S02.E08: The Queen Who Ever Was

[Affogato]

11 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Do "Rhaenyrys" mean Rhaenyra or Rhaenys?

It was obviously a typo and also obvious who I meant. I also am not sure what your point is. It is a long time until the next season. Have a good years. 

[AntFTW]

21 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think that Rhaenys did wrong - she gave Rhaenyra the choice to accept Aegon as king (the terns were good) or to fight for right.

...and I also think that Rhaenys had, genuinely, not chosen a side. To me, it seems like she thought it wasn't her fight in that moment.

Edited August 11 by AntFTW

[goldilocks]

Have we started the dragon lessons yet? 😁

That was a lacklustre finale. I agree that too much emphasis was put on Rhaenyra and Alicent, storming or moping around. And I don’t need major action, but I do like seeing the dragons. Which is probably why I liked episode 7 so much.

[paigow]

Next season should resolve all the bad parenting issues because most of the characters will die.

[baldryanr]

14 hours ago, paigow said:

Next season should resolve all the bad parenting issues because most of the characters will die.

That'll happen in season 4 - they're not going to want to trim the cast until then.  That being said, for all the talk about how anyone can die, seasons 1 and 2 only had one main character die in each: Viserys and Rhaenys. 

[ferjy]

On 8/5/2024 at 10:08 PM, Sakura12 said:

Poor Caraxs was so happy to see his friends. He was screaming guys I'm down here, get me out of here, this place sucks. Lol

 

On 8/6/2024 at 10:44 AM, CountryGirl said:

He really was.

Ha ha! I thought when he was woken up, he was going to be pissed and there was going to be Hell to pay. I was waiting for him to start spewing flames. But poor thing just wanted to fly with his friends. 

 

[Shrek]

My thoughts on the finale were "is that it?". 

[magdalene]

4 hours ago, baldryanr said:

hat'll happen in season 4 - they're not going to want to trim the cast until then.  That being said, for all the talk about how anyone can die, seasons 1 and 2 only had one main character die in each: Viserys and Rhaenys. 

Oh, some main characters will die next season. I am just hoping they switch certain events around a bit so my favorites stick around into the final season. 

And after learning what financial trouble WB is in I am dubious they will give HOTD enough money and episodes so the show can do the remaining two seasons on the scale the story needs. Meanwhile I am staying subscribed to Max to support the show. Because if WB gets sold off to the highest bidder or goes under....

[ferjy]

On 8/5/2024 at 10:02 AM, proserpina65 said:

I don't think Aemond actually was willing to truly hurt Helaena but him just threatening her made me sad. 

That disappointed me too. Aemond seemed smarter in the beginning and had some compassion, particularly with Helaena. Now they seem to be making him into an outright villain. I preferred his earlier complexity to this. I know that power can go to your head, and that he’s under pressure, but that was a quick switcheroo. They are two of my favorite actors so I was hoping for more interaction with them  Now Helaena will probably disappear into the mist and Aemond will get more and more vicious and finally die in battle (or be poisoned, or eaten by starving dogs, barring Helaena’s prophesy.)

 

[Lady S.]

On 8/10/2024 at 8:17 PM, AntFTW said:

...and I also think that Rhaenys had, genuinely, not chosen a side. To me, it seems like she thought it wasn't her fight in that moment.

I also wonder how much of that was because she and Rhaenyra did not start out on the best of terms, teenage Nyra not even recognizing they were in the same position. Why should she do all the hard work of securing the throne for such a daughter-in-law when it should have been hers in the first place, yet there was nobody to do that for her? Just hand the throne to that brat who may not have murdered her son but certainly cheated on him and wasted no time mourning him? I think she and Corlys never really had the option of nuetrality once the war started, not with Baela and Rhaena on Dragonstone, betrothed to Rhaenyra's boys and Baela a dragonrider to boot, but key words there are once the war started. Rhaenys had plenty of emotional reason to hesistate starting things on Rhaenyra's behalf, and no personal reason to kill Alicent/Aegon and co. when all they'd done to her was confine her in the castle for a few hours and she probably respected Rhaenyra no more than she did Alicent.

 

On 8/9/2024 at 8:33 AM, paigow said:

She was the Obi-Wan Kenobi proxy... passing on the opportunity to kill an obviously evil Anakin- twice

Whoa, and then the next time she and Aegon met, he ended up burned like Anakin except it wasn't even her dragonfire that did it.

