Jaime Lannister: The Kingslayer

[JaimeNotJamie]

I agree that Jaime has some duty regarding Sansa.  The trickier question is determining what he's supposed to do.  His specific vow was that he would return her (and Arya) to Cat.  Cat is dead.  Now I would say that wouldn't absolve him of it if there was a discernible other place to send her, but Robb and the Stark forces were essentially eliminated.  Winterfell is in ruins. Bran and Rickon are assumed dead.  Brynden is on the run and AWOL, and Edmure is rotting in a dungeon at The Twins.  By my count she has one living relative in an established position: Lysa, and Lysa is insane.  I think you can make a colorable argument that Tyrion is her best chance for protection & that disrupting that actually endangers Sansa, as she likely wouldn't last a minute in a Bolton controlled North or a Frey controlled Riverlands. 

So I think he does have some duty to protect her or act in her best interest, I'm just not sure what that is.

[NoWillToResist]

 

One option is to accede to his father's demand and take over as Lord of Casterly Rock on the condition that he bring Tyrion (and Sansa) back with him.

But didn't Tyrion introduce himself to Oberyn's party as the...uh...guy in charge of KL's money (can't remember the official title)? He has a royal job to do...I doubt Tywin would let Tyrion leave.

I like the idea of Jaime, Tyrion and Sansa leaving KL together...I just don't see it as an option for any of them. But if they could, I'd insist that Brienne go too, to 'protect' Sansa. Can you imagine the snarkfest which would ensue with Brienne and Tyrion in the same room? HA!

[Lady S.]

Well, Tyrion has a duty in King's Landing, but he can still visit Casterly Rock if his wife is there in Jaime's custody, right? (Assuming Jaime's reading lessons with Tywin took place there when Tywin was Aerys's Hand. Seems like the Lannisters grew up there instead of at court.) Or they could just find another Master of Coin, Tyrion basically got the job to fill an opening and give him something to do. The point is, Jaime's not even trying to sound out the options, but he does feel confident to speak his mind to Tywin for his own interests. Agreeing to help Cat at swordpoint doesn't mean anything, but he chose to affirm the vow to Brienne before leaving Harrenhal. He's gotten back to King's Landing, almost intact, the ball's in his court now. I can only think that's why Brienne hasn't introduced herself to Sansa, she wants to know she can help her and she can't exactly insert herself into Sansa's Lannister household. And taking a page from Sandor's book and just snatching her up to go wandering isn't the best idea either.

Edited April 10, 2014 by Lady S.

[Independent George]

Just as an aside, I think this thread title should really be Ser Jaime Lannister: the Kingslayer. After all, whatever else he is, he's still a knight...

[sev]

^ Stannis! :D

[BlackberryJam]

Tyrion is the Master of Coin.  So that makes him the guy in charge of the money.  He can't leave.

It's episode 1 and we've had Jaime's reunion conversations with Tywin and Cersei and a one minute scene involving him and Brienne discussing their oaths.  Unless this entire episode was going to be dedicated to Brienne, Jaime and Sansa, I'm not sure what else people are wanting.  I mean, I would watch the Brienne/Jaime/Arya/Hound bicker and killing hour, IF we could get Stannis doing an MST3K grammar correction every 3 minutes, but I'm not sure the rest of the viewing audience would be up for that.

The timeline from the books is messed up, having Jaime and Brienne back in King's Landing before Joffrey drinks the purple, so there is going to be some change in characterization and plot to accommodate that.

Jaime's current options are:

1.  Kidnap Sansa.  Set off for The Wall or The Vale (although he must know about Lysa Arryn being off her rocker since he would have known her in KL.)  Tywin or Joffrey would send men after them, and probably send the Mountain for good measure.  That is not a good option.

2.  Hire some sellswords to help Brienne kidnap Sansa.  Fake their deaths, maybe.  Have them set off for the Vale and crazy Lysa or set off for the Wall and Jon Snow.  Another risky plan.

3.  Leave the Kingsguard, get married (to Brienne! because that wedding/bedding is comedy gold).  Convince everyone (Tywin) to let him take Sansa away to Casterly Rock.  Instead of heading West, head North to take her to the Wall.  Of course, Tywin would put conditions on that like, "Sure, go to the Rock, once both Sansa and Brienne are pregnant with little Lannisters.  I demand heirs.  Get on that, you worthless idiots."  Oh, and he has to manage that around Cersei's jealousy and Joffrey's desire to torture Sansa. 

And he was supposed to do all this in episode 1, while at the same time getting a new hand, getting healthy, getting a bath, getting a decent meal and, you know it's been a year, trying to get laid.

Let's not forget that Sansa doesn't want to talk to people.  When she does talk to people, other than Margery and Olenna, she's said things like, "Joffrey is the bestest ever and I love him."  So they can't even trust her to do what's in her own best interest, which is to trust Brienne, a woman she doesn't know, and get the hell out of KL.

[mac123x]

What doesn't make sense to me is why Jamie's motive for king slaying has been kept secret. Did Jamie remove the wildfire that had been prepared around the city by himself? He had to have help, right?

