The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[benteen]

HONESTLY!!!!   I mean!!!!  How hard could it be?!?!  I just don't understand why it was so difficult for the writers to write stories that stayed on track with what the show was supposed to initially be about!!!!  What the hell?!?!

 

We only saw 2 Horsemen, right?

[DearEvette]

ETA: One thing that's bothering me is how many people have been slamming the writers via social media. I admit that I'm upset with TPTB but that's in the general sense--mainly because I'm annoyed at the person or persons responsible for mistreating NB. To be completely honest, I'm more inclined to believe that the demise of Abbie is likely the fault of a producer or network executive--not solely the show's writers.

 

I would normally agree with this 100%.  But I can see why the writers are getting some personal flack. Some of them have been very responsive to fans on twitter, even to the tune of reassuring them things would be great.  Abbie fans have alwasy been vocal about fighting for her and writers have been saying things like "trust us" and " things are going to turn out great."  it isn;t just that they were out there pimping their show, they created relationships and rapport with some of the fans.  Yes, some twitter users have gone over the line.  Some stuff is just wrong.  And not everything on screen is the writers' decision.  But a lot of people who are calling out the writers have a right to feel betrayed beyond just the stuff on the screen, but because they did put trust in the writers who asked for it in their own mentions.

 

I think it was Mo Ryan who wrote an article in the wake of The 100 debacle about how to handle publicity in the Social Media age.  And the first thing she says is "don't mislead the fans or raise their hope unrealistically".  She acknowledges that writers/showrunner etc. will engage with fans to help raise the awareness of the show and use their fandom to pull along the show often manipulating their expectations to do this. And that is what happened here, imo.  this is why I can't completely be mad at fans for turning on the writers.

 

i do think the cast should be left alone, though. 

 

HONESTLY!!!!   I mean!!!!  How hard could it be?!?!  I just don't understand why it was so difficult for the writers to write stories that stayed on track with what the show was supposed to initially be about!!!!  What the hell?!?!

 

This was 100% Fox.  After Goffman really screwed up massively in S2, I think they wanted to get away from that.  Also, only about two of the writers from S1 were left.  Honestly I don't believe the talent or vision was there anymore.  That Metzner guy is a total hack.  He was writing for himself, imo, putting Jenny in a leather skirt because he thinks she's hot.  And then the big push to put Betsy and her boobs in the forefront. 

 

Gah!  I am still so mad/sad right now.

Edited April 12, 2016 by DearEvette

[phoenics]

Meanwhile, in reality I want to say,"Wait. You don't know exactly who did what..."

 

Don't need to.  We know what they wrote.  

[cynic]

We only saw 2 Horsemen, right?

Three. Headless was the Horseman of Death. Henry was War. We also saw Pestilence in the Roanoke episode. If they had done Famine this season (maybe with a reprisal of pestilence since he was used as a motw), we could have ended the series stopping the Apocalypse.

[C76]

I see your point, DearEvette. I don't care to be lied to.

 

Don't need to.  We know what they wrote.  

 

You may not need to know exactly who's responsible, but I do. 

 

Am I the only one who remembers Orlando Jones' tweet? For all we know, this BS could have been dictated by a studio exec.

 

(For what it's worth, I think something in the writing branch of the TV industry needs to change. But that's a discussion for another time.)

 

Mileage varies, and I'll admit that I've side-eyed some people more than others. But the fact that a TV writer wrote something isn't enough for me to absolutely hate them on an individual level. They don't work in a vacuum. Everything we see has been approved by someone.

Edited April 12, 2016 by C76

[phoenics]

I see your point, DearEvette. I don't care to be lied to.

 

 

You may not need to know exactly who's responsible, but I do. 

 

Am I the only one who remembers Orlando Jones' tweet? For all we know, this BS could have been dictated by a studio exec.

 

(For what it's worth, I think something in the writing branch of the TV industry needs to change. But that's a discussion for another time.)

 

Mileage varies, and I'll admit that I've side-eyed some people more than others. But the fact that a TV writer wrote something isn't enough for me to absolutely hate them on an individual level. They don't work in a vacuum. Everything we see has been approved by someone.

I find it highly unlikely that a studio exec forced the writers to exposit the story in racist/sexist/stereotypical tropes. That came from the writers. So yes - I specifically blame them for what they wrote.  When I see writing that is forced, racist or misogynistic, I don't blame the studio heads - I blame the writers.  When I see a church full of black people and Pandora lording over them, I blame the WRITERS for not seeing the overt racial tones that would be off-putting to the viewers who are sensitive to that.  When I see Abbie's significance ERASED and her history destroyed and rewritten just to serve as some kind of Magical Sacrificial Mammy Negro Sidekick in the end, I blame the writers.

 

What Iscove and the rest (including you) don't seem to understand is that we get it that Nicole decided to leave.  We get that they might have been in a tough spot.  But they knew this when the season started.  They knew when S2 ENDED because that's when NB wanted to leave!  So they had a very long time to figure out how to do this.  Instead, the WRITERS brought in SBR! and Pandora and Sophie as replacements for Abbie - hoping to pull off a "Cartering" of Abbie.  They wrote that.  And the Fox PR people then promoted just SBR/Pandora.  Abbie wasn't even mentioned.  If NB had any doubts about sticking with the show after this, I bet this removed them.  

 

The truth is, Fox, Fox PR team, SH's PR team AND the showrunners and writers ALL contributed to the hostile work environment that NB endured AND to what ended up showing on our screens.  And they each deserve blame.  The writers deserve a ton of blame for that horrible ending because it could have been written SO MUCH better.

