S29.E03: Actions vs. Accusations

[rozen]

Well, until there's such a thing as bigot litmus paper, you generally have to depend on 2nd hand information. It's a little mind-boggling that minorities and genderqueer individuals were supposed to cross their fingers and hope that widely available information was not true until Rocker, what? Told them to their face (and on national tv) that he hates anyone who's not a white American male? Why is his right to play his game any higher than their right to protect theirs? 

 

This is ignoring the fact that  said bigotry seemed to be completely ancillary to the idea that A) he was the mastermind of that tribe B) he was an asshole/poor sportsman during challenges.

 

Running Natalie up and down the street because she was could possibly maybe have been wrong about Rocker (but wasn't) while calling him out seems a bit rich. This is Survivor. The whole game is built on people lying about you, and usually not to your face. Screaming that someone's a douche out in the open is just about the nicest thing you could do for your enemy, as it makes them aware of that big bullseye on their back. And it obviously still didn't communicate since he sat there like a dumb dumb while his tribe gave him the exact same vibes, just not as overtly.

 

Oh, now poor little Baylor wants the big mean boys to stop picking on the little blonde ladeeyz. Should have bucked up and stuck with your all girl alliance, then you wouldn't  have a numbers problem, now would you?  I hope they both get voted out, as should happen every season of every reality tv show ever until these 'guy's girls' figure out that all-male alliances are never going to carry them to the end. Ever.

Edited October 11, 2014 by rozen

[Wings]

No, they cuss and bird flip in front of cameras, but it gets edited out. Just like ALL people do on reality shows. We'd all be dumbfounded if we saw what was left on the cutting room floor, trust me. Rudy, season one, was one helluva salty dog. :)

 

 

OT  I just watched season 1 yesterday. The only thing Rudy said was "pain in the ass."  At the reunion when asked if he would be friends with anyone from the show he said, no!  Funny guy.   He said he spends his time with his military buddies who don't swear.  All the swearing bothered him.  

[BarneySays]

Maybe because calling a team "the straights" makes no sense as in there were lots of teams that were straight.  If everyone on that season of the Race was gay except one straight team then sure there should have been a team called "the straights" but that wasn't the case.

Wouldn't calling a team "the Blacks" be disconcerting?  It's the same thing- reducing the other to their otherness. 

 

Josh basically complimented himself while he called Keith something that means backward and dumb. People from the South get just as sick of others assuming they're stupid and bigoted, as gay people get hearing negative stereotypes about themselves.

I agree.  There was a smugness to his comment, as well.  And I would bet good money, he's not even a NYer.  Living in NYC does not make you a New Yorker.  This guy has midwest suburban transplant written all over him. 

[Wings]

When we talk in our real life we use verbal shorthand.  We do not justify the phrases we use because our friends know us.  Terms like "the gays" or Josh mentioning the chasm between he and Keith are not prejudice, they are merely stating the facts without the need to justify our exact wording.  I understand what the twins and Josh mean.  We all use generalities at times and don't realize it because the people we are talking to are not looking to pick our thoughts and words apart.  

[lilly6]

Josh is from Michigan.

[Guest]

Wouldn't calling a team "the Blacks" be disconcerting? It's the same thing- reducing the other to their otherness.

But the shows cast that way so the twins using the labels is irreverent but in my opinion no big deal. We all know people get cast because they have a hook-- either it's their sexual orientation or boobs or profession or past or race or IQ.

Even Josh hardly speaks without it being about his own gayness, though that's probably producer prodded and due to editing. "I'm a gay man with a hick buddy!" "I'm a gay man with a bigot in my alliance!" "I'm a gay man who doesn't want to be 'one of the girls'!" "I'm an outdoorsy gay man!" "I know how Broadway shows work!"

