Jaime Lannister: The Kingslayer

[sev]

Anyway, in the next episode we'll know better how to take that sept fiasco. In the meantime, some captioned pics on  How to Explain Away ‘That Scene’.

[NoWillToResist]

Wow, they really tried hard to show Jaime in a good light in this ep, didn't they?

 

Played well with Bronn; even though he's crazy obsessed with Cersei, he won't kill Tyrion and he won't go after Sansa; he clearly didn't like it when Cersei referred to Brienne as a 'big cow'; he then gives his rare sword and a kickass suit of armour to Brienne so that she can quietly and discreetly search Westeros for Sansa; he 'gives' her Podrick as a companion too.

 

I won't lie: I laughed when Tyrion referred to them as the Kingslayer Brothers. :)

 

I hope that Jaime realizes that his dear sister is actually a vengeful, vindictive, spiteful bitch and ditches her ass.

[Constantinople]

Since the child tossing, cousin murdering, sister raping, Kingslayer is still all mid-life crisisey about his dimunitive

entry in Ye Olde Booke of Kuhniggets, I thought I'd take a stab at filling it out for him.

 

Ser Jaime Lannister, the Kingslayer, also known as Lefty Lannister, Goldy Right & Ser Southpaw

 

Though widely considered the best right-handed swordsman of his generation, Ser Jaimie's primary contributions to the realm have come in the field of science.

 

When young, Ser Jaime discovered that the New Gods cast him into the water after jumping off the cliffs at Casterly Rock.  Once he learned that the North still worshiped the Old Gods, Jaime wanted to find out if they behaved any differently.  Unfortunately, it was several decades before Ser Jaimie visited the North.  By then, his size was such that using himself as a test subject would not have provided a valid comparison with his childhood results.  Therefore, Ser Jaime found an object the size of a young boy and pushed it out the window from one of the highest towers in Winterfell.  Recent civil unrest delayed publication of Ser Jaime's results, but he recently submitted "Old Gods, New Gods: Kids Fall Down" to the Journal of The Things We Do For (the) Love (of Science)!, and is currently being peer reviewed by Grand Maester Pycelle & Qyburn, since Maester Luwin was no longer available.

 

Ser Jaime has always had a strong interest in neuroscience.  While serving as a squire for Ser Barristan Selmy, Jaime demonstrated that a decapitated head could not speak, and thus could not say any last words.  This, as much as anything he did, led to Jaime's knighthood.  Later in life, Ser Jaime made another contribution to neuroscience when one of Roose Bolton's bannerman misterpreted Ser Jaime's offer to lend them a hand in the War of the Five Kings, thereby showing that severed hands and stumpy arms don't mix.

 

Ser Jaime has also been hailed as one of realm's premier advocates of ethical science.  Ser Jaime declined to participate in late King Aerys's study to see who or what was combustible in King's Landing, perhaps remembering that one of the king's ancestors died from drinking wildfire, and urged the king to stop his research.  Unfortunately, in his zeal, while making a point with his sword for greater effect, Ser Jaime's weapon found itself in the king's back, thereby leading to Ser Jaime's unkind, and unfair, nickname.  Fortunately, the king's successor, King Robert, saw fit to pardon Ser Jaime.

 

It was during the time of King Robert that Ser Jaime's thoughts turned to genetics.  After conducting numerous experiments, Ser Jaime conclusively proved that blond hair is a recessive trait.  Initially this was met by widespread skepticism, if not indifference.  Gradually, however, the merit of Ser Jaime's work was such that his results became widely accepted, by even the dimmest of Northerners.

 

Currently, Ser Jaime had developed a new found interest in prosthetics, and his initial experimental data indicates that not only can't Lannisters shit gold, they can't wipe with it either.

[jellysalmon]

Now that some time has passed since RapeGate 2014. I'm not sure what to think of Jaime going forward. When the scene happened I was pretty upset since Jaime is one of my favorite characters in the show and in the books. I tried to explain it away with poor editing/directing and that made it look non-consensual. But no. It wasn't. Somehow last week's episode made it worse. His scenes with Tyrion and Bronn are so lighthearted and breezy. It makes him come off as more of a sociopath to do that and then just go and hang out with the boys. And then his interaction with Cersei is doubly worrisome. Not even a mention? I'm not sure if he's ruined forever for me (I guess we'll see as the show goes on) but he's definitely knocked out of the top of my personal power rankings. 

[bluvelvet]

Jaime is still my favorite character, I have just decided to ignore Rapegate 2014 for the time being. That being said, I could change my mind at anytime forward depending on his interactions with Cersei going forward.

[NoWillToResist]

 

And then his interaction with Cersei is doubly worrisome. Not even a mention?

 

Truthfully, I didn't expect Cersei to call him out on it. I felt that her main objection was with the circumstances rather than the sex itself.

 

And IMO she really only gave him the stink-eye in the last episode because he'd gone to see Tyrion and wouldn't commit to killing either him or Sansa. I would dearly love to know how she'd have reacted to Jaime had he been all "yeah, I went to talk with him and I'll kill him. Just planning a way to make it look like an accident, babe." Would she have been sweet as pie to him then?