In all seriousness, I don't think any one player can be responsible for starting this war or failing to prevent it but they certainly all had a hand in their own way in making things worse. Whoever Viserys remarried, so long as he had a surviving son, there'd be people wanting that son on the throne, and Daemon was always gonna be a wild card. I do blame Otto for putting his own bloodline in danger just for the chance of a grandson on the throne, when he supposedly already believed Daemon was willing to kill any kin to gain power. Similarly, I blame Viserys as a father for sticking his head in the sand to try to keep everybody happy. He failed to strengthen Rhaenyra's position so as not to ruin things with his nursemaid/bedwarmer, while ignoring his children by that younger wife after Aegon's 2nd nameday, ensuring there'd be no ties of kinship between the eldest child and her half-siblings. Then the sins of the fathers Otto and Viserys were passed down to Alicent and Rhaenyra, then onto their sons mutilating and killing each other.

[AntFTW]

16 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

I also wonder how much of that was because she and Rhaenyra did not start out on the best of terms, teenage Nyra not even recognizing they were in the same position. Why should she do all the hard work of securing the throne for such a daughter-in-law when it should have been hers in the first place, yet there was nobody to do that for her?

It seems like she wasn't on the best of terms with either side considering the Greens had just locked her in her room and weren't going to let her escape.

[Lady S.]

On 8/7/2024 at 8:57 AM, proserpina65 said:

Aegon didn't care about being a good king.  He just wanted people to like him.

 

They'd still be seriously outnumbered dragon-wise, though, and still need Dreamfyre to have any chance of protecting Kings Landing against Rhaenyra's dragons.  I'm not saying the decision to burn Aegon & Sunfrye wasn't bad, but even if that hadn't happened, they'd still be pretty desperate for another dragon at this point.

I'm not saying Aegon was a responsible ruler or that he wasn't being entitled by saying things like "mine are bigger" as if Vhagar were his, but if the original point was about him inviting Aemond onto the council I don't think that was about him being selfish. He didn't need Aemond on the council to have him fight on Vhagar or else Otto would have given Aemond a council seat himself and Aemond wouldn't now be expecting Helaena to fight on Dreamfyre without granting her a council seat.

Also think it's worth looking at Aemond's words while grabbing Helaena, "They have diluted our birthright, made commoners into dragonlords! It is a sin and must be punished!". He has good reason to fear for all their lives but this is also very much an ego thing making him rage, hence why he just destroyed a town for no good reason. (Their lord being sworn to Rhaenyra does not mean there was any real strategic advantage in torching the place when their real enemies are on Dragonstone and in the Riverlands.) Interesting that this not only makes him sound more of a Valyrian blood supremicist and classist than Daemon or Jace, but also means he agrees with Jace that these bastards are not the same as Rhaenyra's. A brown-haired nephew raised as a prince with a dragon his whole life, born to two highborn official parents and a highborn natural father is no threat to him, but some rando peasant off the streets of unknown Targ ancestry riding an older, big dragon is an existental threat to his ego. And that would be true no matter how many dragonriders there were left on Team Green because he's built his whole identity on claiming the oldest, biggest dragon and if it's possible for any bozo to do that that ruins it for him. Before this, Team Black already had them outnumbered with 3 adult dragons with willing dragonriders and it was possible Meleys + Caraxas and/or Syrax could have taken down him and Vhagar, or at the very least killed him while injuring Vhagar, yet he still acted as if not only Vhagar but he himself were invulnerable and he could win the war all by himself. I don't think he had ever thought of the possible need to involve Helaena and Dreamfyre until now when he's truly desperate.

 

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, magdalene said:

Oh, some main characters will die next season. I am just hoping they switch certain events around a bit so my favorites stick around into the final season. 

But that would mean that other characters were robbed of motives and their roles and aims would be different and thus the whole pattern of the power struggle would change. 

6 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I also wonder how much of that was because she and Rhaenyra did not start out on the best of terms, teenage Nyra not even recognizing they were in the same position. Why should she do all the hard work of securing the throne for such a daughter-in-law when it should have been hers in the first place, yet there was nobody to do that for her? Just hand the throne to that brat who may not have murdered her son but certainly cheated on him and wasted no time mourning him? I think she and Corlys never really had the option of nuetrality once the war started, not with Baela and Rhaena on Dragonstone, betrothed to Rhaenyra's boys and Baela a dragonrider to boot, but key words there are once the war started. Rhaenys had plenty of emotional reason to hesistate starting things on Rhaenyra's behalf, and no personal reason to kill Alicent/Aegon and co. when all they'd done to her was confine her in the castle for a few hours and she probably respected Rhaenyra no more than she did Alicent.

