Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

feverfew · November 18, 2018

On 11/11/2018 at 9:54 PM, Smad said:

Only if you think the complete absence of a believable story arc or incompetent writing or inconsistent character development is a good thing. I don't ever see GRRM messing the Sansa story up so completely.

While I love your optimism, the fact of the matter is that George RR Martin, like most of the readers and viewers of this universe, is much, much more interested in the "spunky anti-establishment tomboy" than the girl who adhere to fairytale tropes. In this fan's eye Martin already messed up: Sansa stopped being a main character in his books after A Storm of Swords, and the so-called "Vale-arc"? Non-existent save for a proto-chapter from the ~~maybe, perhaps, if he can be bothered~~ upcoming book Winds of Winter. Sansa hasn't been seen since A Feast for Crows (3 pitiful chapters in all of that), published in 2005, so most talk about her development is pure speculation. Also, potential spoiler for WoW:

Spoiler

she sounds like she's buying what Littlefinger is selling;

which if that's true, makes her dumber than a box of hair, and also not what I've been waiting 13 years for. And I say that as a massive (disapppointed) book-Sansa fan.

As for "incompetent writing and inconsistent characters" I present to you: A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons.

GraceK · November 20, 2018

It’s really a testament to how beloved the Starks are that Sansa is so consistently defended. The majority of podcasts I’ve listened too, and articles Ive read and discussions with other fans regarding her season 6 and season 7 arc seems to to fall on this desire to not want to believe that Sansa would ever betray or harm her family in any way. She’s a character you are set up to want to root for after her experiences in Kings Landing, and then after her horrific rape by Ramsey in season 5 its almost seen as a betrayal of feminism to question her actions in anyway. After all she’s gone through, all we want is for Sansa Stark to reunite with her family and retake Winterfell. All through season 6, with every questionable and bitchy action, there were fans there to excuse every thing she did by either calling Jon stupid or say that she was actually a political genius. 🙄 Rather than entertain the possibility that her trauma has possibly made her entirely self serving and embrace the notion that she may be slightly dark, fans are so obsessed with the idea of “ Stark honor and loyalty “ that they refuse to acknowledge that Sansa might have her own flaws.

Stella · November 20, 2018

50 minutes ago, GraceK said:

Rather than entertain the possibility that her trauma has possibly made her entirely self serving and embrace the notion that she may be slightly dark, fans are so obsessed with the idea of “ Stark honor and loyalty “ that they refuse to acknowledge that Sansa might have her own flaws.

Most Sansa fans and most ASOIF fans acknowledge that all characters in the series have flaws. Thinking otherwise is missing a fundamental premise of GRRM's beliefs.

But in Season 7 Sansa never tried to undermine Jon. Bryan Cogman (defender of the ASIOAF lore for the show) (writer & director) talks at length in the video about Sansa and her relationship with Jon.

Around the 7 minute point:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyHHg-V6FVk&t=66s

It's funny to me that you think "Stark honor and loyalty" is a blind spot making Stark fans unable to see any flaws or think Starks won't do something dark or do any game playing. I am firmly in the camp that believes the surviving Starks are playing the game, including Jon Snow.

So sure, Sansa has some flaws and is very internal and she and Jon have some challenges. But she wants him home. Several times she is talking about how she misses him and can't wait for his return. She mentions how happy he will be to see Arya.

Sansa also immediately was trying to give up her title of Lady of Winterfell to Bran upon his return. She specifically says "you are Lord of Winterfell now". She understands perfectly the Westerosi hierarchy. She does not encourage the fickle men who suggest they may have made the wrong choice with Jon as their king. She spends most of the season preparing Winterfell for Winter, as Jon would want. She is doing her due diligence with the food stores etc.

She does want Jon to hear her. That is not a flaw IMO. She is the Lady of Winterfell. The North has a rather open forum of discussion. The setup of the great room is very much referencing the parliamentary style of early Britain. Jon sits on level equal with his people (no thrones) and he listens to his men/women. Sansa as Lady of Winterfell is a very important person in the North. Should they have had private convos beforehand? Yes. Jon should have told her his plans. But this is a small thing in context. They are learning to navigate their relationship. But Jon did leave the North to her when he departed. I think they left on good terms. They both certainly looked sad when Jon turned to look at her when he was leaving and they shared a wave goodbye gesture.

Also:

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

that Sansa is so consistently defended

not really here on this forum. She has few advocates but I've seen way more revilers than defenders.

GrailKing · November 20, 2018

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

It’s really a testament to how beloved the Starks are that Sansa is so consistently defended. The majority of podcasts I’ve listened too, and articles Ive read and discussions with other fans regarding her season 6 and season 7 arc seems to to fall on this desire to not want to believe that Sansa would ever betray or harm her family in any way. She’s a character you are set up to want to root for after her experiences in Kings Landing, and then after her horrific rape by Ramsey in season 5 its almost seen as a betrayal of feminism to question her actions in anyway. After all she’s gone through, all we want is for Sansa Stark to reunite with her family and retake Winterfell. All through season 6, with every questionable and bitchy action, there were fans there to excuse every thing she did by either calling Jon stupid or say that she was actually a political genius. 🙄 Rather than entertain the possibility that her trauma has possibly made her entirely self serving and embrace the notion that she may be slightly dark, fans are so obsessed with the idea of “ Stark honor and loyalty “ that they refuse to acknowledge that Sansa might have her own flaws.

I know I said there is a chance Sansa could go against Jon, if she perceives his action could endanger her, Winterfell , the family and the north, I also stated that her trust issues will be a major hurdle, not just for her but others too.

Stark honor, is an invented thing, all people need to do is read Bran's chapters or watch some history and lore videos.

But rooting for her, or Arya , Jon and Bran to succeed is natural, and I have yet to see a majority of people thinking Sansa doesn't have flaws, same with Arya, Jon and Bran.

GrailKing · November 20, 2018

On 11/18/2018 at 11:01 AM, feverfew said:

While I love your optimism, the fact of the matter is that George RR Martin, like most of the readers and viewers of this universe, is much, much more interested in the "spunky anti-establishment tomboy" than the girl who adhere to fairytale tropes. In this fan's eye Martin already messed up: Sansa stopped being a main character in his books after A Storm of Swords, and the so-called "Vale-arc"? Non-existent save for a proto-chapter from the ~~maybe, perhaps, if he can be bothered~~ upcoming book Winds of Winter. Sansa hasn't been seen since A Feast for Crows (3 pitiful chapters in all of that), published in 2005, so most talk about her development is pure speculation. Also, potential spoiler for WoW:

Reveal hidden contents

she sounds like she's buying what Littlefinger is selling;

which if that's true, makes her dumber than a box of hair, and also not what I've been waiting 13 years for. And I say that as a massive (disapppointed) book-Sansa fan.

As for "incompetent writing and inconsistent characters" I present to you: A Feast for Crows and A Dance with Dragons.

They removed her chapters from the last book, because she's having a change in arc, and didn't want to confuse readers.

In those excerpts, not sure she's buying LF tea, but she is conflicted. Sansa is aware of what's going around her, and Cobray possibly could be turned seems to be doing things against LF's plans, because Robin is actually thriving under her; she's aware of Myranda Royce being Jealous over HTH, HTH is a jerk, she's introduced to 3 knights, one is setup to kidnap her ( we should see this in S8 ) we just won't know anymore unless we get the next book.

Edited November 20, 2018 by GrailKing

Smad · November 21, 2018

On 20.11.2018 at 5:01 AM, GraceK said:

All through season 6, with every questionable and bitchy action, there were fans there to excuse every thing she did by either calling Jon stupid or say that she was actually a political genius. 🙄 Rather than entertain the possibility that her trauma has possibly made her entirely self serving and embrace the notion that she may be slightly dark, fans are so obsessed with the idea of “ Stark honor and loyalty “ that they refuse to acknowledge that Sansa might have her own flaws.

Why does it have to be one or the other? People can admit a character is fundamentally changed (even if it's in a bad way) by what happened to them yet still root for them? After everything Sansa has been through it would be totally unrealistic if she wasn't changed, including having a little dark side of her own. A major problem I have is the reasons why people so vehemently hate on Sansa. The whole dilemma of the last 2 Seasons of 'Sansa will betray Jon' were down entirely due to two things. The astoundingly bad writing (mostly for 'gotcha' moments) and things that were said by the actors and creators outside the show to hype up the Seasons.

It was all the hype for all of S7 and every episode people were discussing it. The show itself used Arya to hammer home that point despite the fact that Sansa herself didn't do anything to betray Jon. The opposite was actually true. But they had Arya constantly suspecting her sister while said sister did nothing to betray Jon, making Arya look ridiculous as a result. Such stupid 'writing'.

And the disaster that was S6. Do I believe Sansa would have major trust issues regarding men even if said men are her family? Duh. But the reason so many attributed all this evil to Sansa was because of the giant plot holes in the setup. We didn't even know at the time if the letter was written to Littlefinger (it was later confirmed I believe?). We didn't even know if she got a response from him. But people just assume she did and was willing to let all of Jon's men and him die because Sansa = evil. Why automatically assume the worst when there are holes in the story big enough to drive a truck through? I certainly couldn't hate Sansa for not telling Jon about the Vale army because I had no idea about what actually took place. And these plot holes are only there because the writers weren't thinking beyond the 'gotcha' of the LOTR style Vale army appearance. They certainly weren't thinking about how the characters would come across to the viewers. Because that's apparently not important.

Edited November 21, 2018 by Smad

slf · November 26, 2018

On 11/19/2018 at 11:32 PM, Stella said:

not really here on this forum. She has few advocates but I've seen way more revilers than defenders.

This is true pretty much throughout the entire fandom, except among the more respectable ASOIAF/GoT commenters on tumblr (like racefortheironthrone, nobodysuspectsthebutterfly, joannalannister, etc.). People have always hated Sansa, ever since the first book when she was just a little kid who had the gall to believe in the fairytales her parents raised her on.

Smad · November 26, 2018

13 hours ago, slf said:

This is true pretty much throughout the entire fandom, except among the more respectable ASOIAF/GoT commenters on tumblr (like racefortheironthrone, nobodysuspectsthebutterfly, joannalannister, etc.). People have always hated Sansa, ever since the first book when she was just a little kid who had the gall to believe in the fairytales her parents raised her on.

I love the Fandomentals. They love the books and hate the show but they still have to do their job. Their reviews and retrospectives are hilarious. And they rename every character to make it clear that they have little, if anything, in common with the book characters they are based on. I loved listening to their Sansa book talk and was amazed by how much they screwed her character up (haven't read the books yet myself). And then these women tearing apart D&D for the BS they often say, I love it. Their podcasts are also funny.

But it's funny to hate a little girl and then just keep holding on to said hate forever (all the while loving the truly vile characters). But then I'm also an Olly apologist (Jon's fault the kid stabbed him) on my good days. So what do I know...

GraceK · November 26, 2018

I don’t hate Sansa. I liked Show Sansa a lot more than book Sansa actually because they softened her and made her much more likable. I appreciate that they left out her betrayal of Ned in the show, and I liked her and Tyrion’s growing friendship and that she was much nicer to him. Both her and Tyrion I think are better in the show than in the books but that’s a personal opinion. My favorite moment of hers is when she’s considers shoving Joffrey off that bridge 😂 and I love how she low key trolls Ramsey when their married. She’s awesome.

What I don’t like is her actions in season 6 and 7 and that’s what I am referring to. It was bad writing and instead of fans just saying that D&D dropped the ball and went for a big Knights of Rohan moment at expense of character, Sansa stans instead denigrate Jon and attribute military genius to Sansa and say she was completely in the right to mistrust her brother, lie to him, and trust Littlefinger. Most of Jon’s men died. Jon almost died. Rewatching season 6 and it’s really hard not be annoyed at how she acts. She’s unable to get any of the Northern houses on her side by using her name, it’s Davos who convinces Lyanna Mormont to fight for them. Then she has the nerve to ask Jon if he’s the right guy to be giving advice. Jon gets the wildings on their side and she says it’s not enough. He asks her point blank if she has more ideas and she won’t tell him about the Vale. She spends alot of time telling Jon how they don’t have enough men and how his advisers suck but really doesn’t offer anything of value herself except don’t fall into Ramsey’s trap. The one thing she does have , AN ARMY, she won’t mention.

It bothers me a lot, because I have been rooting for Sansa and Jon ( as characters I’m not a Jonsa shipper) for 6 seasons and I don’t like that she’s lying to her brother and keeping secrets and letting Littlefinger keep talking shit about him.

People are more mad at Jon for being a “toxic male “ and not asking Sansa for advice in a war council. I mean come on. This drives me crazy.

She even apologizes in the finale for not telling him and they have a sweet moment together, and then in season 7 it’s back to Littlefinger whispering in her ear all season.

