Chit-Chat: The Feels

[Palimelon]

Quote

Anyone who thinks cancel culture is new and somehow a phenomenon of hypersensitive leftists might want to Google McCarthyism.

Shhhhh, you'll ruin the narrative...

Also, was Meghan McCain alive during McCarthyism?

[JustHereForFood]

5 hours ago, Makai said:

I don’t want to delve too far down this path but there is a long history with JK Rowling, so when she makes a posts it’s not just expressing on opinion. She has attacked specific people in extremely vile ways. Most recently the Taiwanese boxer who isn’t even trans. She, and others like her, saw a woman they perceived to be “too masculine” and who dominated her opponent in a gold medal match and started a furor with zero evidence. She was proven wrong and is being sued but continues to double down. 

And, she hasn’t been cancelled. She has a new series coming out based on her books and there are Harry Potter theme parks and video games that were built after she exposed herself as anti-trans.

Yeah, JK Rowling is not a good example of a cancellation. For one, she still has books being published and millions of people who buy them, she has her Xitter account where she can post whatever she wants. Maybe she is not invited to many interviews these days, but that is IMO more because people don't want her to start spewing controversial opinions. The same would probably be true if she had the opposite opinion and could not refrain from talking only about that. Is not like media is super pro-trans, some of them just don't want to be caught in some controversy. 

I remember on Graham Norton, Miriam Margolyes said that guests are now often told not to speak about the trans topic, but of course her being who she is (I mean that in a good way), she said, fuck it, I'm gonna talk about it. I think that was quite interesting, learning that yes, people are told not to speak too much about some topics (especially if it isn't relevant to what they are promoting, I presume).

Speaking of Graham Norton, he made a completely innocent comment last year that wasn't even aimed at Rowling and her squad attacked him so much that he left Twitter. Same with her recent attacks on David Tennant, who also didn't say anything negative about her. She can miss me with calling herself cancelled when she reacts like an angry child who can't stand people having different opinion about her new special interest and weaponizes her followers in such toxic ways. She can have her opinions all she wants, I already said that people can have any opinions about gender and we shouldn't demonize them for it, but the same has to go both ways and she refuses to accept that. I know that people who don't follow it closely think that she is just another celebrity who was called out for not being up-to-date with what is offensive, but she really is very wile in how she goes about expressing her opinions and she completely ignored it when people tried to talk to her in a polite way and explain how she is harmful. 

People can express their opinions, but those with large numbers of followers should IMO be a bit more careful about what they say, especially on topics where they are basically just talking about their own emotions instead of real facts and attack those who actually studied the topic - the same goes for antiwax, history, etc. 

5 hours ago, Palimelon said:

From Google:

A real woman is a living, material female human having measurable mass, volume, and location in the space-time. In contrary, a female who is not a real woman is a fictional character depicted in art, like a picture, movie, or video game.

If the definition has the word female, it is not trans-inclusive, so I don't think this is a good definition.

I hate that "what is a woman" thing that people use as some "gotcha" argument. Nobody asks what a man is. Also, shouldn't it be "who is a woman", at least? What seems a bit dehumanizing, but I'm not a native speaker and maybe I'm overthinking it. 

Still, the best answer so far seems to be "a person".

[Palimelon]

Quote

If the definition has the word female, it is not trans-inclusive, so I don't think this is a good definition.

Why isn't in trans-inclusive?

Quote

I hate that "what is a woman" thing that people use as some "gotcha" argument. Nobody asks what a man is.

Because for whatever reason, trans-men don't seem to trigger people the way trans-women seem to.

Quote

Still, the best answer so far seems to be "a person".

Yes, we are all people and persons, but some people don't seem to consider trans-women as real women/females/whatever word is your preferred choice.

[Ohiopirate02]

12 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

 

Because for whatever reason, trans-men don't seem to trigger people the way trans-women seem to.

While trans men have their own set of obstacles to overcome that rarely get talked about, I think the focus on trans women has a lot to do with existing power struggles in western society. Men are at the top, so AFAB individuals wanting to become a man makes sense. Conversely, why would someone AMAB give up the power and privilege given to them by being born with a penis? It's them choosing to demote yourself that fries people's brains. 

Edited Saturday at 03:16 PM by Ohiopirate02

[JustHereForFood]

31 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

Why isn't in trans-inclusive?

Because trans women were born male?

