Lady Mary: Quite Contrary

[saki]

Yes, she clearly didn't want pretty dresses/nice house enough to stomach Sir Richard - though, she did consider it strongly - but she did consider them sufficient reasons not to marry Matthew.  

 

I still don't really understand on what basis anyone thinks that she wanted to save Downton because of her wider understanding of its importance - I can't recall a single line from the show that would suggest that but plenty that would suggest that it was about not wanting to live in a smaller house and have fewer nice dresses.  For example, Cora says "Mary, a lot of people live in smaller houses than they used to", Mary replies, "Which shows you're American and I'm English. I shall be Countess of Grantham one day and the Countess of Grantham lives at Downton Abbey."

 

Or, a couple more examples, "Get it done quickly.This dinner has to be the grandest of the grand." "What do you hope to show her?"  "Why Downton matters, why it mustn't fall apart."  

 

"'I'm glad we've planned a dinner.  We can show you the real point of Downton."

 

I honestly can't find a single line, looking through the transcripts, that suggests that Mary has these broader interests in Downton or the wellbeing of the staff, etc

[Crs97]

I think I need to go back and watch season one again because while the stated reason for Mary's delay in answering Matthew was Cora's pregnancy, I thought her main reason for dragging her feet was that she was afraid to tell him about Pamuk and didn't think she could marry him otherwise. I thought it really came down to her loving him and thinking he would stop loving her once he knew she wasn't a virgin. She was fine being thought of as mercenary because the alternative was so much worse.

[jnymph]

I don't get why men inexplicably fall at Mary's feet. She's not nice, not that more attractive than the nicer Edith who has more depth, and can't be the only peer's 'catch.' After all, Downton will go to baby George anyway.

I think I know why. And it's not the money.

It's BECAUSE she is a stone cold bitch. Period.

Men throughout the ages SAY they don't like bitches........ But at the end of the day the bitches seem to be the ones getting all the attention. Men love the "hard to get" woman. The one with confident (cocky) attitude - sad but true!

Watch a few episodes of House Hunters; you'll see what I mean. Good looking nice guys with shrews all the time!

Edited January 15, 2015 by jnymph

[HoodlumSheep]

I think I need to go back and watch season one again because while the stated reason for Mary's delay in answering Matthew was Cora's pregnancy, I thought her main reason for dragging her feet was that she was afraid to tell him about Pamuk and didn't think she could marry him otherwise. I thought it really came down to her loving him and thinking he would stop loving her once he knew she wasn't a virgin. She was fine being thought of as mercenary because the alternative was so much worse.

I just rewatched the episode where she tells Cora that Matthew proposed (so the second to last ep). She didn't want to enter a relationship with a giant secret looming over her head. While I think there could have been some hesitation to accept on her part due to him not being the heir, I think she would have quickly gotten over it and accepted anyways. The guilt from the Pamuk scandal eventually won out though.

[Tetraneutron]

Mary isn't "nice" (if we interpret that to mean being a simpering doormat like Lavinia) but I don't think she's mean. In the whole show, we've really only seen her be mean to Edith (who should really grow a spine. You're an adult with a job and employees and a child. Stop being so scared of what Mary will think). She's been nice to everyone else, regardless of if they're her social equals or her servants or Irish or Jewish or black or a pig farmer or a shrew wannabe socialist teacher.  But nice doesn't mean being a pushover or not having conflicting desires of your own you're willing to fight for. She wanted her grandmother's money, made a (polite yet determined) play for it, didn't get it and let it go. She didn't waver or panic. Who else has she been mean to? Carlisle, maybe, but he explicitly told her he saw their relationship as a business arrangement and he was infinitely more horrible to her.

 

Mary is no different than, say, Alicia of The Good Wife, who also wants love and passion and family and personal fulfillment and respect and professional success and acts like she deserves them. Or Olivia Pope (well, Mary makes much better life choices). Or any of the women on Greys Anatomy. Or Mindy Lahiri. Etc.

 

 

Men throughout the ages SAY they don't like bitches........ But at the end of the day the bitches seem to be the ones getting all the attention. Men love the "hard to get" woman. The one with confident (cocky) attitude - sad but true!

That goes for both genders. Veronica has always been more interesting than Betty. That's why Mary is appealing. She has enough personal magnetism that other people find her interesting. It's not bitchy. Her concern is for herself and her own interests (which in this case is an outdated, economically non-viable, and unjust system, but still). Same as with Robert and Matthew and everyone likes them. This is true for every character. Wasn't Anna more interesting when she was fighting for her husband rather than moping and not talking to him? Wasn't Tom more interesting when he was a revolutionary than when he was dithering about whether to leave Downton? People with strong personalities are appealing to others.

Edited January 17, 2015 by Obviously

[Eolivet]

I agree with this. In fact I can't like Mary at all because to my eyes, she's not a strong woman but a self satisfied, arrogant woman with moments of needless cruelty. Mary doesn't whine when her husband dies but she does sit in her room for six months before deciding that her child might need her to get on with life. She doesn't act ashamed over things like turning down Matthew when she thinks her mother might give birth to a boy. Maybe she should have, just as she should have been ashamed of telling Sir Anthony that Edith was hiding from some man when he came to propose or ashamed of kissing Matthew while Lavinia was gravely ill. Decent people do feel guilt sometimes.

