S01.E06: Ladies of the Willow World

[paulvdb]

Quote

Lady Ochiba returns to Osaka in order to accelerate the Regents' campaign against Toranaga. In Ajiro, Toranaga tests Mariko's loyalty to his cause.

Premiere date: March 26, 2024

[paigow]

Irony, thy name is Blackthorne...

He keeps getting everything - except what he really wants

He is the object of resentment / envy for getting these unwanted rewards

He might end up allied with the Portuguese 

[DoctorAtomic]

Ah, I forgot that she said 'the council is outmaneuvered' prior to saying 'you answer to me now'. So she's to get it on with while they dither. Nice to see Mariko actually trained in combat too. 

Toranaga no fool. "Take Anjin to a brothel and you go too." The negotiations with the brothelTea House owner were fantastic. "Oh, so much damage from the earthquake! Wait, the white guy? You coming too? Oh, we're the pinnacle of discretion." Even the courtesan no fool. That eightfold fence is going to explode at some point. 

Crimson Sky sounds like the stupidest plan in the history of stupid plans. The critical asset is the Heir. You could just make a surgical strike and sneak him out of there. Maybe a big diversion like a fake siege on the castle. Or just kill him. Then there's no Heir at all. I think Toranaga is the only one that genuinely cares for him. 

I got nothing against a brothel, but this would have been a bit much for me. I enjoyed Blackthorne's bemusement. At least he was smart enough to not cause a scene. 

Toranaga might be better off letting the regents beat each other up and then just swoop in a wreck shop while they're weak. 

19 hours ago, paigow said:

He might end up allied with the Portuguese 

I think he actually likes Toranaga and wouldn't do that to him. If anything, Blackthorne has been (inadvertently) realpolitik and very frank with Toranaga. Pirating the trade routes isn't a bad idea to hit them in the wallet. Toranaga is also the only one that knows about the Line of Demarcation at that Portugal is really no friend to "the Japans." I don't think he wants to make that first move though. 

Edited March 27 by DoctorAtomic

[Haleth]

I was so happy to see Fuji was alive.  I thought she had been mortally wounded in the earthquake.

Ochiba is quite the politician and mama bear.  It took her all of 2 minutes to manipulate the regents to her will.

The brothel scene was beautifully shot, with Kiku (?) disappearing behind Mariko, allowing Mariko to speak from her heart.

This episode was certainly Ladies' Night!

[Constantinople]

Crimson Sky was top secret even though the whole point of Blackthorne training an artillery unit is to blow apart the walls of Osaka Castle?

That makes sense.

And so much for drawing out Ishido by turning Jozen into street pizza.

[paigow]

10 hours ago, DoctorAtomic said:

I think he actually likes Toranaga and wouldn't do that to him. If anything, Blackthorne has been (inadvertently) realpolitik and very frank with Toranaga.

The Portuguese realize that Toranaga might be a better ally... then Blackthorne would have to fall in line....

[Raja]

3 minutes ago, paigow said:

The Portuguese realize that Toranaga might be a better ally... then Blackthorne would have to fall in line....

Do the Portuguese realize that? It seems like one younger Priest does while the Bishop is running with the council. Meanwhile the Captain General of the Black Ship was going to ignore Lord Toranaga when it seemed like he was the Regent that controlled the ports and okayed the release to sail.

38 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I was so happy to see Fuji was alive.  I thought she had been mortally wounded in the earthquake.

Like the bird scene a scene between the hatamoto and his consort that I remember from 1980.  I wonder if the scene when Blackthorne arrived where she was being treated from burns was a substitute. In any case unless its a ruling class thing not to show pain to others she seems remarkably recovered for the few days that I think it has been.

43 minutes ago, Haleth said:

The brothel scene was beautifully shot, with Kiku (?) disappearing behind Mariko, allowing Mariko to speak from her heart.

I think that both Lord Toranaga and the Tea House lady seemed to suspect about Lady Mariko and Blackthorne. Even her husband from the episode before with how he describes his wife and then ending with barbarians should stick together and then that she seems happy around Blackthorne might also think so.  I don't think they had captured Korean women or other courtesans to describe as barbarians working in that industry back then, but perhaps there were.

