S03.E05: Part Five - Imposters

[paigow]

IRL, Michelle Forbes declined to join DS9 - so the Major Kira character was created as a replacement - and Ro Laren joined the Maquis.

20 hours ago, ML89 said:

How did Ro know that Jack Crusher was Picard’s kid? 

Section 31 captured the Magic Candle and used enhanced interrogation techniques...

[Starchild]

On 3/16/2023 at 12:44 PM, Chicago Redshirt said:

Her name is Ro Laren. As a Bajoran, the custom is that only people who are on a very close basis with someone would use her last name. So Picard and anyone else would normally call her Ro and never Laren (unless they were clueless or presuming intimacy).

Now, I think it would have been a potential thing to indicate that they had reconciled for Picard to call her "Laren" at some point. But he never did onscreen in TNG (as opposed to the many, many times he called non-Bajoran crewmembers by their first names) so it makes sense that he wouldn't now. They hadn't spoken for 30 years and the last time they did, Ro betrayed Picard. So the notion of them being close enough for him to "Laren" her seems off. But if they went that route, they could have pulled it off.

I recall an explanation at the time Ro was introduced that Bajoran names were surname first. So Ro is her surname (Ensign Ro), just like Kira is a surname (Major Kira). I remember thinking, "oh like in China, that's cool." So I, too, would have expected Picard to use her given name ("Laren") when it was clear she was going to sacrifice herself.

This passage from Memory Alpha suggests that Bajorans feel "honoured" when other cultures get it right, but mostly they just accept that the construct will be misunderstood.

https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Bajoran#Names

On 3/16/2023 at 6:40 PM, Lebanna said:

So with the call-outs to Janeway so far, I don’t see Ryan actually saying she’d never appear in a scene with Mulgrew or something like that. And Mulgrew seems to be quite careful around her in that interview.  Especially as, if she survives the season, Seven has to be very likely to appear in more live action shows in this universe, so if Mulgrew wanted to come back, working well with Ryan in future could be a good way to get there.

I always loved the onscreen relationship between Janeway and Seven, I would love to see them together again.

On 3/17/2023 at 11:13 AM, ajsnaves said:

I think the question is where did this ability come from. We know the Founders were adept at genetic engineering from their work with the Vorta and Jem Hedar. I think it i reasonable to think they could do this to themselves on purpose to allow themselves to better sneak around Star Fleet.

21 hours ago, Pallas said:

I agree that these Changelings probably can't shape-shift into inanimate objects: a trade-off for their blood and guts and their ability to retain their form. I wonder, though, if all of the shape-shifters we've seen so far are true Changelings -- members of the Founders splinter group. Perhaps the splinter group engineered these more humanoid shape-shifters to serve as fodder in this particular war?

Ooh, ooh. What if these aren't the original Changelings at all? They so despised "solids" it's hard to believe them becoming more like them. What if they used their genetic engineering skills to "evolve" the Jem Hadar into a subservient shapeshifting warrior race?

18 hours ago, Emily Thrace said:

In regards to Ryan vs Mulgrew. I always got the impression Jeri Ryan blamed those in charge and Bermanga in particular rather than any specific cast member. (Which makes sense since one of them is her ex). Reading between the lines from a few different  sources (RDM's experience on Voyager jibes with this too) that the rot on that was from the top down and that Bermanga's particular brand of control issues and lack of people skills created a fairly toxic work environment. Mulgrew was mostly  just towing the line and has apologized. (Braga still never really apologized to RDM who was his writing partner last I heard.) In the case of Jeri Ryan's  introduction I think she blames the people who allowed the bullying to happen more than anyone which is fair imo.

Like many young women at the time, I always loved the Janeway character, which extended to a strong regard for Mulgrew as well. When the stories came out, it hurt to think she could be petty and vindictive to someone just trying to do their job. Ryan rarely engaged and I developed a lot of respect for her professionalism. In the end I love them both, and if they ever developed a new show with Janeway and Seven, I would watch it for sure.