 

Emphasis mine.

 

I just had to respond to this, because I don't think Mary deserves one iota of blame, nor should she feel any guilt for Lavinia's death. Matthew initiated everything romantic in that scenario: he put on the music, he asked her to dance, he pulled her close and started whispering all sorts of regrets and apologies and he kissed her. The most you could say is Mary didn't push him away, but she also wasn't beholden to Lavinia. That was Matthew. Mary was entering a loveless marriage, so she had nothing about which to feel guilty. Matthew did. Matthew dragged Mary into his cesspool of guilt and implicated them both for Lavinia's death, punishing Mary for months for his own sins and conflicted feelings when she really did nothing wrong. Another woman's fiance kissed her. What was she supposed to do?

 

I can see why Mary earns ire from the viewers for many things, but I just don't think Lavinia's death belongs on that list. That was all Matthew.

[JudyObscure]

I can see why Mary earns ire from the viewers for many things, but I just don't think Lavinia's death belongs on that list.

 

I don't think Lavinia's death belongs on that list either.  Lavinia's death was caused by the flu with perhaps a little bit of that illusive "will to live," playing a part if she had lost some of that at the end.   I said I thought Mary might feel  ashamed over kissing Matthew as Lavinia lay gravely ill.  Not because I thought their kissing would cause Lavinia's death,  but because  I think  it's a matter of decent decorum under the circumstances.   I  think she should have pushed him away when he tried to kiss her.  

[Avaleigh]

They didn't know that she was "gravely" ill though. She'd gone upstairs to lie down and ended up staying.

[Eolivet]

Exactly. Considering Mary didn't even push Carlisle away when he pushed her against a post, kissed her and threatened her -- to say nothing of what happened with Pamuk -- I'm really uncomfortable with the idea that it's Mary's responsibility not to get kissed.

[saki]

I don't think it's Mary's responsibility, at all (and I hate Mary!) but... They did know that she was ill with the Spanish flu, that she wasn't very physically strong, so - yeah - while they didn't know that she would die, they did know - from the fact that so many people died from this - that it was serious.  And, even if they hadn't known that at the time, I think it would be normal human feeling to look at that retrospectively and feel bad.  I honestly think most people would.

 

Mary's reaction to Matthew's very natural scruples about taking Swire money and giving it to support Mary in the style to which she's accustomed is so angry and disappointed, it really shows a complete lack of feeling.  I could understand why she'd disagree with his position but she shows no understanding of it which comes across to me as almost sociopathic.

 

I also completely disagree that Lavinia was a "simpering doormat" - she had the guts to cut a deal with Sir Richard.  No, she wasn't constantly rude to people and didn't think herself superior but she had her own opinions, she had the strength to do things when she needed to, she was a good match for Matthew, I felt.  

Edited January 20, 2015 by saki

[SusanSunflower]

Because of "as-written" issues, it was hard to see Lavinia for a long time. As Matthew's wife, she would have been a lively companion at table -- at home and as guests -- and a wife, Matthews' friends would have both admired and envied. Mary, not so much.  With Mary, you get astonishing production values, a very static House Beautiful, but it's a largely empty, even vacuous house, in which what is "stimulating" is also fairly shallow and petty.  Would Mary have been a warm and welcoming host to Matthew's colleagues? Oh, wait, he would not and did not have any, because he gave up his career to manage Downton, in part, likely because of the whole stigma against working for a living, even as a partner rather than an employee, see Dr. Clarkson and other professional.

[Eolivet]

I don't think it's Mary's responsibility, at all (and I hate Mary!) but... They did know that she was ill with the Spanish flu, that she wasn't very physically strong, so - yeah - while they didn't know that she would die, they did know - from the fact that so many people died from this - that it was serious.  And, even if they hadn't known that at the time, I think it would be normal human feeling to look at that retrospectively and feel bad.  I honestly think most people would.

 

Mary almost didn't accept Matthew's proposal of marriage because she thought Lavinia wouldn't like it. If that's not feeling bad, I don't know what is.

 

We also have no idea how Mary felt after Lavinia died, because not 2 minutes after she was buried, Mary was indicted as a co-conspirator in her murder. She went up to Matthew to offer condolences and was greeted with 1) a tirade of grief and self-pity, including being accused of being a killer and 2) the assertion that she was "cursed" (and lest anyone think Matthew was talking about himself and Mary as a couple, he told Isobel months later that he "deserved to be unhappy -- so does Mary.")

 

I guess don't understand how (or when) Mary was supposed to pipe up with "I totes feel bad about Lavinia, BTW."

