The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[phoenics]

Would that be Jenny from the last 2 episodes, or Jenny from Season 1?

[RiddleyWalker]

Would that be Jenny from the last 2 episodes, or Jenny from Season 1?

I suppose it's Jenny from this season as opposed to season 1 (can't pinpoint the change exactly..) Season 1 Jenny would cut your b@lls off if you looked at her funny, I'm afraid.

 

ETA: there are certainly plenty of men who need their b@lls cut off--I won't deny that--but in "fantasy land" I don't like to think of that happening to me… ;)

Edited January 21, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[phoenics]

I suppose it's Jenny from this season as opposed to season 1 (can't pinpoint the change exactly..) Season 1 Jenny would cut your b@lls off if you looked at her funny, I'm afraid.

 

ETA: there are certainly plenty of men who need their b@lls cut off--I won't deny that--but in "fantasy land" I don't like to think of that happening to me… ;)

Hmmmm... I was asking because S2 Jenny has basically been turned into a walking insert for Metzner - she's lost a lot of her kickass from Season 1 and seems to be here only to look sexy now...

I miss Season 1 Jenny and kinda resent Season 2 Jenny - I thought Season 1 Jenny was sexy - she was so badass - it was like Sara Conner but better.... especially with Irving... I guess I thought Jenny had really endearing moments of softness in the first season... along with her Mrs. BAMF title.

But thank you for the male perspective - I understand what you mean about softness, etc.. but it feels like with the softness, they took away Jenny's badassness.

[RiddleyWalker]

I see what you mean, @phoenics, and thinking more about it, she did have a soft spot for Irving so I think I was a bit severe in my judgment of S1 Jenny. Irving's nads (at least) would be safe!

 

I really like Jenny as a character and, perhaps, that potential danger along with the softness and humor (at times) is what makes her an interesting character. You're never sure what you'll be dealing with as an ally or enemy. I really thought her bit was the most fun this episode--and I don't think she was weak or girly at all. She did what needed to be done--which is all anyone can ask of anyone. If she bitched at Hawley and Abbie, I don't blame her. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[johntfs]

Once thing I'd like to see is more of "the Cranes vs the 21st century."  To me the best scene with Ichabod and Katrina was them in bed watching "The Bachelor."

[savinggrace]

OK, I'm a white male (apparently the demographic the show was hoping to draw in) and though Katrina as the distant, mysterious woman in the opening credits was intriguing, the reality has been…hmmmm…disappointing? Katrina as the character they've presented is not interesting, not intriguing and not sexy. Abbie has always been too reserved and buttoned up to be sexy to me (as was Olivia Dunham on season 1 of Fringe) but if her character was "grown" she certainly could be--tight clothing is not all that's needed to make a woman "sexy"--that goes for both Katrina and Abbie IMO. If the Show wants "white woman sex appeal", they could bring in any number of "visiting" actresses to provide that. Shoot, the girl that gave Ichabod the eye in the bar scene at the mid-season finale was far more enticing than Katrina. 

 

ETA: Nicole Beharie is certainly gorgeous but Abbie (the character) is wound so tight, with no (apparent) soft spots that she doesn't seem like someone a person (meaning me... in fantasy land) would consider romantically. Is this because of the "strong black woman" trope? I really can't speculate on that but would love to hear other opinions. There's a totally different vibe from Jenny, BTW.

 

It seems Abbie is "wound tight" by design. For whatever reason they don't want us to view her in any type of romantic context so while we see men are interested in her there is never any hint of reciprocation or interest on her part. Half a season was spent establishing Hawley's crush on her and to date we have no idea what Abbie actually thinks of him. Was she flattered by the crush? Did she think he was cute but just wasn't interested in him? Part of why we perceive actors to be "sexy" is their apparent openness to their own sexuality. we've seen Katrina being wooed and swept off her feet. Jenny got to make out with Hawley and flirt with the werewolf-looking bartender. But Abbie? The door to Abbie's sexuality has been slammed shut repeatedly. Unfortunately this almost asexual portayal of Black women on TV has been common enough over the years to become a trope.

Edited January 21, 2015 by savinggrace

[marceline]

OK, I'm a white male (apparently the demographic the show was hoping to draw in) and though Katrina as the distant, mysterious woman in the opening credits was intriguing, the reality has been…hmmmm…disappointing? Katrina as the character they've presented is not interesting, not intriguing and not sexy. Abbie has always been too reserved and buttoned up to be sexy to me (as was Olivia Dunham on season 1 of Fringe) but if her character was "grown" she certainly could be--tight clothing is not all that's needed to make a woman "sexy"--that goes for both Katrina and Abbie IMO. If the Show wants "white woman sex appeal", they could bring in any number of "visiting" actresses to provide that. Shoot, the girl that gave Ichabod the eye in the bar scene at the mid-season finale was far more enticing than Katrina. 

