Devil’s Dues: Moments You Didn’t Hate Characters You Hate

[Spartan Girl]

Even the TV character you loathe more than anything in the world has some moments where they aren’t completely terrible—or at least you briefly feel some empathy or them.

We all have come to realize that Zack Morris on Saved by the Bell was trash, but the episode “Pipe Dreams” was one of his better moments. It opens with the science class being assigned to care for some animals from the nearby pond for the week before releasing them back into the wild. Zack shows up with a duck he accidentally hit while playing baseball. Turns out that the duck is one of the ducks Mr. Belding feeds, whom he has dubbed “Becky”. Becky is fine, and Zack is assigned to take care of her for the week. And for once, this is an assignment that Zack actually takes seriously: he feeds Becky, takes her everywhere he goes, and comes to genuinely love her.

Meanwhile, Bayside turns out to have underground oil, and the school lets an oil company come drill. Everybody except Jessie supports this because of the money it’ll bring in. Unfortunately, there’s an accidental oil spill that leaks to the pond—on the same day the class releases Becky and all the animals back to the pond. Zack and the others try to save them, but…

It’s the audience gasp when they see Becky (I really hope that was a fake doll) that gets me. And I really felt terrible for Zack here. He was so heartbroken, and even though this wasn’t his fault, he blamed himself for not listening to Jessie.

Okay, your turn. What were the moments you felt something for characters you hated?

[Wiendish Fitch]

Screech from Saved by the Bell had wretched, Urkel-like qualities, but he did have some occasionally hilarious lines. I sheepishly confess I still chuckle at this exchange:

Slater: He puts his pants on one leg at a time, like the rest of us!

Screech: WE DO?!?!

I grew to loathe obnoxious, bullying, downright abusive Dr. Cox on Scrubs, but the episode where Turk reveals that Jordan (Dr. Cox's equally dysfunctional love) is expecting a baby girl, Cox's stunned, quietly joyously reaction did warm my heart. I hated Cox, but John C. McGinley is a hell of an actor, and he sold that scene. 

I loved Little Miss Perfect Rory finally snapping and telling off Tristan in the first season of Gilmore Girls. Now, if we'd had that Rory more often, that would gone a long way in making me like her more!

[jah1986]

Andor having Dedra tell off Syril's horrible mother, made me stop hating her for the length of that scene. She and Syril are both terrible, but his mother is another level of awful. Dedra was so calm but mom backed down, it was awesome!

[Spartan Girl]

1 hour ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Screech from Saved by the Bell had wretched, Urkel-like qualities, but he did have some occasionally hilarious lines. I sheepishly confess I still chuckle at this exchange:

Slater: He puts his pants on one leg at a time, like the rest of us!

Screech: WE DO?!?!

LMAO. But speaking of Urkel, I did like it when he stepped up to organize a bone marrow registration drive for the bully that got leukemia. More of that Urkel please!

1 hour ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

 

I loved Little Miss Perfect Rory finally snapping and telling off Tristan in the first season of Gilmore Girls. Now, if we'd had that Rory more often, that would gone a long way in making me like her more!

Agree and the episode where she tells Logan’s dad to get off his ass and go see his son at the hospital after Logan has his accident was also awesome.

[Blergh]

@Spartan Girl

Thanks SO much for this thread! Perhaps one of the saddest but most vital lessons in becoming an adult is that not only are good folks capable of doing bad deeds but alone doesn't make them bad people, bad people CAN do good deeds and that should be acknowledged while being mindful that their seemingly OOC good deeds don't necessarily transform villains into heroes (and all the above applies to fictional as well as RL individuals):

 

OK, J R Ewing epitomized the worst of the worst villains on Dallas and it would take a whole library to fill the mere list of his misdeeds and faults.

However, even though he often was manipulative and not above using his firstborn marital son as a pawn, there were times when J R WAS a good father to John Ross and, at times, loved his son for who he was rather than merely being his heir apparent (yes, I know even this positive facet  by no means made more than fleeting appearances).  Perhaps, this was best epitomized was when Southfork had been set ablaze in 1983 and J R himself had had to be revived in the midst of this, he did take his frightened and scared child then personally leaped WITH John Ross to from the second floor balcony of the ablaze family home into the swimming pool below! Yes, Bobby and Ray were both there and could have done this on the child's behalf but it was important for J R to be the one to get his child to safety (and let them tend to the still unconscious Sue-Ellen until rescue personnel arrived).