 

If Abbie HAD to die (and I'm not convinced that she did), they could have leapt toward Ichabbie happening and building up to that and actually MADE IT HAPPEN and then give Ichabbie some closure and happy times before Abbie died in the finale.  And then they could have NOT had Abbie's importance erased in the finale as though she was only ever a sidekick/mammy/sacrificial/magical Negro rather than the CO-LEAD.  Again, the writing simply illustrated the systematic racism that existed from the top.  The fact that NB wanted her hair natural before S3 and the writers/producers all had a panic attack illustrates that there is a systematic racial issue in the Network Leadership all the way down to the writer's pen.

 

No one gets excused for that.

 

It's really patronizing to insist that fans (we) don't know or understand what bad or manipulative writing is and that we aren't allowed to be pissed off about it.

[phoenics]

And one more thing, I find it hard to have sympathy for the show creators/showrunners/writers/Fox/SH for the "tough spot" NB wanting to leave put them in, given THEY are the reason she wanted to leave so badly.

 

It's like feeling badly for a manager who sexually harasses one of his employees and then is stuck with a project without a lead because she finally had enough and left.  Screw you and your project.

[PaisleyPark]

What Iscove and the rest (including you) don't seem to understand is that we get it that Nicole decided to leave.  We get that they might have been in a tough spot.  But they knew this when the season started.  They knew when S2 ENDED because that's when NB wanted to leave!  So they had a very long time to figure out how to do this.  Instead, the WRITERS brought in SBR! and Pandora and Sophie as replacements for Abbie - hoping to pull off a "Cartering" of Abbie.  They wrote that.  And the Fox PR people then promoted just SBR/Pandora.  Abbie wasn't even mentioned.  If NB had any doubts about sticking with the show after this, I bet this removed them.  

 

The truth is, Fox, Fox PR team, SH's PR team AND the showrunners and writers ALL contributed to the hostile work environment that NB endured AND to what ended up showing on our screens.  And they each deserve blame.  The writers deserve a ton of blame for that horrible ending because it could have been written SO MUCH better.

 

If Abbie HAD to die (and I'm not convinced that she did), they could have leapt toward Ichabbie happening and building up to that and actually MADE IT HAPPEN and then give Ichabbie some closure and happy times before Abbie died in the finale.  And then they could have NOT had Abbie's importance erased in the finale as though she was only ever a sidekick/mammy/sacrificial/magical Negro rather than the CO-LEAD.  Again, the writing simply illustrated the systematic racism that existed from the top.  The fact that NB wanted her hair natural before S3 and the writers/producers all had a panic attack illustrates that there is a systematic racial issue in the Network Leadership all the way down to the writer's pen.

 

No one gets excused for that.

 

It's really patronizing to insist that fans (we) don't know or understand what bad or manipulative writing is and that we aren't allowed to be pissed off about it.

SO MUCH WORD TO ALLLLLLLL OF THIS!!!  Everything you said is on point!!!

[C76]

I find it highly unlikely that a studio exec forced the writers to exposit the story in racist/sexist/stereotypical tropes. That came from the writers. So yes - I specifically blame them for what they wrote.  When I see writing that is forced, racist or misogynistic, I don't blame the studio heads - I blame the writers.  When I see a church full of black people and Pandora lording over them, I blame the WRITERS for not seeing the overt racial tones that would be off-putting to the viewers who are sensitive to that.  When I see Abbie's significance ERASED and her history destroyed and rewritten just to serve as some kind of Magical Sacrificial Mammy Negro Sidekick in the end, I blame the writers.

 

What Iscove and the rest (including you) don't seem to understand is that we get it that Nicole decided to leave.

 

 We get that they might have been in a tough spot.  But they knew this when the season started.  They knew when S2 ENDED because that's when NB wanted to leave!  So they had a very long time to figure out how to do this.  Instead, the WRITERS brought in SBR! and Pandora and Sophie as replacements for Abbie - hoping to pull off a "Cartering" of Abbie.  They wrote that.  And the Fox PR people then promoted just SBR/Pandora.  Abbie wasn't even mentioned.  If NB had any doubts about sticking with the show after this, I bet this removed them.  

 

The truth is, Fox, Fox PR team, SH's PR team AND the showrunners and writers ALL contributed to the hostile work environment that NB endured AND to what ended up showing on our screens.  And they each deserve blame.  The writers deserve a ton of blame for that horrible ending because it could have been written SO MUCH better.

 

If Abbie HAD to die (and I'm not convinced that she did), they could have leapt toward Ichabbie happening and building up to that and actually MADE IT HAPPEN and then give Ichabbie some closure and happy times before Abbie died in the finale.  And then they could have NOT had Abbie's importance erased in the finale as though she was only ever a sidekick/mammy/sacrificial/magical Negro rather than the CO-LEAD.  Again, the writing simply illustrated the systematic racism that existed from the top.  The fact that NB wanted her hair natural before S3 and the writers/producers all had a panic attack illustrates that there is a systematic racial issue in the Network Leadership all the way down to the writer's pen.

 

No one gets excused for that.

 

It's really patronizing to insist that fans (we) don't know or understand what bad or manipulative writing is and that we aren't allowed to be pissed off about it.

 

 

phoenics, I know that we're all angry about what happened. But I honestly feel like you've completely misunderstood what I've been trying to say. And I never said that people shouldn't be pissed off about the show's writing. I don't believe that. Not for a second.

