Sansa Stark: A Direwolf In Sheep's Clothing?

[GrailKing]

I think Sansa is going to get Lady Stoneheart's vengeance storyline.

I think it'll be a combo of more then 1 or 2 people, she's not

going to the RL that be Brienne and Pod and Arya

leaving the North unless they put her back with LF which I hope they don't unless it's to find out he betrayed her father.

I think she stays North, to get other houses to fight for her and Jon, the only LSH role for her is really killing Ramsey and LF, Roose will most likely die by Ramsey's hands.

[Hecate7]

I think Sansa is going to get Lady Stoneheart's vengeance storyline.

 

I hope not. I don't want to see her hang Pod and Brienne. I think that would be very stupid of her. I don't want to see her hang Jaime, either. He sent Brienne out with his sword and armor. I think Sansa's got more interesting things to do than just mindlessly hang everyone she meets who isn't a Stark loyalist.

[GrailKing]

On 4/26/2016 at 3:10 AM, Hecate7 said:

 

I hope not. I don't want to see her hang Pod and Brienne. I think that would be very stupid of her. I don't want to see her hang Jaime, either. He sent Brienne out with his sword and armor. I think Sansa's got more interesting things to do than just mindlessly hang everyone she meets who isn't a Stark loyalist.

Not really her nature, she shows compassion for Lancel, even though he's a Lannister, she may hate them but I think she keeps her hate to the ones who actually did harm to her family.

Hope she finds out about LF and make his death glorious.

[Hecate7]

5 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Not really her nature, she shows compassion for Lancel, even though he's a Lannister, she may hate them but I think she keeps her hate to the ones who actually did harm to her family.

 

  Reveal hidden contents

Hope she finds out about LF and make his death glorious.

When did she show compassion for Lancel? I don't think they ever even met or spoke. But yes, I agree.

Spoiler

Book Sansa, however, does reflect that when she has (presumably Tyrion's) child, she will teach him to hate ALL Lannisters.

She's not going to run into very many people who did actual harm to her family, running around with Brienne and Pod, I don't think.

Edited May 10, 2016 by Hecate7

[GrailKing]

5 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

When did she show compassion for Lancel? I don't think they ever even met or spoke. But yes, I agree. Book Sansa, however, does reflect that when she has (presumably Tyrion's) child, she will teach him to hate ALL Lannisters. She's not going to run into very many people who did actual harm to her family, running around with Brienne and Pod, I don't think.

Battle of Blackwater, Lancel comes up to giver her an update, she ask for Joffry, Lancel protest and cersei whacks him in his wound.

 

 

Sansa has his wounds tended to in book

This is one reason why people think Sansa is the YMBQ, she acted more like a Queen then Cersei.

Edited May 10, 2016 by GrailKing

[Oscirus]

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Not really her nature, she shows compassion for Lancel, even though he's a Lannister, she may hate them but I think she keeps her hate to the ones who actually did harm to her family.

Sansa also told Tyrion that she'd be praying for his death. She can be pretty venomous when she wants. It comes down to the person that she's dealing with.

[SeanC]

50 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

Sansa also told Tyrion that she'd be praying for his death.

That was another change in the show; in the books she prayed for him to survive (she prayed for everybody on both sides of the battle except Joffrey, Cersei, Payne, etc.).

[Advance35]

I thought Episode 4 of season six was a wonderful showing for the Sansa character.   It was a great relief to see her make it to the castle in time, I was worried she would miss Jon.

And it's wonderful to see her establish a new dynamic with yet another character in this story.  I feel like the Sansa character has always been one of the best characters in that regard.  Her relationship or history with pretty much every character that really matters in this story.  I thought she might try to rule herself but I think it's smart of her to build Jon up as warden on the North.  His connection to the Stark bloodline and his military experience gives him a very good platform.

More then the political aspects however, I enjoyed the interaction between Jon and Sansa on a personal level.  I like that even though she's evolved a great deal, Sansa still comes off like a princess to me.  In some ways, even more so than Cersei or even Margaery.  There's just something so gentile about the character.   She plays well against Jon's world weariness and I thought the two characters have a wonderful chemistry opposite each other.

Can't wait to see what happens next.

[SeanC]

The transition from the understandably traumatized Sansa of the first two episodes was kind of sudden, but you could tell Sophie was enjoying the character's new development.

[GrailKing]

3 hours ago, SeanC said:

The transition from the understandably traumatized Sansa of the first two episodes was kind of sudden, but you could tell Sophie was enjoying the character's new development.

Maybe now she'll want her character to actually survive.

[Oscirus]

6 hours ago, SeanC said:

The transition from the understandably traumatized Sansa of the first two episodes was kind of sudden, but you could tell Sophie was enjoying the character's new development.

I think it had more to do with the fact that she finally felt safe enough to let her real attitude come through.

The interesting thing in the upcoming weeks is to see if she's as good of a negotiator as her mother.

[Funzlerks]

Maybe Jon will be better at actually sharing relevant info with Sansa.  

 

It was so exciting to see Sansa finally show her true self without fear.  It has been like a decade for me.  I am sure it will be very different in the books but I thoroughly enjoyed her meeting with Jon Snow and her complete commitment to retaking Winterfell for her family and The North.

[Advance35]

Interesting episode for Sansa.  Though I have my issues with her ending her association with LF (whom seemed oddly effected by the parting) it was her scene and dealings with Jon, Davos, Melissandre and Edd that interested me.

Apparently she took a lot of Kings Landing with her because Although she is happy to see Jon and is allied with him, I question just how much she trust him.  I think she trust him more then anyone else BUT I now question whether Sansa is capable of truly trusting anyone.  No matter who they are.   The last prominent family member she ran into tried to murder her by throwing her through a moon door.  Whereas Jon seems pretty guileless where Sansa is concerned, this episode through her interactions with him into a whole new light.   Even her making him a cloak, seems more strategic now, though Jon was clearly touched by the gift.   While The Vale's soldiers would come in handy, Sansa is probably hesitant over how much influence LF has among their forces.

Not sure how I feel about the new dress.

[SeanC]

47 minutes ago, Advance35 said:

Apparently she took a lot of Kings Landing with her because Although she is happy to see Jon and is allied with him, I question just how much she trust him.  I think she trust him more then anyone else BUT I now question whether Sansa is capable of truly trusting anyone.  No matter who they are.   

Yeah, that was interesting.  When the spoilers leaked I saw people talking about how she was manipulating Jon, but I don't think she's really at that stage yet.  When Brienne asked her why she lied, she seemed honestly unsure about it, and her prior spiel about trusting him had the air of trying to convince herself as much as anyone else.  She'd probably like to trust him, but Littlefinger's reminder is gnawing at her, given her past experience.

Incidentally, it's too bad Brienne is being sent off for some version of her book plot, because I liked the dynamic between her and Sansa this episode.

Edited May 23, 2016 by SeanC

[Eyes High]

23 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Yeah, that was interesting.  When the spoilers leaked I saw people talking about how she was manipulating Jon, but I don't think she's really at that stage yet.  When Brienne asked her why she lied, she seemed honestly unsure about it, and her prior spiel about trusting him had the air of trying to convince herself as much as anyone else.  She'd probably like to trust him, but Littlefinger's reminder is gnawing at her, given her past experience.

Incidentally, it's too bad Brienne is being sent off for some version of her book plot, because I liked the dynamic between her and Sansa this episode.

I really liked Brienne and Sansa's dynamic, especially Brienne's "Permission to tear this motherfucker in two, my lady?"-level glare at LF.

I don't think Sansa really has much self-awareness at this point; she's blind not only to her own motivations but also as to how she's coming off. She missed Edd and Jon's discomfort at her casually pointing out that Jon lacks the Stark name and comparing him to Ramsay (which seems a little out of character for someone versed in social niceties and otherwise disposed to be compassionate and sensitive), and she missed Brienne's quiet discomfort with her easy lie in the same conversation. Littlefinger, someone who also lies easily to people who trust him, has influenced her far more than she would like to admit, and as her actions indicate this episode, he has a far stronger hold on her than she consciously grasps.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Eyes High

[Advance35]

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Incidentally, it's too bad Brienne is being sent off for some version of her book plot, because I liked the dynamic between her and Sansa this episode.

