S02.E06: Smallfolk

[paigow]

On 7/23/2024 at 10:48 AM, Stardancer Supreme said:

I see that the dragons need to ride with their new riders to see if they are worthy.

 

[ZaldamoWilder]

 

On 7/22/2024 at 2:08 AM, DigitalCount said:

Dogwatch 2024 continues, lol. I now believe that the dog will survive, because it would be too cruel to keep showing him and then kill him off. Did we get a name for the dog?

Are we voting?  Ya'll slippin.  How is it not Woofsteros?

On 7/22/2024 at 4:09 AM, Roseanna said:

You make good points. However, Aemond thinks only short-time tactics, not long-term strategy.

And he is arrongant, too self-confident and ruled by his hate. It's unwise for a ruler not to listen to advice but believe that he can make good decisions all alone, not to speak of dividing your own supporters and making a new enemy who can strike on your back. 

It's like sometimes ya'll send a shiddyness distress baseball cap soaring into the air and I can see it all the way from here.  Um..I gotta 3 o' clock zoom with the Sisters and Daughters of the American Veepocracy.  You mind if I Milania this?

On 7/22/2024 at 8:12 AM, proserpina65 said:

The Lannisters are just so extra.  I mean, taking caged lions to a battle?  Who else would even think of something like that?

The Targaryans.  Except, there'd definitely be a fight over who has better hair.

On 7/22/2024 at 8:51 AM, aghst said:

So Addam and Allyn both know that Corlys is their father but Corlys isn't or at least hasn't explicitly owned up to it?

Corlys is trying to make it up to Allyn at least and Addam wants them to benefit from Corlys feeling guilty to give them a lavish lifestyle?

Proof positive that baby's fathers ain't been shit since Jesus was a boy.

On 7/22/2024 at 9:04 AM, paigow said:

Vermithor: What the fuck is that?

Seasmoke: I heard somebody call it a lion

Vermithor: Tastes like chicken

eta: have been imagining a few accents...

Dragons could be:

• Ben Affleck & Jeremy Renner in The Town
• Paulie & Christopher in The Sopranos
•  
• Anybody in Peaky Blinders

::detective Columbo voice:: may I?

• DeNiro in Analyze This
• Giovanni Ribisi in anything
• Jerry Stiller as Arthur Spooner

On 7/22/2024 at 11:38 AM, tennisgurl said:

You have to love the Lannisters, rolling up with their own lions just for a flex. Aemond is making choices that make sense in the short term, but he is making a mess for a long term if he keeps pissing off all of his allies. He's good with a dragon but his people skills are awful, he doesn't care about anyone and what's worse is that he cant even pretend to. He isn't wrong to not trust Larys or to want Otto back as hand, but he shouldn't have deliberately pissed Larys off like that, having him working against you is the last thing a busy regent needs. He also needs to take the small folk into account, at least Aegon could put on a show of having their best interest at heart (which was at least partially genuine in his own weird way) but Aemond just ignores them. 

Rhaenyra starting her PR campaign against the Greens is a good idea, giving the smallfolk food and support is a great way to make herself look like their true monarch, especially when their thinking nostalgically about King Viserys. If she gets the common folk thinking of Rhenyra as his true heir and not the Greens, she has created a huge new problem for them right at their front door. 

Good to know that, even as their relationship isn't going great, Rhaenyra and Daemon still have a lot in common, like taste in women. Rhaenyra really needs to work on her communication with the people on her side, she's getting so sensitive about people taking her seriously as a ruler that she is getting paranoid. Jace was perfectly justified in asking about Daemon, he wasn't questioning her abilities. Of all people, Jace is one of the people who is always going to be on her side.  

Those baby dragons are adorable! I want to play with them! With a dragon flying around the Vale, Rhaena might be getting her time to shine. 

Poor Ser Steffon, he seemed like a decent guy so of course he was roasted. Seasmoke is looking for a new human with a bit more salt...

The hits keep coming for Alicent, she's caught in a riot, her own son kicks her off the council, and the one son who's apparently a winner is the one she didn't raise. Gwayne tried to be nice about it, but that has to hurt. 

The best thing about Daemon's trip is getting to see Paddy Considine as Viserys again.

Completely unnecessary.  But sometimes the kids won't turn off the lights, the windows are opened while the a/c is on, your ole man is cuttin up and nobody wants to take a bitch seriously.  You gotta put the smack down, I get it.  She needs a dub right now.   It helps that Mysaria is in her corner but personally I think they're trauma bonding and will end up just being good friends.   

On 7/22/2024 at 2:26 PM, proserpina65 said:

No way are they having feasts right now; that implies an opulence and extravagance of which we've seen nothing since the blockade began.  Eating much, much better than those outside the Red Keep, sure, but they're not holding actual feasts, never mind having hookers sent up from Flea Bottom.  Maybe if Aegon were still in charge, but even that is an extreme stretch.  With Aemond in charge, no way.

Exactly.  She's relied on people's oaths to her father more than 20 years ago and done nothing to maintain those connections, let alone build new ones.

 

Ok, you guys are baiting me at this point.

