The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[Limelight]

That Sandra, Zanza lady is bitter.  I encountered her early on in the Katrina mess on another board, before I knew she was nuts.  When I defended Abbie and wrote about being annoyed at Katrina, I was accused of being racist towards white people and "sticking with my kind" as well as, my favorite, "entitled" man that lady throws that one out there in every thread.  When I wrote back that I was essentially as white as a paper plate, so how can I be racists towards white people?  I sort of joked that disliking Katrina was like a Kumbaya moment that brought the sexes, races and creeds together.  She then told me I was a "white apologist" who "didn't know my place."   She really took it so seriously and was so angry like if Ichabbie happen her whole world would come crashing down.  I remember  thinking that this was a highly charged fandom.   It sounds odd but you pick your sides with this one and I'm glad I chose the sane side!

 

I think what really bothered me then and still does, is how they put down Nicole.  I love her, I've never seen her in anything but this show but she's so captivating and adorable. No matter where she goes, I'm a fan for life!  I kept hearing on other sites from the angry Katrina fans (not all but some) about how Nicole's a bad actress or shows no emotion, is too hard or whatever and for some reason I want to punch them.  Maybe it's because Nicole is so tiny but it bugs me when people say bad things about her and I want to defend her!  I just have to let it go but it's pretty obvious who's the capable, wonderful leading actress on this show and it's the one that didn't dissolve into ash and blow away in the season finale.

 

I was happy to see that Nicole received a lot of great reviews for the season finale. I know Tom Mison has the showy part but Nicole is so great as the cornerstone of the series, as all the relationships revolve around her and I love how she makes Abbie fierce, smart., funny, loving, snarky and especially, capable.  So many female characters on TV or the movies are just stupid or break a heel when they run from the bad guys but not Abbie, that's why I love her and Nicole, who makes her such a great female role model. 

[AmandaPanda]

Let's get back on topic, everyone. Most of you seem to be in agreement that the SpoilerTV reviews are poorly written. This thread is about discussing what went wrong with the show. You can discuss reviews and media coverage in the Media thread. Thank you.

[HalcyonDays]

I just wanted to comment on two of the little nitpicky things I thought of, that pissed off a lot of people in this season (and kinda last).

 

First, the whole "Abbie is supporting Ichabod." Yup, she was, but I don't think she spent much cash on him. Food and clothing, basically. The cabin was rent free (ok, utilities) but other than food, some toileties, and a couple changes of outfit, she didn't spend much, I don't think.

 

However....Katrina blew up Abbie's $20,000+ Jeep SUV. Just remember that. She blew up Abbie's expensive car. SMH.

 

Second, complaints that Abbie lost a lot (she did), what with her mother going crazy, Jenny at Tarrytown, her personal issues, etc, but Ichabod lost nothing. His kid and wife were with him. Well, not anymore.  At this moment, Crane has lost his career, the life that he knew, his wife and his kid (not like he knew him). The slate is clean. Just wanted to point this out.

 

Now to quote Mison in an interview somewhere, Crane has a "new family now". Abbie, Jenny and Irving. I'm very happy about this and I love that he said that. His new 21st century family (so preferrably over the old one, I tell you....). I want to see season 3 and interactions with his new family. This is how SH will so right itself!

[Sparkling Beth]

Let's get back on topic, everyone. Most of you seem to be in agreement that the SpoilerTV reviews are poorly written. This thread is about discussing what went wrong with the show. You can discuss reviews and media coverage in the Media thread. Thank you.

Is there a General Discussion page somewhere?  Sometimes we do get off-topic, and I find myself wishing that there was a thread that allowed us to careen from topic to topic (as long as it's still about Sleepy Hollow, of course) without having to back out of one thread and take our new thoughts to another thread.

[johntfs]

For me a lot of the problem of this season is that it was like a garden that was left untended after the seeds were planted.

 

Seed 1 Headless with a Head:  Necromancer was a cool episode because of what it taught us about Headless.  Headless wasn't some kind of demon/robot servant of Moloch.  It turns out that there's a person inside that cranially-challenged form, and a person who bitterly dislikes Ichabod and yet has a massive torch for Katrina.  There was a lot that could've been done with that and wasn't along with stuff that was done which shouldn't have been.

 

Seed 2 Hawley: For me it's telling that the best Hawley episode was the one where he didn't even appear.  The bit where Jenny is digging the bullets out of the corpse and she cusses him for not telling her she needed to leave one of the bullets inside it was pretty awesome.  The idea that Jenny knew this offscreen dude who was semi-reliable in terms of getting her stuff would've been cool and helped build the idea that Sleepy Hollow was a larger, realer place where the characters had lives outside of what we see onscreen.  Figure if it had been done this way, viewers would've wanted to meet Hawley instead of going "Oh dear Jesus, not this asshole again."

 

Seed 3 Henry/Jeremy:  This was a great "Holy Shit!" reveal to close out Season One.  Still some of his characterization didn't make a lot of sense.  Henry was there with Ichabod when Ichabod killed the Golem.  Henry saw Ichabod's anger and grief at losing his son without ever meeting him.  I wish that had provoked him to be a little more ambiguous toward Ichabod, instead of utterly malicious.  Also, having the first few episodes not be part of a "bring in Moloch" fetch quest would've been nice too.

 

Seed 4 Katrina:  This characters was just one fuckup after another.  In Season One, we had a kind of a handle on Katrina, I thought.  Katrina was a powerful witch with the mission of bringing Ichabod over to fight on the side of America and ultimately to martyr himself in the course of killing the Horseman of Death.  However, she came to truly love him and instead bound him (and effectively, the Horseman) into a long sleep, for which she was banished to Purgatory as punishment..  So, spy-witch with a heart of gold, fine.  Ichabod wants to save her from Purgatory, also fine.  Once that's actually accomplished, things spin out of control and it feels like the writers/producers have no idea what to do with this character.

 

But there's so much stuff that could have been done.  On the comedy front would be Katrina Crane vs. the 21st century.  The fun part of Ichabod vs 21 is him fuming a little, speechifying and then finding something he likes despite himself.  The fun part of Katrina would be her using her powers to ignore/circumvent those 21st century difficulties and then Abbie/Ichabod trying to explain that feeding a hungry homeless person by causing a nearby ATM to spit money all over the dude is wrong.  Like that.  Or how even when it's kind of an emergency, you're not supposed to change the traffic lights.

 

Plus, turning her "evil" becomes a more natural thing  if her arrogance and desire to "help" push Katrina in the direction that "these muggles need Witchkind to lead them, else they'll destroy themselves."

Edited February 27, 2015 by johntfs

[jhlipton]

I disagree re Seed 3 and Seed 4.

I like the idea of "Henry the Sin Eater" being consumed by the sins, until they eat him. Much more potential, and much deeper than Jeremy.

And "Katrina the Wacky Witch" just doesn't do it for me. I grew up with Bewitched, thanks, I've no desire to see it recast with Winters.

Edited February 27, 2015 by OnceSane
removed bashing of appearance

[RiddleyWalker]

For me a lot of the problem of this season is that it was like a garden that was left untended after the seeds were planted.

 

Seed 1 Headless with a Head:  Necromancer was a cool episode because of what it taught us about Headless.  Headless wasn't some kind of demon/robot servant of Moloch.  It turns out that there's a person inside that cranially-challenged form, and a person who bitterly dislikes Ichabod and yet has a massive torch for Katrina.  There was a lot that could've been done with that and wasn't along with stuff that was done which shouldn't have been.

 

Seed 2 Hawley: For me it's telling that the best Hawley episode was the one where he didn't even appear.  The bit where Jenny is digging the bullets out of the corpse and she cusses him for not telling her she needed to leave one of the bullets inside it was pretty awesome.  The idea that Jenny knew this offscreen dude who was semi-reliable in terms of getting her stuff would've been cool and helped build the idea that Sleepy Hollow was a larger, realer place where the characters had lives outside of what we see onscreen.  Figure if it had been done this way, viewers would've wanted to meet Hawley instead of going "Oh dear Jesus, not this asshole again."

