Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[merrick715]

1 hour ago, GraceK said:

A thousand percent. The writers even referenced Littlefinger in regards to Sansas actions this episode, and that’s not a compliment. Littlefinger was responsible ultimately for precipitating the downfall of her family, and that’s why they executed him. He’s a villain, and being shaped by the likes of Cersei and Littlefinger doesn’t speak highly of your character. Arya is seriously the only Stark I can stand right now.

Does spending her formative years with Viserys and Drogo cast aspersions on Dany's character? Sansa has been completely transparent about her desire for the North to remain independent. She sincerely believes that Dany won't be good for the North, in much the same way, Dany believes she's what best for Westeros. Both of these women think they know what's best, and will do what they need to do to achieve their goals. As a Sansa "stan" I can't knock Dany's hustle, and truthfully, I wish there was a way for both women to succeed. I respect Dany far more than I do Jon"I continue to fail upwards" Snow/Stark/Targaeryn.

I get not liking Sansa, I get wanting Dany to win, and I even get wanting Sansa to pay for her "betrayal."What I don't understand is this underlying sense of resentment Sansa gets, for not knowing her place, or respecting her betters. Maybe, her gambit will succeed or maybe it'll fail, but at least she'll go out on her own terms, and not relegated to the background, by the narrative. 

[GraceK]

12 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

get not liking Sansa, I get wanting Dany to win, and I even get wanting Sansa to pay for her "betrayal."What I don't understand is this underlying sense of resentment Sansa gets, for not knowing her place, or respecting her betters. Maybe, her gambit will succeed or maybe it'll fail, but at least she'll go out on her own terms, and not relegated to the background, by the narrative. 

The thing is,  I WANT to like Sansa. I used to a lot. But can you honestly say this  season is doing her justice? Really? She is being irrational in her hatred for Daenerys, because she hasn’t earned it. It’s not about Sansa knowing her place, she has a strong , rightful place as Lady of Winterfell. She may not have a title of queen but she certainly is one in every sense of the word. She was antagonistic from the beginning, and it hasn’t stopped. Dany fought  with everything she had in the battle and lost more than anyone, and Sansa spent this whole episode giving her dirty looks and plotting against her . Why? What has Dany ever done to Sansa? Right now all Dany has done is lose people she loves and cares  for fighting with the north and is gonna take on Cersei as well , the real enemy of Sansa. And Sansa goes out of her way to be mean and petty. It’s bullshit.  I get she wants Independence for the North, but she’s not getting it from Cersei. What does antagonizing Dany, who at this point would LOVE a friendly face in the North, get her? Sansa just looks bad here, but defend her all you want.  She looks jealous and hateful, and can’t even give a reason when Tyrion flat out asks her why she hates Dany. And Jon trusts her with something, a life altering secret, by the Godswood, a sacred place , and she sells him out for her own purposes. Dany has honored every promise she made to Jon, they have no reason to not trust her. So far, it’s  The Starks who are coming across as untrustworthy and deceitful. They were happy to use her dragons and armies and want to kick her out now. It’s gross how the Starks are being portrayed. “ she’s not one of us”. It’s terrible. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by GraceK

[merrick715]

55 minutes ago, GraceK said:

The thing is,  I WANT to like Sansa. I used to a lot. But can you honestly say this  season is doing her justice? Really?

I don't think this season is doing any of the characters justice. It feels like the writers know the broad strokes of Martin's planned endgame, and they filled in the blanks, as only they can. The writers, who gave us dialogue like "You want a good girl, but you need the bad pussy." also just had Dany not noticing Euron's ships near Dragonstone. It was a clear and sunny day. How did she not see those ships in the distance?

Edited May 7, 2019 by merrick715

[Advance35]

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It knocks Dany's court off balance, which is a solid move if Sansa actually regards her as a threat. But again, I hate that they're at odds and I wish the writers would have women in power recognizing and respecting each other instead of turning to backbiting. It demeans everyone and makes it difficult to root for anyone so close to the end.

Would Sansa and Dany getting along be at all realistic?  Their goals are completely counter to each other.  Like all factions of an alliance (in this story, Lannister/Baratheon, Lannister/Tyrell, Tully/Stark/Frey, Stark/Bolton, Bolton/Lannister) the individual alliance had each faction working and maneuvering for their own benefit. "There are no real allies, just common interest."

And Sansa is right about Jon.  He won't stand up to Dany.  God forbid the Northern forces be allowed to rest, a few more of their lives are a small price to pay if it gets Dany her throne a little faster.

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What I don't understand is this underlying sense of resentment Sansa gets, for not knowing her place, or respecting her betters. 

Both in and out of the show, it's like she owes Jon and Dany, blind obedience.  Did you see the way Jon reacted to Sansa's reasonable and honest observation in the war planning session?  Sansa has cowered (LITERALLY) before the Iron Throne before and she doesn't want to do it again, EVER.  Maybe Dany would be a reasonable Queen or friendly to the North (as long as Jon does what she wants), BUT what comes after?  Robert Baratheon was friendly with the North but what came after him was VERY different.

If Sansa has any shot at Northern Independence she is going to need to thread a string threw a needle, she hates Cersei, see's Dany for the threat (to what Sansa wants) she is and is trying to move accordingly but she's got to move fast.  Once Dany's on the throne, it's game over for any shot at Northern Independence.  Jon's revelation was/is the only weapon she has to fight with (now that all power players know, if Sansa doesn't like what your doing, go to Jon Snow, he'll put her in her place).

I agree, I wouldn't hate if these stories had room to breathe (I question how in the world GRRM will get these characters where he wants them in the course of 2 books) but I find the character turns taking place very believable and on some level, expected.

