Chit-Chat: What's On Your Mind Today?

[SoMuchTV]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

Rent or own?

 

1 hour ago, Ancaster said:

Rent.  Pacific Northwest, nice building but not anything particularly extravagant or "desirable", just a decent place in a good area where I'm going to have to follow up where I wish I didn't have to in the first pace.

Okay, now I have to ask. Are there places where you can own an apartment? In my experience, apartment=rent. If you owned that space, it would be a condo or coop. But my rental experience is fairly limited. 

[shapeshifter]

9 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

Okay, now I have to ask. Are there places where you can own an apartment? In my experience, apartment=rent. If you owned that space, it would be a condo or coop. But my rental experience is fairly limited. 

The only place I've ever owned is my current condo, which I've noticed some of the owners refer to as their "apartment."
It might be a local/geographically-specific meaning for "apartment."
I'm in Rochester NY.
I too previously thought "apartment" only applied to a rented home (renting in California and Illinois). 
We do have shared indoor hallways and garages. 
They are physically very much like apartments I've rented.

My daughter in NYC refers to her apartment as her "house." 🙃

Edited January 26 by shapeshifter

[Ancaster]

 

18 hours ago, SoMuchTV said:

 

Okay, now I have to ask. Are there places where you can own an apartment? In my experience, apartment=rent. If you owned that space, it would be a condo or coop. But my rental experience is fairly limited. 

My former parents-in-law "owned" a place in Co-op City, The Bronx, bought when it was supposed to be the next new thing.  That turned out to be a terrible investment.  I have had chickens that have done better in coops.  (I'm kidding, but there's a lot of bitterness in the family about Co-op City, so dark humor is my default here.)

Edited January 26 by Ancaster

[SoMuchTV]

16 minutes ago, Ancaster said:

 

My former parents-in-law "owned" a place in Co-op City, The Bronx, bought when it was supposed to be the next new thing.  That turned out to be a terrible investment.  I have had chickens that have done better in coops.  (I'm kidding, but there's a lot of bitterness in the family about Co-op City, so black humor is my default here.)

I think you’re confirming my original thought - you rent an apartment, you buy a co-op. But maybe in an apartment building that’s been turned into a co-op, people still refer to them as apartments? Anyway, if it were possible to go off topic in a chitchat thread, I think I’ve accomplished that here. 

[annzeepark914]

2 hours ago, Ancaster said:

 

My former parents-in-law "owned" a place in Co-op City, The Bronx, bought when it was supposed to be the next new thing.  That turned out to be a terrible investment.  I have had chickens that have done better in coops.  (I'm kidding, but there's a lot of bitterness in the family about Co-op City, so black humor is my default here.)

I remember driving past Co-op City on one of the parkways (Hutchinson??) and always being amazed by the high rises. Chicken coop is a great comparison (& one I made about high rises with a gazillion apts, in NY & outside DC).

Edited January 26 by annzeepark914

[EtheltoTillie]

I live in a coop in Manhattan. We call our unit our apartment. 

Co-Op City is famous for being incredibly ugly and poorly constructed. It has a fascinating history if you want to read Wikipedia.  No wonder it was a poor investment for @Ancaster’s in-laws.  It was part of a government subsidized housing program for middle class people. It was never meant to be a real investment, but the shareholders are saddled with the costs of maintenance, as there is no landlord who owns it. There are a number of these types of coop projects around NYC. Many originally established by unions with idealistic goals. 
 

It was built on the site of a former amusement park, one I went to as a kid in the 60s. Called Freedomland. A low rent attempt at establishing a Disneyland type attraction. 

Edited January 26 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

Yes, @annzeepark914 it’s on the Hutch, and 95 on the other side. 

[EtheltoTillie]

I should say that Co-Op City was kind of a last hurrah for the infamous Robert Moses. This thesis I just found is quite interesting.  

 

Edited January 26 by EtheltoTillie

[Yeah No]

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

I live in a coop in Manhattan. We call our unit our apartment. 

Co-Op City is famous for being incredibly ugly and poorly constructed. It has a fascinating history if you want to read Wikipedia.  No wonder it was a poor investment for @Ancaster’s in-laws.  It was part of a government subsidized housing program for middle class people. It was never meant to be a real investment, but the shareholders are saddled with the costs of maintenance, as there is no landlord who owns it. There are a number of these types of coop projects around NYC. Many originally established by unions with idealistic goals. 

It was built on the site of a former amusement park, one I went to as a kid in the 60s. Called Freedomland. A low rent attempt at establishing a Disneyland type attraction. 

OMG, I remember Freedomland!  As a kid I was not happy it shut down.

My parents and I were aware of Co-op City when it went up but they were too savvy to fall for that and I didn't like it either.  Unfortunately a lot of people from the West Bronx moved there in droves, which only hastened the decline of the Bronx in general, like the horrible '70s and '80s when everything was burning down.  I knew several people that regretted moving there.

But it isn't just co-op developments in NYC but the many individual rental buildings that converted to co-op in the '80s, like my parent's building in the Kingsbridge/Riverdale area.  My father was the board president for many years there so I got to know a little too much about the pitfalls of a co-op as opposed to a condo. or private house.  And then I owned it for several years before my father's death.  When my father was president he wanted to make sure they didn't run up the maintenance fees while also having enough in the reserve fund to address maintenance without having to have special assessments all the time.  Their building ended up in good shape that way thanks to him.  Other buildings ended up with astronomical maintenance fees, many special assessments and nothing in the reserve fund.  But personally I think co-ops stink for many reasons, not to mention taxes.  It's amazing I made anything at all after selling the apartment after all the taxes were paid.  And not only do you have to pay taxes when selling it, but taxes are a part of the monthly maintenance fee too, a big part.  