 

When it comes to the industry, a network exec's notes are enough to get a character killed off on any show. Never mind Sleepy Hollow. (In my opinion Orlando Jones' tweet suggested as much re what happened in this instance.)

 

I'm not saying that the writers didn't write what we saw on screen. And I'm absolutely not saying that the show doesn't have problems with racism. (I'd have to be from another planet to think such a thing!) What I am saying that someone made sure that it all happened. Every major suggestion that comes up in a writers' room has to be greenlit. That is my point. PERIOD.

 

Edited to clarify my point and sound less alarmed.

Edited April 13, 2016 by C76

[catrox14]

Ugh I'm still so smad! WTH. 

 

The worst thing I ever experienced as a viewer was what they did to Dean Winchester on SPN SPOILER ALERT (

actually really most sincerely murdered to death Dean Winchester and resurrection as a fucking demon. The thing he hated most in the universe. It was like some kind of sick joke that I didn't get and wasn't funny.

I had never felt so betrayed and screwed by a choice for a character I love. I was apoplectic. Seriously. Almost ragequit. But Jensen Ackles seemed legit excited to play it. So I was like okay I'll give it a chance and then I loved it...(but still kind of hated that it happened). Then they just wrapped that shit up in like 2.5 episodes and I felt betrayed all over again. And thus far...it's kind of all for nothing! NOTHING.

 

But this...is on a whole other level of fuckery.  These showrunners must be the stupidest people on the planet or they were purposefully trying to gut the show and start over with something new 'Ichabod Crane: Colonial Crimesolver or some such shit.

 

My brain still cannot process the massive clusterfuckery it took to destroy this show. 

 

This should be a course in TV school about what NOT to do if you actually want your show to exist.

[OnceSane]

It's getting personal in here and that's not acceptable. Snark the show, not each other or opinions that do not coincide with your own.

[jhlipton]

She not only was paired with Michael Fassbender in the movie Shame, but she also dated him in real life. Lucky girl.

And Lucky Boy.

 

That's what I thought too!  Have you seen her scenes in Shame?  Dayyyyummmm!

 

In a word....yes.  They wanted to attract the the Star Wars/Firefly/Dr. Who-type fanboys and they didn't think Nicole was the girl to do it.  Thus, we got the ever-corseted Katrina and Boobsy Ross.  I guess nobody explained to them that whole bird in the hand thing......... or the enduring sex appeal of Lt. Uhura.

 

Dr Who is starting to bring some diversity (Freema Agyeman, who can be seen -- and appreciated on Sense8 as Martha Jones ), as is Star Wars (no black women yet, though) and they are doing fine.

 

 

I was just thinking today that Nicole would have been a better Lt Uhura instead of Zoe Saldana. 

 

NB would have made a much better Nina Simone than Zoe Fucking Saldana.

 

 

[W]hat they put on our screens have consequences

 

Words have power????  Who knew?????

As for the writers, "Guilt" by [the] Association wasn't a song of the late 60's but should have been

[bobbysgurl]

Martha Jones was vilified by Rose shippers. They said that "she hasn't changed her clothes since the show started, so she's probably stinking?" Wow! Just Wow. The ultimate time traveler is The Doctor. The Tardis could have taken them around the world 20 times and off planet a hundred times and still ended up at the same time and place it left Earth.

Edited April 13, 2016 by bobbysgurl

[C76]

Ugh I'm still so smad! WTH. 

 

The worst thing I ever experienced as a viewer was what they did to Dean Winchester on SPN SPOILER ALERT (

actually really most sincerely murdered to death Dean Winchester and resurrection as a fucking demon. The thing he hated most in the universe. It was like some kind of sick joke that I didn't get and wasn't funny.

I had never felt so betrayed and screwed by a choice for a character I love. I was apoplectic. Seriously. Almost ragequit. But Jensen Ackles seemed legit excited to play it. So I was like okay I'll give it a chance and then I loved it...(but still kind of hated that it happened). Then they just wrapped that shit up in like 2.5 episodes and I felt betrayed all over again. And thus far...it's kind of all for nothing! NOTHING.

 

But this...is on a whole other level of fuckery.  These showrunners must be the stupidest people on the planet or they were purposefully trying to gut the show and start over with something new 'Ichabod Crane: Colonial Crimesolver or some such shit.

 

My brain still cannot process the massive clusterfuckery it took to destroy this show. 

 

This should be a course in TV school about what NOT to do if you actually want your show to exist.

 

Amen and amen. On the Black Girl Nerds podcast they said that the unravelling of SH should be used as an example of a major TV series "don't". The mess TPTB have made is truly historic.  

Edited April 13, 2016 by C76

[phoenics]

phoenics, I know that we're all angry about what happened. But I honestly feel like you've completely misunderstood what I've been trying to say. And I never said that people shouldn't be pissed off about the show's writing. I don't believe that. Not for a second.

 

When it comes to the industry, a network exec's notes are enough to get a character killed off on any show. Never mind Sleepy Hollow. (In my opinion Orlando Jones' tweet suggested as much re what happened in this instance.)

 

I'm not saying that the writers didn't write what we saw on screen. And I'm absolutely not saying that the show doesn't have problems with racism. (I'd have to be from another planet to think such a thing!) What I am saying that someone made sure that it all happened. Every major suggestion that comes up in a writers' room has to be greenlit. That is my point. PERIOD.

 

Edited to clarify my point and sound less alarmed.

 

No I got your point.  What we've all been repeatedly saying is that ours doesn't seem to be coming across clearly?  The decision to kill off Abbie?  We don't care where that came from.  Don't care who green-lit it. Don't care, don't care, don't care. Writers vs. showrunners vs Fox. Don't.  CARE.

