Artistic Gymnastics

[Conotocarious]

I mean I definitely believe it. People are insane. The hate Jordan and Cecile are getting right now is unhinged. 

[baldryanr]

43 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Skinner posted a reel begging Simone to call off her fans. She claims she's gotten death threats. Sure Jan. 🙄

First time on the internet?  It's 100% believable that deranged Simone Biles fans would be sending death threats.  Same with deranged Taylor Swift fans, and anyone else who is popular enough to amass a large following.

[Salacious Kitty]

Nah, I just didn't 🤔(excuse, I can't delete it) think that anyone took it THAT seriously. Yes, what Skin inner said was problematic, but I guess I thought better of people. Criticize her? Go for it. But death threats? Excessive. 

But I guess you're right that every fanbase has it's share of whackadoos. 

Edited August 6 by Salacious Kitty

[surfgirl]

6 hours ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Skinner posted a reel begging Simone to call off her fans. She claims she's gotten death threats. Sure Jan. 🙄

This whole thing is very juvenile and quite frankly, Simone is old enough that she shouldn't be getting involved in this shit at all. The current team should have ignored this entirely and Simone's snide jab on that IG post is unbecoming to her and seems out of character, IMO.

We also felt terrible for the Romanian gymnast. TBH, we felt her routine was far better than Jordan's.

Edited August 7 by surfgirl

[Conotocarious]

Simone is an awesome person and she typically uses her immense power for good, but this was foreseeable and unfortunate. I just hate social media so much sometimes (most of the time?). I wonder if and how SImone will respond.

[Makai]

46 minutes ago, Salacious Kitty said:

Nah, I just didn't 🤔(excuse, I can't delete it) think that anyone took it THAT seriously. Yes, what Skin inner said was problematic, but I guess I thought better of people. Criticize her? Go for it. But death threats? Excessive. 

But I guess you're right that every fanbase has it's share of whackadoos. 

Death threats are never acceptable but I can’t say I have any sympathy for the woman who included monkey emojis in tweets about Gabby Douglas, body shamed a woman who was open about how her chronic illness changed her body and acted like Hezly was insanely difficult to pronounce. She has a history of using racist and sexist dog whistles but wants to play the victim when the awful people turn on her. 

Even the lazy criticism plays into all the assholes out there who persist in saying Simone is worthless and shouldn’t be allowed to compete at all after Tokyo. I feel pretty comfortable saying Simone deals with more horrific messages on social media as a prominent black woman than MyKayla is getting now. 

[Salacious Kitty]

Skinner publicly called out Simone. But Simone said that she was blocked. Who's gonna tell her to call off the dogs? 

[Chaser]

With the whole inquiry thing, I went back and rewatched the Beam final in London. I wonder if the process is the same. Aly’s coaches are running around filling out the paperwork. It states that an inquiry has been filed on the Jumbotron. Everyone is just waiting around for the results. Compared that to this time and Jordan isn’t even aware of the inquiry. If she isn’t aware, was Ana not aware? The other coaches? The audience? 

Edited August 7 by Chaser

[NUguy514]

Never mind, it's not worth it (directed at Skinner, not at anyone here).

Edited August 7 by NUguy514

[Makai]

42 minutes ago, Chaser said:

With the whole inquiry thing, I went back and rewatched the Beam final in London. I wonder if the process is the same. Aly’s coaches are running around filling out the paperwork. It states that an inquiry has been filed on the Jumbotron. Everyone is just waiting around for the results. Compared that to this time and Jordan isn’t even aware of the inquiry. If she isn’t aware, was Ana not aware? The other coaches? The audience? 

There were people at the event who have said the inquiries were posted on the board but they can’t officially file the inquiry until the score is posted. The gymnasts were already celebrating by that point. 

[Scout Finch]

I wouldn't think that the audience being too quiet would be more problematic than the audience clapping along in time with someone's floor routine music while you're on an apparatus. There must be a physical rhythm/timing necessary for any routine and I always worry that the crowd's synchronized clapping will throw that off, especially on the balance beam (where getting thrown off could be literal!).

I suppose it's an issue with events not running too much longer but I wish they could wait until each gymnast has finished their respective routines so you don't hear the crowd erupting in cheers for the US while you're still doing yours. I would like each of them to get at least some acknowledgment and applause from the audience.

Edited August 7 by Scout Finch

[Makai]

55 minutes ago, Scout Finch said:

I wouldn't think that the audience being too quiet would be more problematic than the audience clapping along in time with someone's floor routine music while you're on an apparatus. There must be a physical rhythm/timing necessary for any routine and I always worry that the crowd's synchronized clapping will throw that off, especially on the balance beam (where getting thrown off could be literal!).