So did I surprisingly.  It's interesting to see Brienne in this capacity.  She served the same function for both Renly and Catelyn but with Sansa, she just screams chaperone in such a different way.  Maybe it's Sansa's age.   I also don't remember her questioning either of their decisions.  Not even when Catelyn released Jaimie, but she did question Sansa's lying to Jon and her decision to remain without a personal guard of her own.

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I don't think Sansa really has much self-awareness at this point; she's blind not only to her own motivations but also as to how she's coming off. She missed Edd and Jon's discomfort at her casually pointing out that Jon lacks the Stark name and comparing him to Ramsay (which seems a little out of character for someone versed in social niceties and otherwise disposed to be compassionate and sensitive), and she missed Brienne's quiet discomfort with her easy lie in the same conversation.

I actually liked that aspect.  ROME wasn't built in a day.  She may have clever ideas but her implementation is FAR from flawless.  Maybe she was on a high from telling off LF but I noticed, not just her slight faux  pas in terms of Jon but her lack interest in the White Walker threat (she seemed far more concerned with reclaiming WF), her lack of mean's to verify LF's findings but still taking it as a fact, assuming the Tully's will automatically be on her side (I'm willing to give her leeway there) and the self-satisfied look on her face when she managed to turn the room to the course of action she wanted.

I think overconfidence is something every schemer in this story has fallen prey too but considering how precarious things are, Sansa should definitely try to be more careful.   Assuming Sansa survives this story, there is definitely room for her to grow and continue to evolve.

The "Inside the Episode" commentary is also very interesting on Sansa this episode.   It's clear the writers are laying seeds for what's ahead where she's concerned.   She didn't have LF killed by Brienne because she isn't sure LF won't be of use to her down the line.   She's very much a creature of Kings Landing.   And like most of the Highborn in this story, she underestimates LF.

Edited May 23, 2016 by Advance35
Addition

[Funzlerks]

No matter what else happens, I really have only a couple of wishes for the ending and one is that Brienne and Sansa are best friends forever and ever.  So, of course Brienne has to immediately leave, taking with her all of her sound advice and insight.

[Advance35]

Well that was definitely an interesting episode for Sansa.  I continue to love the push/pull dynamic between Jon and Sansa.  Sansa wants to trust Jon and I think she does, as much as she's capable of trusting anyone anymore but at the same time, I don't think Sansa will ever  again, completely let anyone in.  When Jon told her he would never let Ramsay touch her again and that he would protect her (very well acted by KH) Sansa didn't believe him and I don't think she cared about the sentiment.   I think Jon mean't what he said from the bottom of his soul but Sansa want's certain results and soul true speeches just don't mean as much as they once did.   Jon has faced things Sansa couldn't imagine but while he learned that heroism and friendship can come from surprising places (Tormund, Mance, Grenn, Sam and Pyp) Sansa learned that villainy can and does come from everywhere in varying degrees (Tywin, Cersei, Joffrey, Olenna, Lyssa, Ramsay and Petyr).

I do think Sansa has been manipulating Jon, not to a bad end but because she took his temperature and realized he wasn't enthused about Winterfell.  He's a battle weary warrior and that won't do her any good.  When Ramsay's letter came, using Rickons imprisonment as a rallying point for Jon was automatic.  I think she knew then that Rickon was dead meat and realized there was no way for her to change that, so she moved forward.   There's a certain inner coldness that Jon seems' to be trying to break through with regards to Sansa and there may be no breaking through it after all  she's been through.

I also notice Sansa has had a pronounced appetite for revenge.  Her smile in Season 4 when Robyn Arryn talked about throwing their enemies through the  moon door.   And tonight showed that the former Pristine Princess does not flinch at ugly, bloody revenge.  That moment was as telling as when Cersei walked over all of the corpses during Season 4, when The Mountain was training for Tyrion's trial by combat.

I'm going to miss ST and IR working together.  I thought they had great character chemistry and their final scene was such a live wire one.  This girl has one of the best arcs on the show IMO.

[Morrigan2575]

i thought it was really interesting that right after the dogs first attacked Sansa immediately went to move away (as if she didn't/couldn't watch the horror unfold). Then she immediately came back and watched for a bit.  That coupled with her smile/smirk as she walked away, listening to Ramsey get ripped apart show's there's a darkness to her.

[nksarmi]

4 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

i thought it was really interesting that right after the dogs first attacked Sansa immediately went to move away (as if she didn't/couldn't watch the horror unfold). Then she immediately came back and watched for a bit.  That coupled with her smile/smirk as she walked away, listening to Ramsey get ripped apart show's there's a darkness to her.

After what he did to her, there would be. But she doesn't hold a candle to Dany who watched the khals burn and just soaked in the worship of the Dorthraki. On the show, without Tyrion, Dany would easily go full-on Mad Queen. Dany is all fire and Tyrion tempers her. Perhaps Jon and Sansa will end up in a similar dynamic where Sansa is cold as ice, but Jon warms her.

[jjjmoss]

By my count, Sansa dialogue:
S6 The Door 505
S4 Mountain and the Viper 425
S6 Book of the Stranger 300
S6 Battle of the Bastards around 300
S2 Blackwater 275

S1 Pointy End 248
S4 First of His Name 223
S4 Mockingbird 202

S6 looks quite great for her. It helps that she's not a prisoner of awful people so she doesn't have to clam up so much of the time for fear of reprisal. I think that for each of her weddings she clocks in at under 100 words.

Edited June 20, 2016 by jjjmoss

[Chris24601]

22 hours ago, Advance35 said:

There's a certain inner coldness that Jon seems' to be trying to break through with regards to Sansa and there may be no breaking through it after all  she's been through.

I think her narrative arc would be pretty bleak (and basically done) if no one could ever break through the cold though. Learning to trust again now that she's around people like Jon and Brienne and Pod and Davos and Tormund and not all the monsters so she can get to that promised bittersweet ending sounds like just the right arc for her to finish out the last two seasons.

Actually, presuming that Team Stark will be based out of Winterfell with the main threat being the White Walkers advancing from the north, I'd say there's a very good chance for Sansa to end up at the heart of efforts where people are pulling together and trusting in each other for the common good. Empathy for men, women and children who've lost everything fleeing from the Army of the Dead and are streaming to Winterfell for protection could go a long way towards her recovery.

[Morrigan2575]

1 hour ago, Chris24601 said:

Actually, presuming that Team Stark will be based out of Winterfell with the main threat being the White Walkers advancing from the north, I'd say there's a very good chance for Sansa to end up at the heart of efforts where people are pulling together and trusting in each other for the common good. Empathy for men, women and children who've lost everything fleeing from the Army of the Dead and are streaming to Winterfell for protection could go a long way towards her recovery.

Reminds me of the S2 story where the women are all huddled in hiding during Stannis' attack. Sansa is keeping the women/children's spirits up, praying, etc while Cersei is getting drunk and nasty.  

[jjjmoss]

We also have to consider how her ending will be more informed by what her storyline is in the books than what it is on the show.

It was the marriage to Ramsay that really broke her spirit (temporarily) and ability to trust anyone or life at all. Right now in the books, she's getting better at lying but her mind still isn't that dark of a place to explore. 

[Advance35]

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i thought it was really interesting that right after the dogs first attacked Sansa immediately went to move away (as if she didn't/couldn't watch the horror unfold). Then she immediately came back and watched for a bit.  That coupled with her smile/smirk as she walked away, listening to Ramsey get ripped apart show's there's a darkness to her.