 

ETA: To be fair, I feel like Lavinia in season 3 (and her father's fortune) is a different issue than Lavinia in season 2. I see them as separate issues entirely. The argument can be made that Mary should've been more sensitive to Matthew's hesitation about taking the Swire fortune in season 3. But in season 2? Mary was nothing but kind to Lavinia, and I guess made the mistake of not fighting Matthew off with a stick when he wanted to dance with her and kissed her and then had a metric ton of guilt hurled at her head, none of which I felt she deserved. The only person who should've felt any guilt about Lavinia's death is Matthew, her fiance (hence, his reason for feeling guilty in season 3). The fact that Mary is being indicted for not being appropriately sad I feel is residual irritation at season 3 Mary. But Mary was the nicest she's ever been in season 2. She's guilty of many things, but not in season 2, IMO.

Edited January 20, 2015 by Eolivet

[CleoCaesar]

Men throughout the ages SAY they don't like bitches........ But at the end of the day the bitches seem to be the ones getting all the attention. Men love the "hard to get" woman. The one with confident (cocky) attitude - sad but true!

 

Oh dear. This reminds me of MRA types who are unsuccessful with women complaining about how women only go for jerks and they’re just too stupid to go for the “nice guys” like them. It's really not true. Also, having a confident attitude isn’t being a bitch. And confident and cocky aren’t the same thing.

[SusanSunflower]

Men -- most anyway -- do like women who are passionate and responsive, even a bit "untamed" in bed. "Bitchy women" are more stimulating than passive, dull, cold-fish types. Many men discovered they really don't (MRA style) like women with opinions or who demand their freedom -- and unhappy, contentious marriages result -- and all that great make-up sex ... yes, all cliches that have found their place in many lives, including women-who-stay.  I've been the "independent woman" someone thought they were looking for ... only to be frustrated when I resisted being tamed.  Women have their bad-boys. It's not some XX versus XY, bitch versus bastard. I'm guessing some same-sex couples have the same dynamics -- who's on top.

Edited January 20, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[CleoCaesar]

Men -- most anyway -- do like women who are passionate and responsive, even a bit "untamed" in bed.

 

Okay but what does that have to do with being a bitch?

 

"Bitchy women" are more stimulating than passive, dull, cold-fish types.

 

Yes, because those are the only two options.

 

Many men discovered they really don't (MRA style) like women with opinions or who demand their freedom

 

There are so many gender generalizations in this post.

[SusanSunflower]

Yes, you missed the reference to cliches apparently ... which was largely my point. Men don't especially like bitchy women. That myth is based on other myths. Women don't like being mistreated or raped either. Women and their "bad boys" is the analog

Edited January 20, 2015 by SusanSunflower

[photo fox]

Let's get this back to Mary, please. :-)

[Constantinople]

In the Season 2 opener, Mary finds out Matthew is engaged to Lavinia.

Later in the episode, the following scene takes place at the local train station as Matthew is about to return to the front.
 

Matthew: [looks for his train car, but does a double take when he sees Mary waiting]
 
Mary: [turns around, sees Matthew, and they walk to each other].
 
Mary: Don't worry, I haven't come to undo your good work of the other night.
 
Matthew: You must have been up before the servants.
 
Mary: They were rather surprised to see me [opens purse].
 
Mary: I wanted to give you this [hands Matthew a little stuffed dog].

Mary: It's my lucky charm.

 
As if that temptress, hussy isn't telling Matthew "I'm your bitch" and "You'll get lucky with me"

Edited January 22, 2015 by Constantinople

[HoodlumSheep]

But in season 2? Mary was nothing but kind to Lavinia,

Just popping in here to say that was one of my favorite "Mary sorta-relationships (platonically, speaking)." She was kind to her and Lavinia was as sweet as could be to Mary and everyone else, and I was glad they could commiserate with each other over the fate of Matthew or whatever. I liked how Mary seemed to stand up for Lavinia as well, when you had Violet and such trying to make Lavinia out to be some horrible girl or something. They both loved Matthew very much, and it could have turned into petty love triangle, but it didn't. Mary handled the awkward situation very well in my opinion.

Also, I see Lavinia as pretty much her only real friend-ish/acquaintance that she's ever had that's not a family relation (Tom kinda counts as this because he married into the family), the staff, or a romantic prospect. Lavinia was going to marry into the family but it felt different than Tom's situation, and it never actually got to happen.

I'd have to rewatch season 3 again before tackling the Lavinia/money situation.

[saki]

ETA: To be fair, I feel like Lavinia in season 3 (and her father's fortune) is a different issue than Lavinia in season 2. I see them as separate issues entirely. The argument can be made that Mary should've been more sensitive to Matthew's hesitation about taking the Swire fortune in season 3. But in season 2? Mary was nothing but kind to Lavinia, and I guess made the mistake of not fighting Matthew off with a stick when he wanted to dance with her and kissed her and then had a metric ton of guilt hurled at her head, none of which I felt she deserved. The only person who should've felt any guilt about Lavinia's death is Matthew, her fiance (hence, his reason for feeling guilty in season 3). The fact that Mary is being indicted for not being appropriately sad I feel is residual irritation at season 3 Mary. But Mary was the nicest she's ever been in season 2. She's guilty of many things, but not in season 2, IMO.