 

 

Edited May 4 by Blergh

[Cloud9Shopper]

I’m pretty vocal about how much I don’t like Abby Lockhart on ER but I do like her character best when she’s not in a romantic relationship and is focused on work and seems happier and more relaxed. Her and Neela’s NICU rotation had strong moments for both of them and Abby and Carter have a nice interaction post-relationship. It’s one of the few episodes of the later years of ER I enjoy and like her in.

Since I just complained about Danny from The West Wing in the Characters we Hate thread, I will give him credit for trying to stop Josh from doing the press briefing in the infamous “woot canal” episode and his “you’re not going to do this. You really don’t want to do this” speech. And then he absolutely goes to town snarking on Josh with “I’m sure we all join the president in his joy about the economy” remark. If we got more of that Danny and less of him trying way too hard to sleep with CJ, I wouldn’t be complaining about him as much.

 

[Spartan Girl]

Wesley on Angel was yet another of Whedon’s bitter Nice Guys with an inflated ego and who never admitted he was wrong. But him trying to burn Lilah’s contract so that he could find some peace in the afterlife was genuinely moving.

Edited May 4 by Spartan Girl

[RunningMarket]

1 hour ago, Cloud9Shopper said:

I’m pretty vocal about how much I don’t like Abby Lockhart on ER but I do like her character best when she’s not in a romantic relationship and is focused on work and seems happier and more relaxed. Her and Neela’s NICU rotation had strong moments for both of them and Abby and Carter have a nice interaction post-relationship. It’s one of the few episodes of the later years of ER I enjoy and like her in.

I love the scene where Abby and Neela come across the women who sneered at them earlier, one who has just done something to her ankle. Neela examines it, and says it's likely broken. Another sneer, so Neela asks Abby for a second opinion. Abby, "Yeah, it's broken. Oh, and you're a bitch."

And the two just walk away.

[roamyn]

I was just watching a reaction to Lucifer and it reminded me not only of just how much I hated Pierce (eons of crimes, manipulating Maze, trying to come between Chloe & Lucifer, manipulating his protege into getting killed, and of course killing Charlotte), but also just how bad an actor Tom Welling is.   I watched one season of Smallville and I just couldn't take it, despite Michael Rosenbaum and John Glover.

Even tho I felt Malcolm and Father Kinley were better villians, the actors were so equally good, that the contrast between them as villains and Pierce as one is so inherently wide and probably one of the reasons why S3 rates do badly among fans.

Edited May 5 by roamyn

[andidante]

21 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

I grew to loathe obnoxious, bullying, downright abusive Dr. Cox on Scrubs, but the episode where Turk reveals that Jordan (Dr. Cox's equally dysfunctional love) is expecting a baby girl, Cox's stunned, quietly joyously reaction did warm my heart. I hated Cox, but John C. McGinley is a hell of an actor, and he sold that scene. 

 

Dr. Cox was one of my favorite characters on Scrubs. I know he was a big jerk a lot but he did have a lot of moments when his humanity would shine through. And I loved his relationship with Jordan. 

[Spartan Girl]

The thing that kept me from despising Joxer on Xena: Warrior Princess the same way I despise Xander Harris was that for all his insufferably obnoxious dumbassery, Joxer lacked the cruel streak that so many other Nice Guy characters have. When he finally did tell Gabrielle he loved her after she came back to life, he was fully aware that she didn’t feel the same way and only wanted to tell her because he realized life was too short to keep hiding his feelings. And he didn’t take the rejection personally, he just accepted things the way they were, and their friendship was stronger for it.

So bravo, Joxer, for that moment of maturity.

Edited May 6 by Spartan Girl

[Wiendish Fitch]

Phyllis was easily my least favorite character on The Mary Tyler Moore Show,  but I did absolutely love it when, after suspecting Sue Ann Nivens has slept with her (Phyllis's) husband, she slams the oven door on the set of Sue Ann's show and ruins her souffle. I don't even remember if the inciting incident was a misunderstanding or not, but I adored how Phyllis knew exactly how to get under Sue Ann's skin and just went for it. 

[Blergh]

11 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Phyllis was easily my least favorite character on The Mary Tyler Moore Show,  but I did absolutely love it when, after suspecting Sue Ann Nivens has slept with her (Phyllis's) husband, she slams the oven door on the set of Sue Ann's show and ruins her souffle. I don't even remember if the inciting incident was a misunderstanding or not, but I adored how Phyllis knew exactly how to get under Sue Ann's skin and just went for it. 

