 2A, they need to finish their work already. It shouldn't be her character's "go-to" arc. That's two-dimensional thinking. Surely she can do more than cry and bully everyone.

 

Gray characters aren't whitewashed and portrayed as "heroes". 

Edited December 6, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[Camera One]

She can't keep helpless genies locked up in asylums, and she can't be threatening to go back in time to kill her boyfriend's wife. Punishing her won't help, but flip-flopping doesn't either.

 

And the writers actually flipflopped her in a single episode (the Season 4 premiere), no doubt since it was part of the cliffhanger teasing whether this latest setback will make Regina turn into the Evil Queen again.  They probably see this as being really deep, since Regina is working against reverting, but I think it's problematic when she reverts all the way back to Level 1 and then jumps immediately back to whatever level of redemption she's supposed to be at now.  

 

And you just know part of the motivation for the Shattered Sight, is so they can have the bold and audacious Evil Queen personae show up again, as well as having "fun" with "good" characters like Snow, Charming, Henry, Kristoff, Granny, Grumpy, etc. hurling insults at one another.  It's another illustration of the idiotic point that none of them are that far off from village-and-mute-maid-murdering psychos.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm not even saying the show needs to punish Regina for her crime now, mainly because it's Season 4 and most of the audience has moved on from that plot.

If they don't want to deal with it, then they should quit bringing it up. It hasn't actually been four years since we saw her that way, since we keep seeing it in flashbacks and being reminded (one blessing of the Frozen arc has been that there have been no Evil Queen flashbacks, aside from her mirror reminder vision). It's only been a couple of years for the characters, and even they keep being reminded. No more than a couple of weeks ago (in Storybrooke time), Emma saw Regina terrorize Marian and order her thrown in the dungeon, then she herself was taken prisoner by Regina, interrogated and thrown in the dungeon, and they were both on the brink of execution when they escaped, then Emma watched Regina execute her mother (and Snow only escaped due to her own cleverness, not to any softening on Regina's part). You'd think that would have reopened any wounds that had started to heal and opened a whole new set of them. But instead they have her return and that very same day insist on introducing Marian to Regina and then days later beg Regina to be her friend. Meanwhile, they keep bringing up stuff like Graham's death, Sydney's imprisonment and the way Regina messed with Snow and David during the curse.

 

How do you get over it when they keep reminding us and there are still no consequences?

[KingOfHearts]

 

If they don't want to deal with it, then they should quit bringing it up.

If they want to whitewash it, then they should actually... whitewash it. I'm fine with saying Regina's a different person now, and I can let all her atrocities go, but like you said they keep bringing it up. It's not just flashbacks, either - it's present day stuff. I'm even fine with Regina being gray and continuing to be somewhat evil, but the lip service has got to stop. "You're a hero!" "You've come so far!" This circles back to the show's insane morality, where you're either in Category A or B. Sometimes I'm not sure if the writers have this big Regina love affair, or they just flat out don't know what to do with her. I think it's both.

[Shanna Marie]

I'm even fine with Regina being gray and continuing to be somewhat evil, but the lip service has got to stop. "You're a hero!" "You've come so far!"

You know, a truly gray Regina would actually have been interesting and probably even easier to write than what they've got now. She might not be actively seeking revenge against Snow because Henry complicates the issue -- if she wants to win Henry's trust again, killing his mother and grandparents would be counterproductive -- and she might occasionally have to work with these people to deal with things that also threaten her, but she doesn't have to like them, and she can be snarky and cutting to them. Meanwhile, they know she's too powerful for them to really be able to hold her accountable for everything she's done and she is occasionally useful in dealing with threats, but they also don't like her, so they tolerate her and keep an eye on her. All it would really take is removing the excessive propping -- no "you're a hero!" no "let's be friends," no "I'm just as bad as you are because of the thing I did when you took away my identity and messed with my life so that I thought I was doing something wrong." And they might have to dial back on the sob story flashbacks. Otherwise, it wouldn't have to change much about the way Regina is written and portrayed, since she's such a catty bitch most of the time. Just think about how The Episode That Must Not Be Named could have gone if instead of trying to be friends with Regina, Emma had just been tolerating her in pursuit of the common goal of finding the Snow Queen. Instead of the groveling, let Emma be the same woman who took a chainsaw to the apple tree and let the two of them fight it out since Henry isn't there to watch and be upset. If they wrote Regina that way, they wouldn't be in the unsatisfying and difficult rock-and-a-hard-place dilemma they have now, where they can't have her be an ongoing true villain without her looking ineffectual for not being able to defeat her enemies but they don't want to really redeem her because she's less interesting when she's truly good. Let her be the early Cordelia on Buffy -- the one who will help in a crisis but who otherwise will tell them exactly what she thinks of them.