Edited November 26, 2018 by GraceK

GraceK · November 26, 2018

Someone had a very interesting theory about Sansas season 6 actions that basically, she used Jon and his men as Bait for Ramsey, to lure him into that position so she can then strike with the Knights of the Vale and finish him off. That scenario, while dark, is more interesting to me because that at least makes sense!! A Sansa who is so traumatized by the events in her marriage that she is willing to sacrifice her brothers for revenge and power is pretty cool. It’s just a theory I’m not saying that’s what her motivation was so don’t jump down my throat please.

Edited November 26, 2018 by GraceK

tangerine95 · November 26, 2018

31 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I don’t hate Sansa. I liked Show Sansa a lot more than book Sansa actually because they softened her and made her much more likable. I appreciate that they left out her betrayal of Ned in the show, and I liked her and Tyrion’s growing friendship and that she was much nicer to him. Both her and Tyrion I think are better in the show than in the books but that’s a personal opinion. My favorite moment of hers is when she’s considers shoving Joffrey off that bridge 😂 and I love how she low key trolls Ramsey when their married. She’s awesome.

What I don’t like is her actions in season 6 and 7 and that’s what I am referring to. It was bad writing and instead of fans just saying that D&D dropped the ball and went for a big Knights of Rohan moment at expense of character, Sansa stans instead denigrate Jon and attribute military genius to Sansa and say she was completely in the right to mistrust her brother, lie to him, and trust Littlefinger. Most of Jon’s men died. Jon almost died. Rewatching season 6 and it’s really hard not be annoyed at how she acts. She’s unable to get any of the Northern houses on her side by using her name, it’s Davos who convinces Lyanna Mormont to fight for them. Then she has the nerve to ask Jon if he’s the right guy to be giving advice. Jon gets the wildings on their side and she says it’s not enough. He asks her point blank if she has more ideas and she won’t tell him about the Vale. She spends alot of time telling Jon how they don’t have enough men and how his advisers suck but really doesn’t offer anything of value herself except don’t fall into Ramsey’s trap. The one thing she does have , AN ARMY, she won’t mention.

It bothers me a lot, because I have been rooting for Sansa and Jon ( as characters I’m not a Jonsa shipper) for 6 seasons and I don’t like that she’s lying to her brother and keeping secrets and letting Littlefinger keep talking shit about him.

People are more mad at Jon for being a “toxic male “ and not asking Sansa for advice in a war council. I mean come on. This drives me crazy.

She even apologizes in the finale for not telling him and they have a sweet moment together, and then in season 7 it’s back to Littlefinger whispering in her ear all season.

It's pretty much the same for me.I liked her and had sympathy for her since season 1 and defended her against a lot of hate she used to get.My issues with Sansa are mostly season 6 and 7 and her weird behavior with Jon.I also wish they actually made her the political genius the show tells us she became cause I'm not seeing it tbh.I still don't really hate her tho,just get annoyed at times.

Smad · November 26, 2018

57 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I don’t hate Sansa. I liked Show Sansa a lot more than book Sansa actually because they softened her and made her much more likable. I appreciate that they left out her betrayal of Ned in the show, and I liked her and Tyrion’s growing friendship and that she was much nicer to him. Both her and Tyrion I think are better in the show than in the books but that’s a personal opinion. My favorite moment of hers is when she’s considers shoving Joffrey off that bridge 😂 and I love how she low key trolls Ramsey when their married. She’s awesome.

The best Sansa in the show is the one written by GRRM. BoB comes to mind. Again I myself still have to read the books but from all accounts book!Sansa is smarter, more empathetic, astute, intuitive and most importantly PROACTIVE. Sure she doesn't have much agency while being a political prisoner but show!Sansa never does anything. Give me the Sansa that doesn't kneel when forced to marry Tyrion any day. Of course the show made a Saint out of Tyrion and the only reason that character isn't completely boring is the actor. Or the Sansa who knows exactly what everyone wants from her, like the Tyrells, instead of show!Sansa being reverted back to early S1 and swooning over Loras. Blech. And lets not even get started on S4/5, especially the latter one.

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

People are more mad at Jon for being a “toxic male “ and not asking Sansa for advice in a war council. I mean come on. This drives me crazy.

Why? It's only LOGICAL to ask her. If you want to win the battle, 'know thy enemy'. And who on Jon's side knows Ramsey better than Sansa? A good battle commander would be grilling her to get to know his opponent. It might drive you crazy, but intelligent commanders do such basic recon.

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

Rewatching season 6 and it’s really hard not be annoyed at how she acts. She’s unable to get any of the Northern houses on her side by using her name, it’s Davos who convinces Lyanna Mormont to fight for them. Then she has the nerve to ask Jon if he’s the right guy to be giving advice. Jon gets the wildings on their side and she says it’s not enough. He asks her point blank if she has more ideas and she won’t tell him about the Vale. She spends alot of time telling Jon how they don’t have enough men and how his advisers suck but really doesn’t offer anything of value herself except don’t fall into Ramsey’s trap. The one thing she does have , AN ARMY, she won’t mention.

Sansa has to be at least 3 if not 4 different characters in all of S6, all for plot. So which one of those 'Sansas' are you blaming? Is it the one from the beginning who showed agency and spoke her mind, the one who roused Jon to take back Winterfell? Is it the one that quietly sits in the corner and then gets annoyed when being ignored? Is it the one who can't do anything right and can't rouse anyone to do anything? Or is the one who supports her brother, apologizes and even smiles at him for becoming KitN? So which one of these multiple Sansas in S6 do you have a problem with? You can't pick them all, as they are not the same character. You have to pick one of these.

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

He asks her point blank if she has more ideas and she won’t tell him about the Vale.

Yeah and Brienne asked a similar question. Why not tell Jon. Sansa has no answer for these questions because the freaking writers don't. Why people even bother trying to make sense of any of the last few Seasons (S5-7 especially) is frankly a mystery to me. It's a show with dragons and a plot that drags the characters wherever it needs them. It's not about the characters or character drama anymore. Characters are nothing more than 1 expression plot devices.

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

She even apologizes in the finale for not telling him and they have a sweet moment together, and then in season 7 it’s back to Littlefinger whispering in her ear all season.

Of course LF whispers, it's all he does all Season, when he isn't glued to wallspot. In short all he does is NONSENSE. And she looks bored by it every single time. The only reason why she starts bouncing things off of him again, is because her sister is a complete psycho and her brother is in Lala Land and her half-brother/cousin is off getting laid. Maybe if her sister acted more like a human being, she would have someone to bond and talk with. But since I never saw her trust LF again (kinda hard to tell since actors are only allowed to have 1 expression) the only thing that has bugged me is that he still wasn't dead. This BS to keep the character on the show for no reason even though he could have been taken care of Seasons ago. I don't blame Sansa for that. She isn't writing the show.

glowbug · November 26, 2018

Sansa has always been one of my least favorite characters but I don’t hate her or wish her ill will. I much prefer her book counterpart because she’s far better written, IMO. Show Sansa wasn’t horribly written until they decided to give her Jeyne Poole’s storyline. That’s when things really went off the track for her because it made her later actions nonsensical. The way they shoved her into the Northern storyline just didn’t work for me. There were ways to bring her North that could have worked but the one they chose was not it.

Additionally, I don’t think the writers and therefore Sophie Turner, herself, quite know what they want from the character. That’s why the audience can derive such different interpretations from her behavior. Too often her motives are ambiguous or vague. On more than one occasion the majority of the audience interprets her actions one way, TPTB give interviews explaining them another way, and then Turner gives an interview explaining them a third way. When the audience, the actress, and the writers/directors/producers aren’t on the same page, that’s poor writing. There isn’t this same sort of debate about the book character because we can read her thoughts and her actions make sense. People dislike her still but at least they can understand her. The differences between fans and detractors lie mostly in how forgivable/culpable she is for her actions, and how bad her actions really are.

GraceK · November 26, 2018

4 minutes ago, glowbug said:

Sansa has always been one of my least favorite characters but I don’t hate her or wish her ill will. I much prefer her book counterpart because she’s far better written, IMO. Show Sansa wasn’t horribly written until they decided to give her Jeyne Poole’s storyline. That’s when things really went off the track for her because it made her later actions nonsensical. The way they shoved her into the Northern storyline just didn’t work for me. There were ways to bring her North that could have worked but the one they chose was not it.

Additionally, I don’t think the writers and therefore Sophie Turner, herself, quite know what they want from the character. That’s why the audience can derive such different interpretations from her behavior. Too often her motives are ambiguous or vague. On more than one occasion the majority of the audience interprets her actions one way, TPTB give interviews explaining them another way, and then Turner gives an interview explaining them a third way. When the audience, the actress, and the writers/directors/producers aren’t on the same page, that’s poor writing. There isn’t this same sort of debate about the book character because we can read her thoughts and her actions make sense. People dislike her still but at least they can understand her. The differences between fans and detractors lie mostly in how forgivable/culpable she is for her actions, and how bad her actions really are.

You said it a lot a better than I did☺️ This basically sums up how I feel.

Smad · November 26, 2018

1 hour ago, glowbug said:

Additionally, I don’t think the writers and therefore Sophie Turner, herself, quite know what they want from the character. That’s why the audience can derive such different interpretations from her behavior. Too often her motives are ambiguous or vague. On more than one occasion the majority of the audience interprets her actions one way, TPTB give interviews explaining them another way, and then Turner gives an interview explaining them a third way. When the audience, the actress, and the writers/directors/producers aren’t on the same page, that’s poor writing.

Or they are stirring up trouble to get people talking by being contradictory. It sure as hell worked for the past 2 Seasons which was all about 'Sansa will betray Jon'. It was all the rage in every episode discussion. Sure the crappy story with the giant plot holes in S6 made it look like that would be the case. But nothing in S7 in the writing for Sansa suggested that despite it being hyped by D&D/Turner etc.. Stuff like this is exactly why I don't follow interviews, inside episodes or even DVD commentaries (unless it's actors just having fun). Because those don't matter. Never have, never will. All that matters is what's on screen. That's the only canon that matters, nothing else should be discussed when one voices their opinion about the story. Of course it's a vicious circle because if the writing becomes so bad that the canon doesn't make much sense, then people turn to outside information to make sense of what's going on.

18 minutes ago, GraceK said:

I didn’t agree with her behavior at all in season 6, I thought the whole conflict with Arya at WF was dumb as hell in season 7 and made them both look like asses. That’s my opinion.

I didn't agree with her or Jon or anyone involved in that whole mess in S6. It was a camp of idiots and mutliple-personality-disorder inflicted individuals. I like S7 Sansa because it's the most consistent she's been since the very start of the show. Of course one could disagree and argue in regards to her behavior with LF. But then opinions on that vary. Even in her whole plotline with her weirdo/psycho siblings she was consistent. She was trying to reach out, one kept talking about beautiful rapes and the other played Hannibal Lector. Yes the conflict was dumb but since it came entirely from Arya right from the start and Sansa never did actually do any of what Arya accused her of, there's no blame to fall on Sansa IMO. And if the writers decide to use the #no!communication trope...well the viewers are going to be left with a giant WTF IS GOING ON.

SeanC · December 6, 2018

Following on this discussion from the speculation thread that gradually wended away from speculation about the future to the content of the previous season:

Quote

You still have not explained why supporting Jon would make her lose their support in the future. Since you're argument was that she was not supporting Jon because she wanted to claim the support of the Northern lords for herself in the future. A lack of family loyalty is a very attractive quality for these Northern Lords?

Because she wants them to know she agrees with them, I guess?

Since the Northern lords were openly petitioning her and saying she'd be better at the job, yeah, presumably they were expecting her to agree with them on that. I don't write the show, and it's my well-known stance that the show's writing is frequently poor, so I'm not asserting any of this is well-told, but Arya's dialogue on the subject:

Quote

Arya: They were insulting Jon, and you sat there and listened.

Sansa: I listened to their complaints, which is my responsibility as Lady of Winterfell.

Arya: Their opinions are important to you?

Sansa: Glover has 500 men, Royce has 2,000. Offend them and Jon loses his army.

Arya: Not if they lose their heads first.

Sansa: Winterfell didn't just fall into our hands. We took it back, and the Mormonts and the Hornwoods and the wildings and the Vale. All of us, working together. Now, I'm sure cutting off heads is very satisfying, but that's not the way you get people to work together.

Arya: And if Jon doesn't come back, you'll need their support... so you can work together, to give you what you really want.

Sansa: How can you even think such a horrible thing?

Arya: You're thinking it right now. You don't want to be, but the thought just won't go away.

The idea here would seem to be that Sansa, as Arya herself states, doesn't want to think about this (which would fit with things like her later conversation with Littlefinger where she argues with him about how Jon not coming back and being incommunicado is endangering their political situation), but at the same time she feels like she'd be better at the job and is tempted by it. None of that is her actively planning a coup -- which, again, if she was doing that, then the whole plot of Littlefinger doing a bunch of stuff in subsequent episodes to get her to mount a coup makes no sense.