That Lady Mariko always editorializes as they give us a different subtitle for the translation than what Blackthorne actually says makes me think Lady Kiku could have just made noise even if she positioned herself so the couple would have to look at each other. Just like when Lady Kiku put on a sex show for Lord Yabushige before she was setting up to step aside entirely for Lady Mariko. When Lady Mariko was praying in Latin I do wonder if enough  Christians are around  how many spies not serving as official translators could listen in?

On 3/25/2024 at 10:47 PM, paigow said:

He is the object of resentment / envy for getting these unwanted rewards

Poor Lord Omi, he got in the first insult but now the woman he loves pillowed with a barbarian and on the top of that his short lived command of the canon regiment is put under Anjin.

43 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Crimson Sky was top secret even though the whole point of Blackthorne training an artillery unit is to blow apart the walls of Osaka Castle?

Was that the entire point of the unit or just the selling point  Blackthorne used knowing he wasn't fit to command an infantry unit used to show the samurai he was  worthy of being a hatamoto? In the end Lord Yabushige didn't see breaking down walls but just range and accuracy far beyond what canon the Portuguese shared had.

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

Do the Portuguese realize that? It seems like one younger Priest does while the Bishop is running with the council. Meanwhile the Captain General of the Black Ship was going to ignore Lord Toranaga when it seemed like he was the Regent that controlled the ports and okayed the release to sail.

Toranaga doesn't care for all the christian nonsense either, so I don't think the Portuguese overall would want to ally with him. At this point, he's in a weaker position anyway. The Portuguese arrogance on them thinking they rule half the world and it's catholic or nothing is going to be their undoing. 

2 hours ago, Raja said:

I think that both Lord Toranaga and the Tea House lady seemed to suspect about Lady Mariko and Blackthorne.

You think? As subdued as the Japanese are, the both of them, and the courtesan were practically shouting at Mariko to have sex with Blackthorne. Even Toranaga snipped 'what the hell is it with you two?' when they were arguing in from of him. The Tea House lady was more dramatic. 

[Jack Shaftoe]

The politics are getting sillier and sillier. So holding regents and their loved ones hostage and then killing one of them along with his entourage is fine but you need to follow letter of the law to "impeach" Toranaga and declare him an outlaw? Really? Ishido's claim that Toranaga would be finished if Ochiba said she knew he was behind her father's death was beyond laughable. Why not, I don't know, declare him an outlaw for allowing your emissary to be used as literal cannon fodder? Or just do it for no legal reason, since you are totally comfortable following the might makes right principle in all your other moves?

And Toranaga's answer is to... rush to attack the biggest fortress. Truly a man of genius, that guy.

I see what they are trying to do with Ochiba and women pulling the strings behind the scenes in patriarchal societies is one of my favorite tropes but it's just not working for me in this case. Maybe it's the affected way in which she talks, reminds of me cliched anime villains and I keep expecting her to start cackling evilly. But it's also because she acts like being mother of the heir is some ultimate trump card even though the Taiko wasn't a king, emperor or any other sort of formally hereditary ruler and she wasn't even married to him, IIRC. The Taiko had hundreds of concubines but only she bore him a child? You would think people would be rather suspicious of that.

Mariko's father married her to nobody, so she wouldn't be killed? Explain like I am five how this would help.

Blackthorne again thinks Toranaga is going to give him his ship back. And that he can make him attack the Portuguese just like that and when Toranaga (of course) refuses, he has yet another hissy fit.

The brothel scene was way too melodramatic for my taste. And if Kiku is such an expensive, high class courtesan, how does a nobody like Omi afford her? Why is she constantly in that village in the middle of nowhere? Why not invite her to Blackthorne's house the way she visits Omi rather than turning everything into a public circus?

Best part were Fuji's reactions during the haggling with the brothel owner. Top class side eye! More of that and less of Mariko and Blackthorne's boring as hell romance, please.

[Raja]

7 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

I see what they are trying to do with Ochiba and women pulling the strings behind the scenes in patriarchal societies is one of my favorite tropes but it's just not working for me in this case. Maybe it's the affected way in which she talks, reminds of me cliched anime villains and I keep expecting her to start cackling evilly. But it's also because she acts like being mother of the heir is some ultimate trump card even though the Taiko wasn't a king, emperor or any other sort of formally hereditary ruler and she wasn't even married to him, IIRC. The Taiko had hundreds of concubines but only she bore him a child? You would think people would be rather suspicious of that.

