The Writers of OUAT: Because, Um, Magic, That's Why

[Camera One]

Translating the Writers' Tweets 

 

 

Carly Lapthorne ➶ ‏@ouatlawqueener  6m6 minutes ago
@JaneEspenson will we ever get more RH POV in the future?

 

Jane Espenson ‏@JaneEspenson

@ouatlawqueener It's impossible to answer "ever" or "never" qs since we don't know how many years show will run, nor content of all eps.

 

Translation: We don't know because we never know what we're going to do next.

 

 

 

Jane Espenson ‏@JaneEspenson

@Gi_Enigma @inlovewithlanap Regina's arc was all about opening herself to happiness, accepting RH as part of it, accepting the messiness.

 

Translation: What the hell is an arc.

 

 

 

ChiaRa ‏@SageKia  13h13 hours ago

.@JaneEspenson thanks a lot for this episode... now we have #hope for #outlawQueen again.. great job.. I love every episode that you write!.

Jane EspensonVerified account ‏@JaneEspenson
@SageKia thanks! You realize of course that the arc was designed to take you on that ride. The down is part of the up! :)

 

Translation: We write this show like an amusement park ride.

 

Someone asked about all the "cut scenes", and Jane asked which scenes, and apparently, they were basically various characters hugging (eg. Henry and Robin) and the reunion scene was "lengthy enough".

Edited May 7, 2015 by Camera One

[FabulousTater]

You know, marketing department... you can only use the "OMG? SNOW WHITE IS.... EVIL?!" card so many times. It's really not that big of a paradigm breaker any more.

Heh, totally. it's like "Meh...whatever." Plus, the egg!baby plot kinda took the wind out of their sails there. :-P

Ya know, when the writers opened the can of worms that The Author can make these people do and think whatever he wants, literally warp the universe into whatever shape he wants, or that The Apprentice can suck the potential of evil out of anyone, it takes the "Wow"/"OMG" factor out of anything that the characters do. And for me, it also makes the characters feel less human.

It takes me out of the illusion that most good fictions strive to keep their audience immersed in. Making these characters powerless drones subject to the whims of random dude with a magic quill actually reinforces that these are 2D characters in a silly story -- just pretty little marionettes and we're seeing the strings being pulled -- rather than real flesh and blood people. In a strange way, it's like the writers broke through the 4th wall and they reeeeally shouldn't have done that.

 

Having just caught up with the newest Game of Thones episode, I'm reminded of what Tywin Lannister said to Cersei - "I distrust you because you're not as smart as you think you are". I think the OUAT writers' smug self-satisfaction as they churn out gimmicks, twists, and ridiculous, incoherent plots, one after the other, is resulting in the show's downfall because these writers just aren't as smart as they think they are.

Edited May 7, 2015 by FabulousTater

[KAOS Agent]

Making these characters powerless drones subject to the whims of random dude with a magic quill actually reinforces that these are 2D characters in a silly story -- just pretty little marionettes and we're seeing the strings being pulled -- rather than real flesh and blood people. In a strange way, it's like the writers broke through the 4th wall and they reeeeally shouldn't have done that.

 

What's particularly galling about what they've done with this author storyline is that the premise of the show was that these fairy tale characters really were real people now living in our world and that the stories that we knew weren't quite right. By creating an author that can literally make these people do whatever he says, they've essentially blown up their entire premise. Obviously, we know that this is fiction, but why in the world would you create a story within your fiction that destroys the basis of your show?

Edited May 7, 2015 by KAOS Agent

[FabulousTater]

What's particularly galling about what they've done with this author storyline is that the premise of the show was that these fairy tale characters really were real people now living in our world and that the stories that we knew weren't quite right. By creating an author that can literally make these people do whatever he says, they've essentially blown up their entire premise. Obviously, we know that this is fiction, but why in the world would you create a story within your fiction that destroys the basis of your show?

Exactly. That premise -- "What if fairy tale characters were real and living in our world" -- was really fascinating and in s1 the show did a fantastic job of making these 2D storybook characters from classic fairy tales come to life and feel very real. It was less that they were cartoon characters suddenly dropped into the real world like in the movie Enchanted, and more that they were real, flesh and blood people that lived under supernatural circumstances. But now it's like "Nope, they're not really real. They're totally 2D storybook characters! Watch, as The Author makes them do whatever he wants! Dance, puppets, dance!" I mean, WTF?! Way to reduce your characters back to two-dimensional, live action cartoons, writers.

Edited May 7, 2015 by FabulousTater

[FurryFury]

I don't think that the existence of the Author invalidates the show's premise. This idea could have been implemented well - in a completely different way, however. I've seen it, actually (in one of my favorite animes). The concept of a character fighting against their creator is a fascinating one, and it never really cheapens the character themselves. But the story should be much better defined than we see here. The rules of the world A&E have created make no sense - because there are no rules. It would be pretty funny, actually, if they've acknowledged THAT and made the Author the reason (and written a nice and logical motive for him and explained the source of his power)... but TS, TW.

[Shanna Marie]

I think a lot of the problem is that the writers aren't too clear on the premise of the show as part of building their world. In season one in the voiceovers that started the episodes, it mentioned the premise that the fairy tale characters were real people and their world was real, and a lot of what we saw fit that idea that the stories didn't tell the whole story and things were a lot more complex than we could imagine. That made it sound like it wasn't a black-and-white world like we saw in the stories, with clear-cut heroes and villains, just that they were all people who dealt with their circumstances in varying ways.