[Lady S.]

I didn't get much one way or the other from their latest scene, but apparently Lena agrees with Nikolaj that it was more complicated in the sept scene.

[bluvelvet]

Where can I find Lena's comment on the scene ?

I think Cersei knew Jaime would refuse to kill Sansa.

[Lady S.]

Where can I find Lena's comment on the scene ?

Here. The interview in its entirety is kinda spoilery though, because Lena brings up things from the books or alludes to Cersei's plot in them (which she's never read, but she said in another thing that her mother has). Anyway, when asked flat-out if Cersei consented, she refuses to gives a direct answer trying not to incite more criticism then just rambles on like this:

I came from this place of grieving and a need to feel connected and alive and you know, this is the only other person, probably the only person she has ever trusted in the world. And she’s shunned Jaime and he’s never stopped loving her and in that moment she’s embracing and she’s rejecting of him in the same breath and you know, if I had not have said “not now, not here,” you know, if there were silence I don’t know how people would have reacted, you know what I mean? But it’s tricky, man, because we could go into this for a long time, I could get personal, we could…you know what I mean? It’s a real fucker of a situation. And I also think, you know, without being too much of a twat about it, we’re talking about a show with dragons, incest, babies taken by zombies, you know…

[bluvelvet]

Thanks for the link.

[CletusMusashi]

I'm very on board with the "Cersei brings out the worst in him" factor. Not that he's a saint anyway, but things like raping somebody next to their dead son, or kicking a kid out a window, are not every day occurrences  for him. He's still guilty. She doesn't have some magical hypnotic eye-beam that turns him evil. But she is, very definitely, a trigger. Hardly the only trigger, but possibly the strongest.

And Jaime knows this. It didn't click in for me until this season, when he was still stuck working around the castle day after day without any twincest action- but, he joined the Kingsguard before Cersei was there. He served under the Targaryan regime. Which means that 20 years or whatever ago, he actually did volunteer for a life of celibacy, away from the temptation of his crazy evil sister.

And then she married Robert, and so she is still right there making things complicated. And evil. 

Because, to paraphrase "Order of the Stick," Jaime isn't the good twin, he's the neutral twin.

And whenever you mix neutral with evil, you get more evil.

Edited May 9, 2014 by CletusMusashi

[Constantinople]

...things like raping somebody next to their dead son, or kicking a kid out a window, are not every day occurrences  for him.

Jeffrey Dahmer took days off too.

[Lady S.]

And he was already far from Cersei as Robb's prisoner, yet he still murdered his cousin to get back to twincest. So it's really more priorities than proximity. But I like the neutral twin who can mix with good or evil classification better than the good twin controlled by Cersei's Evil Vagina. There is no good Jaime who saves innocents and bad Jaime who murders people for the sake of fucking his sister. It's all the same Jaime in varying circumstances. S4 Jaime is a modified S1 Jaime still S1 Jaime. I feel like one of the more important thematic quotes in this series actually comes from Stannis: "A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good." Consensual incest in a holy place next to nephew/son's corpse should still be considered a low point, but it doesn't stop him from making somewhat good choices about Tyrion and Sansa. Comparison to an addict hitting rock bottom would be a good one. An addict is always considered an addict, right? One day at a time? I don't think Jaime will truly get over his Cersei as long as she's still alive, any more than I believe Don Draper will truly succeed in getting his shit together.

Edited May 10, 2014 by Lady S.

[bluvelvet]

I wonder how Jaime feels about having sex with and procreating with someone who isn't Cersei.  I also found it interesting that Mr "so many oaths" essentially made another oath to his father.

[Lady S.]

Cersei no longer wanting much to do with him probably makes that option more appealing and less scary than it was before. The only thing he's really giving up is spending time with the son he already has, which is less of a sacrifice. But my thinking is Jaime never really did never want kids at all, so he wouldn't be any more interested in legitimate children.

[CletusMusashi]

Also, there was kind of a gun pointed to his (brother's) head. With the extremely debatable exception of Brienne, Tyrion is the closest thing to a platonic best friend that Jaime has. Even extremely socially flawed people like having the option of company, and the fussier they are about who qualifies then the more value they assign to those who pass the test. Another debatable issue is whether that counts an exception to selfishness or merely an example of it.

But, yeah, I think Jaime's gonna have to fight someone next week. Hopefully The Mountain, but as sadistic as this show is it wouldn't surprise me if they decide to hit us with a lose/lose situation like making the court choose Bron.

[bluvelvet]

Just a random thought about Jaime's in regards to his "smarts", I actually think Jaime is quite intelligent (not as smart as Tyrion) but he just is too lazy to exercise his brain power.  I have thought that since season 1.

 

That being said, Tywin totally manipulated the Tyrion situation to get Jaime to heel, a fact he realized during his conversation. I must confess though, that when he initially said that the line would live on through him, I thought he was about to confess that Tommen and Myrcella were his children.

[Lady S.]