[LanceM]

 

Oh, now poor little Baylor wants the big mean boys to stop picking on the little blonde ladeeyz. Should have bucked up and stuck with your all girl alliance, then you wouldn't  have a numbers problem, now would you?  I hope they both get voted out, as should happen every season of every reality tv show ever until these 'guy's girls' figure out that all-male alliances are never going to carry them to the end. Ever.

 

Yes she would. There were 5 men, 4 women at the beginning of the game. The women were always behind in the numbers. There only hope was getting a man to flip and none wanted to do that.

[truthaboutluv]

Yeah the whole girl alliance depended on Josh being with them which Nadiaya just assumed he was because he was "as good as a girl anyway." Except not so much and Baylor, who was close to Josh (or at least thought she was), once he told her he wasn't voting for Dale and instead for Nadiya, realized the women's alliance wouldn't work anyway which is probably why she figured why bother wasting  a vote.

[ratgirlagogo]

 

Living in NYC does not make you a New Yorker.

I don't know, I'd argue that it pretty much does if you prefer New York to the place you were born.  Most New Yorkers are from somewhere else and in fact one of the things Rocker didn't like about Queens back in 1999 was the large amount of "foreigners" that lived there. 

[KimberStormer]

Yeah, don't forget that in this season especially, a woman's alliance is a bad plan, thanks to the last-minute medical exclusion of a pair of women.  Both tribes have more dudes than ladies. 

[PhilMarlowe2]

I don't really see how Natalie's display is worthy of "you go, girl" props. If there was any indication she was educated vis-à-vis the subject about which she was screaming, I could see how it would be admirable for her to take a stand against xenophobia. But, absent any degree of substantive information on the Sports Illustrated article, she was really just being a dumbass loudmouth.

 

Seriously, preach. I found Jeremy and Natalie's whole display pretty stomach churning. First of all, Jeremy, John Rocker wasn't responsible for your wife's ouster, he did try to protect her, and it was her own stupidity that got her voted out. For Jeremy to angrily blame John and then create this whole cockamamie story out of thin air that John is the leader of the tribe (which he really isn't - if anyone is a leader, it's Josh) is just horseshit. So, then, Jeremy decides it's not bad enough that he's totally a sore loser, but he then petulantly uses John's past as a smear campaign against him just because Val got sent home? Seriously? So, you're okay enough with John's bigotry to work with him within the game when it works to your advantage, but the second you're all butt hurt because the other team dared to vote off your precious, game-inept wife (whom you apparently have to "protect"), now suddenly you're all indignant over John's past? Dislike John because he said something bigoted - don't dislike John because you're wrongfully blaming him for your wife's demise in the game and then pretend like it's his racism that bothers you. And Natalie just ran with that ball - what the hell does she know or care about it? I don't like John Rocker, but I also don't like a witch hunt - and that was a witch hunt. I was really hoping they didn't vote out John because I didn't want to see Jeremy and Natalie get what they wanted. Utter fools.

 

Also, Survivor? It's 2014. The Real World premiered, like, a gazillion years ago. It is in no way shocking, novel or uncanny that a straight man from the South would get along with a gay guy from the city. The late 90's/early 00's called and they want their reality TV story-lines back.

Edited October 12, 2014 by PhilMarlowe2

[lunastartron]

Well, until there's such a thing as bigot litmus paper, you generally have to depend on 2nd hand information. It's a little mind-boggling that minorities and genderqueer individuals were supposed to cross their fingers and hope that widely available information was not true until Rocker, what? Told them to their face (and on national tv) that he hates anyone who's not a white American male? Why is his right to play his game any higher than their right to protect theirs? 

 

This is ignoring the fact that  said bigotry seemed to be completely ancillary to the idea that A) he was the mastermind of that tribe B) he was an asshole/poor sportsman during challenges.

 

Running Natalie up and down the street because she was could possibly maybe have been wrong about Rocker (but wasn't) while calling him out seems a bit rich. This is Survivor. The whole game is built on people lying about you, and usually not to your face. Screaming that someone's a douche out in the open is just about the nicest thing you could do for your enemy, as it makes them aware of that big bullseye on their back. And it obviously still didn't communicate since he sat there like a dumb dumb while his tribe gave him the exact same vibes, just not as overtly.