 

But at the same time, the writers/producers were doing interviews in which they talked about how Storybrooke was a place where the Evil Queen could get a happy ending because it was in our world and not the world of fairy tales where villains don't get happy endings. And yet they also talked in interviews about how the reason villains don't get happy endings is that they don't know when to stop -- they might have what anyone else would consider a happy ending, but then they ruin it by trying to have more or have it all -- so it's not that it's some rule of this world that villains can't win, but it's the nature of villains that keeps them from winning. That fits the fact that the same things ended up happening in Storybrooke. Regina had won in that Emma was leaving town. She just wanted to have some role in Henry's life. But Regina couldn't deal with that and baked the poison apple tart, which was what led to the curse being broken. That wasn't "villains don't get happy endings because that's how it goes" but villains get in the way of their own happiness.

 

Then somewhere along the way they lost track of that "these are real people, not storybook characters" concept and started really delineating Heroes and Villains like they were sports teams. It got really crazy this season with the belief that everyone bought into that the only way for Regina to get a happy ending was to rewrite the book, but then there's supposed to be free will with the authors only recording, but then there was this rogue author who made changes and it was bad, but still they had to try so Regina could get a happy ending, except the reason villains don't get happy endings is that they go about it the wrong way and Ursula was able to get a happy ending with no help from the author, but we can't destroy the page with the Author trapped in it because Regina won't be able to get a happy ending, and then the big conclusion is Regina realizing that she makes her own happy ending. It all comes across like people who aren't entirely clear on what story they're really telling.

[coops]

They aren't clear on their story or the characters and thats the problem. A lot of time they allow their storytelling to be influnced or changed by other people who aren't writers either, which would be a bad thing if they of they could write in these changes effectively but instead it just makes a mess. For example the actress who plays Regina said in an interview how she spoke to the producers about developing the Regina/Henry relationship after mothers who had adopted children had talked to her about their views on the story. I actually agree with what the actress was saying; just because Emma arrives in town that doesn't diminish the fact Regina is still his mother. However I feel the producers took these concerns and shifted the story/characters in a way that resulted in characters acting so out if character I cant take them seriously on screen. Regina had still commited terrible crimes and should have atoned and proved herself redeemed before she was allowed to become mother of the year. Its the same story with the outrage over the Regina Robin and Marian love triangle. The producers saw the backlash from fans and tried to retcon the story to 'Marian=Zelena!' but it just came off as an awful last minute rewrite.

[Camera One]

 It got really crazy this season with the belief that everyone bought into that the only way for Regina to get a happy ending was to rewrite the book, but then there's supposed to be free will with the authors only recording, but then there was this rogue author who made changes and it was bad, but still they had to try so Regina could get a happy ending, except the reason villains don't get happy endings is that they go about it the wrong way and Ursula was able to get a happy ending with no help from the author, but we can't destroy the page with the Author trapped in it because Regina won't be able to get a happy ending, and then the big conclusion is Regina realizing that she makes her own happy ending. It all comes across like people who aren't entirely clear on what story they're really telling.

 

Maybe all the mixed messages points to the fact that the writers planned those short stories without first putting thought into the bigger picture.  As I've said before, my hypothesis is that they wrote Ursula getting a happy ending to build to the surprise 180 reversal of the Cruella episode revealing that she was actually pure evil.  But they didn't think about how those two ultimately stand-alone episodes would fit in their bigger overarching storylines.

 

The other problem was their tendency to write towards specific objectives regardless of whether they actually worked coherently.  They wanted to end the season with a funhouse of heroes and villains switcheroo.  So their outline devoted half of 4B to finding the Writer, but the Writer won't get the ability (ink) to actually make any changes until the penultimate episode (last week).  Meanwhile, they wanted to end the season with Regina realizing that she was responsible for her own happiness.  The former required one person (the Writer) imposing his will on the characters, while the latter was supposed to celebrate a character's free will to choose their own ending.

Edited May 8, 2015 by Camera One

[Shanna Marie]

The former required one person (the Writer) imposing his will on the characters, while the latter was supposed to celebrate a character's free will to choose their own ending.

It would have been so easy to fix that by just having had Regina be the one seeking to change her fate, only to learn the Valuable Lesson that she's in charge of her fate, without everyone else buying into it. I think that's what sank this plot line. It would have worked for Regina, who isn't exactly in touch with reality at the best of times, to come up with this idea and be working on it on her own, only to get her chance to do it and then realize that it's a bad idea. But having super-realist Emma buy into it as a great idea and devote so much attention to it and having Snow and David decide that they have to take the risk of saving the Author page because otherwise Regina can't get her happy ending just made it go off the rails because then everyone looks delusional and out of character. That's where the Mary Sue problem comes back to bite them -- other characters get sucked into the black hole and the universe warps itself around her instead of her having to abide by the same rules as everyone else and the other characters actually getting to act like themselves.

 

But then we have the in utero darkness thing, which contradicts with the "villains aren't born, they're made" concept they've been pushing all along.

[FurryFury]

That's where the Mary Sue problem comes back to bite them -- other characters get sucked into the black hole and the universe warps itself around her instead of her having to abide by the same rules as everyone else and the other characters actually getting to act like themselves.

 

Exactly. I do believe that the Mary Sue term is overused in fandoms, but here, it's on point, because having other characters help/like you without any real reason and sometimes against their established characterizations is the quintessential part of being a Mary Sue.