Just a random thought about Jaime's in regards to his "smarts", I actually think Jaime is quite intelligent (not as smart as Tyrion) but he just is too lazy to exercise his brain power.  I have thought that since season 1.

Yeah, that's about what I think, normally he chooses to use his brawn instead of his brain, but his mind isn't that slow and he can use it just fine when he wants to. He's no Ron Burgundy, fellow bear pit jumper and guy who drinks milk outside on a hot day. A truly dumb person probably wouldn't have put the pieces together as soon as Tywin said done. Tyrion never even claims to be more naturally intelligent than his siblings, just that he works at keeping his mind sharp the way Jaime sharpens his sword. Jaime's no great thinker, but he's not purely a man of action, I think that's a bit simplistic.

Edited May 16, 2014 by Lady S.

[Independent George]

None of the Lannisters are actually dumb (except Joffrey, praised be thy name). They just all have weaknesses which offset their intelligence to varying degrees.

Tywin - brilliant, but also arrogant and dismissive towards anything that doesn't conform to his worldview.

Tyrion - also brilliant, but somewhat undisciplined and self-loathing.

Jaime - rather smart, but impulsive and lazy. He can't think beyond forty seconds (on a good day).

Cersei - rather smart, but narcissistic and emotional. She can't think beyond her own personal needs.

Joffrey - dumb, dumb, dumb.

We haven't seen enough of Tommen and Myrcella to discuss without delving into book material.

[Conan Troutman]

Jamie's song:

 

She came to me she had a thirst for red wine,
She saw my sculpture and she wanted mine,
That's where I
Thought "Oh my"
She told me that our Dad was loaded
I said "In that case I want a red hot bromance."
She said "Fine."
And in thirty seconds time she said

 

"I want to sleep with my own brother,
I want to do whatever my own brother does,
I want to sleep with my own brother,
I want to sleep with my own brother,
like you."

 

Well what else could I do -
I said "I'll see what I can do."

 

I took her to Ned's beheading
I don't know why but I had to start it somewhere
So it started there.
I said pretend you've got no money
She just laughed and said
"Oh you're so funny."
I said "yeah?"
And in that moment some voice spoke to me:
"Are you sure?"

 

You want to bang you're sister?
You want to see what highborn people can't see,
You look at her like you missed her,
You want to see what incest can be?"

 

But she didn't understand,
She just smiled and held my hand.

 

Was on the road when it made just *chop*
Cut my hand and got no job
I'm not even some Kingsguard fool
Pretend  I could have Ser Meryn schooled

But still you'll never get it right,
When you're laid besides the Sept alright,
With our dead bastard 'bove us all
If you call your Dad he could stop it all.

 

I want to sleep with my own sister,
I want to do whatever Cersei does
But I don't want to kill my brother
Even if she says I must.

 

 

Because that's nothing I would do.

Edited May 17, 2014 by Conan Troutman

[fantique]

I apologise, this is sooo long. I am trying to catch up. I am new to this (Both Previously.tv and GoT) and speed watched season 1-4 so I might have a few things wrong but so far this what I have thought of Jaime Lannister. Interestingly, he as a character did not draw me in immediately. I saw him as a way to further the plot but I feared his development would be little to nonexistent. Also I am an Unsullied so I appreciate the spoiler tabs.

Season 1: Total creepster... Because Cersei at least showed reserve and regret about The Bran Situation. Stangely enough, I thought he was the "bad", reckless and obsessive twin who is taking advantage of his sister as she is a woman in a man's world. My pity went out the window when she started being dismissive of the Starks and then the Arya/Joffrey confrontation just did it for me. When they got to KL we saw that there was some kind of twisted honor to him and that he did feel alienated from the court where the Kingslayer whispers were never very far behind him. Still hated him, but I was already being convinced that maybe he was not as bad as I thought. While his actions against Ned Stark were deplorable and rash, at least I liked that he was outraged for Tyrion's predicament and since I thought Cat's vehemence unprudent and not very smart, I was glad to see repercussions of her actions relatively soon. His capture makes me happy for what it means for the Starks and the potential release of Sansa, but I am indifferent to what it means for him.

Season 2

Not very interesting for him, and I think he is pretty dumb to provoke Cat. I attributed that to his view that he would rather be killed than just waste away as a prisoner for his "honour" could not take it. I don't feel one way or another regarding his killing a guard, he is a war prisoner of course he will try to escape and if prevented at least try to take out his enemies. Things pick up a bit when he is freed by Cat and accompanied by Brienne but it's more a case of what happens to him rather than a self-driven development. At least that odd pairing (I mean that in a non romantic way) promises to deliver some insights into who he is as a knight, also the question of whether he honors the promise made to Catelyn because after all 'a Lannister always pays his debts'.

