The Sleepy Hollow Therapy Thread - What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow?

[topanga]

What exactly does the Showrunner do? Because this season's problems seem to lie with the writing. Here are some of the major problems: 

 

• Katrina is supposed to be a powerful witch, but she continues to be written as a powerless damsel in distress who used to have the balls (so to speak) to bind Headless and throw him into the sea as well as kill a woman--or let her die--and cover up the death so she could keep Ichabod. But now she can't kill Moloch because he looks like a child, and she supposed to be a spy, but she's a terrible one. She gave Henry full access to Ichabod and Abbie's conversation in the archives. And she's learned little new information from Henry or Abraham about their "great plans." And she's afraid of rats.

--I don't think it's just Katia Winter's acting. The character is written as a weak and ineffective woman, and the fact that she's a huge part of almost every episode this season makes her scenes unsatisfying.

 

• Ichabod and Abbie's role as Witnesses has been inconsistent at best. It's often sidelined in favor of the Crane family drama. Even Ichabod seems to forget their mission: to stop the Apocalypse. The first half of season 1 was Ichabod trying to convince Abbie that it was their destiny.

 

• Henry's storyline drags. Every week, he talks about creating "Hell on Earth." Didn't he do that when he made the Demon Baby? So why does he need to blow a horn to summon more demons? Having Moloch and two Horsemen on earth isn't enough? And who died and put Henry in charge?

 

--I just picked up the Season 1 DVDs. There is definitely a difference, not just in the writing, but also in the performances. Nicole Beharie and Tom Mison are still amazing, but they don't seem as passionate or as happy when saying their lines. And the dialogue doesn't flow as seamlessly as it did last season. Again, I think this a consequence of the writing, not the acting. 

[cynic]

Goffman was involved with White Collar. I think he became Executive Producer around season 3. I think that's about the time that the writers started messing with the dynamic between the two leads. They drove a wedge between them with artificial drama and distrust, ruining the actors' chemistry and a great relationship the fans were invested in. That was also the season they foisted Hilarie Burton on us as a series regular. From what I remember from TWoP, most viewers disliked her character and thought she was a mediocre actress. TPTB seemed to love her though. I'm not sure if things got better after that, since I couldn't take it and stopped watching.

Hmmmm....

[Leia1979]

What I really don't get is that the criticism of this show is pretty consistent from multiple sources I've seen. You'd think the showrunners might want to fix it.

 

My thoughts in order of priority:

1. Katrina - She got stuck being the exposition fairy in season one. We were never shown any great love between her and Ichabod. Despite not being that great back in season one, her screentime this season has grown exponentially. The character is ineffective as a witch or a spy, and she's the third wheel to the core of the show.

 

2. Henry - I know some didn't care for the whole Jeremy reveal at all, but I wouldn't mind if he weren't a petulant child with a mommy obsession stuck in an old man's body. He's more annoying than evil. We had much more frightening villains last season.

 

3. Team Ichabbie drifting apart - I don't mean the ship in this case, but it's not the same close and equal team it was last season. We've had too many episodes where Abbie's time was reduced and too many instances of Crane being obnoxious instead of the charming priss he was last season. The dialogue has been very clunky between them at times when it used to be so snappy.

 

4. Moving to 18 episodes - I hate to say it. I thought more would be better, but I think the clear direction of season one has become murky. I think 18 episodes could have worked better by keeping the overall season arc tighter and interspersing more of the creepy one-off baddies.

 

5. The sidelining of Irving (and to a lesser extent, Jenny) - Irving was the Skinner to Ichabod and Abbie's Mulder and Scully. I miss that dynamic. I also don't care for their replacements, Reyes and Hawley.

 

Now, to be fair, there are episodes this season that I really enjoyed. Go Where I Send Thee and The Weeping Lady had that creepy element that makes this show fun to me. 

[cheyz]

I'm not as down on the show as many here, I do still like it. I don't understand Irving being sidelined, unless the quest for his soul is going to be a big part later. Jenny, I figured part was giving her a little time off since she just came off working double and part to fit her in more since she'd just been made a regular. It also did give more time to Katrina (who was shorted last season) and to introduce us more to Jenry and Hawley. I'm still hoping it pulls together more in the upcoming episodes.

 

Crane, as a man of his time, should care about a son he just found out about. I don't think Katrina needs to turn evil, but I do want her to show more power and be more helpful to the Witnesses. As far as chemistry, why would anyone want it to be stronger? Ichabbie is obviously the main relationship, but that doesn't mean Crane can't have his already established wife more in the background.

 

I still think the other two horsemen will be tied to Abbie. Maybe that's where Irving comes in? Or maybe Reyes? I think the essential humanity of the Witnesses is what will triumph over the evil of The Horsemen and Moloch in the end. They had to start with Headless obviously, but maybe they should have kept Henry in the background more to be #3 and used an Abbie-related horseman for the second one.

 

In the end, I don't think Jenry will be redeemed and live out his life on earth. I think Jeremy will overcome Henry to help vanquish Moloch, which will regain Jeremy's soul as he goes off into the afterlife. He'll be evil until then, with maybe some more hints.

 

A lot of what we are seeing may be like what happens in many book trilogies. Nobody expected the first season to be the hit it was, and now they have to step back and fill in more of what is needed to make it last seven or however many seasons. That's the boring part, but once it is out of the way things will pick up again.

[TV Juriste]

 

I also agree with RiddleyWalker (on everything but specifically this since I didn't think of it myself), as they became aware that representation of races in the show is important to a large of the viewers, they should've made sure to have someone who can be a consultant because I don't think that creatively they should have to worry about that. Someone who says "Um guys, there are some undertones here that can be offensive". I honestly didn't think it was a big deal that a big part of the cast wasn't white because to me that's normal. Regardless, it's something that's important on TV here right now and if it's in their plus column, they should keep it up.