 

Seed 3 Henry/Jeremy:  This was a great "Holy Shit!" reveal to close out Season One.  Still some of his characterization didn't make a lot of sense.  Henry was there with Ichabod when Ichabod killed the Golem.  Henry saw Ichabod's anger and grief at losing his son without ever meeting him.  I wish that had provoked him to be a little more ambiguous toward Ichabod, instead of utterly malicious.  Also, having the first few episodes not be part of a "bring in Moloch" fetch quest would've been nice too.

 

Seed 4 Katrina:  This characters was just one fuckup after another.  In Season One, we had a kind of a handle on Katrina, I thought.  Katrina was a powerful witch with the mission of bringing Ichabod over to fight on the side of America and ultimately to martyr himself in the course of killing the Horseman of Death.  However, she came to truly love him and instead bound him (and effectively, the Horseman) into a long sleep, for which she was banished to Purgatory as punishment..  So, spy-witch with a heart of gold, fine.  Ichabod wants to save her from Purgatory, also fine.  Once that's actually accomplished, things spin out of control and it feels like the writers/producers have no idea what to do with this character.

 

But there's so much stuff that could have been done.  On the comedy front would be Katrina Crane vs. the 21st century.  The fun part of Ichabod vs 21 is him fuming a little, speechifying and then finding something he likes despite himself.  The fun part of Katrina would be her using her powers to ignore/circumvent those 21st century difficulties and then Abbie/Ichabod trying to explain that feeding a hungry homeless person by causing a nearby ATM to spit money all over the dude is wrong.  Like that.  Or how even when it's kind of an emergency, you're not supposed to change the traffic lights.

 

Plus, turning her "evil" becomes a more natural thing  if her arrogance and desire to "help" push Katrina in the direction that "these muggles need Witchkind to lead them, else they'll destroy themselves."

This is very interesting , @johntfs. It really makes me think about the direction the show took and the direction it should take in the future.

 

I agree with #2. Hawley could have been expanded in a way that was interesting and made the world of SH larger and made the characters lives seem bigger than the bits we see on the show. 

 

The other examples, I think, are moves that were doomed from the start.

 

#1 Headless should never have been "humanized". Doing this eliminated the implacable, relentless, evil, killing machine we dreaded in S1 and made him a love-sick colonial doling out quince tea to the woman he fancies. Possibly the worst move of the show----EVER.

 

#3 Henry revealed as Jeremy. Even an ambiguous relationship with Ichabod couldn't help this. John Noble was fantastic as the "Sin Eater" who was ambiguous, creepy and mysterious with some interesting supernatural powers. But making him Ichabod's son, Jeremy eliminated all that. Even if his relationship towards his father was more ambiguous, it would still be part of the sappy CFD. Sorry..

 

#4 Katrina… I was really hoping Katrina would be expanded and be something that adds to the show, I must confess. I knew she couldn't continue to be Crane's one and only love and expected them to separate at some point, but the way she was written and acted was far from what I envisaged. I had hoped for some of the humor you described but after an episode or two, it was clear that the character, actor, and the writing were incapable of that. Turning her "evil" early (and offing her early) would have been best in hind site...

Edited February 27, 2015 by RiddleyWalker

[DeLurker]

For me a lot of the problem of this season is that it was like a garden that was left untended after the seeds were planted.

...<snip>...

Seed 4 Katrina:  This characters was just one fuckup after another.  In Season One, we had a kind of a handle on Katrina, I thought.  Katrina was a powerful witch with the mission of bringing Ichabod over to fight on the side of America and ultimately to martyr himself in the course of killing the Horseman of Death.  However, she came to truly love him and instead bound him (and effectively, the Horseman) into a long sleep, for which she was banished to Purgatory as punishment..  So, spy-witch with a heart of gold, fine.  Ichabod wants to save her from Purgatory, also fine.  Once that's actually accomplished, things spin out of control and it feels like the writers/producers have no idea what to do with this character.

 

But there's so much stuff that could have been done.  On the comedy front would be Katrina Crane vs. the 21st century.  The fun part of Ichabod vs 21 is him fuming a little, speechifying and then finding something he likes despite himself.  The fun part of Katrina would be her using her powers to ignore/circumvent those 21st century difficulties and then Abbie/Ichabod trying to explain that feeding a hungry homeless person by causing a nearby ATM to spit money all over the dude is wrong.  Like that.  Or how even when it's kind of an emergency, you're not supposed to change the traffic lights.

 

Plus, turning her "evil" becomes a more natural thing  if her arrogance and desire to "help" push Katrina in the direction that "these muggles need Witchkind to lead them, else they'll destroy themselves."

Untended garden is a very apt analogy (metaphor?  Never could keep those straight).

 

I don't remember Katrina having a mission (see bolded text) as you describe.  I thought it was Abraham that had been the one who convinved Ich to change sides.  Of course, my memory is sketchy...in any event, Katrina as a character had potential but the hamfisted tone deaf manner which they went this season makes me closed to even entertaining possibilities.  Unfortunate.

[johntfs]

Untended garden is a very apt analogy (metaphor?  Never could keep those straight).

 

I don't remember Katrina having a mission (see bolded text) as you describe.  I thought it was Abraham that had been the one who convinved Ich to change sides.  Of course, my memory is sketchy...in any event, Katrina as a character had potential but the hamfisted tone deaf manner which they went this season makes me closed to even entertaining possibilities.  Unfortunate.

 

Katrina was very much the one who started the ball rolling on Crane switching to the Colonial side, though it was the murder of the prisoner Crane freed by something that was an obvious supernatural monster (and his commanding officer) that sealed the deal.  We saw all this in the Season One episode "The Sin Eater" which also introduced John Noble as Henry Parish.

 

Now that I think about it, I kind of wish Henry had simply been this guy with this "Sin-eating" gift who had been possessed by the spirit of Jeremy Crane.  That way when Jeremy was eventually exorcised, we could have kept John Noble in what was initially a pretty cool role.

 

For my own part, I'm feeling pretty charitable as far as Katia Winter's acting goes.  The worse you can really say is that she didn't elevate the writing for Katrina.  That said, I don't even think the love child of Scarlett Johansson and Helen Mirren could have acted well enough to elevate that character.  Katrina was the writing/directing version of what happens on Star Trek in a "transporter malfuction."

[pcta]

All right I should be over it already. But, I've been binge watching Fringe and it keeps reminding me how badly they used Noble in SH

[tennisgurl]

I have coined a new term that I will be using when discussing a particular issue I see happening in a lot of TV shows this season: Sleepy Hallow Syndrome. 

 

SHS is when the writers and creators of a show/book/movie/whatever decides to inexplicably focus on one aspect of their product that THEY absolutely love, but their audience does not. At all. Its a bit like Lana Lang from Smallville, where everyone in the show totally adores the writers pet character, and they continue to keep writing them stories. However, SHS is less about others characters reactions to the pet character, and more about how much time is given to the pet character/story-line, and how other, better characters and stories are pushed to the side to make room for added screen time to the favored character/story. This will come at the cost of what people actually liked about the show in the first place, making the pet the new star, and leaving fans confused as to what show they're actually watching now. What they loved about the show is now being replaced by something they hate, as the writers gush on and on about the pet.

 

SHS can sink any show, and that's what makes it dangerous. Its one thing to have a Lana character or a Wesley Crusher character, who is written as being perfect and wonderful even though they pretty much suck, and only the writers love them, its another to retailer a previously successful show around a pointless supporting character or subplot, changing the very thing about the show that made it work in the first place. If untreated, SHS can lead to angry tweets, long tumbler posts, bad reviews,crashing ratings, and, possibly, cancellation.

