S08.E02: Into The Dalek

[Llywela]

Could be he was just trying to be ironic with the color / gender swap:  "blue is for baby boys, pink is for baby girls, but I switched them!  Isn't that clever?"   [eye roll]

I think he was also trying to force a connection just so Clara would have a reason to mention Danny to Journey, by spotting the similarity of their unusual surnames.

[Unusual Suspect]

My classic Who fu is weak, so I'll ask: prior to Rory and Amy, have other companions flitted back and forth between adventures with the Doctor and having a "normal life"? Because this feels very new, and I'm not sure I like it. I feel that it was detrimental to the Ponds ... the Doctor conveniently left them so they could filter through the whole River thing without him.

 

As for Capaldi, I still haven't gotten a handle on him yet, so I will give it some time. It's weird how unsure of himself he is. I like the coldness of him, and the "she's my carer, she cares so I don't have to" was a great line.

[ganesh]

I think he is a good man but also a dangerous one as well. Maybe more so than his last two incarnations.

 

I forget who I was talking to, but they said that overall any version of the Doctor is 'chaotic good'; i.e., D&D classifications. He doesn't set out to do anything bad per se, but things end up quite the mess. I think the question he should be asking is "are my intentions good?"

 

I may be the only one here who didn't particularly like Mr. Pink. Not to say I DISliked him, it's just that every time we cut away to him and Clara awkwardly flirting I grumbled about being more interested in what the Doctor was doing.

 

I just didn't care. It's been less than 2 full episodes with the Doctor and we're already spending time with Clara at school. When they did the Pond's Home Life, Eleven had already been around for a while. 

[Llywela]

My classic Who fu is weak, so I'll ask: prior to Rory and Amy, have other companions flitted back and forth between adventures with the Doctor and having a "normal life"? Because this feels very new, and I'm not sure I like it. I feel that it was detrimental to the Ponds ... the Doctor conveniently left them so they could filter through the whole River thing without him.

The closest the classic series got was the UNIT era, when the Doctor was exiled on Earth and worked out of UNIT. And even then there was quite a bit of variety - for a man in exile who was meant to be earthbound, the Doctor still managed to get about quite a bit. His companions/allies were getting on with their own lives around their adventures with him during that period, because that was the set-up. Then when his exile was rescinded he began to travel again, but continued to operate out of UNIT as a base for a while, so both Jo Grant and Sarah Jane Smith had a bit of a part-time gig going on for a while, going off for travels and then returning home for a bit before travelling again, although in Sarah's case her 'journey', as we'd call it today, saw her drifting further and further from her life on Earth as the Doctor's connection with UNIT gradually faded. He didn't so much leave as sort of gradually stopped going back, going off for longer and longer at a stretch. It was only after leaving Sarah that he finally stopped going back there at all.

 

So in season 11 Sarah was part-time adventuring, getting on with her work as a journalist in between trips, so the season kind of alternates between trips in the TARDIS and adventures on home turf. In season 12 she and Harry both go off with the Doctor post-regeneration and then they all get separated from the TARDIS for the entire season, so don't return to Earth at all - it's the longest stretch of travel without returning to Earth since the 2nd Doctor era. Then the Brigadier summons them back to Earth for an adventure, after which Harry stays behind. Through season 13 there are a couple of returns to Earth, but Sarah by this point is basically living aboard the TARDIS and those returns to Earth are pretty much just visits rather than spending quality time getting on with her life there - she's no longer the career-focused journalist but has become a free-spirited traveller. The Doctor does have to wheedle her back aboard a couple of times early in the season, but that's pretty much a game they've been playing since they first met - she makes noises about having work/life to get on with and he talks her around, both of them knowing that she wants to come really (it's a harder choice for her to make than Clara/Amy because she knows he won't return her to the same day that she left - they always return to find that months have passed). That's what makes it so painful when he finally does leave her behind, early in season 14 - at the end of Hand of Fear she makes a fuss about wanting to go home and take a break, but she doesn't expect it to be a permanent break, it's just the pattern of their relationship, she fully expects him to either talk her around or take her home for a visit to recharge the batteries and then be off again. But he gets the call from Gallifrey, doesn't think he can take a human with him (although he takes Leela only a season later) and that's that, Sarah is left behind. And his connection with that place and time is broken, he never goes back.