[FabulousTater]

If they want to whitewash it, then they should actually... whitewash it. I'm fine with saying Regina's a different person now, and I can let all her atrocities go

I'm not fine with it. I hate it. I want my damn pay-off. Pretending anything these villains do can be glossed over and whitewashed is crap, and disgusting to me. It's crap writing and it's crap storytelling. And it would be one thing where they continuously get away with it because they just don't get caught (because that's not unheard of), but what really rubs salt in the wounds here is that the "good guy" characters (and by extension the writers) pretend that it's no big deal. Regina kills Snows father, spends years hunting her down, tries to kill her husband, her daughter, tortures her and her family for years and what's the result? Snow White wants to be her The Evil Queen's best friend! Where the frick is the pay-off in that?!?! It's not even logical! And it's one thing if we could say, well Snow has psychological issues, but that's not how they play it. It's obscene is what it is. And they just keep taking it further and further with scenes like where Snow White tells Woegina  to go forth with that adulterous relationship (with the husband of the woman who actually died saving Snow from Regina herself) because who cares as long as Regina gets what she wants. And Snow's character is only one example of this ridiculousness. It's all 1000% flaming horse shit, and the writers can take it and shove it back up the hole it plopped down from.

 

IMO, classic fairy tales work and they carry-on throughout the centuries as stories because there's some damn pay-off. Villains get their comeuppance, idiots die by their own hand because they're too stupid too live, and no one calls any of them heroes. It's satisfying. And as a reader or viewer we get to walkaway feeling like "Yes, that was a good story that I wouldn't mind revisiting." And that satisfaction has nothing to do with things being simple or black and white. You can have gray characters but still have a satisfying story and some damn pay-off (See: Game of Thrones, Fringe, and countless other genre based shows).

 

But the writing for this show is the exact opposite. Even past season episodes that I'm "okay" with I don't want to rewatch because nothing about how this show is written is satisfying. The writing for this show is awful. There's no pay-off, there's no logic, there's no rhyme or reason. There's only bad people do bad things and getting rewarded for it and that isn't satisfying to me (because I'm not a murderer or rapist apologist, and I don't identify (or even remotely sympathize) with homicidal sociopaths, and I've never sat around thinking "Gee, after all those people Regina killed and all the murderous thoughts she still has, she deserves love." NO. That's just gross BS.) These horrible, villainous asswipes get to have their cake and to eat it too. The writers for this show take everything that in my opinion makes a good story and pisses on it and then sets it on fire for good measure.

 

(OT, but I think this is why Marvel movies are such a hit recently. 'Cause, look, bad guys get their asses deservedly handed to them. Imagine that. A satisfying pay-off! Who would've thunk it!)

Edited December 6, 2014 by FabulousTater

[KingOfHearts]

 

I'm not fine with it. I hate it. I want my damn pay-off. Pretending anything these villains do can be glossed over and whitewashed is crap, and disgusting to me. It's crap writing and it's crap storytelling.

Replying in Regina thread.

[Jean]

I'm not even saying the show needs to punish Regina for her crime now, mainly because it's Season 4 and most of the audience has moved on from that plot

I dare say most of the audience, except for maybe the Woegina fans?, have moved on from 10 year old Snow telling a secret plot too but 4 seasons on and soul sucker is still whining about it and the show continues to bring it up every other time Snow is onscreen. In show time it's been at least 40 years.

So I think it's a little disingenuous for the writers to "move on" to apply only to the black holes crimes but she's forever allowed to continue whining and crying about a broken nail, and whatever slight against her biggest victim is me self.

[Souris]

This isn't related to Once, but I hope it's OK to post here: Drama in The Newsroom writers' room.

 

I wonder how much discussion and disagreement goes on in the Once writers' room, or on other shows. It's extremely rare to hear dirty laundry aired like this.

[Serena]

I'm not gonna lie: while I think it's unprofessional to air dirty laundry in public like this, I'd give a fair amount of money for someone to record and leak what goes on at the Once writing room.

[Curio]

The whole arc of Henry working in Rumple's shop should have been significant in terms of developing a relationship between Rumple and Henry. And yet, they deleted the only meaningful scene between them where Rumple actually gave good advice to Henry and connected with him.

 

Yeah, that whole plot line was a waste of time this season. If something big happens because of Henry's involvement with the pawn shop in 4B, then I'll appreciate the writers' efforts to introduce it earlier in the season to help out the continuity a bit. But there've already been huge details about the pawn shop the writers have thrown in this season that needed to be addressed in 4A and not 4B. Who knows, maybe they'll still get to it, but there's still that doctored VHS tape of Hook, the fake dagger, and the voicemail on Emma's phone that were just ​begging to be found by Henry in the pawn shop. And considering Henry was absolutely no help in finding any info about Operation Mongoose or Rumple's ulterior motives, him working at the pawn shop was totally meaningless in 4A.