 

I agree with you and RiddleyWalker about everything, but I do want to disagree about one thing. There's no need for a POC to be hired on the show as a consultant. There are plenty of POC who are TV writers! In fact, there were two or three POC on the show in season 1, but they're no longer working on the show . . .

Edited November 26, 2014 by TV Juriste

[phoenics]

I agree with you and RiddleyWalker about everything, but I do want to disagree about one thing there's no need for a POC to be hired on the show as a consultant. There are plenty of POC who are TV writers! In fact, there were two or three POC on the show in season 1, but they're no longer working on the show . . .

Wow. I would have never noticed the difference the absence of those writers left. /sarcasm

Major sad coming on.

[fantique]

I agree with you and RiddleyWalker about everything, but I do want to disagree about one thing there's no need for a POC to be hired on the show as a consultant. There are plenty of POC who are TV writers! In fact, there were two or three POC on the show in season 1, but they're no longer working on the show . . .

 

Well, fair or not, it's obvious that Goffman got a new writers' team once he became showrunner, and for whatever the reason, these are the people who clicked with him on a creative level. If they are aware that there is dissatisfaction and they don't have a person who can have that understanding, they should hire a person that deals with that.

I am not sure I am the best person to talk about this, I don't see 95% of the stuff people complain about (As obnoxious as that sounds, I really don't register race or gender when thinking of people). The thing is it's an egg and chick issue, you don't know which comes first, the writing and then you add the characters' race or is the characters' race a base on which the writing is built (outside of race specific historical events of course)? 

[BestestAuntEver]

Wow. I would have never noticed the difference the absence of those writers left. /sarcasm

Major sad coming on.

Sadly, my first thoughts.

My second thought. The new writers received a memorandum that told them:

1. Ich, the witness, was the leading male

2. Struggle witch, is the leading female, she is a beautiful powerful witch, love of his life and mother of his child.

3. Henry, is the Crane's child and the shows big bad. He will bring the apocalypse.

4. Abbie, is Crane's aid/helper/side kick

The new writers were then told that the witness and witch will fight together to reunite their family, redeem Henry and defeat evil with an occasional assist by their little helper, Abbie.

I have a big sadz

[SimoneS]

What exactly does the Showrunner do? Because this season's problems seem to lie with the writing. 

 

While it varies slightly from show to show and network to network, the showrunner's vision determines the creative direction of the show (the writing, plot developments, and casting). The showrunner also makes the final decisions on production, editing, hiring/firing, and budget allocation. Most showrunners are writers who have extensive experience in production. Some showrunners like Scott Gimple on The Walking Dead and Kurt Sutter on The Sons of Anarchy lead the writing team and write the scripts for pivotal episodes which is why these episodes tend to be among the shows' best. 

Edited November 26, 2014 by SimoneS

[MissAlmond]

Venting on this board made it easier for me to quit SH, yet there are posters here whose opinions I respect and part of me keeps hoping they’ll finally post the word that SH of old has returned.  Sadly, I think that’s a pipe dream on part but hope springs eternal in the human breast.

I still believe that making Headless, Crane’s old friend and Katrina’s ex-whatever, was a mistake.  But it is a mistake that’s grounded in Irving’s tale, so I could live with it.  What I didn’t expect was for the show to turn badass Headless into a version of a disillusioned Buzz Lightyear sipping tea.  To me, the Jeremy/Henry story was a huge mistake.  Turning the Sin Eater into the Crane’s son is a great cliffhanger but then what?  Since I never watched Fridge, I had no allegiance to John Noble but I will admit the man is a very good actor.  But Henry’s story is a show sucking device for me, and I so wish  instead, Noble had been cast as the Evil Mayor of Sleepy Hollow.  I also would have preferred that none of the Horseman have any connection with Crane or Abbie, although as noted above, I give leeway to Brom due to the short story. I didn’t mind Katrina’s not quite the whole story advice of Season 1,  I never needed her as an all powerful witch.  Unlike others, I  preferred Jenny as recurring and frankly, had no need for Frank’s family.  I always saw Frank as another nod to the original story who writes “The Legend of Sleepy Hollow“.

 

I guess my disappointment is that this show had so much going for it in Season 1 (or at least up to “The Midnight Ride”).  Badass Headless.  WASHINGTON’S BIBLE!!!  The Sandman (who happens to be my favorite “monster” of them all).  The twist on American history.  Craziness everywhere, as was fitting a town with a Headless Horseman running about. I expected to see the town’s reaction in Season 2.  Who was good?  Who was evil?  And what about the ordinary citizens of SH seeing all the craziness and now worried about their property values?

 

Most importantly of all, this show was unexpectedly blessed by the tv gods with an amazing chemistry between their two leads.  A viewer didn’t have to be all about shipping to see this.  Chemistry is chemistry and when it comes to fictional characters it’s what Frank Loesser wrote in Guys and Dolls:
                              “Mine will come as a surprise to me
                                Mine I lead to chance and chemistry”
                               “Chemistry?”
                               “Yeah, chemistry”

 

 

The strong chemistry between Crane and Abbie was indeed a "surprise" to the writers.  Most showrunners would have sacrificed a baby goat in appreciation of this gift, as it is rare indeed.  Instead, not only did Goffman toss this in the trash can with a shrug and an “eh” but he obviously listened to and agreed with people who reminded him over and over how they never, ever, never, ever, never, never, never (did I mention never) wanted to see even a remote chance Crane and Abbie getting tingtogether.  That what we were seeing was all sibling related.  Or best friends related.  Or,  - hey, what about Katrina?  But Mark Goffman is no Frank Loesser.