That.

She also had given up her own ambition and resented that of her husband.

[Roseanna]

6 hours ago, Lady S. said:

In all seriousness, I don't think any one player can be responsible for starting this war or failing to prevent it but they certainly all had a hand in their own way in making things worse. Whoever Viserys remarried, so long as he had a surviving son, there'd be people wanting that son on the throne, and Daemon was always gonna be a wild card. I do blame Otto for putting his own bloodline in danger just for the chance of a grandson on the throne, when he supposedly already believed Daemon was willing to kill any kin to gain power. Similarly, I blame Viserys as a father for sticking his head in the sand to try to keep everybody happy. He failed to strengthen Rhaenyra's position so as not to ruin things with his nursemaid/bedwarmer, while ignoring his children by that younger wife after Aegon's 2nd nameday, ensuring there'd be no ties of kinship between the eldest child and her half-siblings. Then the sins of the fathers Otto and Viserys were passed down to Alicent and Rhaenyra, then onto their sons mutilating and killing each other.

That. It was escalation. Otto was an active schemer but Viserys' passivity was as harmful if not more as he had power but he didn't use it.

[proserpina65]

On 8/8/2024 at 5:14 PM, baldryanr said:

Their desire for Rhaenyra & Alicent means she needs to take KL immediately.  Then they can have daily chats about the state of things while her Council wonders why she's spending so much time talking to their enemy instead of them.

That would make too much sense.  And move the narrative along far too quickly for the glacial pace we got this season.

On 8/9/2024 at 8:05 AM, baldryanr said:

Or Viserys, who should have abdicated once he really started going downhill. 

If Viserys had wanted Rhaenyra to succeed him with the least resistance, he shouldn't have remarried.  Once he did and had sons with the second wife, no matter who that wife was, he guaranteed there would be a war over the succession.

On 8/9/2024 at 1:23 PM, Roseanna said:

I don't believe that the ability to raise children guarantees the ability to govern the realm and especilly to wage war.

There's absolutely no connection between the two.

 

22 hours ago, Shrek said:

My thoughts on the finale were "is that it?". 

That was my BFF's thought as well.  It would've been an okay (not great) episode but it was a lousy season finale.

Edited August 13 by proserpina65

[proserpina65]

15 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Whoever Viserys remarried, so long as he had a surviving son, there'd be people wanting that son on the throne,

I feel like a lot of people miss this point: that a son, any son of any 2nd wife, was always going to be a major impediment to Rhaenyra successfully taking the throne.  Because many of the Houses would not have accepted a woman on the throne as long as there was a son they could support instead.

13 hours ago, Lady S. said:

I'm not saying Aegon was a responsible ruler or that he wasn't being entitled by saying things like "mine are bigger" as if Vhagar were his, but if the original point was about him inviting Aemond onto the council I don't think that was about him being selfish.

I don't even remember what the original point was.  Or if I had one at all.

 

[paigow]

16 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I don't even remember what the original point was.  Or if I had one at all.

Also frequently heard in the writers room....

[AntFTW]

 

[baldryanr]

5 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

That was my BFF's thought as well.  It would've been an okay (not great) episode but it was a lousy season finale.

It was a good episode eight of a ten episode season.  Episode 9?  Big battles!  Episode 10?  The aftermath.

[proserpina65]

14 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

It was a good episode eight of a ten episode season.  Episode 9?  Big battles!  Episode 10?  The aftermath.

I'd have been satisfied with episode 9 - big battle, and leaving the aftermath until the next season, even.

[Shrek]

I would have been happy with absolutely anything actually happening. I thought season finales were supposed to have some sort of cliffhanger to make you eager to watch the next season but I certainly won't be looking out for this coming back. Turgid is a word that springs to mind.

[proserpina65]

15 minutes ago, Shrek said:

I would have been happy with absolutely anything actually happening. I thought season finales were supposed to have some sort of cliffhanger to make you eager to watch the next season but I certainly won't be looking out for this coming back. Turgid is a word that springs to mind.

I'd like to say I'd not be looking out for the next season, but as long as Aemond's there, so am I.  But this finale was a huge disappointment.  Turgid is indeed the word.