We called our co-op an apartment too but I also remember people saying, "Come over to my house" even when living in an apartment so that was also used.

[Ancaster]

 

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

OMG, I remember Freedomland!  As a kid I was not happy it shut down.

My parents and I were aware of Co-op City when it went up but they were too savvy to fall for that and I didn't like it either.  Unfortunately a lot of people from the West Bronx moved there in droves, which only hastened the decline of the Bronx in general, like the horrible '70s and '80s when everything was burning down.  I knew several people that regretted moving there.

But it isn't just co-op developments in NYC but the many individual rental buildings that converted to co-op in the '80s, like my parent's building in the Kingsbridge/Riverdale area.  My father was the board president for many years there so I got to know a little too much about the pitfalls of a co-op as opposed to a condo. or private house.  And then I owned it for several years before my father's death.  When my father was president he wanted to make sure they didn't run up the maintenance fees while also having enough in the reserve fund to address maintenance without having to have special assessments all the time.  Their building ended up in good shape that way thanks to him.  Other buildings ended up with astronomical maintenance fees, many special assessments and nothing in the reserve fund.  But personally I think co-ops stink for many reasons, not to mention taxes.  It's amazing I made anything at all after selling the apartment after all the taxes were paid.  And not only do you have to pay taxes when selling it, but taxes are a part of the monthly maintenance fee too, a big part.  

We called our co-op an apartment too but I also remember people saying, "Come over to my house" even when living in an apartment so that was also used.

Good to know at least one person wasn't screwed by the whole co-op thing.

I have to ask though whether you needed to deal with decades' worth of stuff when you were finally done with the co-op.  I still have nightmares about the time I opened a closet and a cascade of too cheap to resist boxes of macaroni and cheese fell on top of me.

Edited January 26 by Ancaster

[EtheltoTillie]

I figured you would be familiar with Co-Op City, @Yeah No

[Yeah No]

5 hours ago, Ancaster said:

 

Good to know at least one person wasn't screwed by the whole co-op thing.

I have to ask though whether you needed to deal with decades' worth of stuff when you were finally done with the co-op.  I still have nightmares about the time I opened a closet and a cascade of too cheap to resist boxes of macaroni and cheese fell on top of me.

I did have to deal with that - 46 years of stuff.  There was wrapped meat in the freezer dated from the '90s in my mother's handwriting (she died in 2001, this was in 2020)!  I found a suitcase with all my baby shoes, soft toys and rattles and another with some clothing my mom sewed for me by hand.  I also found her wedding gown, which was unpreserved but in a plastic garment bag!  I never even knew that stuff was in there.  Of course I couldn't bear to throw that stuff out so now it sits in my garage (sigh).  I also found an old rifle my father had from when he was in the army (he was career army for 25 years from WWII onward).  I had to have a service handle that as I didn't want any part of it.

Also in a closet was a full size washing machine that my mother had hooked up before the co-op rules forbid it.  So it sat there for years unused.  I sold the apartment just about 20 years after my mother's death and a year after my father's death.  Over the years my father was very resistant to throwing her stuff out.  In that time I had gone through a lot of it, and taken what I wanted from it (like her fantastic cookware) but there was still a lot of stuff left to go through in the closets, which took us weeks to do.  I eventually had to have the service come and take what was leftover away including furniture.  It was very sad for me.

A big part of what was leftover were the many bookcases full of books.  I had gone through them many times over the years but there were just too many left to get rid of without help.   

One heartwarming story - My father was an avid audiophile and we found a couple of his old stereo receivers in a closet.  One classic Pioneer caught the eye of my husband's nephew, who took it and restored it to working condition himself.  I was so touched by that it brought me to tears.

[EtheltoTillie]

The problem with disposing of your parents' stuff is not limited to those who live in co-op apartments--whether subsidized or open market.  Same problem for rentals, condos and houses. 

[supposebly]

I'm quite grateful that I don't have much storage space in my condo. I'm also grateful that my temperament won't let me accumulate stuff (well, except cat toys, it's a sickness!). It stresses me out more having stuff than throwing out things that I think I might need. And then don't in 5 years. Overall, I'm not very sentimental about stuff. A mug from a friend, a picture from another. A collection of postcards. What I feel sentimental about could fit in a small box. 

Having said that, I have a whole drawer of screws and brackets left over from various furniture assemblies. I think, together with my clothes closet, that will become a victim of next spring's purge. I'm quite looking forward to that!

I don't have family here in Canada, so whoever will have to clean out my place should have an easy time of it. Assuming I won't change my habits in my old age.

55 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

The problem with disposing of your parents' stuff is not limited to those who live in co-op apartments--whether subsidized or open market.  Same problem for rentals, condos and houses. 

I would say it's worse with houses of any kind. More space.

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, supposebly said:

I'm quite grateful that I don't have much storage space in my condo. I'm also grateful that my temperament won't let me accumulate stuff (well, except cat toys, it's a sickness!). It stresses me out more having stuff than throwing out things that I think I might need. And then don't in 5 years. Overall, I'm not very sentimental about stuff. A mug from a friend, a picture from another. A collection of postcards. What I feel sentimental about could fit in a small box. 

Having said that, I have a whole drawer of screws and brackets left over from various furniture assemblies. I think, together with my clothes closet, that will become a victim of next spring's purge. I'm quite looking forward to that!

I don't have family here in Canada, so whoever will have to clean out my place should have an easy time of it. Assuming I won't change my habits in my old age.

I would say it's worse with houses of any kind. More space.