[blixie]

 

The problems with Sleepy Hollow's second season lie on the shoulders of the showrunner.

 

Not sure how more clear I could have been but that was entirely my point, that it WAS the showrunners who were fucked up.  I wasn't arguing Reilly was fired for the diversity stuff, nor was I saying Fox overall was backing off it, I was trying to point out how OFF message, and completely tone deaf the people running this show are, if they felt the need to DENY they were being intentionally diverse about representation, and instead argued essentially such a thing is the REAL racism, and they are just colorblind y'all. Whatever. 

 

 

I do want to disagree about one thing there's no need for a POC to be hired on the show as a consultant. There are plenty of POC who are TV writers! In fact, there were two or three POC on the show in season 1, but they're no longer working on the show . . .

 

Right, I was so happy to see that they had diversity in the writers room as well as in front of the camera, I believe they had one WoC too.  Does anyone have a list of the writers last year v. this year, I'm just interested in who stayed v. who left.

[MissAlmond]

BTW - I so wish that during public interview or discussion of the show with Goffman and the writers, the Sandman would suddenly appear and force them to reveal why  they really changed the dynamic of the show. 

[fantique]

I was trying to point out how OFF message, and completely tone deaf the people running this show are, if they felt the need to DENY they were being intentionally diverse about representation, and instead argued essentially such a thing is the REAL racism, and they are just colorblind y'all. Whatever. 

I have to say though, I just don't think that them saying the multiracial casting was unintentional was about saying that doing it intentionally was bad. The way I understood it in interviews, they were just going with the most talented options they had. That's more flattering to these actors in my opinion because it's saying this wasn't about making some PC move, it was about getting the best person for the job. That's the strongest argument for having POC more in interesting and important roles.

 

I liked their answer at Comic-Con which was (paraphrasing here) "Why not? It just made sense creatively and it should be that way for every casting choice in the business." If the most talented people they could find were black, then why the hell would they not cast them? To me that's a good "message" if there needs to be one, that means non-white actors can go for parts without having to play a stereotype or be in a historical movie. I saw these answers as them not being pompous arseholes who are "about making hollywood a better place", especially if it wasn't premeditated because that would annoy me more for them to act like that was some grand plan. 

The fact that it stood out is more a commentary on the entertainment industry's ways than it is on theirs.

Edited November 28, 2014 by fantique

[TwistedandBored]

Sidelining fan favorite characters, weak villains and Crane Family Drama is my three biggest beefs with this show.

 

 

 

By the way where are the other members in the White Witches Coven Katrina and the priest that died in season 1 used to belong? Where are the Dark WItches Coven they were trying to fight? I for sure they would be part of this Rise of Moloch war. I also thought there would be a secret war going on between the different groups. Back in season 1 that is who I thought Captain Irving belonged to. It would have been soo fun to see the two witnesses reporting to a small coven of witches/others or have a place where they can go and get more detailed info or just backup. They are soo isolated now with a really terrible witch as their only source along with text books and google. 

[Yolapukka]

To me the worst decision in terms of cast was upping Katrina's screen time and precedence to position her as a central rather than peripheral character. However the single biggest mistake in terms of writing was to give the Cranes a son and not just any son but the horrible Henry/Jeremy.  it was not a dramatically rich decision, It was a disastrously limiting contrivance. It irritates the fuckity-fucking crap out of me and ruined one of the central conflicts of the show by making a significant villain into a source of cringe-inducing maudlin idiocy. 

Edited November 26, 2014 by yuggapukka

[vanarnd1]

I think a lot of the show's issues come from the focus on the past era revolutionary war period instead of the present.

 

• Ichabod's role/destiny has been shown to be seen as more important than Abbie's(and has caused Ichabod to be poorly written IMO)
• Katrina has ended up being a lynchpin for a lot of the plot(which speaks for itself as being a problem)
•  Henry has become the main villain to bring up the CFD as a constant theme, by extension this has also affected the Headless Horseman as a credible villain
• Less screen time for present day characters(Jenny/Irving) and also less time to see how present day Sleepy Hollow would react to what is going on
• Changing a fun, fast paced, action adventure show that maximized the chemistry of the two leads into a slow paced, inconsistent, overly dramatic 18th century love story that has shoehorned in characters that the audience did not start watching the show for in Season 1

 

However it was decided that there needed to be a change in direction from season 1 it is a shame because a lot of what has made the show unique has been adjusted to make the show into more of a typical cookie cutter TV drama.

Edited November 27, 2014 by vanarnd1

[DearEvette]

By the way where are the other members in the White Witches Coven Katrina and the priest that died in season 1 used to belong? Where are the Dark WItches Coven they were trying to fight? I for sure they would be part of this Rise of Moloch war. I also thought there would be a secret war going on between the different groups. 

 

I would have loved this complexity of plot.  It gives fans something to chew over, endlessly discuss theories, and decide who is a friend and who is a foe.  Now the only real area of speculation is what is Katrina's purpose.  That is NOT the type of discussion you want your fans having about your show.

 

 

 

• Katrina has ended up being a lynchpin for a lot of the plot(which speaks for itself as being a problem)
• Changing a fun, fast paced, action adventure show that maximized the chemistry of the two leads into a slow paced, inconsistent, overly dramatic 18th century love story that has shoehorned in characters that the audience did not start watching the show for in Season 1

 

However it was decided that there needed to be a change in direction from season 1 it is a shame because a lot of what has made the show unique has been adjusted to make the show into more of a typical cookie cutter TV drama.