[baldryanr]

2 hours ago, Shrek said:

I would have been happy with absolutely anything actually happening. I thought season finales were supposed to have some sort of cliffhanger to make you eager to watch the next season but I certainly won't be looking out for this coming back. Turgid is a word that springs to mind.

GOT liked having a lot of big battles and big moments in episode 8 or 9 of a 10 episode season.  Ned dying, the Battle of the Blackwater, the Red Wedding, Oberyn vs the Mountain, Hardhome, the Battle of the Bastards.  None of that was in the season finale, which used those events to set up the actual cliffhanger that was based on a payoff from the big events.

This episode?  Just moving pieces around after an entire season of moving pieces around.

[magdalene]

18 hours ago, Roseanna said:

But that would mean that other characters were robbed of motives and their roles and aims would be different and thus the whole pattern of the power struggle would change. 

I don't care. I want Matt Smith around as long as possible. I am sure the Ewan Mitchell fans would agree with me. Seriously, characters like Daemon and Aemond drive story and motivate other characters. Now they can kill Alicent off early next season for all I care - though I know I won't be that lucky.

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, magdalene said:

Seriously, characters like Daemon and Aemond drive story and motivate other characters.

Isn't motivation inside characters? Love, lust, fear, hate, envy, jealousy, greed. They all want something and/or want to avoid something. 

Or do you mean that only Daemon and Aemond act and other characters only react to their action? I don't think that's so simple. Daemon spent most of the season moping and reacting to Alys and Larys saved Aegon from Aemond. 

I think it's interesting that although Daemon killed his first wife and ordered to kill Aemons's little son, people don't condemn him, unlike Aemond, because he is so charismatic.     

  

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Isn't motivation inside characters? Love, lust, fear, hate, envy, jealousy, greed. They all want something and/or want to avoid something. 

Or do you mean that only Daemon and Aemond act and other characters only react to their action? I don't think that's so simple. Daemon spent most of the season moping and reacting to Alys and Larys saved Aegon from Aemond. 

I think it's interesting that although Daemon killed his first wife and ordered to kill Aemons's little son, people don't condemn him, unlike Aemond, because he is so charismatic.     

  

They have given enough room for Daemon truthers to doublethink their way into well maybe Daemon only mercykilled his wife rather than murdered her, or maybe he didn't order the assassins to kill Aegon's heir and they just did it themselves.

The show has removed much of the ability to rationalize Aemond's deeds. Though it did straight-up show that he did not intend to kill Luke and that was Vhagar getting pissed.

Also, even though they may spend time instilling doubt, Daemon does seem to have love and affection in him. He  truly loved Viserys, his second wife, Rhae and I think his kids.

I don't know if Aemond loves anyone.

[paigow]

18 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Turgid is indeed the word.

 

[magdalene]

5 hours ago, Roseanna said:

and ordered to kill Aemons's little son

Aemond doesn't have a son.

[proserpina65]

8 minutes ago, magdalene said:

Aemond doesn't have a son.

I believe that was a typo and the OP meant Aegon.

16 hours ago, magdalene said:

I don't care. I want Matt Smith around as long as possible. I am sure the Ewan Mitchell fans would agree with me. Seriously, characters like Daemon and Aemond drive story and motivate other characters. Now they can kill Alicent off early next season for all I care - though I know I won't be that lucky.

I wouldn't be opposed to moving things around to keep Ewan on my screen as long as possible IF the writers made it work with the characters' established motivations.  But there's not way in hell that I'd trust this bunch to get that right at this point.

I'd be fine with killing off Alicent because she became tiresome this season but that isn't going to happen.  Hell, I'd love it if they got rid of Rhaenyra since I can't stand her hypocritical ass but that would pretty much end the story, so . . . 

Edited August 14 by proserpina65

[baldryanr]

6 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think it's interesting that although Daemon killed his first wife and ordered to kill Aemons's little son, people don't condemn him, unlike Aemond, because he is so charismatic.   

Why is it interesting?  It happens all the time.  For example, because it was two years ago in the real world, a whole lot of viewers have forgotten or are happy to ignore Aegon raping serving girls, enjoying child fighting pits (which included his own bastards), etc.  Instead, thanks to TGC's great performance they feel sorry for the guy whose father ignored him, whose son was horrifically murdered, etc.  Everything can be excused because he's a victim of his upbringing.  Oh, and since Aemond has gone full villain, he's even more of a victim.

