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S01.E03: The Hollow of His Hand

AimingforYoko

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dwmarch

dwmarch

  On 3/12/2025 at 1:04 AM, AimingforYoko said:

Was that really Frank?

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I don't think so. I get the impression that there is a group of dirty cops who take things too far and have figured out that they can blame it on the Punisher when they kill someone. The cops may have also figured out that increasing the apparent level of vigilante-on-vigilante crime is good way to get a boost to the police budget. I think Hector was killed by Officer Powell (the partner of the cop who died) because of the pistol to the side of the head method that was tried on Matt just last episode. While I'm sure he did use pistols (and any other weapons at hand) when necessary, Frank tended to go for longer guns when he was after someone.

  • Like 6
Morrigan2575

Morrigan2575

Man that episode hit hard. With the overlay of Fisk's interview and White Tiger going out, I knew it was going to end badly. Having "The Punisher" take him out was shocking as I expected one of Fisk's henchmen to do the job.

I don't really think it's Frank, I think it's a cop that idealizes The Ounisher m, we've seen a couple now with tattoos. I hope this means Frank will show up in Episode 4, I don't want to wait too long for him.

The Hector/White Tiger and Matt/Daredevil parallels and discussions were very well done. 

  • Like 5
thuganomics85

thuganomics85

Knew Hector/White Tiger was doomed after that opening scene, but it still hit harder than expected.  He just seemed like someone who really did want to do the right thing and help people, but thanks to a group of guys who are supposedly suppose to be the ones protecting this city, he gets set-up for a murder he didn't commit, and even if he manages to avoid the charges, someone; wherever it was through Fisk's orders or by their own accord; make sure he doesn't stay alive for long.  Bummer.  Kamar de los Reyes made the most of his screen time for sure and it hit even harder knowing he passed away last year.  He will be missed both within the show and without.

Will never be an expert on anything involving law and courtrooms, but I came away thinking that the DA/police's mistake was they went all in with trying to throw the book at him, while the smartest play would have been to focus just on the manslaughter charge.  Depending on how they worked it, they might have been able to sell the jury on it.  But by going all in like that, I can see why the jury just couldn't find him guilty: especially with the lack of real evidence and other factors.

While I get his strategy and it worked, Matt not telling Hector his plan to reveal him as White Tiger was a dick move.  And did Hector's wife know about his secret identity?  Damn, that's ruthless, Matt!

Fisk and Vanessa are still going to therapy, but can't even really discuss the main issue in front of Heather.  Because the core of it seems to be Vanessa doesn't like how Fisk's political ambitions is putting a dent on the power she acquired running the criminal world.  That's fair.  Let your wife have her own hobbies, man!

Bringing back the bird call for the credits was a nice touch.

Have to imagine it is pretty obvious that Hector's killer is not Frank/The Punisher, but one of the corrupt cops who worships The Punisher.  I know Matt will be disappointed me, but I'm so counting the days for when Frank hopefully crashes the party and decides to have some "talks" with these assholes who are sullying his alter ego!

  • Like 5
Raja

Raja

(edited)
  On 3/12/2025 at 5:16 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Knew Hector/White Tiger was doomed after that opening scene, but it still hit harder than expected.  He just seemed like someone who really did want to do the right thing and help people, but thanks to a group of guys who are supposedly suppose to be the ones protecting this city, he gets set-up for a murder he didn't commit, and even if he manages to avoid the charges, someone; wherever it was through Fisk's orders or by their own accord; make sure he doesn't stay alive for long.

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The Punisher's acolytes have to know he was really innocent and no way Frank would just revenge kill a soldier doing his job. On the other hand if Mayor Fisk is really trying to go another way, even with the chaos of a gang war would he green light or just look the other way for the hit on Hector?

My bet is either the vigilante copycat cop who shouldn't have passed the NYPD psych evaluation or a third party just getting revenge from a prior White Tiger action.