Yep. More space = more stuff.

[shapeshifter]

33 minutes ago, peacheslatour said:

Yep. More space = more stuff.

Probably 90% or more of the time, yes: More space = more stuff

But I've been in this 3-bd condo for over 2 years now and still have a lot of empty shelves and not much furniture. 

One of the bedrooms is just art supplies. 
At least those should be easy for my kids to get rid of. 
But, even though a lot of my work was lost, left behind, sold, bartered, or destroyed, there's still more than any of them will want to deal with. 

[Ancaster]

2 hours ago, supposebly said:

 

Having said that, I have a whole drawer of screws and brackets left over from various furniture assemblies. I think, together with my clothes closet, that will become a victim of next spring's purge. I'm quite looking forward to that!

 

No no!  Please don't throw out the drawerful of pieces of string too short to be useful or anything similar.

Edited January 26 by Ancaster

[peacheslatour]

1 hour ago, Ancaster said:

No no!  Please don't throw out the drawerful of pieces of string too short to be useful or anything similar.

How did my husband get on this board and why is he using Anacaster's handle?

[annzeepark914]

1 hour ago, peacheslatour said:

How did my husband get on this board and why is he using Anacaster's handle?

Too funny, pl 😁

[Kitty Redstone]

19 hours ago, Yeah No said:

But it isn't just co-op developments in NYC but the many individual rental buildings that converted to co-op in the '80s,

This was a storyline on Barney Miller when I was a kid. I didn't understand how the process worked then and still don't now, lol.

@Ancaster I hope your plumbing issue was fixed without too much stress! When our ancient water heater went out there was so much water streaming out from it (the shutoff valve didn't work). Our water bill for the next month was through the roof.

 

[nokat]

9 hours ago, Kitty Redstone said:

When our ancient water heater went out there was so much water streaming out from it (the shutoff valve didn't work). Our water bill for the next month was through the roof.

I had a sprinkler leak and I didn't know until a neighbor was knocking on my door. A high water bill that month.

[EtheltoTillie]

Barney Miller:

In the late 70s- early 80s, the rental buildings were being converted because the rent controlled rents were so low the landlords couldn't keep up the buildings. Most of them built in the 1920s.  Nice solid buildings but there was massive deferred maintenance.

  So they decided to try to sell the buildings to the tenants.  The rent controlled tenants could buy their apartments at reduced prices as an inducement to get the process going. They would then have an asset that could appreciate.   But the rent control tenants could not be evicted if they did not want to buy.  So the landlord would have to keep them on or sell their apartments to an investor who would have to keep them on at rent controlled rate and wait till they die off.  

I live in a building like this (built in 1925).  It was like winning the lottery if you lived in one of these buildings at the time.  Some of my neighbors bought their apartments in the 80s for little money.  Now they are dying off in their 90s and their children are selling them at high prices (they have to pay a flip tax--a portion of the sale--back to the co-op for use by continuing owners to keep up the building).  I bought one of the rent control apartments in 2003 from the original landlord, when the tenant finallly died after living there since 1940 or so.  I got it at a reduced price (but not the 1980s price) and had to renovate it.  It was a mess.  The landlord had never made any improvements within the apartment, except for putting in some 1960s kitchen fixtures. 

Over time as the buildings improved, prices rose.  And of course, the tenant owners now have to pay for the upkeep, but that is the price of ownership.  I think that is part of the underlying plot of the Barney Miller episode, but it seems to be unavailable to watch on any streaming service right now.  I looked it up on IMDB and I tried to watch.  I think the episode is titled "The Architect."

 

ETA:  no that is not the right episode.  Will keep looking. 

 

Edited January 27 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

Never mind

 

Edited January 27 by EtheltoTillie

[shapeshifter]

Barney Miller, S6 E20 “The Architect” should air on Antenna TV on Tuesday, February 13, 9 p.m. EST, if I counted correctly.

[EtheltoTillie]

13 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Barney Miller, S6 E20 “The Architect” should air on Antenna TV on Tuesday, February 13, 9 p.m. EST, if I counted correctly.

Thanks, Shapeshifter, but it turns out that is not the right episode.  I found YouTube links for Barney Miller.   The right episode is S6 E12 "People's Court."  I found it on YouTube and I'm watching it now.  Will summarize shortly.  I can see why @Kitty Redstone did not understand the co-op plot.  As usual it's a Hollywood mishmash of misinformation.  Stay tuned.

Edited January 27 by EtheltoTillie

[shapeshifter]

18 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

it turns out that is not the right episode.  I found YouTube links for Barney Miller.   The right episode is S6 E12 "People's Court." 

6.12 "People's Court" is definitely scheduled to air on Antenna TV on February 1, Thursday, at 9 p.m. EST.

Here's a recap from Tvtropes.org

[EtheltoTillie]

Summary of Barney Miller Episode "The People's Court."  1980. 

The co-op plot is the B plot.  It is not resolved in the episode.  It is left hanging. 

Barney learns his apartment is going condo.  First error:  NY apartments were largely converted to co-ops.  Condos were not a big thing here until later years when they began building new high rises and selling the apartments individually as condos.

Barney is told he has to buy the apartment or be evicted in 90 days.  A corporation has taken over.  Second error.  As I described above, in real life the landlords were selling the apartments directly to the tenants.  Evictions:  This was attempted at first but there was such hue and cry against it that the government set rules that made it impossible.  The rent control tenants had to be allowed to stay on.

Barney was offered the price of $137,000 for his apartment.  That would have been unheard of in the year 1980, when this was filmed.  The "insider" price would have been $30,000 or less.  That's why so many people did buy their apartments, the prices were so low.  My cousins bought houses in the NYC area for similar prices in those years. 