I'm still not sure where I fit in on this much debated school of thought.  At first I was all "Yay" but there is now SO MUCH bouncing around online about what the whole thing said about Sansa and her inner life.  I do think it was Cersei Lannister levels of vicious (not that that's a bad thing) and I do think the act displays a cold-heartedness she was capable of before Ramsay but at the same time I think it can only help her chances of surviving in her world.   She's reached a place psychologically and emotionally where she is willing and ready to give as good as she gets in terms of ruthlessness and cruelty.
 

Quote

 

I think her narrative arc would be pretty bleak (and basically done) if no one could ever break through the cold though. Learning to trust again now that she's around people like Jon and Brienne and Pod and Davos and Tormund and not all the monsters so she can get to that promised bittersweet ending sounds like just the right arc for her to finish out the last two seasons.

Actually, presuming that Team Stark will be based out of Winterfell with the main threat being the White Walkers advancing from the north, I'd say there's a very good chance for Sansa to end up at the heart of efforts where people are pulling together and trusting in each other for the common good. Empathy for men, women and children who've lost everything fleeing from the Army of the Dead and are streaming to Winterfell for protection could go a long way towards her recovery.

 

Very good points.  But will she have time to learn to open herself up again?   She hasn't thus far and with good  reason since she and Jon were trying to regain control of Winterfell BUT in terms of the White Walkers, The North can't do it alone.    Jon is (I assume) going to be heading south in an effort to get more aide in dealing with the upcoming apocalypse.   Will he leave Sansa in Winterfell, closer to the threat or will she be coming South with him to talk to some of the other Great Houses?   And if so, there is no way she is  going to be able to heal while dealing with her former enemies in the arena she was tortured in.  

I guess I'm trying to say that I don't see Sansa's story quieting down.  I think she is still going to be very much involved in the action of the story going forward.  Not sword fighting of course but in terms of plot twist and the like.

So many questions.

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Very good points.  But will she have time to learn to open herself up again?   She hasn't thus far and with good  reason since she and Jon were trying to regain control of Winterfell BUT in terms of the White Walkers, The North can't do it alone. Jon is (I assume) going to be heading south in an effort to get more aide in dealing with the upcoming apocalypse.   Will he leave Sansa in Winterfell, closer to the threat or will she be coming South with him to talk to some of the other Great Houses?   And if so, there is no way she is  going to be able to heal while dealing with her former enemies in the arena she was tortured in.  

I guess I'm trying to say that I don't see Sansa's story quieting down.  I think she is still going to be very much involved in the action of the story going forward.  Not sword fighting of course but in terms of plot twist and the like.

I don't think it has to quiet down for her to open herself up again... it just needs to be a different type of noise. There's a world of difference between the noise of people struggling and sacrificing FOR each other and the noise of people plotting and scheming AGAINST each other.

What Sansa needs to open up is for a bit of faith in humanity to be restored. Due to where she's been she's mostly seen humanity at its worst, but being part of a group struggling for common purpose against an outside threat is one of the places that quite often brings out the best in people.

As to where will Jon and Sansa be going forward, I really think episode four's "Where will WE go?" element was a narrative cue that from here forward in the series Jon and Sansa will remain in each other's company (even if they fight about things from time to time). If Jon goes south then Sansa will go with him. If he stays at Winterfell then Sansa will be at Winterfell as well. I don't think the Wall will still be standing for long so I don't see any plan by Jon to head back to Castle Black lasting long enough for them to be separated that way either (I think the final stand will have to be at Winterfell. The narrative basically demands it).

One aspect of Jon and Sansa remaining in each other's company is that I think we're long past the point of scatterings in the story. These final two seasons will be the coming together of the protagonists. If they split off at all it will be to gather others into the fold. Bran is coming south from beyond the Wall. If the Wall comes down any Nightwatch survivors (Edd hopefully) will go south as well. Brienne and Pod are on their way back from the Riverlands. Arya will eventually head to Winterfell. The Hound and the Brotherhood are headed North (perhaps Arya will accompany them).

The other reason I think they'll stay in proximity to each other is that I do think they've been laying groundwork for a Jon/Sansa endgame (I think Yara basically established to Dany all the problems for her ability to rule that marrying a Westerosi lord, particularly a high lord/king would cause... I think Dany will be an Elizabeth I figure with no husband to potentially undermine her authority, while Sansa will be the Elizabeth of York figure).

[arjumand]

On 22/06/2016 at 4:52 PM, Chris24601 said:

The other reason I think they'll stay in proximity to each other is that I do think they've been laying groundwork for a Jon/Sansa endgame (I think Yara basically established to Dany all the problems for her ability to rule that marrying a Westerosi lord, particularly a high lord/king would cause... I think Dany will be an Elizabeth I figure with no husband to potentially undermine her authority, while Sansa will be the Elizabeth of York figure).

I like that idea - I've been getting kinda annoyed at the GoT Academy guys over on youtube for their obsession with their Sansa=Elizabeth I theory, because it just doesn't fit. The only reason Elizabeth I became queen was that of Henry VIII's kids, she was the only one left - she was entitled to the crown because she was directly related to the king - what's Sansa's 'credentials' at this point? And does she even want it? Danaerys is the only living child of the last Targaryen king - Jon would be the heir if he were legitimate (if R+L=J), but he isn't, so it's a moot point, as far as the Iron Throne is concerned. If he wanted it, because he doesn't.

Where I agree with them is that Jon is some kind of legendary warrior figure, whether it's Azor Ahai or the Prince that was Promised,* because otherwise I can't see a reason for him surviving that insane long shot cavalry charge followed by battle and near suffocation. There were arrows hitting all around him, cavalry headed straight for him was being stopped by others in the nick of time, and that's besides the guys he smashed through on his own. And it's not enough to say that it's tv show magic - everything in a tv show is there for a reason.

*then they go and piss me off again by saying that Jon wants to die - no he doesn't, not anymore, not after he was buried alive and had to practically dig himself out of his own grave. Fuck's sake.

[Umbelina]

Thanks for that compilation of information about GRRM and Sansa.  Then again, that could be the "bittersweet" part as well, a Stark ends up on the throne, but it's the Stark who isn't really a Stark at all.

As for Tyrion, I know GRRM personally identifies with the Tyrion character the most, so oddly, for me, I always supposed he would die, simply because of that.

[nksarmi]

Well I wouldn't use the idea that Sansa isn't a Stark anymore as an indication that she will die because IF the show gives us a clue to Sansa's book fate - I'd say she was NEVER a Stark until this season (ie book six probably). She hated the Northern life and was completely enchanted with the southern kingdoms. Highgarden would have made her very happy once upon a time. Heck, Casterly Rock probably would have made her happy before the Lannisters killed her family. But now on the show, she has become a daughter of the North and is on her way to becoming a She-Wolf as far as I'm concerned.

Besides on the show, Summer is dead and if that happens in the books, it might be a sign that Bran is becoming something else, but I don't think he will die.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

As for Tyrion, I know GRRM personally identifies with the Tyrion character the most, so oddly, for me, I always supposed he would die, simply because of that.

I think GRRM has said that Sam is most like the person he is, and Tyrion is most like the person he would like to be. (Not sure what's so aspirational about Book Tyrion, apart from his facility with bitchy comebacks, but there you have it.) However, even assuming that the self-insert character is Tyrion and not Sam, GRRM's had self-insert-type characters before who haven't died: Turtle from the Wild Cards series, Froggy from The Armageddon Rag (who's pretty much a modern alternative universe non-dwarf version of Tyrion), etc.

1 hour ago, nksarmi said:

Well I wouldn't use the idea that Sansa isn't a Stark anymore as an indication that she will die because IF the show gives us a clue to Sansa's book fate - I'd say she was NEVER a Stark until this season (ie book six probably). She hated the Northern life and was completely enchanted with the southern kingdoms. Highgarden would have made her very happy once upon a time. Heck, Casterly Rock probably would have made her happy before the Lannisters killed her family. But now on the show, she has become a daughter of the North and is on her way to becoming a She-Wolf as far as I'm concerned.