I suppose it's an issue with events not running too much longer but I wish they could wait until each gymnast has finished their respective routines so you don't hear the crowd erupting in cheers for the US while you're still doing yours. I would like each of them to get at least some acknowledgment and applause from the audience.

I didn’t understand why it wouldn’t be a problem until I read Simone and Suni’s comments after. 

Quote

"You're trying to stay in your zone, and then people start cheering and then the shushing gets louder, so really, they should be shushed because they're louder," Biles said after the beam and floor finals. "It was really weird and awkward. And we've asked several times if we can have some music, or some background noise, so I'm not really sure what happened there. But, yeah, not our favorite. None of us liked it."

Quote

"Even watching the other finals, I was like, 'It's a little too quiet in here,'" said Lee, who placed sixth in her final event at these Games. "When I was up there, I was like, 'People can probably hear me breathing.'

"It adds to the stress, just because yes, you're the only one up there, but it just makes you feel like you're the only one up there. I was feeling the pressure."

The silence also made any small noises − Biles mentioned "Android ringtones going off" and "the photo flickers" − seem amplified.

"Each gymnast has their own way to interpret the atmosphere, and likes a different type of atmosphere," Brazil's Julia Soares said through a translator. "It's my first (Olympic) final, but for my experience, when the gymnasium is quiet, any noise can bother and can interfere."

 

Edited August 7 by Makai

[CrazyInAlabama]

After all of the complaints about the food service, I'm wondering if it was food poisoning hurting Jade and her dad? We'll probably never know.     

Edited August 7 by CrazyInAlabama

[Conotocarious]

10 hours ago, Makai said:

I didn’t understand why it wouldn’t be a problem until I read Simone and Suni’s comments after. 

 

I can fully see. Look, they both mentioned being thrown by it and it looks like Suarez did too. I know when I’m trying to sleep I cannot do so in dead quiet. EVERY noise is magnified and it’s weird. I always have my air cleaner going. So this doesn’t strike me as strange at all.

[emma675]

This is so cool. I hope Rebeca has a beautiful future in whatever she chooses to do. She's already done so much for her sport and inspiring children in Brazil. 

[satrunrose]

15 hours ago, Makai said:

I didn’t understand why it wouldn’t be a problem until I read Simone and Suni’s comments after. 

 

It's too bad. I'll bet anything that people started falling and the audience decided that they needed to be quiet to help them concentrate so they started shushing and that made everything worse.

[CeeBeeGee]

So apparently the Romanian federation is filing an appeal because the NBC footage shows that Sabrina's foot did not go out of bounds--her heel hovered over the out of bounds area but never actually touched it. And Romanians on social media are absolutely out for blood--Jordan's. I have mixed feelings about the appeal--frankly I think it sets a bad precedent. Wasn't it established at the 2004 Games with the men's gold medal debacle that you're supposed to file these things in real time, not a couple of days later? OTOH the Romanian coach did file an inquiry for Sabrina, which was rejected. OTOOH I thought you could only file appeals re: the D-score.

Sigh. I was so excited that the Romanians were back. We ended things on such a positive note with that bow to Rebeca--and now I'm reading comment after comment absolutely vilifying not just Jordan (as though she were to blame :/ ) but also Simone, for some reason. It just sucks.

[Conotocarious]

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

So apparently the Romanian federation is filing an appeal because the NBC footage shows that Sabrina's foot did not go out of bounds--her heel hovered over the out of bounds area but never actually touched it. And Romanians on social media are absolutely out for blood--Jordan's. I have mixed feelings about the appeal--frankly I think it sets a bad precedent. Wasn't it established at the 2004 Games with the men's gold medal debacle that you're supposed to file these things in real time, not a couple of days later? OTOH the Romanian coach did file an inquiry for Sabrina, which was rejected. OTOOH I thought you could only file appeals re: the D-score.

Sigh. I was so excited that the Romanians were back. We ended things on such a positive note with that bow to Rebeca--and now I'm reading comment after comment absolutely vilifying not just Jordan (as though she were to blame :/ ) but also Simone, for some reason. It just sucks.

I agree. If a Super Bowl is decided by a bad ref’s call, they don’t do a review and award a trophy to the other team. Errors happen in sports. It sucks but that’s the reality. 

The minute Nadia started tweeting this went way off the rails.

[WhitneyWhit]

The FIG is very clear on this that they can submit a line/time deduction review during the competition but it has to be done quickly, I think they have one minute to do it. I don’t know what kind of inquiry they submitted but if it was for the OOB and it was rejected then they’re SOL and if it was what they inquired about they’re still SOL because the time has passed. 