[AntFTW]

4 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I wouldn't be opposed to moving things around to keep Ewan on my screen as long as possible IF the writers made it work with the characters' established motivations.  But there's not way in hell that I'd trust this bunch to get that right at this point.

This makes me wonder how many seasons could they make of this show, and still make the story make sense.

[paigow]

40 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

how many seasons could they make of this show, and still make the story make sense.

$

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

This makes me wonder how many seasons could they make of this show, and still make the story make sense.

I think they've announced that the series is being capped at four seasons. 

Of course, it depends on how quickly or slowly they let things happen.

In 8 episodes this season, not all that much actually developed in terms of big picture plot points. 

I could easily see a couple episodes next season dedicated to more setup, training of the Dragonseeds, political stuff, and it taking till about episode 3-4 before we have our next big dragon battle/major death.

Not a spoiler because a) I don't remember much from Fire and Blood and b) it's unclear how closely that will be followed anyway: but before all is said and done, there's a lot of dragons and characters who are going to go down, and I imagine it's something that they (hopefully) will spread out properly among the 16-20 episodes that they have left rather than just stall for a bunch of episodes and then kill 'em all (almost) in the series finale. 

[Oscirus]

 

11 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I'd be fine with killing off Alicent because she became tiresome this season but that isn't going to happen.  Hell, I'd love it if they got rid of Rhaenyra since I can't stand her hypocritical ass but that would pretty much end the story, so . . . 

Rhaenyra going on her religious heel turn  ( it's subtle but there) will probably make her interesting by the end of season 3, I dont think there is any saving Alicents character.  Even if she goes dark at this point, it'll be too little too late

[paigow]

No major Team Green players are at the blockade. They are headed to the Riverlands. See if it takes the whole of next season before anyone arrives.

[proserpina65]

21 hours ago, AntFTW said:

This makes me wonder how many seasons could they make of this show, and still make the story make sense.

Honestly, 4 seasons sounds about right but that doesn't mean the writing will make it make sense.  Especially if they still take episodes at a time to set things up, like pretty much the entirety of season 2 (except for ep 4).

 

[NeenerNeener]

On 8/11/2024 at 4:20 PM, paigow said:

Next season should resolve all the bad parenting issues because most of the characters will die.

Well, at least that little dog didn't die on screen this season.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, NeenerNeener said:

Well, at least that little dog didn't die on screen this season.

Monumental HR fail in not hiring new ratcatchers... Toto might get recruited next season

[proserpina65]

11 hours ago, paigow said:

Monumental HR fail in not hiring new ratcatchers... Toto might get recruited next season

Now I'm wondering what qualifications are required of ratcatchers in Westeros.  Are there specialized skills which require years of training, or could just anyone do the job?  If it's the latter, it was definitely a mistake not to hire some new ones.  Apparently not even Alicent, for all her professed experience and wisdom, didn't think of it.

[paigow]

11 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Now I'm wondering what qualifications are required of ratcatchers in Westeros.  Are there specialized skills which require years of training, or could just anyone do the job? 

Aemond should recall Johnny Drama & Turtle from The Wall

[Roccos Brother]

Well, that felt like a whole lot of filler nothing.

I don't know if it's the acting, writing, direction, or some combination of the three but there were a lot of very amateur and cringeworthy scenes this episode. The interaction between Alicent and Rhaenyra was completely redundant and contrived. They already had this exchange and it added nothing to the plot, it was just more back and forth venting/whining about how terrible they feel.

Another terribly written and acted scene was Cole's monologuing. He really phoned in with that performance and once again, the scene added nothing.

Daemon's entire arc this season is giving "this could have been an email" vibes. They really dragged that storyline out only to (largely) end up back where they started.

Edited August 17 by Roccos Brother

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Roccos Brother said:

Daemon's entire arc this season is giving "this could have been an email" vibes. 

 

[Roseanna]

12 hours ago, Roccos Brother said:

Well, that felt like a whole lot of filler nothing.

I don't know if it's the acting, writing, direction, or some combination of the three but there were a lot of very amateur and cringeworthy scenes this episode. The interaction between Alicent and Rhaenyra was completely redundant and contrived. They already had this exchange and it added nothing to the plot, it was just more back and forth venting/whining about how terrible they feel.

Another terribly written and acted scene was Cole's monologuing. He really phoned in with that performance and once again, the scene added nothing.