[KingOfHearts]

 

But having super-realist Emma buy into it as a great idea and devote so much attention to it and having Snow and David decide that they have to take the risk of saving the Author page because otherwise Regina can't get her happy ending just made it go off the rails because then everyone looks delusional and out of character. That's where the Mary Sue problem comes back to bite them -- other characters get sucked into the black hole and the universe warps itself around her instead of her having to abide by the same rules as everyone else and the other characters actually getting to act like themselves.

Replying in Relationships.

[Shanna Marie]

A lot of time they allow their storytelling to be influnced or changed by other people who aren't writers either, which would be a bad thing if they of they could write in these changes effectively but instead it just makes a mess. For example the actress who plays Regina said in an interview how she spoke to the producers about developing the Regina/Henry relationship after mothers who had adopted children had talked to her about their views on the story. I actually agree with what the actress was saying; just because Emma arrives in town that doesn't diminish the fact Regina is still his mother.

It's interesting which outside voices they decide to listen to. They bowed to outside pressure when it came to the issue of adoptive mothers rather than saying, "She's a bad mother because she's the Evil Queen, not because she's an adoptive mother." But when fans complain about questionable sexual consent issues, like removing someone's free will and forcing him to have sex or making someone think he's having sex with someone else, they're all, "LOL! It's fantasy, not reality!"

 

As for whether or not they were right in this instance, I'll take that to the social issues thread.

[Serena]

They bowed because they wanted to bow. It's all part of the whitewashing Regina mess. If it had been anyone else, they wouldn't have given a shit, like they don't give a shit when people complain that the Mills women keep raping dudes.

[Curio]

From another thread:

Thinking more about how some arcs have worked better than others, one very good bit of writing advice I've heard is that a story goal needs to be so specific and concrete that you know what it will look like when it happens. This is especially important in movies and TV, where everything has to happen in a scene. This doesn't necessarily mean that you should be able to predict what happens, just that when you know what the characters are trying to do, it should be something clear enough that you'll know for sure when it happens because you'll see it take place.

This made me think of Kurt Vonnegut’s 8 Tips on How to Write a Great Story. 

8. Give your readers as much information as possible as soon as possible. To hell with suspense. Readers should have such complete understanding of what is going on, where and why, that they could finish the story themselves, should cockroaches eat the last few pages.

 

Tip #8 is what this show really struggles with, and kind of what Shanna Marie was talking about in the other thread. Now, some might disagree a bit about giving away all the details right away, but I think this tip should really be applied more to the writing on Once. Every single season, without fail, we go into the finale not knowing what the hell might happen because the writers refuse to give the audience enough information beforehand to let us speculate how the story might end. There's a difference between a well-constructed mystery where the audience is given clues along the way but we don't know which pieces will end up being important and literally having no clues to put together a possible resolution in our heads. Purposely leaving out details from the audience not only undermines our intelligence, but it's frustrating when that's the only tool the writers use to create suspense. And in the end, most of their scenes end up not being suspenseful because the plots are so confusing and there's very little character development going on, so the audience loses the emotional connection to the characters and we don't care about what happens to them anyways.

 

I'm catching up on Better Call Saul, which is basically written the exact opposite way Once is written. For those who don't know about the show, it's technically a prequel to Breaking Bad, so the audience already knows the fate of most of the characters on screen. We know Saul and Mike aren't going to die because they appear later in the mother show, but the writers are still able to build up suspenseful scenes where you worry about what's going to happen next. But with Once, even though the audience doesn't know what's going on half the time because the writers like to keep secrets hidden until the last second, their suspenseful moments fall flat because it's pretty obvious what's going to happen. The scene where Emma is forced to save her son from the clutches of Cruella wasn't suspenseful because any sane mother who wants to protect their child would do the exact same thing Emma did. The scene where Emma holds a gun to Lily's head in the middle of the street wasn't suspenseful because we knew Emma would never go through with it. (Also, we've barely spent enough time with Lily to connect with her character, so I didn't even care whether or not Emma pulled the trigger.) The suspense around Snow and Charming telling Emma their egg-napping secret fizzled out because we didn't even get to see the actual conversation.

 

Another thing that feels like whiplash when I go from watching Better Call Saul to Once is the length of the conversations and the pacing of the scenes. Gilligan isn't afraid of letting a conversation linger on for 7 minutes or watching an awkward minute of an elderly lady riding a chair down her stairs and slowly shuffling into the main frame of the scene. That show knows how the normal daily conversations we have are oftentimes more important and suspenseful than a car chase or action scene. Compare that to Once where the longest conversation this half season might have been 3 minutes of monotonous monologuing from Zelena in the hospital and they've already used the car chase trope twice to increase the suspense/action of an otherwise dull plot.