[Palimelon]

Yes, and females include women who are trans and who aren't, regardless of how they were born.

But if it makes you feel better, I can go ahead and edit my original quote?

Edited Saturday at 03:41 PM by Palimelon

[Avaleigh]

2 hours ago, JustHereForFood said:

I know that people who don't follow it closely think that she is just another celebrity who was called out for not being up-to-date with what is offensive, but she really is very wile in how she goes about expressing her opinions and she completely ignored it when people tried to talk to her in a polite way and explain how she is harmful. 

This is what it comes down to for me with Rowling. Were there some people who bit her head off when she made the original comment? Absolutely. However, there were multiple people who approached her gently and politely, and explained the nuances of the topic that she clearly wasn't getting. One time friends and colleagues reached out to her both privately and publicly to no avail; for the most part, she simply wasn't open to genuinely listening to dialogue from the other side. Her mind was firmly made up. Maybe she was still reeling from the fact that some people harshly called her out. I have no idea, obviously I'm not in her head, but I find it very disappointing that she still seems more concerned about her own hurt feelings over the blow up than the feelings of a group that is regularly used as a punching bag and scapegoat by people on the left and right.

The other part of the discussion that is troubling is how her stance gave her a new set of fans that are more than happy to tag team people who aren't okay with her position. It comes across as bullying. To be fair though, there are also some toxic people who have gone above and beyond as far as harassing Rowling about the issue. That isn't okay either and people who do that sort of thing are only giving ammunition to the person they're disagreeing with about these sorts of topics. 

[Ohiopirate02]

25 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

The Chicks being another example from a more modern time.

And Kathy Griffin fared far worse than other, male comics for her art. 

[Dimity]

Talking about who got cancelled or didn't get cancelled when you have an incoming President poised to go full on revenge mode as soon as his tuckus gets behind the desk in the oval office is a bit like complaining about a dripping faucet on the day the roof falls in. 

This is the man who sued a network because they dared to interview his opponent in the election.  Nixon had an enemies list - Trump has an enemies compendium.

Edited Saturday at 06:09 PM by Dimity

[peacheslatour]

Let's talk cancel culture. Doctor's who allow women having miscarriages to bleed out because they're afraid to do a simple procedure or face prison. Teachers who have lost their jobs for using their students preferred pronouns. Students who are punished by school boards and superintendents for reporting bullying. A woman run over by a car for walking across the street at a white supremacist rally, even though there were "fine people" on both sides. Black people killed by cops for simply having the temerity to exist. Women and girls who are assaulted and raped by politicians only to be pilloried in the press and called every name in the book by the same politicians. I can do this all day.

[Dimity]

2 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I can do this all day.

And you guy's ain't seen nothing yet.  I am torn between spending the next four years playing Candy Crush and avoiding the news or facing things full on and having a stomach ache for four years but at least not pretending all hell hasn't broken loose.

[Anela]

4 minutes ago, tearknee said:

The fact is that the love affair between the “queer left” and the Palestinians is entirely one-sided. The supposed affinity between Western academic queer activists and Palestinian terrorists is a fantasy - a rather masochistic and pathetic one, in my opinion. If they chose to express their solidarity with the Palestinian people by going to live in “Palestine”, they will learn very quickly what the Palestinians think of queers and indeed, queer Jews. The “Movement to Free Palestine” aims mainly to free Palestine of Jews, and the fact that many western left secular Jewish queer activists foolishly romanticize Palestinian terrorism won’t gain them an exemption, any more than Vivian Silver’s peace activism saved her from being murdered by Hamas.

About this supposed "Palestinian Queer Movement"?

No such movement exists, as you must know. There was a gay group called al-Qaws which briefly raised its head in the Palestinian Territories in 2019, only to be promptly banned by the Palestinian Authority. The only place Palestinian gay men can live openly is in Israel, which is why they risk their lives getting there. Gay men are regularly murdered, usually by their families, in the Palestinian Territories, and indeed throughout the Arab-Muslim world.

Plenty of Jews are not Zionists and that is their prerogative. It is not for me to tell Jews that they should be Zionists – I leave that to my Zionist Jewish friends. But it is for me (and those still reading) to argue with anyone, Jewish or not, who tells blatant lies about Israel or makes excuses for Palestinian terrorism.

