S02.E08: Heartless

[BigEasygirl]

Wait - what? I thought in the scene with Crane she was wearing a black corset?

What teal shirt? And was Abbie's shirt teal?

Wait - huh?

Can someone point me to these screencaps everyone keeps mentioning of the succubus head tilt? I still don't think the writers really put that in there - that would be too much like right - but okay - now I'm curious.

]

[HalcyonDays]

I rewatched that part, and I could not see any teal, save maybe the corset the Succubus was wearing was teal, but the lighting made it hard to tell. The head tilt is there, and you can see Crane's reaction (eye's widening), but I think it's more a reaction to Lilith's (the Succubus' names) eyes going yellow, then to the Abbie head tilt. Someone can correct me if I am wrong.

 

Other miscellanous parts that I did like...Hawley's comments for sure.

Crane (in nightclub): "Is that clear?" Hawley: "Like Vodka."

His crack about not having her for breakfest. Joking that he didn't think Crane could handle a gun!

 

This is NOT a shipper thing, but the final scene with Crane and Hawley - dammit, even they have more chemistry than Katrina and Ichabod. They have a nice vibe between them (buddy vibe!), that I really liked. I would like to see more of those two together (just like I would love to see more Jenny/Ichabod scenes).

 

Abbie actually called Katrina condescending (which she was). Good job, Abs! Tell it like it is.

 

All of Abbie's facial expressions. Pure Gold. I don't think I've ever seen such a facially expressive actress like Beharie before. It's amazing how one look can convey so much...She is so done with Katrina it's not funny. Even at the end, when Katrina is saying she is difficult (no, really?), and Abbie says something nice to her, then Katrina says something about saving Henry, again, Abbie rolls her eyes and is like "How can  you be so dumb!" Beautifully done.

[Carrie Ann]

The succubus is wearing an almost identical outfit to Abbie's in the bar scene with Hawley, including a teal v-neck, so maybe that's what the costumer's tweets were about. In the scene with Ichabod, she starts out at the club in a black top with buckles across the front, but when she's alone with him outside, she's wearing an outfit almost identical to Katrina's, including the aqua-colored corset top. FWIW, I liked that her outfits were never actually identical to the person she was mimicking. I thought that was a nice touch. But even as an Ichabbie shipper, I found absolutely nothing in the Ichabod/Succubus scene to relate to Abbie or their relationship, other than the fact that she said that his feelings for Katrina (presumably) had "soured in his heart." Yes, good. That head tilt above was I think just in relation to her realizing that she couldn't seduce him, and that she was just going to go for the direct attack. If it was a reference to Abbie, then cool, but I didn't see it like that.

[fantique]

@phoenics I don't have proper images because I can't use screenshots here but when they show the succubus in front of crane and reveal her outfit, the bodice and the undershirt are teal (which has primarily been an Abbie colour, she and Crane are both the only people to have a lot of blue-adjacent colours because I remember in an interview she mentioned not wanting anyone to wear full on blue because it's a hopeful colour. Katrina wears a lot of black, greys and greens) like Abbie's t-shirt in the next scene when they very heavily point the camera on both Katrina and Abbie's tops. It could 2 things here, either they want his doubt of Katrina to be manifested through him having a subconscious desire (romantic or not) for Abbie and their partnership (represented by teal) or they really wanted to ram it home that the succubus was very obviously copying Katrina and not Abbie (this is more likely).

 

 

 I'm actually glad that instead of having a married man pine for another and turning Abbie into the other woman, whether as a mistress or via an emotional affair, they they seem to be writing the Cranes as falling apart first. Besides which I don't need Ichabod and Abbie to be a couple for the show to work for me. They have chemistry that works on every level, romantic is the least of it.  

 

I don't care for Hawley and Abbie because of the Jenny factor and I don't see them as people who would be drawn to one another beyond physically. Whether he's a spoiler or an fallback to taking the ichabbie route, I don't look forward to the show going there.

I do think that they have an idea of them being together later as endgame, which I think I will be fine with. Sometimes I think we forget that it's the 21st episode in a show that has the ambition of lasting "7 years of tribulations". They have to write for the now though so I don't begrudge them for not addressing the leads' chemistry as a romantic one.

I also strongly agree with you on being glad they are not making Abbie a "home-wrecker". I am hoping that they're trying to sell us Katrina they want us to be surprised! or unhappy when she goes dark. Yeah...I am still in my bargaining stage of grief. An interview on Afterbuzz TV with Neil Jackson (Abraham) revealed that Katrina is going to change her look to more underworld like badass around episode 12 and that suggest she is going to be full on fighter for good or evil at some point.

 

I just think that it's not a matter if wanting romantic Ichabbie so much as not wanting Ichatrina. I think their marriage is poisoned and nobody wants to see that. It makes Crane look stupid and delusional. Although in his character's defence, I think that he would be the type of married person who would feel shame in "giving up". Every time there is a sign that he does not feel as strongly as he used to, he stubbornly holds on tighter to his marriage. 