 

I'm also a bit upset that the writers haven't given us any more hints about what the hell Will is doing in town. I loved his character in Wonderland, and it's already been established that he had a missing heart for a while, so why not use that bit of characterization and make him realize what's going on with Hook? Again, they might address that in the finale, but I'm not holding my breath.

 

As usual, the writers establish these great plot/character nuggets and details in their writing, but they're either blind and don't see how they could easily connect to the current plot or they refuse to make meaningful connections between things. I don't know which option is worse.

Edited December 11, 2014 by Curio

[Camera One]

I'm sorry but these last two episodes really showed their weaknesses as writers.  

 

A normal writer might ask themselves something like, "Oh, how will we explain why Ingrid wouldn't tell Emma and Elsa about the threat that Rumple poses to them?" (considering how Rumple tried to suck Emma into the hat the episode before).  But it is as if this never even crossed the writers' minds. 

 

The weird communication or lackthereof between the various characters makes no sense.  In "Heroes and Villains", Anna acted like they could walk home if the ice wall was taken down.  Did she not express that erroneous thought as they were walking up to the Wall from Main Street?  Anna also never mentioned Hans taking over Arendelle.  But didn't Anna, Elsa and Emma take a long walk from the Ice Cave into town?  What exactly did they talk about?  Did Elsa not ask Anna why she was in a trunk at any point during that day?

 

And then there are characters suddenly appearing in the nick of time with no explanation how they knew to go there.  I'm sure this has been a recurring problem but it just seemed so much more blatant recently.  

Edited December 15, 2014 by Camera One

[Mari]

  But didn't Anna, Elsa and Emma take a long walk from the Ice Cave into town?  What exactly did they talk about?  

Chocolate.

[Serena]

Here's the thing about how terrible the writing was in the finale.

We had a lengthy scene between Rumbelle with finally a confrontation between them. That's fine. That's overdue. BUT they should have built up to it. Belle spent the last four episode literally asleep. The Hook story, however, was spotlighted in the last several episodes. BASIC WRITING RULES dictate that if you build and spotlight a story, leading up to the finale... YOU GIVE IT PAYOFF. 

Edited December 15, 2014 by Serena

[Curio]

This 3-month hiatus isn't some network-mandated break period because of scheduling and ratings, no no. It's officially the writers on time out for botching up what could have been a great ending to 4A. 

[HoodlumSheep]

Yeah, the writing wasn't so swell for this episode; they tried cram too many things into one episode.

[Shanna Marie]

This has to have been some of the worst writing I've ever seen from so-called professionals. I've heard of Jump the Shark moments that were because the event itself was just so ridiculous, but this may have been a case of cool stuff happening where the execution was the shark jumpage.

 

For one thing, there was a massive failure of Chekhov's Entire Freaking Arsenal. Yeah, the Chekhov's Gun thing can sometimes be used as a misdirect, so not every gun has to be fired, but look at the list of setups that were never paid off:

1. The fake dagger. Presumably Belle and the others now know there was a fake because Rumple was able to lie while Belle was supposedly forcing him to tell the truth, and I guess she knew where the fake was when the gauntlet led her to the real one. But we don't actually see anything of this. They've been teasing what would happen when Belle found out the dagger was a fake, and then we don't actually see her discover that he gave her a fake dagger.
2. The blackmail plot. Ended up being meaningless, since Rumple never used the blackmail to force Hook to do anything, Emma never heard Hook's voice mail confession, Hook's knowledge of what Rumple was doing never made a difference, and no one discovered the tape. It has zero repercussions.
3. The voice mail. Hook confesses all, sacrificing his potential future with Emma in order to save her life. She never hears the message.
4. Henry and the Shattered Sight spell. He doesn't seem to have said anything about Hook coming to get him.
5. Will and Hook. Also knows Hook was there after Henry. Doesn't seem to have talked to anyone. Then again, no one seems to have cared what Hook was doing during the spell.
6. Emma seems to figure out that something is going on with Hook. She notices something's off about his goodbye kiss, then she flat-out asks him and he manages to fight past the programming to give her as much of a signal as possible. This comes to nothing. Maybe it was a part of them figuring out what was going on with Rumple, but if it was, it happened entirely offscreen.
7. All that foreshadowing about Hook's possible death, all Emma's anxiety about losing her past loves. But then she finds him on the brink of death and we don't get to see even a slight moment of reaction. Even his reassurance that he's a survivor came out of the blue because she didn't seem to be all that worried about him.