 

ETA: Nicole Beharie is certainly gorgeous but Abbie (the character) is wound so tight, with no (apparent) soft spots that she doesn't seem like someone a person (meaning me... in fantasy land) would consider romantically. Is this because of the "strong black woman" trope? I really can't speculate on that but would love to hear other opinions. There's a totally different vibe from Jenny, BTW.

 

I think that a big part of this is the change in writing. S1 Abbie was definitely no-nonsense and a bit closed off but we were shown that was because of her upbringing (her time in foster care, her separation from Jenny, etc...). We got to see beneath that exterior in her interactions with and about Corbin and also her relationship issues with Luke. They removed all of the things that gave us insight into Abbie as an individual in order to use her to prop the Cranes. The reason Abbie is wound so tight is because these writers aren't interested in depicting her as anything else and they suck at character development.

[Indi]

They removed all of the things that gave us insight into Abbie as an individual in order to use her to prop the Cranes.

Hell, they even removed the one villain, who had any direct contact between Abbie the Witness and the Apocalypse! Ichy still has two of the Horsemen alive and kicking, even if temporarily absent. But Abbie? She gets nothing. She doesn't have friends, lovers or foes. Adding insult to injury, she had nothing to do with Moloch's destruction. She was given next to nothing to do in that episode. So the monster, who shaped a huge part of her life (and her sister's) was summarily dealt with absolutely no pay off. And yes, all of this to prop the Cranes.

[evilmindatwork]

She doesn't have friends, lovers or foes.

 

She is basically a central character treated as a recurring one. To add insult to injury, one with no dimension. Crane has friends, hobbies and skills. Abbie has a profession and nothing else. It's a huge waste of Nicole Beharie. I feel like she's going through the motions at this point and isn't trying. 

Edited January 21, 2015 by evilmindatwork

[fantique]

I have a theory that, everything being equal, the person with the British accent will be perceived as the better actor. I don't mean this in the case of Tom Mison but  It amazes me how British accents can allow an actor to get praise for otherwise mediocre acting. Emilia Clarke on Game of Thrones and Emma Watson in everything she does comes to mind. Considering that theory, it's amusing that Katia Winter's acting is so bad her accent can't compensate.

Haha! While I believe that is definitely a factor, I do think there is a difference in acting methods taught in the different countries. Although I didn't know Emma Watson was considered anything more than an ok-ish actor. I think her appeal is mostly as a person not an actor.

 

It's just yet another example of the writers not understanding WHY Ichabod was so loved - before. They thought it was just him and that they could write him anyway they pleased and fans would rejoice. But Abbie's interaction with Ichabod was part of what made him so endearing to fans. Plus the fact that he was really like an orphan but worse. Without that - his constant carping and complaining is just that... constant carping and complaining.

Truer words were never spoken. It just has reached an amazing amount of ridiculous. There needs to be some kind of narrative hurt felt by Ichabod. At this rate, I am half expecting to see both his father and mother resurrected at this point. Just kidding!...Sort of.

 

I also feel for TM and NB, from their interviews they seem to really insist on dissecting the scripts and finding authenticity to be able to play their characters. Now that's gone, there's only so far their headcanon can take them before they admit to themselves this is complete and utter bullshit. They must be thinking "OMG, what the hell is this?" I am actually impressed it hasn't bled through more.

 

While I am now in the "I don't care either way" with the cancellation of the show, I am very sorry when thinking of the crew who works on this show because the show has a great visual feel. 

 

The writers of this show need to grow a backbone and make decisions that stick. Just watched the last two episodes in a row and I don't know if I can muster enough energy to care. They couldn't keep Irving dead/en route to Sleepy Hollow for more than an episode. They are now a joke to me. I will never cry/get angry if anyone dies. When someone says they are through with someone else, I will not believe them. They are making sure that I am running out of fucks to give. They need to to something that gives weight to the choices the characters make. Episode 2.12 could have been a great way to either create a real schism between Ichabod and Abbie or Ichabod and Katrina. At this point, I just want the Cranes to be married and have their romance be in the background and I want a real separation/divide between the witnesses. I want them to be really angry, resent each other, try to find their own way and then realise they are stronger as a team and I want it to take more than an episode over a little thing where (usually) Abbie folds yet again. Hell, I want her to make a mistake and go too far in her mission and then have a season arc learning about balance. DO SOMETHING INTERESTING FOR HEAVEN'S SAKE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Seriously, pushing the download button felt more effort than was worth to watch these two episodes. I give up. I might watch the rest of the season while travelling for spring break, if I don't sleep on the plane. You will probably see me lurking here ROTFL at some of your hilarious comments and that will be the extent of my involvement.

Edited January 22, 2015 by fantique

[RiddleyWalker]

It's so sad what Goffman has done with the show. Unfortunately, and unlike in professional sports, the failure and incompetence of the "coach" often means the end of the "team" in regards to a television series. I still think it's likely that the show will be renewed but I'm certainly not as confident as I was a couple months ago. 