Daemon's entire arc this season is giving "this could have been an email" vibes. They really dragged that storyline out only to (largely) end up back where they started.

I beg to differ. 

Alicent and Rhaenyra's two discussion weren't only different, they were actually opposite.

Earlier Rhaenyra went to Alicent with the aim to prevent the war, under the delusion that Alicent (who had no power) could make it happen *and* unwilling to realize and admit to herself that the only chance to peace was her own bending knee to Aegon.

Now Alicent went to Rhaenyra, confessing her past mistakes and with an offer to open her the gates of KL, i.e. to betray the Blacks and, from Rhaenyr's demand, even let her son Aegon to be killed, in order to make the war shorter but most to get herself and Helaena live somewhere in peace - probably a futile hope. And what did she think would happen to her lover, her brother and third son?

Cole's monologue was something new. Unlike Alicent, he wasn't under any illusion but realized that whatever the outcome would be, it would be bad.

Although Daemon's arc was far too long, he realized his past mistakes and that he was only a part of the story that was bigger than himself - only, I have difficulties to believe it that he of all people could act against his character (Alicent really didn't, she had been only her father's tool.)    

All in all, the ideas about Alicent and Daemon's dvelopment weren't bad, but I admit that the realization was. 

The biggest fault was that all was only preparation.        

[proserpina65]

On 8/18/2024 at 5:14 AM, Roseanna said:

Alicent and Rhaenyra's two discussion weren't only different, they were actually opposite.

It was just as badly written and pointless, though.  Both scenes were ridiculous because I refuse to believe either woman would be so freaking clueless as to believe there was any way they could stop war, and a really terrible one, from happening.

I didn't buy the conclusion of Daemon's Harrenhal arc at all.  It did not fit his character one freaking bit, whereas his deciding he should be king all on his own absolutely did.

Cole's scene, on the other hand, was both well-written and extremely well-acted.

 

[proserpina65]

Have to admit, the thing I was most fascinated by in season 2 was Aemond's ability to go from sitting cross-legged on the bed to standing without assistance.  Oh, to be that young and flexible!

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

It was just as badly written and pointless, though.  Both scenes were ridiculous because I refuse to believe either woman would be so freaking clueless as to believe there was any way they could stop war, and a really terrible one, from happening.

Putting aside all the logistical obstacles that would make the heart-to-hearts a near impossibility and the risks that would have made them a poor choice, I could see both women believing that they could convince the other of their cause.

Rhae could rely on her past friendship with Ali and her self-proclaimed religious nature to think that Ali would consider making a move to avoid the deaths of tens of thousands. Yes, I think Rhae should have realized it was a longshot that a) Ali would listen to her and b) have the juice to do anything. But I think it would be reasonable for Rhae to think it worth the gamble. 

And it might be results-oriented, but that gamble seems to have borne at least some fruit in the second heart-to-heart. (Of course, I'm still hoping this is all a Green doublecross, but I'm taking it at face value)

Ali has presented a plausible way that would seemingly minimize the war that is already upon them: wait till Aemond is out of King's Landing, then persuade Aegon to bend the knee, then let Rhae swoop in and control King's Landing with minimal bloodshed, even though it would mean sacrificing Aegon. Nothing about that seems too good to be true at this point. Ali does love Helaena, and it seems reasonable that she would try to work a deal that the two of them live a normal life far away from Westeros. Trying to convince Aegon to relinquish the crown might have been difficult before, but now that he's a desperate, depressed shell of a man, and now that it would be a big middle finger to Aemond seems doable. Aemond and Vhagar are still formidable. But without the institutional backing of the crown, with few allies, and at a 7-1 dragon disadvantage, it seems like it would be a tough row to hoe.

Of course, something at the beginning of next season will probably tip the scales so that Teams Black and Green are on more even footing.

[Enigma X]

This is probably a very unimportant and nit-picky complaint, but I hate the title of this episode. It's not as clever as "The Queen Who Never Was."

[paigow]

14 hours ago, Enigma X said:

This is probably a very unimportant and nit-picky complaint, but I hate the title of this episode.

An adjective is missing...  smartest / dumbest

[proserpina65]

18 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Putting aside all the logistical obstacles that would make the heart-to-hearts a near impossibility and the risks that would have made them a poor choice, I could see both women believing that they could convince the other of their cause.

See, I don't think this fits either character unless they're both stupid.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

See, I don't think this fits either character unless they're both stupid.

 House Of The Sansa was a rejected title...