[Souris]

Heh, Shanna Marie, I posted about Chekov's gun on tumblr! I would say monkeys with typewriters could've written this ep, but that would be an insult to monkeys everywhere. There were so many epic fails of basic storytelling in this ep and half-season, it's almost laughable. Almost, if it weren't so pathetic that these writers actually get put in charge of a major network show and paid big money for this storytelling trainwreck. Once Upon a Time: Where Logic and Emotion Go to Die.

[HeimrArnadalr]

Also, the Henry working for Gold subplot seems pointless now. Did it actually have any effect on anything? Gold even told how he 'achieved' his happy ending directly to Regina! It can't even be used in 4B now that Gold has no happy ending and is not in Storybrooke anymore.

 

But, at least it gave Henry some goal to pursue, even if we never really saw it. Will, on the other hand, just showed up and got into random altercations with people. I've heard his Wonderland story was good, but his presence in Storybrooke had no point to it. While he may have a more directed goal in 4B, I suspect that the 'Queens of Darkness' and Regina's romance woes will take up most of that.

[sharky]

I don't know if it's the writers so much as Adam and Eddy. This was a show they created and they made it a point to write this final episode before the hiatus. I wonder if it was a case of the editors thinking they didn't need editing since they were in charge. It's really a shame too. There was so much potential with the Frozen characters and Hook's heart and Rumbelle, and those did rise to the top. There were these flashes of brilliance last night in a sea of mediocrity.

 

I can't explain how amazing that scene was with Hook in the diner. I'm still thinking about it today. Well written, conveyed that something was wrong, and Colin was absolutely amazing at being Hook while carrying himself as if he was in fact possessed by Gold. Just amazing. But I feel like that had more to do with how the actor took control of the words and not the words themselves.

 

But I mean seriously, when the actor who had his heart ripped out does an interview in which he can barely explain the big-picture of it all and has to lean on an explanation from a producer, there are problems. I feel bad -- these actors are amazing. But the scripts are mush.

Edited December 15, 2014 by sharky

[Shanna Marie]

Oh yeah, the Henry working for Gold thing needs to go into Chekhov's Arsenal. I'd kind of forgotten because it was so pointless.

 

You know, this episode was of fanfic quality -- and by that I'm not saying that fanfic is automatically of poor quality, just that by its very nature, fanfic is self indulgent, since it's all about writing the stories you want to see in that universe. A fanfic writer isn't really bound by canon or by any promise implied or established by the showrunners about what the story is about. Fanfic writers can focus on their favorite characters and relationships and ignore or warp all other characters. They don't have to worry about plot or keeping things logical. It's in that sense that this is fanfic.

 

There was the really contrived nonsense around Robin and Regina that ate half the episode that seems straight out of angst puppy fanfic, in that it gave all the props to Regina while still giving her something to cry about so that she got to be both the hero and the victim -- Marian gives her blessing, Robin chooses Regina, and then there's some contrivance to force Regina to give him up. You can practically see the halo shimmering over her head.

 

Then everything else is hastily brushed past or skimmed over in a way that reminds me of long, multi-part fanfic stories where you can tell the author started out all ambitious about creating an epic plot and then either couldn't pull it all together at the end or just got bored with it and wanted to end the story so people would stop complaining about the story not being finished. It has that "and then they figured it out and saved the day, the end, no, don't ask me about those pesky details about exactly how they figured it out" quality to it. It's like "it's not about Regina, so I can't be bothered." Then instead of the emotional aftermath being about the people who were actually affected by that plot, like Hook (and Emma by connection) and Belle, it still comes back to Regina, with Emma comforting Regina about having to break up with her boyfriend rather than comforting either her own boyfriend who was just tortured and nearly killed or Belle, who saved the day and shoved the villain out of town. And then there's the whole plot that's about how Regina has been mistreated by the book that recorded her actual deeds and how she can get a happy ending (you know, other than by doing good stuff and dealing with life, like everyone else).

 

So basically, the creators of the show have given up on the premise of the show, all other characters, and all plot logic so they can write Regina fanfic.

[Souris]

I'm finding it a little ... interesting that the writers have been conspicuously silent about the ep since last night, just one or two stray pointless comments. It could be complete coincidence and simply pre-hiatus, holiday busy-ness, but I have this little fantasy of a frenzy of damage control and "We fucked up, how can we fix this?" being done in the offices after the fan reaction and ratings came in. "Ben Sherwood on Line 1! Paul Lee on Line 2! Walt Disney's ghost on Line 3!" Or maybe they're all smoking doobies and staring at their pictures of Regina while eating Twinkies.