 

I am convinced this is  leeching the fanbase of people who are not interested in the romantic underpinning they are creating.  Now, this is all anecdotal with no hard data to back it up -- but I notice that a lot of the people who used to live tweet & comment on S1 who self identified as primarily SFF fans seem to no longer be around or at least aren't as vocal.  I am also seeing that the gender representation of the fans of show seems to have shifted more heavily female.  The show has always felt like it skewed a little more female, but for some reason S2 I feel like we are hearing a lot less from male fans. 

 

For a genre show like this to be healthy it needs to appeal across genders and needs to tread the delicate balance of being a credible SFF show that continues to engage SFF fans (who are rabidly loyal) and still includes some romance but doesn't wallow under it.

 

I am sure that making the Apocalypse kick off due to a rivalry over a woman and then casting the whole thing as an 18th century romance novel was definitely the thing that alienated the core of that fanbase.

 

I am so disappointed because I think back to Fringe, and that show managed to keep it's strong sci-fi underpinning, run healthily with it's mythology, do some smart MOW shows and include a great romance.  I am baffled why they don't seem to be able to create that balance with this show.

Edited November 29, 2014 by DearEvette

[DeLurker]

What does SFF mean? Googled it and got Small Form Factor or Same Fanbase Factor neither of which seem to fit. Sorry if this abbreviation is common knowledge.

[formerlyfreedom]

Science Fiction/Fantasy?

 

That's my stab in the dark!

[DearEvette]

Oh, yeah, sorry. So used to being on Science Fiction/Fantasy boards sometimes I forget that not everybody is.   LOL .....  SFF == Science Fiction/Fantasy.

Edited November 29, 2014 by DearEvette

[savinggrace]

I think the changes this season were an attempt to stem the decline of viewers which began last season. Last season the ratings steadily declined from the premiere until the end of the season so something was driving away viewers the first season too.

 

I think the monster-of-the week formula is tired. There have been too many shows with that format. I think sticking to the End of Days/Biblical themes would have kept more viewers. Turning the show into a colonial soap opera pretty much put the nail in the coffin.

[fantique]

I just realised that most of my theories and speculations about season 2 died within the first 3 episodes. I feel like there is nothing to talk about besides:

• Katrina is a tough pill to swallow => I'm tired of her.
• where are all our favourites => baffled at the wasted potential
• the shipping intentions of the writers => couldn't give 2 shits, not what I'm here for.
• whether Goffman is a certified moron => no longer a question
• do the writers + some of the cast need PR lessons => big resounding DUH!

 

This is like the worst case scenario of sci-fi/fantasy stories. Theories and specs keep it alive. They make you want to discuss shit with people. I am full into Game of thrones theories right now and I really wish Sleepy Hollow kept me talking and thinking more. I want more of the use of Corbin's files. I want coven reintroduction (although that seems to be coming via the Salem business, I hope). They never expanded on that good/bad covens thing after 'Blood Moon' and the 'Golem' episode. Katrina can not be the only witch afoot and if the freemasons knew Crane is back then so should both the covens. I have yet to see proof there are more than 25 human beings that live in the Sleepy Hollow universe.

[cynic]

I think the changes this season were an attempt to stem the decline of viewers which began last season. Last season the ratings steadily declined from the premiere until the end of the season so something was driving away viewers the first season too.

I think the monster-of-the week formula is tired. There have been too many shows with that format. I think sticking to the End of Days/Biblical themes would have kept more viewers. Turning the show into a colonial soap opera pretty much put the nail in the coffin.

Yeah, the ratings trend has been pretty much a straight line pointing south throughout the series. The initial drop could probably be attributed to normal new show attrition, but the rest.... Personally, I started losing interest about halfway through season one. It was weird. I loved and obsessively rewatched the first handful of episodes. Then something changed and it got to the point that there were several episodes that i really couldn't be bothered to pay attention to while it was airing. I'm still unsure of what the heck was going on with the golem, because i just couldn't force myself to care. I probably would have dropped the show by now except that i still love Abbie, Crane, and Jenny.

[HalcyonDays]

Personally, I started losing interest about halfway through season one. It was weird. I loved and obsessively rewatched the first handful of episodes. Then something changed and it got to the point that there were several episodes that i really couldn't be bothered to pay attention to while it was airing.

 

I was/am the same was, but was still excited about the show last year. The timing I get is the episode Sanctuary and on. More Katrina, Ichabod's son and the the whole back season devolved into the Crane family drama. The Midnight Ride I think it my most favourite episode, because of the humours, interactions with Irving and Jenny, the fun, action balance. Then they introduced the kid and it started to decline. Partial blame has to do with long breaks, but CFD really hurt the show...

 

And lookie at season 2....

 

I think the changes this season were an attempt to stem the decline of viewers which began last season. Last season the ratings steadily declined from the premiere until the end of the season so something was driving away viewers the first season too.

 

But if they had bothered to read even one of the professional media reviews on the show, two things were repeated. We love Abbie and Ichabod together and Katrina is shady/boring. Kill her.

 

So their response is...to add MORE CFD and Katrina? The hell?

 

You know one of the things I really miss in season 2 that they haven't done, is Abbie and Ichabod just sitting for a few minutes and having a heart to heart conversation. The ending of Sanctuary is what I mean, where Abbie has the rum and they talk. This season, with the marriage and the killing of Henry needed it the most, and there was so many episodes to do it. Have Abbie and Ich sitting in front of the fireplace on the couch and talk. Have them sitting in front of the lake and TALK! I want a long monologue by Abbie on Purgatory, or how she feels about her current situation. I want a long monologue by Ichabod on doubting his wife and all of the behaviours, why he is so adamant to save his son. Saying "he's my son" isn't enough.

 

I really miss that. The show had the time to do it, but instead they have squandered these bonding moments completely, to insert a couple of muses into the mix.