 

Going back to the egg-napping confession that fizzled out—why didn't we get to see more of that confession? Were the writers worried about being too repetitive? If so, that was the one instance where they should have said "screw it, we're repeating what the audience already knows." That scene should have been built around the suspense of how Emma took the news. Start on a lighter note where Emma and Hook are enjoying a normal conversation together in the loft, and then Snow and Charming awkwardly have to break the tension and gather everyone around the table for a serious discussion. Emma asks what's wrong, Hook tries to excuse himself, but Emma wants him to stay and listen to what her parents have to say. Snow and Charming struggle to begin the conversation. Who begins to talk? Snow or Charming? They stumble over their words, but the truth slowly comes out. Throughout the confession, flash over to Emma's face and the audience sees her go from confusion, to sadness, to anger. What does Hook think about their confession? Let the camera linger on him as he realizes that these people he put up on a "goodness pedestal" have made mistakes in the past like he has. Show a shot where Hook looks confused, turns and sees Emma upset, and then he becomes upset that she's upset. Why not throw in a couple jabs from Emma about how it all makes sense now that they feared her magic in 4A or about the cave confession where Snow said Emma isn't what she wanted. Really have the confession turn into an all-out verbal brawl before Emma storms off. All of this could have spanned 5-7 minutes. Instead, we skipped all of that and only got to see exactly one minute of it on screen.

 

God, this show sucks at pacing.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Curio

[Shanna Marie]

There's a difference between a well-constructed mystery where the audience is given clues along the way but we don't know which pieces will end up being important and literally having no clues to put together a possible resolution in our heads. Purposely leaving out details from the audience not only undermines our intelligence, but it's frustrating when that's the only tool the writers use to create suspense.

I think that's the real key. You create a good mystery with good surprises by giving out all the clues along the way while surrounding them with valid red herrings or giving potential alternative explanations for the real clues. All the information is there, but the outcome can still be surprising. The way they write this series reminds me of a big banquet-style party I once went to that was billed as a "murder mystery dinner." It wasn't the thing where there were people among the guests playing roles. They would just make announcements every so often, saying that there was a crime and then giving clue updates. There were supposedly clues included in the decorations at each table, and we were given notepads to write down the clues. And then it turned out that when they announced the solution, it was something silly from out of the blue that had nothing to do with any of the clues we'd been given, and the table decorations were just decorations that had nothing to do with the story. It was absolutely impossible for us to solve it because the resolution relied on information we didn't have. The whole murder mystery concept had just been an elaborate icebreaker to get the guests to talk to each other, and the organizers acted shocked and surprised when people were disappointed about this. That's how they write this show -- the conclusion comes from out of the blue and has nothing to do with the information we've been given, but they think they've pulled off a great writing feat because it was a big surprise that no one could have guessed.

 

The other thing that's important in a good mystery is that the characters have to act in character for it to work, and if they're acting out of character, there has to be a very good reason and strong motivation. There can be false fronts and lying, but there need to be clues that this person is capable of doing these things. It's a cheat if someone who's shown no signs of anything resembling a character trait suddenly turns out to have been doing something different all along that no one noticed and that we weren't shown. If the characters suddenly change to suit the plot, you're not being fair to the audience. Like, say, after years of saying "Evil's not born, it's made," introducing the idea of fetal evil potential and making a character who's all about hope and sacrifice and who wasn't willing to let something bad happen to another person even to save her mother suddenly decide she has to inject darkness into another baby to save her own from being born potentially evil.

[Mathius]

This is why, no matter what other people may think, I will always stand by the Papa Pan twist because it was set up RIGHT. We had clues for it buried in literally every episode of the arc up until it was revealed, and yet it was still done in a way so that many didn't see it coming and only found the clues on a rewatch. THAT was an example of this show building a mystery and pulling of a twist correctly.

I think the only comprable one they've done since is Cruella being unable to kill and her happy ending being regaining the ability to kill. That was surprisingly well foreshadowed throughout her entire run on the show. Other twists and solutions to mysteries have sucked.

Zelena is Regina's sister? No setup, they just have her come out and announce it right away.

Neal is inside Rumple? Beyond some vague crazy ramblings from Rumple, there were no clues.

Zelena's true goal is time travel to kill Snow's mom? Completely out of left field.

Snow and Charming cast the Dark Curse and now share a heart? Ditto.

Ingrid was Emma's foster mom? We got a little foreshadowing, but they barely let it fester before making the reveal.

Anna's pendant was the Wishing Star? We literally didn't know the Wishing Star was a thing until that very episode!

Belle finds Rumple out because of a magical gauntlet? Ditto what I said about the Wishing Star (this one is especially insulting because we were given SEVERAL potential clues, items and moments that could have led to this, but instead we get it happening because of a contrived magical object we never saw before and have never seen since.)

Belle is now dating Will Scarlet? WTF!?

And of course, little more needs to be said about the eggnapper and Zelena-Marian twists.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Mathius

[Shanna Marie]

Belle finds Rumple out because of a magical gauntlet? Ditto what I said about the Wishing Star (this one is especially insulting because we were given SEVERAL potential clues, items and moments that could have led to this, but instead we get it happening because of a contrived magical object we never saw before and have never seen since.)

That in particular is some of the worst writing I've seen on TV in a long time. I don't know if they thought they were clever for setting out clues that went nowhere and hitting us with a surprise or if they were dense and didn't realize they were setting out clues, but it was crazy that they pulled a gizmo out of thin air that had no other bearing whatsoever on the show before or since. We never even saw what Rumple and the Queens wanted the gauntlet for in the past and why both sides were going to such great lengths to get it. It literally had no other purpose in the show than to prove to Belle that Rumple didn't love her most. Meanwhile, anvil-sized clues that something is wrong with Hook are falling left and right and no one notices, including someone who should have known what a person whose heart was missing might act like. Heck, it would even have been better if Henry had played brat and ratted Hook out to Emma for trying to take him during the spell. Or there were the voice mail messages. Or Belle getting suspicious about the amount of time she spent asleep, or her investigating the things the mirror told her. Or Belle comparing notes with Anna. Their way of dealing with the climax of an entire arc was basically "poof."