 

It's the EXECUTION of HOW they did it that is angering fans.  I feel like I've said this several times and I'm not sure how to say it more clearly?  

 

You're talking about (from what I can see) the executive decision:  Kill her off!

 

We are talking about the EXECUTION of how they killed her off, specifically the WORDS that were used in the script and how her dying on the show happened and the numerous tropes that literally vomited all over us as we watched.

 

The writers did the execution.  We blame them for that.

 

 

 

I find it highly unlikely that a studio exec forced the writers to exposit the story in racist/sexist/stereotypical tropes. That came from the writers. So yes - I specifically blame them for what they wrote.  When I see writing that is forced, racist or misogynistic, I don't blame the studio heads - I blame the writers.  When I see a church full of black people and Pandora lording over them, I blame the WRITERS for not seeing the overt racial tones that would be off-putting to the viewers who are sensitive to that.  When I see Abbie's significance ERASED and her history destroyed and rewritten just to serve as some kind of Magical Sacrificial Mammy Negro Sidekick in the end, I blame the writers.

 

What Iscove doesn't seem to understand is that we get it that Nicole decided to leave. 

We get that they might have been in a tough spot.  But they knew this when the season started.  They knew when S2 ENDED because that's when NB wanted to leave!  So they had a very long time to figure out how to do this.  Instead, the WRITERS brought in SBR! and Pandora and Sophie as replacements for Abbie - hoping to pull off a "Cartering" of Abbie.  They wrote that.  And the Fox PR people then promoted just SBR/Pandora.  Abbie wasn't even mentioned.  If NB had any doubts about sticking with the show after this, I bet this removed them. 

The truth is, Fox, Fox PR team, SH's PR team AND the showrunners and writers ALL contributed to the hostile work environment that NB endured AND to what ended up showing on our screens.  And they each deserve blame.  The writers deserve a ton of blame for that horrible ending because it could have been written SO MUCH better.

If Abbie HAD to die (and I'm not convinced that she did), they could have leapt toward Ichabbie happening and building up to that and actually MADE IT HAPPEN and then give Ichabbie some closure and happy times before Abbie died in the finale.  And then they could have NOT had Abbie's importance erased in the finale as though she was only ever a sidekick/mammy/sacrificial/magical Negro rather than the CO-LEAD.  Again, the writing simply illustrated the systematic racism that existed from the top.  The fact that NB wanted her hair natural before S3 and the writers/producers all had a panic attack illustrates that there is a systematic racial issue in the Network Leadership all the way down to the writer's pen.

No one gets excused for that.

It's really patronizing to insist that fans (we) don't know or understand what bad or manipulative writing is and that we aren't allowed to be pissed off about it.  That's what these writers have done with every deflection they've made and all of the "hints" their friends are dropping that we can't see the whole story, so we shouldn't hold them accountable for what THEY wrote.

 

Hopefully my edits made this clearer and less like I was focusing specifically on you.

Edited April 13, 2016 by phoenics

[phoenics]

Bringing this over from the ragnorak thread:

 

I've been saying all season that the layered depth and batshit crazy of SH had been lost.  Even the social order upending of having Ichabod at the mercy of a woman that likely would have been subservient to him in his time was revolutionary when this show aired.  They literally lost ALL of that.

 

I think only Iscove could bring it back to form - and if he's hamstrung by a network/industry that refuses to go there because they are uncomfortable with those themes, what's the point?

 

I read this commentary on tumblr and it nearly moved me to tears it was so deeply poignant and salient:  http://steelrigged-blog.tumblr.com/post/142688874681/post-mortem-on-sleepy-hollow

[phoenics]

 

I'm not saying that the writers didn't write what we saw on screen. And I'm absolutely not saying that the show doesn't have problems with racism. (I'd have to be from another planet to think such a thing!) What I am saying that someone made sure that it all happened. Every major suggestion that comes up in a writers' room has to be greenlit. That is my point. PERIOD.

 

Edited to clarify my point and sound less alarmed.

 

I see that's your point.  It's not the same as the point - or the point many of us were arguing.  The concern is not with who greenlit what.  It's not about the executive decision to sideline Abbie, it's about the execution - meaning how that ended up playing onscreen.

 

Phillip Iscove keeps discussing this with fans on twitter as though we don't understand that there may have been extenuating circumstances forcing them to kill off Abbie because NB was leaving and they wanted to reboot the show.  Even though I've seen some fans still angry that Abbie was killed off, I can understand how a less creative writing team could decide that was the only option - or a network suit may have forced their hand on that.

 

That's not what I'm upset about.  In fact, I just don't care where the decision to kill off Abbie came from.  It's not relevant to what I'm saying.

 

What I'm upset about is the execution of Abbie's death and subsequent marginalization.  I'm upset about the tropes (misogynoir and stereotypical) they used in their script which wrote Abbie off.  There was something almost mean in how they wrote her out that felt like an intentional slap in the face.  Kinda like how when they wrote Ichabod giving Katrina CPR, it felt like a deliberate slap in the face to Ichabbie fans.  This was actually much worse than Deliverance.  Taking away Abbie being an equal partner/witness was just unforgivable and it was the writers who did that.  I don't think the network would have gotten THAT deep.  They may have given some kind of edict to reboot the show, but that still didn't mean they had to write it the way that they did.