[Makai]

The Romanian federation and one European new site is saying that after pressure from Nadia, the FIG has agreed to re-analyze Sabrina’s floor routine and that there is a hearing tomorrow. However, no one else is reporting it so I wouldn’t be surprised if they are overstating things to add pressure. 

If it is true, it is going to open up a massive can of worms because every coopetition has multiple questionable OOB calls. 

Romanian officials are threatening to boycott the closing ceremonies, Nadia is using all her influence to get Sabrina a bronze, Sabrina has re-posted and liked some truly reprehensible stuff on social media and there doesn’t seem to be any sign it going to get better any time soon. 

From what I’ve seen, Ana has been so classy and mature in her handling of it all. 

In more positive news..

Boys are flocking to gymnastics classes, thanks to pommel horse guy

Edited August 8 by Makai

[Conotocarious]

Thanks a ton, Nadia. 
 

And also, go ahead and boycott the closing ceremonies. Knock yourselves out. 

[Daisy]

On 8/6/2024 at 12:56 PM, surfgirl said:

Re:Beam routines, I find all the 'artistic' bits really robotic and awkward. They always come across to me as just perfunctory move.ents that one is required to do and they usually don't add anything to the routines for me. I'd rather beam routines were mainly flips and twirls and such and just 86 the silly poses and hand flourishes. 

Also, I didn't feel this year's final floor routines were all that choreographed. There was a time when the gymnasts would coordinate to exciting music but I wasnt feeling it this year at all.

the thing is it used to look so natural. I mean i agree with you - that it just looks perfunctory in a okay here i am, i'm doing something artsy, now i tumble wheee!
 

Some girls though (in this era) do make it look very natural. there was the Italian girl I wanna say Manilla? all of her arm movements just flowed and it looked natural like everything had a purpose and it moved into and out of her routine and it was just a treat to watch. in Rio the girl who won on beam [she was Dutch if i recall rightly] her routine was also a treat to watch because  - again flowed.  

Shannon Miller's 96 beam routine popped up on my youtube, and i just watched it because it was just... butter and the beam was her roll. 

I honestly wouldn't remove it but imo they need to make it more seamless rather than "checking off boxes." 

my personal waterloo here is that compulsories should come back in this and in figure skating - you don't even need to air it (though i enjoyed watching it  LOL) but i feel that helps enhance free routines a bit more. but that'll never happen so. again. my waterloo lol

Edited August 8 by Daisy

[CeeBeeGee]

3 hours ago, Conotocarious said:

And also, go ahead and boycott the closing ceremonies. Knock yourselves out. 

Yep. Nobody's going to miss you. We've done just fine in the last twelve years without you.

[surfgirl]

4 hours ago, Daisy said:

my personal waterloo here is that compulsories should come back in this and in figure skating - you don't even need to air it (though i enjoyed watching it  LOL) but i feel that helps enhance free routines a bit more. but that'll never happen so. again. my waterloo lol

BRING BACK COMPULSORIES? I thought I was all alone in an island of one wrt that! I absolutely loved skating compulsories and agree they add the technical aspect in a way that is interesting. I'd forgotten that gymnastics even had that at one time. I mean, if you're going to be all around in something, you should be able to excel in the basics yes?

[Daisy]

18 hours ago, Conotocarious said:

I agree. If a Super Bowl is decided by a bad ref’s call, they don’t do a review and award a trophy to the other team. Errors happen in sports. It sucks but that’s the reality. 

 

ask any Toronto Maple Leafs fan - people still bring up Wayne Gretzky's missed call on Doug Gilmore but thems the breaks. I'm sorry that the Romanian girl got penalized for something she didn't do but obviously you didn't know this until after it was shown a few days later. it sucks.  you can even be mad, but be gracefully mad.  

[Chaser]

I can understand a politician puffing his chest up and making demands. They don’t know the sport or the rules. I have less understanding of Nadia and the Romanian Gymnast. They know it was on the Romanian coaches who dropped the ball and Cecile/Jordan didn’t do anything wrong. 

[Daisy]

49 minutes ago, surfgirl said:

BRING BACK COMPULSORIES? I thought I was all alone in an island of one wrt that! I absolutely loved skating compulsories and agree they add the technical aspect in a way that is interesting. I'd forgotten that gymnastics even had that at one time. I mean, if you're going to be all around in something, you should be able to excel in the basics yes?

