S02.E09: The After Hours

[juno]

Episode airs Mar 14, 2025

TV-MA

44m

Mark and Devon team with an ally. Helly investigates further.

[arc]

So, that was the Eagan family compound? And it's nearly across the street (in suburban geography terms) from the Lumon office?

"Eustice"???? Wait, a "material sacrifice"? There's no real corporation this culty.

Oh nooooooo, Burt is fully evil?

The Dylan-Gretchen-Dylan love "triangle" is so messed up. I did think about how outie Dylan would never know if innie Dylan was seeing his wife, but somehow I never made the connection that outie Dylan could effectively kill the innie at any time by just quitting.

How long is the winter season in New York? I assume they have to shoot the outdoor sequences out of order to maximize the number of days where there's snow.

Face turn coming up? This ride with Irving and the dog -- they brought the dog!! -- feels both ominous and yet like there's a 60% chance Burt subverts his orders and lets Irving live. Mostly cause it's pretty rare even for bad guys to kill the dog. ... OK, wow, Burt is letting Irving go so long as he never returns. But I know schmuck bait when I see it. They're not writing off a main cast member. I'm somewhat of the same mind about innie Dylan resigning, but the show could probably find some way to bring him back or run with outie Dylan only for a few episodes next season. But exiling Irving out of Kier entirely? Nah.

Milchick's rebellion at Drummond was cathartic and awesome but also limited: he may have stood up for himself but he is no ally to the innies right now. Also, given the lines Lumon will cross, such as breaking into Irving's home, it's crazy they haven't already slipped a tracker into Mark's phone. He even leaves it unattended in a Lumon locker every day. Hey, speaking of, is that an iPhone? I feel like Apple's never done an iPhone with a line of cameras down the center of the back. I thought Apple TV shows typically put iPhones in the hands of each show's heroes.

I was scared when I thought Milchick was about to catch Helly with the contraband directions to the black corridor, but having it be Jame Eagan was worse.

So wait, why would this luxury birthing cabin experience offer severed experiences but also open to non-severed (rich) mothers-to-be? My first thought is that there must be too little business only offering severed births. But still, feels like bad opsec to do this instead of making two facilities, one smaller than the other.

The Tumblr discussion forum had a post explaining the title of the episode and it blew my mind. Basically, it's from a potentially very resonant episode the the original Twilight Zone.

OK, with this episode, a lot of threads for the season have been either addressed or at least lined up for the season finale. Except Ricken selling out; that one has been left dangling ever since 2x05.

[dwmarch]

  On 3/14/2025 at 4:43 AM, arc said:

So wait, why would this luxury birthing cabin experience offer severed experiences but also open to non-severed (rich) mothers-to-be? My first thought is that there must be too little business only offering severed births.

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The implication I got from the way Ms. Cobel was talking is that this "birthing" cabin doesn't just offer birthing services. It also allows Jame to have his indiscretions discreetly taken care of while the employees he has committed them with remember nothing of it. Apparently this happens often enough that the gate guard is not surprised by it.

[arc]

  On 3/14/2025 at 5:13 AM, dwmarch said:

The implication I got from the way Ms. Cobel was talking is that this "birthing" cabin doesn't just offer birthing services. It also allows Jame to have his indiscretions discreetly taken care of while the employees he has committed them with remember nothing of it. Apparently this happens often enough that the gate guard is not surprised by it.

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I hadn't even thought of that, but even so, it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that they offer a non-severed services for people like Devon. Opportunities for secrecy breakdowns -- like what actually happened in s1 -- are just too possible.

Also, I think Jame has illegitimate children, not secret abortions.

[dwmarch]

The dialog between Cobel and the guard is code referring to a specific Twilight Zone episode:

https://twilightzone.fandom.com/wiki/The_After_Hours

[Affogato]

  On 3/14/2025 at 5:24 AM, arc said:

I hadn't even thought of that, but even so, it still doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that they offer a non-severed services for people like Devon. Opportunities for secrecy breakdowns -- like what actually happened in s1 -- are just too possible.

Also, I think Jame has illegitimate children, not secret abortions.

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The babies can be birthed severed and taken away from the mothers. 

[arc]

  On 3/14/2025 at 10:10 AM, Affogato said:

The babies can be birthed severed and taken away from the mothers. 

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Well, so far we've seen severance used just so the outie mother can escape actual labor. But they know they're pregnant for months before that. Or alternatively there'd be an innie to carry the whole term, but then the outie would know they'd lost nine months. I don't think severance by itself really helps with stealing the baby.

[Affogato]

  On 3/14/2025 at 10:14 AM, arc said:

Well, so far we've seen severance used just so the outie mother can escape actual labor. But they know they're pregnant for months before that. Or alternatively there'd be an innie to carry the whole term, but then the outie would know they'd lost nine months. I don't think severance by itself really helps with stealing the baby.

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You tell them the baby died. Alternatively you pay them well and set them up elsewhere. Maybe you kill them. I’m not devoted to this, but it is a thought. 

