S04.E01: Twovix

[AnimeMania]

The Cerritos ensigns must assist a caretaker on the voyage of a historically significant starship.

Air Date: September 7, 2023   Paramount+

[Arynm]

I am not ashamed to say that I squealed with joy like Mariner when I heard the theme and saw the USS Voyager.

I also really liked that they flat out said that Janeway murdered Tuvix. I really don't know what she should have done, but she did kill him.

Voyager has always been my favorite Trek so I was loving this episode, so many deep cuts of Voyager. I love an easter egg.  Loved!!!

[wanderingstar]

Ransom: Shaka, when the walls fell.

Kayshon: Sukath, his eyes uncovered.

I legit cackled.

[marinw]

"Don't you want to see Tuvok's quarters?"

"Are they austere?"  I am loving T’Lyn and Tendi.

No fair that Rutherford didn't get promoted!

Edited September 8, 2023 by marinw

[Chaos Theory]

"The ship was damaged by cheese?"

"It was Voyager.  Shit got freaky."  

 

And that is Voyager in a nutshell.

Edited September 8, 2023 by Chaos Theory

[greekmom]

I squealed when i heard the Voyager music and saw Voyager.

Wished they would have given us 1 small update on Harry Kim. Maybe Marnier could have noted how he was a Lower Decks but now is Captain. Something.

Not a popular opinion on the boards, but Janeway didn't kill Tuvix. She SAVED Neelix and Tuvok. 

Can't believe the callbacks to some of the worst episodes. But decent start to the season.

Loved that they finally promoted the lower deck folks. Would have been nice for a call back to the "little black box" stations.

 

[marinw]

Weird that there was no Kate Mulgrew cameo.

The mashup of various crew members was disturbing.

Both in this episode and “Those Old Scientists” Mariner is less jaded and genuinely excited by Starfleet history.

Edited September 8, 2023 by marinw

[marinw]

I am wondering how Tendi's dynamic with T'Lyn will impact her friendship with Rutherford. It's different because Rutherford is more about engineering and T'Lyn is about Science. 

Edited September 8, 2023 by marinw

[marceline]

11 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

"The ship was damaged by cheese?"

"It was Voyager.  Shit got freaky."  

I was surprised by that because Kayshon asked the question in English and not Tamerian.

This whole episode was just perfect Lower Decks.

Edited September 8, 2023 by marceline

[Chaos Theory]

I don’t remember much about voyager.  I enjoyed it at the time but it is also the one OldTrek (also Enterprise but that is a whole other thing) that I don’t rewatch regularly.  Don’t have an explanation why.   Maybe because although I never actually expected a Janeway/Seven pairing to actually happen to have Seven fall in love with Chakotay (who I kinda disliked) kinda bummed me out.      But that is on me.   And maybe I will give voyager a rewatch one of these days.    Because having Lowerdecks do a love letter to some of reportedly the worst/most controversial episodes of Voyager was kinda badass and I love them for it.   I love how excited everyone especially Mariner was.   I love Tendi and T’Lyn and how fast they are meshing as a team.    It all just works.  
 

 

[baldryanr]

16 hours ago, greekmom said:

Not a popular opinion on the boards, but Janeway didn't kill Tuvix. She SAVED Neelix and Tuvok. 

It doesn't have to be an either/or thing - both parts are true.  She did what a captain is supposed to do - make the hard call when there is no easy answer.  And let's not forget the rest of the crew stood there and did nothing, so they were complicit.

Even mediocre Starfleet officers (blue shirt Picard) can get promoted to junior lieutenants, but hey, at least you get better quarters when you rank up.

[Chicago Redshirt]

19 hours ago, greekmom said:

Not a popular opinion on the boards, but Janeway didn't kill Tuvix. She SAVED Neelix and Tuvok. 