It's explained much better in the books.

Aerys's plot was only known to a few pyromancers, and the wildfire was hidden all over town.  In order to stop them carrying it out, Jaime killed all of them. He killed the lead pyromancer (who was actually Hand of the King at the time), then Aerys.  He hunted down the remaining conspirators the next day to keep them from setting off the conflagration.

The problem was, no one knew where all the wildfire was located.  The various stores of "Aerys's fruits" kept cropping up over the years.  They discovered a stash under the Great Sept, in  a hidden store room under the Dragon Pit, etc.

Some of the wildfire that Tyrion used in the Battle of the Blackwater was from these hidden caches, though most of it was newly manufactured.  The older jars were considered more hazardous, because wildfire becomes more unstandle with age and the jars themselves become permeated with it.

By killing Aerys

and the pyromancers

, Jaime basically removed the trigger from the bomb without disposing of it.  He'd just prevented a massacre, and didn't want anyone else to know about these doomsday devices in case someone else went nuts and decided to set it off.  I interpreted that as his main motivation for keeping it to himself.  The pyromancers would have arranged for it to be easy to set off deliberately, but difficult to set off accidentally (in case it didn't need to be used).  From Jaime's perspective, it would have been more dangerous to have people actively searching for the wildfire than just letting it sit, particularly considering how chaotic Kings Landing was at the time.

[TigerLynx]

I mean, I would watch the Brienne/Jaime/Arya/Hound bicker and killing hour, IF we could get Stannis doing an MST3K grammar correction every 3 minutes, but I'm not sure the rest of the viewing audience would be up for that.

 

Add Tyrion, Bronn, and Sansa to the group, and I would watch.  If you could add the dragons to the group, minus Dany, so much the better.

Edited April 10, 2014 by TigerLynx

[BlackberryJam]

Tyrion and Bronn yes, Sansa NO.  I can only take so much weepy-eye-Joffrey-is-my-love-but-I-don't-mean-it.

Dragons yes but I agree on no Dany.

I enjoy Tywin and Olenna sparring.  Tywin can glare and look disdainful.  Olenna can snark. 

We all have our favorites.  I could do without Cersei, the Wildings, Jon Snow, the Red Woman and Littlefinger.  I know those scenes are needed for plot and to further the story, but I have no urge to watch them again. 

Jaime/Brienne/Arya/Hound on a road trip to the Wall would cause my fangirl heart to explode.

[Gudzilla]

I believe Ser Jaime Lannister the Kingslayers story because in season 1 Robert (I think) asks him what the last words of the mad king were, and without hesitation he replies "burn them all". Which is consistent with the story he later tells.

[joliefaire]

Poor Jaime, Kingslayer getting no respect--Tywin practically saying he's all but useless now, Cercei rebuffing his advances, Joffrey mocking him.  And now this, Lego Jaime.  No respect.  :P  

[bluvelvet]

*squints*

Wow is that Lego Jaime missing a "hand"...or a hook?

[Lady S.]

The behanding has lowered Jaime to the status Theon had back when he was still intact, getting no respect, least of all from his own family.

[Fen]

I agree that Jaime has some duty regarding Sansa.  The trickier question is determining what he's supposed to do.  His specific vow was that he would return her (and Arya) to Cat.  Cat is dead.  Now I would say that wouldn't absolve him of it if there was a discernible other place to send her, but Robb and the Stark forces were essentially eliminated.  Winterfell is in ruins. Bran and Rickon are assumed dead.  Brynden is on the run and AWOL, and Edmure is rotting in a dungeon at The Twins.  By my count she has one living relative in an established position: Lysa, and Lysa is insane.  I think you can make a colorable argument that Tyrion is her best chance for protection & that disrupting that actually endangers Sansa, as she likely wouldn't last a minute in a Bolton controlled North or a Frey controlled Riverlands.

 

I totally agree with this.  As far as Jaime knows, there are no Starks left.  Winterfell is not an option.  Riverrun is not an option.  Lysa is unreliable.  On top of that, any travel through Westeros at the current time is extremely dangerous.  As things stand, Sansa is in a city chock-full of guards, and married to Tyrion - whom Jaime trusts.  On top of that, she is now a Lannister.  Whatever conflicted feelings Jaime might have about his father and family name, he knows that being a Lannister means security and power.  Her current situation - to Jaime's mind - probably is in her best interests.

It's explained much better in the books.

 

So agree.  Much clearer; although, I have to say, I didn't feel like I was being directed to distrust Jaime in the bath scene.  If anything, he's feverish and at his lowest ebb - the truth is likely to spill out.

I think the books also hint more strongly at what it was like for Jaime in Aerys' household.  It's suggested that he saw and heard some terrible things.  In his manner now, he always reminds me of some of the depictions of WW1 survivors - whose ideals were so crushed by what they experienced that they became cynical and sarcastic of everything.