 

The potential loss of the show makes me sad, I suppose--not because it's so great right now, and not just because of the squandered potential--but because I'll have to find another show to perseverate about and another forum to discuss it on.  :(  I've enjoyed and learned a lot from the posts here, so thanks to everyone who's contributed. (Especially you, @phoenics…) :)

 

Here's hoping FOX announces a new show-runner soon, renews the show, hires new writers and it turns out awesome! Huzzah! (I can dream, can't I?)

Edited January 22, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[DeLurker]

They couldn't keep Irving dead/en route to Sleepy Hollow for more than an episode.

Oh jeez...even if they kill Katrina that means she'll be back in the next ep like a bad penny.

[phoenics]

It's so sad what Goffman has done with the show. Unfortunately, and unlike in professional sports, the failure and incompetence of the "coach" often means the end of the "team" in regards to a television series. I still think it's likely that the show will be renewed but I'm certainly not as confident as I was a couple months ago. 

 

The potential loss of the show makes me sad, I suppose--not because it's so great right now, and not just because of the squandered potential--but because I'll have to find another show to perseverate about and another forum to discuss it on.  :(  I've enjoyed and learned a lot from the posts here, so thanks to everyone who's contributed. (Especially you, @phoenics…) :)

 

Here's hoping FOX announces a new show-runner soon, renews the show, hires new writers and it turns out awesome! Huzzah! (I can dream, can't I?)

I hope so Riddley! It makes me profoundly sad... I feel like last night's episode broke me. I couldn't even really get mad... I was just ... defeated.

The next episode, number 14, (at the end) is supposedly when the "changes" start... so if that means a scene where we suddenly see Henry pop back up - well that's not gonna help.

Even if the show manages to right itself, without a HUGE push in the press about the changes coming and a HUGE push with Nicole Beharie prominently featured... and a lot of Ichabbie promotion, it won't matter. They will literally have to do a press promo with critics saying things like "The Sleepy Hollow you loved is BACK!" and "Nicole Beharie sizzles..." and "This ain't your mama's Ichabod Crane..." with NOTHING about StruggleWitch except her DYING. I don't think fans will trust Goffman as long as Katrina is still on the canvas - there would always be the fear that he would use her to eclipse Nicole.

The show used to have 10 million fans. It settled down to about 7.0-7.5 million at season 1's end... and then opened back at 5 million this season... it's too bad that they didn't promote it properly in the hiatus - I'm shocked they didn't even do a Season 1 marathon...

Just really shoddy treatment of this show all around.

Either way - last night I just felt the fight go out of me. If the "shift" abaiers (twitter) is hinting about doesn't grab me like a fireball at the end of episode 14, I think I'm out. The Katrina/Ichatrina fans can have the show - for as long as Fox keeps it around.

[RiddleyWalker]

I'm with you @pheonics, I'm with you…

 

The biggest lift to the show at this point, I'm convinced, would be the announcement of Goffman being fired. Even if the last few episodes are crap, folks might tune in hoping to keep the show on the air and (perhaps) see a turn-around next year. The ratings won't improve until Goffman's gone---and maybe not even then. Minimal improvements in the show or pandering with Goffman still around won't cut it...

[phoenics]

I'm looking at Empire right now and I'm just struck by 1) how that show advertises Taraji P Henson like there's no tomorrow and 2) on the show, she's clearly the leading lady - NO one threatens her screen time... the show clearly is prepared to ride the Cookie wave all the way out - and they are pimping the chemistry (which is crazy) between her and Terence Howard. I don't mean to derail the thread - just trying to point out where a show is getting it right in a way SH isn't.

I just don't understand why Sleepy Hollow turned left like that. I mean, I do, but I'm just trying to stay in denial about it.

I read a comment somewhere where a fan speculated that SH wasn't happy with the audience it had and wanted a different "real, better" one and that's why they changed the show... I'm inclined to believe that... I just think they miscalculated by assuming NB couldn't bring in that kind of demographic.

Imagine if they invested as much time lifting up and promoting NB as they have StruggleWitch.

Edited January 22, 2015 by phoenics

[thuganomics85]

While Empire is pure cheese (I love it, but I'm sure it won't be for everyone), I really do get a kick out of how it is embracing it's diversity and killing it in the ratings (so far), while this show has been dropping, ever since they decided to have more Katrina and less Abbie (and less Jenny.  And Frank almost reduced to cameos in the first half of this season.)  It really highlights how much this show is squandering the praise it got last season for it's diversity.  At this point, it will have to work hard to catch back up to Empire or even Brooklyn Nine Nine.

 

And, now I want a bizarre crossover, where Cookie from Empire strolls into Sleepy Hollow, and just bitches out Katrina.  Don't even need to find a good reason for it; just have it happen!

[MissAlmond]

While announcing Mark Goffman’s departure is helpful for those who are following closely, the vast majority who stopped watching have no idea who the man is.  These viewers don’t follow or care about BTS people.  How many folks walk out when credits roll?  How many Academy Awards shows get complaints about showing BTS people getting their awards even though, without them, there would be no movie? 