Been a while since I watched Tuvix, but there was no guarantee that the procedure would work to bring Neelix and Tuvok as separate individuals, whereas there was as far as we know 100 percent of Tuvix living a long natural life and the ship profiting from the combined wit, wisdom and experience of both of them. I don't think it would seem like the right call if it meant that neither Tuvok, Neelix or Tuvix survived.

[Chicago Redshirt]

18 hours ago, marinw said:

Weird that there was no Kate Mulgrew cameo.

The mashup of various crew members was disturbing.

Both in this episode and “Those Old Scientists” Mariner is less jaded and genuinely excited by Starfleet history.

I would have expected a cameo from at least a Voyager actor -- Jeri Ryan and Tim Russ were both in the final season of Picard, and I feel like they could relatively easily get Picardo, or Dawson to do a quick line or two. 

I feel like there is a conscious decision to soften Mariner up. A group of fans have been put off by how disrespectful and anti-Starfleet she was originally, and how she was condescending toward Boimler in particular. The amount of whining she did left for some people an open question as to: well if you hate Starfleet so much, why not GTFO? 

The answer is that despite her mommy issues, her issues with authority/bureaucracy, her PTSD, self-sabotaging behavior and/or other mental health issues, she actually likes Starfleet. I don't know if the reveal of this will seem too lightswitchy or will get people who dislike the character to warm to her, but oh well. 

[johntfs]

7 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I would have expected a cameo from at least a Voyager actor -- Jeri Ryan and Tim Russ were both in the final season of Picard, and I feel like they could relatively easily get Picardo, or Dawson to do a quick line or two. 

I feel like there is a conscious decision to soften Mariner up. A group of fans have been put off by how disrespectful and anti-Starfleet she was originally, and how she was condescending toward Boimler in particular. The amount of whining she did left for some people an open question as to: well if you hate Starfleet so much, why not GTFO? 

The answer is that despite her mommy issues, her issues with authority/bureaucracy, her PTSD, self-sabotaging behavior and/or other mental health issues, she actually likes Starfleet. I don't know if the reveal of this will seem too lightswitchy or will get people who dislike the character to warm to her, but oh well. 

None of that seems out of character.  Even back in the first parts of the first season when Mariner was her most... Mariner, she liked going new places, learning new things and meeting/helping new people.  She's just not a fan of Starfleet's occasionally rigid proceduralism - especially things like "Your people are dying of a plague that we could easily cure, but we won't because the Prime Directive says "Fuck you.""

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 minute ago, johntfs said:

None of that seems out of character.  Even back in the first parts of the first season when Mariner was her most... Mariner, she liked going new places, learning new things and meeting/helping new people.  She's just not a fan of Starfleet's occasionally rigid proceduralism - especially things like "Your people are dying of a plague that we could easily cure, but we won't because the Prime Directive says "Fuck you.""

I agree that it is easily reconcilable that Mariner has loved Starfleet while hating the narrow-mindedness of it. But I'm not the sort of fan who is bothered by Mariner, and it seems to me that the sort of fan who is actually bugged is pretty unfair and seething in their dislike of her.

So it's possible that they will stick to their impression of her as a undeserving malcontent, a Mary Sue or whatever label they want to put to her. Or they may accuse the powers that be of trying to walk back a mistake. Or any number of other reactions.

I probably shouldn't give them much more mind than noting that since it has only a minimal impact on my enjoyment of the show.

[Starchild]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I agree that it is easily reconcilable that Mariner has loved Starfleet while hating the narrow-mindedness of it. But I'm not the sort of fan who is bothered by Mariner, and it seems to me that the sort of fan who is actually bugged is pretty unfair and seething in their dislike of her.

So it's possible that they will stick to their impression of her as a undeserving malcontent, a Mary Sue or whatever label they want to put to her. Or they may accuse the powers that be of trying to walk back a mistake. Or any number of other reactions.

I probably shouldn't give them much more mind than noting that since it has only a minimal impact on my enjoyment of the show.

