S06.E13: Unforgiven

[Guest]

Sam starts to have flashbacks to a case he worked on with Samuel before he reconnected with Dean. Sam receives a mysterious text with coordinates to a small town, so the brothers decide to investigate. Dean is surprised when the townspeople start telling him some of the things Sam did while he lived there.

 

 

[DittyDotDot]

First of all, the screen says "NOW", but the location card says "one year ago." Make up your mind people! I'll save you guys my whole rant about how I hate previouslies and think they're a waste of screen time, but I think they should've skipped the previouslies and used the opening "NOW" sequence of Sam and Grampy from a year ago as the "THEN" sequence. Right, I know, enough said.

 

I have so many questions I wanted answered about Soulless Sam and Grampy Campbell, but I don't feel this episode addressed any of them. I wanted to know how Grampy and Sam found each other, in the first place? How'd they decide to team up and how'd they get the rest of the crew together? I feel like this episode showed us more of what we'd already seen, but Soulless Sam was hunting with Grampy Campbell rather than Dean. Plus--this will be a big surprise to most of you, so you may want to sit down--I don't really enjoy Grampy Campbell much, so if he's to be on my screen I'd like it to be necessary. Like maybe him dying a horrible gruesome death. And then, there's Spiderman and his lady love who I want to enjoy, but don't know that I care all that much in the end.

 

I do rather love Sam getting a glimpse of the last year and I love how Dean keeps trying to stop him from scratching that itch but also is trying to support and help him at the same time. There's some good character work in the current time frame, I just wish the flashbacks were something I wanted to know rather than something I'd already seen.

[GirlyGeek]

This is a take it or leave it ep for me, but I do like the Dean and Sam moments: Sam wanting to remember and make things right, and Dean trying to be supportive but trying to not let Sam destroy himself in the process.

I cannot get over how awkward one line was, though. Sam to Dean, after answering the phone call from the sheriffs wife: "She says its no big deal. But I can tell she's in deep trouble." That line was so awkward and out of place, whether from delivery or because that's not how Sam talks... Probably both. Weird!

There's one other time that comes to mind where there was a line delivered that was so off putting... It was Ellen in AHBL: "Ash called me, panic in his voice". I dunno, both times they sound like bad fanfic, lol

I digress... ;)

[Dobian]

One Question: Why does Sam come back from Hell and is mentally and psychologically destroyed if his memories come back, but Dean comes back from Hell with all his memories down there and he just has some angst and the need to spend more time at the bar?

[DittyDotDot]

Awww, that's cute, trying to find logic and reason on a show that has none! ;)

I think they were trying to say that it was because Sam was down there longer than Dean, but they kinda screwed the pooch on that by making time in Hell waaay longer than on earth. Four years is still too long to be tortured and have no real lasting effects; four months would be too, IMO. I like to think they learned their lesson from how poorly they handled Dean's Hell time and tried to make it have lasing effects this time...but I also worry I might be giving the show too much credit.

[catrox14]

2 hours ago, Dobian said:

One Question: Why does Sam come back from Hell and is mentally and psychologically destroyed if his memories come back, but Dean comes back from Hell with all his memories down there and he just has some angst and the need to spend more time at the bar?

The show had no interest in exploring Dean's hell time with any kind of extended lens because they needed to tell Sam's demon blood story and I guess they just couldn't manage both.

[DittyDotDot]

I don't know that it was lack of interest, myself, but I think it was just they didn't think it through before they did it. I think they thought saying Dean was tortured for 40 years would make more of impact on the viewers and threw it out there as a sort of shock value, but failed to think what that would actually mean to have a person walking and talking and hunting things after that 40 years of torture.

I just think they realized far too late they weren't equipped to tell this sort of story within the format of the show at that time. Not the first time they jumped in without thinking things through, nor is it the last

Spoiler

::cough:: Demon Dean ::cough::

but, I wouldn't say they had no interest in it, just didn't know how to do it differently at the time.

[Dobian]

Or it could be just the writers' way of saying, Dean's The Man! (Been in Hell forty years?  Nothing that a tall cold one can't fix...you've earned it!)

Edited May 6, 2016 by Dobian

[DittyDotDot]

Well, Dean is pretty awesome, so... ;)

[catrox14]

17 minutes ago, Dobian said:

Or it could be just the writers' way of saying, Dean's The Man! (Been in Hell forty years?  Nothing that a tall cold one can't fix...you've earned it!)