 

 

IF Fox is serious they need to hit all critic events, blast social media and do good old fashioned PR that includes commercials.  And yes, after Katrina, Katrina, Katrina, they’re going to have to emphasize Ichabbie and where that leads, who knows?   IF the show is renewed, FOX needs to prepare a commercial for the return right now that shows Abbie and Ichabod together.  The two should be muttering something about “togetherness” their “bond” and how it’s unbreakable.  The commercial then cuts immediately to Badass Headless on his red-eyed steed, axe in hand, romping through the woods.  Badass Headless slashes a sign (reminiscent of season one) which the close up reveals says "Sleepy Hollow Returns”    Translation:  Hell Yeah, Sleepy Hollow is back.

 

ETA:  If FOX really wanted to be subtle yet revealing, the part of the sign Badass Headless cuts off should have a tiny witch painted on it. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by MissAlmond

[blixie]

 

ven if the show manages to right itself, without a HUGE push in the press about the changes coming and a HUGE push with Nicole Beharie prominently featured... and a lot of Ichabbie promotion, it won't matter. They will literally have to do a press promo with critics saying things like "The Sleepy Hollow you loved is BACK!" and "Nicole Beharie sizzles..." and "This ain't your mama's Ichabod Crane..." with NOTHING about StruggleWitch except her DYING.

 

This is what I'm saying. I've seen shows that have had lackluster seasons use this in marketing before  (the "the show you loved is BACK" I've even seen ads that are pleading "Come BACK to the show you've loved!") Is it desperate? Yes, but desperate situations call out of desperate measures.

I think announcing a new show runner would do more to draw the attention of critics and obvs internet fans who have been the loudest, even if numerically they aren't the most numerous. It can only *help* to throw Goffman under the bus, dear fans that guy you hate who you think ruined the show all by himself, he's OUTTA here. Trust us we get you.

[RiddleyWalker]

This is what I'm saying. I've seen shows that have had lackluster seasons use this in marketing before  (the "the show you loved is BACK" I've even seen ads that are pleading "Come BACK to the show you've loved!") Is it desperate? Yes, but desperate situations call out of desperate measures.

I think announcing a new show runner would do more to draw the attention of critics and obvs internet fans who have been the loudest, even if numerically they aren't the most numerous. It can only *help* to throw Goffman under the bus, dear fans that guy you hate who you think ruined the show all by himself, he's OUTTA here. Trust us we get you.

I also wonder if the "buzz" on alternative media (Twitter etc) in the event of Goffman being fired, new direction for the show etc, could increase viewership even amongst viewers who normally would not be aware of these types of behind the scenes changes

[DeLurker]

Since social media is the modern day water cooler, I think it could rebound pretty quickly.

[HalcyonDays]

Yeah, but previews, trailers and promos are important parts of the advertising of the show. That's why we still have movie trailers and promo commercials on TV. To get people excited about the show and make them jazzed about something they really want to see on screen. You can use social media to reach a small segment, but news articles, magazine covers/articles, TV promos are needed also, and that seems to be sorely lacking with the show.

 

At the end of season 1, and beginning of season 2 they released a 5 minute long "trailer" that made it look like a movie that were very cool. So imagine releasing a 5-7 minute long trailer, showcasing Abbie and Ichabod, Jenny and Irving, some action, some creepyness, etc and that's IT. And do it fast. Promo season 3 episode 1 and focus on Abbie with Ichabod. And actually feature them prominently in the episode. Then episode two, feature them prominently together. Episode 3, more of that.

 

The audience that left, stopped watching because of the lack of focus on Ichabbie, and Abbie/Jenny in particular. So make that the focus, back it up with news articles, TV guide, web articles, interviews, etc that reinterate what will happen in the show. Then actually film episodes that showcase these characters and relationships, and you CAN get some - if not most - of the audience back.

 

By actually coming through on what you promised the audience, then they may slowly come back. It may take a couple episodes or more, but it will work. The fact that this show shed viewers so rapidly tells me they can regain viewers rapidly. The Walking Dead had a really bad season 2, and people had may issues with season 3 and on, but they slogged through and now look at them. Season 5 going strong, tons of viewers, in fact growing each year. The X-Files started out slow, hit its stride after a couple of years. So there is a chance. Look at me, being all positive.

[Indi]

Interesting thread about Baiers addressing fans' concerns. I don't know what's worse, whether believe he's telling the truth or not. If I choose to believe him, then they are all a bunch of incompetent screw ups, who can't string a story to save their lives. All of them, not only Goffman.

[blixie]

Yeah I can't understand how you have this amazing response to season one, praising to the rafters the chemistry of your two leads, and your first instinct is to have Katia out there saying "...Season Two is going to be very different from Season One” Um, great? We know Fox balked at this supposedly nonexistant sidelining of Abbie as the lead almost immediately, though I still wonder if that didn't make things even worse per Abbie's storylines.

[phoenics]

Interesting thread about Baiers addressing fans' concerns. I don't know what's worse, whether believe he's telling the truth or not. If I choose to believe him, then they are all a bunch of incompetent screw ups, who can't string a story to save their lives. All of them, not only Goffman.