Besides on the show, Summer is dead and if that happens in the books, it might be a sign that Bran is becoming something else, but I don't think he will die.

It's not so much Lady dying in the books, as what that appears to represent to GRRM. And if Lady dying in the books symbolized Sansa's loss of her Stark identity, which GRRM (and the books themselves, I think) strongly hinted it has, then it suggests that Sansa will be cast out of the Stark kingdom, as it were.

This may very well be playing out in the show as well, albeit in very different fashion than it will likely play out in the books. TV Sansa brags about her status as a trueborn Stark and expects the Northerners will fall all over themselves to honour her Stark status. Instead, Lyanna says only "If you say so" when Sansa delivers what she clearly seems to think is her clincher line ("I'll always be a Stark") and Lord Glover tells her straight up that House Stark is gone. Sansa might very well want to be a "daughter of the North" and to be a "she-wolf," but just because she wants to come back to her northern roots doesn't mean that she will. The showrunners have also hinted pretty heavily that Sansa is no longer a "clean, pure Stark" and Sophie Turner has indicated that Sansa has turned her back on the Stark way of doing things. Whose methods is she favouring these days? Littlefinger's. Not a northerner.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

2 hours ago, Eyes High said:

It's not so much Lady dying in the books, as what that appears to represent to GRRM. And if Lady dying in the books symbolized Sansa's loss of her Stark identity, which GRRM (and the books themselves, I think) strongly hinted it has, then it suggests that Sansa will be cast out of the Stark kingdom, as it were.

This has been debated extensively, but while Lady's death I think has an obvious effect on Sansa's potential connection to magic, I really don't think the books support the reading that she has lost her "Stark identity".  If anything, after Ned's death Sansa, internally, becomes a lot more attached to her Northern heritage, and her story arc from that point forward is chock-a-block with parallels to both her parents' lives.

[Eyes High]

26 minutes ago, SeanC said:

This has been debated extensively, but while Lady's death I think has an obvious effect on Sansa's potential connection to magic, I really don't think the books support the reading that she has lost her "Stark identity".  If anything, after Ned's death Sansa, internally, becomes a lot more attached to her Northern heritage, and her story arc from that point forward is chock-a-block with parallels to both her parents' lives.

I disagree. The direwolves are explicitly linked in the books to the Stark kids' Stark identity. Remember Bran's response to Robb's disgust at Sansa's letter in AGOT and his "Damn it! What's wrong with the girl?": "She lost her wolf." And remember Sansa hearing the wind howling: it sounds like a "ghost wolf." Sansa is no longer a Stark, not in a marriage sense but in a spiritual sense, so she thinks of a "ghost wolf." Sansa compares herself to a ghost in AGOT as well. She's not dead, of course, but her Starkness is. Even as she thinks more and more fondly of her Northern roots, she drifts further and further away from her Stark upbringing as she becomes more and more like Littlefinger (in both the book and the show) without a wolf to anchor her Stark identity the way Nymeria anchors Arya's (in the books at least). GRRM's off the cuff comments support this interpretation, as does his refusal to exonerate her for bearing some responsibility for Lady and Ned's deaths. Sansa seems to GRRM to be first, foremost and always a traitor to the Starks whose actions stripped her of her Starkness; it is how he conceived of her in the outline, and it appears to be how he views the character in ASOIAF.

Lady is also linked to the death of Sansa's chances for queenship, I think. Lady takes food from Sansa in a manner "as delicate as a queen." Lady is dead, and so is Sansa's shot at being queen of anything. The fact that GRRM created Sansa as an afterthought to reflect the conflict in families, as I posted upthread, coupled with her very limited role in the outline, also points strongly away from her having any significant role in the endgame, I think, much less Sansa ending up as queen.

Spoiler

Sansa being passed over for QITN status in favour of Jon being named KITN, despite this being done with her apparent consent, reinforces this to me.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

12 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

Even as she thinks more and more fondly of her Northern roots, she drifts further and further away from her Stark upbringing as she becomes more and more like Littlefinger (in both the book and the show) without a wolf to anchor her Stark identity the way Nymeria anchors Arya's. GRRM's off the cuff comments support this interpretation, as does his refusal to exonerate her for bearing some responsibility for Lady and Ned's deaths.

A single coy statement at a convention is a lot to hang that on.  And I don't think she has drifted any further away from her Stark upbringing than Arya has, wolf dreams or not.

It's not merely her own thoughts, either.  Her story is full of parallels to both her parents; indeed, she's been handed as a principal antagonist the man who brought her father down and was obsessed with her mother. 

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

A single coy statement at a convention is a lot to hang that on. 

GRRM has made at least two statements to this effect that we know of, six years apart. It's often forgotten or overlooked that GRRM said these things because it's inconvenient for certain theories, but he said them nonetheless. Coupled with the fact that he conceived of Sansa as an afterthought to provide some much-needed family conflict, and with the fact that the outline identifies Sansa as the Stark of "dubious loyalty" and appears to hint that she dies fairly early on, it points towards nothing good for Sansa. Even if she survives the series, which I very much doubt, I think she's extremely unlikely to be queen as some have suggested. I think her shot at queenship died with Lady. 

6x10: New photo released of the High Sparrow and a crowd at the Sept. Standing behind the HS? Margaery, Mace and Kevan.

We know that a scene was filmed with Pycelle and Qyburn in Qyburn's laboratory. We also know that there was a scene where the little birds were stabbing someone.

Spoiler

I'm guessing Pycelle finds out what Qyburn's cooking up with the wildfire plot and Qyburn sics the little birds on Pycelle, while Kevan perishes in the Sept along with everyone else. I'm guessing Varys is off in Dorne securing an alliance with Ellaria and company and is not involved in Pycelle and Kevan's deaths, unlike Book Varys.

Final body count prediction for 6x10, based on spoilers and leaks:

Spoiler

 

Unella, Pycelle, Kevan, Mace, Margaery, Tommen, High Sparrow, Loras, Walder Frey, Walder Rivers, Lothar Frey

11 named characters in one episode, including the king. Yikes.

 

Edited June 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[nksarmi]

I always saw Sansa as more of a Tully than a Stark. In the books, only Jon and Ayra have the Stark look, but Robb is his father's son through and through. We know Bran and Rickon have the Stark magical connection - so looks aside, they are their father's sons. But I always saw Sansa as being the least Stark even before Lady died.

Personally, I used to think Lady dying meant she was too civilized, too tame to survive and that was a bad sign for Sansa. However - while there is no sign of this in the books - if D&D have made their choices based on Sansa's future story - I think Sansa might be changing INTO her father's daughter rather than going the other way. If Sansa is being paired with LF because she will ultimately be his undoing - think about the significance of that! The man who started her family on the path of ruin and spared her only because she reminds him of her mother finding her inner Stark to take him down. And if GRRM really wants to "break a trope" or whatever it is he is known for - it WILL be the "sweet little lady" that avengers her family rather than the tom-boy of Ayra. Not that Ayra won't get her vengeance on certain characters - but Sansa should be the one to bring LF down. It would just be poetic.

At any rate, we'll find out of the next couple of years on the show and maybe the next decade in the books lol. But the show has done for me something the books always failed to do - made me like and cheer for Sansa Stark. Oh and at this point - especially since she has never been bedded in the books - I do think it's at least possible that the Stark line continues through Sansa. That would probably rule out her pairing with Tyrion since his children would be Lannisters, but if we think about who will carry on the Stark family tree - I'd say Sansa's survival rates increase by a ton.

[Chris24601]

I can't claim full credit for the Sansa = Elizabeth of York theory, but I think it fits Sansa's story and desires far better than Elizabeth I.