On 7/22/2024 at 3:41 PM, tennisgurl said:

My vote for the Iron Throne right now is that cute little dog we keep seeing around. He's loyal, he's a survivor, he's clearly a good boy, there has to be a reason we've seen so much of him! King Puppy, First of His Name! 

Rescinding my vote.  This. this should be pupperoo's name.  So cute lol!

On 7/23/2024 at 9:09 AM, pasdetrois said:

And as a villain in the fantastic series Slough House.

It's a bit distracting that Alicent still looks like she's in her 20s, even after birthing all those babies.

I've been wondering why it's so hard for me to keep track of the relationships.  Yeah it's because Aemon and his mom are both 29.

[Oscirus]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It still seems to me that holding back from deploying Vhaegar might have made sense when they were actively trying to avoid dragon combat and when the fight might have been Vhaegar and Sunfyre versus the five dragons Team Black had at their disposal originally.

It probably still would have been fairly easy to through hit-and-run tactics to burn a few ships and then retreat before the Team Black dragons could outnumber them. Rinse and repeat until you have either shattered the blockade or shattered the will of the sailors to maintain it and it can be mopped up with relative ease.

But with Meleys down and Caraxes in the Riverlands, with Syrax being a dragon of last resort since it would involve putting Rhae herself at risk, it seems like now would be a pretty good time to take on the remaining Team Black dragons. Vermax and Moondancer would get got by Vhaegar fairly easily, methinks, whether alone or in tandem.

 

I think you're right that it would be a great time to attack. However, there is one reason I can see why they wouldn't. Without knowing how far along Damon is on his Riverland project, it could cause problems down the line, leaving King's Landing wide open. 

[paigow]

Is there going to be a dragon flying training montage? Bastard son gets discouraged because he kinda sucks, but Vhagar is approaching the blockade... 

Seasmoke: Time to go!

Bastard: You mean try to save my brother and father?

Seasmoke: Go! or Go not! There is no try

[Lady S.]

On 7/21/2024 at 9:18 PM, SeanC said:

Alicent's reaction to Dragonstone's hottest new 'ship.

This is an actor-endorsed reading, btw.

Here's an interview where the actors discuss the Rhaenyra/Mysaria makeout:

Quote

“There’s nothing Machiavellian in it, as far as I’m concerned,” Mizuno said in an interview on Friday. “It’s a really beautiful, tender kiss, and it would be impossible not to feel something as Mysaria in that moment. I don’t think she has had that kind of kiss — maybe ever. And I think sex and sexuality is very complicated for her, given her history as a young woman with her father, and then going into her professional work life. So to have that such a tender, loving and passionate moment would have woken something up.”

Mizuno spoke about how the two actors conceived of their characters’ feelings before filming the scene. “When we discussed it, we talked about when you realize you have a crush on someone in hindsight, and you’re like, ‘Oh yeah, of course. I’ve fancied that person for six months, and I didn’t realize,'” she said. “But then once you realize it, it’s then a full-blown teenage crush. So maybe there’s some of that going on. But there’s also a civil war breaking out, so what are the priorities going to be?”

...

Have you always seen Rhaenyra as a queer character, or was this the first experience for her?

(D'Arcy): It’s hard, because I don’t think the word “queer” is a word that is in any way within Rhaenyra’s lexicon. There are so few images or stories within that world that she has access to that allow one to identify in that way. What I do think is that she is really sexual. Maybe that’s one of the real joys of playing her, is that I think she’s a super-embodied character, who knows when her body is sort of saying something. And that goes for many different contexts. I don’t think she is frightened by her body’s instruction. And certainly, I think there was great intimacy within her early relationship with Alicent.

How do you see this kiss affecting Rhaenyra’s tumultuous relationship with Daemon?

(D'Arcy): I don’t expect that she will have any intention of telling him. But I imagine that she feels quite proud, and feels quite emboldened. I imagine she quite likes the idea of him finding out. There’s such a power struggle in their relationship, that hooking up with his ex, I can only think, would feel like a useful point on the board.

Emma D'Arcy also mentions frustration at not getting to have more scenes with Matt Smith in s2 and missing working with him. (I'm not measuring minutes of screentime, but I don't think he's really on any less than s1, he's just not with s1 characters except as hallucinations. Whatever your feelings, I think it's weird to look at Matt Smith's performance and think he's bored to pieces. If I'm the only one who likes haunted Harrenhal hijinks and bisexual Rhaenyra confirmation/implied Rhaenyra confirmation, that's fine, just makes it feel like they're writing parts of the show just for me.)

Edited July 24 by Lady S.

[AntFTW]

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

It still seems to me that holding back from deploying Vhaegar might have made sense when they were actively trying to avoid dragon combat and when the fight might have been Vhaegar and Sunfyre versus the five dragons Team Black had at their disposal originally.

It probably still would have been fairly easy to through hit-and-run tactics to burn a few ships and then retreat before the Team Black dragons could outnumber them. Rinse and repeat until you have either shattered the blockade or shattered the will of the sailors to maintain it and it can be mopped up with relative ease.

They would have to get timely intelligence for that to work. Every player on the board seems to be working with the bare minimum of intel.