I'm one of those fans who hated her character because most of what she did boiled down to one thing: disrespect. And that's a pet peeve of mine because it's behind so much of what's wrong with the world. However, I will not stick with my initial discontent if she starts to treat people with more respect, like the rest of her friend group. 

 

On 9/8/2023 at 6:57 AM, marinw said:

Weird that there was no Kate Mulgrew cameo.

I was waiting for that too lol.

VOY is in my top 3 of Trek series (along with TOS and DS9), so this was a great episode in my opinion.

Janeway is also my favourite captain, although Pike has rapidly reached second place. Interestingly, the thing these two have in common that puts them at the top of my list is their tendency to create a warm, family-like atmosphere for their crew. Even Janeway's hologram did that on Prodigy.

[Quickbeam]

On 9/7/2023 at 8:26 PM, wanderingstar said:

Ransom: Shaka, when the walls fell.

Kayshon: Sukath, his eyes uncovered.

I legit cackled.

OMG, that was made of win. 

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I agree that it is easily reconcilable that Mariner has loved Starfleet while hating the narrow-mindedness of it. But I'm not the sort of fan who is bothered by Mariner, and it seems to me that the sort of fan who is actually bugged is pretty unfair and seething in their dislike of her.

So it's possible that they will stick to their impression of her as a undeserving malcontent, a Mary Sue or whatever label they want to put to her. Or they may accuse the powers that be of trying to walk back a mistake. Or any number of other reactions.

I probably shouldn't give them much more mind than noting that since it has only a minimal impact on my enjoyment of the show.

Starfleet tolerates a lot, but it was easy to hate Mariner because she was a too cool for school type who got away with shenanigans that would have gotten anyone else canned because hey, nepotism!  The other nepo kids aren't exactly popular with the fandom either.

Plus Starfleet isn't exactly a mystery.  They ARE a military organization that enforces a hierarchy and rules, especially after the trauma of the Dominion War, Borg, etc.  Anyone who can't tolerate that shouldn't join, then bitch about it afterwards.  There are plenty of non-Starfleet ways to get into space.

[johntfs]

5 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Starfleet tolerates a lot, but it was easy to hate Mariner because she was a too cool for school type who got away with shenanigans that would have gotten anyone else canned because hey, nepotism!  The other nepo kids aren't exactly popular with the fandom either.

Plus Starfleet isn't exactly a mystery.  They ARE a military organization that enforces a hierarchy and rules, especially after the trauma of the Dominion War, Borg, etc.  Anyone who can't tolerate that shouldn't join, then bitch about it afterwards.  There are plenty of non-Starfleet ways to get into space.

Yeah, but there's the flip side of nepotism in terms of family expectations.  Mariner's mother is a Starfleet captain.  Her father is a Starfleet admiral.  Think about what little kid Mariner's life must have been like.  Figure Starfleet was shoved down her throat and in her ears at all times.  She probably got a parental career plan to take her from Cadet to Admiral at age eight.  I don't think Mariner was ever really rebelling against Starfleet so much as against others' attempts to carve her into a Starfleet shaped peg to fit into their Starfleet shaped hole.

[greekmom]

18 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

The answer is that despite her mommy issues, her issues with authority/bureaucracy, her PTSD, self-sabotaging behavior and/or other mental health issues, she actually likes Starfleet. I don't know if the reveal of this will seem too lightswitchy or will get people who dislike the character to warm to her, but oh well. 

Sorry maybe i missed it but what PTSD?

I honestly would have liked a Harry Kim or Paris cameo than a Janeway.  Don't get me wrong Janeway is my favourite captain (with Picard coming in close second) but I felt that Harry got the short end of the stick in Voyager and we all could have used an update at him being Captain.