In the flashback deathbed scene the Taiko did ask Lord Toranaga with the line about something about beautiful women. But after failing with his wife and more consorts as they aged I expect everyone suspected he fired blanks and a surrogate father sneaked in. Or given the Taiko's wife's remarks  Lady Ochiba took matters into her own hands and snuck someone in on her own accord. 

And as with Blackthorne and Lady Mariko while everybody suspects perhaps general politeness demands that they say nothing. We are centuries away from blood typing, much less DNA testing to prove things. 

13 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

The brothel scene was way too melodramatic for my taste. And if Kiku is such an expensive, high class courtesan, how does a nobody like Omi afford her? Why is she constantly in that village in the middle of nowhere? Why not invite her to Blackthorne's house the way she visits Omi rather than turning everything into a public circus?

Big fish in a little pond, she is the best there is right there. The local Lord, presumably the most powerful man in that village,  loves her and his boss utilizes her when he comes to town. Maybe the samurai of the army have their own camp followers or they were the other clients who moved aside for Blackthorne like Lord Omi did because of Lord Toranaga's orders.?

Having the parade of the hatamoto coming back from the Tea House with Lady Kiku with smiles does take some pressure off of what I think everybody suspects about the barbarian and Lady Mariko pillowing.

[mledawn]

46 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

The politics are getting sillier and sillier. So holding regents and their loved ones hostage and then killing one of them along with his entourage is fine but you need to follow letter of the law to "impeach" Toranaga and declare him an outlaw? Really? Ishido's claim that Toranaga would be finished if Ochiba said she knew he was behind her father's death was beyond laughable. Why not, I don't know, declare him an outlaw for allowing your emissary to be used as literal cannon fodder? Or just do it for no legal reason, since you are totally comfortable following the might makes right principle in all your other moves?

And Toranaga's answer is to... rush to attack the biggest fortress. Truly a man of genius, that guy.

I see what they are trying to do with Ochiba and women pulling the strings behind the scenes in patriarchal societies is one of my favorite tropes but it's just not working for me in this case. Maybe it's the affected way in which she talks, reminds of me cliched anime villains and I keep expecting her to start cackling evilly. But it's also because she acts like being mother of the heir is some ultimate trump card even though the Taiko wasn't a king, emperor or any other sort of formally hereditary ruler and she wasn't even married to him, IIRC. The Taiko had hundreds of concubines but only she bore him a child? You would think people would be rather suspicious of that.

Mariko's father married her to nobody, so she wouldn't be killed? Explain like I am five how this would help.

The brothel scene was way too melodramatic for my taste. And if Kiku is such an expensive, high class courtesan, how does a nobody like Omi afford her? Why is she constantly in that village in the middle of nowhere? Why not invite her to Blackthorne's house the way she visits Omi rather than turning everything into a public circus?

Best part were Fuji's reactions during the haggling with the brothel owner. Top class side eye! More of that and less of Mariko and Blackthorne's boring as hell romance, please.

My iPad is old and replying to multiple quotes is painful with it so I apologize in advance…

People definitely question how Lady Ochiba was the only one to sire an heir. It was why Ishido was so riveted to her story - as if she might have confessed.

Buntaro is the son of Toronaga’s military advisor Hiromatsu. It is an honourable/revered samurai family.

Crimson Sky as a plan existed before Blackthorne arrived to Japan.  The cannon regiment just worked out in Toronaga”s favour.

I absolutely loved Fuji’s facial expressions while Mariko negotiated Kiku’s price.

[Jack Shaftoe]

Come to think of it, Ishido killing Sugiyama was a deeply stupid move. His clan now will probably join Toranaga or at least do nothing to support Ishido. Then again, it seems like escaping from Osaka is surprisingly easy, so maybe he had no choice after all. :)

2 minutes ago, mledawn said:

Buntaro is the son of Toronaga’s military advisor Hiromatsu. It is an honourable/revered samurai family.

I thought they were a fairly influential family but in this episode Mariko and Toranaga strongly suggested otherwise, hence my confusion.

5 minutes ago, mledawn said:

People definitely question how Lady Ochiba was the only one to sire an heir. It was why Ishido was so riveted to her story - as if she might have confessed.

Do they? You would think someone would have made political capital from the Heir's uncertain ancestry by now. It's exactly because there were no DNA tests that rumors like that could be pretty effective when trying to discredit political opponents. If Ishido thinks Ochiba is cheating why on earth is he her biggest supporter?

[aghst]

Blackthorne took how long to get to Japan?