 

Also - as I said above - ALL of them are to blame.  But that also includes the writers and I'm beyond tired of them deflecting blame on twitter and sending out their friends on twitter and tumblr (!) - seriously - a friend of Albert Kim's who is a writer came into the Sleepy Hollow tags on tumblr to argue the same kind of "it's not the writer's fault!" and "you can't see the whole iceberg" patronizing mess.

 

So - yet ANOTHER reason why this show failed and what went wrong is that the writers seem incapable of taking responsibility and LISTENING - really LISTENING to the fans.  The black writer who should know better?  Bragging about how he's black and he gets it when fans were talking about problematic tropes and issues near the beginning of the season?  Please brotha - look at that finale!  I'm sure he got a look at that somewhere, especially as he's now also a producer - but not a peep from him I guess on how Abbie ended up a stereotypical bag of tropes in the end, instead of the groundbreaking character she was.

 

Ugh - now I'm in tears.

Edited April 13, 2016 by phoenics

[Three]

I read this commentary on tumblr and it nearly moved me to tears it was so deeply poignant and salient:  http://steelrigged-blog.tumblr.com/post/142688874681/post-mortem-on-sleepy-hollow

 

Thanks for that. A really good read.

ETA: Strike that. It was an excellent read with much food for thought and much to feel sad about. I've read it three times now. Saying it was a good read feels dismissive. Hopefully someone will send that link to TPTB and the writers.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Three

[jhlipton]

I read this commentary on tumblr and it nearly moved me to tears it was so deeply poignant and salient: http://steelrigged-blog.tumblr.com/post/142688874681/post-mortem-on-sleepy-hollow

American, this beautiful mess of a country, has a ton of moral thinking to do about race and history. Sleepy Hollow more than any show in decades, was perfectly set up to play with, and around, and through that tension. That was it’s potential. That is what we lost.

You know what we lost: "American strength"!

Edited April 13, 2016 by jhlipton

[phoenics]

Ugh - now I'm mad that they had Daniel bring up the #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter line when it should have been Ichabod. It felt weird and unnatural coming from Danny.

It would have made more sense with Ichy. A lot would have made more sense if they'd just focused on Ichabbie, given that they knew NB was leaving!

I still don't buy CC's mess about Tom and Nicole not wanting Ichabbie? Doesn't that feel weird to anyone else? Like a showrunner would let actors tell him that they shouldn't be romantic?

I just don't buy it. That was CC's decision. As if NB had any clout at all and Tom Mison was totally GUNG HO for Ichabbie and played Ichabod as a man completely in love with Abbie.

Wow - I'm so depressed now, lol.

[C76]

I see that's your point.  It's not the same as the point - or the point many of us were arguing.  The concern is not with who greenlit what.  It's not about the executive decision to sideline Abbie, it's about the execution - meaning how that ended up playing onscreen.

 

Phillip Iscove keeps discussing this with fans on twitter as though we don't understand that there may have been extenuating circumstances forcing them to kill off Abbie because NB was leaving and they wanted to reboot the show.  Even though I've seen some fans still angry that Abbie was killed off, I can understand how a less creative writing team could decide that was the only option - or a network suit may have forced their hand on that.

 

That's not what I'm upset about.  In fact, I just don't care where the decision to kill off Abbie came from.  It's not relevant to what I'm saying.

 

What I'm upset about is the execution of Abbie's death and subsequent marginalization.  I'm upset about the tropes (misogynoir and stereotypical) they used in their script which wrote Abbie off.  There was something almost mean in how they wrote her out that felt like an intentional slap in the face.  Kinda like how when they wrote Ichabod giving Katrina CPR, it felt like a deliberate slap in the face to Ichabbie fans.  This was actually much worse than Deliverance.  Taking away Abbie being an equal partner/witness was just unforgivable and it was the writers who did that.  I don't think the network would have gotten THAT deep.  They may have given some kind of edict to reboot the show, but that still didn't mean they had to write it the way that they did.

 

Also - as I said above - ALL of them are to blame.  But that also includes the writers and I'm beyond tired of them deflecting blame on twitter and sending out their friends on twitter and tumblr (!) - seriously - a friend of Albert Kim's who is a writer came into the Sleepy Hollow tags on tumblr to argue the same kind of "it's not the writer's fault!" and "you can't see the whole iceberg" patronizing mess.

 

So - yet ANOTHER reason why this show failed and what went wrong is that the writers seem incapable of taking responsibility and LISTENING - really LISTENING to the fans.  The black writer who should know better?  Bragging about how he's black and he gets it when fans were talking about problematic tropes and issues near the beginning of the season?  Please brotha - look at that finale!  I'm sure he got a look at that somewhere, especially as he's now also a producer - but not a peep from him I guess on how Abbie ended up a stereotypical bag of tropes in the end, instead of the groundbreaking character she was.

 

Ugh - now I'm in tears.

 

 

I completely understand and agree with what you're upset about. I think a huge part of the problem lies in the fact that marginalized people understand the nuances of what's going on. Meanwhile, to TPTB this was probably--to paraphrase a character from Underground--"just another day at the office" for them.

 

Quite frankly, from my POV, I don't think our discussion has to be a matter of one reason vs the other. I don't think either of us are incorrect in our understanding of all of the things that are wrong with Sleepy Hollow. In fact there are so many levels of wrong here--in terms of what's upsetting about what TPTB have done--if I started talking about it, I'm not sure of when I'd stop.

Edited April 13, 2016 by C76

[catrox14]

 

I still don't buy CC's mess about Tom and Nicole not wanting Ichabbie? Doesn't that feel weird to anyone else? Like a showrunner would let actors tell him that they shouldn't be romantic?