 

That thread has me somewhere between extremely and morosely depressed and apoplectic with RAGE.

 

You know - we kept saying that they were trying to replace Abbie with Katrina as the lead and his comments really seem to point to the fact that they were honestly trying Katrina out in the "lead" role (I think the latest episode was to be her grand unveiling as the lead) - if it had worked and ratings had remained steady, Nicole's Abbie would have been out of there.  Katia Winter's comments that S2 would be very different from S1 literally made  me see red.  

 

No - at this point all I will accept is Katrina being killed off and Katia Winter GONE from this show.  And Goffman needs to go too - but if I have to choose - SHE needs to go.  Sure - the issue might still be there - but ratings might keep the fools in check and if she's gone at least I don't have to look at Katrina's blank face on the show anymore.

 

And yes - if Nicole had been front and center and the ratings did this she would be gone from the so show fast your head would spin.  No wonder she's looked so lackluster lately.  I wonder if she saw those quotes from Katia?

 

I am so angry right now.  SO SO angry.

[savinggrace]

Have there been a lot of instances where strongly disliked supporting characters with a minor roles in the first season of a show are given expanded screen time and brought up as leads to replace another lead actor? Is it more common that those characters are minimized or dropped from the show?  It still strikes me as extremely weird that the response to overwhelming negative response to Katrina from fans and critics alike would be to increase her screen time. It's like Scully being replaced with Mulder's less interesting wife. I just don't get the reasoning with the SH crew.

 

I found this interesting from the above article.

 

Baeirs also admits to poor writing being part of unintentional shade o the Katrina character. They screwed up the time line making it look like she lied to Ichabod about knowing she was pregnant.

 

Isn't creating a timeline Writing 101? They basically made their character look like a suspicious liar because they made a timeline mistake?  They aren't even tracking the prior events of the show to maintain consistency. Baiers really should have just lied and played it off like , yes, Katrina is hiding things, so they could set her up to turn evil and hopefully die. How many other instances in this show where Katrina appeared suspicious were due to the same kind of shoddy errors? Did any of the people on the writing staff actually study creative writing or script writing of any kind?

Edited January 22, 2015 by savinggrace

[cassandle]

For some reason this makes me think of the South Park episode where they reveal it's manatees who write Family Guy.  I can't imagine why that popped into my head ;)

[ChelseaNH]

I can't understand how you have this amazing response to season one, praising to the rafters the chemistry of your two leads, and your first instinct is to have Katia out there saying "...Season Two is going to be very different from Season One”

 

The same thing happened on Hawaii Five-0, another Kurtzman/Orci show.  Season 1 was a lot of fun and one of the best things about the show was the team dynamic.  Season 2?  The team was all split up and it took them forever to get everyone back together. Soooo annoying.

[DJG1122]

Yeah I can't understand how you have this amazing response to season one, praising to the rafters the chemistry of your two leads, and your first instinct is to have Katia out there saying "...Season Two is going to be very different from Season One” Um, great? We know Fox balked at this supposedly nonexistant sidelining of Abbie as the lead almost immediately, though I still wonder if that didn't make things even worse per Abbie's storylines.

"PW: i can understand that, but u do have to admit, S2 seem to focus way too much on Katrina, Ichatrina.

- i will try, but it's insulting that Abbie only had 1 episode dedicated to her, while S2 has been Katrina the good witch.

abaiers: 100% - it's an arc we wanted 2 try & it didn't catch the way it ws Intended 2. The next eps reflect directions we are going 4"

 

So, what I am understanding is that S1 was awesome because of Tom Mison/Nicole Behaire chemistry but SL writers wanted to try a different arc for S2 with Tom Mison/Katia Winter and it didn't catch on? Old saying in my family "That doesn't even make good running around sense".

[evilmindatwork]

So, what I am understanding is that S1 was awesome because of Tom Mison/Nicole Behaire chemistry but SL writers wanted to try a different arc for S2 with Tom Mison/Katia Winter and it didn't catch on? Old saying in my family "That doesn't even make good running around sense".

 

 

 

I hate to say it, and I am sad to even consider it, but I think it's just plain old racism.  If it had been the other way around-- if Katia had been the lead in S1-- would they have tried to replace the pretty blonde/red-headed leading lady with the African American minor character? Either that, or KW is really well connected and someone powerful pushed for her. I just don't understand, strategically, why they would try to change the lead of a  popular and critically successful show. I understand trying creative and  interesting things with plot, but there's absolutely no reason to change the leads. 

Edited January 22, 2015 by evilmindatwork

[blixie]

 

but I think it's just plain old racism.

I think it's at least implicit bias racism, in the sense that THEY seriously didn't think to themselves that a TEN EPISODE ARC featuring Katrina would be perceived as sidelining Abbie. Ten episodes of a 18 episodes season is not an arc assholes, it's the whole show please stop double speaking your way out of your institutional ignorant ass white privilege racist bullshit.