 

So, yeah, that was how the classic series handled part-time adventuring. It was during a very specific era and there was a story-based reason for the Doctor to keep returning to that place and time. Most of the time, companions had to make a choice: stay or go, and there was dramatic tension in that choice because it had to be either/or. Heck, for the first decade of the show, there was extra tension in the choice because the Doctor couldn't have returned them home again if he tried! He couldn't steer the TARDIS. His steering remained erratic, but from the Pertwee years on he did generally manage to return to home base when he tried. Albeit without very much precision - he couldn't hit a specific date if he tried. And even during the 'part-time' UNIT era, it wasn't part-time in the modern sense of the Doctor dropping his companions home and then going off to have adventures without them before coming back to pick them up. When he brought them back to Earth, he stayed there too, pottering around working at UNIT, and then when he went off on his next jaunt, he took his companions with him. As soon as he did go off on his own without taking a companion from that era, that was when he stopped going back - which is why it feels so out of character to me that the 11th/12th are adventuring alone and then going back to pick up the companion, without having met and been distracted by someone new in the meantime.

Edited September 3, 2014 by Llywela

[alias1]

mac123x, you could be right.  That's just the kind of thing that makes Moffat think he's brilliant.  And I have a feeling he will continue to hit us over the head with it somehow.

[mac123x]

I think we should be alert for characters with other color names, it might be part of the Missy arc somehow.  If he was really clever he'd use names that are colors in other languages to try to throw people off, like Blanc or Verde.

 

Maybe its a giant game of clue.  "I accuse Mr. Green, in the library, with the candlestick".

[tv-talk]

Not sure if this has been said, and not to toot my own horn, but that scene where the Doctor was flippant about the guy being turned into goo was exactly what I'd hoped for when referencing "Pyramids of Mars" before the Capaldi premiere. The Doctor doesnt actually care all that much that someone was killed and comes off as somewhat monstrous. What I think was a real shame is they didnt have Clara play it more similar to Sarry Jane when reacting to the Doctor's attitude. SJ was horrified that 4 didnt care "a man has just died" and you could see she was questioning what the hell was up with the Doctor. However of course here, Clara always has to have the supreme upper hand at every moment and surely cannot possibly be nervous about the Doctor or his intentions, so instead we just got Blue reacting while Clara kind of didnt care either or made some flippant remark about Doctor to calm situation. Opportunity lost. Clara sucks because she is supposed to be so amazing in all ways, that is boring and lame....hopefully not a Moffet reaction to all the misogynism talk. The Doctor is a fricking 2,000yr old alien flitting around time and space almost casually destroying worlds and timelines at various stages....Clara SHOULD be nervous about him right now, ESPECIALLY in this new form. Instead this school teacher can control every aspect of their interactions, always has the upper hand, actually slaps the Doctor, then hops out of TARDIS for a date like nothing has really happened. Sorry, but her character has to go, ship has sailed on it and they arent going to improve her.

 

Overall I like this Doctor well enough so far and he definitely is the clear return of Tom Baker's influence on the role which I hope we will continue to see as Capaldi makes the role his own.

 

As for the actual episode itself though.....afraid I may have liked it more for watching the new Doc and trying to read him rather than for the story itself. 

Edited September 3, 2014 by tv-talk

[Meredith Quill]

I forget who I was talking to, but they said that overall any version of the Doctor is 'chaotic good'; i.e., D&D classifications. He doesn't set out to do anything bad per se, but things end up quite the mess. I think the question he should be asking is "are my intentions good?"

 

I just didn't care. It's been less than 2 full episodes with the Doctor and we're already spending time with Clara at school. When they did the Pond's Home Life, Eleven had already been around for a while. 

 

As the phrase goes, the road to hell is paved with 'good intentions'...

 

Perhaps the question ought to be "Do my good works outweigh any bad?"

[tv-talk]

I just didn't care. It's been less than 2 full episodes with the Doctor and we're already spending time with Clara at school.