Edited December 6, 2018 by SeanC

anamika · December 6, 2018

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Because she wants them to know she agrees with them, I guess?

So she agrees with Glover and Royce that it would be better if she was Queen rather than Jon because she wants their support in the future despite Jon currently being King and you don't see a problem with that? This idea that Sansa needs to pander to the whims of the Northern lords for their support is what Sansa says to justify her actions - does anyone support this? Does the show support this when they write Lyanna Mormont as scolding Glover into silence - he's still there with his men right? Does the show support this when Robb threatens to hang Umber as an oathbreaker because he is planning on leaving with his men? Why is it so easy to openly speak treason now and get called 'Kind' for it?

It would have been very easy for so called super diplomat Sansa to explain why what Jon was doing was important for the North - instead of Jon is doing what Jon thinks is best - and get their support for the Starks that way. Instead of throwing Jon under the bus to get her support - which Arya observes. Wherein Sansa looks uncomfortable about what she did. Which was what the scene was about.

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

The idea here would seem to be that Sansa, as Arya herself states, doesn't want to think about this (which would fit with things like her later conversation with Littlefinger where she argues with him about how Jon not coming back and being incommunicado is endangering their political situation), but at the same time she feels like she'd be better at the job and is tempted by it. None of that is her actively planning a coup -- which, again, if she was doing that, then the whole plot of Littlefinger doing a bunch of stuff in subsequent episodes to get her to mount a coup makes no sense.

Does not want to think about what? Sansa is thinking about replacing Jon all the time! Ever since LF put that idea into her head at the end of season 6. That was literally her plot last season. Does she actively pursue the position of QITN? Of course not. No where did I or the script say that Sansa was mounting a coup. But she wants to and is tempted to do so - several times. She does entertain, at the very end, the idea of deposing Jon and executing Arya - until she very quickly comes to her senses after LF oversteps. She does not cross that line in the sand and do it, but are we supposed to appreciate her for that?

She makes it very hard for newly made King Jon by never giving him her support, undermining him and encouraging treasonous talk against him by thanking the lords - making sure she has their support even if it means Jon's job is now all that much more harder when he comes back. Because she and LF have been nurturing that resentment against Jon from the Lords - instead of snipping it in the bud. Like Robb did early on.

Quote

Sansa: Winterfell didn't just fall into our hands. We took it back, and the Mormonts and the Hornwoods and the wildings and the Vale. All of us, working together. Now, I'm sure cutting off heads is very satisfying, but that's not the way you get people to work together.

Arya: And if Jon doesn't come back, you'll need their support... so you can work together, to give you what you really want.

Sansa: How can you even think such a horrible thing?

Arya: You're thinking it right now. You don't want to be, but the thought just won't go away.

You are implying that the script is specifically talking about the part where Sansa needs their support in case Jon dies. I disagree. I don't think this - “Arya is right. She knows it. We know it. Sansa knows it.” is about justifying Sansa's statement that Sansa is just innocently getting the Lord's support for herself to prepare for a future where Jon dies. Arya is actually hinting here that taking support away from Jon and for herself is about Sansa getting what she's really wanted all this time. And the script is saying that Arya is right. We could even extrapolate from that line of dialogue that Arya thinks that Sansa wants Jon to die, so that she could become queen - and the script is saying she is right.

Why is the script making a big deal about everyone knowing that Arya is right if it's something as innocuous as Sansa just wanting to secure the future in case Jon dies? Would not Sansa be right in that case as you keep explaining.

Arya is right. She knows it. We know it. Sansa knows it - this is basically saying that Arya got it right when she accuses Sansa of wanting to be queen as opposed to Jon and Arya deduced that correctly when she observes Sansa in the great hall with the Lords.

Edited December 6, 2018 by anamika

Smad · December 6, 2018

1 hour ago, anamika said:

This idea that Sansa needs to pander to the whims of the Northern lords for their support is what Sansa says to justify her actions - does anyone support this?

She doesn't need to justify them. Forgotten S6 already? Almost the whole North disregarded the Starks when it came to ousting the Boltons. Some of them even sided with the Boltons. The North changes their mind 10 times a day. In the first 2 episodes they agreed with everything either Sansa or Jon said, the ultimate winner only seeming to be determined by who has the last word. For now the North is united, barely, and they are all wind vanes or whatever Sansa called them. What other justification is needed? Sansa didn't offer to become Queen, the little children (Lords) were complaining about daddy (King) not being home so she placated them. What else can you do with children?

1 hour ago, anamika said:

It would have been very easy for so called super diplomat Sansa to explain why what Jon was doing was important for the North - instead of Jon is doing what Jon thinks is best - and get their support for the Starks that way. Instead of throwing Jon under the bus to get her support - which Arya observes. Wherein Sansa looks uncomfortable about what she did. Which was what the scene was about.

How could she possibly explain it? I must have missed the episodes were Sansa saw the AotD. Or a WW. She trusts that Jon knows what he's talking about in regards to that and that it's the best for the North that he went south. But how on Earth do you expect her to explain that which she hasn't seen herself? That's a ridiculous demand of the character quite frankly, she isn't Bran. She can't greensee. The only people who could explain are not in Winterfell. She needs to keep the Lords there and that means listening to their complaints because that's the only thing she can do diplomatically. She can't make them understand the danger they are facing because she has no grasp of it herself.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Does not want to think about what? Sansa is thinking about replacing Jon all the time! Ever since LF put that idea into her head at the end of season 6. That was literally her plot last season. Does she actively pursue the position of QITN? Of course not. No where did I or the script say that Sansa was mounting a coup. But she wants to and is tempted to do so - several times. She does entertain, at the very end, the idea of deposing Jon and executing Arya - until she very quickly comes to her senses after LF oversteps. She does not cross that line in the sand and do it, but are we supposed to appreciate her for that?

Is that your opinion based on anything that was actually in the show? Or really just based on your personal opinion that Sansa can do nothing right (aka Sansa hate). Or based on BS interviews before and during the Season shaping your perception? And the scripts just confirmed your stance? Because I for one saw nothing on my screen to support this. But then I only pay attention to what's on screen because frankly that's all that counts. If I just look at the end of S6, when Sansa smiles as Jon is proclaimed KitN and then sees LF's scheming smile and thinks 'oh crap he won't take that well'...people like you instead see it as Sansa thinking 'crap LF was right, there goes my Queen title'. But then I didn't read/listen to interviews so that was what I saw on the screen. If they meant to portray something different, then they should have executed it differently. 2 whole Seasons of interviews and comments by actors and writers hyping one thing, people falling for it and the discussion was dominated by 'Sansa will betray Jon' every episode. Everything she did was supposedly proof of that, people read evil intentions into everything she did. But she never betrayed Jon (Battle of the Bastards does not count due to giant plot holes in the story). In fact Jon betrayed her and the North when he pissed their independence away for no reason (Dany had stopped asking him to bend the knee). But his action is defended endlessly and hailed as 'the right thing to do'. Doesn't make any sense to me.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

She makes it very hard for newly made King Jon by never giving him her support, undermining him and encouraging treasonous talk against him by thanking the lords - making sure she has their support even if it means Jon's job is now all that much more harder when he comes back. Because she and LF have been nurturing that resentment against Jon from the Lords - instead of snipping it in the bud. Like Robb did early on.

She has a freaking right to speak her mind just as every other Lord/Lady of the North. Are all the Lords undermining Jon when they speak up? Was little Lyanna Mormont, his little champion, also undermining him when she voiced her opinion? Sansa is the goddamn Lady of Winterfell. She has a right to speak up. Or are you suggesting she should know her place as a the little woman and just sit in the corner and have no opinion on anything? But you know what would have helped these early disagreements? If Jon for once had a brain and actually did what pretty much every King and Lord in Westeros does...form a council of advisors. And inform Sansa of the decisions of said council (if she isn't on it). His failure to do so lead to these open disagreements. It's called cause and effect. It's downright sexist to expect Sansa to keep her mouth shut because...Jon is related to her? LF may have been nurturing dissent among the Lords (I wouldn't know because we weren't shown that from what I remember), Sansa never did that.

1 hour ago, anamika said:

You are implying that the script is specifically talking about the part where Sansa needs their support in case Jon dies. I disagree. I don't think this - “Arya is right. She knows it. We know it. Sansa knows it.” is about justifying Sansa's statement that Sansa is just innocently getting the Lord's support for herself to prepare for a future where Jon dies. Arya is actually hinting here that taking support away from Jon and for herself is about Sansa getting what she's really wanted all this time. And the script is saying that Arya is right. We could even extrapolate from that line of dialogue that Arya thinks that Sansa wants Jon to die, so that she could become queen - and the script is saying she is right.

Why is the script making a big deal about everyone knowing that Arya is right if it's something as innocuous as Sansa just wanting to secure the future in case Jon dies? Would not Sansa be right in that case as you keep explaining.

Arya is right. She knows it. We know it. Sansa knows it - this is basically saying that Arya got it right when she accuses Sansa of wanting to be queen as opposed to Jon and Arya deduced that correctly when she observes Sansa in the great hall with the Lords.

It doesn't freaking matter what's in the script. The only thing that counts is what's on screen. Script only shows the intent of the writers. What ends up on screen is all about execution. What a writer intends and what ends up on screen can often be very different. And this has a lot to do with the directors, the actors and last minute changes to scripts. If writers, directors, showrunners etc. want the audience to know something, put it on the screen. If you later have to explain what people were actually supposed to see, you've massively failed at your job. Some things can be vague for the sake of plot (to service a future storyline) but D&D clearly had a specific intend in mind. However they executed it so craptastic that you have one half of the viewers thinking 'Arya varies between utter psycho ()or is she the waif?) and talking nonsense' in regards to Sansa while Sansa is just trying to make the best out of a bad situation. The other half thinks Arya is right about everything and Sansa is the devil. Clear and utter fail in terms of storytelling.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Smad

Katsullivan · December 6, 2018

6 hours ago, Smad said:

How could she possibly explain it? I must have missed the episodes were Sansa saw the AotD. Or a WW. She trusts that Jon knows what he's talking about in regards to that and that it's the best for the North that he went south. But how on Earth do you expect her to explain that which she hasn't seen herself? That's a ridiculous demand of the character quite frankly, she isn't Bran. She can't greensee. The only people who could explain are not in Winterfell. She needs to keep the Lords there and that means listening to their complaints because that's the only thing she can do diplomatically. She can't make them understand the danger they are facing because she has no grasp of it herself.

Then that's on her. The wildlings and the Night's Watch fought for her battle with the Boltons. She could talk to them, try to understand better. She could send a raven to the Wall and ask for some representatives to come to Winterfell and hold conference with the lords to give them some perspective. No one is asking Sansa to write a thesis on the WW, but she has access to resources that she isn't using because the script wants her to know more about storing grains for winter and padding armor for the cold than seasoned knights and lords, and be smarter than everyone in the room even though her political acumen is limited to "trust the guy that wants to bone me".

merrick715 · December 6, 2018

7 hours ago, anamika said:

You are implying that the script is specifically talking about the part where Sansa needs their support in case Jon dies. I disagree. I don't think this - “Arya is right. She knows it. We know it. Sansa knows it.” is about justifying Sansa's statement that Sansa is just innocently getting the Lord's support for herself to prepare for a future where Jon dies. Arya is actually hinting here that taking support away from Jon and for herself is about Sansa getting what she's really wanted all this time. And the script is saying that Arya is right. We could even extrapolate from that line of dialogue that Arya thinks that Sansa wants Jon to die, so that she could become queen - and the script is saying she is right.

Why is the script making a big deal about everyone knowing that Arya is right if it's something as innocuous as Sansa just wanting to secure the future in case Jon dies? Would not Sansa be right in that case as you keep explaining.

Where does the shooting script say this? There used to be a site that had the shooting scripts for Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and Angel the series, and it was always interesting to see how the aired episode differed from the shooting script. If I remember correctly, Sansa tells Jon to take Ned and Cat's chambers, after they've retaken Winterfell in season six. Arya takes Sansa staying in their parent's bedroom as more proof of Sansa's supposed upcoming betrayal. It doesn't cross Arya's mind that their parent's bedroom might be one of the few places in Winterfell that don't bring back memories of Ramsay. Neither sister knows who the other one has become. Then there is the fact that one of the first things Sansa says to Bran is that he is the Lord of Winterfell now. That doesn't strike me as behavior that someone would display if their main goal was to bump off their siblings and take their power.

screamin · December 6, 2018

9 hours ago, anamika said:

Does not want to think about what? Sansa is thinking about replacing Jon all the time! Ever since LF put that idea into her head at the end of season 6. That was literally her plot last season.