They don't seem to be getting any intel on whether the Gullet is being patrolled by someone on dragonback and how often those patrols occur. Before, it was Rhaenys patrolling the Gullet with Meleys. Now, it's the unknown. Did the Greens ever know that Rhaenys was patrolling the Gullet?

They don't seem to know the status of other dragons. Rhaenyra is experimenting to see if she can make use of the unclaimed dragons. It seems like Allyn is bonding with Seasmoke. That's valuable intel that the Greens don't know. They don't know which dragons are in play, and how they're being utilized.

Lastly, Aemond is only one person and he can't be everywhere all at once. If he's constantly attacking the blockade in the Gullet, he's not the Riverlands where they want him since they know they'll be walking straight into Daemon and his dragon. When Aemond's away in the Riverlands providing cover for his men, that's a good time to reestablish the blockage in the Gullet. Aemond seems to be the only dragonrider they have for combat.

7 hours ago, Oscirus said:

After doing way too much research on why Aemond doesn't just use Vhagar to dracarys the blockade, I learned that in order to do that, he'd have to go to the gullet, which is right by Dragonstone.  With that new knowledge gained, I'll pretty much say that using the Triarchy was Aemond's only play, especially since the Greyjoys aren't answering their calls, and offering up Alicent probably wouldn't get them to do that even if they went that route. 

Apparently, Aegon going down was a good thing for the Greens, as they can now get shit done.

Now that you've mentioned this, one thing that has surprised me is that they have rules of engagement that are actually being followed (maybe with the one exception of Aemond killing Luke).

Edited July 24 by AntFTW

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, AntFTW said:

They would have to get timely intelligence for that to work. Every player on the board seems to be working with the bare minimum of intel.

They don't seem to be getting any intel on whether the Gullet is being patrolled by someone on dragonback and how often those patrols occur. Before, it was Rhaenys patrolling the Gullet with Meleys. Now, it's the unknown. Did the Greens ever know that Rhaenys was patrolling the Gullet?

They don't seem to know the status of other dragons. Rhaenyra is experimenting to see if she can make use of the unclaimed dragons. It seems like Allyn is bonding with Seasmoke. That's valuable intel that the Greens don't know. They don't know which dragons are in play, and how they're being utilized.

Lastly, Aemond is only one person and he can't be everywhere all at once. If he's constantly attacking the blockade in the Gullet, he's not the Riverlands where they want him since they know they'll be walking straight into Daemon and his dragon. When Aemond's away in the Riverlands providing cover for his men, that's a good time to reestablish the blockage in the Gullet. Aemond seems to be the only dragonrider they have for combat.

Now that you've mentioned this, one thing that has surprised me is that they have rules of engagement that are actually being followed (maybe with the one exception of Aemond killing Luke).

Obviously, they do not have a real-time level of intel or the same level that we the viewing audience do.

But at this point of the narrative, the Greens know that Daemon has claimed Harrenhal and is there trying to get the Riverlands to bend the knee to Rhae. IIRC, the Lannisters were supposed to be moving against them, and then were like f--- that until we have our own dragon to take the field. 

The Greens obviously know that Meleys is dead because they paraded her head in the streets. 

The Greens may not know where specifically Rhae is but they know or should suspect that she's operating under Last-Resort mode, so she is unlikely to herself take the field.

So as far as they know, they only have Vermax and Moondancer who might team up to step Vhagar from roasting the blockade. I would say if you're Aemond, those are odds you should like. And we're not asking Aemond to be everywhere at once. We're asking him to take out the blockade, which is KL's biggest problem and which is something he would likely be able to do singlehandedly without much risk. Hell, you could probably get Helaena and Dreamfyre to do the actual roasting of the ships while Vhagar protects them should other dragons appear.

Edited July 24 by Chicago Redshirt

[AntFTW]

47 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

So as far as they know, they only have Vermax and Moondancer who might team up to step Vhagar from roasting the blockade. I would say if you're Aemond, those are odds you should like.

I disagree. I think that's too risky even with Aemond cockiness, even though Moondancer and Vermax are smaller dragons. Only one dragon is needed to distract Vhagar long enough to dracarys Aemond, much like Aemond nearly did to Rhaenys while Meleys was tied up with Sunfyre.

47 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

We're asking him to take out the blockade, which is KL's biggest problem and which is something he would likely be able to do singlehandedly without much risk. Hell, you could probably get Helaena and Dreamfyre to do the actual roasting of the ships while Vhagar protects them should other dragons appear.

My thinking is that they're not dedicating 100% of their ships and 100% of their men toward the blockade. I'm guessing but that's where my mind is. In the hit-and-run scenario, that means Aemond has to stay ready in KL because the moment Aemond goes to the Riverlands, I would think they could reestablish the blockade when he's gone.

Edited July 25 by AntFTW

[Lady S.]

2 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Hell, you could probably get Helaena and Dreamfyre to do the actual roasting of the ships while Vhagar protects them should other dragons appear.