 

I don't buy it all. I'm sorry but if Tom Mison thinks his hand sex was totally platonic, that boy needs to have some lessons on what those hands were doing to the audience LOL

 

 

 

Nah, that's BS.

 

I completely understand and agree with what you're upset about. I think a huge part of the problem lies in the fact that marginalized people understand the nuances of what's going

 

Sorry but one doesn't have to be the marginalized person to see the blatant marginalization the writers and showrunners allowed to happen with Abbie. 

[Three]

Ugh - now I'm mad that they had Daniel bring up the #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter line when it should have been Ichabod. It felt weird and unnatural coming from Danny.

It would have made more sense with Ichy. A lot would have made more sense if they'd just focused on Ichabbie, given that they knew NB was leaving!

I still don't buy CC's mess about Tom and Nicole not wanting Ichabbie? Doesn't that feel weird to anyone else? Like a showrunner would let actors tell him that they shouldn't be romantic?

I just don't buy it. That was CC's decision. As if NB had any clout at all and Tom Mison was totally GUNG HO for Ichabbie and played Ichabod as a man completely in love with Abbie.

Wow - I'm so depressed now, lol.

 

re  Danny and #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter I felt really uncomfortable about that at the time and put it down to over sensitivity or my one-sided ichabbiness.   There's lots to unpack in giving that very significant line to that particular character. Now it just feels to me like part of their extended FU to the fans. This whole season feels like an extended FU.

 

re Tom Mison. Yes, I agree. I don't think TM could have been more clear on where he stood on ichabbie.  He said it, he played it. I have to believe he was fighting for it. CC's comments are completely disingenuous and buck-passing.

 

ETA: I'm not sure where NB stood on ichabbie, but what I do believe is that she wouldn't have had the same sort of freedom to push that or any option as TM had. She would have suffered a backlash either way.

Edited April 13, 2016 by Three

[jhlipton]

I read this commentary on tumblr and it nearly moved me to tears it was so deeply poignant and salient:  http://steelrigged-blog.tumblr.com/post/142688874681/post-mortem-on-sleepy-hollow

 

I have posted this to my FaceBook account as the best essay I've read, not just re Sleepy Hollow, but on racism in America.

[phoenics]

I completely understand and agree with what you're upset about. I think a huge part of the problem lies in the fact that marginalized people understand the nuances of what's going on. Meanwhile, to TPTB this was probably--to paraphrase a character from Underground--"just another day at the office" for them.

 

Quite frankly, from my POV, I don't think our discussion has to be a matter of one reason vs the other. I don't think either of us are incorrect in our understanding of all of the things that are wrong with Sleepy Hollow. In fact there are so many levels of wrong here--in terms of what's upsetting about what TPTB have done--if I started talking about it, I'm not sure of when I'd stop.

 

Yup.  This is why I'm still side-eyeing Matt Damon for his comments about how we don't need diversity behind the camera (paraphrasing), to ensure fair treatment for characters of color.  When Scandal and Empire and HTGAWM (to an extent) are the only shows that seem to be getting race nuance right or even addressed in depth on their shows in a realistic way (maybe a little less so for Empire, lol - but that's a soap), I think that proves something.

 

And sadly, TPTB are missing out!  That tumblr post I mentioned went so deep into things I'd forgotten I loved in SH S1 - and Iscove should be applauded for that - he clearly is somewhat of an exception to this at least for those topics - but maybe he's an exception because he listened (before now, that is)?  Either way - when he passed the show to Goffman, he clearly either left some of the subtext and vision out of it, or Goffman simply ignored it because he was uncomfortable with it.  

 

That's a shame because that dichotomy of the Founding Farmers/racism/slavery/Apocalypse/Man out of Time/Black woman in modern times as this living embodiment of what America could be was genius.  It worked so well.

 

And then racial bias (whether conscious or unconscious) destroyed it all.  That tumblr writer was right when she intimated that the writers/show/network obliterated those concepts because it doesn't know how to discuss them without the uncomfortableness of an America that holds those lofty ideals whilst simultaneously having such horrible treatment of some of its people.  It's the story of our current society in a nutshell.

[catrox14]

Well, shit. That essay made me tear up and reminded me of yes, that is exactly why I loved Sleepy Hollow. And it was so special and beautiful and slyly subversive in a totally inoffensive way. 

 

I'm just so...damn...now I'm even more sad that they killed it. 

 

 

FFFFFFFFFFFFFF

[C76]

Yup.  This is why I'm still side-eyeing Matt Damon for his comments about how we don't need diversity behind the camera (paraphrasing), to ensure fair treatment for characters of color.  When Scandal and Empire and HTGAWM (to an extent) are the only shows that seem to be getting race nuance right or even addressed in depth on their shows in a realistic way (maybe a little less so for Empire, lol - but that's a soap), I think that proves something.

 

And sadly, TPTB are missing out!  That tumblr post I mentioned went so deep into things I'd forgotten I loved in SH S1 - and Iscove should be applauded for that - he clearly is somewhat of an exception to this at least for those topics - but maybe he's an exception because he listened (before now, that is)?  Either way - when he passed the show to Goffman, he clearly either left some of the subtext and vision out of it, or Goffman simply ignored it because he was uncomfortable with it.  

 

That's a shame because that dichotomy of the Founding Farmers/racism/slavery/Apocalypse/Man out of Time/Black woman in modern times as this living embodiment of what America could be was genius.  It worked so well.