It was an ambitious mission, to contest Portuguese dominance of trade with China and Japan.

So now, he wants to leave and have what to show for it when he gets back?  Sure he has a wife and a child he's never seen, but a guy who embarks on a voyage like this isn't just going back like a tourist after he got some lay of the land.

In any event, Toranaga wanted to placate Anjin but he smelled it was relationship troubles, so he first asked Mariko what was up between them and then orders her to take her to a brothel.  So that if there was a thing between them, he'd draw it out.

Thing is, my recollection of the book was that the Japanese supposedly had no hangups about sex and monogamy.  In fact the swimming contest between Toranaga and Anjin, Mariko takes part, she undresses in the book in front of all those men, including Anjin, who notices.

So was Mariko going to be jealous of Kiku sleeping with Anjin?  She's at least going to be able to hide it.

The negotiation of the price was amusing.  But isn't Toronaga ultimately paying?  He gives his subjects their income.

 

[mledawn]

1 minute ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Do they? You would think someone would have made political capital from the Heir's uncertain ancestry by now. It's exactly because there were no DNA tests that rumors like that could be pretty effective when trying to discredit political opponents. If Ishido thinks Ochiba is cheating why on earth is he her biggest supporter?

Lady Ochiba is not Ishido’s wife/consort. She was the Taiko’s consort. He is kissing up to her because she is the one with power at this point. Ochiba is backing Ishido because she hates Toronaga for his involvement in her father’s death. But in this episode or the last, her mother or an elder close to her says she has hitched her wagon to the wrong horse - the belief being that Toronaga is the better strategist/leader.

[Jack Shaftoe]

2 minutes ago, mledawn said:

Lady Ochiba is not Ishido’s wife/consort. She was the Taiko’s consort. He is kissing up to her because she is the one with power at this point.

But she isn't, that's the whole point. He is the head of a powerful clan and a Regent. She, on the other hand, can only make stuff happen by convincing powerful men to do her bidding. Ochiba needs Ishido (or someone else like him) to achieve anything at all. Ishido doesn't need her. In fact, his life would probably a lot easier if he got rid of her. Yet, he acts like she is some European style Queen Mother with formal powers of a regent - and even those queens were usually shoved aside by men like him.

[Raja]

14 minutes ago, mledawn said:

Lady Ochiba is not Ishido’s wife/consort. She was the Taiko’s consort. He is kissing up to her because she is the one with power at this point. Ochiba is backing Ishido because she hates Toronaga for his involvement in her father’s death. But in this episode or the last, her mother or an elder close to her says she has hitched her wagon to the wrong horse - the belief being that Toronaga is the better strategist/leader.

I think that the older woman dress as a nun is the Taikò's widow.

[DoctorAtomic]

2 hours ago, Raja said:

Or given the Taiko's wife's remarks  Lady Ochiba took matters into her own hands and snuck someone in on her own accord. 

When she was going on in the end about 'scratching out the eyes of fate' I'm thinking she pulled a Titus Pullo from "Rome". 

1 hour ago, aghst said:

The negotiation of the price was amusing.  But isn't Toronaga ultimately paying?  He gives his subjects their income.

Well, he's expecting his trusted advisor and translator to negotiate in good faith so he doesn't get ripped off. He doesn't need to micromanage. 

1 hour ago, aghst said:

So was Mariko going to be jealous of Kiku sleeping with Anjin?  She's at least going to be able to hide it.

She was practically swooning when translating at the Tea House. She'll be able to hide it, but I said before, that eightfold fence is going to explode a some point. Ironically, I don't think Toranaga cares. He even told her to just get a divorce. 

I'm very slightly irked from the Japanese to English subtitles because they are showing in English quite exactly what the Japanese are saying. There's a lot of 'he' 'her' pronouns, where the Japanese are saying the actual character names. Or when they're saying various ways of "yes, understood" are translated into a longer sentence. I suppose it's only for exposition, but I tend to catch that. Not that big a deal. 

[Constantinople]

8 hours ago, Raja said:

Was that the entire point of the unit or just the selling point  Blackthorne used knowing he wasn't fit to command an infantry unit used to show the samurai he was  worthy of being a hatamoto? In the end Lord Yabushige didn't see breaking down walls but just range and accuracy far beyond what canon the Portuguese shared had.

Well that's how Blackthorne sold it to Yabushige.