Season 3

Funny exchanges between him and Brienne and of course he tries to shift the balance of power from her to him. There is an interesting parallel between his many Oaths and her shift of "masters". They both are valliant fighters who are in a stange position where they are not integrated well into the Knights' folds. She is presented as a paragon of Honour while he is a mistrusted Oathbreaker. Obviously that's all she knows of him and has no reason to trust/respect/like him. As if instant karma, he tries to get her sword and get away (?) and they get captured. But then he saves her from rape (which hints a bit more at a decent side of him since as a man of war and raised in Westeros, he could be completely indifferent to the possibility). Their dynamic definitely shifts to that of people who at least cautiously respect and trust each other in the short term. And of course... fighting hand going bye bye. Interesting because his fighting is so intrisic to his identity and pride. It affects him for once his on method of solving problems will not work and he looses faith. Brienne tries to encourage him as gratitude for saving her from rape. Brienne helps us unveil a different side of him, he is no longer cocky. Still biting but less false bravado (is there any other kind?). The reveal of his time under the Mad King show that a lot of his extreme tendencies also come from an environment that has been hostile and killing seemed to be THE solution. It also hints that there are times when he actually thinks of the big picture and does not just live in the Lannister bubble. They get separated and when he realises that she might die he goe sback to save Brienne. To me that showed compassion, and the ability to get over the loss of his pride through his fighting hand. He could have just as easily been shown to feel despair over her predicament but not act because he is not the strong knight he used to be. The one good thing about him being reckless is that it feels like a selfless act and does not reek of ulterior motive. It also sollidifies the relationship between Brienne and him. It gave me hope that there will be more to him than an ex-soldier with twincest drama and maybe even make me root for him. He arrives in KL and I am really excited to see the disillusion that will accompny his loss of status and perfection in the Lannister household and Cersei's eyes.

Season 4: To me, I see it as an opportunity for Jaime to truly open his eyes. He tris to go back to his old life but reality comes crashing down pretty quickly. Cersei is hot'n'cold with him. He is her safety net but at the same time his loss of perfection is an affront to her. She only gets territorial when she sees Brienne and realises she is a threat, because a lot of Jaime's dependence on her is rooted in the fact that she promises him unconditional love as they were born together. Brienne being a source of comfort will jeopardise that hold. He starts to see her colours because he now has other option for emotional support. He still loves her, but she also has lost he perfection in his eyes. Then comes the death of Joffrey (YAY!! :D) and THAT SCENE. I don't know how I feel about that... The producers and actors seem to see it more as a desperate act between to people who feel helpless and powerless. Cersei's refusal seems to be more about the propriety than the act itself.

Originally in the book the scene is clearly not depicted to be a rape so that points me towards it not being a rape

I think editing made it feel more dubious than intended. Past that, with the situation turning for worse with Tyrion and Sansa's escape; we see he is trying to uphold his promise to Catelyn Stark and ensure Sansa's safety. I like that he is defying Cersei and finally showing that he has others he is loyal to and that when push comes to shove he is not always going to be on her side. The trial, the deal with tywin (although pretty, but I am happy he seemed to realise as he got Tywin's ready acceptance) helped sollidify that stance... I must admit they are making me kind of like the bastard. AS for not being Tyrion's champion, I think he is really tempted to fight and lose to spite Tywin but it is no use because that would also mean Tyrion's death. He loves his brother more than he rensts his father, and I like that. I also like that Tyrion is getting more emotional and impulsive while Jaime is becoming a bit more reasonable and patient.

 

Redemption arc: that might be a strange view but I don't think GRRM is trying for one. At least not in the traditional sense, because redemption presumes polarity of "good" and "bad" characters and he tries very hard not to have anyone be only one or the other. Because in this universe good just means good for one side and bad for another. So redemption would mean we have some kind of standard to join the "good" club. I think it's more like an arc of emancipation. I think that (hopefully) by the end, whether alive or dead, Jaime will be someone who we will judge less by his reactions and links to others but by what we perceive to be his beliefs and principles. The way I see it, everytime the development of Jaime is discussed we talk more about his interactions with others and how he affects characters we like and dislike than what we feel his thought processes and motivations are (or we attribute them to his link with Cersei). I think the cutting of the hand was genius because it allowed to change fundamentally who he is and his concept of self-worth so I now think of that point as the chiasm between 'Old Jaime' and 'New Jaime (ie.; more interesting)'.

Edited May 20, 2014 by fantique

[Lady S.]

Season 3

Funny exchanges between him and Brienne and of course he tries to shift the balance of power from her to him. There is an interesting parallel between his many Oaths and her shift of "masters". They both are valliant fighters who are in a stange position where they are not integrated well into the Knights' folds. She is presented as a paragon of Honour while he is a mistrusted Oathbreaker. Obviously that's all she knows of him and has no reason to trust/respect/like him. As if instant karma, he tries to get her sword and get away (?) and they get captured. But then he saves her from rape (which hints a bit more at a decent side of him since as a man of war and raised in Westeros, he could be completely indifferent to the possibility).

Unless it was a guy like Gregor, I'd think not wanting to listen to a woman being gang-raped and then killed would be a natural feeling. Even if you're generally resigned to the ways of war, being a casual bystander should be an unpleasant experience. Jaime had to stand by and think of Cersei's naked body while the Mad King burned people alive in front of him, and he didn't enjoy that part of the job. With Brienne's capture, the innocent party was someone he was coming to respect as an almost-knight, and he doesn't have to sit by without saying a word, he can try to do something with an easy lie without knowing something bad might happen to him.