Sue-Ann openly bragged about canoodling with Phyllis's husband Lars.

 When Phyllis went to confront Sue-Ann on her homemaker show set, she deliberately SLAMMED the oven door containing the souffle to cause it to collapse (to Sue-Ann's horror) Then, after Mary spelled out how Sue-Ann's rep would be too toasty for the station to keep her show if she didn't dump Lars, THAT is when Sue-Ann did so. THEN Phyllis  after asked Sue-Ann to confirm if she knew how to clean chocolate stains from clothes, Phyllis tossed some of the souffle batter right at Sue-Ann's smock-apron!  Yep, Phyllis nailed Sue-Ann where it hurt!

OK, while Little House on the Prairie's Harriet Oleson (Katherine MacGregor) started out as a surly, grim villain before Miss MacGregor turned her into a wacky  kook comic-relief villain by the latter part of the show, Mrs. Oleson had her positive moments even before the performer had completely transformed her. In 'My Ellen' (Season Four), after a one-shot friend Ellen Taylor had drowned, her grief-stricken mother Mrs. Taylor went off the deep end ,threw her husband out and trapped the protagonist Laura in her basement to REPLACE her dead daughter. Anyway, while Charles, Mr. Taylor and others suspected  and confronted this very awkward, possibly mentally challenged reclusive farmer named Busbee of having done something unspeakable to the missing Laura, busybody Harriet sniffed out something was very wrong with Mrs. Taylor when she came into the store and insisted on buying 'birthday candles' for her dead daughter's birthday party she was going to throw. Anyway, Harriet used her powers of nosiness for good and  got them to make a beeline to the Taylor place to look for (and free) Laura [her daughter Nellie's sworn foe- to boot]!

[Wiendish Fitch]

11 hours ago, Blergh said:

Sue-Ann openly bragged about canoodling with Phyllis's husband Lars.

 When Phyllis went to confront Sue-Ann on her homemaker show set, she deliberately SLAMMED the oven door containing the souffle to cause it to collapse (to Sue-Ann's horror) Then, after Mary spelled out how Sue-Ann's rep would be too toasty for the station to keep her show if she didn't dump Lars, THAT is when Sue-Ann did so. THEN Phyllis  after asked Sue-Ann to confirm if she knew how to clean chocolate stains from clothes, Phyllis tossed some of the souffle batter right at Sue-Ann's smock-apron!  Yep, Phyllis nailed Sue-Ann where it hurt!

Ha! Thanks for elaborating, it's been too long since I've seen that episode!

Sue Ann Nivens was a gold standard of how to make an entertaining unlikable character: don't "woobify" them, just let them be deliciously horrible while suffering the consequences every once in a while!

[Zella]

2 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Sue Ann Nivens was a gold standard of how to make an entertaining unlikable character: don't "woobify" them, just let them be deliciously horrible while suffering the consequences every once in a while!

Yes! Those are always my favorites. LOL 

[opus]

On 5/4/2025 at 9:25 AM, Spartan Girl said:

Even the TV character you loathe more than anything in the world has some moments where they aren’t completely terrible—or at least you briefly feel some empathy or them.

We all have come to realize that Zack Morris on Saved by the Bell was trash, but the episode “Pipe Dreams” was one of his better moments. It opens with the science class being assigned to care for some animals from the nearby pond for the week before releasing them back into the wild. Zack shows up with a duck he accidentally hit while playing baseball. Turns out that the duck is one of the ducks Mr. Belding feeds, whom he has dubbed “Becky”. Becky is fine, and Zack is assigned to take care of her for the week. And for once, this is an assignment that Zack actually takes seriously: he feeds Becky, takes her everywhere he goes, and comes to genuinely love her.

Meanwhile, Bayside turns out to have underground oil, and the school lets an oil company come drill. Everybody except Jessie supports this because of the money it’ll bring in. Unfortunately, there’s an accidental oil spill that leaks to the pond—on the same day the class releases Becky and all the animals back to the pond. Zack and the others try to save them, but…

It’s the audience gasp when they see Becky (I really hope that was a fake doll) that gets me. And I really felt terrible for Zack here. He was so heartbroken, and even though this wasn’t his fault, he blamed himself for not listening to Jessie.

Okay, your turn. What were the moments you felt something for characters you hated?

May I ask your Marge Simpson moment? There must be at least a couple lo these many years?

[Blergh]

20 hours ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Ha! Thanks for elaborating, it's been too long since I've seen that episode!