Sansa's dream in the books after her storybook falsehoods had been stripped away was of the quiet life as the lady of a castle raising children named after her lost family members (this makes her the only viewpoint character in the story whose dreams match up with Jon's of being Lord of Winterfell in happy times with children named for his lost family... and between the two of them they have a full set, minus each other). Based on her interactions with Robin in the books and her interactions with the ladies during the Battle of the Blackwater, she is far better suited to the role of encouraging mother-figure than to some sort of arch-schemer like Littlefinger.

That is basically the story of Elizabeth of York as well, who lost her two brothers during the war of the roses, but went on to lead what seems to have been a quiet and happy life as a beloved queen and mother of future kings and queens.

Where Sansa's story also seems likely to match up is in the dynamics of her marriage. Henry VII was her third-cousin and married Elizabeth specifically to strengthen the claim of his children to the throne. Just last episode we had Sansa herself state that neither Jon (bastard) nor Sansa (girl) had the strength of Rickon's claim as a trueborn son. With Dany the reasonable queen on the table now, the prospects of Jon needing to secure the loyalty of other regions of Westeros through marriage is eliminated. So if all he's looking to do is soothe the concerns of some of the other Northern houses and strengthen the claim of his future children to Winterfell then Jon, as Ned's nephew, marrying Ned's trueborn daughter to ensure that his children will be Ned Stark's trueborn grandchildren is the ideal means of doing so (particularly since, if Bran is impotent due to his injuries, Sansa and her children would be Bran's heir as well).

Dany, by contrast, simply cannot afford to marry a strong man as the expectations would be for him to act as King/Regent and/or for Dany to turn over power to any son the moment they come of age. This goes double for Jon Snow/Stark/Targaryen, who is be named King in the North in Robb's will (and will likely become so on the show as well), because someone will try to make the case that Jon's claim is more legitimate than hers (The Targaryen's recognized polygamy so he could be legitimate to begin with and due to edicts by past kings any man of the Targaryen line supersedes a woman when it comes to the Iron Throne).

Basically, if Dany wants to be queen of all (or most) of Westeros, its in her best interest to not marry herself and buy off Jon by letting him be King in the North/Lord of Winterfell (which is all he really wants) and Jon's best way to prevent future conflicts over the Northern throne between his children and Sansa's children (who would be seen as a threat because of their claim through Ned's line... something pointed out by Cat when Robb was making his will in the books) is to make those children one and the same.

Which again is basically the reason for Henry VII's marriage to Elizabeth of York as well.

One other important aspect as well is that while it may have begun as a political marriage, all the evidence is that Henry VII grew to love Elizabeth dearly to the point that years after her death he was still being depicting in mourning clothes and essentially died of a broken heart not too long afterwards. If, as has been depicted this season when presenting themselves before the Northern houses, Jon/Sansa are something of a Ned/Cat 2.0 then despite it being a political marriage, there's a good chance that they will, like Ned and Cat, grow to love one another and get their happy ending of a quiet life at Winterfell raising children named for their lost family members (unlike the traditional fantasy stereotype of the hero coming home from the great war to become king, I think Martin is aiming for Jon, after saving the world from the Others, to just want to go home to a quiet life; represented by Winterfell and Sansa).

[Eyes High]

Lady took food from Sansa in a manner "as delicate as a queen." Lady's dead, and so I imagine is Sansa's chance for queenship of anything, be it the North or the Iron Throne. GRRM has also said that Sansa bears some responsibility for Ned's death. She won't end up as queen of Westeros when her pursuit of queenship in AGOT was partly responsible for Ned's demise. Likewise, she won't end up as queen in the North when her actions led to Ned's death. GRRM has also suggested that not only that Sansa is responsible for Lady's death but also that Lady's death means that Sansa is no longer a Stark. It seems extremely unlikely that Sansa will end up as queen in the North when the very symbol of her Stark identity, the thing that marks her as part of the ruling family of the North, her direwolf, is dead, and even dead as a result of her own actions.

Sansa is a poor fit for the endgame queen figure for other reasons. GRRM devised Sansa as a character because the Stark family lacked conflict. In the 1993  outline, Sansa's main character point is that she is of dubious loyalty to the Starks and betrays the family. It seems to be hinted in the outline that she dies fairly early on as well. GRRM identified five central characters in 1993 who would not only survive the series but around whom the series would revolve; unlike Jon, Bran, and Arya, Sansa was not one of these characters, and it seems unlikely that the endgame queen would not have numbered among these five central characters. GRRM has also said that he's known the "broad strokes" of the ending since 1991, two years before he penned the outline primarily identifying Sansa as the traitor to her family and only referencing her in passing. It seems very likely that in 1991, he knew the identity of the endgame queen (if any), and he nevertheless went on to write an outline in which he implied that Sansa perished. Finally, in 2001 and in 2007 he made comments at conventions hinting that Lady's death meant that Sansa was no longer a Stark. Is it possible that GRRM could have changed his mind about Sansa's queenship prospects since 1993? Of course. Is it likely? I doubt it.

Any endgame that places Sansa at the middle of a Stark renaissance is missing the point, I think. Sansa's Starkness died with Lady, so no North for her.

If Sansa survives the series, she seems far more likely to end up with not Jon but Sandor, with whom (like it or lump it) there has been much established romantic subtext in the books, which GRRM freely admits he's "played with." Sansa disappearing to live in quiet, humble obscurity with a nobody like Sandor, in a complete reversal of AGOT Sansa obsessed with queenship and status, would be a suitable ASOIAF-esque reversal, as opposed to Endgame Sansa ending up pretty much where AGOT Sansa hoped she'd end up, except in an even better position because she would have traded Joffrey for Jon. All indications are that GRRM doesn't do things that way in ASOIAF. It seems extremely unlikely he intends Sansa to benefit from screwing over Lady (the symbol of her Starkness) and Ned (her father and the leader of the North) by giving her everything she screwed them over to get. It seems more likely that she "loses everything" that AGOT Sansa would have valued--class, status, refined knights, queenship, even ladyship--as appropriate karmic punishment for the consequences Sansa chasing those things at the expense of her family had in AGOT (and GRRM does love his karmic punishment), but finds true love and peace in a somewhat different form, i.e. with a fucked-up non-knight with no status whatsoever in some quiet little middle of nowhere. Sansa would get what she now seems to want most--being married for love with no political or mercenary considerations involved--at the cost of pretty much everything else.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[Advance35]

I don't think Sansa is going to go somewhere and fall in love, living in blissful obscurity because that's exactly what she wants and nobody get's what they WANT in this story.   I think she'll be in a position on prominence because she DOESN'T harbor anymore fondness for the idea.  She's fallen out of love with the idea of Queenship because of everything "the game" has cost her.   I wouldn't be surprised if GRRM sets her up in such a position but having Sansa with a vastly different outcome.  GRRM said that the person on the Iron Throne in the end, will be someone most don't expect.  I don't think many people see Sansa getting it for a number of reasons.   I wouldn't bet my rent on it but at the same time I wouldn't rule it out either.  Has any character spent so much time with so many different factions in this story?  Dollars to donuts, obscurity is off the menu.

I don't think she's going to be on the frontline fighting others but I do remember D&D saying that Sansa is one of the most important characters.   That certainly doesn't promise anything but I do think that whatever endgame GRRM has in mind for her, it's more then the afterthought described in his "outline."  I am confident there will be more then GRRM's pwecious, special five standing when all is said and done.

And I don't think Sansa's future is with Sandor Clegane either.  I have know doubt their paths will cross again.  But I feel if Sandor were her endgame, he would have been given more prominence as a character.  Or his interaction with Sansa would have been.   Comparatively, the two characters have spent very little time together on the show.  I think they'll meet again in the books but I don't think he's her destiny or anything close to it.   I think if he was D&D would have casted VERY differently. 