Another scene of the Kingpin's bloody knuckles along with Matt's as the one officer, Powell wasn't beaten as bad as it looked, I guess the other is on limited duties with a badly broken arm. If it was vengeance minded cops do they also try to find Matt alone? Does anyone besides the Fisk's, Defenders and Cherry know the Daredevil? The Wesley replacement "I don't represent the mayor", the other gangs know it was the kingpin, Vanessa, 

Edited by Raja
Orbert

Orbert

There are still some things I don't understand about WTF is going on, and I'm not sure if it's because they're rolling things out a little at a time and it will all make sense later, or I'm just having trouble following it.

Why is Mayor Fisk so dead-set against vigilantes?  As mayor, and as he himself has claimed, the welfare of the city is his highest priority.  He knows the police are corrupt and could be doing a hell of a lot better job protecting the city, if half of them weren't on the take.  The vigilantes (White Tiger, Daredevil, Spider-Man, whoever else is canon) help people.  But he treats them as though they are the enemy, and calls them that publicly.  As Kingpin, this would make sense.  A criminal obviously would prefer the cops to be as ineffective as possible, and vigilantes are certainly not friends.  But as Mayor Fisk, wouldn't he want all the help he can get?  I can only conclude that the whole Mayor Fisk thing is just a front, and somehow he'll use it to eventually regain the mantel of Kingpin.  Am I way off base here?

Who TF is Adam?  Someone Vanessa had something with, while Fisk was away.  I guess.  But I'm still not clear on what the problem is between them.  She ran things while he was away, he came back, and rather unceremoniously took the reins back again.  Is that what she's upset about?  They're a weird couple anyway, but in the Netflix series, I marveled at how well suited they were for each other.  They're both broken, but what's important is how their broken parts fit together.  I thought that was really beautiful when she said that.  In a weird way, the trouble those two are having is the most upsetting thing right now.

  • Like 1
Raja

Raja

  On 3/12/2025 at 3:50 PM, Orbert said:

Why is Mayor Fisk so dead-set against vigilantes?  As mayor, and as he himself has claimed, the welfare of the city is his highest priority.  He knows the police are corrupt and could be doing a hell of a lot better job protecting the city, if half of them weren't on the take.  The vigilantes (White Tiger, Daredevil, Spider-Man, whoever else is canon) help people.  But he treats them as though they are the enemy, and calls them that publicly.  As Kingpin, this would make sense.  A criminal obviously would prefer the cops to be as ineffective as possible, and vigilantes are certainly not friends.  But as Mayor Fisk, wouldn't he want all the help he can get?  I can only conclude that the whole Mayor Fisk thing is just a front, and somehow he'll use it to eventually regain the mantel of Kingpin.  Am I way off base here?

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Even if he has retired from crime, because of a costumed "hero's" powers he still used blackmail to get the police commissioner to do things his way. Besides Matt, with whom he has a gentleman's agreement with he can't use his leverage against the other "masked" vigilantes.  Presumably Luke Cage being open in Harlem and Jessica Jones also being an open enhanced person are not on the bad list with Peter Parker.

Kingpin does list Maya among the vigilantes. But she was just running the Track Suit Mafia and trying to take over what Vanessa took. I don't know if any New Yorkers know about her, just that Daredevil beat him down and someone later shot him. Besides adding the Eternals, Moon Knight, Cloak and Dagger I can't think of any others named but unknown to the MCU characters introduced to the "MCU" shows

Charlemagne

Charlemagne

(edited)
  On 3/12/2025 at 3:50 PM, Orbert said:

There are still some things I don't understand about WTF is going on, and I'm not sure if it's because they're rolling things out a little at a time and it will all make sense later, or I'm just having trouble following it.

Why is Mayor Fisk so dead-set against vigilantes?  As mayor, and as he himself has claimed, the welfare of the city is his highest priority.  He knows the police are corrupt and could be doing a hell of a lot better job protecting the city, if half of them weren't on the take.  The vigilantes (White Tiger, Daredevil, Spider-Man, whoever else is canon) help people.  But he treats them as though they are the enemy, and calls them that publicly.  As Kingpin, this would make sense.  A criminal obviously would prefer the cops to be as ineffective as possible, and vigilantes are certainly not friends.  But as Mayor Fisk, wouldn't he want all the help he can get?  I can only conclude that the whole Mayor Fisk thing is just a front, and somehow he'll use it to eventually regain the mantel of Kingpin.  Am I way off base here?