From Episode 4

Quote

Mariko-sama, please tell him that in my opinion gun tactics are useless compared to the fine art of English naval warfare.That castle in Osaka, it’s impregnable. Yes, with swords, even matchlocks, to lay siege would take months. But anchor my ship and cannon within a few thousand yards, and your army could breach the castle walls without so much as an arrow’s fletching to graze their cheeks.

Then Blackthorne gave a demonstration.

And we know Mariko makes written reports to Toranaga about what Blackthorne says and does.

[Constantinople]

3 hours ago, mledawn said:

Buntaro is the son of Toronaga’s military advisor Hiromatsu. It is an honourable/revered samurai family.

Yet in the flashback Mariko says an alliance with the Toda clan is worthless and a joke.

[Raja]

4 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

The politics are getting sillier and sillier. So holding regents and their loved ones hostage and then killing one of them along with his entourage is fine but you need to follow letter of the law to "impeach" Toranaga and declare him an outlaw? Really? Ishido's claim that Toranaga would be finished if Ochiba said she knew he was behind her father's death was beyond laughable. Why not, I don't know, declare him an outlaw for allowing your emissary to be used as literal cannon fodder? Or just do it for no legal reason, since you are totally comfortable following the might makes right principle in all your other moves?

And Toranaga's answer is to... rush to attack the biggest fortress. Truly a man of genius, that guy.

Ultimately the plot is a coup d'état. There is no national  army, just a collection of clan leaders who came together under the Taiko. And so far all of them are saying that they would remain loyal until his son came of age to take over as chief regent or Shogun, being of royal, for lack of a better term, blood..

Without the rules holding the regents at bay they would ultimately return to the old ways of the warring clans. And that process had already began with the impeachment of one Regent and the assassination of a second. We are already down to 3-2 with the minor Lords who get voted onto the council probably not wielding the power that Lady Ochiba has with the Taiko's clan.

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Yet in the flashback Mariko says an alliance with the Toda clan is worthless and a joke.

Well it certainly became worthless due to her father's actions. In the end Lord Toranaga only got a translator of questionable loyalty out of the deal.

[paigow]

Now Ishido has to find another actor for the newly created council vacancy...

[Raja]

53 minutes ago, paigow said:

Now Ishido has to find another actor for the newly created council vacancy...

Yes but the two Christians and the actor now know the penalty for not agreeing.

[mledawn]

8 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

But she isn't, that's the whole point. He is the head of a powerful clan and a Regent. She, on the other hand, can only make stuff happen by convincing powerful men to do her bidding. Ochiba needs Ishido (or someone else like him) to achieve anything at all. Ishido doesn't need her. In fact, his life would probably a lot easier if he got rid of her. Yet, he acts like she is some European style Queen Mother with formal powers of a regent - and even those queens were usually shoved aside by men like him

Ochiba is also the head of a powerful clan - the lineage of the Taiko. Ishido has to acquiesce to her bidding as he knows the Council of Regents is only ruling because the heir is not yet of age. He recognises her place in the hierarchy. If Ishido goes against her, he goes against the heir and the heir's rightful place as Taiko. She holds power in this society precisely because she is the King Mother.

Aside from all of that, Lady Ochiba is intelligent and shrewd, who (likely) learned a lot about warfare and strategy from her vicious warlord father. She is revered and feared.

[Jack Shaftoe]

16 minutes ago, mledawn said:

Ochiba is also the head of a powerful clan - the lineage of the Taiko

No, she isn't. She is a woman who wasn't even married to him. She doesn't have an army or lands of her own, as far as I can tell. She may exert considerable informal influence but that's not how the scenes with her and Ishido play out at all. It's basically him repeatedly saying "yes, milady" and that's in stark contrast with the way the likes of Mariko and Fuji have to act in order to exert influence in this deeply misogynist society.

6 hours ago, Raja said:

Well it certainly became worthless due to her father's actions.

Mariko thought the match was a terrible idea even before her father went and killed Not!Nobunaga.

6 hours ago, Raja said:

Without the rules holding the regents at bay they would ultimately return to the old ways of the warring clans.

Indeed but considering how openly both Ishido and Toranaga have flouted the rules, one wonder why Ishido is obsessed with impeaching Toranaga by following the letter of the law rather than go "See that big army over there? It's mine. Now bring me Toranaga's head, chop-chop".