 

I know that former's not happening, and they'll soon return to their regularly scheduled SQ lovefest and "#NoSpoilers" and "Keep watching," but it's fun for a girl to dream about.

Edited December 15, 2014 by Souris

[Mari]

I'm finding it a little ... interesting that the writers have been conspicuously silent about the ep since last night, just one or two stray pointless comments. It could be complete coincidence and simply pre-hiatus, holiday busy-ness, but I have this little fantasy of a frenzy of damage control and "We fucked up, how can we fix this?" being done in the offices after the fan reaction and ratings came in.

.

It seems to have been panned (apart from Belle’s moment)  in our little corner of the fandom, but are the reviews/recaps generally bad? Anyone notice how much of a reaction there is to see? (I dream about having a reality check, too. ;))

[KingOfHearts]

 

It seems to have been panned (apart from Belle’s moment)  in our little corner of the fandom, but are the reviews/recaps generally bad? Anyone notice how much of a reaction there is to see? (I dream about having a reality check, too. ;))

Highlights: Belle, Cruella and Rumple. That's about it on these forums.

 

I don't know if it's the writers so much as Adam and Eddy.

 

What really hurts the show is the major plot points. It's not the dialog or character moments themselves (except for 4x05 and the like) that are poorly written, but it's what everything is wrapped around. The showrunners say what has to happen, what they're heading for, and what the setup has to be. Last night's episode suffered from its underwhelming climaxes that have been planned by the bosses this whole arc. The actors and writers have this kit of bad ingredients they have to cook with to make a delicious meal, and there's not much they can do to fix it. You can't turn a rotten apple into a steak tenderloin.

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't know how the reaction to the episode has been for critics or even the general audience who do not lurk on the internet. It's funny, because despite all the contrivances and wack-a-doodle stuff we've been put through, I too felt like tonight was the night where they have officially jumped the shark. Hopefully they can recover in 4b.

I'll admit I tweeted Adam (he does ask for our thoughts). I told him that it was decent overall, but it was disjointed. But the more I ponder about the episode, the more Unsatisfied I'm thinking.

This would be a good episode where I would hope people would be willing to send constructive criticism rather than flood his twitter with the usual hate.

ETA--what also makes me sad is that I know A&E can write emotional payoff when they want to, prime example:the OUAT in Wonderland finale. I balled like a baby. So much emotional payoff. Look at 3a's finale, heck, even Shattered Sight with Ingrid's goodbye. They're plenty capable of writing satisfactory stories when they want to, but for some reason they dropped the ball this season with a lot of story lines.

Edited December 15, 2014 by HoodlumSheep

[Souris]

I feel like I'm seeing complaints and disappointment from people I don't normally see them from. There has been a lot of "It was great! I loved it!" but pretty much anything will get a level of that. It's hard for me to tell overall.

[KingOfHearts]

I can't say either the Outlaw Queen or Rumpbelle shippers were all that happy. I expect many of them to be tuning out this March. I'm genuinely surprised the writers had to guts to shoot down two couples like that. (Even if they have a chance of regrouping later on.)

[Amerilla]

A friend was asking me this morning about how Rumbelle shippers were dealing in the aftermath, and I off-handedly mentioned was that it's not like they don't break them up every midseason. I went back to check and, boy was I right:

 

1x12 - Skin Deep (Rumpel banished Belle from the Dark Castle)
2x11 - The Outsider (Hook shoots Belle over the Town Line)
3x11 - Going Home (Rumpel dies.)
4x12 - Heroes & Villains (Belle banishes Rumpel across the Town Line)

 

Seriously.

 

The Master Storytellers have broken Rumbelle up once.every.season, every midseason, for four years running.

 

So...this is like Festivus for the Rumbelle-iverse. It involves engaging in the Airing of Grievances and the performance of rage-based Feats of Strength. 

 

But, I do think a lot of folks in the fandom are pretty fed up this time.

[RadioGirl27]

I feel like I'm seeing complaints and disappointment from people I don't normally see them from. There has been a lot of "It was great! I loved it!" but pretty much anything will get a level of that. It's hard for me to tell overall.

There are some fans on tumblr that are always positive and that usually like everything that are really mad today, so I think the disappointment is quite general. Probably the only ones happy today are the Swan Queen fans.

[Shanna Marie]

This may be what finally drives me to Twitter. Then I could give direct critiques.