19 minutes ago, ML89 said:

I’ve come over to the Dark Side and I now think Shaw is hilarious. Him singing his little song and telling the gang to get their bullshit stories straight made me smile.

When he bounced out the door, I looked around at my empty living room and said, out loud, "I like that guy."

[Prevailing Wind]

2 hours ago, Starchild said:

Like many young women at the time, I always loved the Janeway character, which extended to a strong regard for Mulgrew as well

I will probably never forgive her for "Mrs. Columbo."

[ML89]

18 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I will probably never forgive her for "Mrs. Columbo."

I so wanted her to have a picture of Peter Falk on her desk in Voyager - didn’t she say something about a lost love in the pilot?

[cambridgeguy]

3 hours ago, ML89 said:

How did Ro know that Jack Crusher was Picard’s kid? Did they tell Starfleet that?

Shaw was the one who called Starfleet - somehow, I don't think he felt the need to leave out any juicy details. 

[ML89]

1 hour ago, cambridgeguy said:

Shaw was the one who called Starfleet - somehow, I don't think he felt the need to leave out any juicy details. 

Somehow, I’m imagining the “record scratch - let me tell you how I ended up here”  of all time…

[MissLucas]

I'd really like to see Shaw's report.

[Zaffy]

The only problem I have with Picard 3rd season is that if the show keeps being that good, I will have a serious withdrawal syndrome after it ends

[FloatOn]

8 hours ago, ML89 said:

How did Ro know that Jack Crusher was Picard’s kid? Did they tell Starfleet that? (It also reminds me of Force Awakens and making a big deal of Kylo being Han’s son and not Leia’s too. Ugh).

That really bothered me too. I somewhat expect it from Sci-fi in general, and some of this is probably me projecting a little because I just don't enjoy the Jack plot, but to me, this show has a rather dim view on mothers and daughters. Everything is about fathers and sons.

Shaw is all ready to turn Jack over when he's just Beverly's son but once he learns he's Picard's son, he changes his mind. Beverly only matters to the main plot as Jack's mother. Almost every time Sidney La Forge talks, it's about her father; she doesn't even seem to have a mother. Terry Matalas saying that it was very important for Picard to have a son instead of a daughter. Him saying we needed that flashback of Picard and Riker because we needed to see a scene of Riker as a parent. Guess season one didn't count? Guess we don't need to see Troi as parent though because it's more important for us to get her nagging Riker? Speaking of all that, Riker was still sad obviously in Nepenthe but seemed to be living for his daughter and getting joy there. Now we learn nope he's been dead inside this whole time without his son and his daughter doesn't care that he's gone. Did he even mention or care about her when he thought they were dying?

A lot of the father and son stuff is good of course and effecting. I just wish it was more balanced. Give us some good parenting action all around.

[Prevailing Wind]

2 hours ago, FloatOn said:

this show has a rather dim view on mothers and daughters.

OK - let's name the mothers/daughters we've seen...  Um... the O'Briens, the 3 generations of Trois/Rikers , the Kiras (when Nerys went back in time to when her mom was messing around with Dukat - and that doesn't really count because her mom didn't know it was really her.)  And it's really a stretch to include Sirella Martok & Jadzia as the in-law.

Not much to go on.  I wonder if DC Fontana would have gotten around to writing some mothers & daughters.

 

[cambridgeguy]

2 hours ago, Prevailing Wind said:

OK - let's name the mothers/daughters we've seen...  Um... the O'Briens, the 3 generations of Trois/Rikers , the Kiras (when Nerys went back in time to when her mom was messing around with Dukat - and that doesn't really count because her mom didn't know it was really her.)  And it's really a stretch to include Sirella Martok & Jadzia as the in-law.

Not much to go on.  I wonder if DC Fontana would have gotten around to writing some mothers & daughters.