[ofmd]

Mothers of heirs have held power (until said heir came of age) in many cultures, I don't have a problem accepting Lady Ochiba does.

[mledawn]

8 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

No, she isn't. She is a woman who wasn't even married to him. She doesn't have an army or lands of her own, as far as I can tell. She may exert considerable informal influence but that's not how the scenes with her and Ishido play out at all. It's basically him repeatedly saying "yes, milady" and that's in stark contrast with the way the likes of Mariko and Fuji have to act in order to exert influence in this deeply misogynist society.

Lady Ochiba holds tremendous power in this age and culture as the woman who gave the Taiko an heir. Admittedly, there is a lot of nuance missing in the miniseries vs the book, and we miss out on not hearing the internal monologues of characters and some of the history of the society, but I think this has been made clear. If you disagree with this key point, then yes, nothing else will make sense.

Ishido would not risk acting alone and potentially losing the support of the other Regents. His big army is not just his - it is an amalgamation of his vassals and the other Regents who support him because of who he is and what he stands for - ensuring the heir becomes Taiko. Ishido and Ochiba are very anti-Christian. He would immediately lose support from the Christian daimyos should he move forward with a blunt show of force. The fact that he is following her direction is a combination of strategies on his part.

 

[Filmobaza]

Great episode. In my opinion the best of the season.

[Raja]

9 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

She is a woman who wasn't even married to him.

From what I am getting from the hatamoto and Lady Fuji it seems the consort might not be married but the society gives great weight to that arrangement.

[Jack Shaftoe]

4 hours ago, mledawn said:

Ishido would not risk acting alone and potentially losing the support of the other Regents.

Yet he did precisely that by openly forcing three other regents to act under duress and then even murdering one of them in this very episode.

[mledawn]

7 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

Yet he did precisely that by openly forcing three other regents to act under duress and then even murdering one of them in this very episode.

What Ishido did is not the same as simply gathering his army and steamrolling everyone else. Definitely going to just agree to disagree.

[Raja]

On 3/27/2024 at 2:24 PM, Constantinople said:

Yet in the flashback Mariko says an alliance with the Toda clan is worthless and a joke.

On the second watching it does play like Lady Mariko was mad that she wasn't married off directly to someone of Lord Toranaga's clan, or another of the highest rank that her father held, instead of being married down to a son of a lower ranked vassal.

[Raja]

On 3/27/2024 at 10:44 AM, aghst said:

So now, he wants to leave and have what to show for it when he gets back?  Sure he has a wife and a child he's never seen, but a guy who embarks on a voyage like this isn't just going back like a tourist after he got some lay of the land.

Remembering that Magellan got killed in what became the Philippines I do wonder what kind of pensions they had for the  families of the officers and crew as many like most of Blackthorne's colleagues would never return home. Their mission being more going on a war patrol than on a peacetime merchant run in casualty rates. The investments made being made for a squadron going into the unknown with a letter to plunder the Spanish was probably done with gambling money. That the kingdoms rarely hit but had the opportunity to strike it rich.

As the Anjin is not all in with the "savages" and still see's some of their ways as just as  barbaric Japanese see the Europeans ways is a reason to leave. But most of all in every situation we have seen Blackthorne in he performs with  a we don't leave our people behind type ethic. And at every opportunity as the senior surviving officer of his ship he asks about his remaining crew. It is as much his duty to try to get them home as it is for Lady Fuji to be the best consort that she can be.

Considering Lady Fuji's conversation with her uncle I am thinking the 6 months she bargained down to was with the fear that the hatamoto would  demand the pillowing that is part of the gig if demanded. Fouling the kitchen being a relatively minor concern

[aghst]

Maybe he thinks he can return with reinforcements and make Japan trade with the English.

But before they give him more money, he's got to show that it's going to be worth another expedition.  This time probably for military conquest.

[Rickster]

I will confess I haven’t read the book. While I am enjoying the show, dramatically something seems off, with Blackthorne largely being a spectator to all the machinations going on around him. He effectively has close to zero involvement in the plot, especially given that there are only two episodes left.  I guess there are intended to be additional seasons in which he is more involved.

[MJ Frog]

Kiku was very well cast. Her fake smile and dead eyes during her time with Blackthorne creeped me out. She gave every impression of the cool competence combined with a mask of politeness that are the mark of any great servant.