Sue Ann Nivens was a gold standard of how to make an entertaining unlikable character: don't "woobify" them, just let them be deliciously horrible while suffering the consequences every once in a while!

 And as long as we're talking about Sue-Ann, one of her best moments was when Mary was dating a divorced dad with a preteen son who stayed an utter pill to Mary. OK, while I would have usually had sympathy and tried to cut the kid some slack due to his parents' split,etc., he was needlessly sarcastic to Mary and snotty to his guilty dad so I was more than happy when Sue-Ann called him out. Sue-Ann asked him if he'd like some milk and cookies and he snarled that he was too old for those. So Sue-Ann replied (in a don't [mess] with me tone)," How about some Fritos and a beer?"

I mean, since Mary was still desperately trying to win over with her usual niceness, it was quite apt for Sue-Ann to let him have it with her usual. ..witchiness.

Edited May 8 by Blergh

[callie lee 29]

After spending 15 episodes despising Santos on The Pitt the last 10 minutes or so of episode 15 was a nice, though probably brief, reprieve.

Also the scene where Amy called Sheldon on all his shit in the penultimate episode of TBBT is nice, though doesn't quite excuse all her creepy and enabling behavior for seasons.

[Spartan Girl]

2 hours ago, opus said:

May I ask your Marge Simpson moment? There must be at least a couple lo these many years?

Ha, good one.

Actually, I found myself liking her in two episodes in the current season: “Bottle Episode” where she and Smithers make counterfeit wine to scam rich people, and “PS I Hate You” where she told Helen Lovejoy to kiss her ass. See, if we had this Marge instead of the whiny sanctimonious self-martyring bore she’s devolved into over the past several decades, I wouldn’t hate her so much!

Edited May 8 by Spartan Girl

[Katy M]

I don't like Gabe on The Office, but I think it was nice of him to go all out and play Lincoln for the kids when they went to Gettysburg.

I don't like Judy on Friends, but I love her speech from the Thanksgiving episode when everyone made their confessions.  That is the BEST scene ever.  I'm sorry Phoebe, but I think Jacques Cousteau is dead.

 

[andidante]

13 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't like Gabe on The Office, but I think it was nice of him to go all out and play Lincoln for the kids when they went to Gettysburg.

I don't like Judy on Friends, but I love her speech from the Thanksgiving episode when everyone made their confessions.  That is the BEST scene ever.  I'm sorry Phoebe, but I think Jacques Cousteau is dead.

 

I love that scene! One of the best in the series.

[Spartan Girl]

Another Zack Morris moment I liked is when he did that cute little homemade prom for him and Kelly when he found out the reason that she backed out of prom was because she gave all the money she saved up to her dad after he lost his job. That was a genuinely thoughtful thing that Zack on more than one occasion proved he was capable of.

[Wiendish Fitch]

Re: Zack Morris

You know the infamous VERY SPECIAL EPISODE where Jesse becomes addicted to caffeine pills? Yeah, I know, it's been mocked and memed to death (deservedly so, I'm sorry to say), but after Jessie's unintentionally funny meltdown, Zack comforts her, and tells her that they've gone through scary things together before, and they'll get through this. I thought that was genuinely sweet, and it almost (but not quite) makes up for how the writers blundered a serious situation.

The irritating thing is, Zack did have some genuinely nice moments, but the writers were so tone deaf that they made him an icky sociopath a good number of times. I'm not saying he had to be Mr. Nice Guy all the time, but why did they have to go to the other extreme and make him such a pathological creep?

That's why Saved by the Bell doesn't hold up for me: it didn't know what it wanted to be the majority of the time, and it suffered greatly from "Depending on the Writer"-itis. 

[andromeda331]

43 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

Re: Zack Morris

You know the infamous VERY SPECIAL EPISODE where Jesse becomes addicted to caffeine pills? Yeah, I know, it's been mocked and memed to death (deservedly so, I'm sorry to say), but after Jessie's unintentionally funny meltdown, Zack comforts her, and tells her that they've gone through scary things together before, and they'll get through this. I thought that was genuinely sweet, and it almost (but not quite) makes up for how the writers blundered a serious situation.

The irritating thing is, Zack did have some genuinely nice moments, but the writers were so tone deaf that they made him an icky sociopath a good number of times. I'm not saying he had to be Mr. Nice Guy all the time, but why did they have to go to the other extreme and make him such a pathological creep?