I did like how, in the most recent episode, Jaime reacted to Cersei's new and troubling behaviour by going out for a chat with Brienne.  He knows fine well that Brienne is implacable in her ideals, and I think this is in someway comforting to him.  As is the pigtail pulling he then indulged in.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Fen

[Danny Franks]

The behanding has lowered Jaime to the status Theon had back when he was still intact, getting no respect, least of all from his own family.

Well, it's also lowered him to the level Tyrion resides in. His family loathe him because he is physically 'less' than he should be, and that blinds them to his other qualities. Jaime has always been the image of perfection, which excused his other qualities. Now, that perfection has been ruined, and what he once did so well is something he is no longer capable of, so he doesn't get a pass any more when he says or does the wrong thing.

And I wonder if Tyrion might point out that fact, when the two of them share a scene. 

Meanwhile, Jaime hopefully continues on his quest to be the most sympathetic character in the whole bloody show. And Nikolaj Coster-Waldou is doing an amazing job with it all.

Edited April 13, 2014 by Danny Franks

[Constantinople]

Meanwhile, Jaime hopefully continues on his quest to be the most sympathetic character in the whole bloody show.

That quest has been terminated with extreme prejudice.

[bluvelvet]

Ahh Jaime, Jaime..Jaime *shakes head*

[galax-arena]

I know there's been a lot of debate re: Jamie and whether he was on any path to redemption to begin with. And there have been a lot of people pointing out that he's always been a monster, considering that his first episode involved pushing a little child out a window. And, you know, I've never personally cared for Jamie due to that. But I did have a more visceral reaction to the rape, and I think that's understandable, because IMO you can't divorce how things are portrayed on the show and their real-world implications. Media doesn't happen in a vacuum. And I don't live in a place where there's an epidemic of children being pushed out of windows and then being blamed for it, although I suppose I shouldn't speak for anyone else.

Edited April 21, 2014 by galax-arena

[Danny Franks]

That quest has been terminated with extreme prejudice.

Yeah, I guess. But it wouldn't surprise me if there's a contingent over at the ASOIAF boards that likes him even more for this. Because only evil assholes are cool.

If they were supposed to show Cersei actually enjoying it in the end, then they cut away about four seconds too soon. Stupid. Hopefully there's some dialogue that can undo this damage in the next episode, but I'm struggling to figure out what.

[Lady S.]

Here's NCW's take on it:
 

“It is fucked up,” Coster-Waldau tells The Daily Beast. “It doesn’t get any darker than that, does it?”

“There’s a moment in the scene where the hand comes up and she has this face of disgust, and Jaime says, Why have the Gods made me love a hateful woman?” says Coster-Waldau. “He wants her, and wants everything to go back to the way it was. But there’s no way back.”

"To understand the psychology behind it, and why he goes as far as he does, was really difficult,” says Coster-Waldau. “To me it became, When does physical desire take over? It’s one of those things where he’s been holding it back for so long, and then out of anger he grabs her, and instinct takes over, and he lets loose. He says, I don’t care. He wants to not care. He has to connect to her, and he knows this is the most fucked up way for it to happen, but in that moment, he knows it’s all he can do. It’s an act of powerlessness.”

“It was tough to shoot, as well,” says Coster-Waldau. “There is significance in that scene ... It took me awhile to wrap my head around it, because I think that, for some people, it’s just going to look like rape. The intention is that it’s not just that; it’s about two people who’ve had this connection for so many years, and much of it is physical, and much of it has had to be kept secret, and this is almost the last thing left now. It’s him trying to force her back and make him whole again because of his stupid hand.”

So is it rape?

“Yes, and no,” says Coster-Waldau. “There are moments where she gives in, and moments where she pushes him away. But it’s not pretty.”

 

Rape is rape, so I hope his "yes and no" only means it would never occur to Jaime that it was rape because she was submissive at certain points and he can't believe that the other moments mattered, that she doesn't want him to prove himself as the man he was before.

Now might be a good time to point that Jaime's sapphire didn't save Brienne from rape alone, it saved her from being killed for fighting back. Initially he told her to just lie back and think of Renly, but she made it clear she'd do no such thing and appealed to him as a warrior because he'd make them kill him before he'd ever be raped. Not that that really matters, I guess. I doubt Jaime doesn't thinking raping women is wrong anyway, he wouldn't equate soldiers gang-raping a prisoner with the "love" between himself and his sister.

[dramachick]

Whether or not Jaime raped Cersei doesn't make any difference to me.  Any violent act they do to each other is well earned for the pain and suffering they've caused innocent people who've done them no harm.  I would have been fine with him killing her and then himself.

Edited April 22, 2014 by sukeyna

[Independent George]

Let's try a simple litmus test:

If you were on a jury, and you watched that scene play out, are you going to say Cersei consented? If that was your wife, and you saw that scene on tape, are you going angrily demand to know how she could cheat on you like that, or are you going to hug her and try and help her as best you can?

There are no exigent circumstances. Pushing Bran out the window was an evil act, with an easy to comprehend motive: self preservation. It's a desperate act, but it's also a conscious one by someone who comprehends the morality and consequences of his actions. 