 

Redemption arc: that might be a strange view but I don't think GRRM is trying for one. At least not in the traditional sense, because redemption presumes polarity of "good" and "bad" characters and he tries very hard not to have anyone be only one or the other. Because in this universe good just means good for one side and bad for another. So redemption would mean we have some kind of standard to join the "good" club. I think it's more like an arc of emancipation. I think that (hopefully) by the end, whether alive or dead, Jaime will be someone who we will judge less by his reactions and links to others but by what we perceive to be his beliefs and principles. The way I see it, everytime the development of Jaime is discussed we talk more about his interactions with others and how he affects characters we like and dislike than what we feel his thought processes and motivations are (or we attribute them to his link with Cersei). I think the cutting of the hand was genius because it allowed to change fundamentally who he is and his concept of self-worth so I now think of that point as the chiasm between 'Old Jaime' and 'New Jaime (ie.; more interesting)'.

I like this definition of emancipation vs. redemption, and I do believe GRRM isn't interested in a straight divide between heroes and villains. That's why we have Theon and the Lannisters as main characters, they're clearly drawn with understandable motives and even sympathetic moments rather than just enjoying being bad to the bone. But GRRM is full of shit if/when he claims there are no straight-up bad guys. I very much doubt we're seriously expected to see Ramsay's bastard angst as a mitigating circumstance for his psychopathy. Ramsay, Gregor, Roose, Craster, Walder Frey, Karl the fooking legend of Gin Alley, and the goons falling on Sandor and Arya's murder journey are all presented as straight up villains. On Racefortheironthrone's read-along, GRRM is differentiated from Tolkien as being interested in portraying a Human Evil rather than Evil as a force of its own. For instance, Craster is involved with the supernatural, but its the daughter raping and son abandoning that makes him despicable even without knowing about the "cold gods" worshipping. We don't really know enough about the white walkers, but what we've seen indicates a species with its own goals and motivations, but not that their species hates all human goodness and seeks ultimate power. We have Tywin and Littlefinger for that. ;) And in Ramsay and Gregor and Karl and other goons, we have Human Evil taken to Criminal Minds-level psychopathy showing the worst that human beings are capable of, with no sympathetic motivations. Jaime is an interesting character because I do think he's written with more inner conflict than Tywin or Cersei, he has a very warped sense of honor that I don't consider admirable but his beliefs are important to him, the idea of a pure and true knight still appeals to him but no longer as a personal ambition, he's capable of great deeds for people who mean something to him but he's not a "good guy", he's a guy who fucks his sister next to the corpse of their son with no regrets about the murdering people to be with her. Edited May 20, 2014 by Lady S.

[fantique]

Unless it was a guy like Gregor, I'd think not wanting to listen to a woman being gang-raped and then killed would be a natural feeling. Even if you're generally resigned to the ways of war, being a casual bystander should be an unpleasant experience. Jaime had to stand by and think of Cersei's naked body while the Mad King burned people alive in front of him, and he didn't enjoy that part of the job. With Brienne's capture, the innocent party was someone he was coming to respect as an almost-knight, and he doesn't have to sit by without saying a word, he can try to do something with an easy lie without knowing something bad might happen to him.

Lady S. Thanks.

I guess I was trying to understand why before he seemed (to me, but I was paying little attention and sometimes switching off during his scenes) the one dimensional villain that is just weird and fucked up. And saving her from rape was like something most people like 'Oh! he's not that bad then' for doing what we would expect any normal person to do. I think I was glad to see evidence of him acting like a "civillian" because before that most of his attributes were just not moderate or what I think of a "real" character, he felt caricature-ish for a bit... Cersei for all her faults seemed real to me, like the mother of a serial killer who just added fuel to the fire but had no idea that their child could ever turn out like that.

In the book, Cersei ordered the killing of Robert's bastards but on the show it was Joffrey.

The lengths he went to shocked her, the beheading of Ned Stark, his treatment of Sansa,etc.

 

And yeah, GRRM did not make ALL his characters as deep as possible but I am happy the main ones we are supposed to be invested in (if not, at least intrigued with regards to how they affect the ones we care most about) do show variety because there is just so bloody much out there right now I just have to be more selective about what I watch.

Edited May 20, 2014 by SilverStormm
Tagged book talk

[BlackberryJam]

I'm not sure just anyone would have been able to save Brienne from gang rape.  He was tied up and it was only his lie to Locke that saved her.  Would the Hound have been able to save her?  Probably not.  Sure, any decent person would have tried to, probably by trying to break their chains, but few would have succeeded.  The quick thinking of Jaime and ability to sell the lie is what saved Brienne. 

 

Jaime also listened to Robert banging whores in Season One and probably had to listen to Robert banging Cersei as well.  Not to mention the insinuations of what went on between Aerys and his wife.  So it's not like he hasn't been in that position before. 