COME JOIN ME ON MY ISLAND! I HAVE BABKA! (raspberry and apple cinnamon, fresh out of the oven with blueberry lemonade).

and yes. and that's something I feel a lot of girls tend to neglect and it shows in their routines. i remember that in figure skatings a big reason why some were super medal contenders wasn't because of the short (which was more athletic)  - but because of the compulsories. and then the free was go time and hope you were able to make the 4 minutes count for something. 

same with gymnastics. and you saw the technical shine through the other events.  the more FIG makes it all about tumbling and screw everything else is the more i just don't like gymnastics as a whole. I'll watch it but i don't have the same zest for it as i did in 92 through 08. 

[kittykat]

I feel like we're right back where we were in 2004, the whole reason the damn scoring system was changed in the first place in order to add more emphasis on start values and difficulty.  It is literally the same situation.  Yes it sucks that the gymnast in question will not have their appeal but it's not their opponent's fault.  Blame your delegation for not filing in time.

Why do these people think coaches and gymnasts watch the board like a hawk before scores are posted?  Because they're making sure no mistakes were made so they can file an inquiry in just in case because THOSE ARE THE RULES!

And no I am not arguing in favor of Jordan just because she's American.  If it were the other way around I'd say the same thing.  

24 minutes ago, Daisy said:

same with gymnastics. and you saw the technical shine through the other events.  the more FIG makes it all about tumbling and screw everything else is the more i just don't like gymnastics as a whole. I'll watch it but i don't have the same zest for it as i did in 92 through 08. 

I think there are some good strides being made in difficulty but overall I agree.  I miss the artistry, most of it these days look so forced.  I have the same qualms about figure skating and a certain banned delegation exploiting difficulty levels for sloppy performance but...another Olympics, another thread.

[Jaded]

This is starting to feel a bit like the 2002 Winter Olympics.

It's a good thing I can't do anything IRL about any of it.

[Daisy]

14 minutes ago, kittykat said:

I feel like we're right back where we were in 2004, the whole reason the damn scoring system was changed in the first place in order to add more emphasis on start values and difficulty.  It is literally the same situation.  Yes it sucks that the gymnast in question will not have their appeal but it's not their opponent's fault.  Blame your delegation for not filing in time.

 

pretty much. i honestly think  the easiest thing needs to be this. 

You have 
Execution
Difficulty [Tumbling]
Difficulty [Artistic]. 

have them weighted the same. if someone can do a Biles 1 in competition and it's sloppy. but someone can do a DaisyKittykat (and it's the best darn artistic move/combination series ever made). that should have same value. because what's the point of doing a Biles 1 on floor if it looks so janky  and you take a massive leap forward - but you can do a perfect DaisyKittykat.

back in my day grr grr grr (old woman shaking fist at clouds). if you fell off - that was it. hell if you took a massive step forward that was it. I still remember Shannon's sobs because she took that step out [DAMN YOU STEVE NUNNO!!]. and she knew her Olympic dreams were over. just like that. 

Now it's like you can touch the beam, can jump way out of bounds, and stuff and it feels you can still contend for a medal. why? because you are throwing all these massive tricks in the air and it doesn't matter if it's neat, you just did it. just doesn't jive for me. 

but i'm with you. I think i remember (it was in Beijing) - it also costs money to file an appeal. so maybe they weren't dead sure and they didn't have the money (it sounded like it was a costly amount and you had to pay cash, you couldn't say "Charge it to my RomEX"). so they didn't want to risk it. then they realised they SHOULD have. (but that's too bad so sad on you). 

Blaming Jordan is wrong. and I'm not American so i have no skin in this fight at all. (but i'm with you -  even if i was, i'd say the same thing if it were reversed) 

21 minutes ago, kittykat said:

I have the same qualms about figure skating and a certain banned delegation exploiting difficulty levels for sloppy performance but...another Olympics, another thread.

see you in  Milan & Cortina my friend. we can grouse about it then hahaha

Just now, Jaded said:

This is starting to feel a bit like the 2002 Winter Olympics.

ohhh. yeah. that was drama and a half

[Dr.OO7]

On 8/3/2024 at 8:27 PM, Conotocarious said:

And Kim Zmeskal’s floor routine was so cringey. I’ve never seen anyone with a more dead-eyed expression trying to mimic playing air guitar.

Her confidence was gone the moment she fell from the beam. It was heartbreaking watching her unable to rally herself.

[CeeBeeGee]

6 minutes ago, Dr.OO7 said:

Her confidence was gone the moment she fell from the beam. It was heartbreaking watching her unable to rally herself.

And knowing that the Karolyis were more than likely icing her out because of her fall--when it was their fault for overtraining her. She had a thigh fracture (I think).