Rape is different - it does reflect the underlying pathology of the perpetrator. Rape makes Jaime a sociopath who sees absolutely nothing wrong with what he did.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Independent George

[galax-arena]

If you were on a jury, and you watched that scene play out, are you going to say Cersei consented?

Considering today's rape culture, I wouldn't be surprised if some people on a modern-day jury would say that Cersei consented. Or they'd say that she couldn't have been raped because she and Jamie had slept together consensually before and were already in a relationship. Or they'd put the victim (Cersei) on trial and say that she was a bitch who had it coming.

We already have the director and people like Nikolaj hemming and hawing over whether it was really rape or not.

Edited April 22, 2014 by galax-arena

[BlackberryJam]

Okay...that question about a trial and a jury doesn't really make any sense.  A recording like that is used to bolster the testimony of the victim.  So, if Cersei gets on the stand and says "Rape," it supports her credibility.  If Cersei gets on the stand and says "That's the kind of thing Jaime and I like to do," the tape doesn't matter.

So...I know lots of people are upset by the scene and the director's comments, but I'm more interested in what Lena Headey says about how she was playing it.  Was she trying to play consent and failing?  Was she trying to play terror and failing?  I don't know what I was supposed to be getting from her.

Watching the scene I was more concerned about whether Joffrey's corpse was going to fall on top of them than worried about Cersei, so whatever Lena was doing in the scene wasn't enough to have made a big impact on me. 

[Lady S.]

Apparently Cersei's consent was supposed to be represented by wrapping her legs around Jaime, but Alex Graves explanations are all pretty gross. I also did not get that her reluctance was supposed to be disgust over his hand.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Rape is rape, so I hope his "yes and no" only means it would never occur to Jaime that it was rape because she was submissive at certain points and he can't believe that the other moments mattered, that she doesn't want him to prove himself as the man he was before.

It's funny to me because when Jaime sent the priests away and I said to my husband: "If they fuck in front of Joffrey's corpse, I honestly don't know what I'm going to do." Aaaaaand then that happened. He thinks I saw the episode before watching it with him!

I think I get where NCW is coming from. I suspect from Jaime's POV, it wasn't rape. Cersei's earlier rejection of him is due to his lack of right hand...a superficial thing which shouldn't get in the way of their 'love'. He probably figures he's 'fixed' their little stand-off by showing her that he can still fuck her like he used to.

Anyway, I've been trying to figure out how I felt about what happened. I feel like there were some 'mixed messages' being given by Cersei initially. She sought him out for comfort, embraced him, kissed him etc., until she was reminded of his hand. I think she began kissing him again a bit later too. As they went to the ground though, I thought I heard her say 'no' and was convinced that it was flat-out, uncontested rape...but when I listened more closely to her words, I'm think she was actually saying "it's wrong", not "No" or "Stop". Because of that, I feel like she was mainly protesting the inappropriateness of the location, more than the action itself, so I find myself divided. I took Jaime's "I don't care" to not mean "I don't care if you don't want to" but more along the lines of "I don't care about its timing". I think part of the issue is that the dialogue wasn't the standard one hears during such a scene (eg. "no, no, please no, don't do this" etc.)

There were definitely...rapey tones to the encounter. I may have to re-watch to see if my memory of events/dialogue was correct.

No matter how much I hate a female character though, I would never be all "...good. Bitch deserves to be raped." Not even Cersei.

The Jaime/Cersei dynamic is just so fucked up anyway that I find myself unable to really feel that questionable consent is some big tipping point with them.

Also, I must be a terrible person because when we saw Cersei gripping the tablecloth(?) upon which Joffrey was lying, I was so hoping that she'd accidentally pull it and that it would bring his corpse crashing down on top of them. :)

[Lady S.]

Yeah, she did say "it's not right", most likely about the place and that's what he said I don't care to. Regardless of the reason she didn't consent, she still never consented, and the director's full of shit on that score. But I can see how in Jaime's mind it's only the small matter of their dead son corpse that bothers her, but deep down she does want and he just needs to make her forget about everything else. I mean the guy doesn't understand why incest is wrong because "we don't get to choose who we love", and he sees nothing wrong with doing it in a holy place right next to his dead nephew/son, so it doesn't surprise me he doesn't understand no means no even from the sister/lover who'd always previously responded to his aggression. He has his good moments, but his passion for her was pretty all-consuming.

[Constantinople]

I suspect from Jaime's POV, it wasn't rape.

I suspect so too, which is all kinds of creepy, and which makes me question, yet again, what really happened when Jaime killed the Mad King.  I don't find Jaime's view point a reliable one, particularly when it comes to his own actions.

[Joystickenvy]

I find it interesting that even just by book canon, 

we have a man who is capable of incest, capable of attempting to murder a child, capable of watching men be tortured, capable of lying to his brother about something pretty important for decades, capable of sexing up his sister in a church, by his dead son's corpse, etc, but some are convinced he is not capable of rape or that rape is somehow the tipping point between misunderstood bad boy and villian.