[BooBear]

5 hours ago, Fiver said:

Add me to the list of people who are tired of the Sansa/Dany cattiness.  The two of them have more in common than they even know, why can't they just talk?  Why are they being written this way?  It's so disappointing.  I have to be honest, I really don't like where D&D are going with the female characters, on this show.  Anyone who isn't Arya is mired in stereotypical, petty bullshit, or they're missing (hey, Yara!).  I hate it.

Me too. What annoys me the most about this is that it would seem to reverse everything we know about Sansa learning to play the game of thrones.   She is right back where she was at the start. Making foolish choices out of some idea that she is better than everyone.   Not to mention that she apparently loves Theon now and presumably loves her brother but pays no attention to the idea they both were on Dany's team. Theon sure wasn't thinking with his member.  (only one conclusion - sexism)

But I was even more infuriated last week when Arya seemed not to trust Dany.  Why? For gods sakes, why? Dany showed up with her dragons and saved them all.  Dany has done nothing to make any of them not trust her. Doesn't Arya have some ability to see the motivations of people after her training? " She isn't one of us?" Are you kidding me Arya? You have spent your entire life surviving because of the kindness of strangers.  Dany just made Gendry a lord.  (only one conclusion - sexism) 

Also extremely glaring -- your telling me at the feast there wouldn't have been ONE woman or ONE young girl that wanted to go meet Dany? Run up to her and play with her hair or see what she was like? It was beyond unbelievable that Dany was totally isolated. Even Cersie had a young Sansa come up to her.  In this unbelievable sequence... there were young girls wanting to have sex with the hound but no girl at all wanting to meet the mother of dragons. (one conclusion - sexism)

[anamika]

1 hour ago, Advance35 said:

And Sansa is right about Jon.  He won't stand up to Dany.  God forbid the Northern forces be allowed to rest, a few more of their lives are a small price to pay if it gets Dany her throne a little faster.

Are you saying Sansa knows more about these military matters than Jon, Brienne, Davos, Grey Worm and the Dothraki warrior in that room?

Sansa was hiding in the crypt while Brienne lead the Vale soldiers, Davos and Jon fought with the men, GreyWorm lead the Unsullied, Dothraki charged into the AOTD and Dany gave air support. But Sansa apparently now knows better than all of these guys about how much time Northern soldiers need to recover. Why did Brienne not chime in and agree with her if this was so.... Brienne fought with these men right? Why did Davos not agree with her? They are all advisers. If they truly felt that these men needed rest they would have spoken up. Davos has done so several times before. It's not just Jon standing there.  And it's an insult to Jon to think that he would not be concerned about his men because he loves Dany.

This looked like Sansa complaining just for the sake of complaining. Like she did about the food. Which apparently is no longer a concern, considering she now wants everyone to stay and eat all the food she has.

Or maybe the show is writing her as the military expert considering she knew more about how to make armor than experienced armorers and instructed the commander of the Vale army on defense strategy last season.  Could be why she is walking around in that stupid looking armor outfit with her hands behind her back and giving input on military matters. They don't even need Jon there anymore. Sansa now knows everything there is to know about everything. She's the smartest person Arya has ever met!

Edited May 7, 2019 by anamika

[BooBear]

7 minutes ago, anamika said:

Are you saying Sansa knows more about these military matters than Jon, Brienne, Davos, Grey Worm and the Dothraki warrior in that room?

Sansa was hiding in the crypt while Brienne lead the  soldiers, Davos and Jon fought with the men, GreyWorm legad the Unsullied, Dothraki charged into the AOTD and Dany gave air support. But Sansa apparently now knows better than all of these guys about how much time Northern soldiers need to recover. Why did Brienne not chime in and agree with her if this was so.... Brienne fought with these men right? Why did Davos not agree with her? They are all advisers. If they truly

This looked like Sansa complaining just for the sake of complaining. Like she did about the food. 

Why is Sansa even there? She is not the warden of the north. Jon is?  What say does she have over the troops. Dany rightly took her remarks to be trying to undermine her

[chrisvee]

Sansa was right. They should have taken time to rest and frankly prepare a better plan.

[merrick715]

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Would Sansa and Dany getting along be at all realistic?  Their goals are completely counter to each other.  Like all factions of an alliance (in this story, Lannister/Baratheon, Lannister/Tyrell, Tully/Stark/Frey, Stark/Bolton, Bolton/Lannister) the individual alliance had each faction working and maneuvering for their own benefit. "There are no real allies, just common interest."

And Sansa is right about Jon.  He won't stand up to Dany.  God forbid the Northern forces be allowed to rest, a few more of their lives are a small price to pay if it gets Dany her throne a little faster.

No, it wouldn't be. Sansa and Dany are both ambitious, driven women who believe in two fundamentally different things. Sansa believes in an independent North, and Dany believes in a unified seven kingdoms. Those traits they share are the very things that preventing them from coming to an accord. I still don't understand why Dany won't offer the same agreement to the North, that she did with the Iron Islands. Sansa would have no problem helping to depose Cersei so that Dany could rule. Rhaegal having a hole in his wing should be reason enough for Dany to remain in Winterfell.

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

If Sansa has any shot at Northern Independence she is going to need to thread a string threw a needle, she hates Cersei, see's Dany for the threat (to what Sansa wants) she is and is trying to move accordingly but she's got to move fast.  Once Dany's on the throne, it's game over for any shot at Northern Independence.  Jon's revelation was/is the only weapon she has to fight with (now that all power players know, if Sansa doesn't like what your doing, go to Jon Snow, he'll put her in her place).