As for Jon and Sansa. I could see it go either way.   It wasn't a theory I started out with but once I read it, I was then able to totally see it.  Nothing is promised certainly but I wouldn't call "false" if GRRM went that way.   I don't think Sansa will marry for love so that fits in with how I picture her endgame.   Definitely waiting to see more.   I must say I've grown to LOVE the interaction between Jon and Sansa though.   He's so heart on his sleeve even now and she's so oblique.   And Kit and Sophie have WONDERFUL chemistry as screen partners.

[Chris24601]

Regarding people getting what they want... I think a lot of people confuse bitter with bittersweet. Bittersweet is not everything in ashes and misery (You lose what you actually want). Bittersweet is not a Pyrrhic victory (one that costs you more than it gains). Bittersweet is a hard fought victory that required many sacrifices to achieve, but is still without question a victory.

And I agree on Sansa and the Hound. I think their paths will cross again, but I suspect it will end with HIM making the heroic sacrifice to save either her or Arya (mostly likely from the Mountain... because Cleganbowl is a thing, it was just not the right time for it this season).

Just based on the story structure I expect Jon, Dany, Tyrion, Sansa, Arya and Bran to all play a role in the endgame in some fashion. Of those though, Sansa is the only one who does not have anything to materially contribute to a victory over the Others. That's why I tend to fall into the Jon/Sansa camp because who the hero fights for and wants to return to is an important character in their own right in any story (particularly given GRRM's comments of dissatisfaction with the character of Arwyn in Lord of the Rings... who he felt was nothing but pretty face with no real depth to give Aragorn's marriage to her any real weight).

So in terms of the promised bittersweet ending, I think Jon and Sansa living a quiet and uneventful life as King and Queen of the North (and whose children will also likely be Dany's heirs if she never has children of her own) fulfills the sweet part of the equation for them (as would the survival of true friends like Sam and the rest of their family in Arya and Bran) while the price to get there in losing so much of their family and all the hardships they endured to get there fulfills the bitter aspect (particularly when either of them would gladly trade the titles and properties away for even one of their lost family to be returned to them).

[SeanC]

11 hours ago, Eyes High said:

GRRM has made at least two statements to this effect that we know of, six years apart.

No, he only addressed whether Lady = "Starkness" once, to which he offered only ambiguity, as is his wont on occasion.  The first time he just addressed whether she had some responsibility for Lady and Ned's demises.

9 hours ago, Eyes High said:

If Sansa survives the series, she seems far more likely to end up with not Jon but Sandor, with whom (like it or lump it) there has been much established romantic subtext in the books, which GRRM freely admits he's "played with." Sansa disappearing to live in quiet, humble obscurity with a nobody like Sandor, in a complete reversal of AGOT Sansa obsessed with queenship and status, would be a suitable ASOIAF-esque reversal, as opposed to Endgame Sansa ending up pretty much where AGOT Sansa hoped she'd end up, except in an even better position because she would have traded Joffrey for Jon. All indications are that GRRM doesn't do things that way in ASOIAF. It seems extremely unlikely he intends Sansa to benefit from screwing over Lady (the symbol of her Starkness) and Ned (her father and the leader of the North) by giving her everything she screwed them over to get. It seems more likely that she "loses everything" that AGOT Sansa would have valued--class, status, refined knights, queenship, even ladyship--as appropriate karmic punishment for the consequences Sansa chasing those things at the expense of her family had in AGOT (and GRRM does love his karmic punishment), but finds true love and peace in a somewhat different form, i.e. with a fucked-up non-knight with no status whatsoever in some quiet little middle of nowhere. Sansa would get what she now seems to want most--being married for love with no political or mercenary considerations involved--at the cost of pretty much everything else.

I've seen people suggest this, but I'd call this far less likely to happen than either her dying or living at Winterfell.  A lot of that rests on a sort of idealized pastoralism that has never been part of the series, nor is it something the characters show any inclination toward.  Also, if you assume the Hound is in the picture, the series (the show even moreso, I'd say, given Arya's repeated interrogations about her attitude toward him) has gone to some length to give him something like a relationship with others in the Stark family.

Sansa has also already suffered rather severe consequences for her misguidedness in AGOT, so I think it's false to presume that any ending where she has some sort of position (and I'm not a person who thinks she's going to be queen) is some sort of reward for her earlier behavior.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

No, he only addressed whether Lady = "Starkness" once, to which he offered only ambiguity, as is his wont on occasion.  The first time he just addressed whether she had some responsibility for Lady and Ned's demises.

At St. Louis in 2001 (Archon) the following exchange occurred:

Quote

In regards to the conversation about the direwolves and the Starks the point was made (I forget by whom) that Lady was dead and Sansa still alive to which I replied that Sansa wasn't really much of a Stark anymore. IIRC (this is a little hazy), at this point GRRM kind of leaned back in his chair, smiled and said something to the effect of "A very astute observation."

At Indy in 2007 he responded "Doesn't it?" when someone disputed the idea that Lady's death meant that Sansa was no longer a Stark. As I said, two statements, six years apart.

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I've seen people suggest this, but I'd call this far less likely to happen than either her dying or living at Winterfell.

I've said that Sansa is most likely to die, but if she doesn't, running off with Sandor to live in quiet obscurity is a very likely outcome in my opinion, and far likelier than Jon/Sansa, who have virtually no foreshadowing compared to the piles and piles and piles of Sandor/Sansa subtext in the books. "Get her a dog instead, she'll be happier for it," etc. etc. Sansa loses her wolf--i.e. her Stark identity--but gets a "hound" instead and is "happier for it," if perhaps in a way that would horrify AGOT Sansa. There is also a lot of marriage symbolism involving Sandor and Sansa: Sansa keeping Sandor's cloak without being able to say why, Sansa dreaming of Tyrion (her husband) turning into Sandor, etc. etc. Also, GRRM has gone to some trouble to make disappearing off the face of the earth pretty attractive to Sansa. There could be a meta reason for that. There is also precedent in the ASOIAF world of women disappearing off the face of the earth, possibly to live in peace and quiet with their lovers (Rohanne, Nettles, etc.).

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Sansa has also already suffered rather severe consequences for her misguidedness in AGOT, so I think it's false to presume that any ending where she has some sort of position (and I'm not a person who thinks she's going to be queen) is some sort of reward for her earlier behavior.

GRRM pays a lot of attention to the long-term consequences. And in the world of ASOIAF, where the bulk of the POVs have been mutilated (Theon, Tyrion, Brienne, etc.), crippled (Jaime, Bran, etc.), raped (Dany, Cersei, etc.) and/or killed (Ned, Cat, etc.), the consequences Book Sansa has suffered for her actions are hardly "severe." Choosing or being forced to give up her family, her home, her status and her name as a trade for peace and romantic happiness and realizing that the only way to win the game of thrones is not to play? That seems closer to GRRM's brand of rough justice.

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nobody get's what they WANT in this story

I disagree. Characters do get what they want, but the price is often extremely high. Oberyn gets what he wants--revenge on the Mountain--but it costs him his life. Bran gets what he wants--to be able to see everything from a great height, which was the reason he loved climbing--but it costs him his legs. Cersei gets what she wants--getting Margaery imprisoned--but it wound up backfiring on her and resulting in her own imprisonment. And so on. If Sansa wants ultimately to be married for love, she can and I expect will get it, but it will cost her pretty much everything else.

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And I don't think Sansa's future is with Sandor Clegane either.  I have know doubt their paths will cross again.  But I feel if Sandor were her endgame, he would have been given more prominence as a character.  Or his interaction with Sansa would have been.

Sandor is one of the characters who appeared very early in Sansa's storyline, along with Littlefinger. While their interactions in person ended in ACOK, Sansa has thought about him or referenced him in pretty much every POV chapter since. Sandor has also spoken about Sansa a great deal since their separation to Arya. There is more subtext involving that pairing than pretty much every other "non-canon" pairing except Jaime/Brienne, who also have been separated for the bulk of the series.