 

I also don't need the 2 leads together or with anyone really. I just really like their friendship for now and unless the romantic relationship they're in makes them change from the character I like or has gross implications (like with Hawley), I don't care who they get with. I don't know why the show had to introduce a love interest for Abbie and then give him that awkward history with her sister. What was the point? Just give her a handsome, decent guy with no baggage if you must put her in a relationship. Someone without baggage would at least help us see a more vulnerable side because it will be about him helping her with her issues as opposed to her being the "healer" in that relationship. I just want more Jenny and family time before that though. In theory they should have done ok with Hawley. He came in early (at least earlier than I expected him), they get used to one another and then introduce the idea of attraction but then they blundered with the Jenny factor. It also doesn't help that he seems like a douche which I'm hoping gets changed if he is to be more involved with their group. He was already more palatable when showing self-doubt this week. 

Honestly, the show can't do romance well so just stick to the cooky premise with self-referential jokes and cop buddy comedy with Abbie and Ichabod. That is way more fun.

[Neurochick]

Crane's undying love for Katrina is, to me, just getting close to Tori Spelling and Dean What's his face levels of "soul mates" nonsense.  

[BigEasygirl]

I think Crane's eyes widening could be to show a combination of things. One is that he's shocked at what he's seeing: i.e., the all to familiar Abbie head tilt in addition to the Succubus's eyes beginning to glow, indicating that she about to attack. But I don't think it's solely Crane's fear of her attacking him. He might have gotten a bit of a wake-up call about something buried so deep that he's been totally unaware of its existence up to that point. I think it could also be surprise that she did that move with him in full awareness of her MO. She gleans her victims most latent desires, and once having done so accurately, she's endowed with the ability to take their life force. Her eyes beginning to glow right after or at the moment she tilted her head means that she correctly identified Crane's two-fold desires as first, wanting to trust Katrina but being unable to, thus the souring in his heart; and lastly, his wanting Abbie (on some level). I'm not even sure that scene is so much about Crane gaining that tidbit self-awareness as much as it is foreshadowing or a big ass anvil for the audience concerning where things are going to go.

But one thing is for sure, that scene had a definite purpose, and it wasn't about some secret desire for his own wife.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Reese

[phoenics]

I'm not convinced that the scene with the succubus and her tilting her head like Abbie was meant to convey that she was also Abbie... I just don't feel like the writers are going there... that would be too much like right.

It would be epic if that was there though... EPIC...

But I think it was very subtle - I do wonder - did the Succubus ever tilt her head like she did with Crane for anyone else before she went in for the kill?

[SouthernGal]

...when they show the succubus in front of crane and reveal her outfit, the bodice and the undershirt are teal

Fantique, thank you for confirming the color she was wearing.  I definitely think the costume designer was referring to this scene because of her other comment (which I should have posted upthread too) that she posted right before the mention of the teal t-shirt on the succubus:

Frocktalk @Frocktalk  ·  Nov 10

Dayummmm Ichabod be careful of that succubus! She'll read your heart's desire!!!! #SleepyHollow

I need to pay closer attention when I rewatch.  So looking forward to Monday's episode!

 

edited to spell correctly.

Edited November 13, 2014 by SouthernGal

[DeLurker]

I'd like to see what would be revealed if Abbie encountered the Succubus.

[Carrie Ann]

Sorry to be a crazy person, but the tweet about the teal t-shirt on the Succubus came at 8:21, according to the costume designer's Twitter feed, and that was the Hawley scene. I think in the tweet before that, she was just issuing a general warning to Ichabod because she ships Ichabbie, and that scene was where they and Katrina figure out it's a succubus and Katrina expositions about what a succubus does.

Edited November 12, 2014 by Carrie Ann

[savinggrace]

I don't think there was any doubt the Succubus was imitating Katrina with Crane just as there was no doubt she was playing Abbie for Hawley. The Succubus was wearing the same corset/cardigan combo Katrina wore all episode and had a similar hairstyle.

[fantique]

Fatigue, thank you for confirming the color she was wearing.  

No problem but um... It's fantique, not fatigue because that would be a sad name :(.

 

As I said in my earlier post, I think it's more likely that they were trying to emphasise that it had Katrina's likeness. I think the hidden desire is that he wants to trust his wife but he.just.can't. And he feels ashamed of that because that means he is not believing in his own spouse. Goes back to his not wanting to "give up".

[mythoughtis]

I don't know why we needed Hawley in place of Jenny, or why we just can't have Jenny.. . However, if we have to have him, he should be paired with Jenny,  There was a little chemistry there.  Abby/Hawley is just boring... as is Crane/Katrina.   I don't need Frank, but I don't like the new commander.   What happened to the Asian guy, or Luke?  How did the baby get born, as I thought they managed to prevent that last week?

 

Why is the Headless Horseman a love-sick puppy, when he is supposed to be a raging maniac?    

[topanga]

 

Nicole Beharie better win the Emmy for Best Eye Roll.

 

 

This wasn't as bad as I thought it would be.  Abbie got to speak her/our mind.  Someone should do an Abbie eye-roll count.   I think Abbie must've done at least 6.

After a careful re-watch of the episode, Abbie rolled her eyes 27 times and gave side-eye (i.e. a WTF? face) exactly 26 times. Her looks were directed at Katrina 28 times, Ichabod 17 times, and Hawley 8 times. It seems like a lot, but Abbie would sometimes roll her eyes and give side-eye several times during a scene, e.g. Crane and Abbie's conversation about Hawley and opening their hearts to new possibilities (3 eye rolls, 1 side-eye) or Abbie and Katrina's conversation the morning after they destroyed the Succubus (4 eye rolls, 7 side-eyed looks).