We've also seen Ezri's mom, and Seven's mom, and Burnham's mom (both bio and adopted), and Torres's mom (kind of).  Plus Kes got to meet her alternate future daughter, and Naomi's mom was a recurring character before the writers completely forgot about her.  Part of the reason we haven't seen it as often is because Trek wasn't exactly gender balanced back in the day.

[starri]

3 hours ago, cambridgeguy said:

Part of the reason we haven't seen it as often is because Trek wasn't exactly gender balanced back in the day.

And it was arguably even worse behind the camera.

[paigow]

15 hours ago, ML89 said:

Somehow, I’m imagining the “record scratch - let me tell you how I ended up here”  of all time…

Liam Shaw AKA Fresh Dipshit Of Chicago

On 3/17/2023 at 10:31 AM, iMonrey said:

Yeah but when Keiko was possessed by a P'ah Wraith she knew it. Her own personality was subdued and she was controlled by the spirit.

Sisko destroyed the magic spell book along with DuKat... so that would eliminate them from the suspect pool...

[Peace 47]

I found the Ro Laren conversation with Picard quite affecting, mostly because of Forbes’ good acting.  It’s kind of a thinker for me that the show is choosing to portray Jean-Luc as somewhat of a personal failure at the end of his life, despite all his professional successes.  His former best friend and the mother of his child dipped on him.  Ro’s last words in the hallway about her sadness at his holding such a grudge were painful to hear.  And I can’t remember Picard S1 and didn’t watch S2, but didn’t Raffi also have personal hard feelings towards Picard? 

Back in the day, I really responded to the promise of the TNG finale:  that Jean-Luc realized how much he loved his “people” and was going to do better personally and hold onto them (he went to the poker game!!), but I do get why things (including the movies) ultimately went differently, and we’re seeing the fallout of all of it now.  Now that I kind of follow this theme, I’m responding to the story a little better.  If Jean-Luc sucks that much on a personal level in his old age, I get why Beverly left.  Jack told Riker that Beverly cannot even talk about any good times on the Enterprise because it makes her too sad!  Imagine how badly Jean-Luc must have effed up for that to happen.  I can get behind this if they don’t let Jean-Luc off the hook for it all at the end of the day.

Captain Shaw is funny, even though he is an ass.  “Would you like to face said music stated or uninstated?”  And then he “knights” Seven. Hilarious.

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Peace 47

[Prevailing Wind]

I just re-watched this episode and finally realized who Crusher/Speleers reminds me of - Simon Baker (The Mentalist.)  Some of his snarky expressions are SO much like Patrick Jane's.

 

[MissLucas]

Yeah, well - I don't know about Jack Picard's ancestry but Ed Spleen looks increasingly like an experiment between James Norton and Simon Baker.

To wit:

 

Edited March 20, 2023 by MissLucas

[ML89]

39 minutes ago, Prevailing Wind said:

I just re-watched this episode and finally realized who Crusher/Speleers reminds me of - Simon Baker (The Mentalist.)  Some of his snarky expressions are SO much like Patrick Jane's.

 

That works - fellow conman.

Now there's some showdowns I'd like to see - Patrick Jane vs Shaw and Jane vs Vadic...

Wow, he would confound Troi too!

Edited March 20, 2023 by ML89

[dovegrey]

Just got around to watching this one due to travel. Beyond everything that's already been posted...

I really enjoyed this episode. It was good Trek, more or less.

While I still have my quibbles, I'm disappointed that there's only five episodes left. When watching, I keep thinking that this would have been a fantastic season 1, and the show itself could have been a kick ass series that stitched together major threads of the 90s Treks into one epic send-off. I don't have faith that there's going to be a decent resolution to this huge, franchise-spanning story they've finally decided to do, but I'm really, really hoping they stick the landing (with no reliance on some backdoor spin off).

Also, I certainly remember Ro from TNG but apparently can now only see Michelle Forbes as Admiral Cain. That was weird.