I really don't think that would be a possibility even if she wasn't still recovering from hearing the decapitation of her son. Poor girl just wants to watch her pet bugs. Btw, the best interpretation I've seen of her cricket that stopped singing is connecting it to Gwayne saying Daeron is adept with a lute as well as swords. So youngest bro is a musician but he's gonna have to drop the lute and cease singing to go lose his innocence in the dragon war.

I'm just here for the fucked-up family dynamics and cute doomed dragons, not going to try to justify or explain battle tactics and logistics. I feel like the years-long war (with two dragons) in the Stepstones in s1 show that's not a top concern for the writers either, including GRRM in the source matierial.

Rhaenyra's even shorter on bodyguards than draonriders, with ferst Ser Erryk now Ser Steffon dead, she's down to only one white cloak left. RIP poor Steffon, his dad got beheaded by Criston in 2.04, then when he thought he had the chance to claim a dragon and avenge his father, Seasmoke was just trolling him.

Lastly, want to note they finally updated the tapestry intro with the end of ep 2.04, while including the baby corpse/hanged ratcatchers, and (I think a different angle of) Vhagar chomping Luke/Arrax. And the vision of Viserys on the throne with his kingly Valyrian steel heirloom sword made it clear that's the same sword Aemond is now carrying. All that he's missing now is a crown.

Edited July 25 by Lady S.

[Stardancer Supreme]

On 7/22/2024 at 8:51 AM, aghst said:

Seasmoke has his own agenda it seems?

Like they're going to try to hook me up with fake Targs so I better find me one.

So Addam and Allyn both know that Corlys is their father but Corlys isn't or at least hasn't explicitly owned up to it?

Corlys is trying to make it up to Allyn at least and Addam wants them to benefit from Corlys feeling guilty to give them a lavish lifestyle?

Being that Westeros is as patriarchal as it is, it would be expected that most noble house lords would have bastards in their kingdoms.  Out of fairness to Rhaenys, Alyn and Addam seem to be older than Laena and Laenor would be had they lived, so possibly Corlys hooked up with their mother before he married Rhaenys. I also wonder what happened to Aegon's bastards he had in the streets of the Red Keep?

[paigow]

9 minutes ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Corlys hooked up with their mother... 

who was probably from Tortuga or similar pirate haven...

[paigow]

Sexy bald bastard wastes a lot of time shaving his head... solution is: 

[baldryanr]

7 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Out of fairness to Rhaenys, Alyn and Addam seem to be older than Laena and Laenor would be had they lived, so possibly Corlys hooked up with their mother before he married Rhaenys. I also wonder what happened to Aegon's bastards he had in the streets of the Red Keep?

Corlys's guilty reaction when he talked to Rhaenys strongly imply this happened while they were married.

10 hours ago, Lady S. said:

Rhaenyra's even shorter on bodyguards than draonriders, with ferst Ser Erryk now Ser Steffon dead, she's down to only one white cloak left.

The Greens aren't doing much better.  Of course, the three imbeciles Aegon promoted were the ones swallowed up by the mob, so maybe they can find some competent replacements.  At least the main guy protecting Alicent seemed to know what he was doing.

[Stardancer Supreme]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

Corlys's guilty reaction when he talked to Rhaenys strongly imply this happened while they were married.

We have to stop putting modern sensibilities on things that happened way back in the past. There is no "cheating" in these type of relationships. Corlys' reaction may be about Rhaenys knowing about his bastards, as the noble lords are supposed to keep bastards on the down low unless they didn't care about their wives knowing about them. Corlys cared about how Rhaenys thought about him, so he would be a rare exception for feeling guilty at all.

[Affogato]

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

We have to stop putting modern sensibilities on things that happened way back in the past. There is no "cheating" in these type of relationships. Corlys' reaction may be about Rhaenys knowing about his bastards, as the noble lords are supposed to keep bastards on the down low unless they didn't care about their wives knowing about them. Corlys cared about how Rhaenys thought about him, so he would be a rare exception for feeling guilty at all.

Actually no. Caitlin was absolutely not bothered by Ned having bastards. She went into the marriage during a time of war and expected he would have bedmates. She expected a good man would provide for his bastards and see to their education and seeing they would have a good future. 
 

Acknowledging them as his bastards wasn’t the issue.  She was bothered by having Jon raised with her legitimate children as an equal. 
 

Rhaenys may have been thinking of her husbands sons with fondness, but also wondering if Corlys would want to make them legitimate and make them heirs. 

Edited July 25 by Affogato

[Roseanna]

10 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

Being that Westeros is as patriarchal as it is, it would be expected that most noble house lords would have bastards in their kingdoms.  Out of fairness to Rhaenys, Alyn and Addam seem to be older than Laena and Laenor would be had they lived, so possibly Corlys hooked up with their mother before he married Rhaenys. I also wonder what happened to Aegon's bastards he had in the streets of the Red Keep?

 

2 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Corlys's guilty reaction when he talked to Rhaenys strongly imply this happened while they were married.

 

1 hour ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

We have to stop putting modern sensibilities on things that happened way back in the past. There is no "cheating" in these type of relationships. Corlys' reaction may be about Rhaenys knowing about his bastards, as the noble lords are supposed to keep bastards on the down low unless they didn't care about their wives knowing about them. Corlys cared about how Rhaenys thought about him, so he would be a rare exception for feeling guilty at all.