Fortunately, not everyone on the left or in the LGBTI community is as deluded as. It has been very educational over the past 13 months to read commentators in the leftist Israeli daily "Ha'aretz", the sworn enemy of Netanyahu and all his works, expressing the incredulity, shock and anger of progressive Israelis at the attitude taken by Western academic leftists who make excuses for Hamas's atrocities and call for the destruction of their country.

To take one example of many progressive voices who have distanced themselves from this idiocy: the gay Canadian author Allan Stratton wrote: “Oct. 7 was a life-changing gut punch to liberals like me. It turned many of us into Zionists, including those once sympathetic to the Palestine Liberation Organization. The sadistic bloodletting of Jews in the land of their birth shoved the horrors of the Holocaust in our faces. It wasn’t just the gleeful depravity of the Hamas murders, rapes and burnings that changed the world. Or Hamas’s barbarous use of Palestinian women and children as human shields and corpse propaganda. It was also the celebration of savagery by far-left intersectional apologists".

And the US has politicians who are banning books that feature gay people, or gay couples, trans characters, etc.  Florida apparently has a “don’t say gay” law. They are probably going to try to overturn the law that allows gay people to get married.  

[Palimelon]

Quote

And the US has politicians who are banning books that feature gay people, or gay couples, trans characters, etc.  Florida apparently has a “don’t say gay” law. They are probably going to try to overturn the law that allows gay people to get married.  

By the logic of some on here, Florida should not be allowed to exist at all.

 

[Dimity]

6 minutes ago, Anela said:

And the US has politicians who are banning books that feature gay people, or gay couples, trans characters, etc.  Florida apparently has a “don’t say gay” law. They are probably going to try to overturn the law that allows gay people to get married.  

 

[Calvada]

7 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Doctors who allow women having miscarriages to bleed out because they're afraid to do a simple procedure or face prison. 

If a child rapist in prison has a heart attack, they are given medical treatment.  If someone is drunk off their ass and causes an accident that results in death to others and injury to themselves, they are given medical treatment.  Serial killers on death row are given medical treatment.  How can Republican voters rationalize why women who are losing a pregnancy are being allowed to die, why are they treated worse than child rapists and serial killers?  Fifty percent of those who voted are just fine with this.  At least until it happens to them or someone they love.  

[Bastet]

11 hours ago, Soapy Goddess said:

If I'm not saying anything offensive to that person's face, why should it matter what I say behind closed doors?

If something is offensive, it's offensive whether or not a member of the marginalized group it targets is within earshot.  That's where those who aren't members of those groups need to step up their game.  If a man says something sexist in a group of men, it's still sexist even though there are no women around.  Men need to let their bros know it's not okay.  If a white person says something racist in a group of other white people, it's still racist even though there's no member of the targeted group (or other racial/ethnic minority) around.  White folks need to speak up and say it's not okay.

9 hours ago, Annber03 said:

Honestly, I just wish the same people wringing their hands about kids' exposure to anyting LGBTQ+ related could channel that same kind of energy when it came to protecting children from getting shot at school. Y'know, the ithing that actually IS a problem that exists and something that many kids actually DO have to deal with in this country? Maybe we'd actually get somewhere on that issue for once!

I'm going to quote national treasure Wanda Sykes again, talking about states banning books and drag shows but not assault rifles:  "Unless a drag queen marches into a school and beats eight kids to death with a copy of To Kill a Mockingbird, you are focusing on the wrong shit."

Edited Saturday at 07:13 PM by Bastet

[Dimity]

11 hours ago, Soapy Goddess said:

If I'm not saying anything offensive to that person's face, why should it matter what I say behind closed doors? You can't control what people say when they're not around those who are easily offended.

I'm at a loss here.  How is this a concern for you?  If you are being offensive "behind closed doors" why would anyone know or care?  The fact that you are comfortable saying unkind things behind someone's back is not the topic under discussion here. 

[Palimelon]

I'll wait for the truth to be pointed out then.

[bluegirl147]

35 minutes ago, Calvada said:

If a child rapist in prison has a heart attack, they are given medical treatment.  If someone is drunk off their ass and causes an accident that results in death to others and injury to themselves, they are given medical treatment.  Serial killers on death row are given medical treatment.  How can Republican voters rationalize why women who are losing a pregnancy are being allowed to die, why are they treated worse than child rapists and serial killers?  Fifty percent of those who voted are just fine with this.  At least until it happens to them or someone they love.  