Who TF is Adam?  Someone Vanessa had something with, while Fisk was away.  I guess.  But I'm still not clear on what the problem is between them.  She ran things while he was away, he came back, and rather unceremoniously took the reins back again.  Is that what she's upset about?  They're a weird couple anyway, but in the Netflix series, I marveled at how well suited they were for each other.  They're both broken, but what's important is how their broken parts fit together.  I thought that was really beautiful when she said that.  In a weird way, the trouble those two are having is the most upsetting thing right now.

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In many respects, it's like any other wedge issue that one might find in the real world - like immigration.

Vigilantes might be popular with many folks on the street but that doesn't mean that vigilantes are universally loved. There are many reasons why Fisk - as mayor - would have a strong anti-vigilante position.

Starting with the fact that their activities are largely illegal.

They have no oversight, etc. What happens when one (or more) vigilantes start crossing the line? So a politician who wants to present themselves as being staunchly for Law & Order might take a position against vigilantes and then fundraise off of that as well as score political points.

 

Edited by Charlemagne
  • Like 2
Chicago Redshirt

Chicago Redshirt

  On 3/12/2025 at 6:55 PM, Orbert said:

That makes sense.  But what about the cops?  Not a word about him vowing to fix the problems with the NYPD (not that I can remember anyway).

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Most real world mainstream politicians act as though there's nothing wrong with the cops that getting rid of a few bad apples would not fix (not saying that stance is right or wrong, just saying that is the case).

No reason Fisk should be any different. Trying to crack down on bad cops isn't going to be to his benefit, especially given that (presumably) he/Vanessa have a number of the worst ones in their pocket.

A overweight businessman from New York who is a convicted felon and has a strained relationship with his wife...wonder why that seems familiar...

  • Like 3
Chicago Redshirt

Chicago Redshirt

(edited)
  On 3/12/2025 at 3:50 PM, Orbert said:

Why is Mayor Fisk so dead-set against vigilantes?  As mayor, and as he himself has claimed, the welfare of the city is his highest priority.  He knows the police are corrupt and could be doing a hell of a lot better job protecting the city, if half of them weren't on the take.  The vigilantes (White Tiger, Daredevil, Spider-Man, whoever else is canon) help people.  But he treats them as though they are the enemy, and calls them that publicly.  As Kingpin, this would make sense.  A criminal obviously would prefer the cops to be as ineffective as possible, and vigilantes are certainly not friends.  But as Mayor Fisk, wouldn't he want all the help he can get?  I can only conclude that the whole Mayor Fisk thing is just a front, and somehow he'll use it to eventually regain the mantel of Kingpin.  Am I way off base here?

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There's even less reason to think that Kingpin's priority is what would be best for the general public than the average politician, and more to think that he goes after what would be best for him in terms of pride/revenge and personal power.

Kingpin's relationship with vigilantes has...not been great.

Hawkeye/Ronin interfered with his crime empire, making Hawkeye afraid that Kingpin would come after his family if he knew.

Daredevil beat him up, blackmailed him and made him go to prison.

Echo shot him.

It's been way too long since I saw the Netflix Marvel series, but I'm sure Punisher also cost him something.

He knows how to put pressure on normal people. He can blackmail, buy, or bully just about anyone. Not so much with vigilantes.

Also, there is probably some political capital in taking an anti-vigilante stance. That's why we're told the DA personally prosecuted the White Tiger.

  On 3/12/2025 at 5:16 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Will never be an expert on anything involving law and courtrooms, but I came away thinking that the DA/police's mistake was they went all in with trying to throw the book at him, while the smartest play would have been to focus just on the manslaughter charge.  Depending on how they worked it, they might have been able to sell the jury on it.  But by going all in like that, I can see why the jury just couldn't find him guilty: especially with the lack of real evidence and other factors.

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Under the story Powell told -- that they were minding their business when Hector went crazy and attacked them and pushed/kicked/whatever the other guy into a train -- that could only be either 1st degree murder (he intended to kill the cop for no reason) or felony murder (he meant to commit a lesser crime like battery, didn't mean to have the bad cop die but in the midst of the battery, the other cop was killed). I don't think one could make a case for this being "just" manslaughter.