[BigEasygirl]

^You know what's sad? The show has said that Abbie is the voice of the audience, so if she's rolling her eyes practically out of her head and making WTF faces at three different characters the number of times you stated, then they know this show is a hot mess. They know it and don't care.

[Indi]

^You know what's sad? The show has said that Abbie is the voice of the audience, so if she's rolling her eyes practically out of her head and making WTF faces at three different characters the number of times you stated, then they know this show is a hot mess. They know it and don't care.

 

And they made "the voice of the audience" say Katrina is an asset. But you know, just like the Heartless/Ichy scene was meant to sell Ichatrina without having to deal with the anti-chemistry, Abbie was there to tell us we should accept and like Katrina, just because. Lazy.

[savinggrace]

Upon rewatching, I realized that Hawley said it was midnight when Abbie called him to the bar. Abbie said he had his "signals mixed up" but in general when a woman calls a guy late at night to meet up he's gonna assume it's a booty call. I don't think he had his signals mixed up so much as he was duped. Abbie probably could have mentioned that it was business-related when she called him. Haha. Poor Hawley.

[green]

I think it's interesting that Hawley is perceived as "stealing" Jenny's screen time. Really it's Katrina. ...

 

I think the point is that blonde dude has replaced Jenny's role and has become a male version of Jenny.  A slightly gray, outside-the-law person who can kick some ass and has the long experience and ability to find the artifact of the week thus making Jenny in effect replaced and not needed.  How weirdly idiotic to give him all of Jenny's attributes and skills.

 

Also I hate he is suppose to be Abbie's future boyfriend or something.  Why oh why does every woman "need" to have a man in her life all the time on TV shows.  That is totally different then real life.  And plenty of male characters on shows are all about their careers and/or action guys battling evil without the "need" for a girl friend to prop them up and somehow give them the happiness they can't possible find on their own (barf).  Show must have an all male writing staff so full of themselves who think "the little ladies" can't exist without love interests every 2 minutes.

[Indi]

I still can't believe the show wasted precious time on that Ichy and Heartless scene. There wasn't anything hidden about his desire for his wife or his trust issues. He's been very loud and repetitive about both to anyone, who cared to listen (Abbie). And Ichy's eyes widening in shock at her revelation was the icing on the cheese cake. WTF, show?

Edited November 13, 2014 by Indi

[EAV]

When fans have to look so deeply for meaning into what has been written, I think that's a problem. You can't keep everyone happy. Pick a thought and stick to it. The overarching theme of this season is war causing dissension, and not necessarily by the methods we immediately jump to when we usually think of war.  So in my opinion, if you are going to tell a story about an emotional war, make it compelling. Make the stakes high. The way Katrina and Ichabod have been portrayed this season does not make the stakes high. For example, having Katrina gone from team witness should not feel like "FINALLY!"  And there's no stakes for me as a viewer with Ichabod's inner turmoil because they have bastardized all the rational out of his character. A nuanced character made one note. He might be "enchanted"? Well drop a few more hints in that direction so he doesn't come off as some love addled fool.  Or tone deaf to the world and people around him.

 

This season too has mostly had Abbie reacting to things. ...Except for the things that would be important to her overall growth as a character. Purgatory? Drowning? I know she's one focused person but she isn't a machine. Not to mention she's the strategist. It makes no sense to me as a viewer that in 8 episodes she hasn't tried to work out a plan of offense rather than defense, with or without Ichabod.

 

The lack of Jenny and Irving is more than annoying at this point. It's willfully ignorant on the writer's part. Two very intriguing storylines dropped. Two storylines that could have seamlessly been integrated a lot sooner than episode 9 into the emotional war theme they appear to be going for.

 

And last, I do not need a jealousy subplot with Abbie and Ichabod. Just please. Get your overarching theme right before you throw that crap complication in.

[BigEasygirl]

And there's no stakes for me as a viewer with Ichabod's inner turmoil because they have bastardized all the rational out of his character. A nuanced character made one note. He might be "enchanted"? Well drop a few more hints in that direction so he doesn't come off as some love addled fool.  Or tone deaf to the world and people around him.

I can't tell you how annoyed and saddened I am that they've made Ichabod into a one dimensional character who not only is unlikeable and unsympathetic but is also a shortsighted dim bulb even though he knows absolutely everything known to man. I don't think I can even articulate how I disheartened I am with Crane's deconstruction.

Along with everything else you mentioned--including Abbie's irksome marginalization and lack of any real POV or consistent development outside of being a "kickass mule" who does all the work--it's just too much.

Edited November 13, 2014 by Reese

[DeLurker]

 

After a careful re-watch of the episode, Abbie rolled her eyes 27 times and gave side-eye (i.e. a WTF? face) exactly 26 times.

Topanga - that is too funny!  A much higher eye roll count than I would have expected, but thank you for spending the time to do the tally for us!  Now I want to see a video of all those eye rolls edited into one place.  And an eye roll tally every week.  And a Kindred to call my own.  And a unicorn.