For some people it's simply about punishing women.  If for whatever reason a woman isn't birthing a child she must be condemned and/or punished. And for other people they have so committed to being pro fetus that they truly don't give a fuck about the woman.

 

[Palimelon]

They also don't seem to give a fuck about the baby after it is born.

[bluegirl147]

8 minutes ago, Palimelon said:

They also don't seem to give a fuck about the baby after it is born.

They don't.   While there may be some  people who have sincerely held beliefs that abortion is wrong there are so many people where their anti choice beliefs are performative.  They protest at clinics.  They deceive women with their pregnancy crisis centers.  They amass political influence to ensure anti choice judges are confirmed.  And yet they vote for politicians who continue to vote to dismantle any and all safety nets.  So they can miss me with their concern for the unborn.

[Enigma X]

52 minutes ago, Bastet said:

If something is offensive, it's offensive whether or not a member of the marginalized group it targets is within earshot. 

Thank you. Online and in person, I have been baffled by those who want to pretend not to understand this.

[peacheslatour]

Can we have a separate thread for the Gaza situation?

[bluegirl147]

4 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

Thank you. Online and in person, I have been baffled by those who want to pretend not to understand this.

As a white woman I have heard people say racist things thinking I either would agree with them or not care. I always let them know i do care and to not say that garbage in front of me again.   Or anyone for that matter.

[PRgal]

Seriously, the attitude many men have is the EXACT REASON why we need to pay attention to boys more.  And I'm not sure whether the WAY we're teaching them now is working.  And I'm saying this because I'm a Boy Mom and I'm worried.

[Makai]

Some small pieces of good news. The Senate has approved Biden’s nominee to serve as head of the Office of Government Ethics. I’m sure Trump will just fire them but hopefully there will be some accountability during the transition. Especially since Trump still hasn’t signed the ethics agreement as is require by law. 

About half of the Senate Republicans have come out against Matt Gaetz as nominee for AG. 

And finally, the head of the Federal Reserve has said that he will not resign under pressure from Trump. He is ready to fight to keep the Fed independent. 

5 hours ago, Palimelon said:

Why isn't in trans-inclusive?

Using female can be trans-exclusionary language because it is often used as a microaggression. The main definition is based on what biological organs a person is born with, so many anti-trans people use female to say that trans-women will never be women because they are biologically male. 

It’s also frequently used by incels as a way to dehumanize women. 

Edited Saturday at 08:34 PM by Makai
Why does my iPhone think especially isn’t a word🙄

[Enigma X]

10 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

As a white woman I have heard people say racist things thinking I either would agree with them or not care. I always let them know i do care and to not say that garbage in front of me again.   Or anyone for that matter.

I’ve been around my fair share of bigots in all forms, and sometimes the assumption is that because I’m a minority and they are too I’d agree, or because I’m cis, I’d be on board if they bash someone from the LGBTQIA+ community. And then there’s the kind where the bigotry is coming directly from someone who’s part of the very group they’re trashing. For some reason, they feel like that gives them a pass. No matter who does that in my presence, I shut it down. And I’m a quiet, introverted person, which is why I think some people try pulling that with me. Nope!

Edited Saturday at 08:21 PM by Enigma X

[JustHereForFood]

Seriously, so many topics now look like you need to pick one of the two options on opposite extremes.

"We really should not demonize men and make statements how cis white men are the worst and don't deserve the same consideration as other people and that misandry either doesn't exist or is based." and "Women don't owe men sex and/or relationships and men need to sort their issues like men's loneliness or severe misogyny among themselves." can coexist together.

[PRgal]

14 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I’ve been around my fair share of bigots in all forms, and sometimes the assumption is that because I’m a minority and they are too I’d agree, or because I’m cis, I’d be on board if they bash someone from the LGBTQIA+ community. And then there’s the kind where the bigotry is coming directly from someone who’s part of the very group they’re trashing. For some reason, they feel like that gives them a pass. No matter who does that in my presence, I shut it down. And I’m a quiet, introverted person, which is why I think some people try pulling that with me. Nope!