True, the book has never suggested he raped anybody and he might find all those other things peachy, but draw the line at rape, but I kinda doubt it. But, I never saw him being slightly less awful to Brienne and then saving her from being gang raped & probably killed as erasing all those other things. He's not 100% bad, which I think is probably true of all people who do bad things, but he still has some pretty serious character flaws

. One of which is being obsessed with a sister who isn't that into him anymore and on the show, he has already begun to resent. He may not see the rape as a rape and Cersei might just look at it is one more thing she has to put up with because she is a woman, but I see this as a change that makes a dark character who has been being a bit less of a dick up to that point darker, not a massive character shift.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Mya Stone
Book spoilers always go under Spoiler tags in open threads.

[sev]

[...] capable of watching men be tortured [...]

What instance was that?

[Joystickenvy]

What instance was that?

Pretty much his entire time as a member of the Mad King's kingsguard.

Edited April 22, 2014 by Joystickenvy

[sev]

^ same goes for Ser Barristan Selmy then.

Edited April 22, 2014 by sev

[Joystickenvy]

^ same goes for Ser Barristan Selmy then.

I'm not making any points about Ser Barristan Selmy, so I don't get what your point is re: Jaime.

[BlackberryJam]

You can't assume just because Jaime does the horrific act of shoving Bran out the window that he's willing to commit every horrific act under the sun. 

To quote the Hound: "A man's got to have a code."

So the Hound kills the butcher's boy and now steals from the innocent (and STUPID) farmer, but I would be shocked as hell if he raped Arya or killed Sansa for money.

And if Jaime is horrific and would commit any horrific act because he watched the torture of others, just as 500 people in that room did including Barristan Selmy, then we can say Barristan Selmy is going to be totally cool with the crucifixion of slave children on the road to Meereen. 

Each of the characters in the story has their own moral code.  Tywin will destroy anyone to protect his legacy, even his youngest son, but he'll start a war for that same son.  Tyrion will exploit women through prostitution, but he won't force himself on his wife.  Ned Stark will chop the head off a deserter who is telling him the truth and make his own son watch, but he won't refuse a request from his King.  Catelyn Stark will go to war against the Lannisters, but she'll commit treason against her own son to protect her daughters. 

Whether you agree with the moral choices made by any of the characters or not, they have all, objectively, committed horrific acts.  Even my beloved Brienne made herself judge, jury and executioner of three men. 

I'm waiting to see Cersei's reaction to the sept scene in Episode Four.  If the alleged victim doesn't believe she was victimized, I think the scene gets chalked up to some bad editing choices and how Jaime and Cersei like it.  If she says that she was hurt, or brutalized, or injured by Jaime's actions, then we have Jaime as rapist.

Listening to the interviews, I think we are going to see the former rather than the latter.  Which will start a whole new posting storm.

 

[Joystickenvy]

You can't assume just because Jaime does the horrific act of shoving Bran out the window that he's willing to commit every horrific act under the sun. 

I agree and I'm not. What I'm saying is he has obviously been shown to be a character of questionable morals and he has an increasingly messed up relationship with Cersei, therefore I'm surprised so many fans think he clearly is not capable of the rape as depicted on the show or that the rape scene is a huge shift in the portrayal of his character or that they were willing to buy into the redemption arc until he committed that act.

Not saying it's "wrong," just an interesting take on what a character can be redeemed from in the eyes of the reader/viewer and what he can't.

As for where the show goes with it....I'm guessing either they ignore it entirely because they didn't intend it to come off as it did, or they use it as part of the arc they seem to have established with Cersei rejecting Jaime. In which case she looks a bit less petty than she currently does.

Based on the director's "not rape" defenses, I'm guessing the former.

[NoWillToResist]

 

What I'm saying is he has obviously been shown to be a character of questionable morals and he has an increasingly messed up relationship with Cersei, therefore I'm surprised so many fans think he clearly is not capable of the rape as depicted on the show or that the rape scene is a huge shift in the portrayal of his character or that they were willing to buy into the redemption arc until he committed that act.

And strangely, I'm not even sure this sets Jaime back on his 'redemption' arc because, IMO, Cersei is a separate issue altogether. The Jaime who just fucked his sister under questionable circumstances beside their son's corpse may turn around and, I don't know, rescue Brienne if she were to get herself into trouble again, or save a child (as an example). One does not negate the other, IMO. Very few characters on this show are all good or all bad.

 

Jaime has never had an emotionally healthy relationship with his twin. Beyond the twincest itself, he's had many lines of dialogue which show him to be totally obsessed with her. I mean, for fuck's sake, he won't be allowed to marry her, he fucked her while she was married to the king, yet he's giving shit to her fiance WHO IS GAY about marrying her? What did he hope to accomplish there? If he'll fuck her while she's married to the king, he can fuck her while she's married to Loras.