[overtherainbow]

9 episodes in and still nothing about mammalians nurturable/the creepy goat people, why Irving was spending so much of his time painting those creepy dark corridors, what Helena’s motive was for talking to outie Mark at the Chinese restaurant, anything really about Jame Eagan, etc etc. Just a lot of cinematic shots and cliffhangers. And Cobel with her smug smirk, cold stare, and cryptic way of speaking is driving me crazy. Now both Dylan and Irving's stories seem to be finished (for now at least).. I hope the finale will tie up some of these loose ends and be satisfying enough to not just leave us with more questions. 

[Dev F]

  On 3/14/2025 at 2:17 PM, overtherainbow said:

9 episodes in and still nothing about mammalians nurturable/the creepy goat people, why Irving was spending so much of his time painting those creepy dark corridors, what Helena’s motive was for talking to outie Mark at the Chinese restaurant, anything really about Jame Eagan, etc etc. Just a lot of cinematic shots and cliffhangers.

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I'd take issue with a lot of this, but one complaint in particular stands out: There has, in fact, been a major continuing storyline about "why Irving was spending so much of his time painting those creepy dark corridors" that continued through the final minutes of this very episode.

Hint: the "creepy dark corridor" in his paintings was the elevator to the testing floor.

[overtherainbow]

  On 3/14/2025 at 2:35 PM, Dev F said:

I'd take issue with a lot of this, but one complaint in particular stands out: There has, in fact, been a major continuing storyline about "why Irving was spending so much of his time painting those creepy dark corridors" that continued through the final minutes of this very episode.

Hint: the "creepy dark corridor" in his paintings was the elevator to the testing floor.

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I know. I meant more along the lines of how his outie knows the exact location of the testing floor. That has still never been addressed. It was alluded to in Woe's Hollow that outie Irv knows more than was let on all along but that never went anywhere. 

[iMonrey]

  On 3/14/2025 at 4:43 AM, arc said:

How long is the winter season in New York? I assume they have to shoot the outdoor sequences out of order to maximize the number of days where there's snow.

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Is that where this takes place? Or is it just shot there? Wherever it is, it seems like it's always winter. But never Christmas. Hey! It's Narnia!

  On 3/14/2025 at 2:17 PM, overtherainbow said:

And Cobel with her smug smirk, cold stare, and cryptic way of speaking is driving me crazy.

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This is one of the main reasons they are losing me. It isn't realistic that Mark and Devon aren't hammering Cobel with questions or letting her get away with her non-answers. Why do they have Gemma, how did they get her, what are they doing to her, is there a way of getting her out. These are the obvious questions anyone with half a brain would demand of her. But no, instead we just get this back and forth tension without anyone saying anything of substance, because God forbid the audience find out anything tangible at this point, right? It's annoying as shit.

[dwmarch]

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:59 PM, iMonrey said:

Is that where this takes place? Or is it just shot there?

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Filming for the ORTBO was in New York but filming for the previous episode was on the east coast of Canada. The show is set in Kier, PE which is not a real state. We are left to assume that PE stands for Providence or Principality of Eagan. But there have been references to other places that do exist, such as Grand Rapids.

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:59 PM, iMonrey said:

instead we just get this back and forth tension without anyone saying anything of substance, because God forbid the audience find out anything tangible at this point, right? It's annoying as shit.

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Have you ever seen The Blacklist? If you haven't, don't ever watch The Blacklist. They set up a good mystery box in the first episode and spent ten long seasons (and a spinoff show!) dragging it around but never opening it. Blindspot, which used a very similar setup, was a lot better at setting up a weird mystery but actually answering the questions.

[seank941]

  On 3/14/2025 at 4:43 AM, arc said:

The Dylan-Gretchen-Dylan love "triangle" is so messed up. I did think about how outie Dylan would never know if innie Dylan was seeing his wife, but somehow I never made the connection that outie Dylan could effectively kill the innie at any time by just quitting.

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At first I thought this was a very quick resolution to an interesting storyline, but now I think it was less about love, and more about how innie Dylan is willing to quit a job as quickly as his outie.

 

  On 3/14/2025 at 4:43 AM, arc said:

They're not writing off a main cast member. I'm somewhat of the same mind about innie Dylan resigning, but the show could probably find some way to bring him back or run with outie Dylan only for a few episodes next season. But exiling Irving out of Kier entirely? Nah.

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It seems like the innie storylines are starting to come to an end. Mark has no reason to go back after he gets Gemma, Helena is going to quit, and Irv was fired.  Now that we know there are other places to Sever, I wouldn't be surprised if we leave the Severance floor behind. 

 

  On 3/14/2025 at 2:17 PM, overtherainbow said:

what Helena’s motive was for talking to outie Mark at the Chinese restaurant, anything really about Jame Eagan, etc etc. Just a lot of cinematic shots and cliffhangers. And Cobel with her smug smirk, cold stare, and cryptic way of speaking is driving me crazy.

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I think the reason they wrote the restaurant scene was to establish that Mark and Helena know each other a little. Assuming Helly reaches the elevator, she will become Helena in the basement where Gemma and Mark are. I don't know how things will turn out, but I'm sure Helena will have a part to play.

I'm guessing that Jame Eagan will next season's villain.