 

At least this guy w/ Orci/Kurtzman is owning that it did not work, the writing was terrible and they are shifting gears though when you admit all three of those things how anyone is supposed to have faith in what your shifting gears to is question mark. It seems to me Goffman has already tried to blame it all on Hawley, when he truly is the least of the shows problems IMO wasn't a problem at all, he should have been Abbie's unambiguous love interest who never used to fuck her sister. I loved his character actually and how much tension he brought to the witness dynamic, we just needed a tad less of him that's all. He should have an 8 episode arc and then been a recurring bit of......I am trying to conjure a slang term for the white male version of Becky, if there is one I've missed it, I feel like it should be Mark. 

[BigEasygirl]

That thread has me somewhere between extremely and morosely depressed and apoplectic with RAGE.

 

You know - we kept saying that they were trying to replace Abbie with Katrina as the lead and his comments really seem to point to the fact that they were honestly trying Katrina out in the "lead" role (I think the latest episode was to be her grand unveiling as the lead) - if it had worked and ratings had remained steady, Nicole's Abbie would have been out of there.  Katia Winter's comments that S2 would be very different from S1 literally made  me see red.  

 

No - at this point all I will accept is Katrina being killed off and Katia Winter GONE from this show.  And Goffman needs to go too - but if I have to choose - SHE needs to go.  Sure - the issue might still be there - but ratings might keep the fools in check and if she's gone at least I don't have to look at Katrina's blank face on the show anymore.

 

And yes - if Nicole had been front and center and the ratings did this she would be gone from the so show fast your head would spin.  No wonder she's looked so lackluster lately.  I wonder if she saw those quotes from Katia?

 

I am so angry right now.  SO SO angry.

Katrina being killed off is a must have for me especially if that pissant Goffman manages to stay.  Those two can't be on the show at the same time because he will never stop trying to shoehorn her in somewhere...anywhere whether it makes sense or not, and I'm sick this terrible character and the bad acting.

[Amethyst]

She is basically a central character treated as a recurring one. To add insult to injury, one with no dimension. Crane has friends, hobbies and skills. Abbie has a profession and nothing else. It's a huge waste of Nicole Beharie. I feel like she's going through the motions at this point and isn't trying. 

 

What sucks is that Abbie did have interests last season.  Remember her and Crane at the baseball game?  It wasn't just another instance of "Crane vs. the 21st century" it was about seeing Abbie relax and have some fun.  I can't imagine that woman being in this slog of a season.

 

People keep mentioning Empire's success, but it doesn't stop there.  There's Brooklyn 99 (also on Fox!), CW has Jane the Virgin (along with their first Golden Globe), and Shonda Rimes owns the whole Thursday night block.  These shows aren't just popular, they're making serious money.  The TV landscape is changing every year and it's still baffling to me that Goffman is either willfully ignorant to these changes, or just plain dumb.

[methodwriter85]

The biggest thing that Goffman seems ignorant of- guys aren't going to flock to a sci-fi series because you put the busty Swedish woman in tight corsets anymore. That probably would have been true in the 80's and the 90's, but nowadays...sci-fi guys can watch Game of Thrones or Davinci's Demons or whatever and see actual tits, and actual acting talent to go along with it. People have so many choices these days and they're a lot pickier as a result.

[Indi]

And Goffman needs to go too - but if I have to choose - SHE needs to go. 

 

He needs to go too. Look at this amount of pathetic.

[phoenics]

That is some straight effery.

[blixie]

Haha that gif makes me miss Arrested Development! We should start calling Struggle Witch Egg. Her?!

[Limelight]

I don't understand how the show runners didn't see that what made Ichabod interesting was that he was a stranger in a strange land and we were getting to know him through contemporary Abbie. That's what made him interesting, seeing him interact with the modern world as a singular character. Abbie makes Ichabod fun and compelling for me. I'd take a show without Ichabod if I had to but never without Abbie.

My favorite scene this year was the voting scene where Abbie explains to him that two different amendments to the Constitution had to be passed in order to allow her to vote. We were able to see Ichabod complain as he does best about modernity and then Abbie tell him how it is and that the world's a better place now for African Americans and women than in Colonial times. How would he get any of that if he were isolated with Katrina and Abraham? It just changes the entire dynamic and reason for the show and they thought that people would want to watch that show instead? Crazy.

[Sasha]

I just don't understand what has happened to this show. I keep reading all these excuses by the idiots in charge and it makes no sense. I clearly remember one of the idiots saying they had a seven year plan for the witnesses and every single media event was all about the chemistry of Tom and Nicole. Did they just hand everything over to a new group of people?

It seems like these new writers or show runner have never watched the damn show. They don't even know who the lead characters are! That one fool was whining on twitter and asking for someone to give him a timeline so he could keep shit straight. Dude that's your fucking job! You only had 13 episodes the first season. Did you not get the DVD? Stop bitching that it's so hard to write an apocalypse (Buffy had like 7 or 8) or it's too many episodes (you ain't writing The Wire, you loser). Excuses, excuses even on Amercian history. Pick up a damn book or use google, you moron.