If we're taking Arya's word about what Sansa's thinking, then we must also take her word that Sansa does not WANT to be thinking about replacing Jon. The thought has crossed her mind that she could be as good a ruler as Jon - maybe better - if Jon didn't come back. It is an actual possibility that may come to pass. The fact that she puts the thought aside with horror instead of happily building on it as an eventuality shows that Sansa doesn't want to overthrow Jon. The fact that for a moment it was pleasurable to think of herself in charge and to believe she could do a better job at it doesn't change that...anymore than a man who has fleeting pleasurable fantasies about his brother's attractive wife before putting them aside in disgust is actively planning to commit adultery with her.

But Arya doesn't do subtlety. She's on a hair trigger, has unresolved issues of distrust with Sansa, and is only seeing in black and white. The traumas of her past have rendered her paranoid, and if Sansa isn't wholeheartedly with Jon in every thought she's against Jon. She's also overconfident in her powers, and she's letting them lead her to the wrong conclusions that she was already inclined to follow. She doesn't trust Sansa, so if Sansa has a flicker of thought that she'd be better at ruling than Jon, Sansa must be plotting against Jon. This conclusion lets Arya be the active hero championing Jon - which after her life of danger in which she took care of herself AND took revenge on those who'd harmed her family with superhuman effort, is probably a role she yearns for far more than being her sister's idle shadow at Winterfell. She's acute about what role Sansa might fantasize about playing, but she's blind to the role she wants to play herself...and it's a role that would be as treacherous to Jon as the one she accuses Sansa of wanting.

Edited December 6, 2018 by screamin

Smad · December 6, 2018

3 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Then that's on her. The wildlings and the Night's Watch fought for her battle with the Boltons. She could talk to them, try to understand better. She could send a raven to the Wall and ask for some representatives to come to Winterfell and hold conference with the lords to give them some perspective. No one is asking Sansa to write a thesis on the WW, but she has access to resources that she isn't using because the script wants her to know more about storing grains for winter and padding armor for the cold than seasoned knights and lords, and be smarter than everyone in the room even though her political acumen is limited to "trust the guy that wants to bone me".

Keep blaming Sansa for something that's Jon's job. It's kind of tiring. The Wildlings were in WF after the battle and the beginnings of S7. Jon had all the time in the world to make the WW problem more palatable to the Northern Lords so that they understand the threat. He could have had the Wildlings speak about Hardhome. Or here is an idea, if Jon & co. are so invested in convincing people that the AotD is real (like with Cersei), show the Northern Lords some proof. For everyone in the North (including Sansa), the threat of the AotD is not really a thing, hence no one is actually focusing on that. Sure they are gearing up for war, fortifying their strongholds and making weapons/armor but that's just general preparation because a war is coming one way or another. From the North (which they don't really believe) and/or the South.

Colorful Mess · December 6, 2018

Scripts are written from the audience's perspective so I wouldn't trust them. It's clear in S7 that a lot of trickery is going on, that they are also writing to fool the audience into believing things, as illustrated in their commentary AFTER the episode has aired:

Quote

Benioff on S7E7: so much of that scene is about what happens beforehand and building up the tension between Sansa and Arya where you really believe where one will kill the other. It's one of the benefits of working on a show like this where over the years so many beloved characters have been killed and so many characters make decisions you wish they hadn't that you can believe that Sansa might conspire against Arya or that Arya might decide that Sansa has betrayed the family and deserves to die.

Weiss: Knowing that you're aiming at that it really helps in the writing of it is because your only goal in those scenes is to build towards what feels like a real rift between them in a way that makes it extremely fraught when you get into that room with them at the end.

So they're writing to make you think they'll kill each other. However the conversation on this thread is about how "Sansa has betrayed the family and deserves to die," i.e. that Arya was in the right and Sansa was wrong. It's just falling into Sansa hate again. D&D were writing to play both sides and they'll sacrifice character and logic to trick the audience. Don't fall for their b.s.

Edited December 6, 2018 by Colorful Mess

anamika · December 7, 2018

12 hours ago, screamin said:

that Sansa does not WANT to be thinking about replacing Jon. The thought has crossed her mind that she could be as good a ruler as Jon - maybe better - if Jon didn't come back. It is an actual possibility that may come to pass. The fact that she puts the thought aside with horror instead of happily building on it as an eventuality shows that Sansa doesn't want to overthrow Jon. The fact that for a moment it was pleasurable to think of herself in charge and to believe she could do a better job at it doesn't change that...anymore than a man who has fleeting pleasurable fantasies about his brother's attractive wife before putting them aside in disgust is actively planning to commit adultery with her.

Yes, what Arya is saying is that Sansa wants to be queen and is thinking about this but does not want to think about it because that's wrong. So Sansa understands that it's wrong - and she fully realizes it at the very end with LF in Jon's office that she had very nearly done what the devil on her shoulder suggested. But all the while from the end of season 6, she is thinking about it and contemplating it. It's like the script saying that Sansa is slightly disappointed that Bran is back - because he would now be Lord of WF, not her. Does she want to be disappointed that a beloved brother is back home? I am sure not. But she is, because she wants to be the person in charge.

And this idea that she should be the one in charge is why she does a lot of the things she does over two seasons - it's not fleeting or momentary. It's ever present over two seasons. Take season 6.

Quote

LF: Will you allow me to say one more thing before I go? Your great-uncle Brynden the Blackfish has gathered what remains of the Tully forces and retaken Riverrun. You might consider seeking him out. The time may come when you need an army loyal to you.

Sansa: I have an army.

LF: Your brother's army. Half-brother.

Next scene:

Quote

Davos: But Jon doesn't have the Stark name.

Sansa: No, but I do. Jon is every bit as much Ned Stark's son as Ramsay is Roose Bolton's. And there are also the Tullys. They're not Northern, but they will back us against the Boltons without question.

Davos: I didn't know the Tullys still had an army.

Sansa: My uncle the Blackfish has reformed it and retaken Riverrun.

Jon: How do you know that?

Sansa: Ramsay received a raven before I escaped Winterfell.

The next we see, Sansa fails in her endeavors to get any Northern house to support the Starks against Ramsay. Then she asks LF for the help of the Vale army - her army - and keeps it from Jon. Sansa assumed she would get the credit and become Queen. The tension between Jon and Sansa is because Sansa thinks she won the BOTB with her army, but that Jon got the credit and became King. The script points to this several times and the actors have commented on Sansa not getting the credit she deserved. This resentment spills out when she argues with Arya:

Quote

Sansa (To Arya) : You should be on your knees thanking me. We're standing in Winterfell again because of me. You didn't win it back, Jon didn't win it back, he lost the Battle of the Bastards. The Knights of the Vale have won the battle and they rode north for me. While you were where? Travelling the world?

And Jon is aware of this. Jon knows what Sansa is doing in the great hall with the lords - he asks that Sansa not undermine him. Jon basically calls Sansa's false praise horse shit because her behavior tells him that words are wind.

Quote

"There is definite tension between them right from the first scene," said Harington. "There are the same problems - she questions his decisions and command; he doesn't listen to her. But as far as where that goes or takes them or how dark it can get, we'll see. It gets past sibling squabbling, it gets into two people power struggling.

image.png.8e4e93b6b4d889e65e8e6f4ddd38d923.png

Arya first detects this desire in Sansa when she observes Sansa presiding over the Lords and how she is tempted by Glover's words - she confronts Sansa about not doing anything when they insulted Jon to get their support for herself. Because she wants to be queen. And the script says that it should be clear to everyone by now, that Arya is right - because it is! We have seen it for two seasons now.

And this then becomes the bone of contention between Sansa and Arya. Arya thinks Sansa and LF are conspiring together because they are always hanging out, Sansa gets advice from him and Arya observes LF talking to Glover and Royce - after which they both want to make Sansa queen. To which suggestion Sansa is not overly resistant.

Arya then finds the letter and accuses Sansa of being a traitor. Was Arya being overzealous here and when she threatens Sansa? Yes. But as per the show, she thinks Sansa is now trying to usurp a most beloved brother. And let's recall - as per the show itself - Sansa very nearly went there - she actually entertains the notion of deposing Jon. And as per Isaac and the deleted scene they shot, she very nearly had Arya executed.

For most of these two seasons, Sansa is not overtly and actively pushing for the QITN position. She just makes it harder for Jon to be the newly minted bastard King by not presenting an united front for house Stark and never supporting Jon in what he does. And LF exploits this to turn people like Glover against Jon. Jon's position is now all the more tenuous when he comes back because of this. And that's the issue. Not that Sansa was planning a secret coup.

And this is just a personal opinion of mine and nothing from the scripts or the show, but for all the constant complaints about Jon not consulting with Sansa before making decisions, Sansa has never ever shared anything with Jon or consulted with him before making a decision. Sansa often makes it clear to Jon that she deserves to be in on the decision making. But she decides to keep very vital strategic information from Jon about the Vale army and lies to him about where she was getting her information from. And Jon has not held it against her or ever referred to it again. Why is it Jon who must always bend and bow and consult with her and do whatever Sansa wishes.

The only thing Jon has asked of her at the end of season 6 was what Ned told Arya in season one - "We need to trust each other. We can't fight a war amongst ourselves. We have so many enemies now". And Sansa then got manipulated by LF, fought with her siblings and took an entire season to realize that - the lone wolf dies while the pack survives. Maybe that's why Sophie got that tattooed. That's the culmination of Sansa's arc - getting rid of LF and finally, finally realizing that family is more important than power.

Hopefully this is not all undone next season, when she opposes Jon bending the knee. I can understand her having concerns - but for there to be proper character development, Sansa should very quickly see what's at stake, trust that Jon knows what he is doing and present an united front for house Stark to the other Northern houses. And this is where she probably suggests a Jon-Dany marriage.

8 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Scripts are written from the audience's perspective so I wouldn't trust them. It's clear in S7 that a lot of trickery is going on, that they are also writing to fool the audience into believing things, as illustrated in their commentary AFTER the episode has aired:

What does this mean? Scripts are written from an 'audience perspective'? The audience is just going to watch the show and get their information. These scripts, taken from the Writer's guild library and probably submitted by HBO or D&D, are the final production scripts and are meant for the actors, directors and production crew. They are not meant for an audience. No script is.

So when it says things like Arya is right, Jon realizes he loves Dany (and so does Tyrion), Davos is an old perv etc. - those are for the actors and directors.

And I am not sure what those quotes you link to are supposed to tell me? Yeah, this is Game of Thones and there's so much tension between Arya and Sansa that it's entirely believable that Sansa will betray her family and that they will end up killing each other. But all ends well and that did not happen. So? It does not in any way take away from what the show and the script is telling me about everything that leads up that conclusion.

If none of what happened between Arya and Sansa was real - the script would have mentioned it. That's the point of a script.

Edited December 7, 2018 by anamika

Colorful Mess · December 7, 2018

"Sansa fought with her siblings"

Arya instigated every one of those arguements though if I recall.

I'm not really sure what you want Sansa to do when Arya is the antagonist for these scenes, threatening to cut her sister's face off.

Arya is the one who got fooled by LF. He planted the scroll and Arya fell right into his trap. Sansa was woke to what he is back in Season 6. She just has to entertain him because she needs his men. Which is what she tells Brienne.

So yeah I dunno. Your interpretation of Sansa's arc seems really off to me. "The pack survives" was about the two sisters having a bonding moment to resolve their differences. It wasnt about Sansa being the lone wolf who will betray her family - oh and now she decides she isnt going to. Disagreements arent "betrayals." Wanting to be heard isnt "mistrust." To create this fake Starkbowl plot Arya was written to be a "betrayer" as well since, you know, she's acting suspicious based on info that LF is feeding her. But you have to remember the two sisters are bad at understanding each other and Sansa knows LF better than Arya does.

I can't take any argument seriously about "power hungry Sansa" when a character like Dany exists.

As far as the scripts go, in a show about lies and deceit and when the showrunners worship the Almighty Shocking Twist - the scripts arent trustworthy. For example, the script for 7x7 had Cersei looking surprised when Euron stormed off in the dragonpit. But then we find out later that she planned it that way. So the script is written to hide the twist at that moment. Its not going to say "Cersei pretends to be surprised." Instead it's "Cersei is surprised." (Can't remember the exact wording). The Winterfell plot seems similar to that set-up for deception of the audience because they wanted us to think they were actually going to kill each other but they were going to kill Littlefinger instead. It was really stupid because smart viewers knew this would never happen.

Also note that the show never reveals the "planning" for the twist from the conspirators' perspective, they just show the plan being executed or they reveal later that it was all a ruse. But we never see the scenes for planning the twist itself or see it spelled out on the scripts, which makes sense because duh - its not a twist anymore.