I can't with Raffi. She's a 21st century loose cannon in a 25th century plot, which was fine in the La Sirena spacescapade days but not so good since the show went all in on Starfleet.

[Cattoy]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:19 PM, MissLucas said:

Yeah, well - I don't know about Jack Picard's ancestry but Ed Spleen looks increasingly like an experiment between James Norton and Simon Baker.

Thank you! I've been trying to figure out who he reminded me of!

[norcalgal]

On 3/16/2023 at 6:35 PM, Prevailing Wind said:

But she isn't strictly human, is she?  She's of a humanoid species from Bajor.

I tried watching Voyager, but I just couldn't get into it. Besides, Janeway's hair seemed way too fussy for a starship captain.

I felt her hair got more relaxed as the show went on (maybe even as soon as S2). I just remembered they started out Janeway with a grandma/school marm hair bun.

[SnarkShark]

Fark 35 year old looking Jack Crusher II.  Each episode he sucks more. 

Ro is the only thing that saved this episode (okay, maybe Worf a little).

[millennium]

I thought this was one of the best Star Trek episodes I have seen in years.  It's been a long time since I have been caught up in the momentum of the story but that happened here, in large part due to Michelle Forbes.   Her confrontation with Picard is, IMO, the standout scene in the entire Picard series thus far.   I liked Ro's harder edge, a la Helena Cain, but without losing the core character.

On 3/16/2023 at 8:41 AM, greekmom said:

Fuck you show for making me think that Worf died.

I never thought for a second Worf had died.   There's just no way they would kill him off before he had a chance to reunite with Picard.   (Besides, the trailers for the series showed Worf scenes that hadn't happened yet.)

On 3/16/2023 at 9:08 AM, greekmom said:

Seven didn't have a connection to Picard in season 1 yet here we are. Neither does Janeway, yet she's been mentioned a few times.

It was established in Star Trek Nemesis that Picard and Janeway appear to have a friendly professional relationship, if not a personal one as well.

On 3/16/2023 at 11:31 AM, paigow said:

Who ends up being a criminal because it is Miguel Fucking Alvarez!

Who is also Ricardo Fucking Diaz!

On 3/16/2023 at 3:58 PM, Stardancer Supreme said:

Also, will we see Emperor Georgiou, perhaps using Picard's finale as a backdoor pilot to the Section 31 show?

That woman is everywhere all at once.

On 3/16/2023 at 4:52 PM, SnarkShark said:

I seem to recall being told he was in Shatner's documentary about a dozen years ago, but admit I've never seen it.

Thank your lucky stars.   He seems seriously ... impaired in it.  

 

On 3/18/2023 at 7:13 PM, ML89 said:

didn’t she say something about a lost love in the pilot?

I think she meant Sam Malone.

Now that the Ro story is wrapped up, should we brace ourselves for yet another attempt at redeeming the "Meaningless Death of Tasha Yar?"  Will Picard be given a chance to make amends with Reg Broccoli Barclay?

Edited March 27, 2023 by millennium

[Sandman]

On 3/16/2023 at 10:29 AM, starri said:

And I believe that show currently has dominion (so to speak)

I see what you did there. 

[paigow]

On 3/17/2023 at 8:05 AM, marinw said:

It must be great morale boster to be considered a "Non Essestial Crew Member". If you're non-essential, why are you there?

TNG had Mott The Barber and all the serving staff in 10-Forward

[Prevailing Wind]

9 hours ago, paigow said:

TNG had Mott The Barber and all the serving staff in 10-Forward

Keiko O'Brien wasn't all that essential, being a botanist.

[paigow]

1 hour ago, Prevailing Wind said:

Keiko O'Brien wasn't all that essential, being a botanist.

Arboretum 

[Prevailing Wind]

How essential IS the arboretum?

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's please stick to the episode - there is a Cast and Crew topic where you can take the deep discussion of crew on other ships and stations. Thank you.