 

You know, the lack of emotional payoff wouldn't be so bad if it was that way across the board, if it was totally a plot-driven show and you just didn't expect anything like that (though even on CSI they'll have the locker-room conversation at the end of an episode that's been particularly draining for the characters). But on the same episode in which we had no idea how Emma felt about watching her boyfriend come very close to death after previously expressing that as a fear or about how Belle felt in the aftermath of forcing her husband to leave town, we saw in excruciating detail exactly what Regina felt about the whole deal with Robin. She talked about it with Marian. She talked about it with Robin, multiple times. She talked about it with Rumple. We got zillions of close-ups on her tearful face. We got a long, emotional good-bye scene. She talked about it with Emma, and we saw her sitting alone and looking sad.

 

Dear Adam and Eddy: Next time, publish your Regina fanfic on fanfiction.net and then write an actual episode of your show.

[Souris]

Dear Adam and Eddy: Next time, publish your Regina fanfic on fanfiction.net and then write an actual episode of your show.

 

Oh, SNAP! I triple-dog-dare you to post that on Twitter. I'll bake you cookies. :)

[ParadoxLost]

At times like these http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/once-a-time-bosses-tease-758082 I'm convinced that my opinions of the show are exactly opposite of the writers.  Spoilers in the links but not in the quotes. 

 

 

Horowitz: [snip] You try to learn from the things that didn't work, and make the things that did work, work better. Moving forward, we try to take all the lessons from the successes and failures of the past.

 

What I find baffling is that they created a finale for 3A that was a near perfect tease for 3B.  It gave just enough of a taste to bring anticipation to a fever pitch.  Back to the EF.  Emma/Henry in NY.  A year has passed. Hook shows up at the door.  See you in Spring.  Then they did a total faceplant on 3B.

 

So what did they learn from that?  Don't faceplant 4B?  No, of course not.  Not this show.

 

They decide to adjust expectations for 4B by making the 4A finale a hot mess.  They can't just tease Rumpel finding the Queen(s) of Darkness in drudgery in our world and let us speculate on WTF is going on until Spring.  No, they have to spend the episode giving 4B set up and backstory instead of wrapping up 4A. 

 

It feels like the lesson they learned was that the Spring arc will go over better if fandom knows exactly what plotline is coming and doesn't get its hopes up for something better.

 

Kitsis: [snip] when we did the first half, we were really faithful to Frozen the movie and didn't want to touch those characters at all. But the second half, the Queens of Darkness are very much from the Once mythology. So, this is our take on Cruella. This is our take on Ursula. And, of course, this was our take on Maleficent, whom we had already set up.

 

Yes, That is totally the lesson you should have learned from 4A.  Being faithful to the Frozen characters made them the best part of the show.  So absolutely, spend 4B twisting the Queens of Darkness into the 'Once' version.  That has worked spectacularly for Robin Hood.

Edited December 16, 2014 by ParadoxLost

[Camera One]

Oh boy, those quotes are just scary.  

 

 

 

Kitsis: [snip] when we did the first half, we were really faithful to Frozen the movie and didn't want to touch those characters at all.

 

Wow, like being TRUE to the essence of a character?  You don't say...  This is a pretty miraculous feat considering they can't even be true to the essence of their version of characters from Season 1.  

 

 

 

Horowitz: [snip] You try to learn from the things that didn't work, and make the things that did work, work better. Moving forward, we try to take all the lessons from the successes and failures of the past.

I seriously want to know what they thought didn't work.  Aside from the taser, which they said was the biggest problem with 2B.  

 

 

 

Horowitz: And picking up [with them] as they're still picking up pieces in their lives.

 

They seemed to be done "picking up the pieces" by the end of "Heroes and Villains"!  Shattered Sight Curse?  Did that happen today?  So over it!

 

 

 

Kitsis: But the end result was not so much that [Rumple] was doing it for villainous reasons. He just didn't want to be controlled by someone else again. 

I'm sorry but this was not clear from the writing for 4A.  

Edited December 16, 2014 by Camera One

[Souris]

A&E are just terrible. They see no problems at all with their storytelling. They don't get it, they don't want to get it, and they'll never get it. They think they're clever to "subtly" mock the CS fans being disappointed by saying we only wanted 40 minutes of kissing, which is so far from the truth and misses the point ENTIRELY. Raging egos. The ratings may drop to a sub 1.0, and they'll still think they're master storytellers who are telling a wonderful story that the fans simply don't get. Enjoy your next show, which nobody will watch.

[Curio]

They think they're clever to "subtly" mock the CS fans being disappointed by saying we only wanted 40 minutes of kissing, which is so far from the truth and misses the point ENTIRELY.