Other issues that could muddy the water even further is script changes expressed through conversations/notes given to the actor on set that are not in the script. They might also be doing script protection. Twists shouldnt be revealed earlier than necessary in the script if they are worried about leaks spoiling things later on. I do think there are several places where the acting doesn't match the scripts (my interpretation of course). That could be explained by script protection, different direction, a twist to come, bad acting, bad direction, ect.

Above all what matters is what we see on screen. That is the final product.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Colorful Mess

anamika · December 7, 2018

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

As far as the scripts go, in a show about lies and deceit and when the showrunners worship the Almighty Shocking Twist - the scripts arent trustworthy. For example, the script for 7x7 had Cersei looking surprised when Euron stormed off in the dragonpit. But then we find out later that she planned it that way. So the script is written to hide the twist at that moment. Its not going to say "Cersei pretends to be surprised." Instead it's "Cersei is surprised." (Can't remember the exact wording). The Winterfell plot seems similar to that set-up for deception of the audience because they wanted us to think they were actually going to kill each other but they were going to kill Littlefinger instead. It was really stupid because smart viewers knew this would never happen.

For the last time, scripts are for the actors, directors and the production crew - it's to tell them the story and how they should play out that story. Cersei should act surprised in that scene - hence the script says Cersei is surprised. It does not give us her inner thoughts here. Just direction for how Lena Headey plays Cersei there. It's the same with the trial scene, Maisie is supposed to play Arya as expecting her trial and execution for the surprise reveal to the audience that it's actually for LF. So the script talks about how Arya walks in looking at all the guards as expecting her trial. Again, we don't get Arya's inner thoughts here.

So things like - Arya is right, she knows it, we know it, Sansa knows it - is for the actors and directors playing out that plot. Tyrion is supposed to look at Dany this way:

Quote

“He studies her face. […] Dany is staring into the distance so Tyrion is able to watch her from up close. Goddamn but she is beautiful. [. . .] He watches her for a beat too long and turns away. Lost in her own thoughts, she doesn’t notice that he’s flustered.”

When Jon is looking at Dany in the boat, this is how he is supposed to be feeling:

Quote

“Jon has truly never seen a girl like this before. Her beauty, her strength, her grief and the pain it makes him feel … they all push him to the realization that he loves her.”

These scripts are not put in there to fool anyone! The audience are not meant to see them until they go into a dusty library and request these scripts. The audience is meant to watch the show and be surprised and shocked by the twists from the show. And not the scripts. These are production scripts submitted by HBO to the Writers guild library.

2 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

Arya is the one who got fooled by LF. He planted the scroll and Arya fell right into his trap. Sansa was woke to what he is back in Season 6. She just has to entertain him because she needs his men. Which is what she tells Brienne.

Not according to the scripts. Sansa was the fool who trusted LF and took advice from him. Was Arya's plot last season a clusterfuck? No doubt. Like I have always said, her FM training was a waste considering how easily LF followed her and planted that letter for her to find. But Arya rightly saw LF as a villain who was conspiring against Jon. And he was.

Sansa has known LF for 7 freaking seasons. She tells Jon at the end of last season that only a fool would trust LF and then proceeds to do exactly that!! The Vale and Royce was never on LF's side. LF threatened to have Royce thrown out of the moon door. Why would Royce support LF? Sansa only tells Arya that LF is around because he helped them (more specifically, because he helped her since she wants all the credit for the Vale army).

Sansa kept LF around because he was her asset, and only hers. Not Jon's or Arya's. He was there for her, flattered her and wanted to make her Queen in the North. And she fell for it because she wanted to be Queen in the North. Until she realizes at the very end what that would mean and what LF nearly makes her do. As Sophie Turner says, it will be interesting to see what Sansa is able to manage without LF now:

Quote

How will Sansa fare next season without Littlefinger in her ear?
It’s going to be tricky for her, because at the end of last season, she felt that she had everything set up. She had her family back together. They were in control of the North again. This season, there’s a new threat, and all of a sudden she finds herself somewhat back in the deep end. And without Littlefinger, it’s a test for her of whether she can get through it. It’s a big challenge for her, without this master manipulator having her back. This season is more a passionate fight for her than a political, manipulative kind of fight.

Once again, LF had Sansa's back. Not anyone else's. That's why she kept him around.

Edited December 7, 2018 by anamika

GrailKing · December 7, 2018

23 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

Then that's on her. The wildlings and the Night's Watch fought for her battle with the Boltons. She could talk to them, try to understand better. She could send a raven to the Wall and ask for some representatives to come to Winterfell and hold conference with the lords to give them some perspective. No one is asking Sansa to write a thesis on the WW, but she has access to resources that she isn't using because the script wants her to know more about storing grains for winter and padding armor for the cold than seasoned knights and lords, and be smarter than everyone in the room even though her political acumen is limited to "trust the guy that wants to bone me".

Umm how's this on her?, she herself hasn't seen a WW, and it's clear many of the Northern lords don't believe it either, even after Jon's speech.

If, the lords didn't believe Jon, they sure as hell not going to believe the Nw, who many now feel are cut throats and lairs, and they won't believe wildlings; maybe Jon and Danny should had made pit stops at Karhold, Last Hearth and Winterfell.

Sansa's doing well above what's asked of her, Jon on the other hand doesn't seem to be keeping her abreast on his doings.

9 minutes ago, anamika said:

Not according to the scripts. Sansa was the fool who trusted LF and took advice from him. Was Arya's plot last season a clusterfuck? No doubt. Like I have always said, her FM training was a waste considering how easily LF followed her and planted that letter for her to find. But Arya rightly saw LF as a villain who was conspiring against Jon. And he was.

Sansa has known LF for 7 freaking seasons. She tells Jon at the end of last season that only a fool would trust LF and then proceeds to do exactly that!! The Vale and Royce was never on LF's side. LF threatened to have Royce thrown out of the moon door. Why would Royce support LF? Sansa only tells Arya that LF is around because he helped them (more specifically, because he helped her since she wants all the credit for the Vale army).

Sansa kept LF around because he was her asset, and only hers. Not Jon's or Arya's. He was there for her, flattered her, praised her and wanted to make her Queen in the North. And she fell for it because she wanted to be Queen in the North. Until she realizes at the very end what that would mean and what LF nearly makes her do.

Screw the scripts -

Cogman, D&D, writers, directors and Maisie Williams own words and WOTW own insiders go against everything in that script, except the basic ( per GRRM ) of " the sisters have issues to resolve ", nothing else in those scripts match what was on screen.

anamika · December 7, 2018

10 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Screw the scripts -

Cogman, D&D, writers, directors and Maisie Williams own words and WOTW own insiders go against everything in that script, except the basic ( per GRRM ) of " the sisters have issues to resolve ", nothing else in those scripts match what was on screen.

But you want to ignore Isaac's own words about how after her last scene with LF in Jon's office, Sansa consulted Bran about whether LF was really a bad man before she 'gutted her sister' right?

If you want to stick to your personal headcanon that Sansa masterfully manipulated LF and personally outwitted him using Brienne or some such, go for it. As per the show, Sansa got fully played by LF until the very last episode and she kicked Brienne out because she realized that she had to share Brienne with Arya and felt that Brienne would side with Arya over Sansa after watching them bond. That's show canon.

GrailKing · December 7, 2018

27 minutes ago, anamika said:

But you want to ignore Isaac's own words about how after her last scene with LF in Jon's office, Sansa consulted Bran about whether LF was really a bad man before she 'gutted her sister' right?

If you want to stick to your personal headcanon that Sansa masterfully manipulated LF and personally outwitted him using Brienne or some such, go for it. As per the show, Sansa got fully played by LF until the very last episode and she kicked Brienne out because she realized that she had to share Brienne with Arya and felt that Brienne would side with Arya over Sansa after watching them bond. That's show canon.

I never ignored that and you know it, because I addressed it, IHW was giving his opinion, and used a euphemism that got you and many others in a tizzy, everyone else ( including that director ) had the opinion different from him.

WOTW actually had inside info on that scene: Sansa ( dagger in hand ) goes to Bran, opens door, closes door; fade to black.

From how the scene ended with Sansa confused and scared, I doubt (99.9 %) Sansa's not going to Bran screaming, I want to gut that little shit ! I'm more then 99.9% sure she go in saying WTF's wrong with Arya?

Sansa is neither crazy, evil or stupid ( well except by Cersei, Joffery and Arya ).

Smad · December 7, 2018

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

"Sansa fought with her siblings"

Arya instigated every one of those arguements though if I recall.

She always has. As far back as Season 1. Arya was always antagonistic to anyone she didn't like. Apparently Arya is still stuck emotionally in S1, yet she accuses Sansa of still being S1 Sansa. I love the irony.

It's similar to the Brienne situation. Sansa raises her voice once to a woman of the same social standing (Brienne is a Lady), so of course Sansa is an evil bitch. Brienne constantly puts down and insults Pod, someone far below her on the social scale, but no one takes offense to that because Brienne=feminist=awesome.

Fandom logic in a nutshell.

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I'm not really sure what you want Sansa to do when Arya is the antagonist for these scenes, threatening to cut her sister's face off.

Why, bow down to the awesomeness that is Arya of course. She bend down for the last Ramsey Bolton character after all, she better do it for the new one.

4 hours ago, Colorful Mess said:

I can't take any argument seriously about "power hungry Sansa" when a character like Dany exists.

Forget Dany. They can't imagine Sansa being anything other than the image of her they have in mind. How can you reconcile Sansa being supposedly power hungry when one of the first things she does when Bran comes back is offer him his rightful place as Lord of Winterfell? The only position that has given her power and she gave it up without fuss. Someone who is power hungry would do that? That seriously makes no sense.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Smad

whateverdgaf · December 7, 2018

1 hour ago, Smad said:

It's similar to the Brienne situation. Sansa raises her voice once to a woman of the same social standing (Brienne is a Lady), so of course Sansa is an evil bitch. Brienne constantly puts down and insults Pod, someone far below her on the social scale, but no one takes offense to that because Brienne=feminist=awesome.

You are skipping the bit where Brienne apologised to Pod, bonded with him and is dedicating time to training him and helping him fulfil his dream. This confirmation that Sansa was acting out of pettiness, had no intention of protecting Brienne and thus have NEVER shown any proper gratitude or affection (nor has made an effort or shown a desire to) for Brienne doesn't make Sansa evil, but it does suggest some rather nasty aspects of her personality and makes me dislike her heartily after having for a while quite enjoyed her character.

I will admit, I'm disappointed that Sansa and Brienne's relationship went where it did. Pre-season 6 I loved both their characters and had hoped to see a bond form between the two like there had been between Jon and Davos or Dany and Missandei or even better like Brienne and Cat. Instead the writers have decided to create a very different dynamic, which while interesting, has made me like Sansa a lot less than I did. That's not to say it wasn't logical. I guess the authors are trying to go for a dynamic where Sansa is trying to appear like an adult and in control, causing her to be needlessly rude to someone who is just trying to help her, or maybe Sansa knows Brienne won't leave her and is Sansa's inferior, so she makes a good target to take her frustrations out on. Which is human and understandable, but very unpleasant and undeserved for the woman who has saved Sansa's life, and as a Brienne fan first and foremost it made me go off Sansa very much.

In a way, I suspect it is the same for Jon and Arya fans. We can excuse quite lot of the characters many things, but when they treat our faves in a way we don't like, they become the enemy. Funnily enough, I was disliking Arya a fair bit after the way she treated Sansa.

Edited December 7, 2018 by whateverdgaf

Smad · December 7, 2018

8 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

You are skipping the bit where Brienne apologised to Pod, bonded with him and is dedicating time to training him and helping him fulfil his dream. This confirmation that Sansa was acting out of pettiness, had no intention of protecting Brienne and thus have NEVER shown any proper gratitude or affection (nor has made an effort or shown a desire to) for Brienne doesn't make Sansa evil, but it does make me dislike her heartily after having for a while quite enjoyed her character. I will admit, I'm disappointed that Sansa and Brienne's relationship went where it did. Pre-season 6 I loved both their characters and had hoped to see a bond form between the two like there had been between Jon and Davos or Dany and Missandei and even better like Brienne and Cat. Instead the writers have decided to create a very different dynamic, which while interesting, has made me like Sansa a lot less than I did.

In a way, I suspect it is the same for Jon and Arya fans. We can excuse quite lot of the characters, but when they treat our faves in a way we don't like, they become the enemy. Funnily enough, I was disliking Arya a fair bit after the way she treated Sansa.

So Brienne apologized? Big whoop. When it's something you do again and again it doesn't mean much. The apologies don't mean much. If you were truly sorry you would adjust your behavior so that a 'sorry' is not needed because you changed as a person. If I were to hit you and said I'm sorry but then I do it again and again. How much is my apology really worth? But me not hitting you, that would show I'm actually sorry by having changed my behavior.