Maybe somebody wil tell if the morality in Vesteros demanded for a high-born man to be faithful to his wife, even in a marriage of concenience.  

In real history sleeping with a woman of lower class wasn't cheating for a high-born man, especially if it happened faraway from home, f.ex. during war. A man was supposed to treat his wife *officially* in honor, not to fiver her place to a mistress. (BTV, that was the offence of  Edward II, not that had a male lover).   

However, a good man took care of his bastards of his longtime mistresses.

Gorlys' behavior isn't decent. Aegon's bastards are probably products of one-nights stands.         

[Oscirus]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

 

 

Maybe somebody wil tell if the morality in Vesteros demanded for a high-born man to be faithful to his wife, even in a marriage of concenience.  

In real history sleeping with a woman of lower class wasn't cheating for a high-born man, especially if it happened faraway from home, f.ex. during war. A man was supposed to treat his wife *officially* in honor, not to fiver her place to a mistress. (BTV, that was the offence of  Edward II, not that had a male lover).   

However, a good man took care of his bastards of his longtime mistresses.

Gorlys' behavior isn't decent. Aegon's bastards are probably products of one-nights stands.         

 

That's assuming Corlys had a long-time mistress.

3 hours ago, Stardancer Supreme said:

We have to stop putting modern sensibilities on things that happened way back in the past. There is no "cheating" in these type of relationships. Corlys' reaction may be about Rhaenys knowing about his bastards, as the noble lords are supposed to keep bastards on the down low unless they didn't care about their wives knowing about them. Corlys cared about how Rhaenys thought about him, so he would be a rare exception for feeling guilty at all.

 

 It's hard to do so when the writers intentionally try to sneak their modern sensibilities into the story. I'd be shocked if they weren't trying to imply that he had them while married to Rhaenys. Probably has more out there, but those are the two that wanted to be around him. If I am not mistaken, on the show he basically ignored her for seven years, doubt he was celibate during that timeframe

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Affogato said:

Actually no. Caitlin was absolutely not bothered by Ned having bastards. She went into the marriage during a time of war and expected he would have bedmates. She expected a good man would provide for his bastards and see to their education and seeing they would have a good future. 
 

Acknowledging them as his bastards wasn’t the issue.  She was bothered by having Jon raised with her legitimate children as an equal. 

I think Catelyn was bothered by Ned acknowledging his "bastard." I think she was bothered by Ned's "adultery" and that she had to see the product of his adultery everyday.

When Catelyn said "17 years ago you rode off with Robert Baratheon. You came back a year later with another woman's son", that sounds like she has negative feelings toward Ned's adultery. I interpreted that as "I don't want you coming home with another woman's baby."

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, Oscirus said:

That's assuming Corlys had a long-time mistress.

I supposed the young men were brothers - are thet not?

[baldryanr]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Maybe somebody wil tell if the morality in Vesteros demanded for a high-born man to be faithful to his wife, even in a marriage of concenience.  

Yes?  When Melisandre wanted to sleep with Stannis to make a shadow baby he said he made a vow.  So there is some theoretical expectation of fidelity.

Do most people care?  Maybe not, but anyone claiming to be a good man who actually cares about his wife would.  Despite the rough patches, Corlys and Rhaenys genuinely loved each other, so of course he'd feel at least some guilt about cheating on her.  Sleeping with women before they got married, though?  What's the big deal, all the nobles who aren't sticks in the mud like Ned and Stannis did it.

[Affogato]

27 minutes ago, AntFTW said:

I think Catelyn was bothered by Ned acknowledging his "bastard." I think she was bothered by Ned's "adultery" and that she had to see the product of his adultery everyday.

When Catelyn said "17 years ago you rode off with Robert Baratheon. You came back a year later with another woman's son", that sounds like she has negative feelings toward Ned's adultery. I interpreted that as "I don't want you coming home with another woman's baby."

Granted may have pulled in things I know that were explicitly stated in the books but which seemed to be basic world building items. I actually am hazy how much of that made its way into the tv show at this point. I thought it was obvious in the show that it was the position Jon was given with the trueborn children. Ned should have stretched his oath and told Caitlin. I would have to watch it again to see. 
 

Your quote kind if makes my point. It is bringing the child to Winterfell she is objecting to. 

[AntFTW]

2 minutes ago, Affogato said:

Granted may have pulled in things I know that were explicitly stated in the books but which seemed to be basic world building items. I actually am hazy how much of that made its way into the tv show at this point. I thought it was obvious in the show that it was the position Jon was given with the trueborn children. Ned should have stretched his oath and told Caitlin. I would have to watch it again to see. 
 

Your quote kind if makes my point. It is bringing the child to Winterfell she is objecting to. 

...and acknowledging the child as his bastard, which goes against your point.

A child that isn't Ned's bastard means nothing to her.

[paigow]

Corlys is the Sea Snake FFS! How could every port Not include a booty call? 