 

The thing with Jaime is that after the reveal in Season Three, his interactions in Season One come through so much differently.  Particularly, his scene in the Throne Room with Ned.  He says in that scene that killing the Mad King felt like justice.  Ned insults him for it, although Ned was also snarky about Jaime watching Ned's relatives get burned alive and doing nothing about it.

 

Jaime, of all characters, seems to want power the least.  He could have taken the Throne when he killed Aerys.  He didn't.  He could have gotten himself named Hand.  He didn't.  He could rule be the Warden of the West and instead became a Kingsguard.  So, when you find out his act of killing Aerys wasn't part of the Lannister power move, it's makes him so much more interesting.

 

Jaime is not a good person.  The Bran pushing and sisterfucking let us know he will never been the good guy or the hero.  But he's certainly not the one note villain he may have appeared in Season One. 

 

Season Two Jaime was just enjoying being a snarky bastard.  His imprisonment was not going to improve.  He wasn't going to beg for mercy.  I liked him tied to a post and filthy.  I loved his interactions with Catelyn.  It was more about him giving zero fucks for her opinion.  He invited Catelyn to kill him, and I'm not sure he would have minded if she did.

 

NCW does an excellent job with the role and I find myself interested in his every scene, despite the horrid new hair.  I'm interested in where his story goes because I can't predict it.  He's not going to win the Iron Throne, definitely, but will he survive?  Will he die a hero?  A villain?  A martyr?  At 80 years old with a belly full of wine?  Doubt that last one.  Too many people want his head on a pike.

Edited May 20, 2014 by BlackberryJam

[Constantinople]

I'm interested in where his story goes because I can't predict it.  He's not going to win the Iron Throne, definitely, but will he survive?  Will he die a hero?  A villain?  A martyr?  At 80 years old with a belly full of wine?  Doubt that last one.  Too many people want his head on a pike.

 

 

If Daenerys ever makes it to Westeros, I'd think Headless Jaime would be highly likely.  Though Jaime might consider going to the Night's Watch a worse punishment than death.

[dramachick]

Also I am an Unsullied so I appreciate the spoiler tabs.

 

How can you be an Unsullied when you have spoilers in your posts?  What does it mean to be Unsullied?

[fantique]

How can you be an Unsullied when you have spoilers in your posts?  What does it mean to be Unsullied?

Unsullied means I have not read the books. The spoilers were to hide comments like it's "it's different in the book" and such. I only know that becaus it was mentioned in an interview and it affects the characterization in oast events. But yeah...

[Mya Stone]

Unsullied means I have not read the books. The spoilers were to hide comments like it's "it's different in the book" and such. I only know that becaus it was mentioned in an interview and it affects the characterization in oast events. But yeah...

Hey there @fantique - Unsullied is actually a quite different beast here. We would call you unspoiled. ;) I'll shoot you a pm to not derail this thread.

[fantique]

Hey there @fantique - Unsullied is actually a quite different beast here. We would call you unspoiled. ;) I'll shoot you a pm to not derail this thread.

OK thanks! I literally just learnt what a trope is so I am definitely in need of a vocab lesson

[BlackberryJam]

If Daenerys ever makes it to Westeros, I'd think Headless Jaime would be highly likely.  Though Jaime might consider going to the Night's Watch a worse punishment than death.

 

Oh, I think if Jaime could go on another roadtrip with Brienne to get to the Wall, he'd gladly join the Night's Watch.

[bluvelvet]

Would the Nights Watch be so different from the Kingsguard though? They swear similar oaths, although living in Kings Landing is probably a lot more comfortable.

[Lady S.]

Well, the Kingsguard had the benefit of Cersei nearby for the past 19 years, though that's not such a benefit anymore. Also the freezing cold would probably be a very big difference. This is as good a time to ask as any, what is the protocol regarding the DVD histories and the info on the HBO viewers' guide? Both have info about Jaime joining the Kingsguard.

Edited May 21, 2014 by Lady S.

[Mya Stone]

Well, the Kingsguard had the benefit of Cersei nearby for the past 19 years, though that's not such a benefit anymore. Also the freezing cold would probably be a very big difference. This is as good a time to ask as any, what is the protocol regarding the DVD histories and the info on the HBO viewers' guide? Both have info about Jaime joining the Kingsguard.

It's fine to discuss with no spoiler tag here.

[Constantinople]

Would the Nights Watch be so different from the Kingsguard though? They swear similar oaths, although living in Kings Landing is probably a lot more comfortable.

Better food, better accommodations, better weather, better leisure activities, no tiresome ranging beyond the Wall. Plus, since Jaime can't fight any better than a stable hand, there's a good chance he'd end up in the Stewards.

[Lady S.]

It's fine to discuss with no spoiler tag here.

Cool. Cool, cool, cool.

Add the HBO appendix (which I think is new?) has "Reign of Madness" as the first heading in the section about Robert's Rebellion, which tells who Jaime was meant to marry before joining the Kingsguard. (Or at least hints, but there's only two possibilities and one of them was already spoken for.)