Exactly. She needed to move fast if she wanted to achieve her goal of Northern Independence. A goal that she has not hidden from anyone, and that's why I don't get why Jon told her the truth. He knows if, given the choice between Dany, Cersei, or him, Sansa would pick him in a heartbeat.

Sansa didn't send out ravens to all the Houses proclaiming Jon is the rightful heir since he is the son of Lyanna Stark, and Rhaegar Targaeryn. Instead, she put the ball firmly in Tyrion's court. If Tyrion truly believed in Dany, he wouldn't have said a word to anyone and continued serving his Queen. The thing is, he didn't, and thus him telling Varys.  Sansa straight-up told Tyrion, he was afraid of Dany, and Tyrion didn't deny it. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by merrick715

[BooBear]

10 minutes ago, chrisvee said:

Sansa was right. They should have taken time to rest and frankly prepare a better plan.

I was waiting for Dany to say no shit Sherlock. Dany won all of essos she will make those decisions and Dany doesn’t even have the troops right now so they were not her downfall.

[merrick715]

35 minutes ago, anamika said:

Are you saying Sansa knows more about these military matters than Jon, Brienne, Davos, Grey Worm and the Dothraki warrior in that room?

No, but Sansa said she'd ask the officers, who presumably know what they are talking about.

Edited May 7, 2019 by merrick715

[Advance35]

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This looked like Sansa complaining just for the sake of complaining. Like she did about the food. Which apparently is no longer a concern, considering she now wants everyone to stay and eat all the food she has.

Well troop exhaustion is one of the things Qyburn gloated to Tyrion about during their parley.  They fought an intense battle not long ago, their exhausted.  I don't think it's Jenga (or the Westeros Equivalent).

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Why did Brienne not chime in and agree with her if this was so.... Brienne fought with these men right? Why did Davos not agree with her? They are all advisers. If they truly felt that these men needed rest they would have spoken up.

But none of these guys disagreed (out loud) with Sansa either.  Why didn't ANYONE say, the soldiers are ready to march, in "tip top, bright eyed bushy tailed, condition?"  Nope, Jon just said, "Dany you say jump, the North get's froggy."  He's just a "Yes Man" like all of Dany's worshipers.  Everyone dancing to the tune of Dany's self-ordained divine right has cost the "Greatest Army The World Has Ever Seen" another dragon, which will translate to the necessity of MORE man power.

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And it's an insult to Jon to think that he would not be concerned about his men because he loves Dany.

That's what I saw in the episode.  Why didn't he simply say, "The Men are ready to march. no worries Sansa?"  Is he afraid to make Dany angry?  Does he not want her to be near tears again?  Gee and some wonder why Jon marrying Dany wouldn't comfort Sansa in terms of benefit to the North.   

Jon is caught up in his own angst, The Dragon Queen's insecurity and apparently doesn't have the grit or nerve to stand up to HIS chosen Queen and say, "We, maybe, should wait and give the soldiers some time."  

Jon's team Dany and that's fine, it's his choice to make.  Sansa is about the North and it's independence.   She is on her own, Jon has shown her that.

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  Sansa didn't send out ravens to all the Houses proclaiming Jon is the rightful heir since he is the son of Lyanna Stark, and Rhaegar Targaeryn. Instead, she put the ball firmly in Tyrion's court. If Tyrion truly believed in Dany, he wouldn't have said a word to anyone and continued serving his Queen. The thing is, he didn't, and thus him telling Varys.  Sansa straight-up told Tyrion, he was afraid of Dany, and Tyrion didn't deny it. 

I agree.  She planted a seed and is hoping it will grow into a crippling force for Dany's regime.  Everyone knows Cersei has to go but Sansa is hoping infighting, distrust and ambiguity will be enough to destabilize Dany's bid for ultimate power.

If you are going to fight, fight to win.  Sansa doesn't support Dany and Jon is angry she's not following him, Dany, like their a double act Pied Piper. 

[merrick715]

10 minutes ago, BooBear said:

I was waiting for Dany to say no shit Sherlock. Dany won all of essos she will make those decisions and Dany doesn’t even have the troops right now so they were not her downfall.

She won in Essos, in part, because she had three dragons then. It might have been beneficial for Dany to have her two dragons, who are whole and healthy. Rhaegal had a hole in his wing, so maybe it might have a good idea to wait until he healed up. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by merrick715

[Maximum Taco]

1 minute ago, BooBear said:

I was waiting for Dany to say no shit Sherlock. Dany won all of essos she will make those decisions and Dany doesn’t even have the troops right now so they were not her downfall.

Slavers Bay/The Bay of Dragons is not "All of Essos" it is a VERY VERY small part of it. 

Also Dany conquered Astapor and Yunkai and then immediately abandoned them. She never conquered and held more than a city at a time. 

[merrick715]

13 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

I agree.  She planted a seed and is hoping it will grow into a crippling force for Dany's regime.  Everyone knows Cersei has to go but Sansa is hoping infighting, distrust and ambiguity will be enough to destabilize Dany's bid for ultimate power.

Do you think Tyrion is actually afraid of Dany? I don't think Sansa was fishing when she asked that question.

Edited May 7, 2019 by merrick715

[Advance35]

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Do you think Tyrion is actually afraid of Dany? 

I don't know if it's fear or the realization that she's no different then the other players, she just has dragons.  I believe he was once completely confident in her ability to make the world a better place (boasted by her belief in him) but now he's worried that she'll do anything and everything to get to the Throne, like all the other crown chasers.

His whole pitch to Sansa, "Her followers love her."  "She's going to make the world a better place."  He has/had her on a very high pedestal.  There's only one direction to go when you've reached the top.