 

Lets hope the new season has gotten medicated.  

[MissAlmond]

Never mind.  Move along.

Edited March 19, 2015 by MissAlmond

[phoenics]

LOL - I know it's much more than that, but for me you can tie about 80% of S2's issues and problems back to her... either in 1) giving her an expanded story (which sucks time from Jenny/Irving, 2) trying to make her equal in importance to Abbie, which is just wrong, 3) giving her more stakes with Henry (the foolish redemption storyline), 4) the "make her sexy" costume garbage (No, just no)... 5) turning the BAMF Headless Horseman into a simp ... 6) giving her idiotic and misogynistic story lines to expand the role which kills the show pace, as well as trying to copy Ichabbie moments (WTF?) ... 7) not killing her off in the first place and leaving the shady stuff unresolved, but continuing to try to convince the fans that she's both "good" and that Ichatrina is "epic love" ... 8) dumbing Crane down and making him an asshole so that she can have the foolish redemption storyline... and also 9) disrupting the chemistry between the two leads and the rest of the cast...

I know some could argue that the Henry stuff has to do with John Noble, but I honestly think the issue started BEFORE him - I think he was brought onboard as the Crane son in an attempt to expand the entire Crane Family - but the source of the desire to expand the family was for Katia Winter's benefit (Goffman) ... and the show's detriment.

I hate this show, lol. I really should just quit.

I know it might be in bad form to quote myself - but this is what I posted in the beginning of this thread and the writers have fixed it all.

Bring on Season 3!

So excited.

[HalcyonDays]

 MissAlmond said: I think we should make it clear that it was a subset of Ichatrina fans who were disgusting.  There were people who were geninue fans of Ichatrina and even I have said, I would have kept  Crazy PTA Mama Bear Katrina for Season 3.  But I doubt this subset really were fans of Ichatrina anyway.  IMO they pretended to be but what they really wanted was for SH to never, ever, never, nope, not going to happen, no never, ever, - did I say never? - hint Ichabod and Abbie could one day become a romantic couple.  Not that all viewers who didn't want that to happen were like this subset. There are are certainly fans who want and enjoy Ichabod and Abbie strictly as partners and friends.  However, this subset used that as their cover.  For the subset,  "can't we have a show without romance?" "brother/sister chemistry" was simply pretense.  They went along and tweeted "with you there, buddy!" to the producers/writers because they didn't care if the ratings plunged as long as their true agenda was safe.  

 

Now no one could expect the producers/writers to know this. Love them or hate them, they do have show to run.  It wasn't until after the finale when the subset really lost it and started posting,  and even tweeting, nasty, racist comments to the writers/producers that their true colors were exposed.  That, besides the stepping in of FOX, probably was the final "aha" moment to make Kim and Metzner (Goffman, OTOH, was lining up his next  gig and wasn't wasting time with craziness) see the light on who this subset was really was.  They knew then who the true fans really were and yes, they're thanking us, as they should because we saved them from SH having "that" sort of fandom.   But those of us who watched SH from the beginning and either posted or lurked on different forums knew this subset for what they were all along.  They could be spotted immediately with their use of the word "Crabbie".  Now they're pretending all they wanted was a sweet, romantic story between a married couple and the "Crabbies" ruined it for them by (apparently) seizing control of FOX and holding them hostage until changes were made.  AS IF FOX as a network had no power and couldn't either keep SH as it was or simply cancel it altogether.   This group is so vile, it makes me wish Season 3  opened with an X rated love scene between Ichabod and Abbie they would hear about when it crashed the Internet and their heads would explode.  But I'm better than that LOL. 

 

Brought over from Media:

 

Yeah, it was definiately a subset of fans that were vile. There is nothing wrong with wanting a friends only between the leads. My only thing is how could you see NO chemistry between the leads, but I guess the same way that they claimed they COULD see chemistry between Crane and the wife.

 

My only confusion is this: What really WAS their agenda. I still have no clue. Some spouted on about the perfect love, how their love was amazing (blech), that Crane and the wife were perfect together, yadda yadda. Some said they say only friends or brother/sister between Crane and Abbie. I KNOW that some DID NOT want an interracial couple together. But some I really could understand that they wanted what they considered the perfect Harlequin fairy tale romance. I still really don't have a handle on what the more vocal crazy ones wanted. I mean, did they even watch the show? Because they complained about Abbie being on screen, yet season 1 it's mostly her, so totaly confused.

 

I disagree with the finale bringing out the racists, only because I dealt with them, saw what they posted all of the way back around the episode Deliverance, and even before that. That term "loud blacks" was from back then, along with the Ichabbie fandom being considered entitled, and them cackling over how upset we were that Abbie was being sidelined, and the wife was pushed to the foreground. The finale just made them even more vocal.

 

The interesting thing is that I (and many others) pointed out to some of them that the route they were taking was leading to a show cancellation, due to the low ratings (back during Deliverance) and they said "Let Goffman follow his path" because it obviously suited their agenda. So it was no surprised that they started the cancel SH hashtag. The majority of the bads ones are represented on that shittyhollow tumblr. Terrible terrible people but I would say a small subset of the small number of people who like the wife or CFD.

 

As for your last sentence about the X-rated love scene. I'm not better than that *grin* - Hell yeah! Bring it ON!

[MissAlmond]

 

I disagree with the finale bringing out the racists, only because I dealt with them, saw what they posted all of the way back around the episode Deliverance, and even before that. That term "loud blacks" was from back then, along with the Ichabbie fandom being considered entitled, and them cackling over how upset we were that Abbie was being sidelined, and the wife was pushed to the foreground. The finale just made them even more vocal.

 

   Oh yes, I knew they posted.  That's why we knew them for what they were.  What I do doubt is that the producers/writers connected the dots on how open and vile these people really were all along.  As someone writing/producing a show, you have other things to do; it wouldn't surprise me if interns were the ones browsing over forums and we all know how young interns can be.  IMO, it took FOX stepping in and the finale for them to throw off the masks which made those in charge really see them for what they were. 

 

 

My only confusion is this: What really WAS their agenda. I still have no clue. Some spouted on about the perfect love, how their love was amazing (blech), that Crane and the wife were perfect together, yadda yadda. Some said they say only friends or brother/sister between Crane and Abbie. I KNOW that some DID NOT want an interracial couple together. But some I really could understand that they wanted what they considered the perfect Harlequin fairy tale romance. I still really don't have a handle on what the more vocal crazy ones wanted. I mean, did they even watch the show? Because they complained about Abbie being on screen, yet season 1 it's mostly her, so totaly confused.

 

  The ones who really wanted a Harlequin fairy tale romance, I believe and I don't think they had any agenda other than that.  But the subset I'm talking about?  The comment you made that I bolded is indeed the answer.  It always was.  Notice how they always claimed Ichabod/Katrina was canon due to the short story when any schoolyard who has read Washington Irving's  knows this isn't true?  They watched to make sure the show never put Ichabod and Abbie together and to do what it took to stop it if they sensed the show dared go in that direction.  Don't believe their "We wouldn't mind Ichabod with Jenny, they have chemistry" spiel.  Like their "brother/sister, only wanting two leads to be friends, wanting a married couple love story" comments, it's only a coverup to hide what they never ever wanted to happen: An interracial Ichabbie pairing, which is why they insist upon using the word "Crabbie". 

 

 

The interesting thing is that I (and many others) pointed out to some of them that the route they were taking was leading to a show cancellation, due to the low ratings (back during Deliverance) and they said "Let Goffman follow his path" because it obviously suited their agenda. So it was no surprised that they started the cancel SH hashtag. The majority of the bads ones are represented on that shittyhollow tumblr. Terrible terrible people but I would say a small subset of the small number of people who like the wife or CFD.