I'm not a Cobel fan either. They made her into such a villain in the first season, that even with last week's episode I can't really buy her newfound hatred of Lumon. I also can't understand Mark and Devon's (especially Devon's) sudden trust of her. It's like they've forgotten all of season one. 

[KarenX]

  On 3/14/2025 at 5:18 PM, seank941 said:

I'm not a Cobel fan either. They made her into such a villain in the first season, that even with last week's episode I can't really buy her newfound hatred of Lumon. I also can't understand Mark and Devon's (especially Devon's) sudden trust of her. It's like they've forgotten all of season one. 

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I didn’t miss her at all. She is still a villain. I buy her hatred of Lumon. But I don’t think Mark and Devon should trust her. I think she is using them to topple the Eagan regime at Lumon, not to eliminate severance technology.

[lavenderblue]

I felt like the Dylan storyline was something that could have played out in an interesting way if this season had been paced differently. Instead of the quick introduction of the Gretchen/iDylan romance, two episodes focused on other characters, and then bam, her confession and oDylan's immediate rage, maybe have oDylan react with a confused sense of conflict -- well, it's still me, I guess, maybe it's just weird but not morally wrong? -- that develops, even over the course of just an ep or two, into resentment and anger, like does my wife prefer my innie and why? Then you could still resolve it as played out here. But as presented, both outie and innie Dylan's reactions seemed quite sudden because we've had so little time with this story. iDylan's response did flow more naturally, though, since we also had his reaction in S1 to discovering that he had children, and he's already suffered loss this season.

That said, @seank941 may be right that it's also just a way to show how similar iDylan is to oDylan when it comes to quitting a job. 

[AstridM]

  On 3/14/2025 at 5:07 PM, dwmarch said:

Filming for the ORTBO was in New York but filming for the previous episode was on the east coast of Canada. The show is set in Kier, PE which is not a real state. We are left to assume that PE stands for Providence or Principality of Eagan. But there have been references to other places that do exist, such as Grand Rapids.

Have you ever seen The Blacklist? If you haven't, don't ever watch The Blacklist. They set up a good mystery box in the first episode and spent ten long seasons (and a spinoff show!) dragging it around but never opening it. Blindspot, which used a very similar setup, was a lot better at setting up a weird mystery but actually answering the questions.

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Yeah, I quit watching The Blacklist in about season 2 for this reason. Oh, HELL NO 🤦‍♀️. I won’t continue to be strung along for another 8 seasons, ffs. 
 

So was Irving reintegrated? He kept telling Burt at the train station that he was now “ready?” So he remembers innie Irving telling innie Burt that he was NOT ready the last time?

 

Edited March 14 by AstridM

[diebartdie]

  On 3/14/2025 at 2:17 PM, overtherainbow said:

why Irving was spending so much of his time painting those creepy dark corridors, what Helena’s motive was for talking to outie Mark at the Chinese restaurant,

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So, we've seen the actual dark corridor leading to an elevator many times over the course of the 2 seasons. It seems to go to the testing floor but I am not sure about that. What do we really know about the testing floor? Well one thing we know is that severance seemingly creates a sort of dissociative identity disorder where most severed have a second identity (the "innie") that is basically identical to the first identity except simplified and more docile. However, it's still just one person. Some severed, like Gemma, have multiple different "innies". Gemma is grilled CONSTANTLY about any residual feeling, sensation, impressions or memories she may harbor after each severance.

When we catch up with Gemma, we see al this and we also see her say "my mouth hurts" after the dental torment and she's holding her left hand in pain after the Xmas cards torment. She may not know exactly why she's feeling such physical pain, she is still FEELING it regardless. This repeated trauma will eventually cause a breach amongst a severed being tormented like that so this brings me to...

Irving and his obsession with the black corridor and the black elevator door. Let me put this out there: I believe Irving was "reset" multiple times, I believe that is what happens behind that black elevator door. I think Dylan is going to be reset and I think this resetting, if done multiple times, causes trauma. The "outie" may not know exactly what the trauma is but trauma will wreak havoc if not addressed. So "outie" Irving, being an artist (sensitive), being a veteran (ptsd), this trauma pours out of him and onto black canvas after black canvas.

 

Helena, for some weird reason, has an obsession with Mark Scout. I think she's like she is because of how she was raised. The Chinese restaurant scene didn't bother me as much as during ORTBO when she laughed HARD over that weird story Milcheck read to everyone about Dieter. Of course she was trying to act like what she reckoned Helly acts like but in that moment, that was full on Helena and she thought that story was absurd. If she is an Egan, daughter of the top dog Egan, how would that story be so silly to her?

Because it was made up by Milcheck (or Frolic tattoo) as a way to strongly discourage the innnies from experimenting sexual in this novel environment or really ANY environment. I don't know, it was weird as hell to me.

[aghst]

So Helena has this luxurious life with a big indoor swimming pool and a modern home with a dining room with floor to ceiling panoramic views.

But she can only have egg whites and only in the most ridiculous, ritualized way.

Did she go into a big chauffeur-driven limo just to take a short ride to Lumon so that she could flip to Helly?