[surfgirl]

8 hours ago, Daisy said:

see you in  Milan & Cortina my friend. we can grouse about it then hahaha

Hey, I'll be in the stands with you guys, you bring the babka, I'll bring hot chocolate and good coffee!

Re: the above comments about doing technically difficult moves but doing them not perfectly, I totally agree. I love Simone, and I'm thrilled she was able to come back and get a do over from Tokyo, which was indeed heartbreaking to witness at the time. That said, I notice that a lot of the commentary on her vaults and/or floor routines included things like, "She doesn't need to stick the landing here because her start score is so high that she can afford to land and take a step or even two!" That's bullshit. Either you can do the damn thing and stick the landing, which to my mind is thr litmus test for 'you did it the best and as intended', or you cannot. I am tired of the degree of difficulty outweighing/outscoring artistry, because to me, artistry is almost more important than technical in both gymnastics and skating. In fact, I'm gonna go all ancient sour grapes here and say for the millionth time, MICHELLE KWAN WAS FUCKING ROBBED! There is nobody who will ever convince me that Tara Lapinski was better than Michelle in that Olympics, nobody, never! But Tara did an extra flip or twirl or whatfuckingever, and she wins gold. Whereas Michelle's routines always brought tears to my eyes because she was just that great. Don't get me wrong, I find Tara a good commentator on skating, but she did not deserve that gold IMO.

*wipes spittle from mouth and steps off soapbox*

Edited August 9 by surfgirl

[Chaser]

Whispers…Tara deserved the Gold.

Ducks for cover. 

[kittykat]

6 hours ago, Daisy said:

have them weighted the same. if someone can do a Biles 1 in competition and it's sloppy. but someone can do a DaisyKittykat (and it's the best darn artistic move/combination series ever made). that should have same value. because what's the point of doing a Biles 1 on floor if it looks so janky  and you take a massive leap forward - but you can do a perfect DaisyKittykat.

For anyone who wants to know, a perfect DaisyKittyKat is a dismount where you land butt first on your couch without spilling your popcorn. Include a beverage for added start value.

Now for a serious reply, I do agree that one should be rewarded for difficulty but they need to change the risk/reward/penalty on it.  I used to get on the Chinese men years ago because I was frustrated by their sloppy form and multiple mistakes but then they would still post 16s because ...start values.  They have been way better this games, especially their rings and P Bars,

But it gets frustrating to see the artistry pushed aside because it's all about the tumbles.  There needs to be higher penalties on higher risk moves so that people have to weigh more on the option of playing it safe or going big instead of go big, make mistakes and still get a medal.

[WhitneyWhit]

In terms of difficulty outweighing execution, I’m gonna say something controversial that I usually keep to myself but Simone is lucky she competes in this era. There has been more than a few times over the years when some of her landings, particularly those huge steps on vault and some of her floor landings would have taken her out of contention for some of her titles under the 10.0 system. 

[Daisy]

24 minutes ago, WhitneyWhit said:

In terms of difficulty outweighing execution, I’m gonna say something controversial that I usually keep to myself but Simone is lucky she competes in this era. There has been more than a few times over the years when some of her landings, particularly those huge steps on vault and some of her floor landings would have taken her out of contention for some of her titles under the 10.0 system. 

and it's not even taking anything away from her either. like she's doing really hard crap which good for her for pushing the bar, we need those people. we always need more "Korbuts" (as she did it first!) but i totally agree with you. like @surfgirl said it. when someone [even Simone] takes a large jump, and the commentators are going crazy, and even in 2008, 2012, you could hear Al  [shut up Al!] Elfie & Tim go, oohh that landing though, ooh just a tiny hop on the landing.  that's the litmus test.  I know part of it now too is that FIG changed it so that you can't do a stag landing (i call it - your feet aren't together, but you still land firm without taking a step forward/backward to the to side), that basically protects your knees/ankles - so i think a lot of gymnasts just take the extra hop or whatever, and get docked for points for healthy joints. which i can't get mad at - but at the same time that should be penalized too. 

1 hour ago, kittykat said:

But it gets frustrating to see the artistry pushed aside because it's all about the tumbles.  There needs to be higher penalties on higher risk moves so that people have to weigh more on the option of playing it safe or going big instead of go big, make mistakes and still get a medal.

honestly, I think a lot of the ladies (and men for that matter) need to take a hard eye on rhythmic gymnastics. the connections and movement these girls do is breath taking. and i am just imagining some of those turns in combination with tumbling passes would be fire. 

[surfgirl]

This is a great convo we're having! I thought it was only me who thought this! 

PS: Mykayka Skinner can still suck a bag o dicks. Yeah, I said it.