 

And then racial bias (whether conscious or unconscious) destroyed it all.  That tumblr writer was right when she intimated that the writers/show/network obliterated those concepts because it doesn't know how to discuss them without the uncomfortableness of an America that holds those lofty ideals whilst simultaneously having such horrible treatment of some of its people.  It's the story of our current society in a nutshell.

 

I hear you. Real diversity and an understanding of why it's important are critical for the success of a show like SH.

 

And I know you might disagree with me, but I actually feel sorry for Phillip Iscove. He created and pitched Sleepy Hollow. Yet after the first year or so, he and his mentors relinquished creative control--or were given the boot? None of us knows the details. Also, I'll have to re-read it, but from what I understand of this interview, SH is the first project that he's ever successfully sold. I have visions of bigwigs telling him,"Give it to us, you don't know what the f you're doing!"

 

I've studied television for a bit. In school one of my classmates came up with a show concept and pilot that I loved. But more than one of us were worried about what would happen once she tried to get it made. 

[phoenics]

I don't disagree with you at all about Iscove.  I think he's trying to defend those writers because solidarity, but I totally feel badly for him.  SH is/was his baby and look at what they did to it.  Both this season and last season.

 

He's the only one left from SH besides Orlando and NB that I still follow on twitter.

 

I just think he's taking the anger about what the writers did to the show personally like he did it when he hasn't worked on the show since S1.  I wish they'd left HIM as showrunner... or at least as headwriter?

[C76]

re  Danny and #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter I felt really uncomfortable about that at the time and put it down to over sensitivity or my one-sided ichabbiness.   There's lots to unpack in giving that very significant line to that particular character. Now it just feels to me like part of their extended FU to the fans. This whole season feels like an extended FU.

 

re Tom Mison. Yes, I agree. I don't think TM could have been more clear on where he stood on ichabbie.  He said it, he played it. I have to believe he was fighting for it. CC's comments are completely disingenuous and buck-passing.

 

ETA: I'm not sure where NB stood on ichabbie, but what I do believe is that she wouldn't have had the same sort of freedom to push that or any option as TM had. She would have suffered a backlash either way.

 

I'll have to catch up on everyone's comments on Ichabbie at another time. But I spent a chunk of my weekend watching NB + TM interviews. I'd never seen them before. Those two are practically BFFs--and with chemistry for days!

 

That said, I had the impression that they didn't understand fans' interest in Ichabbie. If I remember correctly at one point NB said something like,"...people see what they want" in her and TM's performance. Also, I think I read an interview where one of them said they were glad that the show hadn't put their characters in a relationship. From what I gathered, that's the way NB and TM wanted it.

 

I wound up thinking that perhaps someone ought to have a discussion with them. I also couldn't help but wonder if the thought of playing romantic partners made them uncomfortable. Meanwhile, as actors, they need to be open to stretching themselves. If Abbie and Crane were in love, it wouldn't have to mean that the show'd gone to hell. 

 

And phoenics, I was taught that a showrunner and head writer are one and the same. 

 

ETA: After I wrote this post, I saw a gif that was from an interview of TM's. Supposedly he made a comment that said (paraphrasing),"And Ichabod's in love with Abbie...".

 

I was taken aback. I'm confused. I was under the impression that Ichabbie didn't happen because the actors and writers had mutually agreed that it wouldn't, and were ok with that decision.

Edited April 13, 2016 by C76

[Indi]

re  Danny and #AbbieMillsDeservesBetter I felt really uncomfortable about that at the time and put it down to over sensitivity or my one-sided ichabbiness.   There's lots to unpack in giving that very significant line to that particular character. Now it just feels to me like part of their extended FU to the fans. This whole season feels like an extended FU.

They appropriated that hashtag, who was created by a fan, a black woman, to point out how the black female lead was being sidelined and encourage better writing for Abbie, and then took the stinkiest dump on it and on her fans. It's not a question of what character said the line, it's what they should have understood and subsequently done with Abbie. I wouldn't have cared if THO had said it, as long as Abbie had been given the writing she deserved. The storyline she deserved.

 

As for the writers whining that fans are being mean and that it wasn't their fault. I am more than tired of all of them: the writers, the FOX execs, EPs and all their aunties. All of them are responsible to different extents and yet all of them are finger pointing and deflecting the blame on others. The funny thing is that they all are quick to accept the praise as wholly deserved.

[C76]

As for the writers whining that fans are being mean and that it wasn't their fault. I am more than tired of all of them: the writers, the FOX execs, EPs and all their aunties. All of them are responsible to different extents and yet all of them are finger pointing and deflecting the blame on others. The funny thing is that they all are quick to accept the praise as wholly deserved.

 

HA! I want them ALL to start taking responsibility and clean up the mess they've made. There's no mystery to what happened. Someone should just email TPTB a link to this thread.

 

In the end, I hope and pray that the television industry will learn their lesson. They seem to be going to go through some growing pains as a result of being confronted by fans who are sick of their BS. Lord knows they can't seem to handle an audience that's

 

a) Right, and 

 

b) Unwilling to be dishonest or back down.

 

This medicine may not be sweet. But it's bound to be good for them.

Edited April 13, 2016 by C76

[Three]

They appropriated that hashtag, who was created by a fan, a black woman, to point out how the black female lead was being sidelined and encourage better writing for Abbie, and then took the stinkiest dump on it and on her fans. It's not a question of what character said the line, it's what they should have understood and subsequently done with Abbie. I wouldn't have cared if THO had said it, as long as Abbie had been given the writing she deserved. The storyline she deserved.