[MissAlmond]

Judging from what I remember of the comments on TV By The Numbers, the first rumblings started after the reveal of Headless being Katrina's ex-beau.  For a show that seemed to be full force at  total batshit crazy, this reveal seemed small.  But the first warning shot seemed to become lost with the whole the Sin Eater is the Crane's son cliffhanger and all the media hype that followed.  

 

And I too wanted to see more of the TOWN of Sleepy Hollow in Season 2.  At the risk of repeating myself, I wanted to see who was good, who was evil and who were  ordinary citizens watching their town go to hell and wondering if the time had come to move.  Sadly, none of that happened and now a lot of viewers are past caring, Mark Guffman's pleas of "trust me" none withstanding.

[savinggrace]

I agree about the townspeople of Sleepy Hollow needing to be more visible. They don't need to have major roles but they could be recurring minor roles that hint at everyday life. Maybe a barrista at the Starbucks where Abbie gets her coffee, whoever runs the deli where Hawley got the matzo ball soup. Ichabod's re-enactment friends, the mailman, the butcher, the baker.. the candlestick maker. Anyone really. Why should we care about the fate of Sleepy Hollow when we don't know anybody in the town save 3 or 4 people?

Edited November 29, 2014 by savinggrace

[blixie]

I could swear that Orlando as much implied early on that Irving's loyalties were unclear, but that there were good coven's and bad coven's and basically being like yeah Irving is a witch but we won't know which side he's on for a while. Instead they scrapped the warring coven's plot in favor of Whatever will Katrina do next?! This is not Alexis Colby soapy love to hate, this Marrisa Cooper hate bitches, kill her and watch the fans take deep visceral pleasure in her death.

Edited December 3, 2014 by stacey
Inappropriate nickname

[cynic]

I was never very interested in the covens story. I think it's rare to see a witch story done well. The rules, constraints, and consequences of the magic have to be really well thought out and defined for the audience. If the witches are too powerful and do too much, it drains the drama and they tend to end up being used like deus ex machina. If they don't do enough, they end up looking stupid or they're given some lame reason for refusing to act which quickly becomes old. While I love SH, consistent and logical world building is not their strong suit. I'm not at all surprised that they can't handle the few witches they do have. A warring covens story would be completely beyond them.

I actually would have been more interested in the masons story, especially if they had been able to keep James Frain.

[DearEvette]

I agree the show was on an upward trajectory through Necromancer.  And then once Headless was revealed as Abraham that was the CFD started.  And that was the when the show started to lose some of it's lustre for me. My least favorite episodes of S1 were Sanctuary & Golem.  That is also when a lot of disatisfaction creeped into the discussions on TWOP.  People were upset with Crane's Manpain.  And not coincidentally that was the first time I really noticed he got snotty with Abbie -- and not in a fun way.

 

But even so, the ratings were still good.  They had stabilized at, what a 2.3?  That is a 4.0 in Fox numbers.  LOL.

 

For S2, I would have loved for them to keep the Masons around as sort of a opposite of the Hessians that Ichabod & Ab to call on for info and muscle.

 

I also agree that a show can get lazy relying on witches. 

 

When the signs were on the wall that they were bringing Katrina out of Purgatory, i could not figure out how the heck they would fit her in with Team Witness.  She was really superfluous, imo, because they had a lot of bases already covered and I didn't want them to over-rely on her powers and thus overshadow Abbie & ichabod's fight.

 

After seeing that she couldn't make the twig move, I thought  a cool twist would have been that the rise in technology interferes with withcraft.  Some things they can still do (like Reverend Knapp), but a lot of the powers they have are now obsolete, simply don't work in modern times, or really only work in very old places with very old relics.  it would have been a fascinating to see Katrina struggle with the knowledge that the thing that made her special and powerful just wasn't there anymore.  Rather than make her a powerful witch, let her struggle to find her place in the fight given that she no longer had the advantages of powerful withcraft. 

 

I also worried that since we already had Ichabod doing the man-out-of-time stuff, adding Katrina in the mix would have been overkill. Again, a cool thought would have been to contrast her adaptation ot 21st century with Ichabod's.  Whereas ichabod finds things both absurd and cool, why not have her find them distressing and alienating.  And also show the Covens still exist but as jealous rivals hoarding knowlege as well as fighting for good v. evil. With the evil coven being more powerful because they are willing to do forbidden things to stay powerful.  And that opens the door to an alienated, disaffected Katrina going over to the side of evil.

 

Sigh.  If they had insisted on making her such a big part of the show, there were so many more interesting ways to go than Princess Peach.

[HalcyonDays]

Some things they can still do (like Reverend Knapp), but a lot of the powers they have are now obsolete, simply don't work in modern times, or really only work in very old places with very old relics. <snip>

And that opens the door to an alienated, disaffected Katrina going over to the side of evil.

 

DearEvette, I love this to death. Love this idea. Again, how is it that we viewers can easily some up with compelling, creative and interesting stories, yet well paid TV writers cannot.

 

My only hope is this. Kill off Katrina at the end of season 2. Then all of the CFD is over. Get a season 3 and now other areas can be expanded.

[vanarnd1]

But even so, the ratings were still good.  They had stabilized at, what a 2.3?  That is a 4.0 in Fox numbers.  LOL.

It is interesting to track the ratings over the first two seasons. Wikipedia has the demos and total viewers for each episode.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sleepy_Hollow_episodes#Season_1_.282013.E2.80.9314.29_2

 

The second half of Season 1 had pretty stable ratings. The biggest episode to episode drop was "The Necromancer"(2.5 demo) to "Sanctuary"(2.2 demo) which could be attributed to the begining of more Katrina and the CFD. Still though the rest of the season never dropped below a 2.2 and the finale actually rose to a 2.4. even though there was a month break in between episodes 10 and 11.