 

 See, Halycon Days.  You do know the truth about their agenda.  They spelled it out for them.  There's no way in hell they would have said "Let Goffman follow his path" if he had suddenly came out and said:  "I've looked at the tapes again and damn, it's clear Ichabod and Abbie love each other very, very much.  I mean real deep love, folks.  I'm talking hot, I'm sure FOX will fine me for showing it,  love.  I'm testing positions with my wife and trust me, she's a very happy woman these days.  This is the Gomez and Morticia for 21st century network TV! Bring on Season 3!"   

 

FTR - the "only" people I'm calling out on this are this subset.   Even that IchabodCraneRPG doesn't belong to this group, that person you keep the police on speed dial to deal with.  But that subset?  Vile, nasty people. 

Edited March 19, 2015 by MissAlmond

[DearEvette]

So I was watching Season 1 eps. and just finished The Sandman episode.

 

In that ep.  there is a character named Seamus Duncan.  He is Native American.  He owns a car dealership called 'Geronimotors' and he was cited for pollution, dumping stuff in the river.

 

In just that one walk on character we have something clever, subversive, funny and a pop culturist referential dream.  And the actor nailed it all. 

 

The existence of Seamus Duncan, coming out of nowhere, is something that  nerds and inveterate tv watchers would chuckle in delight over.  And did.

 

Remember the chopped off sign in the Pilot?  The Horseman Crossing sign that got it's head chopped off by Reverend Knapp in a blink and you miss it shot?  That sort of sly cleverness  & wink-wink we are in on our fun -- along with the existence of someone like Seamus Duncan is what was missing in S2.

[paisley]

So strange- I watched the Sandman ep last night, trying to satisfy a strong SH craving. I loved Seamus Duncan. Such a complete character. Damn I miss Season 1 so much.

[MissAlmond]

So I was watching Season 1 eps. and just finished The Sandman episode.

 

In that ep.  there is a character named Seamus Duncan.  He is Native American.  He owns a car dealership called 'Geronimotors' and he was cited for pollution, dumping stuff in the river.

 

In just that one walk on character we have something clever, subversive, funny and a pop culturist referential dream.  And the actor nailed it all. 

 

The existence of Seamus Duncan, coming out of nowhere, is something that  nerds and inveterate tv watchers would chuckle in delight over.  And did.

 

Remember the chopped off sign in the Pilot?  The Horseman Crossing sign that got it's head chopped off by Reverend Knapp in a blink and you miss it shot?  That sort of sly cleverness  & wink-wink we are in on our fun -- along with the existence of someone like Seamus Duncan is what was missing in S2.

 

      Yes, yes!  I remember it all!  I loved "For the Triumph of Evil" and still have it on my DVR.  I kept waiting for Seamus Duncan to pop up again - you know as one of the townspeople with a "layer of knowledge" - but instead, nothing.   Now that SH is rebooting and taking cues from Season 1, maybe somebody will remember and bring him back. 

 

[caseylane]

Now that SH is rebooting and taking cues from Season 1, maybe somebody will remember and bring him back. 

 

Especially since the crumbs were laid by Ben Franklin that there are people that know about the struggle. He would be a good one to bring in an occasional episode.

[jhlipton]

Let's tweet Clifton Campbell:

Please bring Seamus Duncan S1E3 back for guest spots. GREAT character!

 

I did, then added a tweet of support.

[MissAlmond]

 

Let's tweet Clifton Campbell:

Please bring Seamus Duncan S1E3 back for guest spots. GREAT character!

I did, then added a tweet of support.

 

 

 

I'm not on Twitter (read only public comments), but I’m 100% behind you and hope SH listens. 

 

 

John Noble’s recent comments makes me believe that my more calmed down thoughts on might have been closer to the truth.  SH may have been so pleased and smug with themselves with the Great Reveal of Season 1, that nobody really thought of how to move forward after the adrenaline rush was gone.  The meandering writing of Season 2 did feel like the writers kept trying and trying and trying to make something work.  If they did have a plan, they certainly didn’t know how to execute it.  They should count themselves lucky FOX did step in because, by focusing, they managed to once again evoke the feel of Season 1.

 

 

There does seem to be have in shift in attitude with the writers and I hope it’s due to Clifton Campbell putting things right and not just about writers saving their jobs.  My wish is Clifton Campbell had a private conversation with the SH writers and told them how lucky they were.  That unlike "The Glades", where show and fans were happy, there was no love from the network.  That FOX has given them a second chance and they need to use it wisely.   I'm hoping Campbell told them that instead of simply commenting about not knowing what made SH work or apparently their own fanbase, that they take the time the learn the answers to those questions.  Because knowing why fans tuned in to your show to begin with explains why they later felt SH wasn't the show they signed up for. 

 

I’m hoping Campbell told the writers that keeping Ichabod and Abbie together as the main focus isn't fan pandering, it’s what makes the show work.  As does the diversity of Andy, Luke, and a towns person such as Seamus Duncan.  Campbell should even point out the lesson of Katrina: That by the time they finally got what worked with her character right, fans AND critics had had enough.  I’m hoping Campbell said major mistakes such as that must not happen again. 

I’m also hoping Campbell schools these writers on social media. Getting into a snit when fans question some of your decisions not “true fans” is a huge no.  Also, people who start tweeting that upset fans are  “thugs” need to put on “Ignore” ASAP and bluntly told why.  The last thing the fandom of SH needs is a repeat of that nonsense.

Edited March 29, 2015 by MissAlmond

[Moonsky]

Season two bored me so much that I had to stop weekly live viewing after the mid-season finale. I said that if I decided to view any other season two episodes live then it would only be the last two episodes because that was when changes were expected to really take place since they weren’t shot yet. I also said that after the season was over, I would only watch any other second half episodes besides the last two after I read reviews about them & that’s exactly what I ended up doing.

 

Thankfully the writing improved a bit after the producers/writing staff could no longer ignore the “haters” because they didn’t get onboard with their genius writing unlike those they regarded as “true fans” that were telling them exactly what they wanted to hear even if it meant the quality of the show was spiraling down the toilet. Even after live watching the two part season finale (“Awakening” & “Tempus Fugit”) & reading reviews from fans/critics about other episodes, I’ve only been able to work up enough interest to watch “Kali Yuga” mainly because I read that there was beginnings of real talk between Abbie & Ichabod about the current state of their partnership (plus for the karaoke scenes & since the writers remembered both of the witnesses had family members on the show, so Jenny was also given significant screen time as well) & “What Lies Beneath” mostly because I like Sharif Atkins & it’s been a while since I watched him in anything.

 

The other episodes in the second half of the season that I still haven’t watched may end up staying unwatched since it really didn’t stop me from understanding what took place in the season finale or I may view them when I’m really bored & have nothing else to do with my time. If this show had a real “show bible” like other scifi/fantasy shows, myself & others wouldn’t have had such an easy time skipping a chunk of episodes without much difficulty in picking up again at any time & still understanding what was happening, so that in of itself should tell these writers how weak their mythology ended up becoming. There are people on social media who have watched every episode this season advising others that tuned out early in season two but are thinking about watching again after hearing about what happened in the season finale on which episodes they can skip so that they won’t feel like tearing out their hair before viewing the season finale & still being able to understand it. When you have fans of a scifi/fantasy show that was a hit in season one already making list of episodes that you can/should skip in season two, then you as producers/writers really need to go back to drawing board & truly understand how far off track you really got to be at this point so quickly in your series.

 

After what happened with this show onscreen & offscreen this season, may season 3 & any other season after it hopefully never again be subjected to the same level of foolishness.

[ChelseaNH]

Interesting disquistion from a showrunner of a different show that explains all the reaction:

 

you know the best thing I ever heard, the thing I wish someone had told me when I was 20?