 

I think that's right - that seasons 2 and 3 are quite different re: Lavinia.  That said, I often see people saying that they really liked Mary in season 2 and that it was a good redemptive kind of season for her.  I find it the worst season for Mary - because of her attitude to WW1 and the wounded soldiers.  The only thing she does for the war effort, other than nurse Matthew because she's in love with him, is sing in a concert and - even then - she whinges about it.  My favourite season for Mary - really the only one I can tolerate her in at all - is season 1.  I don't like her that much in season 1 but I find her entertaining to have on screen.

[ennui]

I think it's a big move for Mary to get a bob. All that hair, gone.

 

I don't really like the dynamics with Tony and Charles and Mabel. Mary doesn't want Tony, but she wants him to want her. Charles wants Mary, but she's ambivalent about him, too. Mabel is fabulous, though. Like her!

[HoodlumSheep]

I don't think Charles is really interested in Mary anymore. He seems like he's moved on from being a suitor and just seems like a friend now. But that's just my opinion.

I wouldn't mind him and Mary being just friends.

Anyways, this seems to be an unpopular opinion according to what's being said in the current episode thread, but I thought Mary was awesome this episode. What with the haircut (even though I'm not too fond of it), riding side saddle, and being awesome in general. I also don't think she was any more cruel to Edith than she normally is, so that didn't bug me too much.

I also like how she's friendly to Atticus and seems to support Rose and him.

[ShadowFacts]

I think being friendly to Atticus is baseline polite behavior.  Her cruelty to Edith is now becoming too extreme for me.  And of course she would be the fastest woman in the race even riding sidesaddle.  She is the alpha female, she wins it all.  If she had some quirk, something interesting (or the actress brought it), I could tolerate her a little better.  Honestly, she's over 30 years old and she's lashing out at her sister like that?  Put in a sock in it.  That's not how ladies behave, your ladyship.

[Avaleigh]

Honestly, she's over 30 years old and she's lashing out at her sister like that?

Typically, and this past episode was no exception, Edith lashes out at Mary first and Mary lashes back. Edith decided to tell Mary off in front of everyone for being insensitive and moving on with her life so Mary decided to lash back in turn. It's the way they do things with each other, unfortunately. Edith could have excused herself without going after Mary but she wanted everyone to know how angry she was and how insensitive she thinks they're all being to her situation without considering for a moment that it goes back to what her mother said about them not knowing him. Even Anna seems to understand the overall attitude of the family, I don't know why it's so hard for Edith to understand. 

[ShadowFacts]

Yes.  Edith is guilty as charged and seemingly a little unhinged.   But it's a little reminiscent of my kids saying "she started it, no he did".  These are not children, and Mary's response was in the nature of kicking someone when they're down, never a good trait in anybody let alone an adult family member.  Wouldn't it be nice if somebody put on their big girl pants and had a moment of insight/clarity and moved the family dynamic off of square one?  Could be either or both, but since this is the Mary thread . . .

[alias1]

Well, Edith was specific in what she said to Mary.  It was about being insensitive at a time when Edith found out for sure that Gregson was dead.  Mary just took it to junior high level and said you always ruin everything.  But Edith is just way too much of a sad sack for me so I'm actually not defending her.  That's the way Fellowes writes her.  On the other hand, he absolutely delights in the bitchiness that is Mary.  He gives her these zingers to say, usually without provocation.  While she was semi-likeable in season one, I really can't stand her any more. 

[Avaleigh]

He gives her these zingers to say, usually without provocation.

When it comes to the sniping with Edith, Edith is typically the instigator, I'd say as much as 85-90% of the time. The main exception to this that I can think of are one or two comments that she made in the season 3 Christmas Special. Apart from that Edith usually says something and Mary gives it right back to her. Most of the example of this are in the Mary/Edith thread.

[kpw801]

I think I need to go back and watch season one again because while the stated reason for Mary's delay in answering Matthew was Cora's pregnancy, I thought her main reason for dragging her feet was that she was afraid to tell him about Pamuk and didn't think she could marry him otherwise. I thought it really came down to her loving him and thinking he would stop loving her once he knew she wasn't a virgin. She was fine being thought of as mercenary because the alternative was so much worse.

Yup you do need to re-watch.  Mary told Rosamund that she was leaning toward accepting Matthew because they got on well together and that he was really rather clever and could possibly end up being an important law something or other.  At that point Rosamund says, but he very well might not be and "honestly Mary do you see yourself as the wife of a simple country solicitor?"  That was when Mary let herself be talked out of accepting Matthew because his prospects for prominence would be greatly diminished if Cora gave birth to a boy.  Then by the time Cora lost the baby, Matthew's pride had been hurt and he decided to leave Downton.

Yes.  Edith is guilty as charged and seemingly a little unhinged.   But it's a little reminiscent of my kids saying "she started it, no he did".  These are not children, and Mary's response was in the nature of kicking someone when they're down, never a good trait in anybody let alone an adult family member.  Wouldn't it be nice if somebody put on their big girl pants and had a moment of insight/clarity and moved the family dynamic off of square one?  Could be either or both, but since this is the Mary thread . . .