And I agree with an earlier post, if Dany said the North is granted it's independence and will henceforth be known as an unshakable ally to the Iron Throne, Sansa would be on side,  She might still have opinions, aka the troops need rest.  But she'd be working with Dany, not against her.

But the idea of not having ALL 7 Kingdoms makes Dany jump up and down like Yosemite Sam.

Edited May 7, 2019 by Advance35

[anamika]

45 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

No, but Sansa said she'd ask the officers, who presumably know what they are talking about. 

The officers were standing right there - and they did not back her up and agreed with Dany. Meaning she was wrong.

37 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Slavers Bay/The Bay of Dragons is not "All of Essos" it is a VERY VERY small part of it. 

Also Dany conquered Astapor and Yunkai and then immediately abandoned them. She never conquered and held more than a city at a time. 

Which she regrets deeply and that's why she stays in Meereen. Because she does not want it become another Yunkai. It's called learning from one's mistakes and growing as a character.

Dany had to deal with different factions, an insurgency, negotiate trade deals with other cities, famine, sickness and laws.  Dany had to learn to be a ruler and grow as one through her actual experiences of ruling cities and not magically become the best ruler/military expert like Sansa whose major job till date was managing a few Northern lords and asking them to bring grain to WF.

Edited May 7, 2019 by anamika

[merrick715]

7 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

But the idea of not having ALL 7 Kingdoms makes Dany jump up and down like Yosemite Sam.

Yara offered Dany her fleet, and assistance in helping her take back the Throne, and in return, she asked Dany to support her rule, and free the Iron Islands from the Seven Kingdoms. Dany had no problem with that even though, that agreement made her the ruler of six kingdoms, not seven. Why won't she do the same for the North?

[Advance35]

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Yara offered Dany her fleet, and assistance in helping her take back the Throne, and in return, she asked Dany to support her rule, and free the Iron Islands from the Seven Kingdoms. Dany had no problem with that even though, that agreement made her the ruler of six kingdoms, not seven. Why won't she do the same for the North?

Is that deal still in place?  When Dany was smirking in victory at Jon putting Uppity Sansa back in her place, she referenced all 7 Kingdoms being under the control of their rightful Queen.

Dany wants world domination, nothing less is acceptable to her.

[anamika]

16 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

Why won't she do the same for the North? 

Maybe Sansa can actually ask her for another deal instead of making snide remarks against her and generally being rude and unpleasant towards her? Be the 'super diplomat' she's supposed to be and actually start a conversation with Dany about other options instead of coldly asking 'What about the North' and staring at her?

It's not for Dany to offer up other options. Jon already bend the knee as KITN. If the Lady of WF wants something else, she should first talk to Jon and then try to be diplomatic and nice to Dany, butter her up and try another approach.

You don't see a difference between the way Yara talked to Dany and the way Sansa does?

57 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

But none of these guys disagreed (out loud) with Sansa either.  Why didn't ANYONE say, the soldiers are ready to march, in "tip top, bright eyed bushy tailed, condition?"  Nope, Jon just said, "Dany you say jump, the North get's froggy."  He's just a "Yes Man" like all of Dany's worshipers.  Everyone dancing to the tune of Dany's self-ordained divine right has cost the "Greatest Army The World Has Ever Seen" another dragon, which will translate to the necessity of MORE man power.

None of them disagreed with Sansa, because they did not have to. Jon spoke for them and agreed with Dany. If any of them disagreed with Jon and thought he was being selfish, they would have spoken up - Why did Brienne not jump in and tell Jon that no, those men needed rest? Or Davos?

And again, the idea that Jon does not care about his soldiers unlike Sansa Stark is hilarious. Jon fought with these men. He is going to fight with these men. He knows what it is like to be a soldier.  If he  thinks these soldiers are not able to fight, he is not going to ask them to fight.

Edited May 7, 2019 by anamika

[GodsBeloved]

15 hours ago, glowbug said:

I call BS on Sansa being the one who wants to delay dealing with Cersei. All she did for two seasons was tell Jon how dangerous Cersei is, how they need to deal with the Cersei threat. She is told there is an army of undead soldiers coming for them and her response is "yeah, but Cersei." Now Dany is proposing going after Cersei because she believes the longer they wait the more time Cersei has to amass power and Sansa of all people is suddenly like "No, we need to wait." I think the argument is reasonable but having it come from Sansa isn't. 

Maybe Sansa has learned a little bit. As you acknowledge, the argument was reasonable and I don't find it shocking that Sansa, even here, can be reasonable enough to present a reasonable argument.

[merrick715]

24 minutes ago, anamika said:

The officers were standing right there - and they did not back her up and agreed with Dany. Meaning she was wrong.

58 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

I'm not an expert on military rank, but I think the people in the room would be analogous to what we consider four-star generals. They are at the top, and might not know the exact conditions of the soldiers under their command. Maybe Sansa going to talk to someone who was the Westerosi version of a Lieutenant Colonel. Isn't Jon the only person who agreed with Dany, no one else said anything.

18 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Is that deal still in place?  When Dany was smirking in victory at Jon putting Uppity Sansa back in her place, she referenced all 7 Kingdoms being under the control of their rightful Queen.

I have no idea. According to D&D, Dany forgot about Euron's fleet, which makes no sense, yet here we are.

Edited May 7, 2019 by merrick715

[anamika]

7 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

I'm not an expert in military rank, but I think the people in the room would be analogous to what we consider four-star generals. They are at the top, and might not know the exact conditions of the soldiers under their command. Maybe Sansa going to talk to someone who was the Westerosi version of a Lieutenant Colonel.