 

Kind of like the way all the potential setup for Belle figuring out she actually gave the dagger to Rumple was wasted when Regina just told them. Then why bother with that extra scene of RumpleHookskin swearing her to secrecy and grilling her about Will? That was just loaded with ways to trip Rumple up and clue Belle in. If she was going to be told about the dagger and just blurt out what she did with it in the next scene she was in, why did they need to show her swearing the oath to keep it secret?

 

They spend a lot of time setting up stuff that ends up leading nowhere.

[KingOfHearts]

 

They spend a lot of time setting up stuff that ends up leading nowhere.

I can't stand Henry, but his apprentice plot should have done something. I thought for sure he would be the one to find Rumple out. But according to 4x11, it was a side story to give Henry something to do. The only rewarding scene it could have given us was the one that was cut with the two talking. If you don't plan on a storyline going anywhere, then at least make its content entertaining. They put more effort into Snow's mayorship and they knew it wasn't going anywhere. So why did Henry get the shaft? Both actors had short schedules, so why did one get a better deal?

 

[FabulousTater]

I can't stand Henry, but his apprentice plot should have done something. I thought for sure he would be the one to find Rumple out. But according to 4x11, it was a side story to give Henry something to do. The only rewarding scene it could have given us was the one that was cut with the two talking. If you don't plan on a storyline going anywhere, then at least make its content entertaining. They put more effort into Snow's mayorship and they knew it wasn't going anywhere. So why did Henry get the shaft? Both actors had short schedules, so why did one get a better deal?

 

Because Ginnifer Goodwin can act and she's able to elevate the crap material, but Jared GIlmore can't (sorry, kid. You needs more training) and having to watch him on screen is the TV equivalent of water-boarding the audience.

 

So if they're gonna cut a character's scenes I pick they cut Henry, every time.

[Camera One]

Dropping the Mayor plot with zero explanation was just bizarre.  Even these writers don't do that too often.   Did they simply not want to give even an episode for Snow to decide she doesn't want to be Mayor, or realizing she isn't a good Mayor, or deciding to give it back to Regina so her life wouldn't be so empty?  Technically, 4B for Snow could be just her realizing she isn't a good Mayor, especially as these so-called reformed villains waltz into town and wreak havoc.  It could have provided a chance for us to discover with Snow how the town works, providing some world-building.  Why do they choose to avoid conflicts that organically arise out of a character?  There wasn't even a plot-related reason that necessitated Regina being Mayor.  Unless the entire subplot was thought up, so they could have Regina flameballing Snow's bird painting.

[Souris]

Kalinda Vazquez is leaving Once.

 

Heaven knows the writers room could use some fresh blood, but I’m sure the first question on the job application is “How much do you loooooove Regina?” Given that their last hire was the abysmal douchcanoe jerk Scott Nimerfro, I shudder to think who they’ll hire to replace her (assuming they do).

 

I nominate Shanna Marie.

 

I wonder if anyone else is leaving?

Edited May 11, 2015 by Souris

[Serena]

Bummer. I wonder what happened? Has she been cast somewhere else? I hope they get a good replacement - Christine Boyland left last year and I liked her too.

[Souris]

Maybe they tried to talk too much sense and got shown the door? Or fled in frustration?

 

Kalinda was the one who did the Once graphic novel that recently came out.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Souris

[Amerilla]

I wonder what happened? Has she been cast somewhere else?

 

She said in a later tweet that she's "moving on to explore other options," which is usually (although admittedly not always) code for "fired." Or, at least, for not having one's contract renewed.

 

Switching topics a skitch: one of the shows Mr. A and I have been watching when we can't figure out what to watch is Z Nation on Netflex. It's pretty standard zombie apocalypse stuff, with a huge fake blood budget and a lot of thwacking zombie skulls with pointy things and characters that don't always feel all that much more fleshed-out than the zombies.

 

But, damn, the thing holds together as a narrative.

 

I couldn't figure out why until I read a little quote from the showrunner after it got a pickup for Season 2: he has the basic structure figured out through a theoretical Season 5. S1 has been a cross-country trip, S2 will explore the backstory and present importance central character, and so on.

 

This is where the internal cohesiveness is coming from - even within some relatively weak individual episodes, there's a sense that The Author know exactly where he's taking us, and we'll be rewarded for going along on the ride.

 

A&E are on the other end of the spectrum; they generally don't seem to know where they're taking us within a 9-episode arc and the 2-episode "mini-movies", much less a 22-episode season, or a 5+-season series. So few of the stories they tell us end up meaning anything, especially now that they're even going back to revise the way we look at strong stories from the first season.

 

Since they don't see their process as broken, it's not like they're going to somehow fix it. As a writer, though, it was a nice reminder for me as a reminder that (even in my nonfiction genre), knowing what story you're telling is perhaps the most critical part of the the process.

[Serena]

I don't know, why would they fire her after giving her the responsibility of writing the graphic novel? That implies that they at least somewhat held her skills in high regard, doesn't it? I wonder if we'll find out she's part of the staff of some other show for next season?