 

Noted. My thoughts regarding giving that line to Danny were just that he is a character whose motives were never entirely straightforward. There was always the suggestion of an ulterior motive or agenda. He never struck me as sincere so giving him the line seemed insincere.

[Indi]

Noted. My thoughts regarding giving that line to Danny were just that he is a character whose motives were never entirely straightforward. There was always the suggestion of an ulterior motive or agenda. He never struck me as sincere so giving him the line seemed insincere.

 

Danny was nothing but an unnecessary, confusing mess. Nothing about him made any sense. Just like S3 itself. What a waste of the very hot and very beautiful Lance Gross.

[jhlipton]

Danny was nothing but an unnecessary, confusing mess. Nothing about him made any sense. Just like S3 itself.

 

When I think of Pandora's conversations with Abbie, there is a glimmer of substance. The first meeting in the bar was magical.  But now I wonder if that was more two extremely gifted actresses imbuing stupidity with meaning...

[bobbysgurl]

I should have taken my pitiful ass to bed, but I had to watch one last video before calling it a night. I know Abbie is not real, but damn it, it still hurts.

[phoenics]

 

And phoenics, I was taught that a showrunner and head writer are one and the same. 

 

Yeah I know - I was trying to split hairs to bring Iscove on in a way that would be effective.  I guess creative consultant would be better?

 

I'm sad to see the potential of what he created so utterly squandered.  The show ended S3 a pale shadow of what it once was.  Sometimes I rewatch S1 episodes and revel in how multi-layered and DEEP it was.  This season was far too procedural and far too MOTW.  Moving it to some shadow organization makes it even more MOTW... and less interesting.  These writers clearly hate the genre, or they are just bad at writing it.

 

I hope Iscove comes up with more ideas and then is allowed to manage them completely.  Just not on Fox.  He needs to go over to ABC and pitch something and get a diverse cast there... it'd be interesting to see a Shonda-Iscove collaboration.  Shonda doesn't do this genre, but that could be a so weird it's awesome mashup.

[jhlipton]

I hope Iscove comes up with more ideas and then is allowed to manage them completely.  Just not on Fox.  He needs to go over to ABC and pitch something and get a diverse cast there..

 

Or SyFy.  Yes, they still have some silly shows (although, I prefer Z Nation to TWD because it is so silly), but they also have some damn fine shows.  And they seem to get diversity too.

[vanarnd1]

That Tumblr essay hit on so many interesting things. A big point out of that was how different and multi-layered Abbie was in Season 1. Back then she seemed to have her own priorities and desires and was actually given the chance to be upset about things, instead of how for much of the last 2 seasons her character has only been portrayed as a witness only meant to sacrifice for the greater good.  Once the show started down the path of Ichabod's family/personal life and his destiny at the expense of Abbie, they never fully turned it around.

 

And I never thought of the historical context previously like the writer had, but it could have been so meaningful if a show involving American history had been able to break these kind of stereotypes instead of falling into them. If there was ever a case study of why it is essential for there to be more diversity in Hollywood behind the scenes, Sleepy Hollow is the perfect example.

 

 

[MrsRafaelBarba]

If these morons get a 4th season, hope angry fans show up at SDCC/NYCC to BOO

and throw tomatoes at them.

[catcory]

Well this totally sucks just when I decided to watch it again!!

[Criminey]

I've spent the last week recovering from a knee operation. As a matter of fact I watched the final in a hospital on pain melds. I've been in recovering, excersising and working with my therapist.

I've watched a lot of the old interviews from the original creators and producer and watched interviews from Tom And Nicole. What gets me the most and what saddens me is to see the joy they all had at the beginning; the delight they all had in making and presenting this project. Then to see the aftermath. The destruction. I really resent that on their behalf and mine (ours).

[Sparkling Beth]

I've spent the last week recovering from a knee operation. As a matter of fact I watched the final in a hospital on pain melds. I've been in recovering, excersising and working with my therapist.

Being on pain medication is probably the only way one should watch that finale.

[jhlipton]

Being on pain medication is probably the only way one should watch that finale.

 

Pain meds, heroin, crack and Ecstasy -- and that may not be enough.

[LeeLeePanda]

I just realized that the season premiere is tonight. Usually I had the premiere date marked in my calander, and I made sure to clear my evening so I could watch it live (and live tweet). This year I'm going to catch up on Crazy Ex Girl Friend on Netflix, then go perform in an improv show. Maybe I should make a bit about it,lol.

[kieyra]

In case anyone’s still following this thread.

I’m rewatching The Good Wife and saw Nicole’s episodes. Decided to google her and saw she’s apparently had no work since Sleepy Hollow. Does anyone have any gossip? I hope she didn’t somehow manage to get her rep tarnished by this cluster.

[catrice2]

22 hours ago, kieyra said:

In case anyone’s still following this thread.

I’m rewatching The Good Wife and saw Nicole’s episodes. Decided to google her and saw she’s apparently had no work since Sleepy Hollow. Does anyone have any gossip? I hope she didn’t somehow manage to get her rep tarnished by this cluster.

I don't know, didn't someone post at some point that she appeared to be going through something spiritually or emotionally?  Hopefully she will show up again.

[topanga]

3 hours ago, catrice2 said:

I don't know, didn't someone post at some point that she appeared to be going through something spiritually or emotionally?  Hopefully she will show up again.

IMDb lists her in. TV movie that comes out this year, and she’s completed an upcoming movie with Jesse Williams (Grey’s Anatomy). Not sure how big her roles are, though.

She posted on her Instagram about Beyoncé’s incredible Coachella performance, so I guess that means she’s okay??