Final error:  No one gets evicted in 90 days.  Eviction process go on for years.

In the end, Barney is looking for a new apartment and Officer Levitt gives him the newspaper for new apartment listings.  It's the obituary section.  Ha Ha .  The best place to find vacant apartments.  Barney scoffs, but at the end he is looking at the paper.

Edited January 27 by EtheltoTillie

[Browncoat]

2 hours ago, nokat said:

I had a sprinkler leak and I didn't know until a neighbor was knocking on my door. A high water bill that month.

Last year, I had a pipe freeze and break, and the water bill was astronomical!  But I called the water authority, who looked up my past bills, and they were able to reduce the high bill by about 75%.  I mean, I still paid way more than usual, but I didn't have to pay the whole thing.  

[Yeah No]

On 1/26/2024 at 11:03 AM, supposebly said:

I would say it's worse with houses of any kind. More space.

It's amazing how much stuff was crammed into my parents' 1000 square foot apartment.  One friend said her father's entire house, which included an unattached garage full of stuff was less trouble than that and she came to help me on several occasions.  My parents were "collectors".  The thing is that they collected meaningful stuff, not just junk that you see on TV shows.  My mother also had taken in mementos from other deceased relatives and one was an avid photographer.  Plus there were files relevant to their army background and co-op sale to find.  So it took longer to go through even though there might have been less of it.  If I wasn't careful I'd throw out something valuable and I didn't want to risk that.

2 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Barney was offered the price of $137,000 for his apartment.  That would have been unheard of in the year 1980, when this was filmed.  The "insider" price would have been $30,000 or less.  That's why so many people did buy their apartments, the prices were so low.  My cousins bought houses in the NYC area for similar prices in those years. 

My parents' building was built in 1974 so there was no rent control on it (only the usual rent stabilization laws) but the owner wanted out anyway and it was the thing to do in the mid '80s.  My parents paid only $25,000 at the insider price for their apartment in 1985.  Then after my mother died in 2001 and my father lost 2 of his best friends in the same year he became worried that if something should happen to him I'd lose out.  So he signed the apartment over to me in 2005, meanwhile he died in 2020. 

I took out an equity line on it, also in 2005 and Chase had an appraisal done on it, but they refused to give me anything to show what it was worth because they said it was done for their own purposes, not mine.  I do remember the value the appraiser told my father it was worth but it was only word of mouth.  I have looked online for historical sales in the building and the only comparable apartment sold in 2012.  Most of the apts. in the building were 1 bedrooms and this one had 2 plus it was on the top floor which made it more desirable. 

The reason this is important is that I found out that in addition to the flip tax and all the other taxes I already paid there is a capital gains tax I owe that might have to be computed based on the market value of the apartment in 2005.  However, I have nothing in writing to show what it was worth.  Even the transfer of ownership only involved transferring his shares in the co-op to me.  The share value is not the same as market value and there was no cash transaction of any kind.  BTW, I am worried that I will have to pay an astronomical amount in taxes if it's computed this way.  It looks like this is treated like an investment property when it is not, which I think would be unfair.  But I really don't know.  The only other way I could be off the hook for a lot of money is if I could show that I lived there for 2 out of the last 5 years I owned it, which I can't because I didn't.  I wish someone would have told me about this before my father signed it over to me so long ago.  Everyone thought that was such a good idea including the lawyer we used down there at the time.

So to make a long story short, my husband and I are finally having our 2021 taxes finalized - it was a crazy year for us and that's why we're so late in getting it done.  But my CT tax accountant (who is very good) is completely clueless about NYC co-ops.  So I am looking for a NYC tax accountant that knows something about co-ops.  If you or anyone else here knows of one you can put me on to, PM me.  Thanks!

[oliviabenson]

On 1/25/2024 at 8:45 PM, Ancaster said:

 

My former parents-in-law "owned" a place in Co-op City, The Bronx, bought when it was supposed to be the next new thing.  That turned out to be a terrible investment.  I have had chickens that have done better in coops.  (I'm kidding, but there's a lot of bitterness in the family about Co-op City, so dark humor is my default here.)

I know someone who lives there and likes it! They paid $7000 to buy the coop! 

[EtheltoTillie]

9 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

 I wish someone would have told me about this before my father signed it over to me so long ago.  Everyone thought that was such a good idea including the lawyer we used down there at the time.

S

Yup, I'm the lawyer who would have told you about the taxes.  Ouch.  We would have put it in a trust.   I will PM you.

Edited January 27 by EtheltoTillie

[oliviabenson]

I rent my apartment and call it my house. It’s easier and shorter to say.

[ginger90]

1 hour ago, Yeah No said:

It's amazing how much stuff was crammed into my parents' 1000 square foot apartment.  One friend said her father's entire house, which included an unattached garage full of stuff was less trouble than that and she came to help me on several occasions.  My parents were "collectors".  The thing is that they collected meaningful stuff, not just junk that you see on TV shows.  My mother also had taken in mementos from other deceased relatives and one was an avid photographer.  Plus there were files relevant to their army background and co-op sale to find.  So it took longer to go through even though there might have been less of it.  If I wasn't careful I'd throw out something valuable and I didn't want to risk that.

My parents' building was built in 1974 so there was no rent control on it (only the usual rent stabilization laws) but the owner wanted out anyway and it was the thing to do in the mid '80s.  My parents paid only $25,000 at the insider price for their apartment in 1985.  Then after my mother died in 2001 and my father lost 2 of his best friends in the same year he became worried that if something should happen to him I'd lose out.  So he signed the apartment over to me in 2005, meanwhile he died in 2020. 