Edited May 11, 2015 by Serena

[Amerilla]

Could be. She might be attached to another show and just not able to announce it yet. With the graphic novel, that was probably something she wrote some months ago, so I don't know if it says much in about fleeing in frustration / mutual agreement / don't the let doorknob hit you on the way out situations. Sadly, I've learned the hard way that every seemingly good work relationships can evaporate quickly.

[Mathius]

Vazquez was one of THE weakest script writers on the show. Not gonna miss her at all.

Edited May 11, 2015 by Mathius

[Curio]

Even though Kalinda has had a hand in writing some nice scenes (the ending conversation between Emma and Hook in Breaking Glass comes to mind), she's also been involved with some of my least favorite episodes. Tiny, Selfless, Brave and True, Breaking Glass, and Best Laid Plans were all pretty terrible. But I don't know how much of that was just being dealt the short straw during the outlining meetings.

[Serena]

One of the things I can't really decide is which writers are actually bad and which get dealt shit episodes. Like, what can you do when A&E tell you "go write an episode where Regina hurls abuse at Emma all the time and at the end Emma is all, 'we should be BFFS'"? I would give ANYTHING to be a fly on the wall on those writers' meetings.

[Souris]

I would, too, but I also wouldn't. I would probably deliberately fly into the Venus flytrap sitting on the windowsill in frustration after hearing the things they no doubt say.

[FabulousTater]

One of the things I can't really decide is which writers are actually bad and which get dealt shit episodes. Like, what can you do when A&E tell you "go write an episode where Regina hurls abuse at Emma all the time and at the end Emma is all, 'we should be BFFS'"?

That's the thing, isn't it. When it comes to this show, I think you could replace the entire writing staff, but as long as The Deluded Duo are in charge, nothing will change in terms of quality of content: They still have their Woegina permaboner; the storylines don't make sense and it's actually gotten progressively worse as the seasons go by; their worldbuilding is non-existent; their idea of fresh ideas are ret-cons; and their pacing is total crap (and not just when it comes to individual episodes, half season and full season arcs are terribly paced). Unless ABC assigns an overlord to pull A&E's heads out of their asses, the show is doomed to get progressively worse and worse as it wears on.

Edited May 11, 2015 by FabulousTater

[AnotherCastle]

 

There wasn't even a plot-related reason that necessitated Regina being Mayor.  Unless the entire subplot was thought up, so they could have Regina flameballing Snow's bird painting.

I heard they no longer could use the location Regina's house as often as they wanted for real life reasons (the new owners not allowing it). So I wouldn't be suprised if the only reason for her to become Mayor again was giving Regina another 'home' set for her scenes to take place in besides the Mills family crypt where she spend most of 4a.

Edited May 11, 2015 by AnotherCastle

[Mari]

I heard they no longer could use the location Regina's house as often as they wanted for real life reasons (the new owners not allowing it). So I wouldn't be suprised if the only reason for her to become Mayor again was giving Regina another 'home' set for her scenes to take place in besides the Mills family crypt where she spend most of 4a.

I know we complain about the lack of creativity and intelligent decision making, but if this is actually the reason, it's worse than I thought.    Ideas, off the top of my head:

• Ingrid destroys Regina's house as part of her Shattered Sight madness.  Regina stays at Granny's while there's repair and remodeling, and, huh, that new entryway really looks nice.
• Maleficent or Lily firebombs Regina's house for revenge, or while aiming for someone else.
• Build a set of one of the rooms inside Regina's house.  Just film there until you come up with another plan.  Don't show the outside.
• Henry accidently burns it down while making s'mores in the fireplace.
• The Author wrote in a vicious case of termites.
• As part of her new hero plan, Regina decides to move to another house where she can have a fresh start.  She sells it to one of the characters we see only occasionally, and have no need to see where that character lives.

 

I'm still annoyed the Mayored Snow for approximately 3-4 episodes before reMayoring Regina, with no transition or explanation.

[Faemonic]

Season 4 Finale! I realized that I used to watch this show because it was like good Disney fanfiction was given a budget. Now I would watch the final two episodes of this season and last season because it's like bad fanfiction of bad fanfiction was given an even bigger budget. Although I've heard this season they actually had a smaller budget. It looks like the writers were having fun, at least! I mean...at last.

[Dani-Ellie]

From the Operation Mongoose thread:

 

That’s super for them that they are living a dream of theirs, but if they want to keep living their dream, perhaps it would behoove them to pay more attention to what are clear problems and failures in their show. Their dream is, after all, contingent on meeting the expectations of their network ABC (and that expectation is to make the network money) and judging by the current ratings their ability to meet that monetary demand is slipping - quickly. Though, I suppose, if their dream is to achieve cancellation after failing to execute, then live that dream, guys. You’re doing well.

 

I certainly have my issues with things this show has done and I certainly wish things had been done differently but I do think the fact that this show is going into season freakin' five come fall is a huge accomplishment. I watched the first episode of this show hoping it wouldn't get yanked from the schedule before it could finish airing the 13 original episodes ABC commissioned, and here we are, four full seasons later and going into a fifth. And, depending on its performance next season, we could very well get a sixth. And it's not like it just barely squeaks out a renewal every year, either.

 

For a broadcast network fantasy show about characters from mashed-up fractured fairy tales? That's freaking huge. Shows like this historically do not do well on broadcast. They just don't. So for this show to be this successful for this long means they have to be doing something right.