I agree Mary took it to another level.  When Matthew died, six months later on Valentine's Day, Edith was careful not to flaunt her Valentine in front of Mary knowing how it would sting.  On the other hand, Mary can never be bothered to put herself in anyone else's shoes, not even Anna's.

[ennui]

I think being friendly to Atticus is baseline polite behavior.  Her cruelty to Edith is now becoming too extreme for me.  And of course she would be the fastest woman in the race even riding sidesaddle.  She is the alpha female, she wins it all.  If she had some quirk, something interesting (or the actress brought it), I could tolerate her a little better.  Honestly, she's over 30 years old and she's lashing out at her sister like that?  Put in a sock in it.  That's not how ladies behave, your ladyship.

Maybe it's not how ladies behave, but it is how sisters / siblings behave.

[ShadowFacts]

Absolutely, it's how some siblings behave.  Then they grow up.  Or at least don't feel compelled to have public verbal meltdowns, and of course, that applies to both Mary and Edith.  Grow the hell up is how I feel every time they start their petty crap. They both look bad and make others feel uncomfortable, and are poor role models for children, if the children are ever around.  Which they aren't, much.

[Avaleigh]

Absolutely, it's how some siblings behave.  Then they grow up.  Or at least don't feel compelled to have public verbal meltdowns, and of course, that applies to both Mary and Edith.  Grow the hell up is how I feel every time they start their petty crap. They both look bad and make others feel uncomfortable, and are poor role models for children, if the children are ever around.  Which they aren't, much.

Responding to this in the Mary/Edith thread.

[SusanSunflower]

"Mary" has become a paperdoll again, circa end of season 1 and most of season 2.  Does she have any feelings for anyone, even herself? Does she lie awake at night wondering about her future, much less her future happiness with Blake or Gillingham, or just merely how fetching she will look in tomorrow's outfits and what clever thing someone said.  Did Anna see her new bob? If so, I missed it. Short hair may free up a lot of time but also reduce their "private intimate time" -- probably a relief for Anna, but Mary, like Edith has no confidante or woman friend just to "be there." I have had long hair most of my life because my quite thick and wavy hair does not behave when short, cannot be blown dry (not Mary's problem, but still) and responds wildly to humidity. I hope there are resources for Anna in trying to keep Mary presentable (since I don't think her hair is naturally straight or shiny). Since it's not going to be Gillingham, and I don't think it's going to be Blake (though I'd rather like it if Blake played a not-so-funny trick on Mary in this regard) -- I wonder when this "new man" will arrive and what his attractive qualities will be. 

[shipperx]

Yup you do need to re-watch. Mary told Rosamund that she was leaning toward accepting Matthew because they got on well together and that he was really rather clever and could possibly end up being an important law something or other. At that point Rosamund says, but he very well might not be and "honestly Mary do you see yourself as the wife of a simple country solicitor?" That was when Mary let herself be talked out of accepting Matthew because his prospects for prominence would be greatly diminished if Cora gave birth to a boy. Then by the time Cora lost the baby, Matthew's pride had been hurt and he decided to leave Downton.

I always remember Violet's summary of the situation (paraphrased) "if she turns him down when he might be poor, he may not want her when he might become rich."

[Wordsworth]

That's exactly right.  

 

Mary wouldn't agree to marry Matthew until he'd been told about Mr. Pamuk.  She wasn't excited to tell him which is why she kept putting him off.  Then Cora became pregnant.  Violet urged Mary to accept the proposal because, if she didn't agree to marry him when she thinks he might be poor, he won't want her to marry him when she thinks he will be rich.  That's exactly what happened.  

 

When Mary delayed her answer to Matthew again, he assumed she wanted to wait and see what gender Cora's baby was, as that would determine whether Matthew would be the heir.  He broke it off and left.

 

 

[jasoncap]

Can someone, anyone, please help me find a high-res shot of this? Many internet points and good vibes in return.

 

[ShadowFacts]

I truly enjoyed Mary's interest in Henry in the CS.  Though I am sick of her love life in general, it would be a neat twist to have her pine for someone who likes her but does not care to be tied down, is a free spirit, etc.  Sort of like Denys Finch Hatton as portrayed in 'Out of Africa'. 

[sark1624]

IMO it seems that they trie to show Mary as the heroine, the women who is strong and willing for de estate, always the winner, even she win in the horse race. Also i noticed that the woman enjoy more Mary because they would like to be like her, but in reality, the true of the life is that most of the times we aare loosers, we have problems in the job, with the love life, with our family, etc. For that reason i think that her character is boring, nobody always win and have everything.

 

If you think seriously, ¿you think that Matthew or any men would choice Mary? what men choice a women who insults your origins, your job? In real life you think, fuck this bitch i choose the younger sister is passionate, is a beauty and  sympathetic....even more, you could chose Edith that maybe its not gorgeous but at least read the newspaper, and she will be more docile.

 

Mary could be a interesting characther, maybe the future Violet, as a women running the estate and fighting in a man´s world, but they decide made of her a women only interested in clothes, hair, etc. But the main difference betwen Violet and Mary is that Violet never is cruel to others, nether servants or family. Isobel notices that when she tells her that even she no admit, she always care about others (when they find the job for the gardener Peg,)

 

I hope in the 6 season show a different Mary, i dont bother about the love aspect, buy i hope that show her more realistic person, that cares about things that really matters. 