Burt driving Irv looked similar to Sil driving Adriana, all nice and gentle talk, with Burt saying he never hurt anyone, just drove or transported people and Irv asks if this drive is one of those tasks he did for Lumon.

Burt gives Irv a ticket to as far as the train will take him away from Lumon and tells him never to come back.  

Is Irv gone for good?  Well other characters are also departing in this episode.  Innie Dylan quits because Gretchen won't cheat on Outie Dylan with his own body as Outie Dylan put it.

Milchick sends Ms. Huang away as payback for the big words critique.  Also says she will be taken away from her parents, so is she going to be put on the same path as Harmony?

BTW, it's good that Mark didn't complete Cold Harbor because as Harmony believes, Gemma would be dead if he did.  That goes back to the episode where Drummond tells Dr. Bauer that she'd go away once Mark finished Cold Harbor.

Milchick has his "take this job and shove it" moment after Drummond tries to make him eat shit and Milchick's response is "Devour feculence!"

Many of these characters' fate may not be known until the next season, as they all seem to be in cliffhanger-y moments.

No wonder reintegration is so hard.  Mark has brain surgery in his basement and Devon can't hear him over the wind whistling through the hold in the back of his head.  Now they got to sneak him back into a Lumon rebirthing cabin to complete the reintegration so Outie and Innie Marks can talk to each other.

But the atmosphere in that cabin, with the roaring fireplace casting that sexy glow on the walls and on Harmony's silhouette!

 

 

 

[seank941]

  On 3/14/2025 at 3:59 PM, iMonrey said:

Is that where this takes place? Or is it just shot there? Wherever it is, it seems like it's always winter. But never Christmas. Hey! It's Narnia!

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Does that mean Irv is taking the train to Aslan's camp?

[seank941]

  On 3/14/2025 at 6:09 PM, lavenderblue said:

I felt like the Dylan storyline was something that could have played out in an interesting way if this season had been paced differently. Instead of the quick introduction of the Gretchen/iDylan romance, two episodes focused on other characters, and then bam, her confession and oDylan's immediate rage, maybe have oDylan react with a confused sense of conflict -- well, it's still me, I guess, maybe it's just weird but not morally wrong? -- that develops, even over the course of just an ep or two, into resentment and anger, like does my wife prefer my innie and why? Then you could still resolve it as played out here. But as presented, both outie and innie Dylan's reactions seemed quite sudden because we've had so little time with this story. iDylan's response did flow more naturally, though, since we also had his reaction in S1 to discovering that he had children, and he's already suffered loss this season.

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That's the story I was hoping for. Instead of something meaningful and interesting, it feels like a way to separate Dylan from the rest of the group. I didn't think he'd told anybody about seeing his wife, but maybe he did and I just forgot? I still have no idea how much time has passed since the season started.

 

  On 3/14/2025 at 8:14 PM, aghst said:

No wonder reintegration is so hard.  Mark has brain surgery in his basement and Devon can't hear him over the wind whistling through the hold in the back of his head.  Now they got to sneak him back into a Lumon rebirthing cabin to complete the reintegration so Outie and Innie Marks can talk to each other.

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I thought Mark's reintegration was done but then his innie appeared in the cabin. Is this what reintegration is like, or does he still have longer to go? It doesn't seem like he has time if he has to save Gemma next episode. It's feeling like the rescue Gemma mission is going to drag into next season, which means most of this season will have been a place holder.

[Pi237]

"Devour feculence" was great. The big words critique has many layers, as we know an infamous racial micro aggression is complimenting a black person by calling them 'so articulate.'

The Irving train ride bothered me so much because he didn't bring any clothes. I'm sure it was done so there'd be no suspicions raised that Irving lived and ran away. But couldn't they get him some other clothes?  How do you just show up somewhere with your dog and literally Nothing else and start a new life?

Mark arguing about calling off work as a way to raise the suspense was beneath the writing of this show. As was that over the top shot of Cobel  back lit by fire and looking like Lucifer himself.

What's with old man Eagan confronting Helly as if she was Helena? She apparently didn't recognize him so what's the point? He's really mad she didn't drink her eggs. 

Edited March 15 by Pi237

[Red Fields]

Can innieDylan quit? I thought that was only the outie’s prerogative.

Poor Helly. I’m glad someone is trying to further innieIrving’s investigative work. But I feel so bad for her. She is trying to keep her existence despite knowing how little her outie thinks of her. And Dylan pointing out that Mark didn’t recognize the deception, ouch.

I think Ms. Huang’s role is over. I think she was there mostly to show us that the program that recruited Harmony is still ongoing. But I think everyone else will be back next season. There are unanswered questions about outieIrving’s sleuthing and I don’t buy Burt’s explanation of his role at Lumon. It had to be far more significant. I do like his mini-redemption arc though. And I loved their head touching scene mirroring the one with their innies. So sad with outieIrving saying he had never had romantic love and that he was ready. Surely there was innie leakage with that sentiment.

[Dev F]

  On 3/15/2025 at 12:29 AM, Pi237 said:

What's with old man Eagan confronting Helly as if she was Helena? She apparently didn't recognize him so what's the point?