I took out an equity line on it, also in 2005 and Chase had an appraisal done on it, but they refused to give me anything to show what it was worth because they said it was done for their own purposes, not mine.  I do remember the value the appraiser told my father it was worth but it was only word of mouth.  I have looked online for historical sales in the building and the only comparable apartment sold in 2012.  Most of the apts. in the building were 1 bedrooms and this one had 2 plus it was on the top floor which made it more desirable. 

The reason this is important is that I found out that in addition to the flip tax and all the other taxes I already paid there is a capital gains tax I owe that might have to be computed based on the market value of the apartment in 2005.  However, I have nothing in writing to show what it was worth.  Even the transfer of ownership only involved transferring his shares in the co-op to me.  The share value is not the same as market value and there was no cash transaction of any kind.  BTW, I am worried that I will have to pay an astronomical amount in taxes if it's computed this way.  It looks like this is treated like an investment property when it is not, which I think would be unfair.  But I really don't know.  The only other way I could be off the hook for a lot of money is if I could show that I lived there for 2 out of the last 5 years I owned it, which I can't because I didn't.  I wish someone would have told me about this before my father signed it over to me so long ago.  Everyone thought that was such a good idea including the lawyer we used down there at the time.

So to make a long story short, my husband and I are finally having our 2021 taxes finalized - it was a crazy year for us and that's why we're so late in getting it done.  But my CT tax accountant (who is very good) is completely clueless about NYC co-ops.  So I am looking for a NYC tax accountant that knows something about co-ops.  If you or anyone else here knows of one you can put me on to, PM me.  Thanks!

I would think the problem is, since it was in your name, it makes it a sale, not an inheritance. I don’t think it much matters what the residence was called. My father passed long before my mother. She set up trusts, and their house  profits when we sold after my mother passed, were an inheritance, not a profit as owners.

[peacheslatour]

22 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

I would think the problem is, since it was in your name, it makes it a sale, not an inheritance. I don’t think it much matters what the residence was called. My father passed long before my mother. She set up trusts, and their house  profits when we sold after my mother passed, were an inheritance, not a profit as owners.

I got DPOA over my dad in 2019. This allowed me to sell his house and put the money into an account earmarked for his care. I'm his sole heir so whatever I inherit will be taxed that way.

[EtheltoTillie]

59 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

I would think the problem is, since it was in your name, it makes it a sale, not an inheritance. I don’t think it much matters what the residence was called. My father passed long before my mother. She set up trusts, and their house  profits when we sold after my mother passed, were an inheritance, not a profit as owners.

Yes, if it had been in dad's name until death there would have been no or very little capital gains tax.  If it had been placed in certain type of trust where dad was still a beneficial owner, there would have been no or very little capital gains tax.  Now it is a sale of a gifted property, so it is taken at the market value of when the gift was received, 2005.  it was a gift with no recorded transaction value.  Now it is like you were selling an investment property or a property you inherited in 2005 and sold in 2021.  The capital gain is the difference between the sale in 2021 minus the market value in 2005. 

@Yeah No 's problem seems to be finding out the market value of the property in 2005.  This is not that hard.  You can get an appraiser who can tell you a historical value by looking at comparable sales of that time. They have ways of finding that out.  It's not an exact science, it's an estimate.  My accountant always says that the IRS does not go nuts on the documentation you provide for such assessments.  Then you pay at the long term capital gains rate, which is less than the regular income rate.  It is not "astronomical," as Yeah No fears, but of course, I don't know how much gain there was.  I believe the flip tax will be deducted from the gain, as it actually reduces your gain.  The accountant will be able to confirm that rule. 

 

 

Edited January 27 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

 there was no rent control on it (only the usual rent stabilization laws)

I was using the term rent control loosely.  NYC Rent Stabilization is a form of rent control.  NYC Rent Control is an earlier version of rent control.  Both are still in effect, depending on when you moved in to your apartment.  Both have the same protections from being evicted and allowing to pass on the tenancy rights to family members. 

[Yeah No]

2 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Yes, if it had been in dad's name until death there would have been no or very little capital gains tax.  If it had been placed in certain type of trust where dad was still a beneficial owner, there would have been no or very little capital gains tax.  Now it is a sale of a gifted property, so it is taken at the market value of when the gift was received, 2005.  it was a gift with no recorded transaction value.  Now it is like you were selling an investment property or a property you inherited in 2005 and sold in 2021.  The capital gain is the difference between the sale in 2021 minus the market value in 2005. 

@Yeah No 's problem seems to be finding out the market value of the property in 2005.  This is not that hard.  You can get an appraiser who can tell you a historical value by looking at comparable sales of that time. They have ways of finding that out.  It's not an exact science, it's an estimate.  My accountant always says that the IRS does not go nuts on the documentation you provide for such assessments.  Then you pay at the long term capital gains rate, which is less than the regular income rate.  It is not "astronomical," as Yeah No fears, but of course, I don't know how much gain there was.  I believe the flip tax will be deducted from the gain, as it actually reduces your gain.  The accountant will be able to confirm that rule. 

My CT accountant seems to think I would owe around $15,000 and change but I doubt he deducted the flip tax as I don't think he even knows what that is and his email to me about this didn't mention that.   Also the NY lawyer that handled the sale for me said a higher appraisal would be in my interest because it would mean there was less of a gain on it.  I have a feeling it might have appraised at more if we had one done ourselves.  I think it might be complicated to have a historical value done on it.  It's a unique property and hard to find comps for it.  None of the other buildings in the neighborhood are comparable and it would seem to be worth less if compared to apartments there.  There aren't that many co-op apartment buildings in that neighborhood (most are private houses).  And it's considered a very specific neighborhood.  Go a few steps up Riverdale Avenue and it would be worth more.  It's right next to Riverdale Avenue but that doesn't seem to matter.  One reason the building was easier to afford back in the day.