That's why Saved by the Bell doesn't hold up for me: it didn't know what it wanted to be the majority of the time, and it suffered greatly from "Depending on the Writer"-itis. 

One thing that still holds up for me are all the crazy teachers. If I didn't know better I'd think they copied them off my high school teachers. 

[Spartan Girl]

54 minutes ago, Wiendish Fitch said:

 

The irritating thing is, Zack did have some genuinely nice moments, but the writers were so tone deaf that they made him an icky sociopath a good number of times. I'm not saying he had to be Mr. Nice Guy all the time, but why did they have to go to the other extreme and make him such a pathological creep?

Exactly. It would have gone a long way to having him grow out of pulling that stupid crap after the first season, or at least be a little consistent and less schizophrenic with the writing.

The moment with Jessie and Zack was a good moment between the two of them, despite the cringiness of that whole episode. I did like their friendship.

[Wiendish Fitch]

2 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

One thing that still holds up for me are all the crazy teachers. If I didn't know better I'd think they copied them off my high school teachers. 

Deadpan Mr. Dewey was my favorite. He was another highlight in the aforementioned cringefest episode.

Jessie (upon receiving a disappointing grade on her assignment): 'C'? 'C'?!!

Mr. Dewey: Si, senorita, but this isn't Spanish class!

2 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

The moment with Jessie and Zack was a good moment between the two of them, despite the cringiness of that whole episode. I did like their friendship.

They were awesome as friends (and there was no UST! Hooray!). I love this exchange between them, when Jessie suspects the new female wrestler on the team is trying to steal Slater from her.

Zack: Chrissy likes me!

Jessie: But... she said the guy she liked was a total hunk!

Zack: Oh, and what do I look like, a bologna sandwich?!

Edited May 13 by Wiendish Fitch

[kathyk2]

Peter and Lois Griffin stopped Quagmire from sleeping with Meg when she turned eighteen. Peter is still friends with him so I guess Meg still doesn't matter.

[Spartan Girl]

Now that You is over, I’ll admit that the only thing I’ll miss about Joe Goldberg is his internal voiceover’s snarky insults to people like Peach while acting nice to them out loud. We all kind of have those thoughts every once in a while, don’t we?

[Blergh]

While IMO Charles was a far more dimensional and even likable foil than the departed Frank on M*A*S*H, in keeping with the spirit of this SubForum ,I can think of one moment when I actually sympathized with the otherwise despicable character. 

Frank asks Trapper why he[Trapper] had been initially nice to him but then joined Hawkeye ,etc. re dumping on him. Trapper snapped ,"It saves time."but did acknowledge that he HAD been nice to Frank way back when. 

As I said  ,I normally had zero sympathy for Frank. However, I can think of times from grade school ,etc. when I had thought another person had wanted to have been my friend due to their initial civility towards me -only to feel extra burned when that person joined the openly snotty  in dumping on me .Hence, Frank got my empathy for that moment though Trapper just validated my belief he was a creep.

 

 

 

Edited May 17 by Blergh

[andidante]

5 hours ago, Blergh said:

While IMO Charles was a far more dimensional and even likable foil than the departed Frank on M*A*S*H, in keeping with the spirit of this SubForum ,I can think of one moment when I actually sympathized with the otherwise despicable character. 

Frank asks Trapper why he[Trapper] had been initially nice to him but then joined Hawkeye ,etc. re dumping on him. Trapper snapped ,"It saves time."but did acknowledge that he HAD been nice to Frank way back when. 

As I said  ,I normally had zero sympathy for Frank. However, I can think of times from grade school ,etc. when I had thought another person had wanted to have been my friend due to their initial civility towards me -only to feel extra burned when that person joined the openly snotty  in dumping on me .Hence, Frank got my empathy for that moment though Trapper just validated my belief he was a creep.

 

 

 

I had sympathy for Frank when he was speaking to his mother on the phone and was telling her that he had a friend (Margaret) that pretended to like him "you know, like dad used to". That broke my heart for him.

[Raja]

Dedra Meero of Andor at the moment she knows that the empire was turning on her and there was no way out of its grip.

[Spartan Girl]

I came to loathe the Young Sheldon version of Mary Cooper as a sanctimonious control freak, but for a little while after she and Sheldon came back from Germany, she was a bit more likable. Especially when she consoled Missy after being dumped by her secret boyfriend—she made more of an effort with Missy in that moment than she had in the past few years.

Edited May 20 by Spartan Girl