 

This tells me that if the two-parter to end Season 1 had gone differently, the audience was still there to build on, which is a shame because it is hard to gain back viewers who leave after a season finale. That has showed itself in Season 2 as the premiere fell to a 2.0 demo and the next episode "The Kindred" fell to a 1.7 and  the ratings have been ticking down since that point.

 

And also the problem is that is is very hard to adjust direction of a show mid-season because of how far in advance the episodes are filmed. There would have to be a lot of post-filming edits and seems like no one in charge of the show has enough of a concern to change what is going on.

 

If Sleepy Hollow were on any other network it would be in a much greater danger of being canceled, the problem is it doesn't seem likely that TPTB will take advantage of the ratings leeway and we as an audience will keep getting the same type of show that caused the decline in the first place.

Edited November 29, 2014 by vanarnd1

[cynic]

...

After seeing that she couldn't make the twig move, I thought a cool twist would have been that the rise in technology interferes with withcraft. Some things they can still do (like Reverend Knapp), but a lot of the powers they have are now obsolete, simply don't work in modern times, or really only work in very old places with very old relics. it would have been a fascinating to see Katrina struggle with the knowledge that the thing that made her special and powerful just wasn't there anymore. Rather than make her a powerful witch, let her struggle to find her place in the fight given that she no longer had the advantages of powerful withcraft.

...

I agree. If they had limited the witches' powers to very specific things like sending telepathic messages, divining information, creating fire etc., it might have been interesting (and frankly amusing) to see Katrina having to deal with her usefulness being diminished by the existence of cell phones, Google, and Bic lighters. Edited November 29, 2014 by cynic

[BigEasygirl]

Your ideas are utterly fantastic, DearEvette. Oh, how I wish the writers had had your creativity the last season and a half.  How different the show would be right now.  *sigh*  Due to the long-term bungling of this character, I'm no longer interested in Katrina having a viable place on the show.  These writers would spend another season on her in an attempt (probably an unsuccessful one) to undo their damage, and neither I (nor the show) could survive it.  lol  The only thing that would satisfy me now is Katrina's death and for her not to be talked about ever again.  I just can't with her anymore.

[fantique]

I could swear that Orlando as much implied early on that Irving's loyalties were unclear, but that there were good coven's and bad coven's and basically being like yeah Irving is a witch but we won't know which side he's on for a while. 

He was just leading people down the false path because quite a few people (like me) really held on to the whole coven thing as a key part of the mythology. It was funny because everyone was sure he knew everything from the beginning so the best reveal was that he in fact knew nothing. I still see potential in whoever sent him to Sleepy Hollow. It does seem strange to have chosen literally the one storytelling option that was just awful. Because the other characterisations of Katrina proposed would not keep those who like her now from liking her but it would have helped us skeptics. 

They found the most obnoxious and least sympathetic way to present the CFC and instead of creating empathy, I just keep rolling my eyes. They could have made Henry show multiple personalities like he is possessed and was tricked into it. Showing flashes of him as a child is not a good enough reason especially since he was buried when he was 16+, he should have at least cultivated a sense of right and wrong by then if he had a good soul that can be redeemed.

loved this past episode but Crane saying to Abe he made a choice to be Death (literally minutes after his best friend betrayed him and he was killed) and yet they talk about redemption for Henry.

[Pete Martell]

I think the main problems are:

 

- someone very cynically assuming that viewers needed more white faces and anything else was threatening or detrimental 

 

- someone assuming the Cranes had to be interesting, and viewers simply needed to be reminded of this over and over until they got it 

 

- overestimating Ichabod Crane's appeal as a character. I've never gotten the hype for him, or Tom Mison, and only cared because of Abbie. Now I don't care at all.

[marceline]

For me it feels like the show is being written by someone who doesn't genuinely like sci-fi/fantasy. It's got all the trappings of the genre but none of the heart or commitment that goes into writing a show like this. Even the scenes where they piece together for the mythology feel like someone just wrote (mystical babble) in the script then had an intern fill in the specifics with "something Biblical/something historical, something magical, blather, rinse, repeat." Like Irving, the show lost its soul in S2.

Edited December 2, 2014 by marceline

[DeLurker]

What went wrong with SH?

 

1.  Katrina

2.  Katrina

3. Katrina

4. Katia Winter

 

Her character had potential, but they just write her ineffectual over and over again;

Take ineffectual character and have everyone praise how wunnerful she is despite the repeated failings;

Make ineffectual character entitled;

Cast an attractive female as ineffectual character, but either direct her or allow her to be "blank".  Not as a blank canvas that the writers story can come to life on, but blank as in chalk dust (because chalk, while bland, can be useful.  Chalk dust - not so much);

Cast an actress who is the equivelant of a black hole in space - the talents of the rest of the cast get sucked into this void whenever they are in a scene with her.

[Indi]

Goffman is a sorry excuse of a showrunner.

 

Katrina Crane is a horrible lifeless character with a vapid face.

 

Katia Winter cannot sell a single scene, emotion or line.

 

The villains keep getting lamer, more ineffectual, childish and idiotic. The Apocalypse never felt so small and wimpy. The only reason it's still going on, it's because the worst character of all, Ichy, somehow has convinced Abbie she needs him, which is preventing her from taking down the Horsemen and all the demons on her own.

 

All the worst characters are being given the priority, focus and character development.

 

Nothing about that mid season finale felt earned. Absolutely nothing.

 

When I think what this show could have been in the right hands, I weep.

[MissAlmond]

Mo Ryan touched on it in that podcast.  I’ve long thought it but do not see myself and want to be labeled a “shipper”.  But this is a show afraid of, and running away from, the chemistry of their two leads.