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And I agree on Sansa and the Hound. I think their paths will cross again, but I suspect it will end with HIM making the heroic sacrifice to save either her or Arya (mostly likely from the Mountain... because Cleganbowl is a thing, it was just not the right time for it this season).

I'm not so sure. There's a lot of marriage symbolism involving Sansa and Sandor. I doubt that would be there if his only role was to die for her or for Arya.

Edited June 25, 2016 by Eyes High

[SeanC]

30 minutes ago, Eyes High said:

At Indy in 2007 he responded "Doesn't it?" when someone disputed the idea that Lady's death meant that Sansa was no longer a Stark.

And if somebody asked him "Dany's frequent musings on the House with the Red Door don't signify that she will eventually forsake all power to go live a quiet life by herself, do they?", would you expect him to give a straight answer?  He declined to resolve the discussion.

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GRRM pays a lot of attention to the long-term consequences. And in the world of ASOIAF, where the bulk of the POVs have been mutilated (Theon, Tyrion, Brienne, etc.), crippled (Jaime, Bran, etc.), raped (Dany, Cersei, etc.) and/or killed (Ned, Cat, etc.), the consequences Book Sansa has suffered for her actions are hardly "severe." 

Years of physical and psychological abuse, and repeated attempts at molestation are pretty severe consequences, ones she'll carry the scars from for the rest of her life.  She also seems to have been cut off from magic.

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I've said that Sansa is most likely to die, but if she doesn't, running off with Sandor to live in quiet obscurity is a very likely outcome in my opinion, and far likelier than Jon/Sansa, who have virtually no foreshadowing compared to the piles and piles and piles of Sandor/Sansa subtext in the books.

Ending up with the Hound is certainly quite possible, but the "running off" part is rather unlikely, in my opinion.  Sansa's story has been very heavy about the importance of home and family, and even if she was happy in a romantic relationship, I cannot imagine her running off and never seeing her siblings again.  It's not a choice she'd be forced to make in order to be with him.

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Choosing or being forced to give up her family, her home, her status and her name as a trade for peace and romantic happiness and realizing that the only way to win the game of thrones is not to play?

Sansa has been "not playing" the game of thrones from the beginning.  It didn't work out so well.  Over the course of her story we're seeing her moving toward playing the game specifically because it's the only way to survive.

Edited June 25, 2016 by SeanC

[Funzlerks]

If she maried The Hound, wouldn't it be a love match.  There are dozens of lords that she could marry to help her family and Sandor 'Walking Tall' Clegane isn't one of them.  He is more of an outcast than she is.  And I don't see why Sansa would be attracted to marrying him.  He doesn't like the things she does and I cannot imagine him being lordof a keep.  It isn't like she reminisces on her time with him fondly as she almost does at times with Tyrion.  Tyrion makes a little sense to me, The Hound not at all.  I kind of think she is going to be the one to die to make Jon, Arya, and Bran very sad at the end but even her brother Jon Snow makes more sense to me than Sandor.  Jaime might even make more sense.

[Advance35]

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Sandor is one of the characters who appeared very early in Sansa's storyline, along with Littlefinger. While their interactions in person ended in ACOK, Sansa has thought about him or referenced him in pretty much every POV chapter since. Sandor has also spoken about Sansa a great deal since their separation to Arya. There is more subtext involving that pairing than pretty much every other "non-canon" pairing except Jaime/Brienne, who also have been separated for the bulk of the series.

I can't see it.  Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, even in ASOIAF.  Again I think they'll see each other again and I have my theories as to how, but ending up together?  I just can't see it happening.  For all the detours the show takes, the majority of characters are going to come to the  same fate they do in GRRM's books.   D&D have, in many cases, trimmed the fat (and thankfully so in some instances).   It was glaring that so much of Sandor and Sansa's interactions were cut or SEVERELY underplayed.  Time will tell but ya.  I'm thinking Sandor/Sansa is a no go.

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It isn't like she reminisces on her time with him fondly as she almost does at times with Tyrion.  Tyrion makes a little sense to me, The Hound not at all.  I kind of think she is going to be the one to die to make Jon, Arya, and Bran very sad at the end but even her brother Jon Snow makes more sense to me than Sandor.  Jaime might even make more sense.

I maybe could see this.  Tyron and Sansa.  I think it would depend on whether she found House Lannister useful for some reason, I can't imagine.  I do think it's interesting that the show chose to build a rapport between Tyrion and Sansa.   Even after everything, they were each a beacon of support to each other during the humiliation of the Purple Wedding.   And Sansa, at least for now, is in the company of his Squire Podrick Payne.  I wouldn't be surprised if they met again.  I'm just curious as to how.   And that could actually be one reason for Jon to keep Sansa with him and safe at that.   Her history/connection with Tyrion whom just happens to be Dany's chief advisor on things Westeros.   I think Sansa will make it to the last leg of the story at least.  

For some reason (I flip flop like it's my job) I feel like Sansa's going to make it.

[Eyes High]

1 hour ago, SeanC said:

Years of physical and psychological abuse, and repeated attempts at molestation are pretty severe consequences, ones she'll carry the scars from for the rest of her life.  She also seems to have been cut off from magic.

Book Sansa's suffering is nothing compared to the other characters', both POVs and otherwise. Relatively speaking, she has had it extremely easy.

If she maried The Hound, wouldn't it be a love match.

Yes, precisely. That's the point: the Hound can offer her nothing and would not be marrying her to gain any material advantage from the match, which is what she wants. She hates the idea that no one will ever marry her for love. She hates the idea of being married for her claim. Marrying someone who loved her for her is what she wants most.

There are dozens of lords that she could marry to help her family and Sandor 'Walking Tall' Clegane isn't one of them.

Sansa is not the type to marry to help her family. She wasn't inclined to sacrifice her romantic desires on her father's say-so in AGOT, and there's no indication that she's at all inclined to marry for any other reason than her own desires in AFFC. She isn't even sure that she wants to marry at all in AFFC, but if she does, it seems strongly hinted that she will want to marry for love and for no other reason. Her days of being dutifully unhappily married to someone she wouldn't otherwise marry are over.

And I don't see why Sansa would be attracted to marrying him.

She dreams of a kiss that never happens. She can't explain why she kept his bloody cloak. She mentally replaces Tyrion with Sandor in her bed in her dream. She wants him, and she's a romantic. I can see her marrying him easily.

It isn't like she reminisces on her time with him fondly as she almost does at times with Tyrion.

I don't know that I'd call it fond. Book Sansa's attitude towards Tyrion is ambiguous. She includes Tyrion in the list of family members from whom she cannot seek aid in AFFC (although she leaves Jon off the list) because he's been executed. We have no idea how she reacted to the news that he was alive, which she learns at some point before the end of AFFC, where she tells Littlefinger "I am married, you know." She "dreams of Tyrion" sometimes in ASOS, but the only dream we know of is one where she dreams of Tyrion turning into Sandor in her bed. She defends Tyrion to Littlefinger briefly in ASOS--"He did nothing"--after Littlefinger explains who was responsible for Joffrey's death, but he tells her that Tyrion gave Tysha to his guards when he tired of her, and Sansa never appears to dispute or disbelieve this account. She isn't sure about whether or not to be relieved that she'll be widowed ("She might never have to share a bed with Tyrion again. That was what she wanted...wasn't it?").

Book Tyrion's attitude towards Sansa is also ambiguous. There are times when he appears to hate her, lumping her in with the other "false" women like Shae. His rape of the red-haired Selhorys prostitute could be construed as Tyrion trying to rape Sansa vicariously. At other times, he seems almost nostalgic. He compares Penny to Sansa and thinks of Sansa as "the child bride he wed and lost," a rather romanticized version of the truth, "the child hostage he forced to marry him who framed him for regicide as far as he knows," and he makes an ambiguously punctuated reference to "My wife. I miss my wife, the wife I hardly knew." Book Tyrion seems to be spiraling downward, though, so his flip-flopping might resolve into outright 100% rage towards Sansa at some point.