 

I strongly suspect that those eye rolls and WTF faces showed up unscripted in rehearsal and someone opted to leave them in.  I can't believe that all the crew who worked on kickass S1 are enamored with the direction S2 has taken so I am hoping for some mutiny.

Edited November 13, 2014 by DeLurker

[HalcyonDays]

 

After a careful re-watch of the episode, Abbie rolled her eyes 27 times and gave side-eye (i.e. a WTF? face) exactly 26 times. Her looks were directed at Katrina 28 times, Ichabod 17 times, and Hawley 8 times. It seems like a lot, but Abbie would sometimes roll her eyes and give side-eye several times during a scene, e.g. Crane and Abbie's conversation about Hawley and opening their hearts to new possibilities (3 eye rolls, 1 side-eye) or Abbie and Katrina's conversation the morning after they destroyed the Succubus (4 eye rolls, 7 side-eyed looks).

 

You counted! I love you Topanga! That's best, and probably how many times *I* rolled my eyes. I mean, the stupid, it hurts. Beharie must have needed her own aspirin because of all of the side-eye!

 

 

^You know what's sad? The show has said that Abbie is the voice of the audience, so if she's rolling her eyes practically out of her head and making WTF faces at three different characters the number of times you stated, then they know this show is a hot mess. They know it and don't care.

 

Apparently they don't. Apparently they are "shocked" at the ratings drop, shocked that people are complaining about the show and are clueless as to why. Yet this whole media thing blew up like two weeks ago. Seriously, they had no intern/minion checking weekly on the reviews of the show since day 1? The only good thing; if they decide to change things, the show is very good as last minute writing/filming. I expect the back half 6 episodes will be going through drastic rewrites.

 

And there's no stakes for me as a viewer with Ichabod's inner turmoil because they have bastardized all the rational out of his character. A nuanced character made one note. He might be "enchanted"? Well drop a few more hints in that direction so he doesn't come off as some love addled fool.  Or tone deaf to the world and people around him.

 

   I can't tell you how annoyed and saddened I am that they've made Ichabod into a one dimensional character who not only is unlikeable and unsympathetic but is also a shortsighted dim bulb even though he knows absolutely everything known to man. I don't think I can even articulate how I disheartened I am with Crane's deconstruction.

    Along with everything else you mentioned--including Abbie's irksome marginalization and lack of any real POV or consistent development outside of being a "kickass mule" who does all the work--it's just too much.

 

And this is all writing. In some interview somewhere, Mison said that they do not improvise; they rehease the scene many times but don't change the dialogue. This is what I said in Deliverance; it's complete character assassination for all those around. Powerful shady witch? Okay, let's make her NOT shady, never discuss her lies, and have her faint and be unable to perform magic time and time again, and be replaced by Abbie (not that having Abbie do magic is a bad thing, but you know what I mean.)

 

Let's have an extremely intelligent man who values integrity, honour, honesty and duty, but have have him lose every brain cell the moment his wife walks in, and backstabs his witness partner over and over again. Abbie not afraid to speak her mind? Let's have her remain silent over and over, when you know she never would. Thanks writers.

 

The path was right there for them to take. Embrace the shady Katrina, have her play both sides, have Ichabod struggle over this, and have Katrina PLAYING Ichabod over the redemption; he is against it but he keeps getting enchanted by Katrina. Have Frank still suspect of murder but not locked away at Tarrytown. He is still at his job, but trust for him is lost because of the charges, which are dubious (the evidence itself on the show is dubious - no police would ever charge him). Have Jenny maybe drawn into the Irving family drama, somehow link it to her past, but have her help him. Do NOT sideline her. At the same time, make the impact of War and Death together much more taxing on the town, the people, ec, on a grander scale. Have no love-sick Headless; he would have been better off fighting for favour with Moloch, but NOT mooning over Katrina. And he wouldn't have too, because she is already chosen the dark side. Then throw in some crazy-ass twist, and you are done!

[DeLurker]

 

Apparently they are "shocked" at the ratings drop, shocked that people are complaining about the show and are clueless as to why.

Because Goffman has his fingers in his ears, saying "LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU!"?

[saber5055]

 

The head tilt is there, and you can see Crane's reaction (eye's widening), but I think it's more a reaction to Lilith's (the Succubus' names) eyes going yellow, then to the Abbie head tilt.

I didn't know Abbie had a copyright on being able to tilt her head. Everyone can do it. Katrina. Miss Caroline. Jenny. Hawley. Heck, even Crane can tilt his head. As can Henry. Not so sure about Abraham.

[HalcyonDays]

I didn't know Abbie had a copyright on being able to tilt her head. Everyone can do it. Katrina. Miss Caroline. Jenny. Hawley. Heck, even Crane can tilt his head. As can Henry. Not so sure about Abraham.

 

I think I was trying to say that the head tilt is something that Abbie does a lot, therefore could indicate her, like Crane with the twitchy fingers. Anyone can do wide teary eyes too, but I've only ever seen it on Katrina - over and over again. I don't think so anymore (re the tilt). Nice one on the Abraham, though. Hee.