I can't dislike Sansa for the writers inability to write female relationships. Only thing they seem able to do is girl on girl action. But actual female relationships? Pft, that's beyond their capabilities. For them women either have girl talks but no closer relationship beyond that (Dani/Missandei). They are bitches to each other. Or they are catty. Or standoff-ish. Or screw each other over. Just look at the DudeBros vs Stark siblings in 7x06. A huge group of men, all very different, get along just fine. They bond, they joke and they have each others back even though some barely know each other. And there are Arya and Sansa, freaking family, being idiots, catty, murderous and just plain bitches (Arya more so than Sansa) towards each other. While these guys can talk to each other about their life stories, Sansa and Arya apparently can't sit down and freaking talk about what they have been through.

Colorful Mess · December 7, 2018

4 hours ago, anamika said:

For the last time, scripts are for the actors, directors and the production crew - it's to tell them the story and how they should play out that story. Cersei should act surprised in that scene - hence the script says Cersei is surprised. It does not give us her inner thoughts here. Just direction for how Lena Headey plays Cersei there. It's the same with the trial scene, Maisie is supposed to play Arya as expecting her trial and execution for the surprise reveal to the audience that it's actually for LF. So the script talks about how Arya walks in looking at all the guards as expecting her trial. Again, we don't get Arya's inner thoughts here.

"How they should play out that story" isn't going to be the "full story" for various reasons that I've described. This is a show where people are deceiving each other. Imagine if they pushed the reveal that Cersei was lying back to S8. We would be speculating on a completely different outcome. Leaving out her perspective would be a misdirect and a form of unreliable narrator for TV (something GRRM does in the books All. The. Damn. Time.) Likewise, from the outline, "Sansa contemplates her next move. She never utters the words but it seems clear that her next move is to kill Arya." Misdirect? Likely, because we are shown that her next move is to kill Littlefinger. Then later the show runners tell us that all of this was created because they wanted to drum up tension to make you think it goes one way then they flip it. It's fake tension. They're notorious trolls. That's why I dont believe what the scripts say and analyze what's on screen.

What does Sansa want? Arya thinks she wants Jon's power and Arya is the one who can't stop thinking about it. We are not shown Sansa obsessing over power. We are shown her doing work to make sure Jon has a functioning kingdom to come back to. Unfortunately she has to fend off antagonistic b.s. from Arya. That's what comes across in the final product.

4 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa has known LF for 7 freaking seasons. She tells Jon at the end of last season that only a fool would trust LF and then proceeds to do exactly that!!

In the final product they left Sansa ambiguous through most of the season so I wouldn't really speak with factual knowledge of how Sansa views Littlefinger. Having scenes with him doesn't mean she's buying into his bullshit.

If you want Sansa to propose a marriage to Jon/Dany (are they too dumb to do that themselves?), that also involves listening to Littlefinger. So it's probably a bad idea.

whateverdgaf · December 7, 2018

11 minutes ago, Smad said:

So Brienne apologized? Big whoop. When it's something you do again and again it doesn't mean much. The apologies don't mean much. If you were truly sorry you would adjust your behavior so that a 'sorry' is not needed because you changed as a person. If I were to hit you and said I'm sorry but then I do it again and again. How much is my apology really worth? But me not hitting you, that would show I'm actually sorry by having changed my behavior.

I can't dislike Sansa for the writers inability to write female relationships. Only thing they seem able to do is girl on girl action. But actual female relationships? Pft, that's beyond their capabilities. For them women either have girl talks but no closer relationship beyond that (Dani/Missandei). They are bitches to each other. Or they are catty. Or standoff-ish. Or screw each other over. Just look at the DudeBros vs Stark siblings in 7x06. A huge group of men, all very different, get along just fine. They bond, they joke and they have each others back even though some barely know each other. And there are Arya and Sansa, freaking family, being idiots, catty, murderous and just plain bitches (Arya more so than Sansa) towards each other. While these guys can talk to each other about their life stories, Sansa and Arya apparently can't sit down and freaking talk about what they have been through.

After Brienne's apology she makes a promise to help Pod and sticks to it, vey much showing that the apology meant something.

Brienne makes digs at Podrick, but also has taken the time to give up her time and energy to train him and help him accomplish his goals, showing her regard and care for him. Podrick accepts this is how Brienne shows her affection, and embraces it, as evidenced by his only growing affection of her. That Pod does not view these jibes as a deal breaker is evident is his relationship with Bronn and Tyrion, and this continues with Brienne. Instead, they both show their care and respect for each in different ways, which they both accept and understand. Unlike Brienne, Sansa does nothing to suggest she has any care for Brienne. Sansa's rudeness to Brienne in season 7 isn't the problem in itself, but the fact that along with this she has done nothing that suggests Brienne is of any value to her casts her in a very unpleasant light. Whereas Brienne is rude to Podrick (who has established he doesn't mind), but invests time and effort to show that he matters to her and she respects him.

These scripts shows that it is the writer's intentions that Sansa resent Brienne for having a friendship with Arya, a very unpleasant revelation about her character. That is very much the writer's intentions. That is not their trying to write a mutually loving relationship and failing, that is the writers wanting Sansa to treat Brienne this way.

And at the end of the day, we can only go by what we have on screen. 'Girl talks' (which I disagree with in terms of being the only relationships on the show, Brienne and Arya/Catelyn, Arya and Lady Crane, Sansa and Shae etc..) may be insufficient in terms of skill, but is shows the writer's intent is to show a good relationship. That they don't include anything like that between Sansa and Brienne only tells me one thing, and that is Sansa doesn't care about Brienne.

Edited December 7, 2018 by whateverdgaf

Minneapple · December 7, 2018

1 hour ago, Smad said:

Forget Dany. They can't imagine Sansa being anything other than the image of her they have in mind. How can you reconcile Sansa being supposedly power hungry when one of the first things she does when Bran comes back is offer him his rightful place as Lord of Winterfell? The only position that has given her power and she gave it up without fuss. Someone who is power hungry would do that? That seriously makes no sense.

It's her secret power hungry plan. Along with helping to install Jon as King in the North and offering him Ned and Cat's rooms. Those are all signs of her secretly plotting to be queen.

Colorful Mess · December 7, 2018

3 minutes ago, Minneapple said:

It's her secret power hungry plan. Along with helping to install Jon as King in the North and offering him Ned and Cat's rooms. Those are all signs of her secretly plotting to be queen.

Dont forget - another terrible thing Sansa could do is tell Jon to clean up his own mess. The horror. Instant mustache twirling villain.

(Jon needing Sansa to help him so he can continue to have sex with his aunt without repercussions and fight the WW at the same time is hilarious to me).

GrailKing · December 7, 2018

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

You are skipping the bit where Brienne apologised to Pod, bonded with him and is dedicating time to training him and helping him fulfil his dream.

Yet was still ready to bite his head off in the courtyard of WF as the three siblings came in together, as he called her a lady, she did catch herself, but it goes to show old ways die hard.

whateverdgaf · December 7, 2018

7 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Yet was still ready to bite his head off in the courtyard of WF as the three siblings came in together, as he called her a lady, she did catch herself, but it goes to show old ways die hard.

"I did next to nothing" is not biting his head off, but even if it was as you say, Brienne still caught herself and made an effort to change her attitude. That Brienne has treated Pod poorly is not the issue, it's that she has also made great effort into checking herself and treating him well, something Pod appreciates and accepts. Meanwhile Sansa has either treated Brienne poorly or indifferently. One moment of genuinely selfless and kind treatment of Brienne from Sansa would make all the difference, but there isn't one.

Edited December 7, 2018 by whateverdgaf

Smad · December 7, 2018

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

After Brienne's apology she makes a promise to help Pod and sticks to it, vey much showing that the apology meant something.

Or it's just smart of her to teach him so she has to look out less for him. So he can defend himself so she can do her job.

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

Brienne makes digs at Podrick, but also has taken the time to give up her time and energy to train him and help him accomplish his goals, showing her regard and care for him. Podrick accepts this is how Brienne shows her affection, and embraces it, as evidenced by his only growing affection of her. That Pod does not view these jibes as a deal breaker is evident is his relationship with Bronn and Tyrion, and this continues with Brienne. Instead, they both show their care and respect for each in different ways, which they both accept and understand. Unlike Brienne, Sansa does nothing to suggest she has any care for Brienne. Sansa's rudeness to Brienne in season 7 isn't the problem in itself, but the fact that along with this she has done nothing that suggests Brienne is of any value to her casts her in a very unpleasant light. Whereas Brienne is rude to Podrick (who has established he doesn't mind), but invests time and effort to show that he matters to her and she respects him.

She still did it. And more than once. Eventually changing her tune is nice and all but it doesn't negate anything. Brienne used to treat him like a hindrance and annoyance. I don't care that Pod doesn't see it that way. Any normal person would feel like crap for being treated that way. Just because Pod isn't allowed to by the writers doesn't change the fact that Brienne behaved the way she did. And maybe if the writers were capable, Sansa and Brienne's relationship would be different. They just can't do it. They can't do female relationships. And it's not a priority of theirs either, it would get in the way of all the sexism and DudeBro writing.

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

These scripts shows that it is the writer's intentions that Sansa resent Brienne for having a friendship with Arya, a very unpleasant revelation about her character. That is very much the writer's intentions. That is not their trying to write a mutually loving relationship and failing, that is the writers wanting Sansa to treat Brienne this way.

WHO CARES WHAT'S IN THE SCRIPTS? Seriously how many times does this need to be said? Just the fact that the script suggests that Arya and Brienne have any kind of relationship, much less a friendship, shows they should be discarded as evidence for anything. Arya and Brienne have NO relationship on screen. They have 2 scenes in the WHOLE show. Once with the Hound and then the stupid sparring match in 7x04. That's it. That's not a relationship whatsoever.

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

And at the end of the day, we can only go by what we have on screen.

Then why did you bring up the scripts to make your point?

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

'Girl talks' (which I disagree with in terms of being the only relationships on the show, Brienne and Arya/Catelyn, Arya and Lady Crane, Sansa and Shae etc..) may be insufficient in terms of skill, but is shows the writer's intent is to show a good relationship. That they don't include anything like that between Sansa and Brienne only tells me one thing, and that is Sansa doesn't care about Brienne.

Your examples are all from way back when. When D&D still cared and still had the books to fall back on. As we have been subjected to pure D&D for the past few Seasons, there are no examples you listed from those. Interesting.

And don't twist my words, I specifically said 'girl talk' in regards to Missandei and Dany in S7 (dishing about Grey Worm's amazing skills in bed). We never see those two bond as women or friends and then we get girl talk about the sexual prowess of a man. Nuff said.

46 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Dont forget - another terrible thing Sansa could do is tell Jon to clean up his own mess. The horror. Instant mustache twirling villain.

(Jon needing Sansa to help him so he can continue to have sex with his aunt without repercussions and fight the WW at the same time is hilarious to me).

You know Sansa will probably have to be the one to suggest political marriage because Dany, Jon and their entire entourage of advisors are too stupid to think of something so simple. Most of us with a working brain were thinking that during S7, as it would have solved a lot of problems. Dany leaves Daario behind to free herself up for a political marriage but no one suggests it's done with the only guy who is currently a King of a Kingdom. /facepalm

And hell yeah Jon better clean up his own mess. He better be the one to explain how and why he bend the knee and then deal with the potential fallout. It's getting tiring with Jon. First he's rewarded with a King title for the achievements of women (Arya&Sansa) and then he flits off and leaves Sansa to deal with the mess in the North. Then casually mentions he pissed everyone's freedom away and doesn't even have the stones to do it in person in front of the Lords. He probably expects that Sansa will tell the North and sort it all out while he's still away. What a putz.

Edited December 7, 2018 by Smad

whateverdgaf · December 7, 2018

1 minute ago, Smad said:

Then why did you bring up the scripts to make your point?

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

'Girl talks' (which I disagree with in terms of being the only relationships on the show, Brienne and Arya/Catelyn, Arya and Lady Crane, Sansa and Shae etc..) may be insufficient in terms of skill, but is shows the writer's intent is to show a good relationship. That they don't include anything like that between Sansa and Brienne only tells me one thing, and that is Sansa doesn't care about Brienne.

Your examples are all from way back when. When D&D still cared and still had the books to fall back on. As we have been subjected to pure D&D for the past few Seasons, there are no examples you listed from those. Interesting.

I bring up the scripts to counter the points that it was unintentional on D&D's behalf that Sansa treated Brienne poorly and the argument that Sansa was doing it to protect Brienne (which was entirely unsupported by onscreen evidence but was still being suggested). What happens on screen was enough for me, but that isn't the case for everyone.