Also, it is considered the biggest and most desirable apartment in the building based on being on a corner and top floor.  When I sold it I got more for it than other 2 bedroom apartments in the neighborhood and I believe I might have gotten the most money for an apartment in that building to that date (although not the most per square foot).  And that was WITHOUT renovating it, and it needed new EVERYTHING and nothing was salvageable.  My parents never put any money into it if you can believe that and I spent only $3,000 having it cleared out and painted.  I sold it in as-is condition.  So all of that complicates things, but I was told never putting improvements into it actually helps my cause.

I just took a look at the history and 2 more slightly smaller 2 bedrooms sold after mine, one in 2022 for $5,000 more than mine sold for and one just a few days ago for only $10,000 more than mine and they were completely renovated!  So that only further complicates getting any accurate appraisal based on history.  The closest comparison is with the apt. next door, which had similar square footage that sold in 2012, 7 years after I took ownership of my father's apartment.  The only apartments on the website I consulted that sold in 2005 our thereabouts were studios and less than half the square footage.  But what do I know?  Perhaps the right appraiser would be able to factor all these things into it and be able to give it the appraisal it deserves.

Can I find an appraiser through my realtor?  I would think someone familiar with the building might be the best choice.

[EtheltoTillie]

For your amusement, I give you a couple of before pictures of my 1925 apartment, before renovation.  I don't know what I like best about the 1925 bathroom--the broken sink base, the filthy white octagon tiles or the weird puny lamp over the sink. 

 

 

[EtheltoTillie]

9 minutes ago, Yeah No said:

My CT accountant seems to think I would owe around $15,000 and change but I doubt he deducted the flip tax as I don't think he even knows what that is and his email to me about this didn't mention that.   Also the NY lawyer that handled the sale for me said a higher appraisal would be in my interest because it would mean there was less of a gain on it.  I have a feeling it might have appraised at more if we had one done ourselves.  I think it might be complicated to have a historical value done on it.  It's a unique property and hard to find comps for it.  None of the other buildings in the neighborhood are comparable and it would seem to be worth less if compared to apartments there.  There aren't that many co-op apartment buildings in that neighborhood (most are private houses).  And it's considered a very specific neighborhood.  Go a few steps up Riverdale Avenue and it would be worth more.  It's right next to Riverdale Avenue but that doesn't seem to matter.  One reason the building was easier to afford back in the day.

Also, it is considered the biggest and most desirable apartment in the building based on being on a corner and top floor.  When I sold it I got more for it than other 2 bedroom apartments in the neighborhood and I believe I might have gotten the most money for an apartment in that building to that date (although not the most per square foot).  And that was WITHOUT renovating it, and it needed new EVERYTHING and nothing was salvageable.  My parents never put any money into it if you can believe that and I spent only $3,000 having it cleared out and painted.  I sold it in as-is condition.  So all of that complicates things, but I was told never putting improvements into it actually helps my cause.

I just took a look at the history and 2 more slightly smaller 2 bedrooms sold after mine, one in 2022 for $5,000 more than mine sold for and one just a few days ago for only $10,000 more than mine and they were completely renovated!  So that only further complicates getting any accurate appraisal based on history.  The closest comparison is with the apt. next door, which had similar square footage that sold in 2012, 7 years after I took ownership of my father's apartment.  The only apartments on the website I consulted that sold in 2005 our thereabouts were studios and less than half the square footage.  But what do I know?  Perhaps the right appraiser would be able to factor all these things into it and be able to give it the appraisal it deserves.

Can I find an appraiser through my realtor?  I would think someone familiar with the building might be the best choice.

Please email me tomorrow as I PM'd you, and we can discuss all this.  Yes, I think it will be relatively easy to find an appraiser, and again, it's not an exact science.  A higher appraisal from 2005 helps you.  But if there are no exact comparables, they just do some kind of calculus.  The history is only about sales that took place in 2005.  That's what they will be searching for.  Your apartment in 2005 condition v. other apartments in 2005.  Ask your accountant about this.  I think he will agree that the IRS accepts anything reasonable from a professional appraiser. 

FWIW, prices have stagnated a bit since 2005.  In my building and my old building, sales prices are pretty flat.  So your gain might be less than you expected.  I'm also going to ask on our T/E list serve if anyone has names of appraisers who would do this. 

 

Edited January 27 by EtheltoTillie

[StatisticalOutlier]

3 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Yes, if it had been in dad's name until death there would have been no or very little capital gains tax.  ...  Now it is a sale of a gifted property, so it is taken at the market value of when the gift was received, 2005. 

Just to add to this--the reason for this is that when a person inherits property, he gets what is called a step-up in basis. 

I don't know anything about coop ownership, but for assets like real estate and shares of stock, which trigger capital gains tax when you sell them, the tax is imposed on the difference in the value between when you obtained the asset and when you sold it (i.e., the gain).

Say a single mother of one son buys a house for $50,000 in 1980.  She dies in 2020 and the house is worth $900,000.  If her son inherits the house, her son gets a step-up in basis. 

If the single mother had sold the house in 2019, she would have had to pay capital gains tax on the ~$850,000 gain.  If she still owned it at her death in 2020 and her son inherits it from her and then sells it in 2021 for $910,000, he owes capital gains tax on a $10,000 gain--the difference between what he sells it for and his basis, which is $900,000 because he inherited it and got a step-up in basis.