There's definitely a comparison to be made between the Night's Watch and the Kingsguard. Just look at Jaime's scene with Jon Snow in s1. "Have you taken your vows, then?" "Soon enough." "Give my regards to the Night's Watch. I'm sure it'll be thrilling to serve in such an elite force, and if not...it's only for life."

[mac123x]

If Daenerys ever makes it to Westeros, I'd think Headless Jaime would be highly likely.  Though Jaime might consider going to the Night's Watch a worse punishment than death.

 

For a moment I was wondering what she'd have against him in particular.  "Oh, right, the whole King-slaying thing."  I guess I really have developed some sympathy for him despite some of his despicable actions.

[bluvelvet]

We haven't seen Jaime much so I appreciate any scene, I must admit I winder if he ever told daddy dearest about the man who tried to "touch" him or he took care of the man himself.

Edited June 4, 2014 by bluvelvet

[BlackberryJam]

Growing up Lannister sounded like a nightmare.  Gropy maesters, penis-pinching sisters, dead mother and constantly disappointed father.

 

That should be a sitcom.

[DigitalCount]

Isn't it already? I thought that was what we were watching.

[BlackberryJam]

Isn't it already? I thought that was what we were watching.

 

Sitcoms aren't quite this bloody.  Usually.  Wait, there might be some BritComs out there.  Avine Aviation and all.  But that was more variety?  Tywin Lannister in a Carol Burnett role.  Wearing a dress with a curtain rod through it.  Now I could get behind that.

 

Or a Cersei/Robert/Jaime/Tyrion show staring Myrcella.  My Two Dads and One Point Five Uncles.

[Independent George]

Sitcoms aren't quite this bloody. Usually. Wait, there might be some BritComs out there. Avine Aviation and all. But that was more variety? Tywin Lannister in a Carol Burnett role. Wearing a dress with a curtain rod through it. Now I could get behind that.

Or a Cersei/Robert/Jaime/Tyrion show staring Myrcella. My Two Dads and One Point Five Uncles.

Blackadder V: Westeros. How awesome would that be?

[TooMuchCoffee]

I was thinking more along the lines of Real Housewives of Westeros. 

[Lady S.]

I was thinking more along the lines of Real Housewives of Westeros.

Taking to the House Lannister thread.

[Hecate7]

I never said Jaime lied.  I said his story didn't make sense.  Jaime might actually believe it, but that doesn't mean it's accurate.

I also never said he was evil.  He's simply not redeemed his bad acts by telling one bathhouse story which mostly went along the lines of "Poor Me" and "Pots of wildfire magically flew about King's Landing without anyone noticing".

The assumption that people always notice things bothers me. Especially the assumption that the more important and top secret something is, the more likely people are to notice it.

 

People don't notice Jaime sleeping with Cersei until Ned sends a message to Stannis and Stannis broadcasts it all over the entire world. Until then, it didn't strike anyone as odd that golden-haired Cersei Lannister had three blonde children, or that the world's most eligible bachelor was in the King's Guard.

 

Who would be watching to see if "pots of wildfire magically flew around King's Landing?" Who would be checking the pots to see what was inside them? Exactly how is it suspicious if pots of anything are being transported? Oil for lamps, water for livestock, and other fluids in pots probably "fly around the city" transported by carts and horses all the time in builk. Why would anyone see anything suspicious about some pots of wildfire? It's not like they're labelled or anything.

 

And no, I don't think anyone actually removed them. Cersei knew of them because Jaime did, and he tells her everything. Nobody else knew of them, because they were not in Jaime's confidence on that same level. Tyrion found out completely by accident, and not by looking at a cart going down the street, either.

[Lady S.]

I think Aerys's pots of wildfire are a Chekov's gun and King's Landing will eventually go boom, at least I hope.

[Constantinople]

The assumption that people always notice things bothers me. Especially the assumption that the more important and top secret something is, the more likely people are to notice it.

 

People don't notice Jaime sleeping with Cersei until Ned sends a message to Stannis and Stannis broadcasts it all over the entire world. Until then, it didn't strike anyone as odd that golden-haired Cersei Lannister had three blonde children, or that the world's most eligible bachelor was in the King's Guard.

There's a difference between what people notice and what people discuss publicly, or even privately when they're concerned about spies. The absence of public discussion about something doesn't mean people have overlooked it. Jon Arryn, Littlefinger, Varys, Illyrio Mopatis & Pycelle knew about Jaime and Cersei. For that matter, I believe Tyrion may have suspected as well. Even Sansa intuited something was different about Joffrey and Robert. That fact Ned the Dim figured it out in about 3 episodes, albeit with Littlefinger's help, suggests that that many people much smarter than Ned noticed it as well. But being smarter than Ned, they shut their mouths.

 

Who would be watching to see if "pots of wildfire magically flew around King's Landing?" Who would be checking the pots to see what was inside them? Exactly how is it suspicious if pots of anything are being transported? Oil for lamps, water for livestock, and other fluids in pots probably "fly around the city" transported by carts and horses all the time in builk. Why would anyone see anything suspicious about some pots of wildfire? It's not like they're labelled or anything.