I imagine that Powell didn't want to spin a tale that might sound like manslaughter because he wanted the jerk whose intervention stopped the beatdown they were putting on their snitch and ended up in the partner dying to pay the maximum price.

As to the evidence, it comes down to Powell's word versus Hector's, and Hector seemed far more credible and was able to offer a better story. Which makes more sense: Hector, a known superhero, from out of nowhere and for no reason decides to attack two cops killing one of them without access to his superpowers and in contradiction to what was known about his character to this point, or Hector was intervening in two cops bullying a snitch who they have successfully bullied into lying about his whereabouts  

Edited by Chicago Redshirt
  • Like 3
lovett1979

lovett1979

  On 3/13/2025 at 5:05 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

It's been way too long since I saw the Netflix Marvel series, but I'm sure Punisher also cost him something.

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I just watched the original series (for the first time) so I think I can answer that. Fisk arranges for Frank to plead guilty and get sent to his prison (where he has most of the COs and prisoners in his pocket). He gets Frank to kill his 1 remaining enemy in the prison. Fisk then turns on him and leaves him to die by that guy's people. But he battles his way out, has a confrontation/fight with Fisk and Fisk arranges for him to escape the prison entirely. Frank does say that the next time he sees Fisk "only one of them walks away" (I just checked the episode) so we can expect any upcoming encounter to be following from that, even though there is no specific grievance that Fisk would hold against him.

  • Like 1
ZaleaBloom

ZaleaBloom

  On 3/13/2025 at 1:46 PM, KittenPokerCheater said:

I think I’ve decided I don’t like the love interest.

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Ah, come on, what's Heather done besides be a good therapist? I've actually decided I quite like her based off of how she responded to Matt bringing up his and Foggy's case win tradition. She noted it was the first time Matt had brought him up to her, clearly knew what had happened to Foggy, and understood Matt's grief over his death must have been complex so she didn't attempt to force him to talk about Foggy with her before he was ready. It was a subtle but great representation of how emotionally intelligent she is (I mean, yes, you would hope so, right, she *is* a psychiatrist but a surprisingly large amount of people are not able to use their work skills to inform their behavior in their personal lives, lol).

  • Like 5
tennisgurl

tennisgurl

I know that the original show was always dark, but this show is bleak. Every episode is such a downer, is anything good going to happen to anyone who's name isn't Fisk? Its bad enough that Hector was murdered right after getting his freedom, knowing what happened to the actor made it all even worse. Then the sound of the beach at the end, just pour salt into that open cut why don't you. 

I like Heather, she seems like a really good therapist and a nice person, hopefully she can recommend Matt a therapist for him to see. Since its this season, I assume that things with her will end badly. 

It looks like Hector was killed by a bunch of corrupt cop Punisher fanboys who have their own little cult that workshops the Punisher's violent murderous tendencies and want to carry them out on their own, we also saw a punisher tattoo on one of the corrupt cops who attacked Matt in the witnesses apartment. My guess is that Frank comes back to the show because of them, either because people suspect that he's involved or because he's annoyed at these wanna bees. 

  • Like 1
Ottis

Ottis

  On 3/12/2025 at 1:57 AM, Mr. Sparkle said:

I saw that ending coming

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Yeah, if this entire season is a sloooooooooooooooooow build up to Matt FINALLY putting on the DD costume again, I'm gonna be pissed. 

Stop wasting our time, show! Yeah, we get the parallels of Matt and Kingpin trying to change. We get it. We also know, it won't work - for either one.

So how about we just skip the writer circle jerk and get to the point?

  On 3/12/2025 at 5:16 AM, thuganomics85 said:

Knew Hector/White Tiger was doomed after that opening scene, but it still hit harder than expected.

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It didn't hit at all, because I almost fell asleep and missed it. We knew it was coming. That left us to drum our fingers for 40 minutes. They have the tone of the show back, and the actors (even if they all look much smaller than on Netflix), but the pacing is awful.