[topanga]

^You know what's sad? The show has said that Abbie is the voice of the audience, so if she's rolling her eyes practically out of her head and making WTF faces at three different characters the number of times you stated, then they know this show is a hot mess. They know it and don't care.

 

Topanga - that is too funny!  A much higher eye roll count than I would have expected, but thank you for spending the time to do the tally for us!  Now I want to see a video of all those eye rolls edited into one place.  And an eye roll tally every week.  And a Kindred to call my own.  And a unicorn.

 

I strongly suspect that those eye rolls and WTF faces showed up unscripted in rehearsal and someone opted to leave them in.  I can't believe that all the crew who worked on kickass S1 are enamored with the direction S2 has taken so I am hoping for some mutiny.

 

And this is all writing. In some interview somewhere, Mison said that they do not improvise; they rehease the scene many times but don't change the dialogue. This is what I said in Deliverance; it's complete character assassination for all those around.

 

I just want to make it clear that in no way am I criticizing Nicole Beharie's acting choices. Abbie's eye roles and side eyes are not substitutes for actual emotions (hello, Lauryn Hill in "Sister Act II"), and they're usually accompanied by an important action or line of dialogue, meaning that the rolling eyes/side-eyes serve to enhance the great reactions that Nicole Beharie has already conveyed. e.g.:

 

• Abbie raises her hand and says, "Uh, okay. This again?" when Katrina starts waxing poetic about saving Henry. Accompanied by an eye roll

 

• She gives Crane the side-eye and says half-jokingly, "What the hell are you talking about?" when Crane gives his rambling speech about her possibly developing a social relationship with Hawley.
•  
• The morning after they destroy the Succubus, Abbie asks Katrina if she's convinced now that she has to stop Henry, and Katrina answers that she's convinced that she has to stop evil. Cue: Abbie's eye roll    --I believe Abbie would have jumped all over Katrina's non-answer if it were written in the script.

[cassandle]

This week's and last week's episodes both sat in my DVR until last night, which is sad considering I must have rewatched Season 1 a dozen times over the summer.  I just couldn't bring myself to care.  And I can't really add anything more to the comments except this:  The "playful" fake-out in the opening scene?  No.  Just no.  They already ran that gimmick into the ground on Angel over a decade ago.  Wesley and Gunn are discussing how to kill a demon--oh, wait, no, they're really playing Risk!  Gunn and Fred are discussing how to kill a demon?  Nope, they're just organizing the weapons cabinet!  NO!  It wasn't funny or clever then and it's not funny or clever now.  (With the exception of the Yolanda scene--but that's it--it can stop now.)

[topanga]

...And I can't really add anything more to the comments except this:  The "playful" fake-out in the opening scene?  No.  Just no.  They already ran that gimmick into the ground on Angel over a decade ago.  Wesley and Gunn are discussing how to kill a demon--oh, wait, no, they're really playing Risk!  Gunn and Fred are discussing how to kill a demon?  Nope, they're just organizing the weapons cabinet!  NO!  It wasn't funny or clever then and it's not funny or clever now.  (With the exception of the Yolanda scene--but that's it--it can stop now.)

No, it wasn't funny at all, but I think it could have worked better if it were filmed and executed differently. Ichabod and Katrina didn't look like they were making statements about love while watching TV or talking to another person. They looked like they were talking into the camera. And Katrina never sounds like she's talking to an actual person--except for her conversations with Abbie, I've noticed. Besides those times, she sounds like a Shakespearean actress reciting lines.

[SouthernGal]

No problem but um... It's fantique, not fatigue because that would be a sad name :(.

 

As I said in my earlier post, I think it's more likely that they were trying to emphasise that it had Katrina's likeness. I think the hidden desire is that he wants to trust his wife but he.just.can't. And he feels ashamed of that because that means he is not believing in his own spouse. Goes back to his not wanting to "give up".

 

I am so sorry; typo fixed.  You’re right.  Here’s what she says to Ichabod:

 

You were at the docks.  You denied me my satisfaction, but not this time.

 

I can sense your desire.  It burns strong, even though you try so hard to hide it.  (Ichabod shakes his head “no”)

And yet, the emotion in your heart has soured, hasn’t it?

 

I know that taste, it’s the taste of doubt.

You don’t have to be strong anymore.  You don’t have to pretend you’re not scared of losing all you love.  Let me take your doubt away.

If it's a hidden desire, I don't think it's about trusting his wife.  I could be completely wrong, but the hidden desire would be Abbie and the emotion that is going sour is for Katrina.

[BigEasygirl]

^I agree. The clues are really all there in the dialogue imo. There's not even a need for mimicking Abbie. It's spelled out in the words.

[Iamsweetdee]

Sorry, still not seeing anything pointing to Abbie. It doesn't really matter as I doubt the show will last long enough to deconstruct Ichabod/Katrina, have him deal with that, deal with his crazy kid, then fall for Abbie. Just don't see it. Actually, the way things are going on the show, I DON'T want to see it attempted. It's bad enough they are setting up giving Abbie her sister's sloppy seconds, she doesn't need to get Katrina's as well. 

[ChelseaNH]

The show has said that Abbie is the voice of the audience, so if she's rolling her eyes practically out of her head and making WTF faces at three different characters the number of times you stated, then they know this show is a hot mess.