 

His possessiveness towards her is unhealthy, so I'm not really surprised that her rejections of him spurred him towards what happened. Ever since he was captured, he just wanted to get back to Cersei. He finally gets there and she gives him shit for being away so long and then cringes away from his one-handed status? No wonder the crazy bastard snapped. Cersei was devastated by Joffrey's death and she sought comfort from Jaime. I suspect sex had always been the way they addressed that in the past and he assumed status quo would work.

 

Please note: I am not excusing/justifying the sex...I am merely saying I'm not surprised or feel that it was OOC for Jaime.

Edited April 23, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Lady S.]

From the episode thread:
 

Just having a (rhetorical) thought experiment:

Can't it be that the notion of the value of children is very different, too? After all, in Westeros, children are meant as legacy for the rich and labour for the poor. They are more expendable than in modern day, where we have PC child worship. Only 100 years ago, kids were sent working in mines and beaten.

Would Jaime's act have been as despicable if he had defenestrated an adult to prevent five people from being killed?

Noble children weren't the ones sent into mines. And the families in GoT, especially the Starks, have more in common with modern day families than real medieval nobles when it comes to being close to their children. High childhood mortality rates don't mean heirs and spares being outright murdered is no big deal. Throughout the series, the murder of innocents is portrayed as worse than killing other soldiers, no matter what the pragmatic motives were. Even so, Bran's age makes the crime even worse, but if Ned or Robb had walked into a room at Winterfell during the royal visit, witnessed some twincest and died there for it, I feel sure Jaime and his lack of remorse would still be seen as despicable. People judge him for killing the adult Ser Alton, after all.

And saying Jaime did to save five people is a flattering spin, especially since there's no sign his own children ever crossed his mind in that tower. Jaime wasn't just choosing murdering one over letting others die like with Aerys, he was killing a witness to his treason, treason he just had to commit in someone else's home. It's not even like Ned or Jon Arryn investigating the twincest at the Red Keep and planning to tell Robert, Bran just accidentally witnessed it in his own home. I would think a man who only tried to kill this boy to save his own children, who felt he had no choice would still feel bad that it came to that, would regret his choice to get it on in that location, maybe re-think getting his incest on where discovery by innocent witnesses would threaten his children, maybe realize Cersei was right for once to be worried about Jon Arryn and that he should actually try harder to keep their treason a secret. Jaime did no such thing. Attempting to kill Bran is no different to him than killing anybody else, and it should be different, because Bran was innocent of anything except disobeying his mother about climbing.

My question would be, considering Jaime's crime was attempted murder and should be remembered as such, what if things had gone the way he wanted and Bran's fall did kill him? Would anyone be so quick to forgive Jaime and lack of remorse? Theon's remorse hasn't done him any favors. Is motive the big difference? The purely assumed motive?

 

Anyway, lack of any true guilt or remorse for his crimes is why I never thought Jaime was on a redemption arc, and if he's meant to be GRRM hasn't done a great job of conveying that. Jaime's always has his good points, like being mostly decent to Tyrion despite Tywin and Cersei's horrible examples. It's great that he added a non-Lannister to the list of people he's willing to do things for, but that's not a 180. The big difference is the things he did for Brienne were actually admirable, unlike pushing Bran out a window or killing Jory. But I doubt very much he would have sat idly by while Cersei was gang-raped and killed or left Tyrion to fight in a bear-pit. Jaime feels ashamed of the consequences of some of his/his family's actions, but he doesn't really look on anything he did as a mistake or really believe he can restore his honor. His life changes are entirely forced by circumstance. His reputation as Kingslayer had the one perk of making him a feared opponent, without that actually being a good Kingsguard is his only way to be a knight. He knows better than anyone how awful Cersei can be to other people, but only starts to see her differently when she rejects him. Their affair is another thing he never regrets one bit, his complaint is her not loving back. He likes Brienne for her goodness and nobility, qualities he wanted as a young knight, but he's still attracted to Cersei too. He's still a Lannister. And I'm sure he still longs to go back in time to his two-handed sisterfucking days before the war.

 

For the record, I always liked Jaime as an interesting character in season one, before I ever read the books. Good characters don't have to be good people, and the world isn't divided into good people and pure evil.

[Joystickenvy]

I agree with most of what you said Lady S., though I think a character like Jaime can be on a redemption arc without actually being redeemed.

In other words, I think his time with Brienne exposed and encouraged some of his better traits, but he didn't suddenly become a different person. Most "redemption arcs" are like this. Darth Vader commits one not evil act before he dies and gets the cool after life, but to me, that one act doesn't erase all the bad stuff he did before, but it does redeem him to some extent. It demonstrates that he was capable of doing something "good" and selfless, but had he lived, would he suddenly be a "good guy"....I have my doubts.

When Jaime returns home to KL, he reverts back to an uglier version of himself. Jaime seems, more than any other adult character, to be highly influenced by who he is with. Whether it's Tywin, Catelyn, Brienne, Cersei, Tyrion or even to some extent Loras, his attitudes and behaviors tend to shift.

I think he's a fascinating character, but I don't need him to be a "good guy" to love the character.