 

I think they were being snarky to dodge answering the question truthfully. They answer as if the interviewer was implying that fans thought the kiss was too short, or "rushed," but what the fans are actually saying is that there were moments throughout the entire episode that were completely left out of the final 42 minutes that made Emma and Hook's reunion feel unsatisfactory. Why not just say, "Sorry about that. We had a lot to fit in and unfortunately they got the shaft this episode. But there will be plenty more stories left to tell about them in 4B." Don't make up some snarky excuse and make it seem like all the fans want to see is one make out session after the other.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Curio

[Souris]

Absolutely. I have no respect for producers who feel the need to mock fans. Dude, your show is still on the air because of the people who watch. You may not agree with fans' opinions on your product, but don't treat fans like a joke. It's a douche move.

[Shanna Marie]

Oh, to add to the list of Chekhov's Arsenal, there was the revelation that Blackbeard was captain of the Jolly Roger and was operating under the command of Hans, but we didn't learn anything of Blackbeard's fate after the triumphant return, and no one in Storybrooke learned about the Jolly Roger from Anna and Kristoff. I suppose that whole bit was aimed at the fans so that we knew, and it was more fun to have a familiar pirate than a random one. But still, there were two people in town who knew the fate of the Jolly Roger and neither of them seemed to have even dropped a random mention. We don't know if they ever told their whole story to anyone. Is that chest still sitting on the beach?

 

As for the 40 minutes of kisses thing, maybe they should be inundated with tweets about "not 40 minutes of kisses, but how about one minute of conversation or thirty seconds of reaction?"

[Actionmage]

 

There's always a leash around Rumple, whether someone's controlling him or not.

 

I think  when you are talking about the most powerful character on the show, that statement is mostly disingenuous. Yes, Rumple fears loss of autonomy and fears being controlled, but there have been great swaths of time when supposedly no one knew about his weakness, correct? Even as late as 3A, Rumple had his shadow hide the dagger so that Pan would not find it to use against Rumple or to kill Rumple and take the dagger's power. If they mean Belle and/or Bae's influence as a control? I'm not even buying a time-share for that. Henry being his last link to Baelfire? I doubt that's what's meant because he's been fine with murdering the kid as late as 2B, and late 2B at that. Both Pan and Zelena are dead, so that's at least two fewer leashes for Rumple to be concerned with, right? So who's left that could be considered, let's say, a non-controlling leash?

 

Anything else you can tease about what's in store when the show returns in 2015?

Horowitz: I think with the arrival of these three new villains, the Queens of Darkness, while we're going to spend some time with them, it's going to be how are they affecting our people. And we're really excited to delve into them.

Kitsis: And really, our core characters.

 

 

(bolds and italics mine)

I just wanted a reasonably easy place for folks to check back on how well 4B lived up to the mission statement: While the Three Bads are hanging around, we're going to focus on our core characters and the Queens of Mean are going to inform our core cast, not eat even the CGI scenery. Even though we are going to delve into their backgrounds too!

 

eta: Quotes from the link provided by ParadoxLost.

Edited December 16, 2014 by Actionmage

[Camera One]

we're going to focus on our core characters

 

Hmmm... when have we heard that one before.  

[Dani-Ellie]

From Yadda Yadda in the Emma thread:

 

I feel utterly screwed over by the writers and I really hate that Emma is the one who is getting slammed for it.

 

Yes. So. Much. Yes.

 

In all honesty, payoff on this show sucks. All around the board. Everything is water under the bridge. Realistically, it shouldn't be, but it is. And to be perfectly frank, I'm tired.

 

I'm tired of being angry. I'm tired of anticipating and waiting for the fixes and having them never come to fruition. I'm tired of imagining how fun and satisfying and emotionally fulfilling Offscreen Storybrooke must be.

 

So you know what? I'm done waiting. I'm done anticipating. I'm just going to sit back, turn off my brain, and enjoy the pretty. I mentioned before that I'm learning to expect nothing. And you know what? There's a lot more squee to be had when you just go with the flow. If you stop expecting payoff onscreen and go for the fix-it fic after the episode airs. Because we have some very talented people in our fandom who actually care about these characters and their relationships.

 

This show has so. much. potential  ... if only the basic storytelling wasn't so shallow. But I'm tired of being an angry fangirl. I want to be a happy fangirl, and if that means I have to keep my expectations at negative twelve, then that's what it means.

[Curio]

So you know what? I'm done waiting. I'm done anticipating. I'm just going to sit back, turn off my brain, and enjoy the pretty. I mentioned before that I'm learning to expect nothing. And you know what? There's a lot more squee to be had when you just go with the flow.

 

See, I wish I could do that...but I just can't. I'm like Hook when it comes to TV watching -- if I'm invested in a show, I'm invested 100%. The moment I realize I don't care about a show anymore, more often than not, I just drop it off completely from my viewing schedule. Unfortunately, I feel like this show is going to drag me and my fanatical self down until the bitter end. (Unless they kill off Hook or Emma. Then I'll finally be able to quit this show for good.)