My grandmother was a bigot.  She had A LOT to say about people who weren't of Han Chinese heritage (save for Koreans and South Asians of most backgrounds.  She seemed to be okay with them).  Comments included how I needed to be a "good Chinese girl" and stay away from boys, unlike "Canadian" (read generalized White teenagers.  This includes ALL ethnicities) girls who dated at a young age (her only exposure to White teenage behaviour was through television and movies, which she didn't even understand most of the dialogue).  She was also hypocritical.  Though traumatized by the Japanese (which wasn't exactly direct since she was from Macau) and disliking them, she seemed to be fine with their technology.  I was so scared of her that I stopped inviting people over to my house (or even going to people's homes) when I was in middle and high school.  I had people of all backgrounds over when I was in elementary because, you know, we didn't go out with boys at that time.  Little did she know that most teenage girls didn't really date, especially in middle school.

Poh Poh also snooped around my bathroom and told me not to use tampons.  I was too scared to buy them, just in case she thought I WAS being a bad girl.  

ETA:  Poh Poh was born in 1923.  She had my uncle in early '47 and my mom a year and a half later.

Edited Saturday at 08:33 PM by PRgal

[Dimity]

14 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

And I’m a quiet, introverted person, which is why I think some people try pulling that with me. Nope!

Same, a lot of things will make me stew inwardly but I will stay silent for the sake of keeping the peace.  But not everything.  For me, growing up in Montreal, I used to hear a fair number of antisemitic slurs bandied about because, I guess, being a blue eyed blond with an Irish last name meant I'd agree or find these remarks funny.  They soon found out how wrong they were.

[PRgal]

19 minutes ago, Dimity said:

Same, a lot of things will make me stew inwardly but I will stay silent for the sake of keeping the peace.  But not everything.  For me, growing up in Montreal, I used to hear a fair number of antisemitic slurs bandied about because, I guess, being a blue eyed blond with an Irish last name meant I'd agree or find these remarks funny.  They soon found out how wrong they were.

I tend to stay silent too, but many seem to believe that staying silent means you DO agree with the “bad guy.”  I saw A LOT of that around social back in 2020.  

[bluegirl147]

3 minutes ago, PRgal said:

I tend to stay silent too, but many seem to believe that staying silent means you DO agree with the “bad guy.”  I saw A LOT of that around social back in 2020.  

Well Trump was elected because so many people didn’t vote.  When racists or any bad person isn't held to account they get emboldened. Look at Putin.

[PRgal]

8 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

Well Trump was elected because so many people didn’t vote.  When racists or any bad person isn't held to account they get emboldened. Look at Putin.

Some people don’t like flame wars nor do they want to trigger anxiety attacks.  

[Annber03]

3 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

This is what it comes down to for me with Rowling. Were there some people who bit her head off when she made the original comment? Absolutely. However, there were multiple people who approached her gently and politely, and explained the nuances of the topic that she clearly wasn't getting. One time friends and colleagues reached out to her both privately and publicly to no avail; for the most part, she simply wasn't open to genuinely listening to dialogue from the other side. Her mind was firmly made up. Maybe she was still reeling from the fact that some people harshly called her out. I have no idea, obviously I'm not in her head, but I find it very disappointing that she still seems more concerned about her own hurt feelings over the blow up than the feelings of a group that is regularly used as a punching bag and scapegoat by people on the left and right.

This. 

Also, she's a very wealthy woman. She shouldn't need to have people go on Twitter to try and educate her on this issue. She has plenty of resources at her disposal to allow her to learn more about what it's like to be transgender, and to understand them and their struggles. She can easily go - gasp - talk to actual transgender people to learn more about the aspects she doesn't understand.

And yet...she doesn't take advantage of any of that. Instead she doubles down on her opinions even after people have clearly explained why she is flat out wrong in what she's saying on this issue.  And that ties back to my earlier comment about how people who say things that they know full well are wrong, and who continue to spread misinformation, should be called out every chance they get. 

I don't expect people to be perfect and completely knowledgeable about topics or issues like this. I do expect them to be compassionate and understanding and willing to learn when they do mess up, and to be sympathetic to the struggles that marginalized groups go through, and not double down on any rhetoric or beliefs or policies that would only further add to those struggles.

And since JK Rowling apparently prefers to double down on her stance, then no, I can't respect what she has to say. And people have a right to call her out every chance they get, or refuse to work with her, or things of that sort, because of her toxic views. 

3 hours ago, Dimity said:

Talking about who got cancelled or didn't get cancelled when you have an incoming President poised to go full on revenge mode as soon as his tuckus gets behind the desk in the oval office is a bit like complaining about a dripping faucet on the day the roof falls in. 