"Every criticism is the tragic result of an unmet need."

I think it's important when working in television to understand we are in the emotional need business.  The audience has needs, wide ranging and diverse, and ultimately impossible to satisfy universally and long-term.  So, in the end, all writers can do is write the show they need to write.

 

Even more muddling is that the writers themselves often don't agree what the show's about.  Leave aside the individual variations of the staff writers who've come and gone.

[cynic]

Season two bored me so much that I had to stop weekly live viewing after the mid-season finale. I said that if I decided to view any other season two episodes live then it would only be the last two episodes because that was when changes were expected to really take place since they weren’t shot yet. I also said that after the season was over, I would only watch any other second half episodes besides the last two after I read reviews about them & that’s exactly what I ended up doing.

Thankfully the writing improved a bit after the producers/writing staff could no longer ignore the “haters” because they didn’t get onboard with their genius writing unlike those they regarded as “true fans” that were telling them exactly what they wanted to hear even if it meant the quality of the show was spiraling down the toilet. Even after live watching the two part season finale (“Awakening” & “Tempus Fugit”) & reading reviews from fans/critics about other episodes, I’ve only been able to work up enough interest to watch “Kali Yuga” mainly because I read that there was beginnings of real talk between Abbie & Ichabod about the current state of their partnership (plus for the karaoke scenes & since the writers remembered both of the witnesses had family members on the show, so Jenny was also given significant screen time as well) & “What Lies Beneath” mostly because I like Sharif Atkins & it’s been a while since I watched him in anything.

The other episodes in the second half of the season that I still haven’t watched may end up staying unwatched since it really didn’t stop me from understanding what took place in the season finale or I may view them when I’m really bored & have nothing else to do with my time. If this show had a real “show bible” like other scifi/fantasy shows, myself & others wouldn’t have had such an easy time skipping a chunk of episodes without much difficulty in picking up again at any time & still understanding what was happening, so that in of itself should tell these writers how weak their mythology ended up becoming. There are people on social media who have watched every episode this season advising others that tuned out early in season two but are thinking about watching again after hearing about what happened in the season finale on which episodes they can skip so that they won’t feel like tearing out their hair before viewing the season finale & still being able to understand it. When you have fans of a scifi/fantasy show that was a hit in season one already making list of episodes that you can/should skip in season two, then you as producers/writers really need to go back to drawing board & truly understand how far off track you really got to be at this point so quickly in your series.

After what happened with this show onscreen & offscreen this season, may season 3 & any other season after it hopefully never again be subjected to the same level of foolishness.

Now, I'm curious which episodes people are saying to watch versus skip.

I honestly had a hard time paying enough attention to this season to feel very confident recommending one or another. I can't really remember which ones may have had a tidbit of important information or a particularly cute Ichabbie scene. Hmmmm.... except for Pittura Infanmante. Feel free to skip that it. Maybe watch the first and last few minutes.

[HalcyonDays]

Now, I'm curious which episodes people are saying to watch versus skip.

 

Unlike in season 1, where I kept the entire season on my DVR until the DVD's came out, this season I deleted most of the episodes in anger after live watching. However, I did tape the repeats, thinking maybe - maybe - I would give them another chance, but am having a hard time dragging myself to watch them.

 

That said, for me, the list for me would be this for me:

 

This is War - Definately watch

The Kindred - Watch until Crane finds Katrina, then FF through the mess until you have Abbie's reaction to Katrina wanting to stay behind

Root of All Evil - Watch

Go Where I Send Thee... - Watch

The Weeping Lady - Definately Watch

And the Abyss Gazes Back - Watch

Deliverance - Skip this absolute disgusting mess. Find the opening voting scene with Ichabbie on Youtube and watch that.

Heartless - Skip

Mama - Watch

Magnum Opus - Watch

The Akeda - Skip. though Frank "dies' in it, it is a mess and a total disgrace to Irving's character.

Paradise Lost - Skip. I didn't mind Orion, just found the episode boring

Pittura Infamante - Skip skip skippity skip. Find the scene of Abbie adjusting Crane's outfit on the internet

Kali Yuga - Watch. It's a good episode for me, and the karaoke is great.

Spellcaster - Skip. Dual role Katia, and though the villian did good, dual-role Katia. Read the synopsis on the internet, for background info needed for the final two episodes. Or ask us.

What Lies Beneath - Skip

Awakening - Definately watch

Tempus Fugit - Most Definitely Watch. I personally though this was the best episode of the SERIES. Yeah, I said it.

[Miss Dee]

I think, much like Ichabbie itself, "Tempus Fugit" and "Pilot" need each other to demonstrate how completely awesome they really are.

[DearEvette]

I went back and tried to re-watch S2 and simply couldn't make it through so many eps.  They enraged me in hindsight.

 

I agree with HalcyonDays' watch/skip list....except I would even skip The Kindred because that entire episode was nothing but them affecting the rescue that did not happen.  And it was the first of instance when Abbie caves to Ichabod against her better judgment all for the service of Katrina and in the end all the shit they did was for nothing.   So the grand result of that episode was a) the first seeds of Ichabod & Abbie at odds over Katrina b) Jenny gets thrown into the slammer because she was doing something to help them rescue Katrina (who again chose not to be rescued)  and c) The biggest dropped plot element of the entire season: The Kindred whom we never see again all season long (except his leg in the finale).

 

And I'd FF to end of Pittura Infamante to when Abbie saves the day because the minute she joins the A-plot it gets a badly needed jolt of energy.  It is too bad some of the best special effects of the season are wasted on an episode that is trying to make Katrina into Nancy Freaking Drew.

 

But yeah, under no circumstance even subject yourself to Deliverance.  To me that episode is like Aliens III, Terminator III and The Godfather III -- these things just don't exist in my world.   Never happened. 

 

And make sure to re-watch Tempus Fugit over an over.  It really is that good.

Edited March 31, 2015 by DearEvette

[jhlipton]

I would upgrade Mama to an "absolutely MUST watch!!!!!!"  Totally Abbie and Jenny front-and-center, and a decent (if not great) story.  But Abbie and Jenny, working together -- WOOT!

[Indi]

You're all too generous. I'd only watch This Is War, Mama and the last two episodes. The rest had from nothing to very little value. Okay, I don't want to be too stingy, I'd add Go Where I Send Thee to the list. The Weeping Lady looked very promising, but, just like almost everything this season, it was a huge waste of time and had zero consequences, except for Ichy flip-flopping endlessly like the moron he is.

[Watermelon]

 

 

And I'd FF to end of Pittura Infamante to when Abbie saves the day because the minute she joins the A-plot it gets a badly needed jolt of energy.  It is too bad some of the best special effects of the season are wasted on an episode that is trying to make Katrina into Nancy Freaking Drew.

 

I gotta say I rewatched this one when my dvr picked up the rerun and I adored it.

 

It wasn't without it's problems, but the killer was super creepy, Abigail came through like the boss she was and saved the day. But really, I liked this episode because whoever wrote it clearly thought Katrina was all the StruggleWitch that we call her.  There's a scene where Ichabod is trying to save someone and Katrina WALKS toward him.  It's hard to tell, but she's actually in the same room when all the drama goes down and she either didn't notice or didn't care.  She's so terrible but it was more like they stopped even pretending she wasn't.  

 

I could almost imagine someone wrote the first draft as Date Night Murder Mystery and someone edited it into Katrina Still Sucks, You Aren't Slick.

[DearEvette]

The Weeping Lady looked very promising, but, just like almost everything this season, it was a huge waste of time and had zero consequences, except for Ichy flip-flopping endlessly like the moron he is.