 

Or they know that Team Witness is a hot mess, as they intended them to be.  It's an entirely typical development for a show like this to have some dissension among the team.  Because well-functioning partnerships tend to be light on drama, which is what the show is supposed to provide.

[starchild215]

I have an idea that follows up yuggapukka's.

 

The main goal of evil is to split the Witnesses. If they're split evils plans can go forward. Enter Katrina from Purgatory. Ichabod, an honorable man, would of course go back to his wife, something would make it harder for him to work with Abbie. If Katrina is being controlled by the necklace then her inability to work a spell is explainable. Ichabod is very torn at this point and a lot has fallen on Abbie. Next week we see her and Jenny dealing with their past, something that would be a major distraction to her.

 

I'm not saying this is what the writers have in mind but if it is they could move it along a bit faster.

[rainsmom]

I finally made it through this episode. It took three separate tries. Answering work emails has become more entertaining than this show. What happened to the must-watch show of season 1????

 

Katrina is useless and annoying, and I'm just about done with this show. Seriously DONE. I want her dead. Not evil. Not stuck in Purgatory. Not knocking boots with Headless (who is decidedly less interesting with a head). And definitely not coming between Ichabod and Abbie. Every moment she is on the screen or even MENTIONED by Ichabod is another nail in the coffin of this once-awesome show.

[fantique]

After a careful re-watch of the episode, Abbie rolled her eyes 27 times and gave side-eye (i.e. a WTF? face) exactly 26 times. Her looks were directed at Katrina 28 times, Ichabod 17 times, and Hawley 8 times. It seems like a lot, but Abbie would sometimes roll her eyes and give side-eye several times during a scene, e.g. Crane and Abbie's conversation about Hawley and opening their hearts to new possibilities (3 eye rolls, 1 side-eye) or Abbie and Katrina's conversation the morning after they destroyed the Succubus (4 eye rolls, 7 side-eyed looks).

At this point I don't know if it's hilarious or sad. I will settle for laughter, best medicine and all that rubbish. 

 

I still can't believe the show wasted precious time on that Ichy and Heartless scene. There wasn't anything hidden about his desire for his wife or his trust issues. He's been very loud and repetitive about both to anyone, who cared to listen (Abbie). And Ichy's eyes widening in shock at her revelation was the icing on the cheese cake. WTF, show?

I think it's the writers telling us that the doubt is all part of their clever grand design... Sarcasm.

 

When fans have to look so deeply for meaning into what has been written, I think that's a problem. You can't keep everyone happy. Pick a thought and stick to it. The overarching theme of this season is war causing dissension, and not necessarily by the methods we immediately jump to when we usually think of war.  So in my opinion, if you are going to tell a story about an emotional war, make it compelling. Make the stakes high. The way Katrina and Ichabod have been portrayed this season does not make the stakes high. For example, having Katrina gone from team witness should not feel like "FINALLY!"  And there's no stakes for me as a viewer with Ichabod's inner turmoil because they have bastardized all the rational out of his character. A nuanced character made one note. He might be "enchanted"? Well drop a few more hints in that direction so he doesn't come off as some love addled fool.  Or tone deaf to the world and people around him.

 

This season too has mostly had Abbie reacting to things. ...Except for the things that would be important to her overall growth as a character. Purgatory? Drowning? I know she's one focused person but she isn't a machine. Not to mention she's the strategist. It makes no sense to me as a viewer that in 8 episodes she hasn't tried to work out a plan of offense rather than defense, with or without Ichabod.

 

The lack of Jenny and Irving is more than annoying at this point. It's willfully ignorant on the writer's part. Two very intriguing storylines dropped. Two storylines that could have seamlessly been integrated a lot sooner than episode 9 into the emotional war theme they appear to be going for.

 

And last, I do not need a jealousy subplot with Abbie and Ichabod. Just please. Get your overarching theme right before you throw that crap complication in.

I love your entire post. Marry me please!

 

The path was right there for them to take. Embrace the shady Katrina, have her play both sides, have Ichabod struggle over this, and have Katrina PLAYING Ichabod over the redemption; he is against it but he keeps getting enchanted by Katrina. Have Frank still suspect of murder but not locked away at Tarrytown. He is still at his job, but trust for him is lost because of the charges, which are dubious (the evidence itself on the show is dubious - no police would ever charge him). Have Jenny maybe drawn into the Irving family drama, somehow link it to her past, but have her help him. Do NOT sideline her. At the same time, make the impact of War and Death together much more taxing on the town, the people, ec, on a grander scale. Have no love-sick Headless; he would have been better off fighting for favour with Moloch, but NOT mooning over Katrina. And he wouldn't have too, because she is already chosen the dark side. Then throw in some crazy-ass twist, and you are done!

Can you please write the show? Pretty please? With cherry on top?

 

I am seriously hoping for a better week. I am. This show needs to go back to the good ole times. I am praying really hard that they listen to critics, because critics loved this show last year and it's a shame.