So the four star generals standing in front of her don't know anything about troop conditions but the Lady of WF is going to talk to the officers and find out about the soldiers because only she is concerned about this issue. Ok then.

Edited May 7, 2019 by anamika

[Advance35]

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None of them disagreed with Sansa, because they did not have to. Jon spoke for them and agreed with Dany. If any of them disagreed with Jon and thought he was being selfish, they would have spoken up - Why did Brienne not jump in and tell Jon that no, those men needed rest? Or Davos?

That's one interpretation. I disagree.  Jon didn't say the soldiers are fine.  He told Sansa the North does whatever the Queen says.  That's it.  He NEVER said Sansa was wrong.   As a viewer I don't think she was.

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And again, the idea that Jon does not care about his soldiers unlike Sansa Stark is hilarious. Jon fought with these men. He is going to fight with these men. He knows what it is like to be a soldier.  If he does not think these soldiers are not able to fight, he is not going to ask them to fight.

He cares about Dany much more.  And for her, he clearly will march an exhausted force to the Capital to battle Cersei.   Qyburn himself made mention of it, the exhaustion of their forces allowed Cersei to feel even more emboldened.

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Isn't Jon the only person who agreed with Dany, no one else said anything.

My issue is, neither he, nor anyone else, said that Sansa was WRONG.  Jon became irate because Uppity Sansa didn't nod her head and say "Yes your grace." "Captial Idea Your grace." "Your genius is an inspiration to us all, your grace."

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I have no idea. According to D&D, Dany forgot about Euron's fleet, which makes no sense, yet here we are.

That doesn't surprise me.  Everyone is exhausted.  Despite what her highness thinks, rest would have been a nice refresher for everyone.  But Dany pulled her Christmas Story, "I don't care HOW, I want it NOW."  And nobody other then Sansa has enough gumption to push back.

[GodsBeloved]

3 hours ago, BooBear said:

Not to mention that she apparently loves Theon now and presumably loves her brother but pays no attention to the idea they both were on Dany's team. Theon sure wasn't thinking with his member.  (only one conclusion - sexism)

Well, just because Jon is on Daenarys' team doesn't automatically mean Sansa is foolish if she isn't. And Theon, on paper he may have been on Daenarys' team but in reality he was there for Sansa, for Winterfell. He acknowledged Daenarys but he asked Sansa if she would allow him to fight for Winterfell.

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, anamika said:

Which she regrets deeply and that's why she stays in Meereen. Because she does not want it become another Yunkai. It's called learning from one's mistakes and growing as a character.

Dany had to deal with different factions, an insurgency, negotiate trade deals with other cities, famine, sickness and laws.  Dany had to learn to be a ruler and grow as one through her actual experiences of ruling cities and not magically become the best ruler/military expert like Sansa whose major job till date was managing a few Northern lords and asking them to bring grain to WF.

Agreed, Dany took lessons from Meereen (or at least she should have, we'll see if she ever puts those into practice)

I was just saying that it's horribly misleading to say "Yo, she took an entire continent and ruled it. I think she knows what she's doing" cause she didn't. She took a city and ruled a city. And she ruled it poorly. 

By that same argument, Sansa was head of household in the Eyrie after Lysa Arryn passed (while Littlefinger was Lord Regent, it usually falls to the wife, or eldest daughter to run the actual castle,) and she's been holding the North for Jon and preparing for winter ever since he went south. Isn't it fair to think she may have learned a thing or two?

Edited May 7, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[merrick715]

3 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

That doesn't surprise me.  Everyone is exhausted.  Despite what her highness thinks, rest would have been a nice refresher for everyone. 

I could see Dany not counting on the Euron's fleet near Dragonstone. How the hell did she not notice a cluster of boats, as she was flying Drogon? She's in the air, conditions are optimal for flying, and yet she still misses them. Maybe I'm just salty about Rhaegal getting taken out by a dude who looks like the K-Mart version of Jack Sparrow. 

[Advance35]

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Well, just because Jon is on Daenarys' team doesn't automatically mean Sansa is foolish if she isn't. And Theon, on paper he may have been on Daenarys' team but in reality he was there for Sansa, for Winterfell. He acknowledged Daenarys but he asked Sansa if she would allow him to fight for Winterfell.

This is Jon's problem.  He expects Sansa to blindly follow him and that's not who she is.  Not anymore anyway.

I think Sansa views herself as having gone through and suffered a lot, to regain Winterfell/The North and she understandably resents that it was given away.  It's no secret she is not a Dany fan but she makes a reasonable suggestion and Dany is chewing her own face going on about what the North owes her and Jon is 3 seconds away from having her sent to her chambers.

Is it any wonder Sansa has kicked things up a notch by initiating subtle sabatoge?

[anamika]

5 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Jon didn't say the soldiers are fine.  He told Sansa the North does whatever the Queen says.  That's it.  He NEVER said Sansa was wrong.   As a viewer I don't think she was.

He did not have to. It was there on his face. The moment Sansa opened her mouth and started talking, he was like, not this shit again. He decisively shuts her down because he knows what she was trying to do - basically what she's been doing since Dany got there - create issues when there are none.

All their forces were there on that table. Jon has fought with his men. He knows what they are capable of. If they falter, he could lose his life. It's his life on the line, not Sansa's.

6 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

He cares about Dany much more.  And for her, he clearly will march an exhausted force to the Capital to battle Cersei.   Qyburn himself made mention of it, the exhaustion of their forces allowed Cersei to feel even more emboldened.