Edited August 9 by surfgirl

[NUguy514]

2 hours ago, WhitneyWhit said:

In terms of difficulty outweighing execution, I’m gonna say something controversial that I usually keep to myself but Simone is lucky she competes in this era. There has been more than a few times over the years when some of her landings, particularly those huge steps on vault and some of her floor landings would have taken her out of contention for some of her titles under the 10.0 system. 

That's true for basically every top gymnast since the 10.0 scoring system was changed, though.  I don't find Simone to be unique in this regard because no one sticks all their landings anymore.  That's the tradeoff if the sport is going to be pushed technically, and I'd also argue that this evolution has made it possible for this sport to stop being a sport for sad-eyed, dour 14-year-olds (and all of the horrors that have come along with that) and to start being a sport for strong adult women (who are supportive of each other and seem happy to be performing).

Edited August 9 by NUguy514

[Makai]

I don’t think that the problem is that major errors aren’t penalized enough but the minor errors have too high a penalty. The best example I have is McKayla Maroney’s team final vault at Rio that got a 9.733. If very minor issues on a stuck vault cost more than a large step there is little hope of a beam routine with 8+ elements getting above the high eights in execution even with no major errors. Suni had an amazing bar routine at Olympic Trials with a stuck landing and got a 8.475 execution score. Upping difficulty if the only realistic way of gaining ground with how execution is currently judged. 

2 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

That's true for basically every top gymnast since the 10.0 scoring system was changed, though.  I don't find Simone to be unique in this regard because no one sticks all their landings anymore.  That's the tradeoff if the sport is going to be pushed technically, and I'd also argue that this evolution has made it possible for this sport to stop being a sport for sad-eyed, dour 14-year-olds (and all of the horrors that have come along with that) and to start being a sport for strong adult women (who are supportive of each other and seem happy to be performing).

This and Simone has good execution on her skills in the air so I think she could still excel in the 10.0 system. She has adapted to the current system and I’m sure she could adapt to a different system.

[Conotocarious]

Has anyone watched the 1992 events? Only the compulsories are any good from an “artistry” standpoint. The execution was often terrible in the air for the tumbling, which was a bunch of double backs and full twisting pike double backs, which besides being boring are ugly. Cowboy legs everywhere so “artistic” (read: taller and skinny) gymnasts can crank them around. Everyone going to pieces because they took one small step and destroyed years of hard work? No thank you, the entire training experience is not worth that. No wonder everyone was so high strung and miserable.

I even watched 1988 and had to laugh at the judges indiscriminately chucking tens for routines with clear errors (if you were Russian and Romanian, of course!). I remember gymnastics back then fondly but actually going back and watching the reality is eye-opening.

The way it is now is so much better. Simone has the difficulty and the execution. She gets penalized for her errors and it can cost her gold. I still think people are salty about how much higher her difficulty is and how lopsided the last 10 years has been but that’s what happens when someone breaks the mold. Everyone tries to catch up.

I’d be ok with compulsories only because everyone does the same routine and it’s easy to compare one to one. But even then a girl’s body and the way it looks is going to out weigh the ones who have a different body type and that’s a road we’ve already traveled and it doesn’t lead the sport in a healthy direction.

And Tara was the queen of pre-rotated jumps. Lucky for her she was “on” that night but that was beginning of the end for that sport.

Edited August 9 by Conotocarious

[Conotocarious]

8 hours ago, WhitneyWhit said:

In terms of difficulty outweighing execution, I’m gonna say something controversial that I usually keep to myself but Simone is lucky she competes in this era. There has been more than a few times over the years when some of her landings, particularly those huge steps on vault and some of her floor landings would have taken her out of contention for some of her titles under the 10.0 system. 

This era had to follow because the 10.0 system was a total joke. It had nowhere else to go. And Simone would have penalized under that old system first and foremost for her skin color and her body type not being some starved European. No. Thanks.

Also, for those wondering why we can’t force the gymnasts to be artistic like rhythmic gymnasts, I wonder if anyone has even delved into the eating disorders that practically define that sport. When it becomes about “lines” a huge chunk of girls can forget about being successful no matter how well they point their toes. That is bullshit.

[Daisy]

I am not going to speak for everyone else, but I'm not saying we need to go back to the 10.0 system. Gymnastics/Figure Skating made it extremely flawed. (esp. because it was basically common knowledge you had to hold back on scoring in the first flights because the last flights were coming up - since Tara v Michelle was brought up, I watched their two performances again and Scott Hamilton flat out stated - he wonders what Michelle's score would be had she been later into rotation. Elvis Stojko always made comments about this as well, like if you were earlier - you had the pressure of not only going early, but being a lot better because the room for error was smaller vs going later. Diving - i feel due to there being 6 dives - can still get away with 10.0 scoring because there's six attempts at 6 different dives and there's never been an Olympic diving meet that I've watched where someone hasn't moved from like near the bottom to a medal position - or vice versa - off their last 2 dives. including this Olympics where Canada splashed their medal away instead of splish). 