[Raja]

2 hours ago, Rickster said:

I will confess I haven’t read the book. While I am enjoying the show, dramatically something seems off, with Blackthorne largely being a spectator to all the machinations going on around him. He effectively has close to zero involvement in the plot, especially given that there are only two episodes left.  I guess there are intended to be additional seasons in which he is more involved.

It seems to be the general consensus that this version focuses more on the Japanese compared to the stranger in a strange land of the 1980 version. Lots of folks also miss their favorite scenes from the novel when we hear characters inner thoughts. 

I  never read the book on only remember scenes here and there from 1980. But I have seen many hours, but not the entire 40 hour runs from 3 taiga dramas set around this time frame 

[magdalene]

2 hours ago, Rickster said:

I will confess I haven’t read the book. While I am enjoying the show, dramatically something seems off, with Blackthorne largely being a spectator to all the machinations going on around him. He effectively has close to zero involvement in the plot, especially given that there are only two episodes left.  I guess there are intended to be additional seasons in which he is more involved.

It's a one season series with 10 episodes, covering the entire novel.

To me Lady Ochiba isn't just powerful because she is the mother of the heir.  Her hatred has given her a certain aura, she doesn't seem quite sane to me and that makes her unnerving.  From what I remember she was an inspiration for GRRM's Cersei, which I totally get - though Ochiba comes across as much smarter than Cersei. Ochiba's historical counterpart certainly makes a worthy opponent for the historical Toranaga.

[MJ Frog]

On 3/27/2024 at 12:38 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

And if Kiku is such an expensive, high class courtesan, how does a nobody like Omi afford her?

I don't think he's paying her. It may be that someone else is as a means of influencing him, or it may be she's working for free with her own motivations. Either way, he thinks she's his girl.

[paigow]

Omi is not a low-level flunky... His father is a [traitorous] Capo for Toranaga... So Kiku has attached herself to the most influential family in the region that will become more powerful if Ishido wins. Unfortunately, Blackthorne is the wild card disrupting her plan...

21 hours ago, MJ Frog said:

 it may be she's working for free with her own motivations. Either way, he thinks she's his girl.

 

[Raja]

8 minutes ago, paigow said:

Omi is not a low-level flunky... His father is a [traitorous] Capo for Toranaga... So Kiku has attached herself to the most influential family in the region that will become more powerful if Ishido wins. Unfortunately, Blackthorne is the wild card disrupting her plan...

 

I believe Lord Yabushige is local Lord Omi's uncle. In any case he can keep his clan on Lord Toranaga's side and considering the initial pleasure and notice that was taken with Omi after tricking Toranaga's son Omi could have a future there.

So we basically have the Shogun/Taiko sitting with the Emperor in sort of a hereditary  Prime Minister to King situation. The council of Regents on the next level. The larger clan Lords like Yabushige and the actor who was just risen to the council following and then Omi's level perhaps the equivalent of a local Mayor under his uncle's larger holding. 

[Paws]

Can someone explain this to me because I’m unclear…when Blackthorne went to the brothel, did he actually pillow with Kiku or did Kiku allow him and Mariko to get it on? Or did he not pillow with anyone?  
 

Also, the actor who plays Toranaga is really owning this show. He’s fantastic.

Edited April 2 by Paws

[Raja]

5 hours ago, Paws said:

Can someone explain this to me because I’m unclear…when Blackthorne went to the brothel, did he actually pillow with Kiku or did Kiku allow him and Mariko to get it on? Or did he not pillow with anyone?  
 

Also, the actor who plays Toranaga is really owning this show. He’s fantastic.

By all indications Anjin needed to put on a public performance. While Lady Kiku read the attraction her clients held for each other and promised that what happened in the Willow World would stay in the Willow World Lady Mariko knew better and left with the "must be only you" in the room. 

Anjin's mission then became the writer's male fantasy, he must pillow with Kiku to take the public pressure off of the talk about him and Buntaro's wife. Blackthorne himself was a curious man before that point.  Although he has been at sea for years and the Japanese have told him on multiple occasions that given his status sexual relations was freely his he was remaining mostly celibate.  Only giving in to sexual desire when what he thought was a widow from a bad marriage seduced him one night.

[Brn2bwild]

On 3/27/2024 at 9:38 AM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Maybe it's the affected way in which she talks, reminds of me cliched anime villains and I keep expecting her to start cackling evilly.

I had the same reaction.  She also reminded me of Azula from Avatar: the Last Airbender.