Sure Dean was awesome but that I'm pretty sure they just really had no interest in that story. But hey if that's what you took from it. Cool. It's not what I took from it. YMMV

[AwesomO4000]

6 hours ago, catrox14 said:

The show had no interest in exploring Dean's hell time with any kind of extended lens because they needed to tell Sam's demon blood story and I guess they just couldn't manage both.

But they didn't really focus on Sam's demon blood story arc per se either, in my opinion anyway. That Sam was addicted to demon blood wasn't even revealed until 16 episodes in after we - or at least I - had almost forgotten/given up/etc. on even figuring out what it was to start with. Sam had given up whatever it was for potentially 8 episodes or so at least - "Metamorphosis" to "Chris Angel" - and then it was another 4 episodes before they even revealed what it was Sam had even "started" again. And then that "big reveal" was a scene in an episode already full of a bunch of other stuff and big reveals that had nothing to do with Sam's blood addiction.

In my opinion, back then the problem was that the writers had gotten enamored with the idea of Dean and Sam conflict and having them at opposing viewpoints, and as long as it got to that big fight at the end of the season that was what they were really interested in, even if getting there had character repercussions that they weren't willing to properly alleviate or deal with. And I think Dean's hell repercussions were one of them. As long as they had something that Sam could "pick at" - Dean's supposed "weakness" - they got their building conflict they needed for the opposing sides and angst and that was the main thing that they were interested in during that season...

Which is why I much preferred the difference of opinion the writers explored in this episode. The opposing sides made more sense to me. We had Dean who had fought hard and given up a lot - being Death for a day we saw was not easy for him - to get Sam's soul back, and that soul / Sam's sanity was protected only by a wall Dean understandably didn't want picked at. And we had Sam who understandably wanted to know what his soulless self did while he was gone and whether there were things he needed to and could fix. We had a balanced set up with several episodes devoted to Dean figuring out Sam was wrong, no one believing him, and a good portion of an episode devoted to Dean's sacrifice of getting Sam's soul back, setting up Dean's understandable side of the argument - and even Dean's conflict with wanting to support Sam while at the same time not wanting the wall to be weakened. And now we had Sam's side of the equation in this episode with him wanting to know and what that could cost, but him understandably uncomfortable with not knowing what damage his soulless self might have done.

I generally think that this episode while maybe not as satisfying an episode as some might be in terms of it being kind of a bummer, was still one where I appreciated this understandable conflict and genuinely felt for both Sam and Dean and understood both of their sides. So I appreciated that thought put into this episode while maybe still finding it kind of a bummer. Oh and I also agree with DittyDotDot way back when - grandpa Samuel sucks.


I know that there are sometimes complaints about Sera as showrunner, but one thing I liked about her seasons - that this episode was a good example of - was that with a few exceptions, the differences of opinion between Sam and Dean were generally organic ones that didn't come from manufactured conflict or involve things that didn't make sense personality-wise (for me). Even with the conflict concerning

Spoiler

Amy

- contrived as it was - the two sides of the disagreement made sense in terms of Sam and Dean's personalities and I could sympathize with both viewpoints... and it wasn't drawn out. Their argument lasted one episode and ended with a better understanding between the brothers.

Edited May 7, 2016 by AwesomO4000

[Hanahope]

So of course Sam would want to fix things.  But this story shows just how dangerous Soulless Sam was. 

And now there are more spider creatures out there.

i get the bit of why was Dean ok after 40 years (4 months) of torture, both getting and receiving, but Sam would not be and needed more protection. Sam's soul was in hell longer, over a year, so over 100 years.  Plus he was with Lucifer and Michael, two real big players, bigger than Alastair.  And Sam is different than Dean, Dean is tougher, he could probably handle more than Sam. 

[bettername2come]

On 5/6/2016 at 2:17 PM, Dobian said:

One Question: Why does Sam come back from Hell and is mentally and psychologically destroyed if his memories come back, but Dean comes back from Hell with all his memories down there and he just has some angst and the need to spend more time at the bar?

If I'm giving the show credit, I would say it's a) length of time b) Lucifer's cage being the supermax of hell and therefore worse c) end game - Alastair needed a functional Dean to shed blood in hell whereas Lucifer was just torturing Sam for kicks and didn't need him to have any kind of mental stability. If I'm not giving the show credit, they just plain forgot and it's just their typical darts game of who they're going to treat better this week/season/ever.

Lesson number one of Supernatural: Don't bang Sam Winchester. Damn if I wouldn't forget that lesson the instant he smiled at me.