Edited April 23, 2014 by Joystickenvy

[NoWillToResist]

 

The big difference is the things he did for Brienne were actually admirable, unlike pushing Bran out a window or killing Jory. But I doubt very much he would have sat idly by while Cersei was gang-raped and killed or left Tyrion to fight in a bear-pit.

 

But I think this is why many felt he was being redeemed. Lannisters don't have to (and usually don't) like each other, but they are family and so they circle the wagons around their own (generally). But Brienne? She's not a Lannister and so should have been disposable. She's not got influence they can use, money they need or soldiers they want.

 

Their journey together was at an end. He was being taken home. He didn't have any further need for Brienne. Yet, he went back for her, offered to pay her ransom himself and then risked his life to save her. I think that may have been the only truly selfless, noble thing we've ever see him do.

[Lady S.]

Joystickenvy, you're right. I guess what I mean is if it's a redemption arc, it's only in the sense of no longer being just a villain and fans getting moments to sympathize with him. I just question how much Jaime really wants to turn over a new life, most of it seems to be related to what other people think of him rather than what he thinks about his old self.

 

But I think this is why many felt he was being redeemed. Lannisters don't have to (and usually don't) like each other, but they are family and so they circle the wagons around their own (generally). But Brienne? She's not a Lannister and so should have been disposable. She's not got influence they can use, money they need or soldiers they want.

 

Their journey together was at an end. He was being taken home. He didn't have any further need for Brienne. Yet, he went back for her, offered to pay her ransom himself and then risked his life to save her. I think that may have been the only truly selfless, noble thing we've ever see him do.

 

Well, she did kinda save his life after the behanding and a Lannister pays his debts. But no, I know what you mean. Protecting a good person for their own sake is great and not something Tywin or Cersei would do. I was more thinking of shippers who compare JC vs. JB in how Jaime does positive things for Brienne's sake as if he wouldn't do the same if Cersei's life were in danger. There's this idea that Cersei makes him do bad things but Brienne helps him be his best self, as if Jaime isn't responsible for his own choices and what he does away from Brienne doesn't matter as much. It's the view Alex Graves expresses in his explanation of the scene, and it really grosses me out. Not that I'm accusing sev of sharing that view, only my first three paragraphs are a direct reply to the Bran question, the rest is just general rambling.

 

Not to downplay Jaime's pitjump, but how much was his life really at risk? I don't think even Jaime was dumb enough to try to fight the bear himself, he knew he was the more valuable hostage and used that to get them to turn back. And that's the same reason his new party from Roose start firing crossbows at the bear. Then he sends Brienne up first, because that's the only way to get her out, if getting her out gets him out next. I doubt any of that surprised him.I don't think he expected the escort from Roose, who he just ordered to bring him back to stand by and watch him get mauled by a bear. Losing his life wouldn't have helped Brienne at all.

[sev]

I was just trying to make a point against the "it was a different world" argument, by showing that if one argues against rape really being rape because of the different laws of Westeros, than the same reasoning should be condoned for other crimes. No matter how different the fictional world is, the story is still created for a modern audience with modern moral standards.

[NoWillToResist]

 

Not to downplay Jaime's pitjump, but how much was his life really at risk?

Well, as soon as he jumped in, his face was the very definition of "I immediately regret this decision!" (TM Anchorman), so I don't think he felt that he was in no danger.

[sev]

^ Sure the Locke men would have wanted to prevent Jamie getting killed and might have had to jump into the pit or crossbowed the bear, but had the bear lunged forward and given one god rip at one handed Jamie any intervention would have been too late.

[bluvelvet]

I agree, he was really in dagger there was no garauntee that 1) they would try to save him 2) if they did they would hit their target 3) one arrow would even slow down the bear.

When Jaime jumped in the pit, it was all instinct I don't think he was thinking of the consequences to Bolton's men if he died.

And if he did die, Tywin couldn't blame the men because his hotheaded son decided to jump in a bear pit.

[BlackberryJam]

Jaime's decision to jump into the bear pit was as equally impulsive as his decision to attack Ned Stark, or his decision to shove Bran out the window.  Jaime is impulsive and really doesn't think things through.

 

We are talking about the man who told Catelyn Stark that if she wanted to kill him, she'd need to keep hitting him in the head with a rock and offered to join her in bed after her husband was killed.  Big picture and long term planning aren't his strong suits.

 

In jumping into the pit to save Brienne it appears he wasn't thinking at all.  He saw she had to be saved, jumped into to do it and then was faced with an "Oh, shit, how do I get out of this" situation.  The only difference this time is that he was acting impulsively to save someone who wasn't a Lannister.

[NoWillToResist]

 

In jumping into the pit to save Brienne it appears he wasn't thinking at all.  He saw she had to be saved, jumped into to do it and then was faced with an "Oh, shit, how do I get out of this" situation.  The only difference this time is that he was acting impulsively to save someone who wasn't a Lannister.

 

Well, she didn't *have* to be saved...he just wanted her to be saved. Which, again, seems like a rare peek at decency and selflessness on Jaime's part.