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I think he is talking to Helly. Several folks on Reddit pointed out that "You tricked me" could refer to how she deceived him into thinking she was Helena when they met at the gala at the end of season 1.

  On 3/15/2025 at 12:01 AM, seank941 said:

That's the story I was hoping for. Instead of something meaningful and interesting, it feels like a way to separate Dylan from the rest of the group.

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I sort of think the point is that it was never going to be meaningful. That's the subtext of the references to The Twilight Zone episode "The After Hours" that @arc and @dwmarch pointed out. They were mannequins pretending to be real people, but now their time is up and they have to go back to being mannequins again. Their too-simple feelings can't endure sustained contact with the harsh realities of the outside world.

The same theme runs through the other storylines as well, from Irving and Burt wanting some kind of redemption through the innocent love of their innies but being driven apart by Irv's betrayals and Burt's crimes, to Milchick cruelly dismissing Miss Huang from her internship by emphasizing that it's time for her to put away childish things, and even to Milchick himself giving up on simple words and groveling apologies and demanding that Mr. Drummond "devour feculence" and show him the respect he's earned.

[KarenX]

  On 3/15/2025 at 2:48 AM, Red Fields said:

Can innieDylan quit? I thought that was only the outie’s prerogative.

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Innies can request to quit, but the decision lies with the Outies. Outie Dylan left for work on a threat to quit that very day, though, so he might be primed for it.

Maybe he’ll have the self-awareness to wonder why his Innie wants to quit on the exact same day he did.

[arc]

One thing that struck me was how many of the severed outies and innies took ownership of their other halves to some degree. Helly said she should be called "Helly E", Burt and Irving acknowledged how their innies had fallen in love even if they had no conscious knowledge of it.

... Except the Dylans, who were both pretty steadfast in regarding their complement as a separate person rather than a facet of the same person.

Except for that attempted guilt trip move where outie Dylan said he was about to go to work to earn money and provide for the family. He's going to the office, but it'll be innie Dylan who'll be doing the work.

[jacehan]

  On 3/15/2025 at 2:48 AM, Red Fields said:

Can innieDylan quit? I thought that was only the outie’s prerogative.

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Well, one of the reforms that Milchick mentioned in the first episode was that innies could quit. Of course, we learned in episode 2 that many things in that presentation were lies, but that part could in theory be true. (Except for, I imagine, Mark - they really need him for some reason.)

[Pi237]

  On 3/15/2025 at 4:56 AM, Dev F said:

I think he is talking to Helly. Several folks on Reddit pointed out that "You tricked me" could refer to how she deceived him into thinking she was Helena when they met at the gala at the end of season 1.

 

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Excellent point. That’s why I love this board. You all remember things I forget. 
 

I can’t believe we’re at the finale stage of the season already! Takes too long to get the next installment. 

[desertflower]

  On 3/15/2025 at 9:53 AM, arc said:

... Except the Dylans, who were both pretty steadfast in regarding their complement as a separate person rather than a facet of the same person.

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Yes! One thing I would’ve liked to have seen is outie Dylan asking Gretchen what his innie is like. If it were me, I would assume my innie is just like me. But I’d be curious if my loved one noticed any difference. Dylan just automatically thinks of his innie as a totally separate person. I think they could’ve had more of a conversation about what made Gretchen kiss his innie, and how can he tap in to that part of his innie that is missing or being obscured in his outie. 

[jacehan]

It's actually weird, though, because the last time they talked about Gretchen's visit, Dylan said "So how was visiting me at work?" So in that episode he thought of his innie as just being him.

[Affogato]

  On 3/15/2025 at 3:07 PM, jacehan said:

It's actually weird, though, because the last time they talked about Gretchen's visit, Dylan said "So how was visiting me at work?" So in that episode he thought of his innie as just being him.

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He did, but his marriage is probably not great. When was the last time Gretchen and oDylan had a moment?

[ombre]

I am so in awe of the way set and costume and casting and acting work together in the scenes in milchick's office. They have chosen colors that are so *stunningly* beautiful with his complexion - the deep blue of the walls and the rich browns of the wood desk. The set gives him this regalness. But that teeeeeny tiny picture of the iceberg (contrasted with the missing triptych from cobel's reign) gives such insight into his powerlessness. Two scenes of his "subordinates" being utterly insubordinate to him there and he's ready to go. TT has done such a fine job all season of showing milchick's inner strength in the face of absurdity and abuse. It is such a joy watching him finally use that strength. 

I have other thoughts, but I'm just really overwhelmed by appreciation for how much work went into his scenes. Just chefs kiss. 

[lovett1979]

  On 3/15/2025 at 2:48 AM, Red Fields said:

Can innieDylan quit? I thought that was only the outie’s prerogative.

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They can express their desire to quit, there's even a form created for that purpose (that we see Dylan filling out in this episode). But there's a spot on the form for the outie to agree or not. In Season 1, Helly attempts to quit but is denied by Helena. In the first episode of this season, Milchik offers to allow them to quit without needing the outie's permission but they all agree to stay so we don't know what would have happened if any of them actually tried to quit then. So I think outieDylan could probably deny this quitting request but was already feeling betrayed by his innie so would probably have no problem ending it all. 