 

Oh I rather enjoyed Weeping Lady.  The actress who played Mary was very good.  Between her and Caroline, it proves that even the most minor walk on actresses have 100x more chemistry with Ichabod than Katrina ever had despite Goffman's best efforts and pouring her down our throats.  Also Mison's acting when he thinks Abbie is dead is worth the entire episode.  And finally I thought this episode finally makes explicit what a lot of people already knew that Katrina was truly shady. Not just implied, but for real an awful person for what she did to Mary.  Plus Ichabod's half hurt/half disgust at Katrina once Mary revealed what she had done was perfect.

 

It was a really strong episode.  It felt like it was moving the story along a very satisfying path.  Of course the one-two punch of Deliverance and Heartless killed the promising momentum of what The Weeping Lady started.  I can't help but wonder how much better the season would have been if they had allowed the seeds planted in The Weeping Lady to grow and let Katrina's awful nature continue right from there as a natural trajectory instead of trying to mold her into a romantic heroine that never, ever fit right. 

 

As much as I came to really dislike the character and am glad she was killed, from the perspective of a person who appreciates a story told well above all else, I hated how her change was affected.  Given all the time they had, they really could have made the transition so much more meaningful and interesting.  And it would have served the story so much better if they had committed to what they seemed to be suggesting in The Weeping Lady rather than being forced to do it much later in Spellcaster/Awakening.

[HalcyonDays]

^^ DearEvette. This post is awesome and I completely agree. They had the seeds there with Katrina, they could have done so much with it, and it would have been awesome. But because Goffman put his doll on a pedestal, and that doll could do no wrong, well, then we got Pittura Infamante, some other crap but at least she was killed off.

 

The person who played Mary is Heather Lind - she plays Anna Strong in TURN (good show), and is very good in it, and though the time period is the same, her character is very different there. Same with the actress who played Carolyn (Laura Spencer), who also plays Raj's girlfriend on Big Bang Theory. Almost every guest character has been really good - they cast well. It's just Goffman's vision and Katia Winter couldn't quite bring her character to life when she was "good". When she was a baddie though - she did quite nice.

 

As for the writers giving up on Katrina, they did is way earlier in the season. I mean, how did they THINK it would look, to have "powerful" witch fainting and being squicked out by a rat, and Abbie's like "screw this" and takes care of business AND does magic. Just...what were they thinking the audience would see it as?

 

Was this some sort of writers room plot to find a way to get rid of a boring character and oust Goffman without him knowing??

[DearEvette]

@HalcyonDays  Y'know.... I do have to wonder sometimes.  It was so contradictory what we were seeing.  I can't help but think there was a small subset of writers who were being subversive on purpose.  If they were quietly working against the Prime Directive and were deliberately planting these nuggets that really undermined her character.  It is almost like a tiny rebellion or a small mutiny. And since he was so narrowly focused with his own tunnel vision he simply couldn't see it.

 

I mean the line in Kali Yuga where Abbie says with some contempt 'He's trying to work things out with his Witch wife."  The delivery was really rather acid.  But the line is there.

 

Or kinda like all of Abbie's eye-rolls  (which honestly I think those were Nicole's eye rolls, her own version of a tiny rebellion).

Edited March 31, 2015 by DearEvette

[Watermelon]

As for the writers giving up on Katrina, they did is way earlier in the season. I mean, how did they THINK it would look, to have "powerful" witch fainting and being squicked out by a rat, and Abbie's like "screw this" and takes care of business AND does magic. Just...what were they thinking the audience would see it as?

I REMEMBER THAT!

 

Katrina said she saw rats and Abbie said, no I see something else. So then they decide it must be an illusion and nothing's actually in the pot. They both agree to this and yet Katrina's punk ass still wouldn't put her hand in the jar. Lord she was terrible.  She should have been purposefully awful the whole of the second season because she was accidentally awful that whole time.

[DJG1122]

 

Was this some sort of writers room plot to find a way to get rid of a boring character and oust Goffman without him knowing??

Think you're on to something here. This would explain a lot.....

[jhlipton]

I can't help but wonder how much better the season would have been if they had allowed the seeds planted in The Weeping Lady to grow and let Katrina's awful nature continue right from there as a natural trajectory instead of trying to mold her into a romantic heroine that never, ever fit right.

 

Lord, yes.  Have it be explicit that Katrina killed Mary, and that the darkness was in her, only needing only a push here and there to come out, and blooming once she reached modern times.

[DJG1122]

HalcyonDays and DearEvette, I think you are both onto something here. Both Tom Mison and John Noble, (talented actors both on the stage and in front of a camera), were unhappy enough that BlackHoney's source knew about it. (One rhymes with Dyson and the other is not Nicole Beharie). If her source knew about it, then the entire cast and crew knew, including KW and Goofman, who apparently didn't care. (Has anyone else noticed that in all the interviews TM has given, he has said he enjoyed working with NB, LG, OJ and John Noble, but not once has he ever said he enjoyed working with KW? He said KW was funny, but never that he enjoyed working with her. Maybe (some of) the writers did write Katrina the way they did because they knew how the audience would see her and she & Goofy both were totally oblivious. All the interviews where KW said she talked to the writers about her character, giving the impression she was tight with the writers and in actuality, the writers were writing her as a StruggleWitch, making her look like a doofus. Maybe there was a quiet underground revolt going on.

When John Noble said 'they didn't have a clue what they were doing', that was a total slap in Goofy's face. He's the only one who could say something like that and get away with it. Thank you, King John.

 

[archiesmom]

I REMEMBER THAT!

 

Katrina said she saw rats and Abbie said, no I see something else. So then they decide it must be an illusion and nothing's actually in the pot. They both agree to this and yet Katrina's punk ass still wouldn't put her hand in the jar. Lord she was terrible.  She should have been purposefully awful the whole of the second season because she was accidentally awful that whole time.

 I think this whole scene would've actually come off as ironically funny if they had  shown us Katrina being a powerful witch opposed to telling us over and over again. Instead, no one actually believed she was powerful. So, not being able to reach into a jar of fake rats just added onto the pile of things Katrina failed at. I honestly think they were going for funny.

 

 

 

I gotta say I rewatched this one when my dvr picked up the rerun and I adored it.

 

It wasn't without it's problems, but the killer was super creepy, Abigail came through like the boss she was and saved the day. But really, I liked this episode because whoever wrote it clearly thought Katrina was all the StruggleWitch that we call her.  There's a scene where Ichabod is trying to save someone and Katrina WALKS toward him.  It's hard to tell, but she's actually in the same room when all the drama goes down and she either didn't notice or didn't care.  She's so terrible but it was more like they stopped even pretending she wasn't.  

 

I could almost imagine someone wrote the first draft as Date Night Murder Mystery and someone edited it into Katrina Still Sucks, You Aren't Slick.

Yes! Ichabod was trying to pull the guy out of the painting and she stood there. She didn't even blink, just stood there. This can't just be an acting choice, right? It had to have been the directors choice but why would a director tell someone to just stand there in a scene like that? Also, when they are observing the couple getting handsy and Ichabod makes the joke about getting a room, she again just stares. She had no reaction at all. 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't think I've ever seen another show actively contradict what's coming across on screen by telling the audience something different. Did they not trust the audience? Were they going for some big reveal at the end of the season and this was the only way to confuse people?  It still bothers me.

[HalcyonDays]

I love my conspiracy theories. Speculating on the behind the scenes mess with SH is like my reality show crack, I swear. So much shady and suspect things going on, I tell you.

 

(Has anyone else noticed that in all the interviews TM has given, he has said he enjoyed working with NB, LG, OJ and John Noble, but not once has he ever said he enjoyed working with KW? He said KW was funny, but never that he enjoyed working with her.

 

Oh, I very much noticed this too. Noticed this on the SH Season 1 DVD, during the finale episode commentary by Mison/Beharie, Wiseman and Kurtzman. I mentioned it before, but they all raved about Noble, Greenwood, Orlando Jones, but nothing - nothing - on Katia Winter. I felt bad for her then, but not anymore. But it was really glaring.