[baldryanr]

12 hours ago, johntfs said:

Yeah, but there's the flip side of nepotism in terms of family expectations.  Mariner's mother is a Starfleet captain.  Her father is a Starfleet admiral.  Think about what little kid Mariner's life must have been like.  Figure Starfleet was shoved down her throat and in her ears at all times.  She probably got a parental career plan to take her from Cadet to Admiral at age eight.  I don't think Mariner was ever really rebelling against Starfleet so much as against others' attempts to carve her into a Starfleet shaped peg to fit into their Starfleet shaped hole.

Sure, but that's how you end up with a Tom Paris who ends up washing out of Starfleet and getting the stink-eye from other officers.  Tom is what Mariner should really be - yeah, he's looser with the rules and might occasionally break them for what he thinks is the right reason, but he's not going to be blatantly insubordinate all the time.  Plus when he did hang out with green by-the-book ensigns like Harry he got him to loosen up without leading him astray.

[Zaffy]

That was so much fun!
Was I the only one that after watching he crossover with Strange New Worlds, that I kept bringing in my mind Boimler and Mariner in their human/actors forms?

Also that spaceship at the end with the Klingons.. was that from the Fifth Element? It strongly reminded me of something but I can't remember from which TV or movie.

Edited September 10, 2023 by Zaffy

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, Zaffy said:

That was so much fun!
Was I the only one that after watching he crossover with Strange New Worlds, that I kept bringing in my mind Boimler and Mariner in their human/actors forms?

Also that spaceship at the end with the Klingons.. was that from the Fifth Element? It strongly reminded me of something but I can't remember from which TV or movie.

Yeah, I can't figure it out, either. We'll see ot again. 

[Affogato]

On 9/9/2023 at 1:50 AM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Been a while since I watched Tuvix, but there was no guarantee that the procedure would work to bring Neelix and Tuvok as separate individuals, whereas there was as far as we know 100 percent of Tuvix living a long natural life and the ship profiting from the combined wit, wisdom and experience of both of them. I don't think it would seem like the right call if it meant that neither Tuvok, Neelix or Tuvix survived.

Tuvix was a real MarySue character, which was kind of funny.

Surgery is like that. It may seem like the right decision to try a kidney transplant, but not if the patient dies on the table from a reaction to the anesthesia. You don't know until it is too late, though.

[Affogato]

My impression is that Mariner hasn't decided what she wants to do when she grows up. Ransom is forcing the issue, if she responds (we've seen signs she may be ready to move into a more responsible role) she may become less 'annoying'. So far I see her as behaving like a perpetual intern. She is allowed to mess with things above her paygrade and say things most people in actual jobs wouldn't say to their bosses, but ultimately she is just passing through/not part of the heirarchy. If that makes any sense. It is probably how she acted as a child, on her parents commands.

[marinw]

LD and the odd episode of SNW are the only Trek Shows I feel the need to rewatch.

Dawnn Lewis has a great voice.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 9/9/2023 at 7:32 PM, greekmom said:

Sorry maybe i missed it but what PTSD?

In S1'a Cupid's Errant Arrow, she talked about how she's seen some things and had a flashback to when she was assigned to the Quito and visiting DS9 and had her best friend Angie murdered by a shapechanger. Struck me that was the tip of an iceberg.

[Chicago Redshirt]

14 hours ago, baldryanr said:

Sure, but that's how you end up with a Tom Paris who ends up washing out of Starfleet and getting the stink-eye from other officers.  Tom is what Mariner should really be - yeah, he's looser with the rules and might occasionally break them for what he thinks is the right reason, but he's not going to be blatantly insubordinate all the time.  Plus when he did hang out with green by-the-book ensigns like Harry he got him to loosen up without leading him astray.

I think Mariner really is similar to Tom Paris, except exaggerated for comic effect, and of course, it's harder to be insubordinate in Tom's situation where a) you have a pretty good boss in Janeway 99 percent of the time b) you're more in a life-and-death set of situations that don't give you as many options to rebel as Mariner has c) the parental figure against whom the rebellion is taking place isn't right there, unlike Mariner's situation. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 9/9/2023 at 1:16 PM, baldryanr said:

Starfleet tolerates a lot, but it was easy to hate Mariner because she was a too cool for school type who got away with shenanigans that would have gotten anyone else canned because hey, nepotism!  The other nepo kids aren't exactly popular with the fandom either.