Spider creatures look creepy cool. Soulless Sam sucked.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Guess SoullessSam's arm was fine since he managed to punch out that deputy pretty good.  Just noticed this time through: looked like they were stopped at a crossroads.  I thought that was interesting.  

I like the Mel Gibson possession theory.  It fits.   I think they got Harrison Ford too about the same time.

Sure, Sam - use the PuppyEye Power! on Dean - and throw in 'missing girls' to really manipulate him.  ;)

I liked how the boys actually squatted in an abandoned house on this case instead of staying in a motel.  

SoullessSam is seriously a jerk.  But "loud and athletic"?  Damn.

It just occurred to me that in 2017, Sam would be the right age for the original female arachne.  Seems to me Grampy could have put up more of an objection to SS's method of 'saving' the first batch of victims.  He just stood there and let it happen.  So whatever happened to the rest of the arachne: the other males that the first female made and the females that the deputy spider made?   They let 'em go?  Sick other hunters on them?  Way to let a plot point drop there, show.  

[DittyDotDot]

7 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

So whatever happened to the rest of the arachne: the other males that the first female made and the females that the deputy spider made?   They let 'em go?  Sick other hunters on them?  Way to let a plot point drop there, show.  

Well, Spiderman said they all skeedaddled, and that was a year back, so I'm not sure there was anything to do about it right then. They just have to wait until one surfaces just like any other case.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 8/19/2017 at 6:58 AM, DittyDotDot said:

Well, Spiderman said they all skeedaddled, and that was a year back, so I'm not sure there was anything to do about it right then. They just have to wait until one surfaces just like any other case.

I don't remember now - was there some kind of incubation or dormancy period?  I mean, seems like that many disappearances within a small distance would set off alarm bells somewhere along the way.

[DittyDotDot]

2 hours ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

I don't remember now - was there some kind of incubation or dormancy period?  I mean, seems like that many disappearances within a small distance would set off alarm bells somewhere along the way.

There was a "egg sack" stage, but they had been abducted and reported missing earlier. So the alarm bells were already raised. That's why Sam and Samuel were in town in the first place and what Sam and Dean were also investigating.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

14 minutes ago, DittyDotDot said:

There was a "egg sack" stage, but they had been abducted and reported missing earlier. So the alarm bells were already raised. That's why Sam and Samuel were in town in the first place and what Sam and Dean were also investigating.

Not this case.  What I meant was: if all those other arachne skedaddled, I'd think there'd be mass disappearances to make the news in other locales wherever the other spidermen/women went, either to feed or breed.  I don't recall Sam and Dean ever catching the alpha spiderperson?  (Psst: here's a hint guys: his name is Peter Parker! ;) )  In which case, it should have caught the attention of either the Winchesters or some other hunter/s.  

Taking the rest to the brand spanking new Season 6 All Eps thread so I don't have to use spoiler tags!  Bwhahahahaha!

[DittyDotDot]

5 minutes ago, RulerofallIsurvey said:

Not this case.  What I meant was: if all those other arachne skedaddled, I'd think there'd be mass disappearances to make the news in other locales wherever the other spidermen/women went, either to feed or breed.

We're not talking about half the town, but like five or six missing persons, as I recall? Maybe they just don't breed all that often and/or eat humans--or need to eat them very often?

All I know is SpiderRoy said the Spiderlady was there to breed, not feed. She bit him and the other abducted men which turned them into monsters. After they "hatched" they all skedaddled and hid for months. I don't know if that means they skedaddled together or not, but if they keep to themselves that could be how they manage to stay off most hunters' radar. The turning period didn't seem too long because Roy was abducted in the park and Sam and Samuel immediately followed his GPS to the warehouse where he was already a monster when Sam shot him--that's why he survived the bullet to the head and the fire.

I don't know if SpiderRoy was actually "breeding" with the women he abducted in the current time frame or if he simply killed them to get Sam's attention. Either way, I don't think there was much Sam and Dean could do about them right then; they were probably already hatched and gone to parts unknown. They had to wait until one acts up to do something about it.

[catrox14]

Ifinally realized why I never remember this episode. Fuck spiders or any variation thereof

Just big fat nopes on top of nopes for me. With apologies @AwesomO4000, I know  they eat other bugs and serve their purpose, but fuck spiders to Hell. Just cannot watch this one at all.

Edited August 23, 2017 by catrox14

[RulerofallIsurvey]

18 hours ago, catrox14 said:

Ifinally realized why I never remember this episode. Fuck spiders or any variation thereof

Just big fat nopes on top of nopes for me. With apologies @AwesomO4000, I know  they eat other bugs and serve their purpose, but fuck spiders to Hell. Just cannot watch this one at all.