The whole business is ambiguous in the books, compared to Sandor and Sansa being hot for each other, which is pretty unambiguous. I don't ship it, but SanSan is definitely A Thing in the books, and there's enough marriage symbolism in there to make me think that if Sansa makes it through this thing, she'll wind up with him.

As for SanSan in the show, I agree that it was downplayed in Season 2, but it's entirely possible that that was done out of deference to Sophie's very young age. If SanSan was intended to be endgame, they probably wanted to avoid anything inappropriate in Season 2 so that it would seem less creepy down the road. Now that Sophie is of age, they can probably play up the romantic elements more if/when the characters reunite.

For all that Sansa's spoken glowingly of Tyrion in the show in Season 4 and 5 (albeit under specific circumstances and for specific reasons), TV Tyrion hasn't mentioned Sansa once since he left KL. He never asked Varys about her as far as we know. If Tyrion/Sansa were going to be some sort of thing in the show, I imagine that the connection would have been played up more during their separation. As it is, the characters seem in the show to be on very different trajectories.

[nksarmi]

Well Tyrion hasn't spoken about Sansa, he hasn't had cause to either. On the show, the most appropriate conversation would be likely to take place between Tyrion and Theon in a quiet moment as they sail to Westerous or once they have already landed.

Since on the show, Tyrion is all about finding ways to unite the kingdoms through peaceful means - it actually makes sense that he would leverage his marriage to a daughter of the North as a partial means to get Dany the North. I think the red priestesses will play some part in all of that as well. But I think a sit down between Tyrion and Sansa is definitely likely by the end of season seven.

Personally, I see Sansa's two most likely matches at the end of the series being Jon or Tyrion.

[nksarmi]

Oh and I just wanted to add that I feel like I now know what poor book Sansa fans feel like. I don't care for the character in the books, but I've really liked her on the show this season. And every time someone bitches about how she went down to Ramsey's level - I just want to see the scene with the smile reshot and I want to see her doing a party dance when she walks out of the kennels. I mean a full on "I will survive" dance scene would do it for me.

And I know some of her book fans are ones complaining about that scene but I just don't see it. It wasn't a fraction of the scary that was Dany burning down the house with the khals and they just convinced me two episodes later that she might be a good queen after all (assuming Tyrion stays with her). Nor was it as gruesome as Ayra's murder last season and yet, I still mostly saw Ayra as a broken little girl this season as opposed to a brutal killer. Sansa is harder and colder because of what she went through on the show, but I think in many ways - she is probably more sensitive to the plight of other people than young Sansa ever was. I think this Sansa would have seen through Joffrey in a second. I am so interested in who she becomes now and I am definitely cheering for her.

[arjumand]

12 minutes ago, nksarmi said:

Oh and I just wanted to add that I feel like I now know what poor book Sansa fans feel like. I don't care for the character in the books, but I've really liked her on the show this season. And every time someone bitches about how she went down to Ramsey's level - I just want to see the scene with the smile reshot and I want to see her doing a party dance when she walks out of the kennels. I mean a full on "I will survive" dance scene would do it for me.

And I know some of her book fans are ones complaining about that scene but I just don't see it. It wasn't a fraction of the scary that was Dany burning down the house with the khals and they just convinced me two episodes later that she might be a good queen after all (assuming Tyrion stays with her). Nor was it as gruesome as Ayra's murder last season and yet, I still mostly saw Ayra as a broken little girl this season as opposed to a brutal killer. Sansa is harder and colder because of what she went through on the show, but I think in many ways - she is probably more sensitive to the plight of other people than young Sansa ever was. I think this Sansa would have seen through Joffrey in a second. I am so interested in who she becomes now and I am definitely cheering for her.

Yeah, whatever. I must have missed the scenes in which she

• flays people while they're alive
• hunts women with a bow and dogs
• tortures someone for months and cuts off his penis
• kills her own father with a knife between the ribs
• kills a newborn baby with aforementioned dogs
• keeps threatening people with aforementioned dogs
• rapes and tortures someone for an indeterminate time.

I've seen posts on tumblr in which rape survivors were almost ashamed of admitting they shared that little smile Sansa gave when she was walking away - that feeling of utter relief that she'll never be hurt by him, ever again. That they shared the desire to destroy their own rapist and abuser the way Sansa did hers.

Also, what happened to Ramsey wasn't the Stark way?

I'm sorry, but I don't get it: She passed sentence on him ("you will disappear"), she gave him the opportunity to say his last words ("I will always be a part of you"), which were the classic abuser words, and then his own tools were . . .  put in the same room with him. She at first was going to turn away, but then she faced him, the man she sentenced to die ("Don't look away. Father will know if you do.")

And the little smile was while she was walking away. No-one saw it. She didn't even show Ramsey, the monster, who did all his crimes while grinning, laughing at the people he was destroying, not even allowing them some dignity at the end. No, she gave him his dignity, the man who raped her with an audience. She didn't turn him into a joke, which he really was, at the end, having created the means of his own destruction.

She saved her relief and satisfaction for herself (and us). Is she not allowed to feel relieved that this man who tried to destroy her is finally gone, and won't hurt her or anyone else ever again?

Absolutely, nksarmi; now I too want an "I will survive" edit - maybe a fanvid.

[Hecate7]

7 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I'm not so sure. There's a lot of marriage symbolism involving Sansa and Sandor. I doubt that would be there if his only role was to die for her or for Arya.

 

Marriage symbolism? Where? Did he give her a cloak or something? How did I miss this? She imagines he kissed her, he wishes he'd raped her. To me that's really not a promising basis for a relationship. Their names have the same prefix, but so do Tyrek, Tywin, Tysha, Tyrion, etc...what am I missing?

[Eyes High]

16 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

Marriage symbolism? Where? Did he give her a cloak or something? How did I miss this? She imagines he kissed her, he wishes he'd raped her. To me that's really not a promising basis for a relationship. Their names have the same prefix, but so do Tyrek, Tywin, Tysha, Tyrion, etc...what am I missing?

In Westeros weddings, the groom gives the bride his cloak and drapes it over her. In the books, Sandor has given Sansa his cloak twice: once when she needed something to cover herself after being stripped on Joffrey's orders, and the second time when he left it behind after Blackwater. At Blackwater, Sandor rips the kingsguard cloak off and leaves it behind for Sansa, who huddles under it. Sansa also keeps the cloak but can't explain why she does so. Book Sandor has symbolically married Sansa not once but twice. Sansa attaches some significance to the Blackwater incident, since she keeps the cloak but can't give a reason for doing so. Furthermore, by the time AFFC rolls around, the Blackwater incident has morphed into this romanticized version in her memory:

As the boy's lips touched her own she found herself thinking of another kiss. She could still remember how it felt, when his cruel mouth pressed down on her own. He had come to Sansa in the darkness as green fire filled the sky. He took a song and a kiss, and left me nothing but a bloody cloak.

She also substitutes Sandor for Tyrion (her husband) when dreaming of her wedding night, shortly after she mistook Lothor for the Hound when he was rescuing her from Marillion:

And she dreamed of her wedding night too, of Tyrion's eyes devouring her as she undressed. Only then he was bigger than Tyrion had any right to be, and when he climbed into the bed his face was scarred only on one side. "I'll have a song from you," he rasped, and Sansa woke and found the old blind dog beside her once again. "I wish that you were Lady," she said.

When Myranda asks her if she knows what goes on in "the marriage bed," she thinks of "Tyrion, and the Hound and how he'd kissed her," again linking Sandor with Tyrion (her husband).

I don't know if it's leading anywhere, but to me at least it's difficult to dispute that there is a ton of SanSan subtext in the books. If we're talking endgame partners for Sansa, Sandor is the most likely and perhaps the only possible candidate.

As for the names being similar, I don't attach any particular significance to that, but Tyrion remembers Tysha telling him that their names go well together.