At this point I don't care enough to check but has anyone looked at the credits and noticed a huge shift where everyone involved is new? It can't be the same writers and directors from say the first half of season putting season two together can it? Didn't anyone notice this is not the same show? Did anyone notice the lead actress is no longer a young, feisty cop with a heart of gold but some reject from a bad romance novel? You would think someone from costumes and makeup would speak up and say didn't she used to be short, cute and uh darker complected?

I only started watching because in the original promos Tom Mison was hot. I'm shallow and he is really attractive. I stayed because I fell in love with Abby. Even my Mom, who hates anything remotely sci-fi watched the pilot for Tom, said who was that girl? She is so good, I love her. Guess what? My mom, sister and son all stopped watching. I can't believe I'm gonna say but even poor Tom Mison has lost the hot factor. That's just criminal.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Sasha

[DJG1122]

from the abairs twitter responses fromLadyJEsq: interview with Katia Winter 2/4/2014 in the UK-

Katrina has been trapped in purgatory for this season, but Winter reveals that Season Two will see her character take more of a central role. “I’ve been talking to Mark Gothman and Alex Kurtzman a lot about my character for Season Two and there’s some crazy, amazing ideas,” she enthuses. “I was kind of blown away when I heard what they were planning to do…Season Two is going to be very different from Season One”

http://www.scifinow.co.uk/interviews/sleepy-hollow-season-2-will-be-crazy-and-very-different/

Apparently, it wasn't just Goffman, but Kurtzman too, who wanted her in a more central role. In an interview by EW 11/25/2014 with Goffman, he was asked 'if he had known of the response to the sidelining of Abbie in S2 back when they first startd shooting S2, would that have changed anything?'-he avoided answering the question.

It appears that even before shooting started, Goffman and Kurtzman did plan for Katrina to take over Abbie's role.

I thought it was interesting in the Tom Mison interview when he said that when something new is tried and it works it's kept but if it doesn't work, it's twisted. Sounds to me like Katrina isn't going anywhere but turns bad, so we'll have just as much of her on screen. Just not with Ichabod.

[Sasha]

But the entire concept of the show was something new and it worked! And they didn't keep it. They twisted what worked into something horrible. Just look at Headless. That was the coolest villian to come along in forever and they turned him into a love sick wimp with a goddamn head! Seriously? Who could be so stupid? I want names. I want to bitch slap some sense into somebody. Have they moved to Atlanta? That's a day trip for me. Let me smack the stupid out of some people.

Edited January 23, 2015 by Sasha

[pcta]

from the abairs twitter responses fromLadyJEsq: interview with Katia Winter 2/4/2014 in the UK-Katrina has been trapped in purgatory for this season, but Winter reveals that Season Two will see her character take more of a central role. “I’ve been talking to Mark Gothman and Alex Kurtzman a lot about my character for Season Two and there’s some crazy, amazing ideas,” she enthuses. “I was kind of blown away when I heard what they were planning to do…Season Two is going to be very different from Season One”http://www.scifinow.co.uk/interviews/sleepy-hollow-season-2-will-be-crazy-and-very-different/Apparently, it wasn't just Goffman, but Kurtzman too, who wanted her in a more central role. .

Unbloodybelievable. What tone deaf, arrogant idiots. I've not yet watched the last episode and only skimmed the previous one. I'm out until I hear what the changes are in epi 15.

Edited January 23, 2015 by pcta

[DeLurker]

But the entire concept of the show was something new and it worked! And they didn't keep it. They twisted what worked into something horrible. Just look at Headless. That was the coolest villian to come along in forever and they turned him into a love sick wimp with a goddamn head! Seriously? Who could be so stupid? I want names. I want to bitch slap some sense into somebody. Have they moved to Atlanta? That's a day trip for me. Let me smack the stupid out of some people.

Best take some supplements and condition because you've got a lot of smackin' to do.  I'll buy you lunch though!

[Sasha]

Thanks, DeLurker! Gas is cheap and I have some vacation days save up.

The other thing that just chaps my ass is the constant complaining that it's too hard to write all these episodes. You started with four damn horsemen of the apocalypse. One per season ass butts! Don't tell me Headless wasn't good enough for 13 episodes. And by the way, does an atheist like me need to explain purgatory? You go there to be cleansed of your sins and then your ass gets into heaven. Katrina doesn't get to go to Sleepy Hollow. She helps the witnesses and then gets to go into the light. Ichabod might be a little sad but happy she has been saved. Now she can annoy some angels and get off my screen!

Edited January 23, 2015 by Sasha

[BestestAuntEver]

The above article makes my stomach turn. These idiot asshats tried to imply certain viewers were crazy conspiracy theorists, haters and/or reckless shippers. They disrespected and disregarded certain fans. Then wanted us to be stupid enough to trust them and continue to watch while they continued to devalue our concerns and requests.