This is the man who sued a network because they dared to interview his opponent in the election.  Nixon had an enemies list - Trump has an enemies compendium.

Good lord, THIS. To say nothing o how he literally got his way and will never have to worry about jail time for any of his crimes now. That should have the entire country in an uproar. 

(It will forever amaze me how the same people going around calling others "sensitive snowflakes" continue to support the biggest sensitive snowflake imaginable. I have never seen someone whine and complain about how "meeeeeeeean" people are as much as Trump has.)

3 hours ago, Is Everyone Gone said:

You know, this might come as a shock to you, but you can be gay, be appalled by the Palestinian record on LGBT people, AND still have compassion for the genocidal conditions right now in Gaza. 

Agreed. 

And yeah, there's a WHOLE lot of countries, the U.S. included*, who'd be under scrutiny if we're going by their record on LGBTQ+ rights.

*Let's lremember that the Reagan adminstration did nothing about the AIDS criss, because hey, it was a "gay person's disease", so who cared if they died from it, right? That's what they got for being gay, as far as the religious right were concerned. And that was just within the past 40 years. I'd say that's right up there with the sort of cruelty and abuse you hear about in other countries regarding how LGTBQ+ people are treated. 

2 hours ago, Bastet said:

I'm going to quote national treasure Wanda Sykes again, talking about states banning books and drag shows but not assault rifles:  "Unless a drag queen marches into a school and beats eight kids to death with a copy of To Kill a Mockingbird, you are focusing on the wrong shit."

Short and sweet and to the point. See, THAT is what "telling it like it is" is actually supposed to mean and look like. 

1 hour ago, Palimelon said:

They also don't seem to give a fuck about the baby after it is born.

Since he was mentioned in this thread, I'm going to quote George Carlin now:

"If you're pre-born, you're fine. If you're preschool, you're fucked." 

1 hour ago, bluegirl147 said:

As a white woman I have heard people say racist things thinking I either would agree with them or not care. I always let them know i do care and to not say that garbage in front of me again.   Or anyone for that matter.

I've had that happen, too. When I worked at our local bookstore, this guy came in one time to look at some books, and somehow he started going on about politics...

...and he just went off on the most racist rant about Obama (who was then president) and black people right in front of me. When he saw how stunned I was he stopped talking, but...yeah. It's amazing how some people seem to just assume that, "Oh, you're white, naturally you'll get how I feel about those minorities." No, not really, but thanks for publicly showing  eveyrone just how big an asshole you are. 

Edited Saturday at 09:37 PM by Annber03

[bluegirl147]

8 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

 

I've had that happen, too. When I worked at our local bookstore, this guy came in one time to look at some books, and somehow he started going on about politics...

...and he just went off on the most racist rant about Obama (who was then president) and black people right in front of me. When he saw how stunned I was he stopped talking, but...yeah. It's amazing how some people seem to just assume that, "Oh, you're white, naturally you'll get how I feel about those minorities." No, not really, but thanks for publicy showing  eveyrone just how big an asshole you are. 

It doesn't even have to be politics that activates the racism. I was once talking to a guy online and we were talking about hockey.  He said yeah hockey is great because there are no n words.  I was stunned.  I said I can't believe you just said that.  He told me to settle down.  I told him this is the end of our conversation and that was the end of any contact with him.  People need to be told their racism isn't acceptable.  Or we end up with a racist in Chief.

[kittykat]

I think for the most part people are just tired.  I'm tired.  I'm sick of seeing social media sites devolve into name calling and LALALAICANTHEARYOU! I can't expect it to change but the fact that vocal Trump supporters are feeling emboldened to gate crash every forum and gloat and call names and harass women and at-risk groups leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Again a lot of left leaning people have tried for years to voice their objections to hate speech and bigotry and sexism and feel like they get stonewalled by the other side.  I've seen more right leaning people say the same thing about us.  This thread i think has been a successful experiment that we can talk to each other and respectfully disagree.

To the right leaners from a leftie: if your points are well articulated, I may disagree, but I respect and will always defend your right to express those opinions as long as they do not devolve into hate speech or foment any violence towards any targeted group.

11 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

Let's lremember that the Reagan adminstration did nothing about the AIDS criss for the longest time, because hey, it was a "gay person's disease", so who cared if they died from it, right? That's what they got for being gay, as far as the religious right were concerned. And that was just within the past 40 years. I'd say that's right up there with the sort of cruelty and absue you hear about in other countries regarding how LGTBQ+ people ar treated. 