Lol!  Spiders don't bother me.  I usually try to catch them and put them outside if I find one inside (not with my bare hands though!).  Roaches are my big NOPE.  

[Iju]

"Wow, Sam, I gotta say, souless or not, I gotta say I'm pretty impressed."

that one one made me think on not only would sam be bothered on what his souless self did to other people's lives, but also what he did to him. like sam wouldn't feel grossed out at all that his unsouled self had all those "activities" with those women? i would want to wash myself twice a day for a month.

well this episode wasn't....pleasant. just how many spiders do they have to deal with after this since the others escaped? this will always be in the back of my head...D:

[The Companion]

On 8/23/2017 at 2:41 PM, catrox14 said:

Ifinally realized why I never remember this episode. Fuck spiders or any variation thereof

Just big fat nopes on top of nopes for me. With apologies @AwesomO4000, I know  they eat other bugs and serve their purpose, but fuck spiders to Hell. Just cannot watch this one at all.

I had a run in with a large spider as a kid and still feel all those legs crawling up my ankle as I yell for help. *shudder*. Yeah, fuck spiders. 

On 4/26/2018 at 3:25 PM, Iju said:

"Wow, Sam, I gotta say, souless or not, I gotta say I'm pretty impressed."

that one one made me think on not only would sam be bothered on what his souless self did to other people's lives, but also what he did to him. like sam wouldn't feel grossed out at all that his unsouled self had all those "activities" with those women? i would want to wash myself twice a day for a month.

well this episode wasn't....pleasant. just how many spiders do they have to deal with after this since the others escaped? this will always be in the back of my head...D:

Between this and Swap Meat (and arguably when he was on demon blood), AND all the STIs he has been given without sex, you gotta feel for the guy. 

I liked that we got a direct comparison with Souless Sam including his remorse. I loved the relationship between Sam and Dean and trying to find a balance.

The monster? Probably Meh for non arachnophobic people. Important because it establishes the fact that Sam is truly endangered by retreading old ground and it shows the contrast of soulful Sam with souless Sam, but not a great monster story. 

I did find it funny that they sort of inadvertently ended up with the backwards message of: Soulless Sam was awful and bad but also next time make sure you kill the victims in a more horrific way. After all, despite his efforts to kill them, he didn't stop several monsters from heading out to breed. Whoops. 

I am assuming, btw, that he was telling the truth about creating more. After all, every other monster we have seen has been doing the same. 

[Katy M]

2 hours ago, The Companion said:

I did find it funny that they sort of inadvertently ended up with the backwards message of: Soulless Sam was awful and bad but also next time make sure you kill the victims in a more horrific way. After all, despite his efforts to kill them, he didn't stop several monsters from heading out to breed. Whoops. 

Yeah, Sam was cold, but whether they were aware or not, all those people had been turned.  I guess they could have tried to teach them to be good monsters, but realistically speaking, Sam's main sin (besides all the sex) was not doing a better job killing them.  And, Samuel went along with everything he did.  So, he really has nothing to talk about. 

[lorbeer]

 

On 5/6/2016 at 11:35 PM, catrox14 said:

Sure Dean was awesome but that I'm pretty sure they just really had no interest in that story. But hey if that's what you took from it. Cool. It's not what I took from it. YMMV

I have always assumed that Sam's hell trauma was due to being locked up with Lucifer and not because he was 'simply' in hell. Frankly it never even occured to me to compare it to Dean's time on hell. 😅

And yaas, I'm rewatching the series, so hello to anybody who reads the thread on 2023:)

[MagnusHex]

I like this one. Sam and Dean having a more normal and amiable relationship again, and I like that Sam returned to his more compassionate (albeit compassion born out of guilt) self from early season 1 before he became more of a dick. Wonder how long that'll last though. Ah well. Sam's newfound quest for redemption seems to have potential, but it could also drag the series' pacing down before the season finale wrap things up.

The main plot is also great, lots of emotional moments there, and not just a pure villain you could hate this time. I don't usually mind these types of ambiguous antagonists to spice things up every now and then.

Creature effects leave much to be desired, but that's the usual budget with CW/Supernatural by now, so I will probably point this out less often in the future.

4/5

[FlickChick]

Welcome back @MagnusHex. I thought maybe you gave up on watching or posting about the episodes. I always enjoy reading your posts.

This was not one of my favorites. The whole Soulless Sam screws every woman in sight was just yuk for me. Add to that-spiders! Double yuk. However, Sam's memories about working with Gramps were important. All in all a forgettable episode for me. But I'm glad you enjoyed it more than I.