I am personally saying that i feel that it doesn't have to be one or the other (which is how FIG is doing it now). I feel it should be weighed equally.  It just seems to me that Every Olympiad (and I follow a very informative gymnastics youtube channel) - every COP continues to lower the demand for artistry - and amps up the athletic component and in a sport that should be about blending the two  - that doesn't sit right. there's always going to be a gymnast who is a lot more dominant in the athletic portion - there's also going to be some more dominant in portion, and I think if the artistic aspect was a bit more favoured - we'd see a lot more taking risks artistically  and see a blend of the two together. right now the risk to be artistic is not there and that's sad for me. I also know they won't bring back compulsories for a huge  myriad of reasons. i just simply liked them and it's a wish that they could somehow make it work. that's all.

I really don't have a horse in this race mostly because Canada is a non entity at the Olympics when it comes to Gymnastics so this isn't me  being oh grumble grumble it's not benefiting MY country. I'm usually team USA for the most part in competitions (depending on the sport. lol its a complicated process haha)  - and my desires/wishes wouldn't help Canada either. 

I think i'll just leave it there, because ultimately, I know everyone watches the Olympics for a lot of different things so even though there are some things that I could go "well who cares" - well you care and that's important LOL so it doesn't matter if I get it or not.  I just wanted to clear things up on my end. 

[BlackberryJam]

With sports that are judged subjectively, there is always going to be a push-pull between difficulty and artistry. I enjoy Simone's dancing part of the floor because it's so her.

However, Simone's beautiful, incredible, amazing body is not the same as Misty Copeland's beautiful, incredible, amazing body. Even if they did the exact same pirouette, Misty's is going to look more pleasing because of her body type.

With gymnastics, the push for more emphasis on "artistry" often means pushing for more balletic moves, and unfortunately, thinner, less visibly muscular bodies. 

 

[Conotocarious]

43 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

With sports that are judged subjectively, there is always going to be a push-pull between difficulty and artistry. I enjoy Simone's dancing part of the floor because it's so her.

However, Simone's beautiful, incredible, amazing body is not the same as Misty Copeland's beautiful, incredible, amazing body. Even if they did the exact same pirouette, Misty's is going to look more pleasing because of her body type.

With gymnastics, the push for more emphasis on "artistry" often means pushing for more balletic moves, and unfortunately, thinner, less visibly muscular bodies. 

 

Absolutely. And again, we’ve already been here in gymnastics so this isn’t even speculation…it’s absolutely where it goes. 

[NUguy514]

4 hours ago, Conotocarious said:

Has anyone watched the 1992 events? Only the compulsories are any good from an “artistry” standpoint. The execution was often terrible in the air for the tumbling, which was a bunch of double backs and full twisting pike double backs, which besides being boring are ugly. Cowboy legs everywhere so “artistic” (read: taller and skinny) gymnasts can crank them around. Everyone going to pieces because they took one small step and destroyed years of hard work? No thank you, the entire training experience is not worth that. No wonder everyone was so high strung and miserable.

I even watched 1988 and had to laugh at the judges indiscriminately chucking tens for routines with clear errors (if you were Russian and Romanian, of course!). I remember gymnastics back then fondly but actually going back and watching the reality is eye-opening.

The way it is now is so much better. Simone has the difficulty and the execution. She gets penalized for her errors and it can cost her gold. I still think people are salty about how much higher her difficulty is and how lopsided the last 10 years has been but that’s what happens when someone breaks the mold. Everyone tries to catch up.

I’d be ok with compulsories only because everyone does the same routine and it’s easy to compare one to one. But even then a girl’s body and the way it looks is going to out weigh the ones who have a different body type and that’s a road we’ve already traveled and it doesn’t lead the sport in a healthy direction.

And Tara was the queen of pre-rotated jumps. Lucky for her she was “on” that night but that was beginning of the end for that sport.

Alllllllllll of this.

Tara pre-rotated every jump she ever jumped and never did a true Lutz in her life.  Her technique was based on roller skating (for instance, jumping an inch off the ground but landing fifty feet down the rink), and it was ghastly.  She was never correctly penalized for those issues.  Michelle Kwan was, is, and always will be robbed of that gold medal.