Rock Hudson was the turning point of AIDS awareness.  I know he was a closeted gay man but once it was brought to the public eye that straight white men could be infected then, whoa, suddenly it's a problem.

1 hour ago, JustHereForFood said:

Seriously, so many topics now look like you need to pick one of the two options on opposite extremes.

"We really should not demonize men and make statements how cis white men are the worst and don't deserve the same consideration as other people and that misandry either doesn't exist or is based." and "Women don't owe men sex and/or relationships and men need to sort their issues like men's loneliness or severe misogyny among themselves." can coexist together.

EXACTLY!  And I don't think enough men have not or will not make that connection yet.  No one is saying their voice doesn't matter but they need to learn they are not the ONLY voice that matters.

[Annber03]

6 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

It doesn't even have to be politics that activates the racism. I was once talking to a guy online and we were talking about hockey.  He said yeah hockey is great because there are no n words.  I was stunned.  I said I can't believe you just said that.  He told me to settle down.  I told him this is the end of our conversation and that was the end of any contact with him.  People need to be told their racism isn't acceptable.  Or we end up with a racist in Chief.

...wooooooooooow. 

What an idiot. You handled that well. 

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

I was so scared of her that I stopped inviting people over to my house (or even going to people's homes) when I was in middle and high school.  

My dad used to tell me about his mom having some racist views and attitudes, and he recalled one time when he brought a friend to his house after school. Said friend was black, and as a result, his mom immediately went around and started closing all the curtains in the house, lest anyone see there was a black person in their home. 

Obviously, this friend felt very uncomfortable and left soon afterward, and ohhhhhhhh, my dad just went off on his mom after that. 

(He also told a story once about how his mom wanted him to cut his hair before some church function, because she felt it was too long. He responded with, "Yeah, 'cause I'm so sure the church wouldn't want to associate with anyone with long hiar." :p.)

[bluegirl147]

11 minutes ago, kittykat said:

 

Rock Hudson was the turning point of AIDS awareness.  I know he was a closeted gay man but once it was brought to the public eye that straight white men could be infected then, whoa, suddenly it's a problem.

 

Also Ryan White and Elizabeth Glaser.  Two people infected by blood transfusions.   It wasn't just a sexually transmitted disease anymore.

Edited Saturday at 09:55 PM by bluegirl147

[RealHousewife]

I feel so much of what you all are saying!

There is someone I know who is obsessively anti-woke. If someone brings up sports, she'll say she isn't into sports since it got woke. I don't follow sports closely enough to know much other than sometimes players kneel to protest injustice. Not sure what else she could be talking about. If you bring up movies, she'll say oh I didn't want to see that movie because I heard it's woke. It's this pattern with her that I don't understand. Except for the stuff I'm posting about, she's pretty nice. I've never heard her say anything racist. She is married and has kids with a POC. I know she is politically conservative and is one of those who thinks conservatives are under attack, but I do know people who vote like her who are LGBT allies, care about racism, laidback about all the stuff she gripes about, etc. 

Every moment has extremists, and I don't love cancel culture. But being aware of injustice is a good thing, and I do believe in consequences. What's with some people acting like it's the end of the world if there is diversity training or acknowledging the country's history or current issues? This woman is white, cis-gendered, straight, not an immigrant, and has lots of money. I'm sure she's experienced hardship as we all have, but she is a really privileged person to have this victimhood mentality. I can't imagine her attitude if she had to assimilate into a new culture, learn a new language, come out to her parents, undergo operations to feel comfortable in her body, be anxious about being pulled over, have to worry about money, etc. 

[Is Everyone Gone]

Rex Chapman has spoken about this. How when he was in the NBA as a white dude, he got a lot of fans making racist comments to him thinking he'd approve, because they just saw a white guy.

[peacheslatour]

4 minutes ago, RealHousewife said:

I feel so much of what you all are saying!

There is someone I know who is obsessively anti-woke. If someone brings up sports, she'll say she isn't into sports since it got woke. I don't follow sports closely enough to know much other than sometimes players kneel to protest injustice. Not sure what else she could be talking about. If you bring up movies, she'll say oh I didn't want to see that movie because I heard it's woke. It's this pattern with her that I don't understand. Except for the stuff I'm posting about, she's pretty nice. I've never heard her say anything racist. She is married and has kids with a POC. I know she is politically conservative and is one of those who thinks conservatives are under attack, but I do know people who vote like her who are LGBT allies, care about racism, laidback about all the stuff she gripes about, etc. 