[paigow]

Gendry is the definitive Lucky Bastard... Ned saved him from Cersei, Arya saved him by lying to bounty hunters, Davos saved him from Stannis / Melisandre, Arya saved him [and others] from the Night King... The Hull brothers have to be content with their sexiness 

[proserpina65]

On 7/23/2024 at 4:24 PM, Lady S. said:

I'm trying to imagine Aemond actually dancing and partying and just cannot. That was his ex-paidMummy Experience, Madam Sylvi, lying about him, btw. I think she's likely acting against him because he ignored her plea to keep smallfolk like her in mind more than his dismissal of her after Aegon walked in on them. He was probably just another client to her, one with immense royal power, while the White Worm could well be an old friend from Mysaria's own brothel days.

Yeah, that picture just does not compute.

I imagine Sylvi would've participated in the "spread lies to the smallfolk" plot anyway, because as you say, Aemond was just another person paying for her services.  It probably didn't help that he treated her cavalierly in front of Aegon and his flunkies, but I don't really know what else could've done in that situation and still save face.

On 7/23/2024 at 7:04 PM, Johnny Dollar said:

Why can Corlys’ son ride a dragon? Are Velaryons dragon riders? Why couldn’t Corlys ride a dragon?

The Velaryons aren't dragon riders.  Laenor and Laena both could because their mother was a Targaryen.  But there may be some intermarrying between Targaryens and Velaryons in the past, though, giving Corlys some Targaryen blood.

On 7/23/2024 at 7:20 PM, Is Everyone Gone said:

Idk. I think there was a huge change with the time jump and the switch from Emily Carey to Olivia Cooke. Carey played Alicent as somewhat warm and kind. Cooke took the character in another direction and emphasized her bitterness, coldness and hypocrisy. Both are great actresses but when I see Alicent onscreen I don't see a particularly kind person.

I think years of suffering Viserys as a husband crushed a lot of the kindness out of her.

On 7/23/2024 at 7:44 PM, AntFTW said:

I've always thought that those that are descendants of Old Valyria can ride dragons, which are the Targaryens and the Velaryons.

Not all Valyrians were dragonlords.  The Velaryons weren't, nor were the Celtigars, the other Valyrian family who left before the Doom.  (The current Lord Celtigar is on Rhaenyra's council.)

 

[proserpina65]

On 7/24/2024 at 2:24 PM, ZaldamoWilder said:

Yeah it's because Aemon and his mom are both 29.

If you're talking about the actors, Ewan Mitchell (Aemond) is 27, Tom Glynn Carney (Aegon) is 29 and Olivia Cooke (Alicent) is 30.  Could be worse.  The Actress who played Hamlet's mother in the Laurence Olivier version of Hamlet was YOUNGER than Olivier.

 

[paigow]

4 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

 Ewan Mitchell (Aemond) is 27, Tom Glynn Carney (Aegon) is 29 and Olivia Cooke (Alicent) is 30. 

Parent: Implausible

• Angelina Jolie & Colin Farrell in Alexander

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

I think years of suffering Viserys as a husband crushed a lot of the kindness out of her.

I don't think being Viserys' wife can be called suffering. In an arranged marriage he was a good husband. Sex wasn't good and she had also otherwise to conform his needs but that was common under the circumstances.  

It was rather that the struggle against Rhaenyra and the constant worry about her sons' future eat her from inside. Alicent' character wasn't suited to the power play, especially as she had to find reason to convince her conscience. 

Instead, Rhaenyra took what she wanted and lived as she liked and never had any pangs of conscience about it or even a worry about consequences to herself or others. Because of her position and her father's love and protection she felt entitled to have her cake and eat it.   

[Oscirus]

18 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I supposed the young men were brothers - are thet not?

 

They don't need the same mom to be brothers. I believe that the only woman that Corlys would be with for more than sex is Rhaenys.

Perhaps the fact that only targs can ride dragons is a lie passed on through the generations to make them appear godlike.  Seasmoke went ahead and got his own rider so they would leave him the hell alone

 

 

[proserpina65]

8 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I don't think being Viserys' wife can be called suffering. In an arranged marriage he was a good husband. Sex wasn't good and she had also otherwise to conform his needs but that was common under the circumstances.  

It was rather that the struggle against Rhaenyra and the constant worry about her sons' future eat her from inside. Alicent' character wasn't suited to the power play, especially as she had to find reason to convince her conscience. 

Instead, Rhaenyra took what she wanted and lived as she liked and never had any pangs of conscience about it or even a worry about consequences to herself or others. Because of her position and her father's love and protection she felt entitled to have her cake and eat it.   

Eh, I think being married to Viserys would be soul-crushing.

I don't, however, disagree with you about the effect of years of worrying about her sons.  It was not an unreasonable thing to think that once Viserys died and Rhaenyra became queen, Alicent's sons would be in danger because they would represent a focus for rebellion.

 

[Roseanna]

1 hour ago, proserpina65 said:

I don't, however, disagree with you about the effect of years of worrying about her sons.  It was not an unreasonable thing to think that once Viserys died and Rhaenyra became queen, Alicent's sons would be in danger because they would represent a focus for rebellion.