 

Now I don’t think Goffman sees himself like that.  He believes, he’s young, he’s cool, he’s hip.  He understands social media and has been following comments.  But this is a man who is afraid to push “that” button.  Or afraid that people will think he will push that button.  So he stays in his comfort zone with his real fans, his true fans, his fans who write on SH Facebook walls declaring they need more and more Katrina.  He’s listening and delivering so why the complaints?  Why the distrust? 

 

IMO, for Season 2, SH needed a seasoned television professional at the helm.  One who might not have cast the show as is, but could see viewers and critics responded to it.  One who didn’t necessarily follow social media, but knew that a genre show being praised in the press is always a good thing.  Then know enough to run out and hire a social media person. One who would have hired writers and told them to let their imaginations soar.  One who could herd a Mark Goffman in and tell him: “You’re screwing with my livelihood, Mark”. One who knew he had the rare gift of off the charts chemistry between his leads and immediately went out and sacrificed that goat.

 

 

You don’t have to be a shipper to see and understand the gift of on screen chemistry.  Nobody told SH to write love scene after love scene for Ichabod and Abbie.  Well, maybe some did but that would have been a mistake too.  However, it should be a given to write to ones strengths which for SH are Ichabod and Abbie on screen together.  I felt Season 1 got the two witnesses were right:  Not Abbie and Jenny.  Not Ichabod and Katrina.  But Abbie and Ichabod and it worked to the shows advantage when it had the right writers.  And why mess with the awesomeness that was once Badass Headless?   The leads chemistry and Headless terrorizing  Sleepy Hollow with his ax and AK47 made people sit up and pay notice.  It’s what led to “Fuck Yeah, Sleepy Hollow!”.  Goffman ruined SH for me with his quest to tell us over and over again how we need to know even more of the Crane’s epic love.  He truly believes the chemistry gods landed on Ichabod and Katrina.  Actually, he probably believes the chemistry gods just landed on Katrina, Ichabod just happened to be standing there.  So,  trust him, he’s going to write for that chemistry and make all the true fans happy.

 

 

Really, I need to even give up this board.  But it’s hard  There are some posters here I wish I could have drinks with and truly talk over this.  Plus,  I did love Season 1 so much and had such high hopes.  Sigh.  It’s all so disappointing and sad but I really need to Let. It. Go.  But before then, oh  yeah. Fuck you, Mark Goffman.

[HalcyonDays]

What went wrong with Sleepy Hollow? Mark Goffman and Katrina Crane. That is all...

 

I feel the same as I did after the episode Deliverance....

[TV Juriste]

Judging from what I remember of the comments on TV By The Numbers, the first rumblings started after the reveal of Headless being Katrina's ex-beau.  For a show that seemed to be full force at  total batshit crazy, this reveal seemed small.  But the first warning shot seemed to become lost with the whole the Sin Eater is the Crane's son cliffhanger and all the media hype that followed.  

 

And I too wanted to see more of the TOWN of Sleepy Hollow in Season 2.  At the risk of repeating myself, I wanted to see who was good, who was evil and who were  ordinary citizens watching their town go to hell and wondering if the time had come to move.  Sadly, none of that happened and now a lot of viewers are past caring, Mark Guffman's pleas of "trust me" none withstanding.

That makes so much sense. The first time I started having doubts about the show was when they made the Headless Horseman someone connected to the Cranes. It just felt too petty.

[DeLurker]

I've read some viable theories here, that if they happened, could salvage this show.  My global plea to y'all is to please please please write some fanfic that pulls this story out of the honey bucket so I can stop watching while I am still sane.

Edited December 2, 2014 by DeLurker

[ChelseaNH]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and I think the thing that most went wrong with season 2 is pacing.

 

Season 1 was a wild gallop.  Fun, but ultimately that pace is unsustainable over the long haul.  The fact that things kept moving helped distract from how perfunctory the plotting was, but repetition left us familiar with their usual tricks.  It was time to develop some new tricks.  But nobody wants to mess with a successful formula, even if the formula starts to get stale.

 

Season 1 hooked us on this world they created.  Season 2 was the time to step back, explore that world and build a foundation for the future.  Instead, they kept galloping through plot.  It's only midway through Season 2 and they've finished off Moloch.  Is there still an impending apocalypse?  Who's running it?  How many apocalypse CEOs are they going to run through?

 

I would say the main issue with Crane family drama has been the pacing -- they've tried to cram a soap opera's worth of angst into just 11 episodes, at the expense of many more enjoyable elements of the show.  If that element becomes just one of the season's arcs, rather than THE arc of the half season, then I think it would be far more tolerable.

 

So if they slow that down and spread that out, we have more time to spend with Frank and Jenny.  We have time to add Hawley into the mix, not as Designated Love Interest, but as part of the bigger world that we're starting to explore.  We can spend a little more time with Reyes, who is interesting but has so far been kind of irrelevant.  We can see more of Abbie trying to balance her job with her role as Witness.

 

Outside of the Crane family drama, the issues with Katrina don't have much to do with pacing.  The problem with the character is that she can't be as good as advertised.  If she really is a kick-ass witch, then she will be the one solving problems and delivering wins for the team; Abbie and Ichabod can't compete with that kind of power.  In order to keep this a show about the two witnesses, she has to be hamstrung.  The show has been pretty clumsy about doing that.  If they were willing to do some real world building, they could spend some time figuring out how magic works, other than "There's a spell for that."  Then they could establish why Katrina's powers a limited to certain effects, while other things are beyond her.

 

If anything can happen, then nothing matters.  If every problem can be solved by pulling a magic MacGuffin out of your ass, then the show is basically a quest procedural -- threat, MacGuffin, win.  Create a world with rules, and let characters pursue their agendas within those rules -- then you have a sustainable model.  But that takes time they haven't been willing to spend.