Every moment has extremists, and I don't love cancel culture. But being aware of injustice is a good thing, and I do believe in consequences. What's with some people acting like it's the end of the world if there is diversity training or acknowledging the country's history or current issues? This woman is white, cis-gendered, straight, not an immigrant, and has lots of money. I'm sure she's experienced hardship as we all have, but she is a really privileged person to have this victimhood mentality. I can't imagine her attitude if she had to assimilate into a new culture, learn a new language, come out to her parents, undergo operations to feel comfortable in her body, be anxious about being pulled over, have to worry about money, etc. 

I have definitely noticed a trend among conservatives to not care about other people's issues until it affects them personally. See Dick Cheney's gay daughter as an example.

[bluegirl147]

8 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

I have definitely noticed a trend among conservatives to not care about other people's issues until it affects them personally. See Dick Cheney's gay daughter as an example.

See Nancy Reagan with stem cell research hoping for Alzheimers treatment and cure.

[peacheslatour]

13 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

See Nancy Reagan with stem cell research hoping for Alzheimers treatment and cure.

Same with her good friend Rock Hudson being diagnosed with HIV.

[Is Everyone Gone]

14 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Same with her good friend Rock Hudson being diagnosed with HIV.

Actually, she totally turned her back on Rock and other Hollywood friends who were dying of AIDS. Nancy was a shitty, shitty person.

[Ohiopirate02]

45 minutes ago, Is Everyone Gone said:

Actually, she totally turned her back on Rock and other Hollywood friends who were dying of AIDS. Nancy was a shitty, shitty person.

I was a child during both of Reagans terms, so i have no real opinion of Nancy. She was the frail "just say no" lady and that's about it. It wasn't until I was an adult watching reruns of The Golden Girls that it dawned on me how little her contemporaries thought of her.  

[partofme]

On 11/15/2024 at 5:36 PM, Is Everyone Gone said:

Rock Hudson was a closeted gay man.  And he was a long time friend of Ron and Nancy and when he called then begging for help so he could get treatment in France they refused to help him.  
 

Not sure what happened that I quoted the wrong person here, I tried to paste the correct quote but my phone won’t let me 

Edited Saturday at 11:31 PM by partofme

[Annber03]

3 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I was a child during both of Reagans terms, so i have no real opinion of Nancy. She was the frail "just say no" lady and that's about it. It wasn't until I was an adult watching reruns of The Golden Girls that it dawned on me how little her contemporaries thought of her.  

That reminds me of an episode of "Frasier" where Niles was telling a story about how, early on in Reagan's presidency, Nancy was criticized for her lavish spending, so in response she appeared at some satirical dinner trying to play off that criticism a bit. 

Daphne: "And that made people like her again?" 

Niles: "Yes. Briefly." 

2 minutes ago, partofme said:

Rock Hudson was a closeted gay man.  And he was a long time friend of Ron and Nancy and when he called then begging for help so he could get treatment in France they refused to help him.  

I remember reading something about that recently, yeah. 

There is definitely a line from the Reagan mindset to all the chaos going on now. I've lost count of how many times on "Last Week Tonight" we learn about some Reagan-era pollicy that is still causing problems to this very day, or which kcikstarted a lot of the shit we're dealing with now. 

[bluegirl147]

12 minutes ago, Annber03 said:

 

There is definitely a line from the Reagan mindset to all the chaos going on now. I've lost count of how many times on "Last Week Tonight" we learn about some Reagan-era pollicy that is still causing problems to this very day, or which kcikstarted a lot of the shit we're dealing with now. 

If I'm not mistaken it was during his administration we first heard the phrase trickle down economics.  It was during his time in office they "borrowed" money from Social Security.  

[peacheslatour]

2 minutes ago, bluegirl147 said:

If I'm not mistaken it was during his administration we first heard the phrase trickle down economics.  It was during his time in office they "borrowed" money from Social Security.  

That was when Bush the Greater coined the phrase Voodoo Economics.

[bluegirl147]

8 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

That was when Bush the Greater coined the phrase Voodoo Economics.

Yep and two decades later his son did the same fucking scam.