 

Now think of Noble's recent comments: "He (Noble) adds that he and co-star Tom Mison "were hoping to have more scenes together, because that's when it was really interesting." So he's basically saying it wasn't interesting during the times he spent the majority of the season alongside Winter. So it could be read as a bit of a slam towards her. However, he did have scenes with Orlando too, so there you are.

 

At the Birmingham MCM Comic Con, in the interview, Mison mentioned only he loved coming to work because he gets to work alongside Beharie, Greenwood and Noble. He barely had any scenes with Orlando, but guess who he did have many scenes with and didn't mention. That's right, Winter. And Noble and Mison - from what I've seen on video - are always very respectful and praise the people they work with, so this is an anomaly.

 

But still.

 

I almost want to go back and read through the threads, to remind myself of the clusterfuck of the season, because all of a sudden, knowing what we know now, things are suddenly going to make sense (like I said, it could be a reality show.)

 

She didn't even blink, just stood there. This can't just be an acting choice, right? It had to have been the directors choice but why would a director tell someone to just stand there in a scene like that?

 

But isn't it her job to take the character on screen and "get inside" her and flesh her out as she feels the person would reaction to the circumstances around her?

Case in point: Crane's finger twitch thing Mison does - his own addition. The sliding of the phone across the table. His improvision. The rigid body, the pointy finger, reactions to the modern world - all his interpretations. The director isn't telling him every move he needs to make. That's a mark of a amazing actor - being able to understand the character and bring them to life on screen.

 

So Winter looking off and not reacting is not the director, unless there was a reason for it that totally did not come properly on across on screen. But again, she had no say on the rat scene - that scene was written that way, as was the constant fainting, weak powers, not saying goodbye to Ichabod and going back to Abraham. I mean, that last one is so glaring I cannot even. You love this man, yet don't seem too pressed to leave his side and don't even write him a note?? I know this sounds stereotypical, but a few scenes of her all depressed or crying and missing and pining for Crane would have been helpful, wouldn't it? But we got....nothing.

 

God, I want a tell all book. Just post it as an E-book please. I so would pay.

[archiesmom]

But isn't it her job to take the character on screen and "get inside" her and flesh her out as she feels the person would reaction to the circumstances around her?

Case in point: Crane's finger twitch thing Mison does - his own addition. The sliding of the phone across the table. His improvision. The rigid body, the pointy finger, reactions to the modern world - all his interpretations. The director isn't telling him every move he needs to make. That's a mark of a amazing actor - being able to understand the character and bring them to life on screen.

 

I was asking more along the lines of, please tell me this wasn't an acting choice. So I agree with what you're saying here. 

 

You love this man, yet don't seem too pressed to leave his side and don't even write him a note?? I know this sounds stereotypical, but a few scenes of her all depressed or crying and missing and pining for Crane would have been helpful, wouldn't it? But we got....nothing.

 

This is what I mean by contradictory story telling. This is what they show us. The words don't match the actions though. How were we supposed to root for True Love if they don't even seem like they want to be near each other. So what were we supposed to believe? The marriage was doomed or the marriage will endure all? I'm still confused.

[HalcyonDays]

I was asking more along the lines of, please tell me this wasn't an acting choice. So I agree with what you're saying here. 

 

This is what I mean by contradictory story telling. This is what they show us. The words don't match the actions though. How were we supposed to root for True Love if they don't even seem like they want to be near each other. So what were we supposed to believe? The marriage was doomed or the marriage will endure all? I'm still confused.

 

Oh, I knew what you meant, archiesmom. I just ended up rambling a bit. :')

 

As for what we were supposed to believe. Depends on who you ask. Ask Goffman and you'll get one answer. Ask everyone else, and you'll get a completely different one!

 

However, maybe this tweet and response from the Official Twitter of Sleepy Hollow can provide this answer:

 

Sleepy Hollow @SleepyHollowFOX  ·  Mar 25

That Witch Was Not Loyal #MyExIn5Words #SleepyHollow

 

There was a picture Katrina, and Crane, his back to the camera with the floating knife, included with the above tweet, but I'm not linking it here.

 

CB ‏@CBsGrumpyElf Mar 26

@SleepyHollowFOX She manipulated from Day One. #MyExIn5Words #SleepyHollow

 

Sleepy HollowVerified account ‏@SleepyHollowFOX

@cbsgrumpyelf Do we sense that you are talking about Katrina? #sleepyhollow

 

Hahahaha!! This shade is the best!

[DearEvette]

Ok conspiracy theories.... Orlando Jones does not follow KW on twitter.  They all follow each other.  But he doesn't follow her.  Did she block him?  Did he unfollow her?

 

I swear, i don't even need an ebook of the BTS stuff... just somebody post rambling thoughts online somewhere....tweet it out and then do a storify.... something....

 

 

eta - contradictory storytelling:  Katrina knowing she was pregnant before Ichabod died per the Pittura Infamante episode.  Shady Katrina strikes again.  But Metzner responded when someone asked 'Oh it was a mistake."  How the heck do you forget a major..and I mean...MAJOR plot point like that?  Ichabod being ignorant of his impending fatherhood was the foundation of the entire back half of season one!

Edited April 1, 2015 by DearEvette

[Indi]

All the interviews where KW said she talked to the writers about her character, giving the impression she was tight with the writers and in actuality, the writers were writing her as a StruggleWitch, making her look like a doofus. Maybe there was a quiet underground revolt going on.

 

If this had been a different show, that only wrote this one character badly, I would agree, but I don't think Katrina was the only character suffering from bad-writingitis. Actually, they were perfect Goffman minions with all their tweets praising the actress and swooning at the perfection that was Katrina and Ichatrina. I think they were just as deluded as Goffman. It's true that KW said or gave the impression she was tight with the writers, but so did they. They never missed an opportunity to post pictures with her showing how tight they were. The love and the lack of talent was mutual.

 

Remember that for them the criticism came from "haters". If they made her look like a doofus and damseled her to ridiculous levels, it could very well be because that's what attractive women should be in their opinion. To prove this point, Jenny never was more attractive to them, than when her purpose became to wear sexy clothes, make moony eyes at and support the man, who stole her role in the team.

 

Yes! Ichabod was trying to pull the guy out of the painting and she stood there. She didn't even blink, just stood there. This can't just be an acting choice, right? It had to have been the directors choice but why would a director tell someone to just stand there in a scene like that? Also, when they are observing the couple getting handsy and Ichabod makes the joke about getting a room, she again just stares. She had no reaction at all.

Uuuuhhh, has she ever made a different acting choice than that one? ;)

[HalcyonDays]

^^ This post from Indi. Yup, that's exactly how I saw it too. I would bank that maybe one or two writers may have felt differently, but what could they do? They are not going to go against the boss, so they "fell in line". But as John Noble said "They had no clue what they were doing." Still blown away by this comment. LOL!

 

 

Ok conspiracy theories.... Orlando Jones does not follow KW on twitter.  They all follow each other.  But he doesn't follow her.  Did she block him?  Did he unfollow her?

 

I swear, i don't even need an ebook of the BTS stuff... just somebody post rambling thoughts online somewhere....tweet it out and then do a storify.... something....

 

Oh, I didn't know that... I don't use twitter, but if you have an account, can you see who another person is following? Like you can see who Orlando follows, or could he hide certain accounts he follows from the public. Not sure how it goes. It sounds like you mean you can look at who Orlando follows, and everyone else is listed there (the other main three). But it makes sense, considering the beautiful shade that he throws around about Katrina. It is truly gold.

 

Very interesting. *puts on tin foil hat* One of her stans wrote that she (Winter) deleted all of her instagram pics that related to SH. The only thing I could think of was that she was pissed to be killed off, and knows she's not coming back. Gave me a sigh of relief.