[But see EtheltoTillie's post below about the personal residence exemption, which would apply to certain real estate but not to other assets, like shares of stock.]

Losing the advantage of a step-up in basis is something a lot of people aren't aware of when they get the idea to transfer ownership of their house to their adult child instead of waiting for the child to inherit it upon the parent's death.

Edited January 27 by StatisticalOutlier

[EtheltoTillie]

@StatisticalOutlier  Ha ha, I wasn't going to throw in the actual term "step up in basis." 

Co-op apartments are "personal property," being shares of stock, but they are treated like real property for all these other purposes. 

Edited January 27 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

5 hours ago, StatisticalOutlier said:

This is something a lot of people aren't aware of when they get the idea to transfer ownership of their house to their adult child instead of waiting for the child to inherit it upon the parent's death.

This is exactly what appears to have happened with @Yeah No.  I've seen it many times. ETA   See new info below.  

BTW, in your hypothetical, the single mother would get the $250,000 personal residence exemption if she sold in 2019.  So her gain would be reduced by $250,000.  Co-ops get the personal residence exemption on sales.  A married couple would get $500,000.

Edited January 28 by EtheltoTillie

[StatisticalOutlier]

5 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Ha ha, I wasn't going to throw in the actual term "step up in basis." 

I favor avoiding technical terms, too, but "step up in basis" is something people might hear mentioned even if particulars aren't given.  And it's actually descriptive, so it might stick.

2 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

BTW, in your hypothetical, the single mother would get the $250,000 personal residence exemption if she sold in 2019.  So her gain would be reduced by $250,000.  Co-ops get the personal residence exemption on sales. 

Aah, good point.  I edited my post to acknowledge it. 

[shapeshifter]

7 hours ago, Browncoat said:

Last year, I had a pipe freeze and break, and the water bill was astronomical!  But I called the water authority, who looked up my past bills, and they were able to reduce the high bill by about 75%.  I mean, I still paid way more than usual, but I didn't have to pay the whole thing.  

I've heard of the water company giving a break for such accidents to several relatives and acquaintances. I think it happened to my condo last year too when some outside pipes connected to the public utilities failed, but I wasn't directly involved.  
Anyway, moral of the story:
Always call the utility company when you have an atypical bill and do your best to sound like someone they would like to help, even though you may feel like screaming.

 

 

4 hours ago, peacheslatour said:

I got DPOA over my dad in 2019. This allowed me to sell his house and put the money into an account earmarked for his care. I'm his sole heir so whatever I inherit will be taxed that way.

I am supposed to get a Durable Power of Attorney  document together for my condo. I started working on it, including emailing the lawyer who did the paperwork when I bought it, but I haven't followed through. 
What I really need to do is come up with a better to-do list system.

 

 

Today was the official birthday party for my already-2-year-old lambchop. There were about 2 dozen of my son-in-law's extended family members in attendance, about half-and-half kids and adults, with only 2 toddlers besides Lambchop. 
The last extended family unit to arrive (including a mom who is a cousin, her husband, and her mom) are on the total opposite spectrum of beliefs, and they came in with a cloud of perfume (to which I'm sensitive) so I was inclined to leave early. 
But I stayed and had some warm conversations with them, which turned out to be probably my psychological highlight for the last couple of months.

[Kitty Redstone]

Barney Miller was such a great show. So many funny and poignant episodes, with "Hash" being an especially memorable one all due to Jack Soo. It was one of my dad's favorites and the kids and I have watched re-runs over the years. My youngest son is a musician and loves the bassline in the intro. I'm glad you were able to find the coop/condo episode, @EtheltoTillie.

10 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Barney Miller:

In the late 70s- early 80s, the rental buildings were being converted because the rent controlled rents were so low the landlords couldn't keep up the buildings. Most of them built in the 1920s.  Nice solid buildings but there was massive deferred maintenance.

Thank you for the explainer! I think Law and Order had an episode or two that touched on rent control as well, and it always made me think of Barney Miller. Glad to finally have an answer and that the BM episode took some liberties with the facts, ha ha.

6 hours ago, oliviabenson said:

I rent my apartment and call it my house. It’s easier and shorter to say.

Yes, when we lived in apartments we also called them our house.

1 hour ago, EtheltoTillie said:

For your amusement, I give you a couple of before pictures of my 1925 apartment, before renovation.  I don't know what I like best about the 1925 bathroom--the broken sink base, the filthy white octagon tiles or the weird puny lamp over the sink. 

 

 

Love that style of sink, though! When we finally redo our main bathroom we're going to go with a pedestal one. The local Habitat for Humanity Restore has a ton of good ones to choose from.

Edited January 28 by Kitty Redstone

[EtheltoTillie]

Oh so true about that musical opener, @Kitty Redstone

[EtheltoTillie]

STOP THE PRESSES!  Yeah No may have no capital gains after all.

I posted on our state bar trusts and estates list serve to get the name of an appraiser for @Yeah No.  Two of my colleagues who regularly practice in this area immediately posted that Yeah No should get a step-up in basis (HT @StatisticalOutlier ) after all, because dad lived in the apartment till his death.  And a third colleague posted the same thing in another listing last week.  Apparently, it is treated as a retained life estate, which also results in a step up in basis, even if the language is not on the share transfer certificates (usually used for house transfer deeds).

  A retained life estate is where you say "I give you my property, but I retain the right to live here for the rest of my life."    Usually, this is only used for houses, not co-ops.  There is a step-up in basis for this type of transfer.  I was not aware that you could use this for co-ops even if the shares did not have this language, but that's what at least three of my colleagues say.  Check with your accountant, and I can get you a referral to a NYC accountant who knows co-ops if you want.  This is an incredible quirk in the law regarding co-ops, which are weird to begin with.