[MagnusHex]

21 hours ago, FlickChick said:

This was not one of my favorites. The whole Soulless Sam screws every woman in sight was just yuk for me.

That's true. It kinda seemed unnecessary to throw that in now that you mentioned it. lol

 

21 hours ago, FlickChick said:

I thought maybe you gave up on watching or posting about the episodes.

Nah, I got distracted playing Persona 5... just like how I'm distracted now playing Persona 4 Golden. It's gonna be a while before I could get my regular viewing schedule back on again with all these distractions. lmao

But thanks. I'm glad to hear that my posts are appreciated. 😄

Edited June 13, 2023 by MagnusHex

[MAK]

23 hours ago, MagnusHex said:

On 6/13/2023 at 1:09 AM, FlickChick said:

This was not one of my favorites. The whole Soulless Sam screws every woman in sight was just yuk for me.

That's true. It kinda seemed unnecessary to throw that in now that you mentioned it. lol

 

I always thought that was brought up to show that Soulless Sam could only feel physical sensations (pain, pleasure). He didn't know what exactly was wrong with him, but he chased "feelings." 

I don't think he even experienced anger or other negative or destructive emotions. 

[FlickChick]

5 hours ago, MAK said:

I always thought that was brought up to show that Soulless Sam could only feel physical sensations (pain, pleasure). He didn't know what exactly was wrong with him, but he chased "feelings." 

I don't think he even experienced anger or other negative or destructive emotions. 

I don't know, it was hard to say. The writing was all over the board. The only consistent traits that I saw were that he was only interested in himself, and his hunt/mission. Anything or anyone that got in his way was ignored or dealt with. Remember the girl in the finale that was "helping" him and it turned out that she was once a hostage of the demon he wanted to kill, so he just shot her so the demon didn't have any leverage? That's cold!!! Also, he was willing to kill Bobby to keep his soul out because he was concerned about his own well-being. Those are pretty negative and destructive emotions to me.

[ahrtee]

51 minutes ago, FlickChick said:

I don't know, it was hard to say. The writing was all over the board. The only consistent traits that I saw were that he was only interested in himself, and his hunt/mission. Anything or anyone that got in his way was ignored or dealt with. Remember the girl in the finale that was "helping" him and it turned out that she was once a hostage of the demon he wanted to kill, so he just shot her so the demon didn't have any leverage? That's cold!!! Also, he was willing to kill Bobby to keep his soul out because he was concerned about his own well-being. Those are pretty negative and destructive emotions to me.

That wasn't necessarily emotions; that was SS being coldly pragmatic.  He didn't do anything out of anger, or any emotion at all; just what he believed needed to be done to achieve his goal (whether his goal was self-preservation or hunting doesn't really matter in this context.  In his mind, it was logical.)  

My problem with the entire episode was that they were showing Sam swinging so wildly between cold SS and emo, self-flagellating Sam with his soul back.  That Sam was acting entirely on emotions, not listening to Dean or any logic (even to wait to find out what was going on before jumping headfirst into the middle--really, just what he always accuses Dean of doing.)  I kept wanting to smack him, especially when he promised Dean to wait and then immediately took off to "make things right" in his own mind.  And winds up needing to be rescued, and endangering himself and others just because he was so sure he "had" to do things his way and that Dean was wrong.  That was putting his own need to make amends before actually doing things the right way to finish the hunt, and IMO puts him back to season 2 Sam who always thought he knew the *only* right way.  

Maybe that was deliberate on the part of the writers--to compare SS with "ensouled" Sam, and that the new/old Sam was overcompensating for his soulless self, but it was so OTT that it just annoyed me.  YMMV.  

[MAK]

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That wasn't necessarily emotions; that was SS being coldly pragmatic.  He didn't do anything out of anger, or any emotion at all; just what he believed needed to be done to achieve his goal (whether his goal was self-preservation or hunting doesn't really matter in this context.  In his mind, it was logical.) 

Exactly. He went after Bobby because that was a path to his survival, not because he was angry. 

5 hours ago, ahrtee said:

That was putting his own need to make amends before actually doing things the right way to finish the hunt, and IMO puts him back to season 2 Sam who always thought he knew the *only* right way. 

This seemed to always be Sam's issue. He was either kind of arrogant (in the early seasons), where he was smarter than Dean and knew better, or (in the later seasons) he was always trying to prove that he was good and/or worthy -- of forgiveness, of salvation, of Heaven,  of love, etc.