[M1977G]

Abbie's an all-star for calling Katrina out on her condescending, manipulative, and fantasy bullshit!  At last.  K had it coming, but then she goes and runs off to be a demon baby mama and tells Abbs she has to be the one to break Ichy's heart because the wimpy witch of the west is a coward, on top of being a liar and the mother of a horseman of war and now baby Moloch (who turned out to be so cute!).  Hate Katrina.  Really hoping she's doing a double agent thing, and not her weak and needing to be rescued (again) thing.  Forget her dumbness in still wearing the necklace, why is she still wearing a corset she snatched off a drunk girl at the hospital?  

 

I don't care so much that Hawley did the nasty with Jenny--mostly by not thinking about it.  Because he's hot, and because I want Abbie to get some.  Girl's got to blow off steam some kind of way, and if I knew I was facing the possible end of days, I'd be looking to have a little fun. I don't think Abbie is clueless with him, I think she's uncomfortable with his interest (and likely her own), and isn't ready to encourage it for a few reasons (and she doesn't even know he got naked with her sis yet--that will be some dramatic reveal, I'm sure).  One, she's not about to get distracted from being a steadfast Witness, and I think what she sees in Crane's dumbass behavior regarding his wife and kid gives her pause in thinking about a romantic relationship for herself.  And, two, he's a bit of a dog, in part because he doesn't really know how to act besides a player.  This showed in the bar when he went after the two women in front of Abbie.  Dick move, but clearly it was to try to make her jealous (which it did) and was a rather immature if fairly human response to being rejected by someone you've exposed some vulnerability to.  So, I'm willing to sit back and see how/if Hawley matures from his player/privateering ways, especially if he will go shirtless again.  I also agree that he has good chemistry with Crane, and I think they were cast to be both mirrors and foils of each other.  They both want to be the smartest guy in the room, they compete for Abbie's  attention, and there are strong physical resemblances.  Not only are they both tall with rangy frames, they have beards and shaggy hair, and even dress similarly, with their collarless jackets and open neck shirts--despite the stylistic differences in era.  Hawley is a more modern Ichabod.  I am enjoying their slowly budding bromance, complete with its rivalries.

Edited November 14, 2014 by M1977G

[cyan]

Guys, here's the thing. According to Tumblr, the übersuit in charge of the show last year was fired. Based on what we are seeing, the replacement is a sexist, racist idiot who obviously has a problem with:

• Having two leads of equal importance which comprise a white dude and an OMG black OMG woman;
• A main cast in which there are 3 white people (Ichabod, Katrina, Henry) and 4 people of colour (Abbie, Jenny, Irving and Andy). Like ACTUALLY MORE MAIN POC CHARACTERS THAN WHITE, no, that is just not the done thing;
• Women who have agency and make choices;
• Women who are skilled and effective at what they do;
• And some of what they do is literally beat, magic and shoot the crap out of people;

 

And fairly detectably made the writers contort the story into:

• Motherfucking swooning;
• A character walking around in low-rise jeans and a *corset*;
• A "powerful witch" who can't find her ass with both hands, let alone do some ass-kicking consistent with her alleged professional qualifications;
• Assistant Abbie;
• Jennie, Irving, Irving's family and Andy replaced by The Void;
• A total Poochie the Dog character who was so very transparently written into the show because it was unacceptably short on ass-kicking, handsome white men of Anglo-Saxon extraction;
• Two "catty", fighting women who can't work together because they vie for a guy's attention and loyalty, instead of joining forces and turning Moloch into Cream-of-Moloch soup;

 

I had a bad feeling when I saw the promo posters for this season. A boilerplate symmetrical power shot of 5 characters, with Abbie in a sidekick position and Crane at the center, composed and shot as if he is Bruce Willis. Just... idiotic beyond description. A piece of hamfisted, obvious patriarchal masculinity propaganda, directed at a presumed audience with subzero IQ. Just the posters made me angry, and they make perfect sense now. The show is now well in line with them.

 

Demonic pregnancy? A succubus? Next week: Henry causes all women in town to develop a compulsion to serve as footstools to the men.

Edited November 15, 2014 by cyan

[saber5055]

 

the übersuit in charge of the show last year was fired.

The heck. This show was a hot commodity last year. This year its ratings are tanking and fans are jumping the sinking ship like rats. Go figure.

[phoenics]

The heck. This show was a hot commodity last year. This year its ratings are tanking and fans are jumping the sinking ship like rats. Go figure.

Well - they need to FIRE the guy who replaced him (Goffman, yes?) and bring back the uber suit. NOW.

[kimberella]

Guys, here's the thing. According to Tumblr, the übersuit in charge of the show last year was fired. Based on what we are seeing, the replacement is a sexist, racist idiot who obviously has a problem with...

Did they say, who that übersuit was? I want to send him flowers.

 

The shift from a balanced focus between the Witnesses to only focus on Crane's drama happened mid-season 1 and it coincided with Goffman's sudden appearance in the media. He might have been part of the team from the beginning, I don't know that, but there's a clear moment, when he took over and he was ubiquitous. He has always been very clear about his intentions to sideline Abbie, in favor of the Cranewrecks.

[blixie]

Yeah Goffman was there last year, I think they are referring to Kevin O'Reilly who developed the Intentional Diversity initiative, and oversaw development of Sleepy Hollow/Brooklyn NIne Nine/The Mindy Project/New Girl, all of which were diversely casted and critically praised. He was fired last May.