Plus Starfleet isn't exactly a mystery.  They ARE a military organization that enforces a hierarchy and rules, especially after the trauma of the Dominion War, Borg, etc.  Anyone who can't tolerate that shouldn't join, then bitch about it afterwards.  There are plenty of non-Starfleet ways to get into space.

We don't know much about her discipline prior to the Cerritos or if nepotism explicitly saved her or not in her previous pattern of rebellion, or if it was implied, or if she just got the second (and third and tenth) chances it seems Starfleet gives people from time to time. Remember the ensigns that showboated their way into causing an accidental death in TNG's The First Duty? At least Sito Jaxa, who has no family clout almost by definition as Bajorans are as far as we know relatively new to Starfleet, was forgiven enough to continue  with Starfleet and to get posted not just to any ship but the flagship. Barclay's performance was notably subpar throughout TNG and yet he never was demoted or transferred for the length of the series. We didn't spend a ton of time with screwups in TNG/DS9/VOY, but my sense at least is that 24th Century Starfleet is going to be reluctant to kick anybody out of the service who has not committed criminal conduct against people, rather than violated lesser rules of the sort that we know Mariner has (such as possessing contraband or skirting regulations).

What we do know from what is shown on Lower Decks is mostly the opposite of nepotism. Until the end of S1, literally only Freeman and Mariner know that they are mother and daughter. as preposterous as that is to contemplate. So how Ransom and the rest treat Mariner for the first  season s not dictated by her being a nepo-baby because they are ignorant of that fact. There is a brief period in S2 where people on knowing about the mother-daughter relationship do kiss up to Mariner, but that has mostly fallen by the wayside. 

And Freeman herself is shown being secretly harsher against Mariner rather than coddling her. She assigns Boimler as a spy to see if she can catch Mariner doing any rules-breaking. She singles her out for shitty details wanting her to quit, and then when that doesn't work, she promotes her to shove super Starfleet protocolly stuff in her face hoping to make her quit. And ultimately Freeman had Mariner shipped to Starbase 80 because of insecurity and anger that was not justified.

[Starchild]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

At least Sito Jaxa, who has no family clout almost by definition as Bajorans are as far as we know relatively new to Starfleet, was forgiven enough to continue  with Starfleet and to get posted not just to any ship but the flagship. Barclay's performance was notably subpar throughout TNG and yet he never was demoted or transferred for the length of the series.

It's a little different. These were people who made significant errors (once or ongoing), but were respectful and pledged to do better.

Marriner is super-competent but highly disrespectful to her superior officers. There's only so long an organization would typically tolerate behaviour like that. Perhaps that inflection point has coincided with her family relationships (not just Captain Mother but also Admiral Dad) becoming common knowledge, and now she's getting additional leway rather than getting drummed out.

But also now, Ransom has made it his personal mission to help her fit better without compromising her creativity, so good on him, and good luck to him.

[Chicago Redshirt]

9 minutes ago, Starchild said:

It's a little different. These were people who made significant errors (once or ongoing), but were respectful and pledged to do better.

Marriner is super-competent but highly disrespectful to her superior officers. There's only so long an organization would typically tolerate behaviour like that. Perhaps that inflection point has coincided with her family relationships (not just Captain Mother but also Admiral Dad) becoming common knowledge, and now she's getting additional leway rather than getting drummed out.

But also now, Ransom has made it his personal mission to help her fit better without compromising her creativity, so good on him, and good luck to him.

Mileage will vary, but if there is a distinction to be made here putting aside nepotism between a constant low-level screwup like Barclay, a cadet who made two major screwups that cost someone's life like Sito, and a super-competent but toeing the line between insubordination and getting the job done at the end of the day like Mariner, I'd lean in favor of the person who is a pain but gets the job done over the marginal person or the person who has screwed enough to cause a death.