 

I also think the delay between the writing and producing of the episodes and the audience consumption of those episodes makes it very difficult for them to course-correct. If it becomes clear that the audience as a whole does not like Plot Line X, it's not like they can fix it two episodes later because those episodes are already in the can. I also tend to think that we as an audience can get too wigged out over speculation and spoilers to the point that it ruins our enjoyment of the actual story. I know I was really hesitant about the Author storyline because I did. not. want the Author to be some old, ageless guy who'd been writing a cosmic story since time began. I wanted free will, I wanted the characters' choices to be their own. And lo and behold, it wasn't some old, ageless guy. It was only the one guy who'd meddled, and he'd gotten punished for it because he messed with free will. My worrying, essentially, was for naught.

 

Look, this show has problems, I'm not saying it doesn't. But I also think that even though it does have its faults, we don't give it nearly enough credit for being the success that it is. No matter how it's sliced, this show making it to season five is a big deal, and I truly believe the writing team, the cast, and the crew deserve massive kudos for it.

Edited May 12, 2015 by Dani-Ellie

[OnceUponAJen]

I look at the spoilers, but I really try to withhold judgement until I see the episode. I felt like I was pretty spoiled for the finale, but that didn't lessen my enjoyment of actually seeing it play out. I might have been a bit hesistant about a Henry-centric, but I liked his role. This show still manages to surprise me and bring heartfelt moments and characters that I love.

[Camera One]

I was just reading the EW interview with A&E before the airing of "Mother".  I avoid them before episodes due to spoilers, but it's interesting to see how they perceive their own writing.

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/05/01/once-upon-time-season4-finale-spoilers

 

For example:

 

 

INTERVIEWER: And will we find out how Robin Hood (Sean Maguire) and Regina (Lana Parrilla) are dealing with Zelena’s (Rebecca Mader) pregnancy?

KITSIS: That would be the “A” story, if you will. The whole story is about how Regina is dealing with it.
ADAM HOROWITZ: We start off the episode pretty early on with a pretty, we think, in-depth scene involving both Regina and Robin Hood’s reaction.
KITSIS: All the questions the audience is asking, they ask each other.

 

Their idea of "in depth" astounds me every time.  The scene with Regina and Robin at the bar barely scraped the surface.  I get that to them, the A story was Regina, but the A story doesn't work if the supporting characters like Robin are so cardboard that they're unbelievable.  Thinking that things could just pick up where they left over, except "messier".

 

 

 

What can you tease for Barbara Hershey’s return as Cora?

KITSIS: The entire episode this week is really just a character piece about everyone worrying about Emma going dark when maybe they should be worrying about Regina.  Once again, she finds the growth of four years versus her instinct, which is, “I would just really like to kill my sister.” It’s a much more character-based flashback. We realize it’s a time where Cora was trying to get Regina to understand who her worst enemy truly was.

 

On the one hand, they are having all the characters proclaim that Regina is a changed person, and on the other hand, they should all be worrying about her regressing?  

 

So based on this, A&E thinks that Cora was trying to get Regina to understand that her worst enemy was herself?  Really?  

 

 

 

Belle (Emilie de Ravin) seems to still really care about Rumple (Robert Carlyle). How is she reconciling that as Rumple’s health is deteriorating?

KITSIS: Like with anybody who has let you down, you still love them, but you’re disappointed in them. It was pretty obvious that when Rumple went and got her heart back and gave it to her new boyfriend and didn’t kill him, that’s the Rumple she fell in love with and wanted to marry. She still loves that person, but the Rumple who chooses power and lies to her is still there. She hasn’t forgiven that person either. For us, we’re hoping it’s just messy and complicated the way life is.

 

What Rumple has done is far beyond "like anybody who has let you down".  This reinforces that the writers think that one good deed (Rumple didn't kill Will, wooooowww! slow clap of appreciation), can make up for the laundry list of crimes that Rumple committed in 4A and 4B.  They're writing Belle as a fool.  Their "it was pretty obvious" got me, since we were speculating in the episode thread about how we were supposed to view Rumple's actions and Belle's reaction.

 

And as usual, they are congratulating themselves on making the plot "messy and complicated" like "life".  Yeah, right.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Camera One

[Souris]

They're just clueless and think far too much of their own writing. What they think they're doing doesn't translate to the screen an awful lot of the time. They really think a sentence or two is exploring something.

[Mathius]

Yes, anytime I hear them say they'll be "exploring" something, I instinctively LOL. I know damn well by now how different their definition of "exploring" is than most of the audience's.

I watched the first episode of this show hoping it wouldn't get yanked from the schedule before it could finish airing the 13 original episodes ABC commissioned, and here we are, four full seasons later and going into a fifth.

I wonder how things would have gone if ABC didn't order any more than the initial 13? From the way episode writing and production works, I guess we'd just have a very different episode than "What Happened to Frederick" where the love triangle is sorted out more nearly, David and Mary Margaret get together and Regina's efforts are thwarted, thus ending things on a nice hopeful note even though the story isn't at all over and now can't ever continue.

Thank goodness this wasn't the case!

And, depending on its performance next season, we could very well get a sixth

I really hope this doesn't happen.

So for this show to be this successful for this long means they have to be doing something right.

The cast. It's all about the cast, baby.

I know I was really hesitant about the Author storyline because I did. not. want the Author to be some old, ageless guy who'd been writing a cosmic story since time began. I wanted free will, I wanted the characters' choices to be their own. And lo and behold, it wasn't some old, ageless guy. It was only the one guy who'd meddled, and he'd gotten punished for it because he messed with free will. My worrying, essentially, was for naught.