[AstridM]

  On 3/15/2025 at 1:56 PM, desertflower said:

Yes! One thing I would’ve liked to have seen is outie Dylan asking Gretchen what his innie is like. If it were me, I would assume my innie is just like me.

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I’m guessing you have very strong opinions on nature vs nurture, then?

[Affogato]

  On 3/15/2025 at 7:41 PM, AstridM said:

I’m guessing you have very strong opinions on nature vs nurture, then?

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Mark thinks his innie is still Mark, but Mark without his load of grief and regret, without the baggage. I imagine most people would think, something like that, me without the weight of the world. That seems to be what Dylan, in fact, is…

[Affogato]

I imagine Kier was a bustling area back when the mines were running. Now it is old restaurants, old fashioned diners, old cars. Most of the mining and manufacturing plants have closed and been taken overseas. The college or university Mark and Gemma taught at was probably part of a city that has seen better days, and they likely could afford that amazing house because of low property values. We learned that Gemma will die if Mark finishes ‘cold harbor’, so it is good that we learned this before he went back to work. Maybe she will melt down into a liniment that will balance tempers. Or is it a program that can be run in the Severance chip, which will be dangled in front of the world, so they all will be severed. Like Soma. A drug to keep people placid, they can all  be innies. 

It is still winter, isn’t it?  Even with that, the mansion is not on attractively landscaped grounds. The beginning of this episode, the swimming, was different and cinematic. She is swimming in deep waters, indeed. 

I find myself worrying how Irving will manage, did he bring money? Are their credit cards, which he shouldn’t use, and ID to get another job. I hope he can contact another antiLumon cell and continue the good fight. If that is possible. He isn’t going to take a train to Svarlsbad or I’d wonder if he’d meet up with Miss Huang. This episode seemed to tie off his story for now, so I don’t think we will learn what happens to him until next year. 

Miss Huang should have facilitated better and is likely better suited to empathy work, whatever that is, poor Dylan. That was doomed from the start.

I continue to think Drummond is an Eagan. I wonder about the egg ritual and if it is an indication of purity. I wonder if there is incest in the Eagan family. 

I wonder if it is possible to take the export hall and have a different outcome than in the regular elevators. 

Cobel changed her appearance right at the end, good acting and camera work, and I am frightened to think what that means. 

[Affogato]

Mitchick, though, is taking his own destiny in his hands. Miss Huang has been a thorn in his side. He probably assumes that if the cold harbor is finished he will have some currency in looking for a better position. Drummond will not bother him until Cold Harbor is finished, but Mitchick may have problems if it is either completed or it definitively fails.

[maddie965]

About Cobel changing her appearance: well, that's exactly how she is shown in the opening credits animation, except she doesn't have a face there. She's like a Goddess or a witch, or both, overseeing the meeting between Mark's Outie and Innie. 

I do like that, but where's the explanation we need and deserve? Like someone said above, why haven't Mark and Devon made her answer all the hard questions? Or at least explain what she plans to do? Come on, show!!!

Irv can't be gone. He's the heart of the show. We need him. I need him.

Edited March 15 by maddie965

[Affogato]

  On 3/15/2025 at 9:39 PM, maddie965 said:

About Cobel changing her appearance: well, that's exactly how she is shown in the opening credits animation, except she doesn't have a face there. She's like a Goddess or a witch, or both, overseeing the meeting between Mark's Outie and Innie. 

I do like that, but where's the explanation we need and deserve? Like someone said above, why haven't Mark and Devon made her answer all the hard questions? Or at least explain what she plans to do? Come on, show!!!

Irv can't be gone. He's the heart of the show. We need him. I need him.

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I’m fairly sure that is a big part of the finale, with a side of Helena and Jame.

[Dev F]

  On 3/15/2025 at 3:07 PM, jacehan said:

It's actually weird, though, because the last time they talked about Gretchen's visit, Dylan said "So how was visiting me at work?" So in that episode he thought of his innie as just being him.

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It makes sense to me that oDylan wouldn't have a stable understanding of whether his innie is himself or a separate individual. Severance is a new technology that's still heavily debated, and oDylan seems like the character who's probably thought the least about the philosophical implications.

[Affogato]

  On 3/15/2025 at 9:39 PM, maddie965 said:

About Cobel changing her appearance: well, that's exactly how she is shown in the opening credits animation, except she doesn't have a face there. She's like a Goddess or a witch, or both, overseeing the meeting between Mark's Outie and Innie. 

I do like that, but where's the explanation we need and deserve? Like someone said above, why haven't Mark and Devon made her answer all the hard questions? Or at least explain what she plans to do? Come on, show!!!

Irv can't be gone. He's the heart of the show. We need him. I need him.

Expand  

Yes. Ben Stiller said on the pocast that observant people will notice the things that happen will reflect the opening credirs. 

[aghst]

  On 3/15/2025 at 8:41 PM, Affogato said:

We learned that Gemma will die if Mark finishes ‘cold harbor’, so it is good that we learned this before he went back to work. Maybe she will melt down into a liniment that will balance tempers. Or is it a program that can be run in the Severance chip, which will be dangled in front of the world, so they all will be severed. Like Soma. A drug to keep people placid, they can all  be innies. 