 

He also grabbed Brienne and told her to get behind him once he jumped in. I did love her indignant "I will not!" in response to that. Heh.

 

Of course, I must remember that just before Jaime jumped into the pit, he was many, many feet above the action. I strongly suspect that seeing a big-ass bear from a safe and elevated distance is *quite* different from seeing one up close and on the same level. :)

Edited April 24, 2014 by NoWillToResist

[Lady S.]

I was just trying to make a point against the "it was a different world" argument, by showing that if one argues against rape really being rape because of the different laws of Westeros, than the same reasoning should be condoned for other crimes. No matter how different the fictional world is, the story is still created for a modern audience with modern moral standards.

Gotcha, that makes perfect sense. But other people do write it off so that's why I took it at face value. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

 

Yes, there was danger of Roose's men not saving him in time, but I don't think there was much chance of them doing nothing. Jaime does panic understandably once he's in the pit, but that is natural response to seeing a big-ass bear up close. I don't think he believed when he shielded Brienne that he could save her on his own with one hand and no weapons.  But then I'm also doing the thing of judging a character's thought process from having read the book scene, where 

More crossbows fired, the quarrels ripping through fur and flesh. At such short range, the bowmen could hardly miss. Then Jaime has this exchange with Roose's captain afterward: "Are you mad, Kingslayer? Did you mean to die? No man can fight a bear with his bare hands!" "One bare hand and one bare stump," Jaime corrected. "But I hoped you'd kill the beast before the beast killed me. Elsewise, Lord Bolton would have peeled you like an orange, no?"

But anyway I know I'm quibbling here, Jaime does deserve credit for a truly good deed. I guess it's just that I'm like Joey in that one episode of Friends, questioning the self-interest or lack thereof in any good deed.

 

Jaime is definitely an impulsive person, when he had his swordhand his first response to a problem was killing, no matter if that would solve anything. With Cat, I can't decide if he was goading her because he knew she was bluffing and wouldn't kill him, or if he wanted to provoke her to try to kill him because conflict was preferable to tedious captivity. But I don't think he was just suffering from word vomit slipping from his tongue. He also offered to sleep with Brienne and tried to provoke her multiple times before even stealing a sword from her. Picking a fight with either of them was a dumb objective to be sure, but Jaime does have some dumb priorities. The dumb part of his fight with Ned was that he said he wanted to take Ned alive after Ned reminded him Tyrion's life was at risk, but then he gets caught up in the swordfight and, in his frustration at being interrupted, leaves Ned behind after he's injured.

[BlackberryJam]

Jaime is pretty, not brainy.  Tyrion is the brainy one.

 

Being a "man of action" isn't always a good thing, as we see time and again from Jaime.  If you want a well-thought out, devious plot involving lying and scheming, Jaime is not your man.  In the Pilot he has a discussion with Cersei where she is worried about Jon Arryn and Jaime is all, "Stop worrying, go with the flow, it makes life easier and happier and hell no, I don't want a job where I have to put in thought and effort like being Hand of the King, no matter how ambitious you are sister, I have no personal ambition so drop it and have fun."

 

So this idea that his confession to Brienne in the tub was some elaborate plot doesn't fit within his character.  Jaime will hurt you with the truth, as he did talking about the burning of Starks in the Throne Room, but he's no Baelish or Varys.  The only long con Jaime has ever pulled is banging his sister and that really didn't require much subterfuge on his part.  She's the one who had to lie to her husband.  She's the one who had to sleep with Robert.  She's the one who take care of the children.

 

Pretty Jaime ran around in his pretty armor, winning tournaments and sneaking moments with his sister.

 

 

[Constantinople]

So this idea that his confession to Brienne in the tub was some elaborate plot doesn't fit within his character.

 

It wasn't an elaborate plot, which is why it was so easy to poke holes in it.

 

But it's not just whether Jaime is honest or deceitful, though he is deceitful and apparently getting more so, but how reliable his perception of reality is.  In the most recent episode, Jaime heard Yes when Cersei said No.  Previously Jaime tried to argue that, "in his own" way, by fucking his sister and passing their twincest off as Robert's children, he was more honorable than Ned Stark.

 

So, in my opinion, Jaime's perception of reality is bit off, and his version of the "truth" should be met with some skepticism.  At best it's a case of "trust, but verify".

[BlackberryJam]

Exactly. The theory that Jaime made up the story of the killing of Aerys is practically a sieve. It makes absolutely no sense.

None of the characters in GoT is someone I'd befriend or even like. And I cheer for some of their deaths. I own it. I was kinda thrilled when Ned Stark bit it because he was a dour, stupid tool making massive mistake after massive mistake. There is no doubt that Joffrey was the worst of the major characters and I was thrilled when he died as well. I'd be happy to kill off Margery but I want to see more of Roose Bolton.

A character does not have a to be a good person to be likable. I love Jaime. I want him to win every time. If it's a battle between Jaime and almost anyone else, I want him to win. I loved Jaime the moment he shoved Bran out the window because it was so perfectly audacious.