Jon has done nothing on the show to indicate that he puts his love for Dany above the well being of his people. Jon has never been selfish. That's his sister. In this very episode, despite Dany begging him not to, he tells his family the truth - because he thinks he owes it to them.

And it's Sansa who betrays that trust for her own selfish reasons and sends Northern soldiers into war with this timebomb ticking inside Tyrion's head. She has knowingly send her soldiers into a situation she has triggered - conflict and chaos between the allies. And people think Sansa cares for these soldiers more than Jon? lol.

[merrick715]

9 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

By that same argument, Sansa was head of household in the Eyrie after Lysa Arryn passed (while Littlefinger was Lord Regent, it usually falls to the wife, or eldest daughter to run the actual castle,) and she's been holding the North for Jon and preparing for winter ever since he went south. Isn't it fair to think she may have learned a thing or two?

No, because she's Sansa, and Sansa can never learn anything, at all.

[Advance35]

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He did not have to. It was there on his face. The moment Sansa opened her mouth and started talking, he was like, not this shit again. He decisively shuts her down because he knows what she was trying to do - basically what she's been doing since Dany got there - create issues when there are none.

Well I'd need more then subjective facial muscle interpretation.  All I got from his expression was "Shut up Sansa."  For me to feel like Sansa was wrong, I'd need someone to have said why.  For some, Sansa's wrong if she says the sky is blue and that's fine but for me, nope.

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Jon has done nothing on the show to indicate that he puts his love for Dany above the well being of his people. Jon has never been selfish. That's his sister. In this very episode, despite Dany begging him not to, he tells his family the truth - because he thinks he owes it to them.

Around and around we go.  The soldiers are exhausted, Sansa knows it, Jon knows it, Qyburn knows it, Cersei knows it, but Jon doesn't care because Dany doesn't feel popular and wants the Iron Throne now.  He shut Sansa up when Dany started to snarl.  But no need to continue the debate, you won't change my mind and I won't change yours and everything is still everything.

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No, because she's Sansa, and Sansa can never learn anything, at all.

Yep.  Because she doesn't throw herself before Dany chanting prayers of supplication/worship, she's an evil, conniving, dark-hearted banshee spit out of the ninth circle of hell.

[anamika]

11 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

By that same argument, Sansa was head of household in the Eyrie after Lysa Arryn passed (while Littlefinger was Lord Regent, it usually falls to the wife, or eldest daughter to run the actual castle,) and she's been holding the North for Jon and preparing for winter ever since he went south. Isn't it fair to think she may have learned a thing or two?

Sansa was managing the maids in the Vale in the books. On the show, in the North she got manipulated by LF into fighting with her sister, fostered resentment against Jon because he was gone south and asked the Northern lords to bring grain to WF. Sorry, but that is not the equivalent of actually ruling a kingdom.

And again the issue is that show Sansa is now magically good at everything. She is suddenly an expert in military matters. She is a political genius. Isaac called her a super diplomat. Sansa became all these things without actually doing, making mistakes and learning like Dany. Dany had to take the slow path of 7 seasons and 5 books.  As Sansa said in this episode, all she had to do was get raped by Ramsay and she is suddenly no longer a little bird but an expert in all matters and the smartest person in Westeros

[merrick715]

4 minutes ago, anamika said:

The moment Sansa opened her mouth and started talking, he was like, not this shit again. He decisively shuts her down because he knows what she was trying to do - basically what she's been doing since Dany got there - create issues when there are none.

Did she create the hole in Rhaegal's wing? Rhaegal's injury should have been enough to have Dany slow her roll. Unfortunately, it wasn't, and she's down another dragon. Her baby was killed by a dude, who looks like a discount Joshua Jackson, that happens to cosplay as Jack Sparrow on the weekends.

[anamika]

8 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

All I got from his expression was "Shut up Sansa."  For me to feel like Sansa was wrong, I'd need someone to have said why. 

Jon did. That's why he's like 'shut up Sansa'. And why none of the other military heads said nothing. Davos was probably rolling his eyes in a corner when she opened her mouth.

8 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Around and around we go.  The soldiers are exhausted, Sansa knows it, Jon knows it, Qyburn knows it, Cersei knows it,

Wait how do Qyburn and Cersei know that the Northern soldiers are not rested? Are they monitoring from down south? Do they have any opinions on the status of the Unsullied? 

And what do you think of Sansa sending the soldiers she cares so much about into battle after letting Tyrion in on Jon's parentage to create rifts and more conflicts among allies? Has she not made the situation even more dangerous for them now?

Edited May 7, 2019 by anamika

[Bryce Lynch]

7 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Well I'd need more then subjective facial muscle interpretation.  All I got from his expression was "Shut up Sansa."  For me to feel like Sansa was wrong, I'd need someone to have said why.  For some, Sansa's wrong if she says the sky is blue and that's fine but for me, nope.

Around and around we go.  The soldiers are exhausted, Sansa knows it, Jon knows it, Qyburn knows it, Cersei knows it, but Jon doesn't care because Dany doesn't feel popular and wants the Iron Throne now.  He shut Sansa up when Dany started to snarl.  But no need to continue the debate, you won't change my mind and I won't change yours and everything is still everything.

Yep.  Because she doesn't throw herself before Dany chanting prayers of supplication/worship, she's an evil, conniving, dark-hearted banshee spit out of the ninth circle of hell.

Sansa knows nothing.  She brought up the nonsense about the troops being exhausted, after fewer than 12 hours of fighting, some days earlier.  But, she then admitted she hadn't consulted with any of the officers about this alleged fatigue.  She made it up to feel important and undermine Daenerys.   

Five military commanders were in the room and not one of them chimed in to agree that the men were tired.  Ser Davos most certainly would have spoken up, if he agreed. So would Jon.  