Expand  

Will Gemma, her whole being including her body perish?

Or maybe her personality or consciousness will be permanently erased?

Cold Harbor evokes some desolate pier in the winter, probably not having much activity.  This whole season has been set in the winter, except maybe there were flashback scenes of Mark and Gemma in a beautifully sunlit room, which is quite a contrast from just about every other interior space we see.  I also can't recall if season 1 was also mostly set in the winter or maybe there was little sun and most of the scenes had artificial lighting.

What kind of freight or catch would ships bring back to port in winter time?

Or would some places be so frozen that the harbor would be completely shut down, no activity at all?

One thing seems certain, Lumon can't let Gemma leave with her memories before  entering the Lumon building or what she endured inside.  So she is in effect gone from the world outside of Lumon, as far as they're concerned.

Hence the cover story about her dying in an accident, though there are theories that there really was an accident and they revived her somehow, severed her and turned her into a series of experiments.

 

[Affogato]

  On 3/15/2025 at 10:28 PM, aghst said:

Will Gemma, her whole being including her body perish?

Or maybe her personality or consciousness will be permanently erased?

Cold Harbor evokes some desolate pier in the winter, probably not having much activity.  This whole season has been set in the winter, except maybe there were flashback scenes of Mark and Gemma in a beautifully sunlit room, which is quite a contrast from just about every other interior space we see.  I also can't recall if season 1 was also mostly set in the winter or maybe there was little sun and most of the scenes had artificial lighting.

What kind of freight or catch would ships bring back to port in winter time?

Or would some places be so frozen that the harbor would be completely shut down, no activity at all?

One thing seems certain, Lumon can't let Gemma leave with her memories before  entering the Lumon building or what she endured inside.  So she is in effect gone from the world outside of Lumon, as far as they're concerned.

Hence the cover story about her dying in an accident, though there are theories that there really was an accident and they revived her somehow, severed her and turned her into a series of experiments.

 

Expand  

Boston Harbor used to freeze. So did Duluth and other parts of Lake Superior. Now it is less likely. 

[Kirbyrun]

Never mind.

Edited March 15 by Kirbyrun
Others have already made the point.

[seank941]

  On 3/15/2025 at 8:41 PM, Affogato said:

I continue to think Drummond is an Eagan. I wonder about the egg ritual and if it is an indication of purity. I wonder if there is incest in the Eagan family. 

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I think so too. I can't imagine there would only be one true descendent of Kier in the entire world. We know that Jame can have other children, and I don't think he would have stopped with one, especially a woman. In the perpetuity wing, Irv mentioned how controversial a female CEO was at Lumon. 

 

  On 3/15/2025 at 9:48 PM, Affogato said:

  On 3/15/2025 at 9:39 PM, maddie965 said:

About Cobel changing her appearance: well, that's exactly how she is shown in the opening credits animation, except she doesn't have a face there. She's like a Goddess or a witch, or both, overseeing the meeting between Mark's Outie and Innie. 

I do like that, but where's the explanation we need and deserve? Like someone said above, why haven't Mark and Devon made her answer all the hard questions? Or at least explain what she plans to do? Come on, show!!!

Irv can't be gone. He's the heart of the show. We need him. I need him.

Expand  

I’m fairly sure that is a big part of the finale, with a side of Helena and Jame.

Expand  

As much as I want all of this, I hope we don't get another info dump type of episode. I want to see the Gemma rescue mission unfold, so that Mark's storyline can progress a bit. It seems like he's been stuck for most of the season.

I do hope we find out why Gemma is so important. I know why she's important to Mark, but it's hard to care about her compared to Irving or Burt.

[Affogato]

I’m still weighing Helly/Helena. Obviously Helena is an expert swimmer and sophistcated egg eater.  I wonder of Helena could have been who we saw all along. The interchange with Mitchick. A little off for Helly. The walk maybe a little exaggerated . The WTF at the end of the episode. Yet, why is she memorizing the directions if —-maybe she can skip the switch from outie to innie but not carry words out of the floor ? Alternatively could she use the otc and tesch Helly how to ritually eat the egg? Leave instructions. Or are we just seeing the innie and the outie starting to feel the same dissatisfactions?

[arc]

  On 3/15/2025 at 2:48 AM, Red Fields said:

There are unanswered questions about outieIrving’s sleuthing and I don’t buy Burt’s explanation of his role at Lumon. It had to be far more significant.

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I dunno, on the other hand we could assume outie Irving's detective work was on point and he had very accurately determined what Burt's role was. Certainly that seemed to be how Burt took it. There's still some ambiguity because I think normally we would expect low-level goons to be the killers, not just the drivers.

Oh wait, I just had a brainwave: maybe Burt's victims weren't killed, but merely turned into permanent innies. Not that this is much better for the victims, but it would explain why Burt didn't handle that part: he's not a brain surgeon.

edit: little tiny detail, but file it in the ongoing list of anachronisms: Mark's phone isn't just an Android phone, but it has a headphone jack. Of course there are billions of smartphones in the real world with headphone jacks, but new-ish ones of the last four-five years have mostly eschewed them.