 

The sad thing is that this show has some shining moments of brilliance, but they're becoming few and far between. I wish I could be a fly on the wall during the writers' boot camps for this show, because I really need to understand why this show doesn't live up to its potential. Unfortunately, I think I already know the answer to that: the show runners.

[YaddaYadda]

This show does have tons of potential.  The ideas on paper are really good, even building towards them is (somewhat) good.  The end result?  Not so much.  I think I've had two satisfying moments this whole run.  The ending of 3A right before the curse happens and then the one year later and the other satisfying moment for me was the end of 3B which made me super excited for 4A.

 

It's two days since 4A finale aired and I'm still pretty pissed about the end result.  RB breaking up and what Belle did was the only satisfying thing.  Belle finally growing a pair and seeing Rumple for who he truly was, that's pay off.  Everything else?  Not so much.

 

But here I am still talking about, so I guess the writers have done something right since I don't feel apathy for the show just yet.

 

ETA - three satisfying moments.  The breaking of the original curse and Emma reuniting with her parents which they didn't even bother to follow up on properly.

Edited December 16, 2014 by YaddaYadda

[Curio]

But here I am still talking about, so I guess the writers have done something right since I don't feel apathy for the show just yet.

 

I wouldn't give the credit to the writers, I'd give it to the actors.

[YaddaYadda]

I wouldn't give the credit to the writers, I'd give it to the actors.

 

That is very true.  I would have given up on the show if ti wasn't for Emma at first, now I have Hook and David when they allow him to do something.  Can they give those three a spin off with good writers?

[HoodlumSheep]

I guess a not-so-swell finale was bound to happen at some point. Season 1, season 2, 3a and 3b all had awesome finales in my opinion.

In dark times such as these, I'd recommend OUAT in Wonderland to try and fill the empty holes in a lot of people's hearts.

But then I realize the fact that they told a pretty solid, cohesive story that had a lot of emotional pay off in a matter of 13 episodes--thus proving that they ARE capable of writing good stories when they want to--would only make people more bitter.

[Souris]

it's always going to be plot > characterization with these writers.

 

The formula is Plot > New Character They're Excited About > What's Regina Complaining About Now? > Genre References > Regina Insulting Other Characters > Other New Character > Witch Cleavage > What's Regina Complaining About Now? > Things That Make A&E Giggle > What They Had for Lunch Last Thursday > Random Neural Firings > Characteriza -- No, Wait, Out of Time and Budget, We'll Get To It Next Season

Edited December 16, 2014 by Souris

[KingOfHearts]

Hook was on the fringe of death for like seven episodes, and all we got was a CS quick smooch. Why couldn't we see Emma worried or apologizing for not doing something sooner or Hook hugging Emma tightly with an ILU exchanged? I'm NOT a CS shipper fan, but that shouldn't be hard to decide to put in. Couples should be shook up by dangerous instances such as the heart plot.

It really wouldn't have taken much to make a better statement than they did. Kissies in a bathroom hallway before boozing with Regina is not romantic, writers.

Edited December 16, 2014 by KingOfHearts

[buildmeupbuttercup]

This summer, there were some interviews with Carlyle, de Raven, and A&E where they were asked questions like "Does Rumple actually love Belle?"  "Did he mean the proposal?"  "What about the abuse and manipulation issues in the relationship?" and the actors and A&E seemed to be surprised people had those questions.

 

Except in the interviews, A&E say that Rumple wasn't acting with villainous motive.  

 

Bringing these over from the Relationships thread.

 

And then there's this from this slightly spoilery article: http://www.tvguide.com/News/Once-Upon-Time-Scoop-Cruella-1090932.aspx

 

Kitsis: What we love so much about Rumple is that he's such a complicated character, and he has so many faults. It's fun because the audience likes to forget those faults, and when we remind them of them, they hate it. But he warned us in Season 1 that he was a difficult man to love.

Am I the only one that thinks they continually contradict themselves? They are surprised when people question his motives with Belle and maintain he wasn't motivated by villainy and yet have the mentality that "our stupid audience likes to forget Rumple is the bad guy and hate us when we remind them."  Which is it? Is the audience confused or are they? Or is the audience confused because these two don't even know what they are portraying onscreen? All I have seen onscreen this season is a villain.

 

With the unsatisfying finale and lack of goodwill they seem to be harvesting with the audience by antagonizing them in some of these interviews they better hope these Queens of Darkness have the same magic DQ had in connecting with the audience but something tells me that's a big fat no.