Lady Crane and Arya, Brienne and Arya, the continuation of Dany and Missandei are all from recent seasons. Even if you believe these relationships were poorly done (which I don't necessarily agree with) it's clear the writers intended for them to show mutual respect between the characters. So even if they aren't good at writing female relationships, they can make it clear when they are trying to write a positive one.

whateverdgaf · December 7, 2018

5 minutes ago, Smad said:

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

She still did it. And more than once. Eventually changing her tune is nice and all but it doesn't negate anything. Brienne used to treat him like a hindrance and annoyance. I don't care that Pod doesn't see it that way. Any normal person would feel like crap for being treated that way. Just because Pod isn't allowed to by the writers doesn't change the fact that Brienne behaved the way she did. And maybe if the writers were capable, Sansa and Brienne's relationship would be different. They just can't do it. They can't do female relationships. And it's not a priority of theirs either, it would get in the way of all the sexism and DudeBro writing.

I don't agree that every normal person reacts the same to rudeness. When it comes from a person who otherwise puts in a great deal of effort to help you, many can accept the flaws in others. I also disagree that a person recognising her faults and making strides to improve them is meaningless. Even so, what makes a distinction between Brienne and Sansa is Brienne makes an effort. She tries to do well by Pod, even if she makes mistakes. You may still not like Brienne as a result, but she puts in time and effort to show Podrick he matters to her. Sansa does NOTHING. That is the main problem. Brienne cares enough about Pod to dedicate two hours of her time every day in order to help him achieve his dreams. At no point does Sansa do anything to show Brienne she is of value to her, and then is outright rude to her.

All I ask of Sansa is a bit effort, something to suggest Brienne matters to her, same as Brienne does for Pod. But Sansa doesn't. Because Brienne doesn't matter to her.

11 minutes ago, Smad said:

1 hour ago, whateverdgaf said:

Or it's just smart of her to teach him so she has to look out less for him. So he can defend himself so she can do her job.

There is nothing to indicate that this is Brienne's intentions, and considering Brienne made her offer after apologising to Podrick and does so after confirming Podrick wishes to be knight, it is clear that Brienne is doing so for Podrick's benefit. The scene was staged as a heart warming, bonding moment between the two. Brienne's motives are clear, and her motives are pure.

GrailKing · December 7, 2018

50 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

"I did next to nothing" is not biting his head off, but even if it was as you say, Brienne still caught herself and made an effort to change her attitude. That Brienne has treated Pod poorly is not the issue, it's that she has also made great effort into checking herself and treating him well, something Pod appreciates and accepts. Meanwhile Sansa has either treated Brienne poorly or indifferently. One moment of genuinely selfless and kind treatment of Brienne from Sansa would make all the difference, but there isn't one.

It's not the words, it was the tone and body language she used.

And Sansa was rude or short with her only once, and after Brienne forced the issue. Brienne was smart enough to know why Jon put Sansa in charge, she should also be smart enough and understanding enough to know Sansa's wanting to be a grown up and make decisions.

Brienne's not at fault for caring, but she started to insist and Sansa, put her foot down.

I'm sure if both thought about it later, they both could think a better way to handle it.

Brienne had years of experience with this, Sansa what ! a few weeks.

We're not going to agree totally, so there it is.

Edited December 7, 2018 by GrailKing

whateverdgaf · December 7, 2018

Just now, GrailKing said:

And Sansa was rude or short with her only once, and after Brienne forced the issue. Brienne was smart enough to know why Jon put Sansa in charge, she should also be smart enough and understanding enough to know Sansa's wanting to be a grown up and make decisions.

Brienne's not at fault for caring, but she started to insist and Sansa, put her foot down.

I'm sure if both thought about it later, they both could think a better way to handle it.

Brienne had years of experience with this, Sansa what ! a few weeks.

We're not going to agree totally, so there it is.

Sansa was rude to Brienne once, and kind to Brienne never. That is the issue. After everything Brienne has done for Sansa, we have never seen a scene in which Sansa makes an effort to show Brienne that she holds her in high regard, nor has she given any indication that she does.

Sansa being rude to a woman who is giving her advice is just a sign that Sansa is failing to be a grown up.

GrailKing · December 7, 2018

50 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

Sansa was rude to Brienne once, and kind to Brienne never. That is the issue. After everything Brienne has done for Sansa, we have never seen a scene in which Sansa makes an effort to show Brienne that she holds her in high regard, nor has she given any indication that she does.

Sansa being rude to a woman who is giving her advice is just a sign that Sansa is failing to be a grown up.

And how do we know she was never kind in their 1000 mile trek?

They got along well, even in CB, Sansa took in her words and actually gave pause and thought.

And the one time Sansa was rude, she's juggling: get WF ready plate, keep LF at bay plate, my little brother is spaced out plate, my little sister is antagonistic plate, the windvane lords plate, the Jon is away plate ( soon to be bent the knee plate ), Cersei wants me in KL plate etc.

Brienne has maybe two plates: Train Pod and civilian plates .

whateverdgaf · December 7, 2018

4 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

And how do we know she was never kind in their 1000 mile trek?

They got along well, even in CB, Sansa took in her words and actually gave pause and thought.

And the one time Sansa was rude, she's juggling: get WF ready plate, keep LF at bay plate, my little brother is spaced out plate, my little sister is antagonistic plate, the windvane lords plate, the Jon is away plate ( soon to be bent the knee plate ), Cersei wants me in KL plate etc.

Brienne has maybe two plates: Train Pod and civilian plates .

There is nothing to indicate that Sansa was kind to Brienne. Claiming that 'we don't know it didn't happen is no sufficient evidence. Being civil is not sufficient after what Brienne has done for Sansa.

Sansa was able to show kindness to others while juggling those plates, she could very well do the same for Brienne. And after what Brienne has done for Sansa, the absolute minimum Sansa can do for Brienne is make the effort to show Brienne the appropriate respect and gratitude. Or at least show some indication of wanting to,

Edited December 7, 2018 by whateverdgaf

GrailKing · December 7, 2018

2 minutes ago, whateverdgaf said:

There is nothing to indicate that Sansa was kind to Brienne. Claiming that 'we don't know it didn't happen is no sufficient evidence. Being civil is not sufficient after what Brienne has done for Sansa.

Sansa was able to show kindness to others while juggling those plates, she could very well do the same for Brienne. And after what Brienne has done for Sansa, the absolute minimum Sansa can do for Brienne is make the effort to show Brienne the appropriate respect and gratitude. Or at least show some indication of wanting to,

As I said we're not going to agree.

screamin · December 8, 2018

15 hours ago, anamika said:

Yes, what Arya is saying is that Sansa wants to be queen and is thinking about this but does not want to think about it because that's wrong. So Sansa understands that it's wrong - and she fully realizes it at the very end with LF in Jon's office that she had very nearly done what the devil on her shoulder suggested. But all the while from the end of season 6, she is thinking about it and contemplating it. It's like the script saying that Sansa is slightly disappointed that Bran is back - because he would now be Lord of WF, not her. Does she want to be disappointed that a beloved brother is back home? I am sure not. But she is, because she wants to be the person in charge...

And Jon is aware of this. Jon knows what Sansa is doing in the great hall with the lords - he asks that Sansa not undermine him. Jon basically calls Sansa's false praise horse shit because her behavior tells him that words are wind.

Arya first detects this desire in Sansa when she observes Sansa presiding over the Lords and how she is tempted by Glover's words - she confronts Sansa about not doing anything when they insulted Jon to get their support for herself. Because she wants to be queen. And the script says that it should be clear to everyone by now, that Arya is right - because it is! We have seen it for two seasons now.

And this then becomes the bone of contention between Sansa and Arya. Arya thinks Sansa and LF are conspiring together because they are always hanging out, Sansa gets advice from him and Arya observes LF talking to Glover and Royce - after which they both want to make Sansa queen. To which suggestion Sansa is not overly resistant.

Arya then finds the letter and accuses Sansa of being a traitor. Was Arya being overzealous here and when she threatens Sansa? Yes. But as per the show, she thinks Sansa is now trying to usurp a most beloved brother.

I totally agree that Sansa DOES have an occasional thought that she could be a better ruler than Jon, and even have a bit of unwilling pleasure in the thought before putting it aside in horror. Hence the script pointing out that Arya is 'right' when she says that. But I disagree with you in this.

"Yeah, this is Game of Thones and there's so much tension between Arya and Sansa that it's entirely believable that Sansa will betray her family and that they will end up killing each other."

Because you see and Arya sees that Sansa doesn't want to think these thoughts. And immediately rejecting THOUGHTS of betrayal as a possibility is NOT the way to plan a coup to 'usurp' anyone. It is not a difficult concept for Arya to grasp, that the VERY FIRST STEP required to usurp someone with a betrayal is to WANT to think about it...WANT to think about it enough to be able to consider the practical steps required to achieve it and plan how to take them. Arya's a bright girl, she SEES that while Sansa does feel an attraction toward the power, she puts the thought aside because she doesn't want to feel it - but Arya deliberately closes her eyes to the obvious conclusion that a person who immediately puts aside the thought that she likes the ideas of having someone else's power as something that is wrong, that she does not want to think about is not - indeed, CANNOT - at the same time be plotting to take it. Arya closes her eyes to it because she WANTS to believe the worst of Sansa - even if that means that Arya ends up acting to betray Jon's interests in doing so.

You acknowledge that Jon KNOWS that Sansa thinks she could exercise his power better than he could...but he trusts her enough to hand over the regency to her when he leaves, KNOWING that because of this desire, she'll do her level best to rule wisely while he's gone, conciliate the conflicting desires of LF, the Vale lords, the Northern lords who supported Jon and the ones who didn't swear fealty till after Jon won...and trusting her to butter them up sufficiently so they'll all be there ready to fight for him when he gets back, instead of each going home to hunker down for winter, which is what they'd all prefer to be doing.

I really don't think Jon would have a problem with the way Sansa did it. Yes, he MIGHT raise an eyebrow at her being too friendly to the more undermining lords, but I REALLY don't think he'd approve more of Arya's proposed approach of threatening to cut their heads off if they dare express doubt of Jon. I don't even think he'd disapprove of Sansa making contingency plans of what to do to maintain the Northern alliance under herself if Jon doesn't come back. It's a real possibility - it almost DID happen. If Sansa does what Arya wants - tries to maintain a rigid grip on everyone's doubts by forbidding everyone to express the least doubt of Jon with threats of beheading those who do the way Arya wants, and treating anyone who shows a fleeting desire to go against Jon's plans, even if they reject the thought before speaking it, as if they were ALREADY plotting against him and threaten them with death for it, the way Arya did with Sansa - the North is doomed. If Jon DOESN'T come back, the North will have no contingency plans to work together without him, because they've been forbidden to even contemplate the possibility, much less PLAN for it. And if Jon DOES come back, he'll likely find his coalition shattered, because he handed power over to a ruler prone to tyrannical, irrational thinking. Wanting to threaten someone with death for a THOUGHT that they didn't want and NOBODY has absolute conscious control over is both tyrannical and irrational. Jon would not approve.

Basically, Arya rakes Sansa over the coals, accusing her of planning treachery against poor noble Jon, and of deliberately undermining Jon because she believes she's smarter than he is and knows better than what he's ordered...when Arya is in fact projecting, doing exactly what she's accusing Sansa of WANTING to do. Jon trusted Sansa enough to leave her in charge. Arya is deciding Jon is too stupid to know what's best for himself and the kingdom, and taking it upon herself to attack and threaten the regent he chose, because SHE knows better than him. What Arya reviles Sansa for even THINKING about, Arya is fine with doing herself. Arya is good at seeing other people's secret unsavory desires, but she's blind to her own. If someone were standing next to Arya reading her face when she confronted Sansa, it wouldn't require a Faceless Man's training to read "You want to kill her. And you're not rejecting that thought as wrong; you're reveling in it."

Nothing that Sansa did deserved that response. Jon would tell her so if he were there. And Sansa was right to fear it. Fortunately she was willing to look beyond the dangerous hostility instead of just returning what Arya was throwing at her.

anamika · December 8, 2018

3 hours ago, screamin said:

But I disagree with you in this.

"Yeah, this is Game of Thones and there's so much tension between Arya and Sansa that it's entirely believable that Sansa will betray her family and that they will end up killing each other."

That's not what I said. That's what D&D said. The sisters were fighting and threatening each other and they wanted the audience to believe that Sansa and Arya could actually end up killing each other in the end. But as we saw, Sansa finally figured out that LF was a very bad man in the last episode before she actually did any of that.

3 hours ago, screamin said:

Because you see and Arya sees that Sansa doesn't want to think these thoughts. And immediately rejecting THOUGHTS of betrayal as a possibility is NOT the way to plan a coup to 'usurp' anyone

I am not sure why people keep bringing up that Sansa is not mounting a coup when no one here has said that she is. I think the obfuscation here is because people want to see Sansa as this selfless, flawless, best queen who has nothing but the interests of her family at heart. And that is not what the character has been about thus far. In either the books or the show. Next season is hopefully when she will finally put family first.