[Roseanna]

There is nothing wrong in it that a woman wants all, but then she must fight in order to get it, not only sit and wait that everything will be given to her because she is entitled to it.

Scarlett pursued Ashley even though he was married, she worked and fought in order to keep Tara and she led her successfully her own company. When she lost Rhett, she vowed to get him back.

On the contrary, Mary didn't even try to get Matthew back and she accepted without a murmur his decision that Lavinia's death kept them apart for ever. In short, she followed the rules and she finally got Matthew because he had changed his mind on his own. (That's OK according to the rules, but the truth is she was quite passive except when she went to the railways station to say goodbye.)

The only time Mary did fight, she did it against her loved one and very ugly: she tried to press Matthew to have Swire's money by threatening to cancel the wedding and then she broke his privacy by opening his letter. She never respected or even tried to understand his values, but put his father before her husband. Not to speak of that she again showed that that position was the *most* important matters to her (cf. Cora).

Even in practical terms, Mary's suggestion meant that Matthew would have just given Shire's money to Robert who had just shown that he was quite foolish in business matters and left on his own he would have done it again. When he made a promise to share power with Matthew, he actually meant it only as courtesy. In the real life, Matthew would have invested in Downton only on condition that he would get the sole control over business matters. Otherwise he would have been a complete fool.

[Roseanna]

Mary's pattern of behavior wasn't constant in S1 and S2, on the contrary it was erratic.

She was willing to marry Patrick because he was an heir but she was not enthusiastic about it: "if nothing better comes". Did she mean with "nothing better" only better title and fortune or those and love? We were not told.

She was not willing to charm Matthew to marry her (which would have been quite easy) only in order to become Countess. The reason she gave was his "middle-class manners". Maybe it was more pride because she was hurt by his words she by accident heard that her family would push their daughters to him? After that she didn't even try to get to know him as a man (classic Elizabeth Bennet).

She wanted to break the entail but she never did anything to make it happen, only was hurt because her father didn't take her side. She never even tried to understand that as a man Robert looked at the matter from the objective and general, not subjective and personal POV.

When the duke visited Downton, she tried to charm him and it was obvious that she would have accepted his proposal, not because she was in love with him, but because being a Duchess was better than being Countess and he wasn't bad-looking nor unpleasing. She showed no hesitation even when he behaved badly visiting the servants' rooms which, even if the reason was unknown to her, showed that their values were different (of course that would have demanded a more mature woman).

But then came the dramatic turn: instead of choosing Napier who could give her what she wanted and whom her parents favored, she chose to flirt with Pamuk. On the other hand, when he kissed her, she clearly showed that he went too far. Maybe he could interpret her response to the kiss with a signal of another kind, but surely not as an encouragement to come to her room at night. In the real life, it was at least sexual harassment.

On the other hand, she could have screamed - Sybil would certainly have. Speaking of the scandal, it could have suppressed easily than what followed (the servants knew and could have gossiped, Mary surely knew). So, inside the show, one must assume that inside her was the wild girl that wanted to break rules. But when it ended in catastrophe, she became again a woman she was brought up - instead of breaking free by f.ex. moving to the USA and creating a new life there. But she wasn't willing to go so down as Cora assumed was now necessary - to accept a old and boring man only because of his title.

I just discovered that there's something odd in JF's writing here for after Pamuk fiasco, the options for Mary wasn't to have it "all" but 1) to have a man like Strallan without love, (2) Matthew and love with or without his future title and fortune (and in the latter case to help him to be a success) or (3) to become a spinster seeing Matthew become a master of Crownton with his wife.

As it was, Mary found yet another option in the self-made man, Carlisle, who was the only man who saw and accepted as she was. But of course JF made him so an unpleasant man (trying to spy, catching her arm and threatening her) that there was no actual choice for Mary - once she got surety that Robert accepted the scandal - which, BTV, never came. And so horrible as Carlisle was, what kind of man would have tolerated Mary close relationship with Matthew which would in the end damaged both marriages?

After Matthew's death, I can't see Mary seeking for love but using her power over men. In another words, like Crawford in Mansfield Park.

[Tetraneutron]

I don't see what's so complicated. Mary is written as a beautiful, charming woman. The top of the social heap. Who has options, and therefore wants everything - a good match in every sense of the word. She doesn't want to settle just to have security or a title, but she isn't going to throw it all over for love. So she's seeing how things play out, enjoying her power, not just jumping into some marriage because her parents want it/she'll be secure. She knows she's hot/socially skilled enough to have everything, so there's no reason to treat marriage like something she has to plan for. She'll pick one of her many suitors when she feels like it. 

 

Then she falls in love with Matthew for real. It's not just sexual attraction and excitement like Pamuk was, not doing her duty like Patrick would have been. She's emotionally invested in someone for the first time. 