Jaime said pots of wildfire were placed beneath the Sept of Baelor, the slums of Fleabottom, under houses, stables, taverns. Even beneath the Red Keep itself. That's an odd place to store oil for lamps or water for livestock. Moreover, depositing pots of wildfire all over King's Landing would be a huge exercise requiring a huge amount of labor. Some of the people performing the labor will know, some will wonder, some will find it odd that they're transporting pots from the pyromancers all over the city. Some of those people will talk over 20 years.

It's no more likely that everyone was completely oblivious than no word has leaked out that the last Lannister gold mine went dry 3 years ago.

Without corroborating evidence, I'm not buying it on Jaime's say so.

 

And no, I don't think anyone actually removed them. Cersei knew of them because Jaime did, and he tells her everything. Nobody else knew of them, because they were not in Jaime's confidence on that same level. Tyrion found out completely by accident, and not by looking at a cart going down the street, either.

When Tyrion was preparing the city's defenses in anticipation of Stannis's attack, Lancel told him that Cersei was making wildfire, and that the alchemists had thouands of pots stored in their vaults. Pyromancer Hallyne showed Tyrion one of their vaults, told Tyrion that the alchemists had been working tirelessly day and night ever since Cersei commanded them to do so, and that their current count was 7,811. No one said anything about using wildfire left over from the Mad King's alleged plan to blow up King's Landing.

[lawless]

Jaime said pots of wildfire were placed beneath the Sept of Baelor, the slums of Fleabottom, under houses, stables, taverns. Even beneath the Red Keep itself. That's an odd place to store oil for lamps or water for livestock. Moreover, depositing pots of wildfire all over King's Landing would be a huge exercise requiring a huge amount of labor. Some of the people performing the labor will know, some will wonder, some will find it odd that they're transporting pots from the pyromancers all over the city. Some of those people will talk over 20 years.

It's no more likely that everyone was completely oblivious than no word has leaked out that the last Lannister gold mine went dry 3 years ago.

I think you have to go with "a wizard did it" on this one.

I think the books and Show mean for Jaime to be telling the truth about it

, but all the logic flaws you mentioned are real.

 

However, it's possible that a young teenaged Jaime honestly believed it was true, and acted accordingly, but that it was actually just crazy Aerys' fantasy, and his pyromancer made stuff up to indulge him. 

Edited June 11, 2014 by SilverStormm
Please spoiler tag book talk - some unspoiled members may not want to know what the books intend.

[Lady S.]

Jaime said pots of wildfire were placed beneath the Sept of Baelor, the slums of Fleabottom, under houses, stables, taverns. Even beneath the Red Keep itself. That's an odd place to store oil for lamps or water for livestock. Moreover, depositing pots of wildfire all over King's Landing would be a huge exercise requiring a huge amount of labor. Some of the people performing the labor will know, some will wonder, some will find it odd that they're transporting pots from the pyromancers all over the city. Some of those people will talk over 20 years.

It's no more likely that everyone was completely oblivious than no word has leaked out that the last Lannister gold mine went dry 3 years ago.

Without corroborating evidence, I'm not buying it on Jaime's say so.

If your problem is more thinking this feels dumb rather than thinking Jaime made it all up to impress Brienne, then why believe the gold mines are dry on Tywin's say-so?

[BlackberryJam]

I've read that theory before when it was posted, the theory that Jaime lied.  It still doesn't hold up to scrutiny.  I think there are plenty of reasons to hate Jaime (and those are most of the reasons that I love him), but this idea that he killed Aerys for kicks and lied to Brienne doesn't make sense.  I go back to this post I made in this thread on page 1, March 28.

 

There are ton of practicality issues through the book and the series.  I mean, in just the last episode, did none of the Night's Watch notice the campfires of the wildlings?  Did they not send out scouts?  How come they only noticed when the fire was massive? Seriously

 

Why was the Mountain killing peasants?  Did they just give him people for murder practice?  Did not make sense.

 

This is the same series where Jaime banging Cersei is scandal but Aerys marrying his sister is business as usual.  Yes, I know, Cersei was married to the king, but the way they have Olenna talking to Tywin about incest as if it's the great Satan is ridiculous considering the history of the Crown. I loved DR and CD in the scene but was rolling my eyes.

 

Oh oh, and Roose Bolton can get his psycho son legitimized but super honorable yet beheads innocent men Ned doesn't even ask his best friend to legitimize Jon Snow. 

 

Not to mention Catelyn Stark arresting the Queen's brother on the word of a brothel owner.  That still makes me want to bang my head into a desk.

 

The issue about the wildfyre is left unresolved.  How much was made and how much was found.  There's no definitive answer, but considering all other things, it's more likely that Jaime was telling the truth, or at least the truth as he believed it to be, rather than lying.

Edited June 11, 2014 by BlackberryJam

[Lady S.]

Oh oh, and Roose Bolton can get his psycho son legitimized but super honorable yet beheads innocent men Ned doesn't even ask his best friend to legitimize Jon Snow.

Taking to the House Stark thread.