This is what happens on the show. Sansa reunites with Jon and is all happy and plans to take WF with him. LF then Needles her about Jon only being her half brother and how she needs her own army. The Tully and Vale armies would be solely for Sansa and not for Ned's son Jon. Sansa starts lying to Jon from here on. She writes to LF about the Vale army and does not tell Jon about this because she wants to win the battle with her army, get the credit and become head of house Stark. She uses Jon and then does not divulge vital information that can get them victory. Is this not a betrayal of Jon's trust?

The thing with Sansa is that her desire for power makes her do things that have bad consequences for her family. Did she want to deliberately betray her father in KL? Surely not. But by tattling about Ned's plans to Cersei so that she could marry Joffrey and become queen, that was exactly what she was doing. Sansa felt wicked when she slinked away to meet with Cersei - because subconsciously she knew it was wrong. But she did it anyway.

Similarly Sansa knows that it would be wrong and betrayal if she deposes Jon and becomes Queen. Therefore, she does not want to be thinking about it. But LF's constant praise and manipulations is making her do things that is actually a betrayal of Jon and has consequences for him - in that Sansa and LF are fostering resentment against him and his rule.

3 hours ago, screamin said:

but Arya deliberately closes her eyes to the obvious conclusion that a person who immediately puts aside the thought that she likes the ideas of having someone else's power as something that is wrong, that she does not want to think about is not

But that is not the obvious conclusion because, as per the script itself, Sansa was getting played by LF and would have had Jon deposed and Arya executed. So that was still something that could have happened and Sansa very nearly went there. So why would Arya ignore everything she observes - LF manipulating the lords into supporting Sansa to which suggestion Sansa is not overly resistant?

4 hours ago, screamin said:

You acknowledge that Jon KNOWS that Sansa thinks she could exercise his power better than he could...but he trusts her enough to hand over the regency to her when he leaves, KNOWING that because of this desire, she'll do her level best to rule wisely while he's gone, conciliate the conflicting desires of LF, the Vale lords, the Northern lords who supported Jon and the ones who didn't swear fealty till after Jon won...and trusting her to butter them up sufficiently so they'll all be there ready to fight for him when he gets back, instead of each going home to hunker down for winter, which is what they'd all prefer to be doing.

There was no one else that Jon could entrust the North to was there? I am pretty sure that Jon would have been more comfortable giving the North to his more trustworthy siblings - Arya or Bran. But he thinks they are dead and Sansa is the only Stark and sibling left to him. He could only give it to her and hope that she did right by him.

And the funny thing about Sansa thinking she could exercise Jon's power better than Jon was her complaining about him giving her the job!

Quote

Sansa: I warned Jon this would happen. That he couldn't leave the North and expect it to just sit and wait for him like Ghost.

Arya: He didn't. He trusted you to hold it for him.

4 hours ago, screamin said:

I really don't think Jon would have a problem with the way Sansa did it. Yes, he MIGHT raise an eyebrow at her being too friendly to the more undermining lords, but I REALLY don't think he'd approve more of Arya's proposed approach of threatening to cut their heads off if they dare express doubt of Jon.

Well we don't know what Jon is going to face next season. LF's manipulations and Sansa's lack of support for Jon has encouraged Lords like Glover and Royce to openly speak treason against him and they have been thanked and called kind for it. When Robb was there he put a swift end to such talk with threats to hang them as oathbreakers - pretty much what Arya wanted to do - and I think if Lyanna Mormont had been there, she would have given them a good talking to and shut it down fast.

Jon has bend the knee and he will have to face these lords who have been stewing in their resentment against him. Ideally Sansa should have been building support for him, but she's managed to do the opposite.

Now that Ghost has been confirmed for next season, I hope that Jon actually does a Robb and has Ghost sit near him as the white wolf and he tells them who is boss in the Northern way - and that is not to pander to the likes of treasonous Glover. The AOTD is on the way. This is not the time to play petty games.

4 hours ago, screamin said:

If Sansa does what Arya wants - tries to maintain a rigid grip on everyone's doubts by forbidding everyone to express the least doubt of Jon with threats of beheading those who do the way Arya wants, and treating anyone who shows a fleeting desire to go against Jon's plans, even if they reject the thought before speaking it, as if they were ALREADY plotting against him and threaten them with death for it, the way Arya did with Sansa - the North is doomed. If Jon DOESN'T come back, the North will have no contingency plans to work together without him, because they've been forbidden to even contemplate the possibility, much less PLAN for it.

You do know that Westeros is a feudal system of seven kingdoms right? It's not a liberal democracy. Houses openly expressing doubts of their king are given free reign? You think Tywin would have allowed that? Tyrion? Dany? Hell, you think Sansa would have allowed it if they were speaking out against her? The Lady who wanted to kick children out of their ancestral lands because their fathers rebelled against house Stark?

And Sansa can still prepare the North and make contingency plans for the North without throwing Jon under the bus you know? It does not have to be one or the other. It's very simple for master diplomat Sansa to just tell them - "look guys, Jon is trying to get us some much needed weapons and allies to tackle the AOTD on their way here. That's essential. In the meantime, he put me in charge and I will make sure the North is sufficiently prepared - let's put some leather on those armor guys! And get all the food in here!" See how easy it is?

Davos would have done it. Sam would have done it. Why can't master diplomat Sansa? Because her intention there was to get the lords on her side instead of Jon's and that was why Arya was pissed. And that's what this - 'Arya is right. She knows it. We know it. Sansa knows it.' is about. It's not about showcasing Sansa's masterful diplomatic skills. Something more nefarious is happening here and Sansa is uncomfortable when she sees Arya observing this.

4 hours ago, screamin said:

Basically, Arya rakes Sansa over the coals, accusing her of planning treachery against poor noble Jon, and of deliberately undermining Jon because she believes she's smarter than he is and knows better than what he's ordered...when Arya is in fact projecting, doing exactly what she's accusing Sansa of WANTING to do. Jon trusted Sansa enough to leave her in charge. Arya is deciding Jon is too stupid to know what's best for himself and the kingdom, and taking it upon herself to attack and threaten the regent he chose, because SHE knows better than him.

Not that Arya's writing was great last season, but Arya very clearly notices that Sansa wants to be queen, is being chummy with LF, offers no support for Jon when the lords talk treason and observes LF manipulating the lords. She too gets manipulated by LF using the letter into believing that Sansa is capable of treason against her brother. And yes, Arya is overly protective of her brother and is thinking to defend him against a Sansa she thinks is going after Jon's position.

And well, at the end of the day, Sansa comes to her LF realization only after he oversteps and suggests that Arya wants to be Lady of WF.

Quote

LF: Jon is young and unmarried. Daenerys is young and unmarried.

Sansa: You think he wants to marry her? An alliance makes sense.

LF: Together, they'd be difficult to defeat. He was named King in the North. He can be unnamed.

Sansa: Even if I wanted to, Arya would never go along. She always loved Jon far more than she ever loved me, and she'd kill anyone who betrayed her family.

Sansa is scared to make a move against Jon because Arya has put the fear of God in her! And I love it! Like I said, did Arya go overboard threatening Sansa and making Sansa think that she could kill her? Pretty much yeah. But it had the desired effect of making Sansa think twice about deposing Jon and it was her mentioning Arya and LF overstepping here that ultimately made Sansa realize how much she was getting played by LF.

I am sure Jon will be plenty happy that Arya had his back while he was gone.

merrick715 · December 8, 2018

7 hours ago, anamika said:

I am not sure why people keep bringing up that Sansa is not mounting a coup when no one here has said that she is. I think the obfuscation here is because people want to see Sansa as this selfless, flawless, best queen who has nothing but the interests of her family at heart. And that is not what the character has been about thus far. In either the books or the show. Next season is hopefully when she will finally put family first.

She already had Petyr killed. She offered up her title as Lord/Lady of Winterfell to Bran, who came before her in succession, but he refused to claim them. What else is she supposed to do to prove her loyalty to her family and affirm her Starkness in season eight? Just like some fans see Sansa as a selfless flawless Queen, other fans see her as not being worthy of the Stark name. The whole Queen thing has always confused me, as well. In Westeros, the amount of power you have accesses too as a woman is based on who your father is and who your husband will be.

That whole book passage about Sansa feeling wicked for saying goodbye to Cersei is rooted in the fact that Sansa was the child who always did what she was told. He tells her not to do something, without providing a reason, and he thinks that is enough because it had always been good enough in the past. This brings me to something that has always annoyed me with book Ned. There is all this talk of book Sansa betraying Ned, but no one mentions his parental missteps, Do you think Ned would have broken the betrothal if the only thing that changed about Joffrey was that he had black hair and blue eye like a true Baratheon? I know the show changed things about the Tourny celebrating the Hand, but book Ned seriously screwed up. In the book, Ned allows Sansa to attend the feast with Septa Mordane. He doesn't order one or two of his household guards to escort his eleven-year-old daughter back to the Red Keep. No, he intrusts the physical safety of his highborn daughter to an old lady, who ends up passed out drunk. Freaking Joffrey shows more concern for Sansa's physical safety by having Sandor escort her home than her father.

8 hours ago, anamika said:

She too gets manipulated by LF using the letter into believing that Sansa is capable of treason against her brother. And yes, Arya is overly protective of her brother and is thinking to defend him against a Sansa she thinks is going after Jon's position.

How is framing all of Arya's actions through the lenses of protecting Jon any different than the flawless Queen Sansa narrative? Arya's love for Jon is a factor, but so is Arya's own personal issues with Sansa. Both Arya and Sansa have complex motivations and neither sister is coming from a place of purity.

screamin · December 8, 2018

8 hours ago, anamika said:

I am not sure why people keep bringing up that Sansa is not mounting a coup when no one here has said that she is.

You said that. But then you say this:

8 hours ago, anamika said:

Sansa is scared to make a move against Jon because Arya has put the fear of God in her! And I love it! Like I said, did Arya go overboard threatening Sansa and making Sansa think that she could kill her? Pretty much yeah. But it had the desired effect of making Sansa think twice about deposing Jon and it was her mentioning Arya and LF overstepping here that ultimately made Sansa realize how much she was getting played by LF.

I am sure Jon will be plenty happy that Arya had his back while he was gone.

These two statements are incompatible. You are saying that Arya frightened Sansa out of executing a coup on Jon, the coup you earlier said that you did not believe Sansa was planning. Pick one or the other. You can't have it both ways.

And I think it's actually kind of funny that you make exactly the same error Arya made. You quote the words yourself, you have them right in front of you, but you close your eyes to this:

Quote

Even if I wanted to, Arya would never go along. She always loved Jon far more than she ever loved me, and she'd kill anyone who betrayed her family.

She's telling LF, who (unlike Arya) she can tell her basest desires openly, that she does not want to overthrow Jon. It's the same thing that Arya divined but ignored. Sansa didn't need Arya waving a knife before her eyes threatening to cut her face off to know that Arya would be wholly against Sansa supplanting Jon, and would resist it; the knife was gratuitous (and borderline psychopathic) on Arya's part. It's in fact Arya's knife threat that gives LF his opening to push the danger Arya represents to her as motivation to neutralize Arya as a real threat to Sansa's life - not Sansa's ambition to overthrow Jon. She has already said she doesn't want that. So Arya's violent threat has not saved Jon from anything, and only put Jon's kingdom into worse danger of a civil war. And it was Sansa's greater knowledge of her sister that kept Sansa from being tricked by LF - unlike Arya, who was utterly and completely played like a violin by LF.

Quote

I am sure Jon will be plenty happy that Arya had his back while he was gone.

Do you really think Jon would be glad to know that Arya waved a knife before their sister's eyes and threatened to cut off her face and wear it? The sister he trusted enough to give the kingdom over to her keeping? And that she did this because Sansa was just a little too nice to the lords who doubted him? "You don't understand, Jon! They were doubting you and she was friendly to them instead of threatening to cut their heads off! Because she hoped they'd like her and follow her if you didn't come back!"

"Yeah, so? That's exactly what I'd hope would happen if I didn't manage to come back!"

Quote

There was no one else that Jon could entrust the North to was there? I am pretty sure that Jon would have been more comfortable giving the North to his more trustworthy siblings - Arya or Bran. But he thinks they are dead and Sansa is the only Stark and sibling left to him. He could only give it to her and hope that she did right by him.

Not true. The king can give over temporary rule to his Hand. King Bob did it with Ned. There is no rule that the king MUST give the rule to his relative - much less his heir - if he chooses to leave on a temporary errand. Davos was an obvious candidate for Jon to choose - he even has prior experience as a Hand. But Jon chose his sister and heir...because he trusts her not to work against him and to work in the best interests of the North, and because as heir it's best to have the experience in case he doesn't come back.

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