I used to think so, but now I have reconsired somewhat. 

While it's likely that despite oaths many lords wouldn't have accepted a female monarch, but they would have less chance for a succesful rebellion if Otto had been faithful to his king.

Or not. Laena's sons by Viserys would probably been a greater danger than Alicent's. 

  

 

[proserpina65]

1 minute ago, Roseanna said:

I used to think so, but now I have reconsired somewhat. 

While it's likely that despite oaths many lords wouldn't have accepted a female monarch, but they would have less chance for a succesful rebellion if Otto had been faithful to his king.

Or not. Laena's sons by Viserys would probably been a greater danger than Alicent's. 

  

 

ANY sons Viserys had would absolutely be a focus for rebellion by those lords who didn't want a woman on the throne, simply because they were legitimate male alternatives.  It's the king having living sons which is the problem, not who the mother was.

[baldryanr]

28 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

ANY sons Viserys had would absolutely be a focus for rebellion by those lords who didn't want a woman on the throne, simply because they were legitimate male alternatives.  It's the king having living sons which is the problem, not who the mother was.

True, but Laena's sons by Viserys would have been an even bigger threat.  The Velaryon fleet is a huge trump card, plus (if anyone cares) they could claim descent from both of Jaeherys's sons.

Alas, Viserys didn't listen to Harwin nor did he go the Daemon route and say no one can tell me what to do.

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

ANY sons Viserys had would absolutely be a focus for rebellion by those lords who didn't want a woman on the throne, simply because they were legitimate male alternatives.  It's the king having living sons which is the problem, not who the mother was.

 

14 hours ago, baldryanr said:

True, but Laena's sons by Viserys would have been an even bigger threat.  The Velaryon fleet is a huge trump card, plus (if anyone cares) they could claim descent from both of Jaeherys's sons.

Alas, Viserys didn't listen to Harwin nor did he go the Daemon route and say no one can tell me what to do.

I agree with you both. 

However, even if Viserys had no *legitimate* sons when he died, his brother Daemon would have been favored over Rhaenyra by most lords, despite their oaths.  

Daemon's hallycanation shows that he at least undestood that his own reckless and heartless behavior cost him Viserys' trust and ultimately the crown. 

However, Daemon acted according his character. Just as Otto did.

In addition there was happenings that nobody could have anticipated, like Laena's death in childbirth that had many consequences.

 

 

 

[SeanC]

On 7/27/2024 at 4:31 AM, Roseanna said:

However, even if Viserys had no *legitimate* sons when he died, his brother Daemon would have been favored over Rhaenyra by most lords, despite their oaths.  

In the abstract, a brother might be favoured over a daughter by many, but Daemon himself doesn't seem all that popular. If it had come down to Rhaenyra vs. Daemon, based on what we've seen, Rhaenyra would probably have been in good standing.

[Roseanna]

4 hours ago, SeanC said:

In the abstract, a brother might be favoured over a daughter by many, but Daemon himself doesn't seem all that popular. If it had come down to Rhaenyra vs. Daemon, based on what we've seen, Rhaenyra would probably have been in good standing.

Maybe, but Daemon was a good warrior and such a man usually gets followers.

One mustn't forget that even if Viserys had acted more wisely, he couldn't have anticipated deaths of Lyonel and Harwin Strong, Rhea Royce, Laena and Laenor.     

[Johnny Dollar]

It seems odd that Alyn shaves his head to hide his silvery locks, buy Adamm has dark hair but can ride a dragon.  Old Valerian genetics are wild.

Regarding using Vhagar to burn out the blockade, it was noted that the dragons need to rest and recharge between battles. Perhaps his fire fuel needed refilling.

Finally, spell check should be disabled on all  GRRM-themed boards. These name spellings are hard enough to type out once!

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Finally, spell check should be disabled on all  GRRM-themed boards.

Depends who wrote the dictionary... Have to override every time Vhagar gets changed to Vhalen

[MJ Frog]

On 7/23/2024 at 4:24 PM, Lady S. said:

She was surprised by the hug but did return the embrace and then they both breathed heavily into each other's necks, with Mysaria either kissing Rhaenyra's neck or just moaning into it even after Rhaenyra lifted her head.

I'll have to revisit the scene, but it felt to me, however subtly, that Mysaria was approaching it as if thinking: "Okay, so I guess we're doing this now". However, I admit my view may have been colored by the sense that this was not the appropriate moment for sexy time.

[proserpina65]

9 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

I'll have to revisit the scene, but it felt to me, however subtly, that Mysaria was approaching it as if thinking: "Okay, so I guess we're doing this now". However, I admit my view may have been colored by the sense that this was not the appropriate moment for sexy time.

That was my take on it as well, that Rhaenyra initiated the intimacy.  And I was rather turned off by the "My dad raped and tried to kill me.", "Wow that sucks, let's make out." feel of that scene.

[ZaldamoWilder]

On 7/25/2024 at 8:30 PM, proserpina65 said:

If you're talking about the actors, Ewan Mitchell (Aemond) is 27, Tom Glynn Carney (Aegon) is 29 and Olivia Cooke (Alicent) is 30.  Could be worse.  The Actress who played Hamlet's mother in the Laurence Olivier version of Hamlet was YOUNGER than Olivier.