 

But the rest of those shows have actually stayed good and or improved since last season, I think the main *creative* players of SH are still there: Orci/Kurtzman/Olin/Goffman were all there last year. There may have been some writing staff turnover, but it's basically the same group so while I'm sure losing O'Reilly was a blow in the sense that the guy who came up with the idea of marketing diversity is gone, I still mostly blame the Producers and writers of the show. This clusterfuck  of stubbornly sticking with CFD is all on them.

[MissAlmond]

Yes, it's probably Kevin Reilly they're speaking of; it was known he loved Sleepy Hollow.  After Reilly left, Mark Goffman was everywhere.  Unlike others, I believed every word he said about SH Season 2, which is why I mentally started to wean myself from the show.  I knew where Goffman was headed.  It's all just so sad. 

[Indi]

Kevin O'Reilly was a FOX übersuit, but he wasn't in charge of the show. FOX cannot be blamed this time. In the latest convention, the producers/writers surprisingly admitted that they wanted to focus on backstories, which usually means the Cranes, and the subject of family, but only the Cranes, while FOX wanted the show focused on both leads. It seems the producers won and this is the result.

The showrunners are more or less the same than last year, but Goffman took over the writing room mid-season last year. He is the writer in charge and he is also a producer, which effectively makes the show his story.

[savinggrace]

I think the perceived drop in diversity is more on offshoot of the poor decisions to focus on the Crane family and have Irving arrested and therefore separated from the main plot. For the most part the main cast is still the same with the notable addition of Hawley. I'm not sure the staff deliberately sought to reduce diversity so much as made bad plot decisions that had the unintentional effect of sidelining characters of color. Of course it's possible the plot decisions were made specifically with race in mind but I think it's more likely somebody really really likes Katia Winter and John Noble who have been the biggest beneficiaries this season in increased screen time.

 

On top of that I don't think they seem to know what to do with the female characters outside of Abbie. Abbie is the only female character written with any nuance. Katrina, Jenny and now Reyes are either written poorly or underwritten. They seem averse to putting Jenny in the same room with Katrina.

[MissAlmond]

From what I remember, the producers/writers of SH laid out their long range plan and the show was green-lit so Goffman is  hanging on to that story.  The problem, IMO, is that the characters themselves aren't following the gameplan (smart writers understand this happens at times) and instead of Goffman going with them, he's trying to beat the charaters into submission.  Goffman wants the SH he signed up for.  But I have a feeling the producers/writers don't want to go where the characters are leading.  Orci and Kutzman are well aware of the feedback they got from Spock/Uhura, I'm sure they don't have the stomach to go down that path with fandom again.  And to me sure, there are fans out there who love everything about Season 2.  I'm simply not one of them but it's Goffman's show and he can write for whatever part of fandom he wants.  But Mark, I don't believe those Live 7++ are due to people clearing their schedule for perfect time to watch SH.  I think it's more that they're watching late because SH is like homework and thank goodness for fast forward. 

 

Anyway, I want to thank the posters on this board for listening to me.  I really didn't plan to post this much, I just signed up to get things off my chest.  It's made it easier for me to let this show go which is sad because I loved it so before.  But I'll always have Season 1. 

[cynic]

The showrunners are more or less the same than last year, but Goffman took over the writing room mid-season last year. He is the writer in charge and he is also a producer, which effectively makes the show his story.

I saw an interview with Goffman from sometime in the summer of 2013. He talked about being asked to come on the show after the pilot was already done. IMDB has him with a writing credit for episode 2, but not for any of the other earliest episodes (but who knows how accurate that is). Of course, the order in which episodes are aired, isn't necessarily the order they were written.

Goffman taking over the writers room mid-season does make perfect sense to me, since that's about when my interest started to wane. And the pilot is still my favorite and he had absolutely nothing to do with that one!

[savinggrace]

I actually sarted DVRing the show during the latter half of the 1st season so the decline didn't just start this season IMO. The show just wasn't as dark and gothic as I thought it was going to be. I still think it has some entertainment value so I'll hang on to the bitter end.

[fantique]

On top of that I don't think they seem to know what to do with the female characters outside of Abbie. Abbie is the only female character written with any nuance. Katrina, Jenny and now Reyes are either written poorly or underwritten. They seem averse to putting Jenny in the same room with Katrina.

This intrigues me because you're right! Why do they seem to go out of their way to keep them from being in the same frame? Aside from the voting episode which was obvious why Jenny couldn't be there for that mess to happen. Strange because Katia and Lyndie get along well and are roommates, that could have helped...alas!

[savinggrace]

This intrigues me because you're right! Why do they seem to go out of their way to keep them from being in the same frame? Aside from the voting episode which was obvious why Jenny couldn't be there for that mess to happen. Strange because Katia and Lyndie get along well and are roommates, that could have helped...alas!

 

 

The writers seem to have tunnel vision with Katrina. They have already charted a desired course for her and they alter other characters' stories and personalities to accommodate Katrina's story. They make Crane act irrationally. They sideline Jenny to keep Abbie from having a vocal ally when in the presence of Katrina. They'd rather re-write and eliminate better characters than do so with Katrina who ironically --more than any other character - needs to be revamped or eliminated.