 

 

So true! Stay away from the school and the banalities of Clara's work/love life! And DONT YOU FRICKING DARE have the principal turn out to be Slitheen!!

[miles2go]

I don't really mind time spent in Clara's mundane life, as I figure it's all a set up for something else.  At least, I hope so.  The question, of course, is whether the "set up " is for something worthwhile.  Same goes for the Scary Poppins business.

[supposebly]

The only reason I would be interested in Clara's work life is if Anthony Head came back as that...well whatever that was......He was wonderful.

 

No reason to like Danny except that he is hot, which is not a character trait, so meh again.

A soldier? It seems being a soldier is the theme this season and if I had any confidence in Moffat following through on a topic of PTSD for example, I'd be excited. As it is, I don't, so I'm not.

 

As for the Doctor, as with the others, I wait and see. I liked them all in the end (NuWho), so at least I'll give him half a season until I make up my mind.

[aliya]

Plus it looks like another season where the Doctor moralizes at me about who's good and who's evil. Just get out of my face with that, eh?

Yes. Maybe that's my problem with the show.

[benteen]

The only way I would be pleased with the continued focus on Coal Hill is if it meant the return of Ian Chesteron!  Then I would be more than happy to spend some time here.  That's never going to happen so...

[miles2go]

The only way I would be pleased with the continued focus on Coal Hill is if it meant the return of Ian Chesteron!  Then I would be more than happy to spend some time here.  That's never going to happen so...

Well, it might happen, if William Russell is up to playing the part again.  He'd be a retired Coal Hill teacher, attending a reunion party, or something of the sort.  Well, yeah, probably not going to happen, but I can dream, can't I?

[Llywela]

Not sure if this has been said, and not to toot my own horn, but that scene where the Doctor was flippant about the guy being turned into goo was exactly what I'd hoped for when referencing "Pyramids of Mars" before the Capaldi premiere. The Doctor doesnt actually care all that much that someone was killed and comes off as somewhat monstrous. What I think was a real shame is they didnt have Clara play it more similar to Sarry Jane when reacting to the Doctor's attitude. SJ was horrified that 4 didnt care "a man has just died" and you could see she was questioning what the hell was up with the Doctor.

Although of course the point of that scene in Pyramids of Mars wasn't that the Doctor didn't care - he makes it quite clear to Sarah that he is simply focused utterly on the big picture. He barely notices the death of this one ally because he is painfully aware that unless they resolve the crisis soon, millions more will die. He is utterly detached, it's a moment that well and truly drives home his alien nature, but it isn't about not caring. It's about caring for the big picture more than the little picture.

 

Just as in this situation, it isn't that the Doctor doesn't care. It just drives home his alien nature and emotional detachment, that he is pragmatic enough to write off this one person as unsalvageable in hopes of saving the rest. He gave Ross false hope - was that cruel? Or was it a kindness to allow him to hope in his final seconds?

 

I do agree about Clara always having to be shown as right. It's one of the reasons I struggle to like the character. She's Mary Poppins, practically perfect in every way - crafted as an ideal, 'the perfect companion', rather than as a person. Even her flaws have to be cute rather than, you know, actual flaws.

[tv-talk]

Just as in this situation, it isn't that the Doctor doesn't care.

 

 

Capadli actually makes light of the man's death with that comment about him being the top layer....I would say that is fairly callous and that in a sense he didnt care although yes I agree that overall in both instances he was focusing on the larger picture. 

[Llywela]

Capadli actually makes light of the man's death with that comment about him being the top layer....I would say that is fairly callous and that in a sense he didnt care although yes I agree that overall in both instances he was focusing on the larger picture. 

Well, the use of black humour and caring are not mutually exclusive. ;) This is not a touchy-feely Doctor who cares much about the feelings of the people around him, that's for sure!

[proserpina65]

I have to say, although there were moments I liked, and I'm still totally on board with Capaldi's portrayal (me, I like a darker, more crotchety Doctor now and then), overall this episode left me going 'eh'.  Too much Clara, not enough Doctor, Dolorous Edd got killed off too soon, and the only way I want to see more of Coal Hill School is if Ian Chesterton shows up, preferably with his SO Barbara in tow.  (Yes, I totally pictured them ending up together after the First Doctor returned them to London.)  I loved the season premiere and next week's episode looks promising, but I was totally underwhelmed with this ep.