 

Girl see?  27, 29 & 30 = everybody's 29.  😂                

[millennium]

This season is a colossal bore so far.   Daemon and his annoying, repetitive vision quest, just walking around Harrenhal half-dazed.  Rhaenyra pacing around Dragonstone, wringing her hands.   Alicent languishing at the Red Keep.   Nothing is happening!   And this episode, "Smallfolk."   I'll be honest, I don't give a ratcatcher's ass about the smallfolk.   I care even less about Corliss/Alyn/Addam.   I'm so like "oh no, not another damn shipyard scene!"  And Addam ... two minutes after he complains that Corliss is his father too but there's no benefit to it for him, he gets himself a dragon.   That was too abrupt.

Season I made me think this show would be something different than what I'm seeing with each new episode.   Even the slightest expectation like "maybe this episode Daemon will get off his ass and do something ..." leads to disappointment.

Didn't one of the showrunners bail after the first season?   I think it really shows.

Edited July 30 by millennium

[Roseanna]

15 minutes ago, millennium said:

This season is a colossal bore so far.   Daemon and his annoying, repetitive vision quest, just walking around Harrenhal half-dazed.  Rhaenyra pacing around Dragonstone, wringing her hands.   Nothing is happening!   And this episode, "Smallfolk."   I'll be honest, I don't give a ratcatcher's ass about the smallfolk.   I care even less about Corliss/Alyn/Addam.   I'm so like "oh no, not another damn shipyard scene!"  And Addam ... two minutes after we learn Corliss is his father too, he gets himself a dragon.   That was too abrupt.

Season I made me think this show would be something different than what I'm seeing with each new episode.   Even the slightest expectation like "maybe this episode Daemon will get off his ass and do something ..." leads to disappointment.

Didn't one of the showrunners bail after the first season?   I think it really shows.

Interesting to read your opinion as I think just the opposite.

I din't like S1 - I suppose it was mostly because I didn't watch The Game of the Thrones, so this alt-universe was utterlyt strange to me. In addition, I found the mixture of the patriarchy and modern values laughable. 

Now I am beginning to become somewhat interested. Although I still don't particularly *like* any of the main characters, I have begun to understand them at least a little.

[proserpina65]

7 hours ago, millennium said:

Season I made me think this show would be something different than what I'm seeing with each new episode. 

It's interesting because I found season 1 mostly boring until episode 6 when Alicent's kids became real characters, and from then on, it was fantastic.  I'm finding this season uneven for some of the reasons you mentioned (I could've done with a lot less of Daemon, Alicent and Corlys) but have mostly enjoyed it more than the first season.  I will admit that is primarily because of Aemond.

[millennium]

2 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

It's interesting because I found season 1 mostly boring until episode 6 when Alicent's kids became real characters, and from then on, it was fantastic.  I'm finding this season uneven for some of the reasons you mentioned (I could've done with a lot less of Daemon, Alicent and Corlys) but have mostly enjoyed it more than the first season.  I will admit that is primarily because of Aemond.

I found Aegon interesting simply because he didn't want to be king, but once he got there he turned it into a frat boy fantasy to the frustration of everyone around him.   Also, I don't think he was mean at heart.  Selfish, but not cruel.  Now that's gone. 

Rhaenys was my favorite character but they killed her.   That leaves me with Alicent (Rhaenyra is just too gloomy) whom I really like despite her flaws.

[proserpina65]

2 minutes ago, millennium said:

Also, I don't think he was mean at heart.  Selfish, but not cruel.  Now that's gone. 

Even with the bullying of his brother and maid-raping?  I'd say he was pretty cruel from at least his teen years.

[paigow]

Aegon, Aemond and Daemon are sociopaths. Psychopaths are biologically incapable of feeling fear, empathy, etc...

These guys repress emotions so much that they appear psychotic... 

[millennium]

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Even with the bullying of his brother and maid-raping?  I'd say he was pretty cruel from at least his teen years.

I went away for a bit after I posted that and thought, "Uh oh, somebody's gonna call me out about the bullying."   And I forgot about the maid-raping.   So, okay.  

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, paigow said:

Aegon, Aemond and Daemon are sociopaths. Psychopaths are biologically incapable of feeling fear, empathy, etc...

These guys repress emotions so much that they appear psychotic... 

I don't think Aemond is a sociopath.  I think he's severely damaged by his childhood and is way past the point where he could be redeemed but I think he feels fear at the very least.  He just has trained himself not to show it.  We've also seen Aegon show fear but definitely not empathy.  Daemon, I'm not sure about.

[Oscirus]

7 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

I don't think Aemond is a sociopath.  I think he's severely damaged by his childhood and is way past the point where he could be redeemed but I think he feels fear at the very least.  He just has trained himself not to show it.  We've also seen Aegon show fear but definitely not empathy.  Daemon, I'm not sure about.

 

Damon showed fear when told he was going to die in harenhall and showed empathy when he helped his sick brother to his throne. So of the three, he's apparently the most sane.