They apparently treat the situation like a life estate (.  So maybe the lawyer who helped you knew what he was doing after all.  Ask your accountant about section 2036 of the IRC, they say.  I disclaim any responsibility for practicing law here:  check with your accountant.  But I am very lucky to have this valuable resource where people share information. 

 

This is not to be construed as legal advice:  you must seek your own lawyer or accountant to verify all of this.

 

 

Edited January 28 by EtheltoTillie

[EtheltoTillie]

@Yeah No maybe your original lawyer knew about this quirk in 2005, but if so why didn’t he tell you about it?  Is he still around?  Maybe you can also contact him. 

[Ancaster]

.

 

Edited January 28 by Ancaster

[Yeah No]

4 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

STOP THE PRESSES!  Yeah No may have no capital gains after all.

I posted on our state bar trusts and estates list serve to get the name of an appraiser for @Yeah No.  Two of my colleagues who regularly practice in this area immediately posted that Yeah No should get a step-up in basis (HT @StatisticalOutlier ) after all, because dad lived in the apartment till his death.  And a third colleague posted the same thing in another listing last week.  Apparently, it is treated as a retained life estate, which also results in a step up in basis, even if the language is not on the share transfer certificates (usually used for house transfer deeds).  A retained life estate is where you say "I give you my property, but I retain the right to live here for the rest of my life."    Usually, this is only used for houses, not co-ops.  There is a step-up in basis for this type of transfer.  I was not aware that you could use this for co-ops even if the shares did not have this language, but that's what at least three of my colleagues say.  Check with your accountant, and I can get you a referral to a NYC accountant who knows co-ops if you want.  This is an incredible quirk in the law regarding co-ops, which are weird to begin with.

They apparently treat the situation like a life estate (.  So maybe the lawyer who helped you knew what he was doing after all.  Ask your accountant about section 2036 of the IRC, they say.  I disclaim any responsibility for practicing law here:  check with your accountant.  But I am very lucky to have this valuable resource where people share information. 

This is not to be construed as legal advice:  you must seek your own lawyer or accountant to verify all of this.

Wow, both of you are amazing, I can't thank you and @StatisticalOutlierenough for this!  This is ringing a bell with me -I am now sure I once heard about this, back in 2005 when the transfer happened.  But happening that long ago and me not being up on stuff like this I didn't remember it so well.  I was sure there was a reason I wouldn't have to pay much if anything but I forgot what it was and I think this sounds like it.  

My father did live in the apt. until his death, even paid the maintenance and utilities, and that can be confirmed by the building management company and co-op board.  I don't know if I ever had anything in writing to confirm his life estate but there is enough proof of that on utility bills, checks, etc.

Yes, I would like that referral to a NYC accountant because I know the CT accountant won't be able to handle this without some help.

4 hours ago, EtheltoTillie said:

@Yeah No maybe your original lawyer knew about this quirk in 2005, but if so why didn’t he tell you about it?  Is he still around?  Maybe you can also contact him. 

The original lawyer would be quite old now, and I only see references to him online as recently as 2021.  Now that you brought all this up I think he did mention this in 2005 but it somehow faded from my memory and I don't have anything in writing on it that I have been able to find - or if it existed I don't have a copy of it or I would have remembered this better. 

At the time I remember he drew up a DPOA for my father, which I had to present and use toward the end of his life, and a will.  We also discussed my father's life estate.  If there were any documents on this (and I don't know if there were) I haven't been able to find them in my files and I have looked through everything at this point. If the lawyer's office still has anything on this it would probably be retrievable but might take some time to get because their older files are electronically archived and they're not that easy to work with.  If you think I should contact his office, I will, but I probably won't be able to talk to him as I tried about 5 or so years ago and only got to speak with his assistant.  He was a single attorney in his own office.  This was (I believe) in 2018 or so when I got copies of the DPOA and that took some doing as they weren't that quick to respond.  I basically had to keep calling and go there in person to get anything from them.  I did have a copy of the DPOA but somehow there was an affidavit missing so I needed to get the full signed copy.   After a lot of aggravation I finally got an email from them with a copy of the DPOA and "full force" affidavit.

I just took a look online for him and he is still listed as a real estate lawyer but recent reviews have been awful.  The only reason we went to him is because my father used him to draw up his will and thought he was OK way back in 2005, although my father wasn't the authority on lawyers.  I figured for documents like this he would suffice.  But interestingly a client review on him from 2021 said he didn't mention a tax abatement that would have saved them money and there's evidence on one legal listing site that he had some kind of disciplinary action against him a couple of years ago too.  Yikes.

I used a lawyer from Yonkers for the closing in 2021 on the apartment.  He is much better than the other lawyer but still not the authority on the ins and outs of federal taxes and co-ops and he doesn't profess to be.  I have been in recent touch with him on this.  He is the person that paid the estimated NYS tax at closing for me and drew up a tax form on it using the assessed value I remembered the appraiser giving my dad in 2005.  Although I don't even really want to use that now because I'm not confident on that number.  When I spoke to him last week he recommended finding a NY tax accountant.

Also, one of my best friends is a local CT lawyer but his specialty lies elsewhere and he doesn't know that much about NY co-ops.  He did say he didn't think I would owe much of anything but nothing else specific.  I get how you have to make that disclaimer about legal advice as he does that all the time with me, LOL.

Again, I can't thank you enough and at times like this words fail me!   I'll write you an email in the morning or early afternoon.

Edited January 28 by Yeah No