 

As for the entail, she didn't fight it because she's not some kind of crusader with feminist beliefs about women and property. Yes, she wants money, but nowhere near enough to break up her estate, ruin her family, make enemies of them, and make her an outcast in society. Not enough to engage in a protracted legal battle she'd almost certainly lose. That's not who she is. She loves society. She rules her little corner of the world. And she doesn't need the money to force a man to marry her - she's beautiful and charming in her own right. (The only man who cared about her money was the Duke, and he was written as a horrible person, besides being gay). So really, she doesn't NEED to break the entail. She can do just as well regardless. 

[Andorra]

Julian Fellows wrote in the scriptbook that one important character trait of Mary is, that she has ambition. And an ambition for a woman in her class could only be fulfilled by marrying a powerful man in 1914. It's not just about money, clothes etc, but about power. Women in her class could only gain a position of importance  through marriage. By marrying Matthew she would practically give up her whole "career" and "life dream". As if she was a surgeon and asked to be a housewife for the rest of her life, just for love. Anyone would understand a woman to be reluctant to do so in our modern society, but it when it comes to Mary I think people underestimate this aspect. They feel she is just "shallow". 

Edited November 24, 2015 by Andorra

[Roseanna]

I don't think that Mary should have given up ambition by marrying Matthew. I have already said elsewhere: she herself said that Matthew had talents and she could have become Lord Chancellor. Why not a Minister? She could have been his partner and he would have get more power than they would have in Downton. She already had useful connections and could have made more through parties.

Originally, it was OK for Mary to wait in order to chose the "best" but, after her reckless action with Pamuk even if hadn't been, her options were lessened. The servants would have gossiped or Pamuk would have boasted. "Caesars wife" must not even be suspected. Realistically she could no more to demand "all", on the contrary she could rather lose all. In a situation like this, when there's chance of lifetime, it's foolish not to chose according to one's priorities and make the best of it.

However, one must honor Mary that she wanted to tell Matthew about Pamuk although she didn't dare to do it. For it's not at all sure that Matthew would have accepted her in 1914 - or if he had, she wouldn't be the goddess he obviously adored. After WW1, he had matured, seen death and longed for Mary for years.

[ZoloftBlob]

I have already said elsewhere: she herself said that Matthew had talents and she could have become Lord Chancellor. Why not a Minister? She could have been his partner and he would have get more power than they would have in Downton. She already had useful connections and could have made more through parties.

 

Well, an interesting point can be made that no one in the Crawley family ever really gave a damn about what Matthew ever wanted for his life so why should Mary care? I mean, when we first meet Matthew, he appears to be a relatively succesful young corporate lawyer in Manchester. Seems to have a nice enough place (tho I concede it was probably his parents's home), has servants, doesn't appear to be two steps from the work house.... And he gives that up to work as a country lawyer in Ripon to appease Robert... and its rather noticable that rather than be grateful that Matthew was willing to completely rip his life apart for the sake of family he'd never met, all of the Crawleys, including Mary seemed determined to convince themselves he was a piece of trash foisted into their lives.

 

By marrying Matthew she would practically give up her whole "career" and "life dream". As if she was a surgeon and asked to be a housewife for the rest of her life, just for love.

 

This isn't really a fair comparison. By marrying Matthew who wouldn't inherit, she would be the wife of a relatively successful middle upper class lawyer. For all that it's made out that Matthew was some poverty stricken piece of trash toiling in the coal mines, the reality is that while he might not have been a great catch for the daughter of an earl, he was in most other ways an extremely eligable bachelor. Reasonably good looking, healthy, has a good job... all he lacked was the title. Mary wouldn't be giving up a career as a surgeon - she would have been the wife of an up and comer, not an established peer... ie she's going to be a *wife* regardless, its all about attaining the best possible wife position.

 

The more interesting question, given that Mary was ambitious, was why she was so turned off by the idea of getting everything she wanted. I mean, "Eww, Matthew is middle class" only works so long. Though, I suppose Matthew might have sensed it if she went after him in a purely mercenary fashion...

[DeccaMitford]

I think it's certainly true that Mary is ambitious, and that her "career," so to speak, for much of the show has been to get the best position possible for herself through marriage. However, I see it as sort of a sad aspect of Mary that this is the case: she's a woman who's very real talents are being squandered on fairly petty and shallow concerns. It's not that she's necessarily shallow, it's that she spent so much time wasting herself and her intellect on a life that even she used to admit she found stifling and unfulfilling. It's only in the last few seasons of the show/years of Mary's life that she found her calling managing the estate, and she was only able to do that because the opportunity was given to her as a result of Matthew's death.

 

A Mary born just a generation later could have ended up in Parliament, or become a high powered executive, or a hundred other things that centered her ambition on herself rather than on a man. Mary's ambition, to me, is the saddest thing about her: all she has to show for it now is an estate in Yorkshire that's rapidly turning into a museum around her. If she had been given an education and the support a man would have been, imagine how much richer her life would be. Or even if when confronted with the prospect of marriage to Matthew with no title to come, she set her mind to it that he would end up Lord Chancellor if it was the last thing she did. Mary would have made a hell of a political wife.