Nobody seemed too exhausted at the celebration party.   

[merrick715]

18 minutes ago, anamika said:

Jon has done nothing on the show to indicate that he puts his love for Dany above the well being of his people.

 Has Jon ever told Dany he loves her? Last episode, Dany was the one telling Jon she loved him, and he said nothing.

[Advance35]

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Wait how do Qyburn and Cersei know that the Northern soldiers are not rested? Are they monitoring from down south? Do they have any opinions on the status of the Unsullied? 

A question for the writers perhaps?  It was dialogue in the episode.  He told Tyrion, his soldiers are exhausted while The Queens are prime and battle ready.  Little birds or deductive reasoning? Who knows.

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Jon did. That's why he's like 'shut up Sansa'. And why none of the other military heads said nothing. Davos was probably rolling his eyes in a corner when she opened her mouth.

No I think Jon feels Sansa should be seen but not heard.  He never said she was wrong so it's subjective.  Maybe we should have seen Davos rolling his eyes, then I could make the leap that Sansa was wrong and the troops don't need rest.

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Did she create the hole in Rhaegal's wing? Rhaegal's injury should have been enough to have Dany slow her roll. Unfortunately, it wasn't, and she's down another dragon. 

Shame she doesn't have advisers that will tell her things she doesn't want to hear.

[GodsBeloved]

22 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Around and around we go.  The soldiers are exhausted, Sansa knows it, Jon knows it, Qyburn knows it, Cersei knows it, but Jon doesn't care because Dany doesn't feel popular and wants the Iron Throne now.  He shut Sansa up when Dany started to snarl.  But no need to continue the debate, you won't change my mind and I won't change yours and everything is still everything.

On rewatch, I need to pay attention to Qyburn and Tyrion. I missed his comment about the soilders but I am SO tickled that Qyburn brings up the same point Sansa did LOL

Edited May 7, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Maximum Taco]

16 minutes ago, anamika said:

Sansa was managing the maids in the Vale in the books. On the show, in the North she got manipulated by LF into fighting with her sister, fostered resentment against Jon because he was gone south and asked the Northern lords to bring grain to WF. Sorry, but that is not the equivalent of actually ruling a kingdom.

That is ruling a Kingdom. Making sure the small folk make it to Wintertown before the snows grow deep. Making sure that there is enough food when they do get there. Placating your subject lords that yes, you need their grain, but you will return it if it's not used, and you will offer the protection of your castle and your other bannermen as recompense. Making sure that your allies feel like you respect them, and don't just view them as disposable. Keeping your allies together when your own King heads south against everyone's wishes. Holding the ones you can together when he summarily bends the knee to a Queen no one has even seen. 

It's not as glamorous as putting down rebellion, and freeing slaves. But it's the necessary work of ruling. 

Dany has never really successfully ruled anything, she failed at ruling Meereen and then burned everything down. Did she learn lessons? I certainly hope so, but there's no proof so far she has.

Conversely, Sansa left the Eyrie having pretty much sworn them entirely to her allegiance. Not through force or fear, but through negotiation and diplomacy. If Dany sends word across the Narrow Sea will Meereen be there to welcome and obey her? I'm unsure. 

Edited May 7, 2019 by Maximum Taco

[Advance35]

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Sansa knows nothing.  She brought up the nonsense about the troops being exhausted, after fewer than 12 hours of fighting, some days earlier.  But, she then admitted she hadn't consulted with any of the officers about this alleged fatigue.  She made it up to feel important and undermine Daenerys.   

Yes. Exhaustion and fatigue are things she completely made up.  No such thing.  And here I thought Sansa gave up believing in Fairy Tales and Songs.  I wonder if Qyburn and Sansa were trained by the same Septa, since Qyburn himself quoted Dany's forces being fatigued.

Whatever Sansa's motivation, it was a real concern.  Just because you don't like the source doesn't mean the information isn't worth considering.  Unless of course the one that doesn't like you is Mother of Draogons and 4 million other titles.

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On rewatch, I need to pay attention to Qyburn and Tyrion. I missed his comment about the soilders but I am SO tickled that Qyburn brings up that same point Sansa did LOL

Yeppers. But you know, Sansa should just go to her chambers and brush her hair all day.

[GodsBeloved]

53 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Yep.  Because she doesn't throw herself before Dany chanting prayers of supplication/worship, she's an evil, conniving, dark-hearted banshee spit out of the ninth circle of hell.

Don't do my girl like that.

One of the things that has endeared Sansa to me is that she survived. I mean she was what, 12/13 when those demented Lannisters had her. Then she was turned over to Ramsey and yet she survived.

Yep, faults and all, if nobody else is in her corner I will be.

Edited May 7, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

That is ruling a Kingdom. Making sure the small folk make it to Wintertown before the snows grow deep. Making sure that there is enough food when they do get there. Placating your subject lords that yes, you need their grain, but you will return it if it's not used, and you will offer the protection of your castle and your other bannermen as recompense. Making sure that your allies feel like you respect them, and don't just view them as disposable. Keeping your allies together when your own King heads south against everyone's wishes. 

It's not as glamorous as putting down rebellion, and freeing slaves. But it's the necessary work of ruling. 

Dany has never really successfully ruled anything, she failed at ruling Meereen and then burned everything down. Did she learn lessons? I certainly hope so, but there's no proof so far she has.

That is being a steward, not a ruler.  The people of the North would never have done what Sansa said, if she was not making requests and demands in under Jon's authority.  

[merrick715]

10 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

No I think Jon feels Sansa should be seen but not heard. 