 

Oh, now poor little Baylor wants the big mean boys to stop picking on the little blonde ladeeyz. Should have bucked up and stuck with your all girl alliance, then you wouldn't  have a numbers problem, now would you?  I hope they both get voted out, as should happen every season of every reality tv show ever until these 'guy's girls' figure out that all-male alliances are never going to carry them to the end. Ever.

 

Expecting Natalie to be able to articulate why she's calling someone a racist with some supporting specifics doesn't seem "rich" to me; it seems like a pretty low threshold for intellectual responsibility. "Bigot," "racist," and "homophobe" are all appropriate terminology in certain contexts, but, like "evil," they all hinge on actions and behavior. People have called President Obama racist; others have applied the adjective to his ideological opponents. Some think affirmative action combats racism; others view it as racist itself. Natalie's outburst has no meaning other than her ability to repeat phrases she hears. If you don't know what you're taking a stand against, your stand is bankrupt of any meaning or morality. Hypothetically, someone could have said Natalie hates LGBT men because they'd seen her use of "the gays" shorthand on TAR, and it would have the same value her shouting if there were no examples to back it up.

 

How do minorities have to rely on second-hand data vis-à-vis allegations of bigotry? In terms of publicly prominent people (which John is), there's usually a sourced/documented report, a recording (Michael Fraser, Mel Gibson), or someone's own language and voting record (any politicians). In a personal context, if I hear someone is a bigot/racist, I usually say, "what did (s)he do/say?" That's indeed indirect but substantively different from hearing "he's racist" and parroting it.

[bren70]

Just re-watched the episode.  John does call her a slut.  It's right after she calls him a bad sportsman.  He says "Right back at ya, slut".  Not saying either one of them was right, wrong, or whatever, just clarifying b/c someone asked and I happened to be watching the ep as I'm reading this board.

Edited October 13, 2014 by bren70

[ratgirlagogo]

 

(Michael Fraser, Mel Gibson)

Who's Michael Fraser?

[Way Wes Jr]

Who's Michael Fraser?

 

I'm going to guess the OP meant Michael Richards, who played Kramer on Seinfeld.

[lunastartron]

I'm going to guess the OP meant Michael Richards, who played Kramer on Seinfeld.

Thank you for the clarification and correction! I could have sworn that "Fraser" was the actor's surname. Perhaps I just subliminally conflated my '90s NBC sitcoms or something (Frasier/Seinfeld).

[BK1978]

This is more of a general comment on the season as a whole rather than about this specific episode.  I just wanted to say that I am finding the season to be very boring thus far.  I have not really been able to retain who is who besides Val, Josh, John Rocker, the Twins, Dale and Baylor.  Shoot I can't even remember what Val's husband name is despite the fact that he is a major player thus far.  I think if this season was more interesting I probably would be able to retain their names better. 

[susannot]

Also bored. I snored thru last episode and then failed to watch it  in On Demand.  Don't get why I'm so bored but I think it's the cast.

[Dobian]

Just catching up with Survivor now, watched this one last night.  Yeah Rocker's an idiot.  That's what immunity idols are for, dude, you have to play them.  At least he realized his mistake as he walked out, but too late to save himself.  I watch baseball and remember him from that scandal years ago.  I noticed several examples of bad stuff going on with this guy during his short time on the show.  He doesn't seem like a bad guy, but he definitely has some bad tendencies.  Natalie is just obnoxious.  I was glad when her sister was the first one booted and I hope that loudmouth follows her in one of these shows coming up I haven't watched yet.  It annoys me when Survivor and Amazing Race recycle these same contestants over and over anyway.  These two were really that compelling that you had to bring them back again on one of these shows instead of giving us someone new?  Really?