 

Also, Orlando, being his classy self, sent a congrats tweet to Goffman about his CBS deal, and he retweeted it. However, no congrats from Goffman to Orlando about SH renewal. Yeah, he may have been fired, but there is still a level of professionalism that takes place in this environment that the public sees. It would have been classy for him to do that, but that's just me.

 

eta - contradictory storytelling:  Katrina knowing she was pregnant before Ichabod died per the Pittura Infamante episode.  Shady Katrina strikes again.  But Metzner responded when someone asked 'Oh it was a mistake."  How the heck do you forget a major..and I mean...MAJOR plot point like that?  Ichabod being ignorant of his impending fatherhood was the foundation of the entire back half of season one!

 

DearEvette, you totally reminded me of something I was going to post yesterday, then my mind drew a blank. Doug Aarniowski mentioned on his twitter that there are two people whose job is it to ensure continuity. These people need to be fired. Hire any SH fan out there - I'll take the job - because apparently we are the only ones who know what went on, on the show.

[DeLurker]

@HalcyonDays  Y'know.... I do have to wonder sometimes.  It was so contradictory what we were seeing.  I can't help but think there was a small subset of writers who were being subversive on purpose.  If they were quietly working against the Prime Directive and were deliberately planting these nuggets that really undermined her character.  It is almost like a tiny rebellion or a small mutiny. And since he was so narrowly focused with his own tunnel vision he simply couldn't see it.

<snip>

Or kinda like all of Abbie's eye-rolls  (which honestly I think those were Nicole's eye rolls, her own version of a tiny rebellion).

I don't think it was intentional for the reasons Indi said.  For whatever reason, they all seemed to be in the Katrina Kult and it was at the expense of good storylines, the other cast members and ultimately, almost the show.  The writers and storylines benefitted from the fans affection for S1 and the core four.

 

But totally agree on the Abbie eye roll!

 

I almost want to go back and read through the threads, to remind myself of the clusterfuck of the season, because all of a sudden, knowing what we know now, things are suddenly going to make sense (like I said, it could be a reality show.)

<snip>

God, I want a tell all book. Just post it as an E-book please. I so would pay.

Please don't inflict the pain upon yourself with re-reading the ep threads.

 

And somebody start a Kickstarter campaign to get that behind-the-scenes book from Orlando!

[DearEvette]

Uuuuhhh, has she ever made a different acting choice than that one? ;)

 

No.  She doesn't.   I commented on this in several of the episode threads.  She really has no expression.  She stands like she is waiting for her next line.  It is so odd.  And distracting.

Oh, I didn't know that... I don't use twitter, but if you have an account, can you see who another person is following? Like you can see who Orlando follows, or could he hide certain accounts he follows from the public. Not sure how it goes. It sounds like you mean you can look at who Orlando follows, and everyone else is listed there (the other main three). But it makes sense, considering the beautiful shade that he throws around about Katrina. It is truly gold.

 

If you look at a person's profile, you can see everyone who is following them.  In the case of celebrities who have anywhere from 10,000 too 1 million or more followers that is difficult to scroll through.  But if you follow someone and then go into someone else's profile, twitter lets you know if you have any people in common followers/following.  I follow all the SH people.  When I go into any of their profiles all the rest of the SH folks show up as our people in common.  So If I go into Tom Mison's profile it will say something like 'Nicole Beharie, Lyndie Greenwood and 7 other people you know are also following Tom Mison'.   And usually the 7 other people are the SH folks.  When I go in KW's profile, Orlando isn't on the list of people we have in common, so he isn't following her.  When I go into his list, she shows up so she is following him.

 

I don't think it was intentional for the reasons Indi said.  For whatever reason, they all seemed to be in the Katrina Kult and it was at the expense of good storylines, the other cast members and ultimately, almost the show.  The writers and storylines benefitted from the fans affection for S1 and the core four.

 

From what I recall from this season the biggest jerk was Metzner and the two frat dude-bros who wrote Deliverance.  Metzner was the one who tweeted about haters, I think.  And isn't he also the one who thought Lyndie looked hot hence the leather skirt episode? However there have been a handful of other writers who really reached out and tried to connect with the AbbieMillsDeserveBetter hashtag, Melissa Blake especially.  And Heather Regnier and Damian Kindler are the ones that seem to be credited with writing the more Abbie centric episodes.  Not surprisingly these are three who are holdovers from s1.

[HalcyonDays]

Thanks for the explanation, DearEvette. Much appreciated. Good to know. So they all follow each other...aww....Surprised Orlando isn't following her, but she is. Especially since I think he may follow some of the more vocal (and awesome) fans of SH.

 

That's it - Katrina Kult is how we need to refer to "those people" from how on!

 

Yeah, Metzner's the one who started the whole "true fans" thing and talking about Lyndie in a sexist way. Right now he's apparently trying to make amends (or someone told him to) because all of a sudden, he's much more gracious. Getting a comeuppance and keeping your job may do that to a person.

 

M. Raven Metzner @mraven257  ·  Mar 18

That's what I'm talking about #sleepyhollow Best fandom ever! #RenewSleepyHollow

[phoenics]

Lord, yes.  Have it be explicit that Katrina killed Mary, and that the darkness was in her, only needing only a push here and there to come out, and blooming once she reached modern times.

Katrina's magic is plant based - and we're supposed to believe Mary just coincidentally "tripped on a root" and fell to her death?!?! For Lord's sake she makes the trees grow tall in the Sleepy Hollow credits!

I will always believe Katrina killed her.

Edited April 2, 2015 by phoenics

[phoenics]

Thanks for the explanation, DearEvette. Much appreciated. Good to know. So they all follow each other...aww....Surprised Orlando isn't following her, but she is. Especially since I think he may follow some of the more vocal (and awesome) fans of SH.

 

That's it - Katrina Kult is how we need to refer to "those people" from how on!

 

Yeah, Metzner's the one who started the whole "true fans" thing and talking about Lyndie in a sexist way. Right now he's apparently trying to make amends (or someone told him to) because all of a sudden, he's much more gracious. Getting a comeuppance and keeping your job may do that to a person.

Humpfh... I still don't trust Metzner. Haven't forgiven him for his retweet of the "real fans" tweet and the "haters" retweet - not to mention him just being stupid and taking criticism of his work way too personally - rather than listening. He was just as tone deaf as Goffman and he's the one who shoved Jenny into a sexist corner.

Nevermind wimpifying Headless - he turned BAMF Jenny into a sexpot who had nothing to do. He's a sexist jerk.

Edited April 2, 2015 by phoenics

[archiesmom]

 

Uuuuhhh, has she ever made a different acting choice than that one? ;)

Ha!  I was trying to be nice. Though, she did shed a singular tear, that one time.....

 

 

 

 

 

 

From what I recall from this season the biggest jerk was Metzner and the two frat dude-bros who wrote Deliverance.  Metzner was the one who tweeted about haters, I think.  And isn't he also the one who thought Lyndie looked hot hence the leather skirt episode? However there have been a handful of other writers who really reached out and tried to connect with the AbbieMillsDeserveBetter hashtag, Melissa Blake especially.  And Heather Regnier and Damian Kindler are the ones that seem to be credited with writing the more Abbie centric episodes.  Not surprisingly these are three who are holdovers from s1.

Ugh, Metzner is so gross. He did comment on how good she looked dressed up and that was why he wanted her out of her normal vest and pants. Were the "hater" tweets after the Deliverance episode?  

 

Katrina's magic is plant based - and we're supposed to believe Mary just coincidentally "tripped on a root" and fell to her death?!?! For Lord's sake she makes the trees grow tall in the Sleepy Hollow credits!

I will always believe Katrina killed her.

 Yes! I never believed otherwise.