He wants Sansa to speak up when it suits him, like in 8x01 

Edited May 7, 2019 by merrick715

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Yes. Exhaustion and fatigue are things she completely made up.  No such thing.  And here I thought Sansa gave up believing in Fairy Tales and Songs.  I wonder if Qyburn and Sansa were trained by the same Septa, since Qyburn himself quoted Dany's forces being fatigued.

Whatever Sansa's motivation, it was a real concern.  Just because you don't like the source doesn't mean the information isn't worth considering.  Unless of course the one that doesn't like you is Mother of Draogons and 4 million other titles.

Yeppers. But you know, Sansa should just go to her chambers and brush her hair all day.

a) Qyburn could have just been talking trash to demorlize Tyrion.

b) Her troops had been through a devastating defeat at sea and had to swim to shore just before Tyrion and Qyburn spoke.  That is what would have had them exhausted.   

[Drogo]

Just now, Advance35 said:

Despite what her highness thinks, rest would have been a nice refresher for everyone.  But Dany pulled her Christmas Story, "I don't care HOW, I want it NOW."  And nobody other then Sansa has enough gumption to push back.

Is that what she did?  I thought I heard her say she had postponed her attack on KL for long enough to fight the Battle of Winterfell, and that the longer she leaves her enemies alone the stronger they become, which... is true. 

If Sansa really had any interest in being fucking helpful, she should have shared with Jon and Daenerys her certainty that "Cersei would most definitely NOT be coming to help them" immediately.  Instead of replying with a raven right away to say "Don't trust that bitch!" she waited until several weeks later when they were already back at Winterfell and even then, didn't go to them- instead gloating to Tyrion about what a stupid sucker he was to believe her.  It's only when Jaime arrives some time afterward that he confirms Cersei isn't coming. 

Had Daenerys struck at KL immediately, the Capitol would have been far less prepared and she would've had twice as many dragons and troops to bring back for the Battle of Winterfell as she does now- plus the remainder of the Lannister Army and Greyjoy fleet.  The people of KL wouldn't have had time to absorb Qyburn's propaganda and there wouldn't be a ballista mounted on every ship and wall as far as Cersei can see.

And certainly had she done that (taken the IT prior to the Battle of Winterfell), Sansa wouldn't recommend the Targ Army sit out the Battle of Winterfell for some R&R.   

[Maximum Taco]

1 minute ago, Bryce Lynch said:

That is being a steward, not a ruler.  The people of the North would never have done what Sansa said, if she was not making requests and demands in under Jon's authority.  

Those are semantics. 

When Tywin Lannister was Hand of the King for Aerys, who truly ruled the realm? 

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, merrick715 said:

He wants Sansa to speak up when it suits him like in 8x01 

He wants Sansa to know her damn place and show some freaking respect to her Lord and her Queen.  Robb didn't take that sort of crap from Great Jon Umber.  Maybe, Jon should have had Ghost bite off Sansa's fingers when she showed such public disrespect.   

Catelyn was 1,000 times better than Sansa, but she also caused havoc and division by overstepping her bounds.   Sansa is jeopardizing the North with her rebellion and scheming.   

Edited May 7, 2019 by Bryce Lynch

[merrick715]

2 minutes ago, Drogo said:

If Sansa really had any interest in being fucking helpful, she should have shared with Jon and Daenerys her certainty that "Cersei would most definitely NOT be coming to help them" immediately.

Where was she supposed to send this raven? Jon was on a boat. Before Jon even left for Dragonstone, Sansa was very clear about who Cersei.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

Those are semantics. 

When Tywin Lannister was Hand of the King for Aerys, who truly ruled the realm? 

I'm not really familiar with that period, by Tywin was always a puppet master, who doesn't really bother to try too hard to hide the strings.   He certainly ruled when Joffrey was King.  Sansa did a nice job of grocery shopping for the North.   

[anamika]

22 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

He told Tyrion, his soldiers are exhausted while The Queens are prime and battle ready.  Little birds or deductive reasoning? Who knows. 

Of course the enemy is going to say - you guys are all tired and defeated and we are going to beat you all easily suckas! You expect differently?

And are these soldiers weary? I would expect any soldier to be weary, not so much that they are unable to fight.

Cersei is moving in with her armies. They have reached Dragonstone. Meanwhile Dany's armies are half gone and the rest battle weary after helping save the North and Sansa's ungrateful ass. They had to move with the fighting men they had.

22 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

He never said she was wrong so it's subjective.

He did not have to. That was implied in his expression. He knew she was just stirring up trouble.

21 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

That is ruling a Kingdom. Making sure the small folk make it to Wintertown before the snows grow deep. Making sure that there is enough food when they do get there. Placating your subject lords that yes, you need their grain, but you will return it if it's not used, and you will offer the protection of your castle and your other bannermen as recompense. Making sure that your allies feel like you respect them, and don't just view them as disposable. Keeping your allies together when your own King heads south against everyone's wishes. 

That is ruling over a holdfast. Did she travel outside WF to the rest of the North to see how things were? Did she send reinforcements to the wall? Did she make trade deals with other kingdoms? Has she commanded battle? Has she negotiated with other rulers? That is ruling. Not asking a few Northern lords to bring grain to WF - which she did not even do directly. We saw her give orders to LF to talk to the lords and do this.

Most of the Northern lords did not even answer her call to banner and stayed home. The only two who came were Alys - who Jon forgave and Lyanna. 

As for placating the lords. lol. That scene in there was about her not putting down the disloyalty of some of the Northern lords to Jon. As usual she was busy backstabbing Jon while he was away getting them allies.

Edited May 7, 2019 by anamika