Edited March 16 by arc

[Ottis]

  On 3/14/2025 at 2:17 PM, overtherainbow said:

9 episodes in and still nothing about mammalians nurturable/the creepy goat people, why Irving was spending so much of his time painting those creepy dark corridors, what Helena’s motive was for talking to outie Mark at the Chinese restaurant, anything really about Jame Eagan, etc etc. Just a lot of cinematic shots and cliffhangers. And Cobel with her smug smirk, cold stare, and cryptic way of speaking is driving me crazy.

Expand  

Yep. Once again, this slooooooooooow show gives us maybe 1 or 2 tidbits, and a lot of meaningless drama. A few random thoughts:

- As usual, only one bit of dialogue per show makes my head snap up, and this time it was the outtie Dylan saying he might quit and "end the existence" of his innie. Dylan might be assuming that's how it works, when it doesn't. Who knows. But aside from that, all this side story did is ... raise more questions (surprise!). How is outtie Dylan "adrift"? He has a job, and he is a father from what we have seen. Is Gretchen pulling the old "you're not romantic anymore" game? Because what else could Innie Dylan offer, since there is nowhere to go and nothing to do. Flowers and a cardboard ring? If that's the case, Gretchen needs to think hard about her priorities.

- Marj and Cobel ... blech. For a guy who complains so much, Mark is as annoying as anything he complains about. He says little and takes forever to do anything. How long did he pace around before calling Milchick, anyway? Cobel, meanwhile, seems to have a mental problem, she talks so slowly and hesitantly.

- Cobel trying for a "gold thimble," some sort of goofy Lumon award for serving the family well, I guess. I chuckled because it reminded me of so many "awards" corporations give employees for the same thing.

- So innie Dylan, Ms. Huang and Irving (and poor Radar) all seem to be meeting an end of one sort or another. BTW, does no one in the outtie world ever notice things like, no one else is on the train they boarded? Is Irving resigned to his fate?

  On 3/16/2025 at 12:12 AM, seank941 said:

I want to see the Gemma rescue mission unfold, so that Mark's storyline can progress a bit. It seems like he's been stuck for most of the season.

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That's true of all of them. The most anyone has done is express dissatisfaction, and timidly walk down hallways.

  On 3/15/2025 at 9:39 PM, maddie965 said:

Irv can't be gone. He's the heart of the show. We need him. I need him.

Expand  

Any one of them (or all) can disappear IMO, I'm not attached to any of them, Each character brings their own frustrations when they appear on the screen. Mostly I respond in my head by mentally shouting, "DO SOMETHING."

I admit I enjoyed Milchick's showdown with Drummons and his dialogue there. You go, Milchick.

[Affogato]

  On 3/16/2025 at 7:06 AM, arc said:

I dunno, on the other hand we could assume outie Irving's detective work was on point and he had very accurately determined what Burt's role was. Certainly that seemed to be how Burt took it. There's still some ambiguity because I think normally we would expect low-level goons to be the killers, not just the drivers.

Oh wait, I just had a brainwave: maybe Burt's victims weren't killed, but merely turned into permanent innies. Not that this is much better for the victims, but it would explain why Burt didn't handle that part: he's not a brain surgeon.

edit: little tiny detail, but file it in the ongoing list of anachronisms: Mark's phone isn't just an Android phone, but it has a headphone jack. Of course there are billions of smartphones in the real world with headphone jacks, but new-ish ones of the last four-five years have mostly eschewed them.

Expand  

I did notice Miss Huang was picked up by a driver and Helena has a driver. I thought he had likely driven people to bad ends but also some people to work. But be felt guilt when some of the people he drove disappeared without a trace. 

[Dev F]

  On 3/16/2025 at 12:19 PM, Ottis said:

 But aside from that, all this side story did is ... raise more questions (surprise!). How is outtie Dylan "adrift"? He has a job, and he is a father from what we have seen. Is Gretchen pulling the old "you're not romantic anymore" game? Because what else could Innie Dylan offer, since there is nowhere to go and nothing to do.

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I didn't find myself confused when the show portrayed Gretchen as frustrated and discontent, considering it's portrayed her husband as lazy and disconnected, eager to spend money the family doesn't have on things they don't need, and unable to hold down a job pre-Lumon.

"He reminds me of how you used to be!" is a pretty elegant explanation for what's going on here.

  Quote

Cobel trying for a "gold thimble," some sort of goofy Lumon award for serving the family well, I guess. I chuckled because it reminded me of so many "awards" corporations give employees for the same thing.

Expand  

The "gold thimble" is not an award. Cobel and the security guard were exchanging code phrases:

"Miss Marsha White, ninth floor."
"Specialties Department."
"I'm looking for a gold thimble."

The codes are based on the plot of the Twilight Zone episode "The After Hours" we've been discussing elsewhere in the thread. Miss Marsha White is a customer who visits a department store looking for a gold thimble and is directed to the mysterious Specialties Department on the ninth floor, only to discover that it's a storage area for living mannequins and that she's one of them.