[johntfs]

14 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I think Mariner really is similar to Tom Paris, except exaggerated for comic effect, and of course, it's harder to be insubordinate in Tom's situation where a) you have a pretty good boss in Janeway 99 percent of the time b) you're more in a life-and-death set of situations that don't give you as many options to rebel as Mariner has c) the parental figure against whom the rebellion is taking place isn't right there, unlike Mariner's situation. 

Also, as this episode notes, Janeway will straight-up murder people.

[Chicago Redshirt]

21 minutes ago, johntfs said:

Also, as this episode notes, Janeway will straight-up murder people.

That would be the 1 percent of the time. :)

[baldryanr]

4 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Mileage will vary, but if there is a distinction to be made here putting aside nepotism between a constant low-level screwup like Barclay, a cadet who made two major screwups that cost someone's life like Sito, and a super-competent but toeing the line between insubordination and getting the job done at the end of the day like Mariner, I'd lean in favor of the person who is a pain but gets the job done over the marginal person or the person who has screwed enough to cause a death.

Except that would have been a mistake too because Barclay wasn't some middling engineer, he was incredibly talented but allowed his social anxiety to mask his ability. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

49 minutes ago, baldryanr said:

Except that would have been a mistake too because Barclay wasn't some middling engineer, he was incredibly talented but allowed his social anxiety to mask his ability. 

I'm not sure that TNG ever showed Barclay to be "incredibly talented" overall; VOY showed him to have been clever enough to come up with a solution to get in and remain in touch with VOY despite the distance, but that was a function of his social issues too as I recall.

In any event, I tend to think that TNG-Starfleet would err on the side of giving near-infinite chances to anybody, no matter the nature of their screwup or its outcome. Maybe I'm thinking of them as way softer than they actually are. But I'm pretty sure that if a 21st century company had the equivalent of Barclay's situation in "Hollow Pursuits" happen where a dreamer who was already facing discipline were revealed to have created an elaborate fanfic/movie that featured making fun of the bosses and had one of the women scantily dressed drooling all over him, that guy would be as fired as fired can be.

[baldryanr]

20 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

But I'm pretty sure that if a 21st century company had the equivalent of Barclay's situation in "Hollow Pursuits" happen where a dreamer who was already facing discipline were revealed to have created an elaborate fanfic/movie that featured making fun of the bosses and had one of the women scantily dressed drooling all over him, that guy would be as fired as fired can be.

They'd nail him for neglecting his duties, but no way they could officially nail him for his holofantasy.  It'd be like if someone wrote a fanfic and photoshopped their colleagues, but kept everything on their personal computer at home.  That, in and of itself, isn't a valid reason to fire someone.

But anyway, someone serving on the Enterprise likely gets some benefit of the doubt because that's the most prestigious posting in the fleet - it's less likely to get the mediocre.

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 hour ago, baldryanr said:

They'd nail him for neglecting his duties, but no way they could officially nail him for his holofantasy.  It'd be like if someone wrote a fanfic and photoshopped their colleagues, but kept everything on their personal computer at home.  That, in and of itself, isn't a valid reason to fire someone.

But anyway, someone serving on the Enterprise likely gets some benefit of the doubt because that's the most prestigious posting in the fleet - it's less likely to get the mediocre.

I don't do employment law, but I'm pretty sure that even though the information was created off duty, once it became widely known at work that it existed, it could be construed as creating a hostile work environment to allow someone to maintain an equivalent set of fantasies about someone as Barclay had about Troi.

It's important that Barclay didn't have this on his "personal computer at home." He had it on the work mainframe, where as the episode showed, various people could access it. I would tend to think that even if he created his own private Troi hologram to fawn over him that wasn't publicly accessible, it quite possibly would lead to discipline up to firing for as marginal an employee as he was.