[Andorra]

Here's what Julian Fellows writes about the situation in his scriptbook. I thought it was interesting:

 

 

The key to Mary is that, despite her superficial snobbery, she has true emotions and one of them is ambition. She loves Matthew for being Matthew, but she also likes the fact that he will give her a position from which she can do things. As the Countess of Grantham, she can lend her social muscle to this interest and that charity, she can entertain the county, she can promote a political candidate, a painter, a new novelist, she can have a life. But for women of her class, because of the way the system was loaded, if their husband did not provide them with a podium, it was incredibly difficult for them to have any kind of career. Even though she's an earl's daughter, as the wife of a lawyer, she would be unlikely to be a major player. She would get invited to things and she'd go to them, but she wouldn't be a power. And she wants to be a power. She feels she could acquit herself well. 

 

To Mary wanting to tell Matthew about Pamuk:

 

This statement, that Mary is determined to tell Matthew about Pamuk, for me defines her as a sympathetic character because I suspect that most women wouldn't feel the same, especially then. The simple truth that she is only perpared to enter the state of marriage honestly and without deception means we cannot dislike her. I think, anyway. 

 

 

 

To Mary and Matthew breaking up at the end of series 1:

 

 

In writing this storyline, I never disliked Mary for being troubled by what she had promised. She had accepted a man who was going to give her everything, but now it may all be lost. She knows she will be judged harshly for not wanting to go on with it, but not by me. Personally, I think it would have been more reasonable of Matthew to suggest adjourning the discussion of marriage until the child is born. If he'd done that, she probably would have married him anyway. So I'm sympathetic to Mary even though she's made a mistake, which turns out a big mistake. I can see her point of view. 

[Roseanna]

Andorra, thank you for citations.

Trouble is that JF never showed anything of those things that Mary according to him wanted to do: no painters, no charities, no political campaigns (except in connection of Sybil).

[Tetraneutron]

Because Mary never wanted a specific thing ,or to fight for a cause. That was Sybil. Mary wanted to be the top dog. In those days, the only way to do that was to marry a powerful man. That meant old money and lots of it. Think of politicians. A few run for office because they have a specific cause they feel passionate about. Most do it for the power and prestige. That's Mary. 

 

The same way neither she nor Matthew ever thought he'd actually be Lord Chancellor or anything similar. He wasn't some rising political star. That's why it was an actual conflict when Cora was pregnant. Because she would have to give up something for love. She'd have to settle for being the wife of a country solicitor. And that would be, frankly, a huge step down when she had plenty of rich and titled men willing to marry her. 

[Andorra]

Trouble is that JF never showed anything of those things that Mary according to him wanted to do: no painters, no charities, no political campaigns (except in connection of Sybil).

 

That's true, but I learned, that I can't enjoy the show without taking Julian Fellows intention as the truth instead of taking what he shows as the truth. There're just too many storylines that don't make any sense. For example the Pamuk story. I still think it was written in a problematic way and de facto as rape. Mary didn't invite him to her room, she rebuffed him earlier when he tried to kiss her, she repeatedly told him to leave and said "no" until she practically was pressed onto the matress. 

 

I know though, that Julian Fellows meant it as seduction. He didn't want Mary to be too easy to get, so he let her protest. I may cringe at the "a woman who says no really means yes"  picture he paints here, but if I don't accept the incident as seduction, Mary's whole behavior afterwards doesn't fit. She calls him her "lover", she tells Cora he didn't "force" her, she calls it "lust" when she confesses it to Matthew. 

 

So I have just resigned to accept Fellows' view of it, because otherwise it doesn't work and this is the case for many storylines, the latest being the Henry/Mary romance. I hate it and I thought it completely unconvincing and badly written, but I accept that Julian Fellows sees it as totally romantic and a HEA. He never showed it on screen, but his intention is clear IMO. 

 

The same can be said for his characters. We never really see on screen that Mary is so much more proactive than Edith, but that's what Julian Fellows says about them. Mary is the active one who gets things done, Edith is the one who is passive and does what she is told. I can see the latter more than the first, because where do we really see Mary taking active steps for her future? 

[Roseanna]

Andorra, I can't give any favors that I don't give other writers. It's a general rule: intention doesn't mena anything, what matters is what *we* as readers and watchers see. Especially a script or a play isn't the thing - it's the play only when it's played and the film and or series only when it is shown.

Tetraneutron, in the end of S1 Mary had lost her chances to have rich and titled suitors (Violet and Cora thought so). The choice was only between Strallan, some Italian aristocrat (as Violet and Cora agreed) or Matthew and love even without title and position. Even Carlisle came later as well as Robert's suggestion to go to America.

[Roseanna]

Andorra, I can't give any favors that I don't give other writers. It's a general rule: intention doesn't mena anything, what matters is what *we* as readers and watchers see. Especially a script or a play isn't the thing - it's the play only when it's played and the film and or series only when it is shown.

Tetraneutron, in the end of S1 Mary had lost her chances to have rich and titled suitors (Violet and Cora thought so). The choice was only between Strallan, some Italian aristocrat (as Violet and Cora agreed) or Matthew and love even without title and position. Even Carlisle came later as well as Robert's suggestion to go to America.