[maraleia]

The other thing that is so irritating is they went out of their way to hire a phenom actress Sakina Jaffrey to play Lt. Reyes and they have done nothing with the character. Another POC character sacrificed at the altar of the white characters on the show. Fuck you Goffman.

[90 Day Pinochet]

One of my gripes that I hadn't seen mentioned is the seeming reluctance to go full on with a religious angle. I'm not even the most religious person but if they're going to bring up the Four Horseman and Revelation they need to acknowledge the whole Judgement Day/End of Times and Christianity in general.Why keep speaking of redemption for Henry but not of God or Jesus? The Bible is treated like some sort of  prop or dictionary for mystical objects (" Oh didn't Judas get 30 coins to betray Jesus? So yeah this evil coin must be one of those!"). It's just weird to me that they won't explore that angle. I think it would attract a ton of viewers.

 

Your comment really made me think about the questions you brought up. I think part of the decision was just pragmatism: After the Moloch arch, I think they want to explore and take from other apocalyptic traditions. Tying themselves to solely the Judeo-Christian understanding of apocalypse would make it harder to create new storylines. 

 

I also think they worry about offending viewers. Demons can be churned and burned for pop-culture fodder without worrying too much about disrespecting viewers' beliefs. However, if the show delved into specifics about the forces of good, the writers would have to decide on specific answers to some sticky metaphysical questions about God. I think this could easily end up alienating both believers and non-believers. They seem to want to take an approach similar to BtVS with Sunnydale sitting on the hellmouth, full to the brim with demons, with lots of talk concerning the state of Angel's soul, but only allusions to concepts like Heaven.

 

But it also seems tonally appropriate because so much of the show is tied up with the themes of faith and redemption. It makes sense that God is at a remove because questions of faith resonant when God is more of an abstract prime mover than a directly intervening actor. This also seems like an appropriate choice because they are addressing aspects of a religious tradition that moves from a religion of the laws in the old testament to a religion of inwardness in the new testament.

 

For example, I think the implications and stakes of being witnesses would be less profound if, for example, angels kept reminding Crane and Abbie about the state of 'the scoreboard'. However, the show doesn't need angels because the witnesses are the instruments of God. According to the show's mythology Crane and Abbie were chosen for the role of witness. How everyone knew that Crane was a witness other than Crane himself is another question... but showrunners also work in mysterious ways.

Edited December 3, 2014 by 90 Day Pinochet

[RiddleyWalker]

 After the Moloch arch, I think they want to explore and take from other apocalyptic traditions. Tying themselves to solely the Judeo-Christian understanding of apocalypse would make it harder to create new storylines. …(edited)

 

I also think they worry about offending viewers. Demons can be churned and burned for pop-culture fodder without worrying too much about disrespecting viewers' beliefs. However, if the show delved into specifics about the forces of good, the writers would have to decide on specific answers to some sticky metaphysical questions about God. I think this could easily end up alienating both believers and non-believers. …(edited

 

But it also seems tonally appropriate because s)o much of the show is tied up with the themes of faith and redemption. It makes sense that God is at a remove because questions of faith resonant when God is more of an abstract prime mover than a directly intervening actor. This also seems like an appropriate choice because they are addressing aspects of a religious tradition that moves from a religion of the laws in the old testament to a religion of inwardness in the new testament.

 

For example, I think the implications and stakes of being witnesses would be less profound if, for example, angels kept reminding Crane and Abbie about the state of 'the scoreboard'. However, the show doesn't need angels because the witnesses are the instruments of God. According to the show's mythology Crane and Abbie were chosen for the role of witness. How everyone knew that Crane was a witness other than Crane himself is another question... but showrunners also work in mysterious ways.

Excellent post! I thought from early on that the premise was too ambitious for the show and there are so many reasons for that which you've outlined admirably. I think making the show less tied to one tradition, to one narrative and text,  frees the show up considerably...

 

Crikey! if they were to bring Christ into the narrative (as sticking to John's Revelation would require) can you imagine the difficulties that would bring? This is a (potentially) positive move IMO. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by RiddleyWalker

[90 Day Pinochet]

I would like it if less dialogue consisted of just beating a demon horse. I feel like 1/3 of this season's dialogue just reestablishes territory that had been covered in previous episodes. Does the show think that appealing to a broader audience means treating the audience like they are team witless?

[HalcyonDays]

I would like it if less dialogue consisted of just beating a demon horse. I feel like 1/3 of this season's dialogue just reestablishes territory that had been covered in previous episodes. Does the show think that appealing to a broader audience means treating the audience like they are team witless?

 

There was an article from earlier this yeah (I forget where) that basically has Goffman saying they dumbed things down a little to appeal to a wider audience. I am completely serious. Sad, isn't it?

[RiddleyWalker]

I've been thinking about this and one of the major problems is that they got personal with evil WAY too soon. Revealing the Horseman of Death as Ichabod's friend Abraham? Wrong move and WAYYYY took soon. That's a last season reveal not appropriate for season one. The big bad of season 2 being Henry/Jeremy Ichabod's son? Bad move and too soon (if one to be made at all).  

 

The death of Moloch is a chance to reboot the Show, I think, (and I hope) the Show makes the most of that and learns from their mistakes. Other shows have so it's not unprecedented. I suppose we'll have to see though it may take a third season.

[90 Day Pinochet]

There was an article from earlier this yeah (I forget where) that basically has Goffman saying they dumbed things down a little to appeal to a wider audience. I am completely serious. Sad, isn't it?

 

Saaay Whaaaat?! I was under the mistaken belief that the first season's cracking pace, fun dialogue, and diverse cast already gave the show a wide appeal. But I am glad Goffman really knows what potential viewers of genre shows are clamoring for: repetitive dialogue. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by 90 Day Pinochet