Ugh, the bait and switch and tired worn out black woman tropes are well known by many. Why wouldn't we know or see what was happening.

They might as well throw in the towel, this show is done. No one is going to trust, believe or have faith in the current showrunners or writers.

I'm just so disgusted by the whole BTS crap that occurred and destroyed this show.

[blixie]

 

And by the way, does an atheist like me need to explain purgatory? You go there to be cleansed of your sins and then your ass gets into heaven. Katrina doesn't get to go to Sleepy Hollow.

Yeah I mean wholly aside form the religious aspect of it I remember thinking as much crazy plot crap as the show as slinging, Katrina, who they claimed was burned at the stake, and who was in Purgatory a place for SOULS, was in fact a corporeal entity trapped there.  NOOOOOOO. NOPE. It was one step beyond and it was the first thing to annoy the shit out of me about the writing, still I was getting my Abbie and Ichabbie feels on and could mostly overlook it. I will never understand how you think to replace the everything that is Nicole's Abbie with that useless sack of red hair. 

[phoenics]

from the abairs twitter responses fromLadyJEsq: interview with Katia Winter 2/4/2014 in the UK-

Katrina has been trapped in purgatory for this season, but Winter reveals that Season Two will see her character take more of a central role. “I’ve been talking to Mark Gothman and Alex Kurtzman a lot about my character for Season Two and there’s some crazy, amazing ideas,” she enthuses. “I was kind of blown away when I heard what they were planning to do…Season Two is going to be very different from Season One”

http://www.scifinow.co.uk/interviews/sleepy-hollow-season-2-will-be-crazy-and-very-different/

Apparently, it wasn't just Goffman, but Kurtzman too, who wanted her in a more central role. In an interview by EW 11/25/2014 with Goffman, he was asked 'if he had known of the response to the sidelining of Abbie in S2 back when they first startd shooting S2, would that have changed anything?'-he avoided answering the question.

It appears that even before shooting started, Goffman and Kurtzman did plan for Katrina to take over Abbie's role.

I thought it was interesting in the Tom Mison interview when he said that when something new is tried and it works it's kept but if it doesn't work, it's twisted. Sounds to me like Katrina isn't going anywhere but turns bad, so we'll have just as much of her on screen. Just not with Ichabod.

 

I literally feel sick to my stomach.

[cassandle]

Yeah I mean wholly aside form the religious aspect of it I remember thinking as much crazy plot crap as the show as slinging, Katrina, who they claimed was burned at the stake, and who was in Purgatory a place for SOULS, was in fact a corporeal entity trapped there.  NOOOOOOO. NOPE. It was one step beyond and it was the first thing to annoy the shit out of me about the writing, still I was getting my Abbie and Ichabbie feels on and could mostly overlook it. I will never understand how you think to replace the everything that is Nicole's Abbie with that useless sack of red hair. 

 

I accepted this premise by thinking, "Well, if Dean can go to Purgatory in Supernatural, sure, why not Katrina?"  However, that was when I was willing to set aside logic to watch a bonkers-fun show.  Now?  I will nitpick this thing to death because I have lost all affection for it.

[CinnamonCW]

from the abairs twitter responses fromLadyJEsq: interview with Katia Winter 2/4/2014 in the UK-

Katrina has been trapped in purgatory for this season, but Winter reveals that Season Two will see her character take more of a central role. “I’ve been talking to Mark Gothman and Alex Kurtzman a lot about my character for Season Two and there’s some crazy, amazing ideas,” she enthuses. “I was kind of blown away when I heard what they were planning to do…Season Two is going to be very different from Season One”

http://www.scifinow.co.uk/interviews/sleepy-hollow-season-2-will-be-crazy-and-very-different/

Apparently, it wasn't just Goffman, but Kurtzman too, who wanted her in a more central role. In an interview by EW 11/25/2014 with Goffman, he was asked 'if he had known of the response to the sidelining of Abbie in S2 back when they first startd shooting S2, would that have changed anything?'-he avoided answering the question.

 

I want to see this for myself but can't seem to find it anywhere.

Is someone else able to locate this?

[DJG1122]

Full address-

Link here --> http://www.scifinow.co.uk/interviews/sleepy-hollow-season-2-will-be-crazy-and-very-different/

Still didn't print out the whole address but that should take you there
Still isn't working-go upthread to phoenics' last post-that one takes you there

Edited January 23, 2015 by HalcyonDays
Fixed URL link location

[Carrie Ann]

I want to see this for myself but can't seem to find it anywhere.

Is someone else able to locate this?

 

The 11/25 EW article with Goffman is here. It's...infuriating.

 

And actually I have to say that that old Scifi.com interview with KW didn't bother me. It's from a year ago. And at that time, you know, they kept KW around for a reason in S1, so obviously at least some of the other EPs were interested in telling more story with her. And actually KW's comments about the shipping stuff were pretty good and diplomatic. And I actually agree with her that (back when I was still watching this mess), I wanted to string out that flirty friendship dynamic with Ichabbie for awhile, before any kind of actual dating would happen.