  On 3/12/2025 at 3:50 PM, Orbert said:

Why is Mayor Fisk so dead-set against vigilantes?  As mayor, and as he himself has claimed, the welfare of the city is his highest priority. 

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Dual reasons. The first is that in the Marval world, there are always some people who resent heroes in masks (see J Jonah Jamison) because it gets them ratings and support. The second is that this Kingpin employs political tactics that are currently popular, in this case, insisting on his view is right and ignoring any evidence that what he opposes for no clear reason might actually be beneficial, because he needs to be right both personally and politically. It creates conflict, though IMO in an annoying way that this time is saved only because we are seeing the same thing IRL (200-year-old people being paid SS benefits - oh no!).

Can we just skip to the almost certain ending, that Vanessa proves she was right, Kingpin (in a rage) reverts to what he is (and probably kills Vanessa in his rage) and DD is back in the suit and on the streets? I really hope we don't have to wait a whole season for this.

 

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

  On 3/12/2025 at 5:16 AM, thuganomics85 said:

.have to imagine it is pretty obvious that Hector's killer is not Frank/The Punisher, but one of the corrupt cops who worships The Punisher.  

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I honestly would not have guessed that the real life problem of dirty cops worshipping The Punisher, and completely missing the point of the character, was something that the MCU would be dealing with. So I am kind of impressed that they went there.

  On 3/12/2025 at 3:50 PM, Orbert said:

Who TF is Adam?  Someone Vanessa had something with, while Fisk was away.  I guess.  But I'm still not clear on what the problem is between them.  She ran things while he was away, he came back, and rather unceremoniously took the reins back again.  

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What I don't get is how long was Fisk away and where did he go. At the end of Echo she messed with his mind to help him process his childhood trauma. And when he is flying home from Oklahoma he learns about the NYC mayoral election. But in this show it makes it sound like he was gone for years (somewhere?) to recover from everything that happened to him.

Raja

Raja

  On 3/26/2025 at 2:49 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

I honestly would not have guessed that the real life problem of dirty cops worshipping The Punisher, and completely missing the point of the character, was something that the MCU would be dealing with. So I am kind of impressed that they went there.

What I don't get is how long was Fisk away and where did he go. At the end of Echo she messed with his mind to help him process his childhood trauma. And when he is flying home from Oklahoma he learns about the NYC mayoral election. But in this show it makes it sound like he was gone for years (somewhere?) to recover from everything that happened to him.

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In Echo we really don't know how long his recovery from the gunshot was before he went to bring Maya back "home" to New York and the head of the Tracksuit Mafia.  

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

  On 3/26/2025 at 3:57 AM, Raja said:

In Echo we really don't know how long his recovery from the gunshot was before he went to bring Maya back "home" to New York and the head of the Tracksuit Mafia.  

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But wasn't the end of Hawkeye where he got shot, like years ago, both in the real world and the MCU. But it wasn't years, in the MCU between Hawkeye and the Echo show was it. If that is what you mean that his time "away" was all of the time between Hawkeye and Echo?

Raja

Raja

  On 3/27/2025 at 2:05 AM, Kel Varnsen said:

But wasn't the end of Hawkeye where he got shot, like years ago, both in the real world and the MCU. But it wasn't years, in the MCU between Hawkeye and the Echo show was it. If that is what you mean that his time "away" was all of the time between Hawkeye and Echo?

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I don't know the timeline just that he was shot around a Christmas holiday season. They just suggested that Maya went after the Fisk holdings for months while she presumed that he was dead. Finally finding herself recovering from her on wounds when Fisk emerged to take her back to the organization in New York. And Echo ended with a Fisk unable to Kingpin hearing about New York's Mayor getting recalled so a few months to get through that special election

Kel Varnsen

Kel Varnsen

  On 3/27/2025 at 3:12 PM, lovett1979 said:

Hawykeye takes place (in universe) in December 2024. Echo is set 5 months later, in May 2025.

The first scene of Daredevil Born Again is in late 2025. Then jumps a year to late 2026, and we see NYE heading into 2027, which is where we spend most of the series.

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So was Fisk gone from NYC and didn't see Vanessa between Christmas 2024 and December 2026? Where was he for the time when he wasn't in Oklahoma?

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