I would invite everyone wishing for the halcyon days of yore in gymnastics to go back and watch the competition from both the 1988 and the 1992 Olympics.  In 1988, visible errors were ignored if you were Romanian or Soviet, and you never scored under a 9.9 and could still score a 10.0 with a hop or two.  Yelena Shushunova flapped her arms like a vertiginous pelican to avoid hops on a few of her landings, which should've been a deduction (also, she should've been deducted for having hideous form in all respects), and scored a few 10.0s.  In 1992, aside from Lu Li's bars, a few of Shannon's routines, and Tatiana Lysenko's beam routine, the routines were not pretty.  In particular, the floor routines looked so similar and were so ugly.  Lavinia Miloșovici's floor routine is one of the ugliest things you will ever see, and she scored a 10.0 on it to win that event final – and looked totally miserable the whole time.  All of the gymnasts looked miserable almost all of the time in both Olympics (because they were being horrifically abused), and the actual gymnastics weren't really better.

[Conotocarious]

25 minutes ago, NUguy514 said:

Alllllllllll of this.

Tara pre-rotated every jump she ever jumped and never did a true Lutz in her life.  Her technique was based on roller skating (for instance, jumping an inch off the ground but landing fifty feet down the rink), and it was ghastly.  She was never correctly penalized for those issues.  Michelle Kwan was, is, and always will be robbed of that gold medal.

I would invite everyone wishing for the halcyon days of yore in gymnastics to go back and watch the competition from both the 1988 and the 1992 Olympics.  In 1988, visible errors were ignored if you were Romanian or Soviet, and you never scored under a 9.9 and could still score a 10.0 with a hop or two.  Yelena Shushunova flapped her arms like a vertiginous pelican to avoid hops on a few of her landings, which should've been a deduction (also, she should've been deducted for having hideous form in all respects), and scored a few 10.0s.  In 1992, aside from Lu Li's bars, a few of Shannon's routines, and Tatiana Lysenko's beam routine, the routines were not pretty.  In particular, the floor routines looked so similar and were so ugly.  Lavinia Miloșovici's floor routine is one of the ugliest things you will ever see, and she scored a 10.0 on it to win that event final – and looked totally miserable the whole time.  All of the gymnasts looked miserable almost all of the time in both Olympics (because they were being horrifically abused), and the actual gymnastics weren't really better.

It’s like we are the same person!

 

LOL to your amazing description of Shushanova. It is absolutely right.

And many of the 1992 floor routines fell into two categories….screechy violin “look at me I’m so ARTISTIC” routines, and then cutesy, cringey ones that made me want to hide behind a pillow in second hand embarrassment. 

[BlackberryJam]

19 minutes ago, NUguy514 said:

 Lavinia Miloșovici's floor routine is one of the ugliest things you will ever see, and she scored a 10.0 on it to win that event final – and looked totally miserable the whole time.  

You weren’t lying. I want to go back in time and give that girl a teddy bear and a warm cup of cocoa. 
 

Sure, Lilia P.’s 1996 floor had some lovely leaps but also had a lot of weird arm flapping and jerky steps to get to the corner of the mat. And weird posing.

Katelyn Ohashi’s 2019 NCAA floor incorporates dance better than Lilia’s. Yeah, I said it.

[Conotocarious]

2 minutes ago, BlackberryJam said:

You weren’t lying. I want to go back in time and give that girl a teddy bear and a warm cup of cocoa. 
 

Sure, Lilia P.’s 1996 floor had some lovely leaps but also had a lot of weird arm flapping and jerky steps to get to the corner of the mat. And weird posing.

Katelyn Ohashi’s 2019 NCAA floor incorporates dance better than Lilia’s. Yeah, I said it.

Its funny you bring up Lillia, I was watching her floor routine on YouTube months ago (as you do if you’re….well, me) and I came across comments just ripping her for those “balletic” movements which people with actual ballet experience could see were….not great. But that’s apparently the key….be ballerina…on the ice, in the gym…you get that ballet in there you’re golden. If I wanted to watch ballet, I’d go see Swan Lake.

[BlackberryJam]

2 minutes ago, Conotocarious said:

Its funny you bring up Lillia, I was watching her floor routine on YouTube months ago (as you do if you’re….well, me) and I came across comments just ripping her for those “balletic” movements which people with actual ballet experience could see were….not great. But that’s apparently the key….be ballerina…on the ice, in the gym…you get that ballet in there you’re golden. If I wanted to watch ballet, I’d go see Swan Lake.

Thank you! That pirouette is not good. 

Maybe I just see that now that I’ve been exposed to so much more quality dance. I remember loving that routine back in the day.

Also, doesn’t everyone periodically fall down the rabbit hole of watching old routines?….