[Cattoy]

I know my issue with Mariner is that she joined Star Fleet willingly. She knew what it was going to be like better than most people. It's been long established that getting into Star Fleet Academy isn't easy. Getting assigned to something other than Starbase 80 is a privilege. She's taking the place of someone who wants to be there. And she doesn't care that she's prevented someone who actually wanted to join from being there.

I've only seen bits and pieces of Voyager, but I recognized all the throwbacks. Maybe that's why I never cared for it too much - I've seen the worst episodes.

Definitely glad the gang got promoted! I was afraid the show would keep them stuck as ensigns for the entire run of the series. I can't imagine watching an entire cast of Ensign Kims would be much fun in the long run.

[marinw]

How would T'Lyn know what Borg smells like?

[Dr Spengler]

On 9/21/2023 at 8:55 AM, marinw said:

How would T'Lyn know what Borg smells like?

"Sounds and Smells of Federation Foes" is an elective at Starfleet Academy.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 9/21/2023 at 7:55 AM, marinw said:

How woul know what Borg smells like?

Although doubtful, it's possible that T'Lyn has had a firsthand encounter with the Borg, or a Borg.

We do know from a previous season of LD that there are holodeck scenarios programmed with Borg (Boimler kept running a scenario to try to perfect score it), so that may have given her knowledge.

Finally, she could have just read up on previous encounters with the Borg, and the survivors described how Borg smell. I would imagine that there would be a lot written by the TNG crew about their encounters with the Borg that would be available to members of the general public and even more to Starfleet officers.

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 9/17/2023 at 5:47 PM, Cattoy said:

I know my issue with Mariner is that she joined Star Fleet willingly. She knew what it was going to be like better than most people. It's been long established that getting into Star Fleet Academy isn't easy. Getting assigned to something other than Starbase 80 is a privilege. She's taking the place of someone who wants to be there. And she doesn't care that she's prevented someone who actually wanted to join from being there.

I've only seen bits and pieces of Voyager, but I recognized all the throwbacks. Maybe that's why I never cared for it too much - I've seen the worst episodes.

Definitely glad the gang got promoted! I was afraid the show would keep them stuck as ensigns for the entire run of the series. I can't imagine watching an entire cast of Ensign Kims would be much fun in the long run.

I would first say that given the utopian nature of the Federation, it's certainly not the given that Mariner's presence in either the Academy or Starfleet prevented anyone who wanted to join either and was qualified to do so from joining.

In our present, there are economic constraints and ideological constraints that prevent people from pursuing any given dream. In the Star Trek future, those have largely been removed. 

In any case, I think the show has made clear prior to this episode that Mariner was eager and ambitious when she was in Starfleet Academy. Her Academy classmate remembers her as such. So even if we were to operate under the notion that there are only limited placements at the Academy, Mariner wanted to be there back then.

It's also been clear that somehow she got jaded/frightened/experienced some things, and that contributed to her issues about promotion and Starfleet.

Yet at the same time she has criticized Starfleet, she has made clear that she values most aspects of it and wants to be there.

[marinw]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Finally, she could have just read up on previous encounters with the Borg, and the survivors described how Borg smell.

I always imagined them as musty and gross. 🤢 How would Borg even shower?

[Chicago Redshirt]

1 minute ago, marinw said:

I always imagined them as musty and gross. 🤢 How would Borg even shower?

Personal hygiene is irrelevant. :)

More seriously, since sonic showers are things, I imagine that if they thought such a thing would be useful, they could probably have a built-in device that would allow such a shower.

[marinw]

28 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

More seriously, since sonic showers are things, I imagine that if they thought such a thing would be useful, they could probably have a built-in device that would allow

Or they have something like that in their alcoves.

Edited December 28, 2023 by marinw

[vibeology]

On 12/28/2023 at 12:21 PM, marinw said:

Or they have something like that in their alcoves.

It would explain how Seven lived in a cargo bay for years instead of quarters with a bathroom.