Said it before and I'll say it again, I still hate the Author plot because of all the character stupidity and confusion, but I was pleased with how the Author concept actually ended up being presented, and I really enjoy Isaac as a character. So yes, I agree with you here.

Look, this show has problems, I'm not saying it doesn't. But I also think that even though it does have its faults, we don't give it nearly enough credit for being the success that it is. No matter how it's sliced, this show making it to season five is a big deal, and I truly believe the writing team, the cast, and the crew deserve massive kudos for it.

I can agree with this, though I only give halfway kudos to the writing team. Edited May 13, 2015 by Mathius

[sharky]

So Adam mentioned on Twitter that they've added a new writer -- Brigitte Hales. Here's her Twitter but there doesn't seem to be much more about her. I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing that she seems to be a relative newbie.

[Souris]

I'm going with not a great thing, since she'll just likely be following the lead of who's already there. But we'll see. She says she likes "dark-hearted TV," so I guess that means she's another villain fan.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Souris

[Curio]

Well, at least her daughter appears to be a Snow White fan.

[Souris]

I'm kind of guessing that she was on ABC's radar because of the pilot script. They didn't like it enough to pick it up, but maybe liked her enough to bring her in for something in the future -- maybe as a learning field.

 

Doesn't inspire a lot of confidence, IMO, but we'll see.

[Serena]

She surely has several spec scripts for A&E/ABC to read and on which to base their decision. Every writer needs to have a first job. We're rightfully harsh on Scott because he acts like an ass, but this woman has done nothing wrong, nor has she written a bad episode yet, so I don't see the need to people to already claim she's bad at her job. Also, her first episode she will for sure be paired up with a veteran writer and A&E will do revision, so it's not like they're gonna let a little kid loose on the S5 scripts.

Edited May 13, 2015 by Serena

[Curio]

I'm not too worried about the new blood. If 4B has proven anything, it's that even the veteran writers on this show produce crap scripts and ideas. As long as she knows the voice of the characters well, maybe injects some new ideas into the writers room (like paying more attention to the main characters who often get neglected), and doesn't get too caught up in the Twitter fandom, she'll be fine.

[YaddaYadda]

Also, her first episode she will for sure be paired up with a veteran writer and A&E will do revision, so it's not like they're gonna let a little kid loose on the S5 scripts.

 

And how much harm can she really do that other writers haven't already done?  

 

When I'm the new kid at a new job, what I want first and foremost is for people to give me a chance to show what I can do.  We should do the same for her.  I don't think it's fair to judge someone just because...

Edited May 13, 2015 by YaddaYadda

[sharky]

I totally agree. I guess my frustration is that she seems to be a clean slate so it's not as easy for us to judge her work as compared to Jane, for example. Although could we have predicted Scott would be the mess he became when he had so many writing credits to his name before Once? ;)

[Shanna Marie]

I think the real issues come from the top, so I don't see how individual writers are going to make that much difference. Either there's some groupthink going on, the bosses won't listen to criticism, or nobody dares play devil's advocate because I can't for the life of me imagine how a group of professional writers could have allowed the 4B mess to go out without anyone challenging some of the bigger logic issues. And yet the guys at the top seem to feel that their creative vision is the best direction for the show and don't seem to see the problems that fans have with it.

 

This show is so frustrating to me because the concept is utterly brilliant and the characters are for the most part great, with an amazing cast. They've lost their objectivity with some of the characters (Regina) in a way that harms the plotting, but the core of the character is still interesting if they'd just let her be herself instead of giving her the Mary Sue treatment. But they have a problem of playing to their weaknesses and ignoring their strengths. They're all about the big surprises and the big twists and the big moments, but they fail at these just about every single time. They consider conversations and character interaction to be boring, so they tend to treat it all very superficially, but when they bother to do it, they can really knock it out of the park, and those few moments are the parts of this series that keep me hanging on. If I didn't get one of those wonderful moments every so often and didn't care about the characters, I'd do like I've done for too many other shows and turn it off in mid-episode.

 

And what's really frustrating to me as a writer is that the situation and the characters are unique enough that I can't do my own version, file off the serial numbers and "fix" it. You can get away with making a 50 Shades of Grey out of Twilight because the characters were so bland and generic to begin with and the situation didn't really matter to the parts of the story that people liked. But on this show, it really needs to be these particular characters with their specific situations. It wouldn't be the same with some other tough-talking real-world chick and some other dashing pirate from a storybook world, and the story wouldn't be the same without the daughter of Snow White and Prince Charming separated from them by a curse, or any of the other unique elements that make up the concept. So I can't even cope by taking the things I like and making them work, outside of fanfic, and I don't have time for non-profit writing.

[HoodlumSheep]

Oooh, the new writer likes Doctor Who! I'll take that as a good sign!

[YaddaYadda]

There are glaring continuity problems between scripts.  I can point two things off the top of my head. Back in 4x11, Hook said that Emma told him about Anna and Belle when he was actually standing right there when Belle came rushing into the sheriff's station.  The second thing is the whole Apprentice thing.  They should technically all have known about him.  His damned picture was on the board in the library at the start of 4x12. That could also be the prop people, but don't all these people talk to each other?  Isn't there someone who is keeping track of what's said in scripts and tells the writers about it or do they just keep track of stuff like "cleave myself from the dagger", "heroes", "villains", "happy ending"?