[benteen]

Well, it might happen, if William Russell is up to playing the part again.  He'd be a retired Coal Hill teacher, attending a reunion party, or something of the sort.  Well, yeah, probably not going to happen, but I can dream, can't I?

 

An Easter egg in the beginning of Day of the Doctor lists I. Chesteron as "Chairman of the Governors" so he does still have some kind of a presence at the school.  Yeah, it's very unlikely we'd ever see him but if that's how the Coal Hill stuff paid off, it would be worth it.

[Llywela]

he only way I want to see more of Coal Hill School is if Ian Chesterton shows up, preferably with his SO Barbara in tow.  (Yes, I totally pictured them ending up together after the First Doctor returned them to London.)

Well, the Sarah Jane Adventures tells us that they are married, so...(it also hints that they haven't aged since the '60s, but we can write that off as Chinese whispers, Sarah heard a rumour rather than a fact)

 

Alas, the sad loss of Jacqueline Hill means we can't have Barbara back, but I so desperately want a William Russell cameo as Ian. I wanted it for the anniversary, really - perfect opportunity for a spot of reflection on the Doctor's part, I thought, looking back over his many lives to where it all began, and I really wanted to see the baby-faced 11th Doctor encounter the aged Ian Chesterton and call him 'dear boy' one last time. Alas that was not to be, but even a teeny cameo would be perfect! Russ is still working, but he'll be 90 this year...

[wayne67]

I took forever to get around to watching this episode. I don't feel sad about not watching it sooner. The journey inside the Dalek made no sense. Either shoot the damn thing or let it go kill off some Daleks. Also it bugs me every time there is a resistance against the Daleks and they manage to have worse weapons than Mickey had from the AU version of Earth.

 

As for the Doctor splicing his consciousness with a Dalek. How did he expect that to actually make the Dalek friendly ? The Doctor has waged war for 800 years apparently in Trenzalore against dozens of his enemies. It's not like he's full of peace and light and warm fuzzy feelings. 

 

The Doctor was oddly callous about Blue's brothers death and her concern over the fallen soldier. It made it hard to understand why that soldier sacrificed her life for his half baked plan or why Blue wanted to come with him at all. If Blue was such a soldier's soldier she would have followed orders to blast the Dalek and not even thought about running off with a weirdo with a blue box. 

 

Clara was bland and that whole exchange with Pink was more awkward than it was cute or amusing or romantic.

[alias1]

I did a re-watch tonight before the new episode aired and I liked it better than I did last week.  I'm really warming to the new grumpy Doctor.  I'm not sure I caught this last week, but when Journey Blue first walked out of the Tardis she said, "it's smaller on the outside" and the Doctor said "it's a bit more exciting when you go the other way."  I love his deadpan delivery.

[Guest]

I re-watched as well and found myself liking it even more than I did the first time. I like the increased focus on Clara's home life. The new soldier / the Dalek storyline might have fit in a little bit too obviously but it felt mostly organic so I didn't mind. In fact, I would like it if her eventual exit storyline won't be something grandiose like we've had with Rose, Donna and Amy, but something more Martha-like. I can see Clara saying 'I like travelling but I need stability and I feel like there's no continuity in my real life'. Remember that the companions are ageing even though they're dropped back 20 seconds after they left and that's bound to take a toll. 

 

I like this doctor much better than Matt Smith. It feels like he's old and had gravitas and he fills a fatherly role in Clara's life as opposed to the romantic one that I felt was more default with Smith. I agree that the line 'she cares so I don't have to' was the line of the night. 

The journey inside the Dalek was well-executed in concept. Seeing things like anti-bodies, repressed memories and the place the people the Daleks exterminate go to was interesting in a vaguely anatomical way. I also like that the first half of the journey inside the Dalek felt like an old video-game (bad guys chasing good guys). 

 

Edited October 6, 2014 by lovedwallflower

[Enigma X]

Wrong thread...moving post.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Enigma X